April 17, 2020 • 32 mins
Author and writer, David Owen, joins Geoff Shackelford in the fourth episode of The Shack Show to discuss the news that Marion Hollins will be inducted into the 2021 Hall of Fame. David also shares what he thinks golf will be like when it returns and how odd it was not to have a Masters in April.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
One of the things I hope to do with The
Shack Show is to react to news, to analyze something
(00:20):
that goes on in the world. And while we don't
have a whole lot of that happening in the world
of golf right now, we did receive, uh, the exciting
word that Marion Hollins. And this is exciting, by the way,
for US historians and lovers of the game. A lot
of you probably don't know who Marion Islands is, but
she's in the World Golf Hall of Fame. She will
be inducted in the class that has already been announced
(00:41):
to include Tiger Woods, likely to have some other pretty
big names, and she is just an incredible figure. Obviously.
I got acquainted with her place in the game of
golf doing a book on Cyprus Point and also in
researching everything about the Masters, and a lot of that
research that I learned and and and really the thing
(01:01):
I believe that kind of put her over the top
for the Hall of Fame came from the work of
David Owen, who wrote The Making of the Masters, which
is a definitive account of the creation of the tournament.
And the Club. It's an incredible book. It's incredible what
he was able to share in that book. And I
am very pleased to be joined by him now. And
(01:21):
and David, I guess the thing I want to know
first of all is did you know anything about Marion
Hollins when you began this project of researching the book? No.
I knew nothing about her. And it was while doing
research on the making of the Masters I came across
her name and some old correspondence and and just started
looking around and uh, everyfore I looked, Uh there was
(01:45):
something even more interesting. And she she had this amazing uh,
an amazing life. She was a terrific amateur player. She
won the the Women's Amateur when she was twenty eight,
I think, and she had come in she'd been to
runner up a few years before that. And uh then
when she had, you know, all these crazy things, like
(02:05):
she raced cars sometimes, she had the only she was
the only woman in the United States with the men's
polo handicap. Uh. And she had this um you know,
she loved golf and in the nineties she founded the
club on Long Island called Women's National Golf and Tennis Club.
The men at a nearby country club on Long Island
(02:28):
that apparently got tired of playing with their wives, and
they threw him out of the club. And so a
group of those wives and other wealthy women, led by Hollands,
created their own, their own club. And they are you
know this? It was nice. It was Stanford White designed
(02:49):
the clubhouse and or redesigned it. And UH the uh
either seth Reigner devor I wand designed the course and
it was with help from Holland. Then it was it
was meant to be uh a friendly course for women.
Men were allowed to play there, but only as guests.
(03:10):
And UH. One of the many interesting things that she did.
She the head pro at Women's National was Ernest Jones,
whom she had met in in in England. And Jones
was his most famous book is Swing the Club had
He had lost a leg in the First World War
and it made him rethink the golf swing. And UH
(03:32):
decided that the all the sort of body stuff wasn't important,
that what she had to do was swing. You swing it.
You have to swing the club. And he would demonstrate
that by tying his pocket knife to a to a
pocket handkerchief and swinging it back and forth, and um,
he had a he had a huge impact on golf
construction and was she you know, uh, as far as
(03:56):
Americans are concerned, Hollands had discovered him. She also discovered
Alister Mackenzie. Probably the She was hired by Samuel left B.
Morris who had bought this huge property on the Monterey
Peninsula and uh, she was helped him develop it. And
you know it's the piece of property that has what's
(04:18):
now Pebble Beach Golf Club on it. And um, the
the property that she took part took charge of. Seth
Rayner had been had been hired to design the course
and then he died and so um Hollins replaced him
with Alister Mackenzie. And that's the Cyprus Point Club. Uh.
And she's Mackenzie credited her with the most famous uh
(04:41):
well on that course. Uh you know, the part three
where you have to hit your t shot two hundred
yards over you know, from cliff to cliff over the water.
Rayner thought that it was an impossible shot. Allins disagreed.
She kat up a ball and hit it successfully to
the other side, and uh, you know it's one of
the great holes in golf Mackenzie. Um. Uh. Mackenzie credited
(05:06):
her with with its design, and uh she when Bobby
Jones he was expected to he was expected to win
the US Amateur. He was winning everything at that point,
and he was the medalist in the qualifier. But then
he was beaten in the first round unexpectedly by the
last qualifier, Johnny Goodman, and so he was in California
(05:28):
with nothing to do. He uh he played around at
um at Cyprus, which had opened the year before. He'd
never seen it before, and he loved it. And then
Allins invited him to play with her in an exhibition
match at Pasta Tiempo, another club that she had founded,
uh near Santa Cruz, and he did and he he
(05:50):
loved it. And while they played, Mackenzie, who had designed
the course, walked along with them, and that was sort
of that was how uh you know, Jones and Clifford
Roberts were just at that point talking about uh. They
were beginning big to think about building a golf club
someplace in the South, and the obvious choice for the
(06:12):
architect would have been Donald Ross, who expected to get
that commission. I believe he was considered. You found that
I'm trying to remember. I think that's true, and he was,
you know, it's just like he would be. He would
be on anybody's list. And and I read you never
know what to think about these things that he was.
You read that he was disappointed later that he hadn't been.
(06:33):
But at any rate, from that point forward, you know,
Mackenzie was not as well known then as he is now.
He noted a couple of courses in England and he was,
but he was basically a newcomer until Jones, you know,
in a very short period of time, played these two
courses and they are there. You know, Cyprus is incomparable
and Possi Tempa was terrific. Passi Tempa also had a
(06:55):
number of features that appealed to both Jones and Roberts.
Initially in had Uh, it had riding trails, it had
tennis courts with clay imported from France. It had there
was a beach club, there was you know, it's just
and it was a real estate development, which is not
something that happened today. Hollands had hired Omestep Brothers, the
(07:16):
landscape architects, to create a development plan, and they were
building lots all around the course, one of which Mackenzie
built a house on. So all of these ideas in
the original plan for Augusta National, they were all there.
Jones and Roberts hired Mackenzie Omestep Brothers to make the
development plan. Uh. The initially they were going to build
(07:38):
two golf courses, one for men and one for women.
It was gonna be a huge new clubhouse. They were
gonna be riding trails and tennis courts, all these things that, um,
they were very close copies of what Hollands had done
at Pasa Tampo. And they were going to be homes
around the rim. Right, oh yeah, right, right yeah, Olmstep Brothers.
(07:59):
There was a map, you know. And this is the
thing that people never believe. You could for very little
money you could have bought you know, not only not
only could have joined the club for three fifty dollars
and dues of sixty dollars a year or whatever it was,
but you could have bought a good sized building lot
overlooking you know, the tenth fairway all around the course
(08:23):
and there and all the time only one there was
only one buyer. It was a member who bought three
lots beyond the first just beyond the first Green, and
he built a huge house back there that was there
until the when the club finally got it back and
tore it down. And the last thing Clifford Roberts did
before he took his own life was to be led
by a waiter out onto the first teeth so he
(08:44):
could look up the first fairway and assure himself that
the that the old the old Harrison house has been
torn down, which by then it had. But you show
people a picture of h of the first green is
the big house right behind it. And robertson his book
made it sound as though, well, we thought we might
(09:06):
all building lots around the course, but we changed our minds.
But they tried really hard for twenty years to sell
those lots. They were gonna nobody wanted to buy them,
and they considered leasing them in the in the early
nine after the war, they actually they cut. They decided
to try to make a kind of a middle class
(09:27):
suburban residential development where basically where the Part three courses
today they cut, you know, they cut rough roads. They
had lots marked and everything like that. They showed at
the local real estate agents. Nobody wanted. There was one
one local real estate guy made them sort of a
low ball offer. Roberts sounded insulting. And then by then,
(09:49):
in the early nineteen fifties, so they've been trying for
twenty years to sell building lots. But by then, in
the nineteen fifties, the depression was over, the war was over,
the economy was rebounding in, the club was in really
for the first time, in decent financial shape, and they
didn't need to um sell real estate, so they stopped. Okay,
we're gonna take a quick break on the Shack Show,
(10:09):
and then we're going to get to the part where
I think you helped put Maryan Hollins over the top
in terms of being in the World Golf Hall of Fame.
(10:33):
All Right, we're back, uh, David. In your book The
Making of the Masters, the final piece I think too,
sort of the merry and story and and even though
everything you've just laid out makes her worthy of being
in the World Golf Hall of Fame already, um in
your research you found that um Dr Mackenzie sent her
(10:57):
and Louis himself at some point during the construction. Now
he was there quite a bit during the construction, but
he was having trouble getting paid. And as I read
it in your book, Uh, part part of the reason,
he said Hollins was, uh, he didn't want to go,
and part of it was because he trusted her and
(11:17):
because she had already had such an influence on the
on the building of Augusta National. Yeah, it's true. You know,
McKinney's original seat was I think it was ten thousand
dollars and cut act to five. But he never got
even that. I mean, I don't know what. I don't
know what they paid him. He couldn't afford to go,
and he would write these begging letters practically to Robert's.
(11:37):
You know, I'm I'm reduced to playing golf with one
club in a Woolworths ball, this kind of thing. That
is and his wife were gathering firewood around their house
to try to keep body and sold together. And he
didn't have any money and the club didn't have any money.
I mean, you look at the old account books. They
owed money to everybody and in still in you know,
(11:58):
nothe thirty four when the first tournament was held. That
was really nice program and through all these advertisements in it,
and all the advertisers were people that the club owed
money to you know, the people put in the irrigation system,
you know, the people they bought dirt from, the people
that bought fan from. It was just it looks like
this is a going enterprise. In fact it was these
were just all their debtors. So the club didn't have
(12:18):
any money. They couldn't pay him. At one point, he
mackenzie wanted wanted some you know, some I know, some
kind of uh cheesy notes that he would then try
to sell it a discount, some loan and Hollans helped
him with that, and he got a bit of money
from that. But anyway, Hollans at that point she was
rolling in it. She discovered oil. She the money that
(12:41):
she put into her fortune that she spent on pasta tampo.
She you know, she had she had money. So she
came and looked. Roberts was upset, not because of her, necessarily,
but because he wanted, uh, he wanted Mackenzie there. Mackenzie.
You know, mckenn you never saw the course finished. He never,
(13:01):
he never, He was never there again. And but anyway,
Hollands reported, but she liked it a lot. She contributes
to the design. But she assured Mackenzie that his ideas
were being carried through. So, David, the last thing I
wanted to ask you about related to Marian and Augusta
and Clifford Roberts was I think the thing that we
we lose a little bit in and thinking about this,
(13:25):
or we we we easily forget, is that she was
a woman doing this at a time, really telling a
lot of men with pretty big egos how to do something,
how to get it done, how to how to finish
her project. And then I think what your research did
was bring together what she did as a visionary, as
a producer, and bringing all these great minds together. Is
(13:49):
that something in your research of Augusta you sensed was
difficult for Clifford Roberts. I don't think it was for
Bobby Jones, right, yeah, you know, I I don't know
they both. Uh. I think her main contribution to Augusta National,
I mean, her real contribution to Augustin National was she
created the template that they followed us. The tampo was
(14:10):
was what they wanted when they started out, that was
what they wanted. They used the people that she had used,
so they didn't have any they didn't hesitate to, you know,
to follow the example of a woman. When she actually
came on site, it was a pretty mind you know,
nobody was there. Roberts wasn't there. Uh, Jones wasn't there,
and she was just basically looking at it and assuring
(14:33):
Mackenzie the things were going according to plan. Uh. Roberts
at that point he wanted, he wanted Mackenzie to be
there taking part in it. Uh. So he I don't
I'm not sure how he felt about, uh, you know,
taking or taking counsel from a woman. And I also
don't know how much she actually she actually told him.
(14:53):
I think mainly what she said was it's good, you know,
it's a she she gave her seal of approval. U.
But she was you know, but it was the the Uh.
There are two things that are interesting. Women's National did
really did find through the Great Depression. UH and UH
Posit possit Tampa is sort of um and much better.
(15:18):
They did much better than um. Uh then Augusta National
did initially, but it's Augustin National that survived pasta. Tampa
ended up. Um, you know, it went into receivership or
it was, and Women's National when the war came along,
the women basically decided that they they didn't want to
keep it going and uh it was it was augusta
(15:40):
National that that persisted with this kind of um, I
don't know, stubborn determination to survive. He's amazing, Uh setbacks
and uh part of it is at Hollands in the
end of her career, she had this automobile accident. She
died young she um Uh she so this sort of
(16:03):
powerful personality that she was was it ceased to be there.
And these projects of hers, this incredible plasit GAMP was
an incredibly ambitious project. Uh and uh, you know, the
war killed it in um the but I think that
the the what's interesting is that is partly that she
(16:24):
did she's unique. You know, think who who is the
ah name another woman who had this kind of a visionary,
successful golf course development um record. And it may just
be that, as with Women's National, when when times got
(16:47):
really tough, the women, you know, the women who were
the members of it, who were running it, decided it
wasn't worth it to keep going. And it wasn't this
kind of uh insane men's commitment to keeping a golf
course alive. Uh. But because she was, she was she
wasn't really herself. I think at the end of at
the end of her current she died. She was like
fifty one died. Uh. So, Um, we didn't get the
(17:11):
full We didn't get the full Mary in Hollands. But boy,
when she was when she was active, she was she
was remarkable, Um the in all these different fields, and
she was a great athlete. And then she was Um
she you know pasta Tampa was was a the movie
stars all hung out there. It was the idea of
(17:32):
of golf surrounded by a real estate development was not
that was new and uh and uh. The she brought
Ernest Jones to the United States and she then she
basically discovered Ali from mackenzie. Those are any one of
those is a major contribution to to the history of
golf and they all came from her. Yeah, there's been
(17:52):
very few real superstar developers and then I Mike, we
have Mike Kaiser's day, but there there haven't been many
who really understood how to bring all these different people
together and and trust them and use their visions. So
that impact on Augustin National is profound. And obviously in
the places that that she's left behind because so few
(18:13):
people even know that Cyprus Point and plots of Tempo
were real estate developments. They're so well done that you
you don't think about it in the way you think
about it when you go somewhere else. You mentioned the
war in your book The Making of the Masters. You
covered quite a bit about Augustin National during the war years.
They lost three masters, uh during that time, and we
(18:34):
obviously are now in a holding pattern with the possibility
of a November playing. Did anything about last week and
not having a master's and your your time going through
the archives in those warriors strike you as as interesting
in these bizarre times, Yeah, it was really it was
really weird. Um, the not having a master's because you know,
(18:57):
if you're a golfer's so much of how you oh yeah,
it's how you know it's spring and exactly then it's
a part of it. And I also, I found this,
I found this thing that I hadn't necessarily been expecting.
I didn't really enjoy watching replace of old tournaments. It's interesting.
It just made me feel kind of sad that the
room wasn't on and uh So I watched a little bit,
but but not a whole lot. And it feels a
(19:19):
little different now to where you know, in the war
it was. It was a war. You had the things
we stopped. Bobby Jones said, this what turned out to
be a terrible idea, but the idea of will contribute
to the war effort by grazing cattle on our golf course.
And uh, the it turns out the cattle really like
to eat as alias and they leave. They left these
(19:40):
huge green, bright green spots all over the golf course
from the cow pies landed that these intermittently fertile, fertilized fairways.
So that that was that was a disaster. But you know,
when they you think about what what it was like
then from economic point of view, it's probably similar to
what it is now. They it had just scraped through
(20:01):
the Great Depression. One thing people don't realize this. The
first Masters, when it was the Augusta National Invitation tournament,
it got a lot of headlines because Bobby Jones is
going to return to competitive golf. After that, there wasn't
a lot of easy ways to sell it in the
field was small to begin with, and its shrank steadily
through the thirties. It was like, you know, it was
(20:21):
smaller than my club's member guests by by the late
nineteen thirties. It just started to turn around at the
end of the thirties, and then the war came along
and it had to shut down completely, and there was
no certainty when they did that they'd ever opened up again,
or that the tournament would ever be held again. So, uh,
(20:43):
the I think that, I think that now. I mean
we're talking about November. We're not talking about three years
from now. Uh, it doesn't seem it doesn't seem quite
the same. I've also found I've getting a lot more done,
uh now that I'm not playing golf. I've played nine
holes a few times. But uh, you know, and I'd
(21:04):
really like to go back. One of the nice things
about it is that there's no cards. My club is
still open sort of, but there's no carts. The golf
shop is closed, no guests are allowed. So if you go,
it's pretty nice. You know, it's it's just a handful
of people out walking around, staying far away from each other,
and um, it's really pretty pleasant. We would not be
(21:26):
able to afford to You mentioned Mike Kaiser a minute ago,
and I think he's a pretty good analog. And it's
the same kind of visionary. Uh, each of the they
had different ideas of what of what they were doing,
but both of them had an impact on golf have
had you know, Kaiser has definitely had an impact on
golf and and Hollans did. Hollands is more invisible, but
(21:49):
she was in her scope was smaller, but still you know,
it was a she was a big deal. Oh yeah, yeah.
And that's what I think is wonderful about this Hall
of Fame in duction. And it took a long time,
and it took all these little bits and pieces to
be understood, and just this greater awareness of golf course
design and and design of all other elements of of
(22:11):
an experience that you enjoy when you go to these places.
And it's just a more of an awakening of of
of the impact that somebody can have besides being a
great golfer. She she just got people thinking a lot
of different ways. And um, it's it's it's a so
it's it's to me, it's a wonderful induction and announcement
(22:32):
just on that that notion alone, that there's more to
the game than just people playing the game. Well, that
there were people who were dreaming and envisioning other things.
So you you have written uh, I believe it's eleven books,
uh things, It's probably it's a lot, Okay. And you
and and one of them obviously have some golf books
(22:53):
besides making the Masters my usual game. And you did
a book on tiger woods. Uh. And you did a
compilation of essays that I love, Lord of the Links.
But but recently you've you've done a few things on
water and a book on you called Green Metropolis. Why
living smaller, living closer, driving lesser keys to sustainability. Um.
(23:15):
You touched on the changes to your golf experience and
in in a few times you've played recently. Where do
you and I know this is a big question, but
but do you see major changes to the game coming
out of this? What? What? What do you anticipate? Nobody
knows what the world is gonna look like a year
(23:35):
from now, two years from now. Uh. I think we're
talking about this with a friend so and I think
it will be different. I think that think lots of
things will be different. It would I've often thought, just
in terms of for environmental reasons, golf could be Golf
would still be fun if it were less Um, over
(23:59):
the top than it is now, and you think that
more the way it is and the British Isles, or
has been in the British Isles, where you know, they
have advantages that we don't. The game arose there so
and it arose to be played in the conditions that
exist there, so they don't have to do the same
kind of golf golf course maintenance that we do to
to to create a surface on which you can play golf.
(24:21):
But you can play golf on it. You can play
golf and have a great time doing it on surfaces
that don't look like carpet. And I think that maybe
the we will for a variety of reasons. They'll be
economic reasons, they'll be environmental reasons, they'll be maybe they'll
be uh, health reasons why golf can be um the
(24:46):
way I like it better, Not everybody does, But there's
a kind of scaled scale down, more more casual, more
a little rough around the rougher around the edges. I
don't think that would be a bad thing. And one
of the things that I've liked the best about uh,
you know, one of my favorite golf types assignments I
had ever was I went to Scotland, and uh, rented
(25:06):
a car and had my golf clubs and I didn't play.
I played only courses that I'd never heard of before.
And I remember that was a great piece. It was
really fun. And I would go someplace and I would play,
and then I would say, Okay, where should I go next?
And go, oh, we're only twelve miles from uh, you know, Karnystie.
And no, no, no, I don't want to play Karnystie.
Tell me We're tell me someplace I've never heard of before.
We go, oh, okay, you know you should go here.
(25:28):
And the golf that way where it's not you're not
paying for your round and you don't have all this
sort of riggingmarroll around it and vast clubhouses and all
this kind of stuff. Uh. The little golf course that
I belonged to in my town. I think that the
secret of its successes. We don't have a restaurant. It
(25:50):
has a it has a it has a grill, uh
you know, like a you know, a barbecue grill on
a little patio, and it has a kitchen, but it's
like a kitchen in your house, and there's no It
just makes it it's it's just a golf club, and
that's to me that's incredibly appealing that you know, there
are people who who hate that and they wish that
(26:10):
they had, you know, all kinds of other activities along
with it. But you know, that's that's a scale, scaled
down roll of golf would be U. I would not
have a problem with. Yeah, the sense that the sports
the sport will be appreciated a bit more, either by
the people who are in some form attached to it
(26:30):
as a as a as a golfer a lot of
them not able to play now, or or restricted and
missing it, but also as just a great form of
recreation that you can distance and get exercise and be outdoors.
Do you do you do you see that possibility or
do you think some of the excesses that have uh
(26:51):
tainted people's views of the sport will will still be
there or or maybe even made worse by this. I
don't know. Yeah, people don't human nature, it tends to
be pretty durable. I've always made a joke so you
might like most golf clubs. My golf club, the average
age has been rising, and I said, no one one
tough flue season and we would be in serious trouble.
(27:14):
Um and you know here we have that kind of thing.
So I, you know, it'll be interesting to see how,
uh what comes back. And it's not like even like
two thousand and eight, where you kind of felt that
there was I where the unemployment rate was a fraction
of what it is right now and where you felt, Okay,
(27:34):
you know there's this horrible thing. In a year or two,
things will be then won't be back to where they were,
but they'll be on the mend, and people things go on,
and people forget that there was this. You know, they
forgot about seven You forget about you kind of move on.
This seems like it has at least the potential to
to change a lot of things permanently. Um My, my
(27:55):
my friends and I had seven friends and I we
were going to be going to Wales in where we're
going like in a couple of weeks to play to
play golf in Whales for ten days, and that trip
we've we've moved it to October. And when we did
this is in I don't know, not too far into March.
And one of the guys said, you really don't think
(28:17):
we'll be going in May? And then like one day later,
everybody was like, do you think October is far enough away?
So you know, every day it seems it's still changes
like that, and and the who knows what what people
will be thinking about traveling abroad to play golf the
or if there will even be any flights, or if
(28:40):
people think, you know, there's a risk that I go
to the uk uh if I catch it there and
I have to stay there for I have to be
treated there after, or if I'm suspected I have to
stay there in quarantine for two weeks. I think they're
they're all these question marks. And there's you think of
how much of the kind of golfing for structure that
we depend on, the tour groups that the tour companies,
(29:02):
the golf course maintenance crews are, how many people will
be willing to keep paying their dues through hum through
a crisis like this. Let's say my club, you have
to pay all your dues up front. And the deadline
was like right before Connecticut shut down, so everybody everybody
was already in. But you know there's so many committees
(29:23):
I'm glad I'm not on, and one of them is
I'm glad I'm out of the board of governors at
the club, and I'm uh, the so many people we
were having to make decisions based on not a whole
lot of solid information. Why Whales? May I just ask
from a golf point of view, Not that I don't
mean that as an indictment on Whales, because I've never
played some of the courses there and some of them
(29:44):
looking incredible. I'm just just as a golfer, I'm curious
how you guys picked that. We've been everywhere else and uh,
there's a Then there are all these lessening pictures, you know,
there are all these links courses up to the up
the coast and uh, and it's less expensive. We thought,
you know, they're not. They're not going to be as
many people. One thing, that's one thing that it was
(30:04):
not why why we did it? But it turns out
if you have to reschedule a trip, Wales is a
lot easier than the old course. Uh. The people who
are really sweating are the ones who put down a
huge amount of money for packages, uh at Saint Andrew's
or at the fancy places, and who knows what's going
to happen to them with us. I think that they'll
(30:28):
be glad to see us whenever we show up. I
kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely, well, I will poke around
the internet for that story. I I remember it well,
and I don't know if it's still online anywhere. Um,
it's like, you know, you'll find it out if you
go to my website. Okay, perfect, The to my usual
game dot com may be on the other one too.
(30:48):
I think that I think you'll find it there. Well,
it was back back road Scotland. I think it was
back road Scotland. Okay, great, well, David, thank you so
much for this impromptu conversation to discuss uh this this
lovely news about Marian Hollins and and uh I hope
you stay safe and get to play some golf soon
under safe conditions there in Connecticut. Yeah, same to you, exactly.
(31:13):
We'll play together. Sometimes we'll play over zoom or something
like that. Thank you, David. Okay, thank you, Jeff, Hey,
quick break here, let's hear from our sponsors. I will
put together some notes from this conversation with David. I
(31:34):
hope you enjoy them at Jeff shackle for dot com.
I already have a post up about Marian with some
some links if you want to kind of go back
in time and imagine what that was like, and I
learn a little bit more about Augusta. I don't think
it's ever the wrong time to be thinking about the
Masters and the creation of that place. It's always fascinating conversation.
I hope you enjoyed it. Uh. He is a an
(31:57):
incredible writer. If you you don't recall his work, I
will have some links up that PC wrote about lesser
named less famous golf courses was I think one of those,
along with a couple others. Some books like Michael Bamberger's
book to the Links Land and Laura rumen Scene's book
on Dornick that got people thinking you could you could
(32:18):
play golf in Scotland and have a great time, even
if it wasn't a very famous place. And I certainly
endorse there are so so many fun links. I hope
he gets to make that trip to Wales. As always,
I want to thank the show's producer, Tim Parrotica for
editing this together. And just a reminder of the Shack shows,
the production of I Heart Radio and as you know,
(32:38):
for more podcasts from my heart, visit the I Heart
Radio apps. The super app gives you great notifications or
of course, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. We'll be back soon with another episode of
The Shack Show.
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
One of the things I hope to do with The
Shack Show is to react to news, to analyze something
(00:20):
that goes on in the world. And while we don't
have a whole lot of that happening in the world
of golf right now, we did receive, uh, the exciting
word that Marion Hollins. And this is exciting, by the way,
for US historians and lovers of the game. A lot
of you probably don't know who Marion Islands is, but
she's in the World Golf Hall of Fame. She will
be inducted in the class that has already been announced
(00:41):
to include Tiger Woods, likely to have some other pretty
big names, and she is just an incredible figure. Obviously.
I got acquainted with her place in the game of
golf doing a book on Cyprus Point and also in
researching everything about the Masters, and a lot of that
research that I learned and and and really the thing
(01:01):
I believe that kind of put her over the top
for the Hall of Fame came from the work of
David Owen, who wrote The Making of the Masters, which
is a definitive account of the creation of the tournament.
And the Club. It's an incredible book. It's incredible what
he was able to share in that book. And I
am very pleased to be joined by him now. And
(01:21):
and David, I guess the thing I want to know
first of all is did you know anything about Marion
Hollins when you began this project of researching the book? No.
I knew nothing about her. And it was while doing
research on the making of the Masters I came across
her name and some old correspondence and and just started
looking around and uh, everyfore I looked, Uh there was
(01:45):
something even more interesting. And she she had this amazing uh,
an amazing life. She was a terrific amateur player. She
won the the Women's Amateur when she was twenty eight,
I think, and she had come in she'd been to
runner up a few years before that. And uh then
when she had, you know, all these crazy things, like
(02:05):
she raced cars sometimes, she had the only she was
the only woman in the United States with the men's
polo handicap. Uh. And she had this um you know,
she loved golf and in the nineties she founded the
club on Long Island called Women's National Golf and Tennis Club.
The men at a nearby country club on Long Island
(02:28):
that apparently got tired of playing with their wives, and
they threw him out of the club. And so a
group of those wives and other wealthy women, led by Hollands,
created their own, their own club. And they are you
know this? It was nice. It was Stanford White designed
(02:49):
the clubhouse and or redesigned it. And UH the uh
either seth Reigner devor I wand designed the course and
it was with help from Holland. Then it was it
was meant to be uh a friendly course for women.
Men were allowed to play there, but only as guests.
(03:10):
And UH. One of the many interesting things that she did.
She the head pro at Women's National was Ernest Jones,
whom she had met in in in England. And Jones
was his most famous book is Swing the Club had
He had lost a leg in the First World War
and it made him rethink the golf swing. And UH
(03:32):
decided that the all the sort of body stuff wasn't important,
that what she had to do was swing. You swing it.
You have to swing the club. And he would demonstrate
that by tying his pocket knife to a to a
pocket handkerchief and swinging it back and forth, and um,
he had a he had a huge impact on golf
construction and was she you know, uh, as far as
(03:56):
Americans are concerned, Hollands had discovered him. She also discovered
Alister Mackenzie. Probably the She was hired by Samuel left B.
Morris who had bought this huge property on the Monterey
Peninsula and uh, she was helped him develop it. And
you know it's the piece of property that has what's
(04:18):
now Pebble Beach Golf Club on it. And um, the
the property that she took part took charge of. Seth
Rayner had been had been hired to design the course
and then he died and so um Hollins replaced him
with Alister Mackenzie. And that's the Cyprus Point Club. Uh.
And she's Mackenzie credited her with the most famous uh
(04:41):
well on that course. Uh you know, the part three
where you have to hit your t shot two hundred
yards over you know, from cliff to cliff over the water.
Rayner thought that it was an impossible shot. Allins disagreed.
She kat up a ball and hit it successfully to
the other side, and uh, you know it's one of
the great holes in golf Mackenzie. Um. Uh. Mackenzie credited
(05:06):
her with with its design, and uh she when Bobby
Jones he was expected to he was expected to win
the US Amateur. He was winning everything at that point,
and he was the medalist in the qualifier. But then
he was beaten in the first round unexpectedly by the
last qualifier, Johnny Goodman, and so he was in California
(05:28):
with nothing to do. He uh he played around at
um at Cyprus, which had opened the year before. He'd
never seen it before, and he loved it. And then
Allins invited him to play with her in an exhibition
match at Pasta Tiempo, another club that she had founded,
uh near Santa Cruz, and he did and he he
(05:50):
loved it. And while they played, Mackenzie, who had designed
the course, walked along with them, and that was sort
of that was how uh you know, Jones and Clifford
Roberts were just at that point talking about uh. They
were beginning big to think about building a golf club
someplace in the South, and the obvious choice for the
(06:12):
architect would have been Donald Ross, who expected to get
that commission. I believe he was considered. You found that
I'm trying to remember. I think that's true, and he was,
you know, it's just like he would be. He would
be on anybody's list. And and I read you never
know what to think about these things that he was.
You read that he was disappointed later that he hadn't been.
(06:33):
But at any rate, from that point forward, you know,
Mackenzie was not as well known then as he is now.
He noted a couple of courses in England and he was,
but he was basically a newcomer until Jones, you know,
in a very short period of time, played these two
courses and they are there. You know, Cyprus is incomparable
and Possi Tempa was terrific. Passi Tempa also had a
(06:55):
number of features that appealed to both Jones and Roberts.
Initially in had Uh, it had riding trails, it had
tennis courts with clay imported from France. It had there
was a beach club, there was you know, it's just
and it was a real estate development, which is not
something that happened today. Hollands had hired Omestep Brothers, the
(07:16):
landscape architects, to create a development plan, and they were
building lots all around the course, one of which Mackenzie
built a house on. So all of these ideas in
the original plan for Augusta National, they were all there.
Jones and Roberts hired Mackenzie Omestep Brothers to make the
development plan. Uh. The initially they were going to build
(07:38):
two golf courses, one for men and one for women.
It was gonna be a huge new clubhouse. They were
gonna be riding trails and tennis courts, all these things that, um,
they were very close copies of what Hollands had done
at Pasa Tampo. And they were going to be homes
around the rim. Right, oh yeah, right, right yeah, Olmstep Brothers.
(07:59):
There was a map, you know. And this is the
thing that people never believe. You could for very little
money you could have bought you know, not only not
only could have joined the club for three fifty dollars
and dues of sixty dollars a year or whatever it was,
but you could have bought a good sized building lot
overlooking you know, the tenth fairway all around the course
(08:23):
and there and all the time only one there was
only one buyer. It was a member who bought three
lots beyond the first just beyond the first Green, and
he built a huge house back there that was there
until the when the club finally got it back and
tore it down. And the last thing Clifford Roberts did
before he took his own life was to be led
by a waiter out onto the first teeth so he
(08:44):
could look up the first fairway and assure himself that
the that the old the old Harrison house has been
torn down, which by then it had. But you show
people a picture of h of the first green is
the big house right behind it. And robertson his book
made it sound as though, well, we thought we might
(09:06):
all building lots around the course, but we changed our minds.
But they tried really hard for twenty years to sell
those lots. They were gonna nobody wanted to buy them,
and they considered leasing them in the in the early
nine after the war, they actually they cut. They decided
to try to make a kind of a middle class
(09:27):
suburban residential development where basically where the Part three courses
today they cut, you know, they cut rough roads. They
had lots marked and everything like that. They showed at
the local real estate agents. Nobody wanted. There was one
one local real estate guy made them sort of a
low ball offer. Roberts sounded insulting. And then by then,
(09:49):
in the early nineteen fifties, so they've been trying for
twenty years to sell building lots. But by then, in
the nineteen fifties, the depression was over, the war was over,
the economy was rebounding in, the club was in really
for the first time, in decent financial shape, and they
didn't need to um sell real estate, so they stopped. Okay,
we're gonna take a quick break on the Shack Show,
(10:09):
and then we're going to get to the part where
I think you helped put Maryan Hollins over the top
in terms of being in the World Golf Hall of Fame.
(10:33):
All Right, we're back, uh, David. In your book The
Making of the Masters, the final piece I think too,
sort of the merry and story and and even though
everything you've just laid out makes her worthy of being
in the World Golf Hall of Fame already, um in
your research you found that um Dr Mackenzie sent her
(10:57):
and Louis himself at some point during the construction. Now
he was there quite a bit during the construction, but
he was having trouble getting paid. And as I read
it in your book, Uh, part part of the reason,
he said Hollins was, uh, he didn't want to go,
and part of it was because he trusted her and
(11:17):
because she had already had such an influence on the
on the building of Augusta National. Yeah, it's true. You know,
McKinney's original seat was I think it was ten thousand
dollars and cut act to five. But he never got
even that. I mean, I don't know what. I don't
know what they paid him. He couldn't afford to go,
and he would write these begging letters practically to Robert's.
(11:37):
You know, I'm I'm reduced to playing golf with one
club in a Woolworths ball, this kind of thing. That
is and his wife were gathering firewood around their house
to try to keep body and sold together. And he
didn't have any money and the club didn't have any money.
I mean, you look at the old account books. They
owed money to everybody and in still in you know,
(11:58):
nothe thirty four when the first tournament was held. That
was really nice program and through all these advertisements in it,
and all the advertisers were people that the club owed
money to you know, the people put in the irrigation system,
you know, the people they bought dirt from, the people
that bought fan from. It was just it looks like
this is a going enterprise. In fact it was these
were just all their debtors. So the club didn't have
(12:18):
any money. They couldn't pay him. At one point, he
mackenzie wanted wanted some you know, some I know, some
kind of uh cheesy notes that he would then try
to sell it a discount, some loan and Hollans helped
him with that, and he got a bit of money
from that. But anyway, Hollans at that point she was
rolling in it. She discovered oil. She the money that
(12:41):
she put into her fortune that she spent on pasta tampo.
She you know, she had she had money. So she
came and looked. Roberts was upset, not because of her, necessarily,
but because he wanted, uh, he wanted Mackenzie there. Mackenzie.
You know, mckenn you never saw the course finished. He never,
(13:01):
he never, He was never there again. And but anyway,
Hollands reported, but she liked it a lot. She contributes
to the design. But she assured Mackenzie that his ideas
were being carried through. So, David, the last thing I
wanted to ask you about related to Marian and Augusta
and Clifford Roberts was I think the thing that we
we lose a little bit in and thinking about this,
(13:25):
or we we we easily forget, is that she was
a woman doing this at a time, really telling a
lot of men with pretty big egos how to do something,
how to get it done, how to how to finish
her project. And then I think what your research did
was bring together what she did as a visionary, as
a producer, and bringing all these great minds together. Is
(13:49):
that something in your research of Augusta you sensed was
difficult for Clifford Roberts. I don't think it was for
Bobby Jones, right, yeah, you know, I I don't know
they both. Uh. I think her main contribution to Augusta National,
I mean, her real contribution to Augustin National was she
created the template that they followed us. The tampo was
(14:10):
was what they wanted when they started out, that was
what they wanted. They used the people that she had used,
so they didn't have any they didn't hesitate to, you know,
to follow the example of a woman. When she actually
came on site, it was a pretty mind you know,
nobody was there. Roberts wasn't there. Uh, Jones wasn't there,
and she was just basically looking at it and assuring
(14:33):
Mackenzie the things were going according to plan. Uh. Roberts
at that point he wanted, he wanted Mackenzie to be
there taking part in it. Uh. So he I don't
I'm not sure how he felt about, uh, you know,
taking or taking counsel from a woman. And I also
don't know how much she actually she actually told him.
(14:53):
I think mainly what she said was it's good, you know,
it's a she she gave her seal of approval. U.
But she was you know, but it was the the Uh.
There are two things that are interesting. Women's National did
really did find through the Great Depression. UH and UH
Posit possit Tampa is sort of um and much better.
(15:18):
They did much better than um. Uh then Augusta National
did initially, but it's Augustin National that survived pasta. Tampa
ended up. Um, you know, it went into receivership or
it was, and Women's National when the war came along,
the women basically decided that they they didn't want to
keep it going and uh it was it was augusta
(15:40):
National that that persisted with this kind of um, I
don't know, stubborn determination to survive. He's amazing, Uh setbacks
and uh part of it is at Hollands in the
end of her career, she had this automobile accident. She
died young she um Uh she so this sort of
(16:03):
powerful personality that she was was it ceased to be there.
And these projects of hers, this incredible plasit GAMP was
an incredibly ambitious project. Uh and uh, you know, the
war killed it in um the but I think that
the the what's interesting is that is partly that she
(16:24):
did she's unique. You know, think who who is the
ah name another woman who had this kind of a visionary,
successful golf course development um record. And it may just
be that, as with Women's National, when when times got
(16:47):
really tough, the women, you know, the women who were
the members of it, who were running it, decided it
wasn't worth it to keep going. And it wasn't this
kind of uh insane men's commitment to keeping a golf
course alive. Uh. But because she was, she was she
wasn't really herself. I think at the end of at
the end of her current she died. She was like
fifty one died. Uh. So, Um, we didn't get the
(17:11):
full We didn't get the full Mary in Hollands. But boy,
when she was when she was active, she was she
was remarkable, Um the in all these different fields, and
she was a great athlete. And then she was Um
she you know pasta Tampa was was a the movie
stars all hung out there. It was the idea of
(17:32):
of golf surrounded by a real estate development was not
that was new and uh and uh. The she brought
Ernest Jones to the United States and she then she
basically discovered Ali from mackenzie. Those are any one of
those is a major contribution to to the history of
golf and they all came from her. Yeah, there's been
(17:52):
very few real superstar developers and then I Mike, we
have Mike Kaiser's day, but there there haven't been many
who really understood how to bring all these different people
together and and trust them and use their visions. So
that impact on Augustin National is profound. And obviously in
the places that that she's left behind because so few
(18:13):
people even know that Cyprus Point and plots of Tempo
were real estate developments. They're so well done that you
you don't think about it in the way you think
about it when you go somewhere else. You mentioned the
war in your book The Making of the Masters. You
covered quite a bit about Augustin National during the war years.
They lost three masters, uh during that time, and we
(18:34):
obviously are now in a holding pattern with the possibility
of a November playing. Did anything about last week and
not having a master's and your your time going through
the archives in those warriors strike you as as interesting
in these bizarre times, Yeah, it was really it was
really weird. Um, the not having a master's because you know,
(18:57):
if you're a golfer's so much of how you oh yeah,
it's how you know it's spring and exactly then it's
a part of it. And I also, I found this,
I found this thing that I hadn't necessarily been expecting.
I didn't really enjoy watching replace of old tournaments. It's interesting.
It just made me feel kind of sad that the
room wasn't on and uh So I watched a little bit,
but but not a whole lot. And it feels a
(19:19):
little different now to where you know, in the war
it was. It was a war. You had the things
we stopped. Bobby Jones said, this what turned out to
be a terrible idea, but the idea of will contribute
to the war effort by grazing cattle on our golf course.
And uh, the it turns out the cattle really like
to eat as alias and they leave. They left these
(19:40):
huge green, bright green spots all over the golf course
from the cow pies landed that these intermittently fertile, fertilized fairways.
So that that was that was a disaster. But you know,
when they you think about what what it was like
then from economic point of view, it's probably similar to
what it is now. They it had just scraped through
(20:01):
the Great Depression. One thing people don't realize this. The
first Masters, when it was the Augusta National Invitation tournament,
it got a lot of headlines because Bobby Jones is
going to return to competitive golf. After that, there wasn't
a lot of easy ways to sell it in the
field was small to begin with, and its shrank steadily
through the thirties. It was like, you know, it was
(20:21):
smaller than my club's member guests by by the late
nineteen thirties. It just started to turn around at the
end of the thirties, and then the war came along
and it had to shut down completely, and there was
no certainty when they did that they'd ever opened up again,
or that the tournament would ever be held again. So, uh,
(20:43):
the I think that, I think that now. I mean
we're talking about November. We're not talking about three years
from now. Uh, it doesn't seem it doesn't seem quite
the same. I've also found I've getting a lot more done,
uh now that I'm not playing golf. I've played nine
holes a few times. But uh, you know, and I'd
(21:04):
really like to go back. One of the nice things
about it is that there's no cards. My club is
still open sort of, but there's no carts. The golf
shop is closed, no guests are allowed. So if you go,
it's pretty nice. You know, it's it's just a handful
of people out walking around, staying far away from each other,
and um, it's really pretty pleasant. We would not be
(21:26):
able to afford to You mentioned Mike Kaiser a minute ago,
and I think he's a pretty good analog. And it's
the same kind of visionary. Uh, each of the they
had different ideas of what of what they were doing,
but both of them had an impact on golf have
had you know, Kaiser has definitely had an impact on
golf and and Hollans did. Hollands is more invisible, but
(21:49):
she was in her scope was smaller, but still you know,
it was a she was a big deal. Oh yeah, yeah.
And that's what I think is wonderful about this Hall
of Fame in duction. And it took a long time,
and it took all these little bits and pieces to
be understood, and just this greater awareness of golf course
design and and design of all other elements of of
(22:11):
an experience that you enjoy when you go to these places.
And it's just a more of an awakening of of
of the impact that somebody can have besides being a
great golfer. She she just got people thinking a lot
of different ways. And um, it's it's it's a so
it's it's to me, it's a wonderful induction and announcement
(22:32):
just on that that notion alone, that there's more to
the game than just people playing the game. Well, that
there were people who were dreaming and envisioning other things.
So you you have written uh, I believe it's eleven books,
uh things, It's probably it's a lot, Okay. And you
and and one of them obviously have some golf books
(22:53):
besides making the Masters my usual game. And you did
a book on tiger woods. Uh. And you did a
compilation of essays that I love, Lord of the Links.
But but recently you've you've done a few things on
water and a book on you called Green Metropolis. Why
living smaller, living closer, driving lesser keys to sustainability. Um.
(23:15):
You touched on the changes to your golf experience and
in in a few times you've played recently. Where do
you and I know this is a big question, but
but do you see major changes to the game coming
out of this? What? What? What do you anticipate? Nobody
knows what the world is gonna look like a year
(23:35):
from now, two years from now. Uh. I think we're
talking about this with a friend so and I think
it will be different. I think that think lots of
things will be different. It would I've often thought, just
in terms of for environmental reasons, golf could be Golf
would still be fun if it were less Um, over
(23:59):
the top than it is now, and you think that
more the way it is and the British Isles, or
has been in the British Isles, where you know, they
have advantages that we don't. The game arose there so
and it arose to be played in the conditions that
exist there, so they don't have to do the same
kind of golf golf course maintenance that we do to
to to create a surface on which you can play golf.
(24:21):
But you can play golf on it. You can play
golf and have a great time doing it on surfaces
that don't look like carpet. And I think that maybe
the we will for a variety of reasons. They'll be
economic reasons, they'll be environmental reasons, they'll be maybe they'll
be uh, health reasons why golf can be um the
(24:46):
way I like it better, Not everybody does, But there's
a kind of scaled scale down, more more casual, more
a little rough around the rougher around the edges. I
don't think that would be a bad thing. And one
of the things that I've liked the best about uh,
you know, one of my favorite golf types assignments I
had ever was I went to Scotland, and uh, rented
(25:06):
a car and had my golf clubs and I didn't play.
I played only courses that I'd never heard of before.
And I remember that was a great piece. It was
really fun. And I would go someplace and I would play,
and then I would say, Okay, where should I go next?
And go, oh, we're only twelve miles from uh, you know, Karnystie.
And no, no, no, I don't want to play Karnystie.
Tell me We're tell me someplace I've never heard of before.
We go, oh, okay, you know you should go here.
(25:28):
And the golf that way where it's not you're not
paying for your round and you don't have all this
sort of riggingmarroll around it and vast clubhouses and all
this kind of stuff. Uh. The little golf course that
I belonged to in my town. I think that the
secret of its successes. We don't have a restaurant. It
(25:50):
has a it has a it has a grill, uh
you know, like a you know, a barbecue grill on
a little patio, and it has a kitchen, but it's
like a kitchen in your house, and there's no It
just makes it it's it's just a golf club, and
that's to me that's incredibly appealing that you know, there
are people who who hate that and they wish that
(26:10):
they had, you know, all kinds of other activities along
with it. But you know, that's that's a scale, scaled
down roll of golf would be U. I would not
have a problem with. Yeah, the sense that the sports
the sport will be appreciated a bit more, either by
the people who are in some form attached to it
(26:30):
as a as a as a golfer a lot of
them not able to play now, or or restricted and
missing it, but also as just a great form of
recreation that you can distance and get exercise and be outdoors.
Do you do you do you see that possibility or
do you think some of the excesses that have uh
(26:51):
tainted people's views of the sport will will still be
there or or maybe even made worse by this. I
don't know. Yeah, people don't human nature, it tends to
be pretty durable. I've always made a joke so you
might like most golf clubs. My golf club, the average
age has been rising, and I said, no one one
tough flue season and we would be in serious trouble.
(27:14):
Um and you know here we have that kind of thing.
So I, you know, it'll be interesting to see how,
uh what comes back. And it's not like even like
two thousand and eight, where you kind of felt that
there was I where the unemployment rate was a fraction
of what it is right now and where you felt, Okay,
(27:34):
you know there's this horrible thing. In a year or two,
things will be then won't be back to where they were,
but they'll be on the mend, and people things go on,
and people forget that there was this. You know, they
forgot about seven You forget about you kind of move on.
This seems like it has at least the potential to
to change a lot of things permanently. Um My, my
(27:55):
my friends and I had seven friends and I we
were going to be going to Wales in where we're
going like in a couple of weeks to play to
play golf in Whales for ten days, and that trip
we've we've moved it to October. And when we did
this is in I don't know, not too far into March.
And one of the guys said, you really don't think
(28:17):
we'll be going in May? And then like one day later,
everybody was like, do you think October is far enough away?
So you know, every day it seems it's still changes
like that, and and the who knows what what people
will be thinking about traveling abroad to play golf the
or if there will even be any flights, or if
(28:40):
people think, you know, there's a risk that I go
to the uk uh if I catch it there and
I have to stay there for I have to be
treated there after, or if I'm suspected I have to
stay there in quarantine for two weeks. I think they're
they're all these question marks. And there's you think of
how much of the kind of golfing for structure that
we depend on, the tour groups that the tour companies,
(29:02):
the golf course maintenance crews are, how many people will
be willing to keep paying their dues through hum through
a crisis like this. Let's say my club, you have
to pay all your dues up front. And the deadline
was like right before Connecticut shut down, so everybody everybody
was already in. But you know there's so many committees
(29:23):
I'm glad I'm not on, and one of them is
I'm glad I'm out of the board of governors at
the club, and I'm uh, the so many people we
were having to make decisions based on not a whole
lot of solid information. Why Whales? May I just ask
from a golf point of view, Not that I don't
mean that as an indictment on Whales, because I've never
played some of the courses there and some of them
(29:44):
looking incredible. I'm just just as a golfer, I'm curious
how you guys picked that. We've been everywhere else and uh,
there's a Then there are all these lessening pictures, you know,
there are all these links courses up to the up
the coast and uh, and it's less expensive. We thought,
you know, they're not. They're not going to be as
many people. One thing, that's one thing that it was
(30:04):
not why why we did it? But it turns out
if you have to reschedule a trip, Wales is a
lot easier than the old course. Uh. The people who
are really sweating are the ones who put down a
huge amount of money for packages, uh at Saint Andrew's
or at the fancy places, and who knows what's going
to happen to them with us. I think that they'll
(30:28):
be glad to see us whenever we show up. I
kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely, well, I will poke around
the internet for that story. I I remember it well,
and I don't know if it's still online anywhere. Um,
it's like, you know, you'll find it out if you
go to my website. Okay, perfect, The to my usual
game dot com may be on the other one too.
(30:48):
I think that I think you'll find it there. Well,
it was back back road Scotland. I think it was
back road Scotland. Okay, great, well, David, thank you so
much for this impromptu conversation to discuss uh this this
lovely news about Marian Hollins and and uh I hope
you stay safe and get to play some golf soon
under safe conditions there in Connecticut. Yeah, same to you, exactly.
(31:13):
We'll play together. Sometimes we'll play over zoom or something
like that. Thank you, David. Okay, thank you, Jeff, Hey,
quick break here, let's hear from our sponsors. I will
put together some notes from this conversation with David. I
(31:34):
hope you enjoy them at Jeff shackle for dot com.
I already have a post up about Marian with some
some links if you want to kind of go back
in time and imagine what that was like, and I
learn a little bit more about Augusta. I don't think
it's ever the wrong time to be thinking about the
Masters and the creation of that place. It's always fascinating conversation.
I hope you enjoyed it. Uh. He is a an
(31:57):
incredible writer. If you you don't recall his work, I
will have some links up that PC wrote about lesser
named less famous golf courses was I think one of those,
along with a couple others. Some books like Michael Bamberger's
book to the Links Land and Laura rumen Scene's book
on Dornick that got people thinking you could you could
(32:18):
play golf in Scotland and have a great time, even
if it wasn't a very famous place. And I certainly
endorse there are so so many fun links. I hope
he gets to make that trip to Wales. As always,
I want to thank the show's producer, Tim Parrotica for
editing this together. And just a reminder of the Shack shows,
the production of I Heart Radio and as you know,
(32:38):
for more podcasts from my heart, visit the I Heart
Radio apps. The super app gives you great notifications or
of course, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. We'll be back soon with another episode of
The Shack Show.
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