April 23, 2020 • 40 mins
Cliff Drysdale is ESPN's longest tenured broadcaster and a member of the International Tennis Hall of Fame. A grand slam finalist and doubles champion and he also loves golf. In episode five of the Shack Show, Geoff talks to Cliff about how he got started in golf, his friendship with Jack Nicklaus, the role changes technology played on making tennis more interesting and on the longevity of Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal. They also discuss team tennis and recently flirtations with team concepts in both tennis and potentially in golf.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Ever since I started dreaming about doing this show, I
have wanted to get people from other walks of life
(00:21):
who love golf on to discuss elements in their arena
of business or sport, to hear their perspective our sport,
and maybe to see the parallels. And and I've always
been fascinated by the parallels between tennis and golf. Even
though they look so radically different, they share quite a
bit I think in common in terms of, uh, who
(00:43):
plays the sports, the people who tend to like both
and tend to be good at both. And no one
has fascinated me more on that topic. And the person
I want to get on as soon as I could,
and that is Cliff Drysdale, the longtime ESPN tennis podcast.
He's the nineteen seventy two US Open doubles champion. Um
(01:04):
he was a finalist in the US Open. He has
been at ESPN as a broadcaster since nineteen seventy nine. Uh,
My dad, Lynn and Cliff announced some events in the
eighties together on tennis and I got to meet him
as a young man, but I haven't spoken to him
since that time. But as a fan of tennis, particularly
the Grand Slam events that are on ESPN. I just
(01:26):
love whenever Cliff is broadcasting. His voice is uh has
just a calming effect, especially in times like these. I thought, oh,
even more reason to talk to him. But selfishly, of course,
I have some views, as some of you might know,
on the role of technology, the influence of different things,
and that influence the way our sport is played at
(01:47):
all levels. So I know Tennis has made some changes
in recent years to their ball to make the Grand
Slam events more interesting, So I wanted to talk about
that with Cliff and also Team Tennis, which is has
some interesting parallels with what's going on in tennis, trying
to mimic things that are going on in golf. And
then of course in golf we have the Premier Golf
(02:08):
League concept that is a threat to the PGA Tour model,
but also one that may be shaped by some things
that are going on in tennis. Tennis is shaping some
of their things they've seen with our Ryder Cup in
different events. So he's a member of the International Tennis
Hall of Fame. He is the pioneer of the two
handed backhand, and he loves loves golf. And this is
(02:30):
Cliff dries Dale. I spoke to him just a bit
ago in Austin and Cliff, Uh, the thing I wanted
to ask you most first of all, is just simply,
how did you get into golf as somebody who was
an elite tennis player? Growing up in South Africa, we
lived in Port Elizabeth, South Africa. I was at school
there from about the time when I was let's say
(02:55):
eight or nine years old. We lived opposite the golf course,
the Port Elizabeth Golf Club, and that's where I learned
to play because my mother was an enthusiastic golfer and
she would go out and every so often I'd be
allowed to go out and hang hang out with her
and play golf, and that's how I started with golf.
(03:18):
But tennis was where in your life at that point.
Tennis was number one. Tennis was number one. Tennis was
my way of of that was there was sort of
who I was because there was a point I was
generally a pretty good athlete, and so I was good
at cricket also, and I played cricket, golf, tennis. We
(03:44):
were very much encouraged in in South Africa in those
years probably still to play a variety of different sports,
which is what I did. But I was I was
a good cricketer, and I was and and but tennis
was my thing because I was I was the best
inness player around and and so that became my thing.
(04:08):
Plus I love playing the game. Tennis are golf are both?
No I had. I've had a life along love affair
with golf from the time that I took it up.
It was just not it was It never occurred to
me to have taken seriously. For me, it was always
a fun thing to do and you know, a great,
(04:31):
great way to communicate with friends and and uh so
I and I never stopped, I mean from even on
the tour. The joy for me was to find a
place to play golf, and that's what I used to do.
I never met anyone who was more enthusiastic about golf
(04:52):
than Vitas Gerulitis. Because he would get up at five
block in the morning in Paris. I'll never forget and
take car out to one of the one of the
Paris golf courses and he'd be back ready for his shows,
for our shows at you know, at eleven o'clock in
the morning. I could never quite join him in that.
But what what was nice about it was that I
(05:16):
knew that he was playing every day, so if I
felt like playing, all I had to do was call
him and say where he playing today. He didn't do
that when he was competing, right, I didn't know him
really well because he was he was when he was competing,
because he was a generation after mine. But this was
when he joined ESPN and we were being broadcasts together.
(05:37):
And how did you get to meet Jack Nicholas and
get to know him? Um? I him in Lakeway, Texas. Uh.
He was doing a promotional around the golf so they
invited me to play golf with him, and golf and tennis.
We did a tennis thing at the World of Tennis
(05:57):
and then we went to the golf court was played
nine holes of golf with the pro um and the
tennis pro And so that was the first time I
met him, And I want to say that was in
probably the mid seventies UM. But then I really reconnected
(06:18):
with him well twice, once doing an interview with him
when I did British Open for ESPNUM, and that was
probably the nineties UM. And then but then I moved
to Miami, from North Carolina. And uh, that's when I
(06:43):
reconnected with Jack and Ch buck Holes, who was one
of my close friends, had a really close relationship with Jack,
still does. And so I got in on a little
four ball with with with Jack and myself and Butch
and and one other guy who's did a lot of
(07:05):
landscaping for for Jack at his house. So that became
a regular game and we would play, um, you know,
let's say once on the average, probably once a month
in the wintertime. And he loves some days. We kind
of think he almost loves tennis more than golf because
he's he's such a passionate fan of the sport. Have
(07:26):
you have you too discussed the two sports a decent amount, Yeah,
a lot, and uh, you know, we we tend to
change our minds called things. And but but he built
three beautiful gross courts at his house, which I'm sure
you know, uh, and and they are kept in in
(07:49):
such sensational shape because he is pretty anal about you know,
the way things should be with gross And consequently he
has he's beautiful grass courts. Now he's slowed down a
bit here lately. But and I left Miami three years ago,
so we have seen each other just from time to
(08:13):
time since that time. But I do know that he
is not as a He's not as interested in getting
out and playing Tennessee anymore. And I think that's more
a physical thing than anything sure with he loves it
more than golf. And I don't know, but but I
will say that it was always sort of like, Okay,
(08:34):
we're gonna play golf and then we're gonna play tennis.
And we used to come there and play at his
house and and I'm thinking, man, I'm dragging and he
is still out there, ready to play tennis until the
sun goes down. Well, we see him in the Royal
box at Wimbledon and putting on a jacket and tye
is not his favorite thing in the world. So when
(08:55):
you see that, you you know he loves the sports still.
It's for us, that's uh, it's wonderfully as you know,
he's just an incredible ambassador for for all of sports,
not not just golf, but we we love to hear
from it. So one of the things that I wanted
to speak to you about UM today and regarding Mr
(09:16):
Nicholas's views on kind of the evolution of our sport
are the interesting parallels between tennis and golf, and you
being someone who has played both for for for your life,
I think would be interesting to hear from as to uh,
how you see these things evolving and in particular, UH,
(09:39):
we have uh seen an improvement in tennis, at least
me as a casual fan, uh in recent years, where
the sport feels a little more enjoyable to watch, and
certain legends have managed to hang around and and and
a little more variety of styles seems to be coming back.
(09:59):
It's not like used to be. But I was wondering
if you could help us understand what has happened in tennis,
especially at the Grand Slam events, with the ball or
anything else they've done with surfaces to try and get
back some of the older characteristics of the sport. If
they have. I believe they have, though is that correct?
(10:20):
It's a very involved question because it's so important, uh
how they handle these things. In other words, my my
greatest nightmare is if we had uh eight out of
ten top players playing the John Isner kind of game
(10:42):
and trying his best to break serve at some point
knowing that he's never going to get broken. Um. So
so tennis wrestles with these things all the time. And
there's there's the opposite, which was probably the second most
boring thing you could watch in Tennessee is like Mess v.
(11:04):
Lander and it was a game of Vilas maybe playing
the final of the French Championships on clay. They're both
standing by and hitting the ball back to each other
like this was just a gigantic ping pong table, and
that was also deathly boring. Um, what has happened here
(11:25):
and what has made it so exciting of this last
generation is the variety that that that that Federal and
Novak Djokovic and Rafa Nadal to a lesser extent, Andy
Murray have been able to bring to the game because
neither one of them relies on any one shot. They
rely on this combination that they have and the true
(11:49):
athletic geniuses. But the ball question, it's it's it's so
easy to change the character of of a this contest
by changing the character of the tennis ball, the more
you're allowed to fluff up, and the slower that it becomes,
(12:11):
the longer in theory the rallies should last. And they
have experimented with different balls and the different characteristics and
continue to do because it has to be done in
concert with the surface. So you know, you can make
a hard court like at the US Open or in Australia,
(12:34):
for example, as slow or as quick as you like
by just the amount of of sand that you put
in the top layer of acrylic um. And so the
things have sort of got to work together and can
now it's not as easy on grass, but they definitely
Wimbledon slowed the game down on grass by doing two things.
(12:58):
Making the grass core it's a lot harder and uh
and and and and a lot easier in a certain way,
and then slowing the balls now so that the servant
volley was not the only thing that could win points.
That started with Bob when he was able to stay
back and and when matches on, you know, wimbled it,
(13:23):
and when the tournament because before that was unthinkable, you
know in my era, and and a little later than that.
So when Bob came along was able to win the
French and when Wimbledon, that's what made it so special.
But this is a constantly evolving question though. If it's
constantly evolving, and you have to re examine it because
(13:47):
you've also got the strings in a tennis racket that
make a huge difference. You've got the tennis rackets itself,
so you're dealing with not just the ball and the surface,
you're also with the with the upgraded technology that these
record manufacturers keep coming up with, and you have to
try to balance those things. Is that controversial in tennis,
(14:10):
these attempts to make it better, because as you know,
in golf, and you know I'm sure from talking to
Mr Nicholas, it's very controversial to have that discussion because
their financial interest thinking of selling golf balls. But is
it something you deal with in tennis that way? No,
I don't think. I think. Look, the main thing for tennis,
(14:32):
and it should be the same for golf, is just
that we want the sport to grow, and we want
the sport to be exciting, and it's far more important
to to have a good presentation than it is to
worry about where the Dunlop is going to be able
to make some inroads into the tennis record business. Again,
(14:53):
so I don't see that as a as a major
issue tennis. I don't see the manufacturer is pulling any
the eddy which way. The professional product that Tennessee is
producing now In the end, the last generation is as
good as it has ever been. Um, there was a
time when I thought that, you know, the Agasty Center's
(15:14):
courier chun here could never be surpassed. But it was.
I'm gonna take a quick break and then I'm going
to ask you a question about your view of this
element of golf. All right, we're back. So you do
(15:43):
you watch a lot of golf? Still? I do not
watch a lot of golf. I watched generally the majors,
which is which is probably true of a lot of
people that that that's the way it is, and and
and and reocually interested in it. More on the technical side.
The sporting side for me, I don't is not that compelling. Yeah,
(16:08):
do you see some of the parallels with with kind
of a power game and uh, the interest in that,
the the sort of short term excitement that's created by
that with golf being similar to the ones that that
probably fueled people's initial fascination with with as you mentioned
in Isner or previously, Pete Sampras, do you see that
(16:30):
those parallels between the two sports, I do not. I
have not. I have not noticed that. Look for me,
I'm looking at I'm more a participant than I am
a spectator. So if I'm watching the golf telecasts of
the Masters, for example, I'm fascinated by what I learned,
(16:53):
because there's obviously a lot that I don't truly don't
in order I pay any particular attention to um and
I look at it more from the television business and
the fact that I would really like for the announcers
to fill us in a little, you know, in as
much depth as possible as to what's going on and
the kind of things that you're talking about. Um Uh.
(17:18):
I do not see golf just in general as a
general observation as as as a product, ah in a
negative way. I don't. I don't think that. I don't
think that's true. I don't think that that god the
golf presentation is is anything other than it's always been,
(17:40):
which is really top class. I just think that the
thing that most tenvis and golf struggling with is continuing,
you know, to to to try to upgrade the numbers
of people that are playing. And and and that that
that part, I think is the challenging thought. It is
(18:01):
and and and it's we have the the two sports
that are the most played by people and watched, and
it's in and in particular in golf, it's it's really
shifted in in recent years to two very focused on
power and getting more distance and buying more distance, and
so the numbers haven't grown though with that, with with
(18:22):
the clubs being easier to hit than ever. And something
similar happened with tennis and the rackets, and I believe
it really didn't that the larger racket. Would you say,
has it has it helped grow the sport or has
it sustained the sport? Again, it's it's that is just
one component of so many components that changed the character
(18:43):
of the sport. The bigger record definitely helped the viability
of being able to play different different shots more effectively,
like top spin for example, and the strings became a
part of that, a part of that dynamic. And again
just so many different, you know, different things that you
(19:06):
have to consider more Southern golf in tennis, because the
surfaces in tennis are so different golf. You've got different
grosses and obviously you've got different speeds, etcetera, etcetera, but
you basically playing on gross no matter where you are.
Look at the one thing that Jack told me that
I'm sure you're probably aware of, and this was when
(19:27):
I interviewed him at the British Open that year, and
then he said that that golfers should all be playing
with the same ball. Yes, yes, just like we do
in tennis. Is that part of the discussion, Yes, he's
and he it's really interesting. He's been very consistent on
that topic for a long time. And if you can
believe it, Cliff people actually criticize him for his stance
(19:51):
and are are hard on him, even though he's the
greatest player who ever lived, even though he is coming
at it from a perspective of a big picture, not
a selfish perspective, and he's been doing it since the
late seventies, and yet um, people sort of mock him
for for this stance. Now Tiger has come to his
(20:14):
side of things as well. His view is the ball.
Both of them feel like the ball obviously goes too
far and then it now moves less and so you
see less shot making, you see less shot shaping, and
you see, uh, it harder for a truly elite player
to differentiate themselves in their view, um. And then they've
(20:36):
designed courses, both of them, and it comes from a
point of view of the absurdity of just trying to
keep expanding the footprint of the game to accommodate a
small number of people. So he's been very consistent on
that view. And it's, uh, it's a it's a big
part of our sport and a big dilemma we're facing
right now and then now in this downturn or this,
(20:59):
this cause this at this point where we're not playing,
it's it's a chance to reflect on it again. And
that's why I'm fascinated by the parallels with with what
what what tennis has done to make it more interesting. Yeah,
on that topic, Uh, I was hoping to kind of
get your your perspective on Roger and Rafa and and
(21:19):
and their longevity because another component we're seeing in this
is the way golf is played now. It's very power driven.
It's very much go and have a great few years
and then you're gone, and the chance to have a
longer career, either because we have more injuries or just
because that form of golf isn't very interesting to play. Um,
(21:41):
and we're seeing a turnover rate and sort of a uh,
it's harder to differentiate yourself, do you feel that these
changes with that Tennis has made to too with the ball,
these tweaks has helped uh keep Roger and Rafa around?
Are they just unique talent so would have done this
(22:01):
no matter what happened? No, I think they. I think
that first of all, I think they've injected each other
with an quoture here, that that that keeps them going.
That that's true of Novak as well. Unfortunately Andy Murray
sort of by the wayside now. But I don't think
that there's anything technical that has kept them going and
(22:26):
and has allowed them to enjoy such longevity. I think
that's purely part of their their their physical makeup. Um,
look at that. It's it's an incredibly difficult sport, I think,
much more difficult than golf is in in so many
ways because your your conditioning has got to be absolutely
(22:48):
superb to play for four hours in the in the
hot sun, running running side, right side, right to side.
Um that it's just And then the mental side of
the game is probably as compelling as it is in golf,
because even though it's a moving ball and it's different,
(23:13):
it is just compelling. I think it's about the strength
of mind of these guys, plus the fact that winning
begets winning and once you start winning, then that makes
it more fun and more enjoyable. And they have been
able to stay so consistently at the top that why
(23:33):
would they stop while it can play as well as
they do. So I don't think it's the product of
of the change the circumstances and the courts and the balls,
and I just don't think that plays much of a
part in this um I look, I think the a
TP is interested in in presenting the sport in the
(23:55):
best possible way as well. Those guys have had a
lot of input in that, and I do think that
the tournaments very close attention to what the top players
say about the conditions and about the balls, etcetera. Well,
I'm gonna take one more break, and then you've set
me up perfectly for for for the other topic I
(24:15):
wanted to UH ask you about here on the Shack Show.
So you mentioned the a t P. You were the
first president. Is that correct? Correct? And you have seen
(24:36):
quite a few uh debates, controversies elements. I've heard you
um on telecasts and in in interviews mentioned you'd like
to see the structure more like what the PGA Tour
does UM, And I don't want to go down all
the various messes, but I that I'm sure you've seen
(24:57):
over the years and debates. In fact, I even saw
today that Roger mentioned it's time to get the men
and women all under one umbrella. But what I really
wanted to to dive into with you because I saw
a fascinating discussion with you and Chrissie. I believe at
the Australian Open this year. I believe it was about
the Labor Cup and and team events and we I
(25:19):
don't know if you know, there's a group that is
trying to propose a golf the top players leave the
PGA Tour and go to this new concept that's that's
individual tournaments, but it ends with a team element and
it's based off of Formula one. And you would have
the first few years Tiger Woods might have a team
(25:41):
and Phil Mickelson might have a team. And I'm curious, uh,
in all the years of of tennis is various dances
with the team component. UM, if you could help us
understand what tennis is grappling with on that that front,
uh as as is is it thinking of trying to
make it sport more interesting in the weeks that are
(26:03):
not the Grand Slam events? Is that about right? No,
I would say that that is is definitely not. Look,
so let me take a step back, because I find
that what you're saying is very interesting and a really
good question and topic. Look, I have been saying for
years that tennis should be more like golf in inasmuch
(26:28):
as golf has, at least from where I said, seems
to experiment with different ways to present the sport. Um,
you've got team competitions, uh, and then you have within
a sport, the different ways of of counting who who's winning. Uh,
(26:51):
Like you know, the Writer Cup and it's got I
guess each day of a different format slightly. That's fascinating
stuff and uh, and it's just there's then the Skins
game that you know obviously a very different story. But
but but it was different also and it was exciting
(27:14):
and it was to me it was fun to see
different formats. And then as you said, bringing the women in,
uh is something that I don't think golf has done
much of obviously not like tennis. So I would not
disagree with that. But again, I think that golf has
been a lot more proactive. And I have the sense
that golf sits down at the end of every every
(27:37):
year like they should, and like most sports in this
country do, and say listen, how can we make this
and how can we present this better? I was I've
been upset with tennis for years that we have had
so little of that. That said, in the last couple
of years, we UH at ESPN sat down with a
(27:58):
whole group of of administrators from both the majors and
the a t P and the w t A and
they were nice enough to get together and allow us
to make a presentation which basically said to that to
this group, we at ESPN have spent a lot of
money on the sport of tennis and and really, bottom
(28:21):
line is all we are interested in doing is presenting
the sport in a better way, making it more exciting,
making it more lively, making it more fun for the
people for our viewers to watch. No, we're not interested
in trying to take over the game or a segment
of the game noways no ulterior motive. And I think
that that meeting was the start of the administrators of
(28:47):
this game, as disparate as they are, um to to
really give some thought to the way that the game
is presented, and it has. It has to a large
extent I think worked. I think it's we've now got
the Labor Cup, which is a different format. We've got
a new format Davis Cup, which I think has been
(29:11):
a disaster, but at least there's an attempt to change
up what was something that was way way out of
date Davis Cup, and so and then the Australians have
got this this a TP Cup, which I think has
probably got the best choints of success because it's it's
it's gonna it has this team competition concept. Within a
(29:34):
season just before the Australian Open, I think golf showed
the way. Tennis has been slow to follow, but now
beginning to realize that they've got to get on board
with more exciting ways to present a game. What went
wrong with Team Tennis in the It was a late
seventies I believe, and it had incredible names and and
(29:58):
behind it it seemed like all the top players played.
What Why did it not succeed? That's another difficult question answer.
I played it and and and yeah we had some
you know, Labo, who is at his best at that time.
He played some rosewall Um. It had the names. Uh,
(30:18):
It's it's not clear to me why it didn't succeed
other than the fact that that it was competing with
the tour, so that the majority of the enthusiasm for
the summer, which is when World Team Tennis was played.
It has survived, it still happens. The problem with it
(30:40):
now is that the numbers for the top players have
become so staggeringly high that it's very difficult to make
it work as a business. So you no longer get
the real big names playing because you can't play a
man sickly. The A T P Cup you described as similar,
(31:03):
almost identical really to the concept that that this group
is trying to do in golf. And one of the
things that it's that's made them attractive to people is
that the younger generation is more attracted to team sports
than they are individual sports. Obviously there's a financial element
that they that's driving at the valuation of us having
(31:25):
a franchise. The team here in l A was the
l A Strings. I believe in team tennis. Who did
you play for? I played for the San Diego Flyers
and then the Anaheim orange Es. Wow. Uh, where did
you play in. That was at the convention Center or
the because it was indoors always right, the the Anaheim
(31:48):
was what what what what are the options for Anaheim? Yeah,
it was probably the convention Center. There was no arena
then and the strings played of course at the form.
I know that from when my dad worked for the
Lakers and went to a team tennis. I can still
remember it. But so it's it's uh, it's what it's.
There's a there's a financial element of in the in
the ego element of of franchise owners, and that part
(32:10):
of it is driving the money side. But there is
something too. People no longer being as infatuated with individual sports,
and so it's something that has really shaken things up
in golf in terms of people's thinking of our are
just having forty events a year and and and spread
all over the world and different tours. But you've got
(32:31):
to admit, you've got to write a cup and well
the President's guy and that's actually and when people see
that kind of competition, Cliff, the emotion that comes out
both because of match play and because of playing for
a group has shown the weekly stroke play to be
very boring, and I wonder if the same thing has
(32:52):
happened in tennis where where when when people do see
the Labor Cup or I mean in the Davis Cup
with its peak, that it may makes other than those
great moments in the Grand Slam quarters and semis or
maybe the nighttime in the US Open, it makes the
rest of the year look pretty dull. Yes, listen, I agree.
(33:13):
Let me make it very clear when I said that
I've been trying to fight this fight for years. Uh,
it has not been a you know, say anything that
I spent a lot of time on. But any chance
I get, I would say we need different formats and
then a k A a team format because I completely
agree when you get teams together and there is an enthusiasm,
(33:36):
questions surrounding somebody else that you're pulling forward to win
whereas intended, you know, the normal circumstances, you don't really
care about anybody else who's in the hundred and twenty
eight field. You just care about who your next opponent is,
and you hope that it's ah, you know, it's a
thank you, all right. The last thing wanted to to
(34:01):
to ask you about you mentioned earlier that you you
watch a golf broadcast thinking of it as a broadcaster
as much as anything. One of the things that we
struggle within golf is it's a as you know, it's
a gentleman's game, which is a wonderful part of our sport,
but it also makes the announcing just way less interesting
than what I hear when I listen to tennis. Why
(34:23):
are why are tennis analysts so much more free with
their opinions than than golf analysts? Do you do you
do you notice that? You know? I'm right in the
middle of it. So I am with my friends who
are part of the ESP and Tennis family, and it
really is a It really is a family. It's not
we have our little squabbles, but for the most part,
(34:46):
I think there's an ease. I don't think any of
our our guys feel constrained by anything. You know, We've
got a couple of loose cannons like Brad Gilbert for examples,
and maybe to a less extent to Pam Schreiber will
throw in things that become the subject of some conversation. Um,
(35:08):
I mean, I'm glad you think that we have more
We sort of have more excitement in our broadcast and
golf on the other hand, you know, golf is what
it is. I'm not sure that I want to hear
the guy's going crazy, you know, It's it's not that
easy to go oh and are about a great drive,
because they are great drifts that happen all the time.
(35:30):
So my interest mainly watching a golf telecast is to
be educated. I just want to know about who the
guys are, giving me a little bit of their history,
their humanity and their accomplishment and so that I can
sort of get into the next hole. Well, that's slightly
off the subject of what of what you were asking me.
So because I do feel strongly that that golf has
(35:54):
done a good job of of different formats and if
that's continuing and there are other ways of presenting the sport,
I'm under percent for it and I think it would
help the game of golf. Well, we we hope so too.
We're we're trying. As as I mentioned that just getting
a mixed event has been difficult, and uh, trying to
get something in the Olympics that's beyond stroke play and
(36:15):
gets countries involves been a bit of a controversial topic
in our sport as well. Are you playing much golf
these days. I am still playing quite a lot. Unfortunately,
my game has deteriorated pretty dramatically in the last six months.
I'm not sure why. Um, and it's pretty disgusting to
(36:39):
be perfectly honest with you. And because uh, you know,
I had a very high opinion of my own talent
quotation and until this last year, so I played. I
still played tennis, and I still play and a bit
I play more golf in in tennis now because it
takes longer. For one thing, Well, I thank you so
much for taking the time to chat with me. I
(37:02):
really enjoyed it. It's I I love your work so much. Uh.
Everybody I know loves listening to you on on tennis,
and it's it's nice to hear your voice and know
that you you you love our sport golf as as
much as you as you do. And uh, I thank
you again for the insights. I'm sure we could go
all day talking about the ball in the game. But
(37:24):
so thank you so much, Cliff, I really appreciate it. Well,
I hope you enjoyed that chat with Cliff as much
as I did. It's so wonderful to hear his voice
right now. We don't get to hear live sports and
some of the announcers who make them special. And I
just love what ESPN does on tennis, and not just Cliff,
(37:45):
but Chrissy Effort and Pam Shriver and Brad Gilbert, as
he mentioned of course John McEnroe, all such enjoyable announcers
to listen to so opinionated. But as you know and
found out today, Cliff has his views too, and what
a life he's lived in his sport. And are we
lucky that he loves both tennis and golf. I would
love love to sit around listen to him and Jack
(38:06):
Nicholas discuss the elements of their their sports, and he's
drop on that conversation. It was fascinating though to learn
from him that how different some of the views are
of these tweaks, that that tennis has made too to
prevent just being a serve and ace game, and that
it is a different climate, different atmosphere than golf, where
(38:28):
there is more of a consumer element and a tie
into selling equipment to to golfers versus tennis, where it
really is is being done to try and help the sport. Fascinatingly,
I'd love to tell you that in the show notes.
I've got all sorts of interesting articles to read about
the tweaks they make to the balls at the at
the Grand Slam events in tennis, but it's it's a
it's a mysterious topic. If you go probe around the internet,
(38:51):
it's very hard to find good stories on that. Occasionally
you'll hear a McEnroe or Cliff Drysdale talk about a
little bit on the air, but it's something they don't
really advertise that much. It was also fascinating to to
learn that that that Federer and the Doll, the two
all time grades that we're getting to watch and hopefully
get to watch again soon, who've already given us so
(39:11):
much and hung around so long that that he feels
there longevity is not a product of these changes which
I have read people and heard people say that that
some of these things have been done to keep them around,
which seems kind of like a kind of a hair
brain ridiculous thing. I think it's just to make the
sport more interesting, and that's ultimately why a lot of
us have the views we have on power and golf
(39:33):
that there's more to just bombing the ball out there
and hitting a wedge onto a green and we'd love
to see the ball move a little bit more and
all that good stuff. So anyhow, I want to thank
you as always for listening to The Shack Show. It's
a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
my Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app. It's wonderful
and give you some great notifications when fresh shows download.
(39:54):
There's some excellent golf shows as you know from Page
Brandi and Shane Bacon and Maxi Homa and of course
hand Kney, so check those out and you can do
it on the app or an Apple podcast or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Thank you again for
listening to The Shock Show. We'll be back soon.
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Ever since I started dreaming about doing this show, I
have wanted to get people from other walks of life
(00:21):
who love golf on to discuss elements in their arena
of business or sport, to hear their perspective our sport,
and maybe to see the parallels. And and I've always
been fascinated by the parallels between tennis and golf. Even
though they look so radically different, they share quite a
bit I think in common in terms of, uh, who
(00:43):
plays the sports, the people who tend to like both
and tend to be good at both. And no one
has fascinated me more on that topic. And the person
I want to get on as soon as I could,
and that is Cliff Drysdale, the longtime ESPN tennis podcast.
He's the nineteen seventy two US Open doubles champion. Um
(01:04):
he was a finalist in the US Open. He has
been at ESPN as a broadcaster since nineteen seventy nine. Uh,
My dad, Lynn and Cliff announced some events in the
eighties together on tennis and I got to meet him
as a young man, but I haven't spoken to him
since that time. But as a fan of tennis, particularly
the Grand Slam events that are on ESPN. I just
(01:26):
love whenever Cliff is broadcasting. His voice is uh has
just a calming effect, especially in times like these. I thought, oh,
even more reason to talk to him. But selfishly, of course,
I have some views, as some of you might know,
on the role of technology, the influence of different things,
and that influence the way our sport is played at
(01:47):
all levels. So I know Tennis has made some changes
in recent years to their ball to make the Grand
Slam events more interesting, So I wanted to talk about
that with Cliff and also Team Tennis, which is has
some interesting parallels with what's going on in tennis, trying
to mimic things that are going on in golf. And
then of course in golf we have the Premier Golf
(02:08):
League concept that is a threat to the PGA Tour model,
but also one that may be shaped by some things
that are going on in tennis. Tennis is shaping some
of their things they've seen with our Ryder Cup in
different events. So he's a member of the International Tennis
Hall of Fame. He is the pioneer of the two
handed backhand, and he loves loves golf. And this is
(02:30):
Cliff dries Dale. I spoke to him just a bit
ago in Austin and Cliff, Uh, the thing I wanted
to ask you most first of all, is just simply,
how did you get into golf as somebody who was
an elite tennis player? Growing up in South Africa, we
lived in Port Elizabeth, South Africa. I was at school
there from about the time when I was let's say
(02:55):
eight or nine years old. We lived opposite the golf course,
the Port Elizabeth Golf Club, and that's where I learned
to play because my mother was an enthusiastic golfer and
she would go out and every so often I'd be
allowed to go out and hang hang out with her
and play golf, and that's how I started with golf.
(03:18):
But tennis was where in your life at that point.
Tennis was number one. Tennis was number one. Tennis was
my way of of that was there was sort of
who I was because there was a point I was
generally a pretty good athlete, and so I was good
at cricket also, and I played cricket, golf, tennis. We
(03:44):
were very much encouraged in in South Africa in those
years probably still to play a variety of different sports,
which is what I did. But I was I was
a good cricketer, and I was and and but tennis
was my thing because I was I was the best
inness player around and and so that became my thing.
(04:08):
Plus I love playing the game. Tennis are golf are both?
No I had. I've had a life along love affair
with golf from the time that I took it up.
It was just not it was It never occurred to
me to have taken seriously. For me, it was always
a fun thing to do and you know, a great,
(04:31):
great way to communicate with friends and and uh so
I and I never stopped, I mean from even on
the tour. The joy for me was to find a
place to play golf, and that's what I used to do.
I never met anyone who was more enthusiastic about golf
(04:52):
than Vitas Gerulitis. Because he would get up at five
block in the morning in Paris. I'll never forget and
take car out to one of the one of the
Paris golf courses and he'd be back ready for his shows,
for our shows at you know, at eleven o'clock in
the morning. I could never quite join him in that.
But what what was nice about it was that I
(05:16):
knew that he was playing every day, so if I
felt like playing, all I had to do was call
him and say where he playing today. He didn't do
that when he was competing, right, I didn't know him
really well because he was he was when he was competing,
because he was a generation after mine. But this was
when he joined ESPN and we were being broadcasts together.
(05:37):
And how did you get to meet Jack Nicholas and
get to know him? Um? I him in Lakeway, Texas. Uh.
He was doing a promotional around the golf so they
invited me to play golf with him, and golf and tennis.
We did a tennis thing at the World of Tennis
(05:57):
and then we went to the golf court was played
nine holes of golf with the pro um and the
tennis pro And so that was the first time I
met him, And I want to say that was in
probably the mid seventies UM. But then I really reconnected
(06:18):
with him well twice, once doing an interview with him
when I did British Open for ESPNUM, and that was
probably the nineties UM. And then but then I moved
to Miami, from North Carolina. And uh, that's when I
(06:43):
reconnected with Jack and Ch buck Holes, who was one
of my close friends, had a really close relationship with Jack,
still does. And so I got in on a little
four ball with with with Jack and myself and Butch
and and one other guy who's did a lot of
(07:05):
landscaping for for Jack at his house. So that became
a regular game and we would play, um, you know,
let's say once on the average, probably once a month
in the wintertime. And he loves some days. We kind
of think he almost loves tennis more than golf because
he's he's such a passionate fan of the sport. Have
(07:26):
you have you too discussed the two sports a decent amount, Yeah,
a lot, and uh, you know, we we tend to
change our minds called things. And but but he built
three beautiful gross courts at his house, which I'm sure
you know, uh, and and they are kept in in
(07:49):
such sensational shape because he is pretty anal about you know,
the way things should be with gross And consequently he
has he's beautiful grass courts. Now he's slowed down a
bit here lately. But and I left Miami three years ago,
so we have seen each other just from time to
(08:13):
time since that time. But I do know that he
is not as a He's not as interested in getting
out and playing Tennessee anymore. And I think that's more
a physical thing than anything sure with he loves it
more than golf. And I don't know, but but I
will say that it was always sort of like, Okay,
(08:34):
we're gonna play golf and then we're gonna play tennis.
And we used to come there and play at his
house and and I'm thinking, man, I'm dragging and he
is still out there, ready to play tennis until the
sun goes down. Well, we see him in the Royal
box at Wimbledon and putting on a jacket and tye
is not his favorite thing in the world. So when
(08:55):
you see that, you you know he loves the sports still.
It's for us, that's uh, it's wonderfully as you know,
he's just an incredible ambassador for for all of sports,
not not just golf, but we we love to hear
from it. So one of the things that I wanted
to speak to you about UM today and regarding Mr
(09:16):
Nicholas's views on kind of the evolution of our sport
are the interesting parallels between tennis and golf, and you
being someone who has played both for for for your life,
I think would be interesting to hear from as to uh,
how you see these things evolving and in particular, UH,
(09:39):
we have uh seen an improvement in tennis, at least
me as a casual fan, uh in recent years, where
the sport feels a little more enjoyable to watch, and
certain legends have managed to hang around and and and
a little more variety of styles seems to be coming back.
(09:59):
It's not like used to be. But I was wondering
if you could help us understand what has happened in tennis,
especially at the Grand Slam events, with the ball or
anything else they've done with surfaces to try and get
back some of the older characteristics of the sport. If
they have. I believe they have, though is that correct?
(10:20):
It's a very involved question because it's so important, uh
how they handle these things. In other words, my my
greatest nightmare is if we had uh eight out of
ten top players playing the John Isner kind of game
(10:42):
and trying his best to break serve at some point
knowing that he's never going to get broken. Um. So
so tennis wrestles with these things all the time. And
there's there's the opposite, which was probably the second most
boring thing you could watch in Tennessee is like Mess v.
(11:04):
Lander and it was a game of Vilas maybe playing
the final of the French Championships on clay. They're both
standing by and hitting the ball back to each other
like this was just a gigantic ping pong table, and
that was also deathly boring. Um, what has happened here
(11:25):
and what has made it so exciting of this last
generation is the variety that that that that Federal and
Novak Djokovic and Rafa Nadal to a lesser extent, Andy
Murray have been able to bring to the game because
neither one of them relies on any one shot. They
rely on this combination that they have and the true
(11:49):
athletic geniuses. But the ball question, it's it's it's so
easy to change the character of of a this contest
by changing the character of the tennis ball, the more
you're allowed to fluff up, and the slower that it becomes,
(12:11):
the longer in theory the rallies should last. And they
have experimented with different balls and the different characteristics and
continue to do because it has to be done in
concert with the surface. So you know, you can make
a hard court like at the US Open or in Australia,
(12:34):
for example, as slow or as quick as you like
by just the amount of of sand that you put
in the top layer of acrylic um. And so the
things have sort of got to work together and can
now it's not as easy on grass, but they definitely
Wimbledon slowed the game down on grass by doing two things.
(12:58):
Making the grass core it's a lot harder and uh
and and and and a lot easier in a certain way,
and then slowing the balls now so that the servant
volley was not the only thing that could win points.
That started with Bob when he was able to stay
back and and when matches on, you know, wimbled it,
(13:23):
and when the tournament because before that was unthinkable, you
know in my era, and and a little later than that.
So when Bob came along was able to win the
French and when Wimbledon, that's what made it so special.
But this is a constantly evolving question though. If it's
constantly evolving, and you have to re examine it because
(13:47):
you've also got the strings in a tennis racket that
make a huge difference. You've got the tennis rackets itself,
so you're dealing with not just the ball and the surface,
you're also with the with the upgraded technology that these
record manufacturers keep coming up with, and you have to
try to balance those things. Is that controversial in tennis,
(14:10):
these attempts to make it better, because as you know,
in golf, and you know I'm sure from talking to
Mr Nicholas, it's very controversial to have that discussion because
their financial interest thinking of selling golf balls. But is
it something you deal with in tennis that way? No,
I don't think. I think. Look, the main thing for tennis,
(14:32):
and it should be the same for golf, is just
that we want the sport to grow, and we want
the sport to be exciting, and it's far more important
to to have a good presentation than it is to
worry about where the Dunlop is going to be able
to make some inroads into the tennis record business. Again,
(14:53):
so I don't see that as a as a major
issue tennis. I don't see the manufacturer is pulling any
the eddy which way. The professional product that Tennessee is
producing now In the end, the last generation is as
good as it has ever been. Um, there was a
time when I thought that, you know, the Agasty Center's
(15:14):
courier chun here could never be surpassed. But it was.
I'm gonna take a quick break and then I'm going
to ask you a question about your view of this
element of golf. All right, we're back. So you do
(15:43):
you watch a lot of golf? Still? I do not
watch a lot of golf. I watched generally the majors,
which is which is probably true of a lot of
people that that that's the way it is, and and
and and reocually interested in it. More on the technical side.
The sporting side for me, I don't is not that compelling. Yeah,
(16:08):
do you see some of the parallels with with kind
of a power game and uh, the interest in that,
the the sort of short term excitement that's created by
that with golf being similar to the ones that that
probably fueled people's initial fascination with with as you mentioned
in Isner or previously, Pete Sampras, do you see that
(16:30):
those parallels between the two sports, I do not. I
have not. I have not noticed that. Look for me,
I'm looking at I'm more a participant than I am
a spectator. So if I'm watching the golf telecasts of
the Masters, for example, I'm fascinated by what I learned,
(16:53):
because there's obviously a lot that I don't truly don't
in order I pay any particular attention to um and
I look at it more from the television business and
the fact that I would really like for the announcers
to fill us in a little, you know, in as
much depth as possible as to what's going on and
the kind of things that you're talking about. Um Uh.
(17:18):
I do not see golf just in general as a
general observation as as as a product, ah in a
negative way. I don't. I don't think that. I don't
think that's true. I don't think that that god the
golf presentation is is anything other than it's always been,
(17:40):
which is really top class. I just think that the
thing that most tenvis and golf struggling with is continuing,
you know, to to to try to upgrade the numbers
of people that are playing. And and and that that
that part, I think is the challenging thought. It is
(18:01):
and and and it's we have the the two sports
that are the most played by people and watched, and
it's in and in particular in golf, it's it's really
shifted in in recent years to two very focused on
power and getting more distance and buying more distance, and
so the numbers haven't grown though with that, with with
(18:22):
the clubs being easier to hit than ever. And something
similar happened with tennis and the rackets, and I believe
it really didn't that the larger racket. Would you say,
has it has it helped grow the sport or has
it sustained the sport? Again, it's it's that is just
one component of so many components that changed the character
(18:43):
of the sport. The bigger record definitely helped the viability
of being able to play different different shots more effectively,
like top spin for example, and the strings became a
part of that, a part of that dynamic. And again
just so many different, you know, different things that you
(19:06):
have to consider more Southern golf in tennis, because the
surfaces in tennis are so different golf. You've got different
grosses and obviously you've got different speeds, etcetera, etcetera, but
you basically playing on gross no matter where you are.
Look at the one thing that Jack told me that
I'm sure you're probably aware of, and this was when
(19:27):
I interviewed him at the British Open that year, and
then he said that that golfers should all be playing
with the same ball. Yes, yes, just like we do
in tennis. Is that part of the discussion, Yes, he's
and he it's really interesting. He's been very consistent on
that topic for a long time. And if you can
believe it, Cliff people actually criticize him for his stance
(19:51):
and are are hard on him, even though he's the
greatest player who ever lived, even though he is coming
at it from a perspective of a big picture, not
a selfish perspective, and he's been doing it since the
late seventies, and yet um, people sort of mock him
for for this stance. Now Tiger has come to his
(20:14):
side of things as well. His view is the ball.
Both of them feel like the ball obviously goes too
far and then it now moves less and so you
see less shot making, you see less shot shaping, and
you see, uh, it harder for a truly elite player
to differentiate themselves in their view, um. And then they've
(20:36):
designed courses, both of them, and it comes from a
point of view of the absurdity of just trying to
keep expanding the footprint of the game to accommodate a
small number of people. So he's been very consistent on
that view. And it's, uh, it's a it's a big
part of our sport and a big dilemma we're facing
right now and then now in this downturn or this,
(20:59):
this cause this at this point where we're not playing,
it's it's a chance to reflect on it again. And
that's why I'm fascinated by the parallels with with what
what what tennis has done to make it more interesting. Yeah,
on that topic, Uh, I was hoping to kind of
get your your perspective on Roger and Rafa and and
(21:19):
and their longevity because another component we're seeing in this
is the way golf is played now. It's very power driven.
It's very much go and have a great few years
and then you're gone, and the chance to have a
longer career, either because we have more injuries or just
because that form of golf isn't very interesting to play. Um,
(21:41):
and we're seeing a turnover rate and sort of a uh,
it's harder to differentiate yourself, do you feel that these
changes with that Tennis has made to too with the ball,
these tweaks has helped uh keep Roger and Rafa around?
Are they just unique talent so would have done this
(22:01):
no matter what happened? No, I think they. I think
that first of all, I think they've injected each other
with an quoture here, that that that keeps them going.
That that's true of Novak as well. Unfortunately Andy Murray
sort of by the wayside now. But I don't think
that there's anything technical that has kept them going and
(22:26):
and has allowed them to enjoy such longevity. I think
that's purely part of their their their physical makeup. Um,
look at that. It's it's an incredibly difficult sport, I think,
much more difficult than golf is in in so many
ways because your your conditioning has got to be absolutely
(22:48):
superb to play for four hours in the in the
hot sun, running running side, right side, right to side.
Um that it's just And then the mental side of
the game is probably as compelling as it is in golf,
because even though it's a moving ball and it's different,
(23:13):
it is just compelling. I think it's about the strength
of mind of these guys, plus the fact that winning
begets winning and once you start winning, then that makes
it more fun and more enjoyable. And they have been
able to stay so consistently at the top that why
(23:33):
would they stop while it can play as well as
they do. So I don't think it's the product of
of the change the circumstances and the courts and the balls,
and I just don't think that plays much of a
part in this um I look, I think the a
TP is interested in in presenting the sport in the
(23:55):
best possible way as well. Those guys have had a
lot of input in that, and I do think that
the tournaments very close attention to what the top players
say about the conditions and about the balls, etcetera. Well,
I'm gonna take one more break, and then you've set
me up perfectly for for for the other topic I
(24:15):
wanted to UH ask you about here on the Shack Show.
So you mentioned the a t P. You were the
first president. Is that correct? Correct? And you have seen
(24:36):
quite a few uh debates, controversies elements. I've heard you
um on telecasts and in in interviews mentioned you'd like
to see the structure more like what the PGA Tour
does UM, And I don't want to go down all
the various messes, but I that I'm sure you've seen
(24:57):
over the years and debates. In fact, I even saw
today that Roger mentioned it's time to get the men
and women all under one umbrella. But what I really
wanted to to dive into with you because I saw
a fascinating discussion with you and Chrissie. I believe at
the Australian Open this year. I believe it was about
the Labor Cup and and team events and we I
(25:19):
don't know if you know, there's a group that is
trying to propose a golf the top players leave the
PGA Tour and go to this new concept that's that's
individual tournaments, but it ends with a team element and
it's based off of Formula one. And you would have
the first few years Tiger Woods might have a team
(25:41):
and Phil Mickelson might have a team. And I'm curious, uh,
in all the years of of tennis is various dances
with the team component. UM, if you could help us
understand what tennis is grappling with on that that front,
uh as as is is it thinking of trying to
make it sport more interesting in the weeks that are
(26:03):
not the Grand Slam events? Is that about right? No,
I would say that that is is definitely not. Look,
so let me take a step back, because I find
that what you're saying is very interesting and a really
good question and topic. Look, I have been saying for
years that tennis should be more like golf in inasmuch
(26:28):
as golf has, at least from where I said, seems
to experiment with different ways to present the sport. Um,
you've got team competitions, uh, and then you have within
a sport, the different ways of of counting who who's winning. Uh,
(26:51):
Like you know, the Writer Cup and it's got I
guess each day of a different format slightly. That's fascinating
stuff and uh, and it's just there's then the Skins
game that you know obviously a very different story. But
but but it was different also and it was exciting
(27:14):
and it was to me it was fun to see
different formats. And then as you said, bringing the women in,
uh is something that I don't think golf has done
much of obviously not like tennis. So I would not
disagree with that. But again, I think that golf has
been a lot more proactive. And I have the sense
that golf sits down at the end of every every
(27:37):
year like they should, and like most sports in this
country do, and say listen, how can we make this
and how can we present this better? I was I've
been upset with tennis for years that we have had
so little of that. That said, in the last couple
of years, we UH at ESPN sat down with a
(27:58):
whole group of of administrators from both the majors and
the a t P and the w t A and
they were nice enough to get together and allow us
to make a presentation which basically said to that to
this group, we at ESPN have spent a lot of
money on the sport of tennis and and really, bottom
(28:21):
line is all we are interested in doing is presenting
the sport in a better way, making it more exciting,
making it more lively, making it more fun for the
people for our viewers to watch. No, we're not interested
in trying to take over the game or a segment
of the game noways no ulterior motive. And I think
that that meeting was the start of the administrators of
(28:47):
this game, as disparate as they are, um to to
really give some thought to the way that the game
is presented, and it has. It has to a large
extent I think worked. I think it's we've now got
the Labor Cup, which is a different format. We've got
a new format Davis Cup, which I think has been
(29:11):
a disaster, but at least there's an attempt to change
up what was something that was way way out of
date Davis Cup, and so and then the Australians have
got this this a TP Cup, which I think has
probably got the best choints of success because it's it's
it's gonna it has this team competition concept. Within a
(29:34):
season just before the Australian Open, I think golf showed
the way. Tennis has been slow to follow, but now
beginning to realize that they've got to get on board
with more exciting ways to present a game. What went
wrong with Team Tennis in the It was a late
seventies I believe, and it had incredible names and and
(29:58):
behind it it seemed like all the top players played.
What Why did it not succeed? That's another difficult question answer.
I played it and and and yeah we had some
you know, Labo, who is at his best at that time.
He played some rosewall Um. It had the names. Uh,
(30:18):
It's it's not clear to me why it didn't succeed
other than the fact that that it was competing with
the tour, so that the majority of the enthusiasm for
the summer, which is when World Team Tennis was played.
It has survived, it still happens. The problem with it
(30:40):
now is that the numbers for the top players have
become so staggeringly high that it's very difficult to make
it work as a business. So you no longer get
the real big names playing because you can't play a
man sickly. The A T P Cup you described as similar,
(31:03):
almost identical really to the concept that that this group
is trying to do in golf. And one of the
things that it's that's made them attractive to people is
that the younger generation is more attracted to team sports
than they are individual sports. Obviously there's a financial element
that they that's driving at the valuation of us having
(31:25):
a franchise. The team here in l A was the
l A Strings. I believe in team tennis. Who did
you play for? I played for the San Diego Flyers
and then the Anaheim orange Es. Wow. Uh, where did
you play in. That was at the convention Center or
the because it was indoors always right, the the Anaheim
(31:48):
was what what what what are the options for Anaheim? Yeah,
it was probably the convention Center. There was no arena
then and the strings played of course at the form.
I know that from when my dad worked for the
Lakers and went to a team tennis. I can still
remember it. But so it's it's uh, it's what it's.
There's a there's a financial element of in the in
the ego element of of franchise owners, and that part
(32:10):
of it is driving the money side. But there is
something too. People no longer being as infatuated with individual sports,
and so it's something that has really shaken things up
in golf in terms of people's thinking of our are
just having forty events a year and and and spread
all over the world and different tours. But you've got
(32:31):
to admit, you've got to write a cup and well
the President's guy and that's actually and when people see
that kind of competition, Cliff, the emotion that comes out
both because of match play and because of playing for
a group has shown the weekly stroke play to be
very boring, and I wonder if the same thing has
(32:52):
happened in tennis where where when when people do see
the Labor Cup or I mean in the Davis Cup
with its peak, that it may makes other than those
great moments in the Grand Slam quarters and semis or
maybe the nighttime in the US Open, it makes the
rest of the year look pretty dull. Yes, listen, I agree.
(33:13):
Let me make it very clear when I said that
I've been trying to fight this fight for years. Uh,
it has not been a you know, say anything that
I spent a lot of time on. But any chance
I get, I would say we need different formats and
then a k A a team format because I completely
agree when you get teams together and there is an enthusiasm,
(33:36):
questions surrounding somebody else that you're pulling forward to win
whereas intended, you know, the normal circumstances, you don't really
care about anybody else who's in the hundred and twenty
eight field. You just care about who your next opponent is,
and you hope that it's ah, you know, it's a
thank you, all right. The last thing wanted to to
(34:01):
to ask you about you mentioned earlier that you you
watch a golf broadcast thinking of it as a broadcaster
as much as anything. One of the things that we
struggle within golf is it's a as you know, it's
a gentleman's game, which is a wonderful part of our sport,
but it also makes the announcing just way less interesting
than what I hear when I listen to tennis. Why
(34:23):
are why are tennis analysts so much more free with
their opinions than than golf analysts? Do you do you
do you notice that? You know? I'm right in the
middle of it. So I am with my friends who
are part of the ESP and Tennis family, and it
really is a It really is a family. It's not
we have our little squabbles, but for the most part,
(34:46):
I think there's an ease. I don't think any of
our our guys feel constrained by anything. You know, We've
got a couple of loose cannons like Brad Gilbert for examples,
and maybe to a less extent to Pam Schreiber will
throw in things that become the subject of some conversation. Um,
(35:08):
I mean, I'm glad you think that we have more
We sort of have more excitement in our broadcast and
golf on the other hand, you know, golf is what
it is. I'm not sure that I want to hear
the guy's going crazy, you know, It's it's not that
easy to go oh and are about a great drive,
because they are great drifts that happen all the time.
(35:30):
So my interest mainly watching a golf telecast is to
be educated. I just want to know about who the
guys are, giving me a little bit of their history,
their humanity and their accomplishment and so that I can
sort of get into the next hole. Well, that's slightly
off the subject of what of what you were asking me.
So because I do feel strongly that that golf has
(35:54):
done a good job of of different formats and if
that's continuing and there are other ways of presenting the sport,
I'm under percent for it and I think it would
help the game of golf. Well, we we hope so too.
We're we're trying. As as I mentioned that just getting
a mixed event has been difficult, and uh, trying to
get something in the Olympics that's beyond stroke play and
(36:15):
gets countries involves been a bit of a controversial topic
in our sport as well. Are you playing much golf
these days. I am still playing quite a lot. Unfortunately,
my game has deteriorated pretty dramatically in the last six months.
I'm not sure why. Um, and it's pretty disgusting to
(36:39):
be perfectly honest with you. And because uh, you know,
I had a very high opinion of my own talent
quotation and until this last year, so I played. I
still played tennis, and I still play and a bit
I play more golf in in tennis now because it
takes longer. For one thing, Well, I thank you so
much for taking the time to chat with me. I
(37:02):
really enjoyed it. It's I I love your work so much. Uh.
Everybody I know loves listening to you on on tennis,
and it's it's nice to hear your voice and know
that you you you love our sport golf as as
much as you as you do. And uh, I thank
you again for the insights. I'm sure we could go
all day talking about the ball in the game. But
(37:24):
so thank you so much, Cliff, I really appreciate it. Well,
I hope you enjoyed that chat with Cliff as much
as I did. It's so wonderful to hear his voice
right now. We don't get to hear live sports and
some of the announcers who make them special. And I
just love what ESPN does on tennis, and not just Cliff,
(37:45):
but Chrissy Effort and Pam Shriver and Brad Gilbert, as
he mentioned of course John McEnroe, all such enjoyable announcers
to listen to so opinionated. But as you know and
found out today, Cliff has his views too, and what
a life he's lived in his sport. And are we
lucky that he loves both tennis and golf. I would
love love to sit around listen to him and Jack
(38:06):
Nicholas discuss the elements of their their sports, and he's
drop on that conversation. It was fascinating though to learn
from him that how different some of the views are
of these tweaks, that that tennis has made too to
prevent just being a serve and ace game, and that
it is a different climate, different atmosphere than golf, where
(38:28):
there is more of a consumer element and a tie
into selling equipment to to golfers versus tennis, where it
really is is being done to try and help the sport. Fascinatingly,
I'd love to tell you that in the show notes.
I've got all sorts of interesting articles to read about
the tweaks they make to the balls at the at
the Grand Slam events in tennis, but it's it's a
it's a mysterious topic. If you go probe around the internet,
(38:51):
it's very hard to find good stories on that. Occasionally
you'll hear a McEnroe or Cliff Drysdale talk about a
little bit on the air, but it's something they don't
really advertise that much. It was also fascinating to to
learn that that that Federer and the Doll, the two
all time grades that we're getting to watch and hopefully
get to watch again soon, who've already given us so
(39:11):
much and hung around so long that that he feels
there longevity is not a product of these changes which
I have read people and heard people say that that
some of these things have been done to keep them around,
which seems kind of like a kind of a hair
brain ridiculous thing. I think it's just to make the
sport more interesting, and that's ultimately why a lot of
us have the views we have on power and golf
(39:33):
that there's more to just bombing the ball out there
and hitting a wedge onto a green and we'd love
to see the ball move a little bit more and
all that good stuff. So anyhow, I want to thank
you as always for listening to The Shack Show. It's
a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
my Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app. It's wonderful
and give you some great notifications when fresh shows download.
(39:54):
There's some excellent golf shows as you know from Page
Brandi and Shane Bacon and Maxi Homa and of course
hand Kney, so check those out and you can do
it on the app or an Apple podcast or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Thank you again for
listening to The Shock Show. We'll be back soon.
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