May 4, 2020 • 54 mins
In episode 9 of the Shack Show, author and sports writer in the New York Post, Brett Cyrgalis, joins Geoff Shackelford to discuss the amount of science and analytics that's overwhelmed the game of golf. Brett also shares how he approached his book releasing on May 5th called: GOLF'S HOLY WAR: The Battle for the Soul of a Game in an Age of Science.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Welcome to the Shack Show. You know, this is a
strange time to launch a book, but I couldn't think
(00:20):
of a book more perfect for the times and where
we've been and in this moment where we have a
chance to kind of reflect on where things have gone
and where they're going. And Bret Sir Gallis did not
know that that would be the case when he started
this in two thousand and twelve, but he has now
(00:40):
finished and on May five, will be releasing with his
partners at Avit Reader Press, a division of Simon Schuster,
a book called Golf's Holy War, The Battle for the
Soul of a Game in an Age of Science, and
it's does exactly what the title says. It's got an
incredible group of endorsements. Me Diaz of course, longtime writer
(01:02):
for Golf digestant Golf Channel analyst now Tom Dope role,
famous golf course architect, Michael Bamberger who was a subject
of episode one here The Shack Show, and Randall Shamblee.
And what Brett does in this book is is really
sensational in taking a reporter's approach. He's a new York
Post writer who covers the Rangers. He is also though
(01:23):
covered golf, tennis, baseball, loves all sports, lives on Long
Island as a high school golfer, as he'll describe in
the show, got a little bit away from golf, back
into it competitively, and he traveled all over the place
to talk to some of the various people on the
vast spectrum of of approaches to golf, and he considers
(01:45):
the history of the sport and all sorts of interesting things. Anyhow,
in this time where we are pondering the role of
of data technology science in golf, I just couldn't think
of a better book to read and consider. He has
temperament is way more even keel than mine is. And
he doesn't take a position. He just wants to present
(02:06):
you with a lot of different ideas and and uh so,
I really hope you enjoy this chat with bretzor Gallis
as much as I did. You. You've taken on an
ambitious topic. You have set out to to do some
interesting things. How did a primarily a hockey writer decide
(02:27):
to tackle this subject of golf and the age of
science and and the question of whether it's um impacting
the game in a in a good or bad way.
That's a very fair question, Jeff. So I guess this
this story, the origin story, uh, and I'm trying not
to make this too bell, is that I played, uh
(02:51):
competitively in high school. Um. I didn't play in college
after I went to Villanova. After school, I ended up
getting a paper job at the New York Post in
the sports department. I was an agate clerk, started as
an age clerk, which nobody knows what is anymore because
the aget pages of the stats and standings. And I
(03:12):
was doing that, yeah, yeah, waiting you know what I
was doing. I was waiting on your Dodgers and Giants
finished late night games. I hated it. I hated it. Uh. No,
I shouldn't say, hey, I love the job. The job was,
you know, being a kid out of college, I was,
you know, a pig and what have you? So? Um,
(03:33):
you know, so from there, you know, I started. I
I covered a little bit of everything. Um. And I
was at an outing golf out and I didn't really
play that much, but I was at a golf outing. Uh.
And it was the opening of Pound Ridge that Pete
up there. So I think it was two thousand eight. Uh,
and every one of us has been one of these
(03:55):
outings where the carts are lined up and you know,
you're on the putting green or eating a box lunch
to sliced apples or renab yet um, and there's a
presentation going on in the range. And I really wasn't,
you know, paying attention, But I happened to look down
at this point and there was a guy down there
who was his name was Skip Latella, and he was
giving a lesson to a woman who was standing on
(04:18):
these hard rubber balloons. And he called them flex ord disks.
And it didn't seem that out of line. I've seen
things similar. And he kind of took her back in
the position and it was like okay, and he said, actually,
what I'm doing now is these these disks are creating
static electricity, which is helping open up her neurotransmitters in
(04:39):
her brain, which is making the communication between her brain
and muscles clearer. So I'm actually teaching her how to
relearn a complex modern pattern subconsciously. Right, So nobody's paying attention.
I don't know why I was, but I said, what
the hell is this guy talking about? You know, so
(04:59):
I walked over to him and said, what the hell
are you talking about? UM? And I started finding out
about you know, how he uses these things. I said,
you know who who uses these? He sends me to
David Glenn's out New Jersey, former National Teacher of the Year.
David Glenn's got a guy at his range. UM, guy
by the name of Henry Ellison, who was like the
(05:20):
exact opposite. He had been close to science and then
had this big divorce with science, became this kind of spiritual,
esoteric teacher who I saw make connections with his students
like I've never seen before. UM. So I was like, hey,
here's the conflict, Like what has happened to golf? Well,
I have been you know, like my nose down in
(05:42):
inc you know, and not really paying super attention to
the nitty gritty of the game more than like just
what was happening in the pro game. Uh. And I
was like, Okay, maybe it's a magazine article. And then
I kind of started like expanding out from that and
realized it was kind of a book and and there
was an avenue to explore, um, this conflict between kind
(06:06):
of science and art, this old you know, the new
age and the traditional uh, and where it took me
as just there's so many interesting little rabbit holes of
how this really what the question of modernity is, like,
how do we either embrace technology or resist technology? And
how that question has projected itself on the game during
(06:29):
this time. So it's been a it was a really
interesting and fun thing to do as a reporter, go
make up every phone call and and find chase every
lead you can think of, trying to find the most
interesting story you can. So that's kind of how it
came about. Yeah, that's great. And so when was that
that out? In? Was two thousand and eight? Uh, and
(06:51):
I got I got the book contract in two thousand
twelves and and and and and the and and just
since the book contract was signed, the the number of
things that have changed probably added to your uh stress
doing this book. I mean, it's just it was. Yeah,
it was a constant, a constant battle of a lot
(07:12):
of oh crap moments. You know, just what is that
I'm still having them the books coming out and you know,
the books out on the fifth and I'm still having
these moments? What is that? I haven't heard of that?
And so I tried to make it kind of as
timeless as possible, where here's a snapshot of what was
happening at this time. Uh, and it seems like a
(07:36):
pretty significant time in the history of technology in the game.
So I tried not to get too much into you know, equipment,
the specific equipment news and stuff like that, because that
gets antiquated very fast, as we all know it does. Yeah. Uh,
so you have covered a lot of different sports, and
(07:58):
obviously you love golf, but how would you compare golf's
uh changes and and this sort of underlying struggle that
you You do a great job in the book of
trying to cover again all these different elements without getting
too far into the weeds, which is what I really
like about it. It's unlike me, who just I just
(08:18):
went right after things with with opinion and things that
I thought stunk you. You are providing a read for
a larger audience, and and one probably a little more
open minded than mine. But but compared to because every
sport is facing these these issues with analytics and different things,
(08:38):
is golf the most extreme version? You think, well, you know, golf.
Golf is a game that really lends itself to people
who are thoughtful like that's kind of the way the
game is played. You kind of have to ask yourself
these questions, these relatively deep questions that other athletes don't write.
(09:01):
You know that. You know, you're a football player, you're
running back right, you're following the play, you're following the coach,
and you're trying to be as prepared as possible. But
golfers have all this time to think, you know, not
only walking up to the shot, but over the shot
and and there. It's such a complicated motion and there's
so many things that can go wrong that are outside
of your control too. So, uh, when it comes to analytics,
(09:25):
I mean and and that you know that includes the
science of track man and three D analysis and force
plates and all of that stuff as well. Um, I
think I think most great players have realized that there
needs to be a balance between that and the feel
(09:45):
and the artistry of it. And you know, the how
that pie gets sliced up as different for each person.
But I think the you know, the analytics have changed
it in in the fact that now things that we're
pas down anecdotally are known to be either true or
false because they're being proven by this science. Um, you know,
(10:09):
I always go back to I think one of the
lasting quotes that's going to stick with Tiger Woods when
we're gonna say this for years in decades, is you know,
he said he's playing his best when field meets real.
So it's when he what he's feeling is equaling itself
out in the track man numbers and everything else. So
(10:32):
I think that's a really good example of kind of
how you can find this balance. So analytics has changed
things a lot because because instructors and coaches need to
know all of this stuff, so does everybody. I mean,
you don't like you you probably know this from golf
course architecture too. Is that that's starting to come into
how people are thinking about designing golf courses now in
(10:54):
terms of the data of where shots are and what
shots are being valued if they're close to hazards are not. Yeah,
you know, And so it's kind of it has permeated
the game. I don't think it's changed the game as
much as baseball or something like that, but it's definitely different.
It's interesting, though, you you just mentioned three different things
in that that answer. Tiger Woods you mentioned well, of course,
(11:17):
and now I think about Sean fully Um, who's in
the book as an instructor, who has now he's pulling
back on on use of track Man, and he was
really one of the first out there to use it.
Tiger Is is wavering and from what I've seen, but
he's also you described how that there's always been a
(11:39):
recognition by people and players of that balance. And I
and you also deal with this in the book, But
I feel like we're the one sport where the financial
interests have tend to cloud most people's views on this subject.
Whatever whatever component of the game we're talking about in
(12:02):
this this sort of battle between skill and natural skill
and and kind of playing the game the way it
was meant to be played, etcetera, etcetera, versus the technological battle. Um,
did you know going in to doing this book how
much the the economic or business side drives the way
(12:25):
people think about this topic. I can't say I knew
that the depth of that, Um, but it makes a
lot of sense when you start getting into it, you
know what I mean. I have a chapter called Technology
for Profit, which to me started as I went to
t P I, because that's supposed to be the cutting
(12:46):
edge of science, right the titles performance in and UM.
Very soon you find out that the reason it exists
not only that physical place, but all of the certification
and everything that comes out of t p I is
because while you line was a brilliant businessman, titlist had
the the market share, the biggest market share of golf balls.
(13:11):
So they wanted people to enjoy the game, play it
for longer periods of time, and continue to play it.
And because the longer they played it, the more titleist
golf balls they ever buying. You know. So TPR became
this cutting edge, scientific place, and they became this brand
because it was driving their business, not it wasn't altruistic um.
(13:35):
And they did a lot of great things and they
still do a lot of great things that you know,
I guess that's kind of the way innovation comes about
in a lot of industries really, I mean profits driving innovation, UM.
And you see it in a lot of different realms
of golf too. I mean, just the way the way
Taylor made fits clubs, the way the PGA Tours using
(13:56):
strokes gained, you know, to try to get people more
engaged in players, to try to get a younger audience
that is a little bit more analytical. UM. So yeah,
I mean like that's it's definitely part of it. And
I really think that profit drives a lot of innovation
and always has. Yeah. I just feel though that we
(14:17):
we tend to give into it a little too much
and worry about it, and it's it's led to some
some issues in the sport. Um. And that's just what
my book was was was about mostly U And you know,
I think oddly that the data doesn't really back up
that economically the game is is in a better place
(14:38):
because of a lot of these things. UM. But you
also spend a lot of time though on on how
much of this helps people self improve their game, their
outlook on the game. UM. After talking to all these
different people, do you do you feel like this embrace
(15:00):
certain elements of of of science has made people enjoy
the game or some people? Yeah? I do, I do
think some people, UM, because I think part of I
think part of the question and part of the reason
this is becoming this has become such a conflict now
(15:22):
is because people are with all of this information and
data now at our fingertips. Well beyond golf, people are
reaching for things that are more concrete, you know, the
way the way people invest, the way people think about
the world is they want data and they want to
analyze that data, and they want it to be they
want everything to be more concrete. So I think that
(15:45):
does give people solace in some regard um, you know,
And it really comes back to kind of how do
you how do you view the world? Is it a
inherently solvable place or is it inherently mysterious? And you
don't you maybe you'll never really come up with an answer,
So how and how do you go? So how do
you go about getting better at the game? Do you
(16:07):
want to do you want to embrace ambiguity and enjoy
it or do you want to reach for something concrete?
So I do think that you know, I we all
know guys that we've played with and women that we've
played with that draw for the concrete. They want to tip.
You know. That's why that's why the magazines have existed
for so long. Everyone's looking for that one tip. That's
(16:28):
why Ben Hogan and The Secret was so such an
obsessive thing for people, because a lot of people this
this modern mindset that you can grab ahold of something
and if you just get that one thing then you'll
have the answer. And maybe it's not that simple, but
that you know that doesn't mean that a lot of
people don't feel better by doing that. Um, we're gonna
(16:51):
take a quick breakcare on the Shack Show, and then
after that we're going to discuss how all of this
could possibly be changing drastically for this pandemic. We'll be
right back with the Bret Sagalas, author of Glully War,
and we will be discussing all sorts of fun stuff
after this break from one of our sponsors. All right, Bret,
(17:22):
so uh we now you are. I'm launching a podcast
in the middle of a global pandemic. You are releasing
a book. You live on Long Island. Um, so I'm
sure you feel like I did starting this. It's it's
such a strange time to be doing these things. And
yet um, once you set aside and think about the
(17:43):
suffering and the people who've who have gone through so much,
you also at some point have to look ahead and
think about life after this moment. And why I think
your book is the timing is it is actually perfect.
You may not think, um, but you are. You're You've
documented this, this moment and this evolution of the sport,
(18:06):
and now here we are and people have been deprived
of the game a little bit, either watching it or
playing it, and they are soon to be allowed to
go back and play it, probably sooner as an activity
than other things because of the way golf is played.
How do you think this will impact the white people thinking,
(18:28):
and in particular as it as it relates to this
quest to get better and the science and and the
the emphasis on on so much science in the game.
Do you think that's going to change now? Well, you know,
in general, I really hope that um, this moment, as
terrible as it is, and and being in New York,
(18:49):
I mean, we really feel it, and it's it's really
an awful time. But if there's a positive to be
taken out of it, I hope it's that we can
all slow down and a little bit and we can
all be a little bit kinder to each other and
see the common humanity we have. And and the way
that translates to golf too is I hope, you know,
(19:11):
I hope we appreciate it a little more. I hope
we kind of appreciate everything a little bit. But but
being able to go out on a golf course and
and practically I mean like carrying your bag, talking to
the person next to you, you know, making it a
little bit simpler time, making it not making it not
a rush, making it not a trophy game of of
(19:33):
how fancy can your place be? You know. I think
I think there might be a little more appreciation for
the simple things in life. I hope so. And I
think that translates to golf in a good way because
people are going to want to get outdoors and it
is a social activity where it's you know, practically, it's
not like a concert. You're not jam next to somebody,
(19:55):
you know, and you can do it without really being
h incredibly risky in terms of spreading the virus. So
I think it could help us kind of heal and
come out of this period, at least for those of
us that really like it. Um And with science, I mean,
that's always going to be there. I mean, there's always
(20:15):
gonna be people longing to snow their attack angle and
launch angle and spin rates, you know, and if that
helps you enjoy the game, then then great. But maybe
we become a little less obsessive with perfection, because really,
when you look at golf, what is it accept a
game besides how bad is your bad You know, you
(20:36):
never hit a perfect shot, you never make a perfect swing.
It's just how bad is your bad. It's all bad shots.
It's just a level of how bad they are. So
maybe we can have a little more appreciation for the
imperfect and kind of embracing that side of it. That
is my sense that already people have had that awakening
(20:56):
or or awareness just not having the option to go
play when they normally would play and do what they
want to do. I don't know how long that'll last. Um,
but then you know that you look at what the
tour pros are saying, and and and not much. They've
been pretty quiet the last few weeks, which is good.
But but but a few have spoken up and and uh,
(21:18):
if you have said some things they probably will regret someday.
Just just sounding a little bit out of touch with
with the world. But it's just kind of going back
to the fact that you've you've covered a lot of sports. Um,
golf is to me, this you call it in the
(21:38):
Star of the subtitle is a battle for the soul
of the game. And I feel like the soul of
the game has been lost a little bit with some
of these things and the inability to to grasp um
the kind of the core values, the whatever you want
to call it, the balance and now you never really
quite in the book give your v you after taking
(22:01):
in all these uh different perspectives things from like I said,
Sean Foley, the golf machine, you you do, golf architecture,
you look at the a t P. I Uh was
I assume that was just? Was that always the plan
to not to be to come at this as a
reporter and and and somebody who's sharing just what you're
(22:23):
observing in these different sectors of the sport. Yeah, yeah,
it was the plan. Um. I'm kind of of that
old school realm where the reporter is not the story.
Right if you can, if you can tell the story
good enough, you don't need to be in it. Um.
So you know, the only first the only time the
first person in the book is in the prologue where
I explained that I tell that story about meeting Skip
(22:45):
Lateell and how the book started, and then in the
epilogue to where I kind of tell this story about
this whimsical trip I made to band and Dunes, the
Shivist Iron Society. Um, only because I think that kind
of wraps up. That's probably as close as I get
to making an opinion, because I just wanted to present
it to both sides and say, there is this conflict, right,
(23:09):
and here's how if you are on the science side,
here's the best way to understand what's happening on the
other side, and vice versa. So I just wanted to
present the information. Um. In terms of where I stand,
I think I I have a leaning towards more artistic
(23:30):
side and feeling the game. I feel like that's the
way I play it. Um. I kind of see shots
and feel them, and I think that's the that's the
way I enjoy it more. But you know, I I
play with a good friend as a who's a low
handicap as well, and and he's the guy who says,
you know, can't hit an eight shot, can't do it.
(23:50):
You know, it's a two yards that's exactly this, and
if it's a little bit more, a little bit less,
he freaks out and doesn't know what to do. UM.
So I don't only think the game like that, but
I draw the enjoyment from the from the small things
in the in the field and the touch around hitting shots,
shaping shots, and and you know, enjoying your your company,
(24:14):
enjoying your your place in nature. That's kind of if
that falls on one side of the category, it's probably
towards that artistic side. Yeah, I know that came through
in the book quite a bit. I was intrigued by
that ship of Sirens moment there at Bannon. Dude. So
they play the whole with nobody's speaking. Just yeah, they
(24:34):
play one silent hole. It's from It's Golf in the
In Golf in the Kingdom, they played one whole silent,
So that's the they you know, they draw inspiration from
that book. So did you like that one whole silent
the whole um? Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You know, like
that group and there are other groups that are similar.
(24:57):
They embrace the game in a very jovial kind of
fun way. So you know, if you're quiet for one hole,
it kind of maybe it brings something out in you
and it brings you a little bit closer to the
game in some way. And if it doesn't, it's one hole.
So um, you know, I was kind of hoping that
(25:19):
that we would turn into a full Golf in the
Kingdom Night Golf by named Lucifer's Boy. But but it
never came. It never came to that because they're normal people,
you know, so um, but they're they're a special group.
And I think you learned a lot from meeting or
I should say I learned a lot from meeting all
these different types of people. It gave me some pretty
(25:41):
good perspective on the game and how why the it
is the view of how people enjoy it and how
people play it. So that was one of the joys
of reporting it. Yeah, We're gonna take another quick break
and then UH talk a little bit more with Brett
about his book that is coming out on May five,
golfs Holy War. We'll be right back after a ward
(26:03):
from our sponsors. So I understand Brett, when you uh
undertook this project that you went down several paths and
(26:25):
routes that did not end up in the book. I
have good sources on that. What are were there any
particular that that were event of note or any particular reason,
or you just just didn't feel they were good stories
to tell, or you just wanted to keep the book
at a reasonable length, or some combination of all those. Yeah,
(26:45):
you know, it's a complicated process. Um writing a book
in general. Uh, and when it's this wide a birth
of ideas, Um, it was kind of there were false
starts here and there. Um. You know, the first draft
of the book had a fifty five thousand word chapter
(27:10):
on ben Hogan. Chapter chapter. Yeah. The current book now,
I think is about eighty five thousand words and there
is a chapter on ben Hogan, but it is very
different what existed before. UM. You know, it's it takes.
It took me a while to wrap my hands around everything.
(27:30):
It's it's a lot. There's a lot going on, and
it takes so it took me a while to figure
out how to boil it down to its most elemental features.
You know. So it wasn't until the third full draft
when I sat down to write that, UM, I kind
of realized that the art and the you know, art
(27:53):
versus science argument boiled down to the golfing machine and
science and golf in the Kingdom and are and going
from there, I kind of projected out into all of
these different other avenues of reporting that I did, you know,
going into Tiger Woods and t p I and everything
else that I went into. Um, it has its basis
(28:16):
kind of in those two books, and I felt like
the main character throughout all of it is Ben Hogan
because he is still this deity. He is still the
guy that is worshiped, even though he wasn't the most
talented and he wasn't the most successful. So why, you know,
why is why did Golf in the Kingdom? Uh sell
(28:38):
millions of copies and translated into thirteen languages? And Clint
Eastwood bought the movie rights? But it's so weird? And
then this, then this, this Golfing Machine book, which is
everyone's supposed to be in in modern life. Everyone's longing
for science and concrete things. But nobody knows that book
and nobody really wants to get into it, you know,
(29:00):
So why does this exists? Um? It's kind of you know,
it took it takes a while too. It took me
a while to wrap my head around it all. I
guess it's the point. Yeah, was there was there anybody
in particular, or any any path you would like to
have taken, but you just couldn't get access or somebody
to want to cooperate. Uh? Well, you know who doesn't
(29:24):
want to sit down with Tiger Woods for a couple
of hours? His brain, right, But we all know that
doesn't happen, um, you know, in terms of act like
not really. Uh. You know, I was actually really fortunate
because when I started reporting, I went out to San
Francisco and got to visit Ben Doyle, who was the
first authorized instructor of the Golfing Machine year and taught
(29:45):
Bobby Clampitt. And then Ben Doyle passed on a couple
of years later, so I felt really lucky I was
able to spend that time with them. And Michael Murphy
was a great guy. You know, he doesn't although he's
kind of talked to a couple of people recently, but
when I talked to him, yeah, when I I when
I talked to him, it was two thousand twelve, two
thirteen something like that, so I didn't know anybody. I've
(30:09):
never seen him quoted, you know, since Golf in the
Kingdom was reviewed in The New Yorker in nineteen seventy two,
you know, I mean, it was very rare where you
ever saw him in the press. So that was a
really cool time to get to spend time with him.
And he's a guy who's just super intelligent, and he
just kind of overwhelms you with his presence a little bit.
(30:31):
So I don't know if there was anybody that really
I that I missed out on. I mean, as a reporter,
you always look back and feel like you could have
done more, but at some point you just gotta, you know,
pull the plug, right. So, UM, I don't really regret
missing anybody, um, but there are people I wish I
spend more time with. Sure now, Tiger is definitely the one,
(30:53):
and and he he has a great chapter with Lauren
Rubinstein in the book they did on the ninety seven
Masters on and gets into technology. But he to me,
he's fascinating because he has flirted with going too far
with some of these things, or has gone far too far,
but he's also kept an open mind about advancements in
(31:15):
the game. And yet the thing I've seen in the
last year and a half or so is that he
is two years really that he went there. He keeps
an eye on those things, he thinks about them, but
he's he's pulling back. He's kind of going back to
things with his I mean, one of the best answers
he gave it was at Bay Hill. I asked the
(31:37):
question just to just you know, he's doing this little
thing with his swing and rehearsing, and he went into
this whole thing about his childhood and artistry and and
I was like, whoa, where did that come from? In it?
So he he's fascinating, and I don't think it's been
documented enough because he just won't. He won't. He maybe
saving it for the book, but he won't really go
too far into because he doesn't ever want to shoot
(32:00):
down the notion of trying to get better and and
use the latest thing. He's still a believer in that.
But really one of the things that's made him most
successful in the last few years is that he has
just gone way back to essentially the fundamentals of childhood
and and some of the basics. Yeah. Well, his shift
(32:21):
jeff in personality, I think is one of the most
refreshing things that's happened in the game in a long time,
because he he has thought the game. He thinks the
game as well as anyone in history. And if we
can get a little if he would give us a
little bit more of what's going on in there, I
think it would be it would be very helpful. Um,
(32:44):
I will say there's one you know, him going back
to his childhood and thinking about how he swung the club.
I wouldn't I wouldn't put this past what I think
is really the cutting edge of technology and science in
the game right now, which is neuroscience, which is and
I touch on this in the book, and uh, you know,
(33:05):
it's learning. How we learn, you know, human beings learned.
The way your brain operates is we create memories a
lot quicker and a lot better by experience. You know,
it's by implicit experience were rather than explicit information, you know.
So to me when I kind of found that out,
(33:27):
it was, isn't this the history of education. Isn't all
education explicit information? You know? Here is what led to
World War Two? You know, and it happened on this
date and this time. But when we learn, when we
really keep that with us, it's when you get interested
in World War two and you pick up a book
on your own out of interest and read it. You know.
(33:50):
So getting back when Tiger, Tiger is such a talented guy.
When he was a kid, he played the game a
certain way because he all he was doing was really
reacting to what was happening. You know, if he hit
it right, he tried to hit it left, you know,
and that's really where neuroscience is now, is saying that's
how you get better, and that's what that's the future
(34:11):
of golf instruction. So maybe if Sean Foley, who is
good friends with this guy Mike Hebron, who is at
the front of neuroscience in the game, um, maybe that's
why he's pulling back from track man a little bit.
Or it's it's not that he's not using it, it's
just that the coach's job now is is explaining that
(34:34):
data in a way that is brain compatible, which is
a phrase that Mike Hebron uses, you know, so that
you understand it better and you create it for yourself.
You know. He likes to say you play to learn.
Human beings played to learn. So maybe what Tiger is
doing now is not only refreshing in his personality, but
(34:55):
it's refreshing in his outlook in the game because he's
playing to get better. He goes in the range and
he hits balls and he sees where they're going and
then reacts to that. And you don't want to get
too lost in that, because that's what would happen in
the you know and forever in the history game before video.
But maybe that's another refreshing aspect of it, where he's
(35:16):
playing and trusting his instincts a little bit more. So
that might be the new that might be the new
wave of of technology in the game. I think I
think he gets a lot of confidence from the fact
that he's become more self reliant again. And he looks
at a lot of the younger players and admires their talent,
(35:37):
admires their speed, they're worth a work ethic. But I
think deep down he also knows that way too many
of them are way too reliant on a group of
people around them, uh to the point of when it
comes time under the gun in a big situation, that
maybe that makes them a little less uh powerful, less interesting,
(36:01):
less strong mentally than than he is. Because he's right
on it. Yeah, he's kind of gone back to just
trusting himself a little bit more and he and that's
with age, obviously, but but you do see it. So
many of the young players now it's it's it's the
team and we have to rely on the team. And
that's great and it's made a lot of them better,
(36:21):
but you do wonder if there's a point where it
makes them weaker as competitors. I think you're right on it.
I think that's it. I think that's a really valid
point because you know, why why internalize Bob Rotella's message
when you can hire Bob Rotella, Like why understand why
(36:42):
even understand the TrackMan numbers when you can hire somebody
who understands TrackMan better than you ever are ever going to.
And that's how these guys insulate themselves. But then when
you go out and play golf, they're not there to
help you. You know, you need to know, and if
you hit one right, you're not and it feels like
you it shouldn't have gone right. What are you gonna do?
(37:05):
You know? And that's like being able to self adjust
has always been one of the biggest parts of of
being a good pro golfer. You need to be out
there and go you know. Jack Nicholas used to say
it all the time too, is he'd go to the
range and he'd find out if he was cutting it
or hooking it that day, which might be a little
bit of Jack Nicholas overstating it because he probably cut
it every day, but um, but that's part of it.
(37:28):
You have to know yourself. You have to you have
to be able to adjust on the fly, and if
you can't, you're you're not going to be able to
will it in the hole. And and you know, that's
that's probably the most explicit way to explain Tiger's advantage.
He knows himself better than anybody and always has, you know,
(37:49):
And so those guys are going to have to figure
it out. And some of them, some of them do.
I think some of them are. Some of them get it.
I mean you look at Justin. I think Justin Thomas
gets it. You know, he knows he he might pull
out track Man every you know, every Monday and Tuesday
on the range, but when he's out there, he knows
what he's doing. He swung it the same way since
he was a kid. So there are guys out there
(38:10):
that have that in them, and they're gonna have to
find it. Especially you know, it's gonna be pretty soon
when Tiger is gone, and golf's gonna look very different,
you know, for a lot of different reasons, and and
just being competitive and being one of those top players,
those guys are going to have to figure out how
to get there on their own. Yeah, Thomas is interesting
because he has the full team. His dad goes to
(38:32):
every tournament. His dad's as an instructor. Still um, but
just to give you a perfect example this year Riviera,
we we always ask about the tenth hole there and
he lays up there, which is just so uh off brand,
as I say, for him, because he's a very aggressive
player and his dad wants him to drive the green
and and just feels like and I asked him and
(38:52):
he didn't, he wasn't overly thrilled to talk to me
about it. I don't know it. It's uh a lot
of these things. They think you're trying to get out
a state secret or or maybe Justin did not have
a great day that day and he was anticipating a
long range session. I don't know. But I asked him,
why do you want him to drive the green? And
he went through his reasoning and it was good. But
(39:13):
it was fascinating to know that they just discussed this.
And but Justin's his own guy, and he knows what
his limitations are, what his strengths are, and what fits
his eye and all those things. So and I think
it's why he is uh just that notch better than
some of his other peers who have all the same
tools and um and no ability. So it's it's a
(39:35):
it's an interesting component of pro golf. Now, yeah, you know,
there are certain things you can't you can't explain, right,
I mean I have. I used this example every now
and again where I was. I started playing competitively again
a couple of years ago, and so I was playing
in the met mid Amateur at bay Own, great great
(39:56):
golf course and Jersey, and I had a caddy and
a act this round. He was a great guy, really
helped me around the golf course. And then I got
a different caddy for the first round of the tournament,
and he was a guy who thought he knew everything right.
So in the first hole, I hit two iron off
the tea. I've got like one thirty in He goes, okay,
play a hundred and forty two yards shot, and I
(40:17):
was like, I don't. I was like, I don't know
what that means, like what high low cut draw? Like
what when landed where that? I don't that that doesn't
register to me, you know, Like I can hit a
six iron a hundred forty two yards, I can hit
a pitching wedge like I don't, you know, And so
it took me a couple of holes before I had
before I was able to say, you know what, just
(40:39):
give me the number on the ground and I'll figure
it out. And that point I was five over and
like it was toast. But yeah, it's just a way.
So I'm sure justin Thomas, there's there might be something
about that hole that he just doesn't work, you know.
And if you're standing over like he could probably hit
three went up near the front of that green. If
(41:00):
you're standing over that three with and you have and
you think you have no chance to hit the shot,
you're gonna why even do it? Like it doesn't everybody
has different shots that that fit their eye and don't
fit their eye, you know. And like how many times
it Tiger miss missed the seventeenth fairway in Augustin when
I treat was there. It's just shots that just don't
(41:21):
fit your So I think that's a big part of it. Well,
and that's what I like what your book does. Unfortunately,
we have a lot of people, as you know, with
just as you've seen with baseball and other sports. I
don't know about hockey, but where they feel all the
answers are in the data and and every question can
be answered. And when somebody strokes gained off the tea
(41:45):
is is down. It must be because of this, this
and that. When there are just so many things that
can't really be explained sometimes about golf. And and it's
fascinating to watch how many people in the media side
of things expect that you can just find answers and
numbers or track man numbers and and I think you
(42:06):
do a nice job in the book of of highlighting
how yes, some we we are able to answer more
questions now, but uh, there are still so many things
you just can't address with with the data. UM. I
want to ask you, because you you primarily cover hockey.
M hm, why do hockey players love golf so much?
(42:28):
Is it? Is it because the the the motion is similar,
and there's a couple there's probably there's you know what,
there's probably a long psychological analysis of this available somewhere.
The probably the motion the season's work out in turn. UM,
I also do think they're hockey and I've covered a
(42:48):
lot of sports. I think hockey players are the most thoughtful,
um because the game kind of lends itself to that too,
So I think they're drawn to there's a lot of
improvisation in hockey, right, there's you know, coaches put in
systems and stuff. But if the game is so fast,
(43:09):
you end up having to make decisions on the move
and you have to kind of understand some theory in
your own right and what works for you and what doesn't. Um.
So I think guys that mindset kind of lends itself
to golf a little bit. Um there's probably something socio
(43:30):
economic about it as well, but that's that's a whole another,
that's a whole another path to go down. Well there,
I should I should phrase it a little bit differently.
I think they're more really good golfing hockey players. And
every sport has people who love golf, basketball, football, baseball.
(43:51):
You can go through every one of them and find
guys who are nuts about the sport of golf. Yeah,
but I I mean, I have no dat on this.
It just seem to me like there are more hockey
players who are two's and three handicap and scratch and
who are just really really good at golf. Yeah, there are,
and I know a lot of them, and they wouldn't
(44:12):
want me to tell you how good they are because
they don't want anyone to know that they play. Do
they play during the season much? Uh, they do. They
don't play a ton. They don't play a ton. But
you know, if they it depends on what's happening to
I mean, like I was, I was covering the Rangers, um,
(44:33):
and I was traveling right when, right when the season
was paused. Right, So they had a game in Denver
the night the NBA was paused. So they're out there
playing this game and I'm in an arena with twenty
people going, what are we doing here? And then the
next morning we flew to Phoenix where they were gonna
have two days off, and a couple of guys I
(44:54):
was talking to, we're gonna have their clubs down there,
but they were kind of on the bubble of a
playoff plus so maybe not, you know, even though they
were going to have a full day off and then
a day of practice and then the game, so it's
gonna be ample opportunity to play, but um, you know
they did. You know, It's that kind of maybe earlier
in the year stuff like that, they play, they're just yeah,
(45:18):
they're just drawing to the game. It's got there's something
about the mentality that is just in common. I guess well,
I find that interesting too because Steve Kerr has has
actually advocated golf during the season, and baseball has always
been open to pitchers playing golf during the season, not
so much the the everyday guys. But it's funny that
they're still considerate of the possibility that somebody would see
(45:42):
it and not the impression with the optics of it
would be would be well, you know too, they go,
they take a beating, Like these guys play. I understand
like Lebron needs his load management and and basketball is
a very tough game to play, but it's not even
close to hockey. It's not even what these guys go
through every day. I mean, so to be like a
(46:04):
lot of times too, it's like you get into the
middle of the season, you get on the road, it's
like they want to sleep. They want to sleep, they
want to ice, and that's it because that's the only
way they're gonna be able to play it all that night. UM.
Last thing, as as again, thinking of of your book,
thinking of what's going on in the world, what what
are some of the um results of this time UM
(46:31):
going to be in terms of just sports in general.
The business of sports? Is there anything in particular that
you've been thinking about as this has played out and
we've suspended sports and now we talk about when they'll
come back and but uh, and it may just be
kind of tying back to our original conversation at the
beginning of this show, But do you do you sense
(46:53):
anything in particular is going to come out of this
in terms of the world of sports? And it could
be anything business, uh, technique, mentality, anything in particular jump out.
I hope, you know, emotionally, I hope that we're all,
like I said before, were all a little bit more
kind and kind of can take a deep breath and
(47:14):
and slow down a little bit. Um. I think I
do think that economically there's gonna be a huge impact.
There already is, But I think the the repercussions from
this are going to be extreme because all of these
businesses are now getting put in the pressure cooker, so
all of the fat is going to have to come off.
(47:35):
You know, they're you're you're seeing when you have to
make a decision of what's essential and what's not out there,
and every business and every sports league you're gonna see
what works and what doesn't because you have to, uh.
And I think the PGA Tour in general kind of
they have a lot of things they have to think
about right now because I don't know if the model
(47:58):
is sustainable, especially when Tiger leaves, you know, so it's
gonna be interesting. I think this, you know, I know
a lot has been made and you've written a lot.
He's done a great job covering the the new Professional
Golf League, UM, and what's gonna come of that. I
think I think it's gonna do a little bit more
(48:19):
than just push the PGA Tour. It's gonna kind of
it's gonna kind of weak people up to the fact
that maybe things do need to change for the better
of the game. And I don't know if that's the
answer or not, because who knows, UM, But the PGA
Tour has kind of just been strolling along watching Tiger
Woods bringing, you know, raise purses exponentially and and that
(48:42):
cash cow is gonna leave at some point. And I
think this is kind of when things shrink, when the
economy shrinks, I think you kind of have to look
around and see what works and what doesn't. UM. And
I really hope that things get better because of it,
not just ENGLF, but in other sports too. I mean, like,
what's gonna be that what's the best way to operate,
(49:03):
you know what, what's the what's the best way to
do with salary cats and luxury taxes and players and
and uh, you know, maybe maybe fans stop getting gouged
to walk into the stadium. Maybe there's maybe there's more
affordable seats and less you know, you're going to Yankee
Stadium now it's like walking, it's ridiculous. You know. At
least Dodger Stadium still has there's still some sense of
(49:26):
baseball being played, you know. I mean, oh, it's been
a while since I've been there, but yeah, you know,
something like that. Like I do, I do think that
when things tighten up, they get more efficient, you know,
And I'm hoping that's a practical result of this. And
I do think the p g A Tour specifically has
(49:49):
some things I have to think about. No, I think
you're right it. But it is interesting when you look
at the tour situation. Every sport was having these discuss
before this hit, shortening seasons and and rethinking things. I
mean really, every single sport was already pondering that maybe
(50:10):
we need to be doing something. I I think that
was just a collective bloat. Uh, it's just a little
too much of everything. Cash grab. It's been a cash
graph for years. You know. There's a really interesting uh
mathematicians scientist Eric Weinstein. I don't know if you know,
I mean, guys, he's a great podcast actually called The
Portal um and he's talked a lot about, Uh, the
(50:34):
economy has expanded so much and everyone is basing their
businesses on that constant expansion and that's probably not sustainable,
you know. So so the NFL going expanding teams and
expanding the season and and major League Baseball one and
you know, they want to suck every cent outre and
(50:55):
eventually it's going to dry up that men, Eventually you're
gonna start level lean out of expansion. It's it's just
it's just natural or you know, I don't know, I'm
not an economist, but that's that seems natural to me. Um.
So I feel like they're gonna have the sports leagues
are gonna have a lot of difficult questions coming up.
Also because viewerships down, who and people young people don't
(51:18):
care that much. It's not the same. Uh, you know,
it's not the same business model as it was of
selling television rights and and sitting there and now CBS
has exclusive rights that you know, it doesn't work like
that anymore. And you'll see it when when Facebook and
and Google and other places come in and start bidding
for rights, and it's it's gonna change the game. Things
(51:40):
are gonna change drastically in the next ten years or so.
And I think this is going to be kind of
an impetus a push for sports leagues in terms of
figuring out what's gonna work in the future. Well, I
know you didn't time it this way, but I really
feel like your book will be a great read for
people of all different ages, although as you you were
saying that, I thought, you know a younger. What I
(52:01):
love about your book is that somebody under gosh, under
thirty five probably now we'll read this and things that
I'm reading about golf and the Kingdom and the and
the golf machine that that I know about, uh, they
have no concept of because it's just those are things
that haven't been highlighted. And I I think they'd leave
your book understanding that there is that there is a
(52:24):
place to find between science and art um which I
think we've we've personally, I think golf has gone a
little too far towards the science side, and I think
a lot of sports have. And it'll be interesting to
see if this this time away, where people have had
a chance to ponder things will will kind of movie equilibrium, uh,
in a different direction away from just all all all science,
(52:48):
all that all the time. So um, well, congratulations, it's
many years in the making, while eight years almost right,
So that's uh, that's incredible. Well, congratulations. I will put
all sorts of good information on my website as to
where people can get the book. And uh, Brett, thank
you so much, and and please be safe there on
(53:09):
Long Island. Yeah, thank you, Jeff, I appreciate the time
you too. Be safe. Thank you again to Bretta Gallis
for joining us to talk about golf's holy war, the
battle for the soul of a game in an age
of science. I will, as always, put together some show
notes highlighting what Brett does in this book where you
(53:30):
can find him. You know, he's doing some zoom chats
in lieu of book signings. So if you have a
group of golf buddies at a club or something, and
you're looking for a guest speaker. He, as you heard
in that show, is a very eloquent, smart, interesting guy
to talk all sports with, but in particular golf and
hockey his two favorites. I will also note a few
(53:54):
things related to our discussion and put those in the
show notes, because I think it's fun to you at
this time that we have to review and ponder uh
the role of technology science in the game. It's an
ideal time and he certainly sets the table beautifully with
this book. So uh it's an excellent read and you'll
(54:16):
you'll definitely enjoy it. As always, The Shack Show is
a production of I R Radio, and that production is
handled by Tim Perrotica. Thank you so much to Tim
for making the show listenable and fun and cleaning up
my various little uh ticks and mistakes. You're a good
man for doing it. Remember The Shack Show as a
production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart,
(54:36):
just visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I will be
back soon with more here on The Shack Show.
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Welcome to the Shack Show. You know, this is a
strange time to launch a book, but I couldn't think
(00:20):
of a book more perfect for the times and where
we've been and in this moment where we have a
chance to kind of reflect on where things have gone
and where they're going. And Bret Sir Gallis did not
know that that would be the case when he started
this in two thousand and twelve, but he has now
(00:40):
finished and on May five, will be releasing with his
partners at Avit Reader Press, a division of Simon Schuster,
a book called Golf's Holy War, The Battle for the
Soul of a Game in an Age of Science, and
it's does exactly what the title says. It's got an
incredible group of endorsements. Me Diaz of course, longtime writer
(01:02):
for Golf digestant Golf Channel analyst now Tom Dope role,
famous golf course architect, Michael Bamberger who was a subject
of episode one here The Shack Show, and Randall Shamblee.
And what Brett does in this book is is really
sensational in taking a reporter's approach. He's a new York
Post writer who covers the Rangers. He is also though
(01:23):
covered golf, tennis, baseball, loves all sports, lives on Long
Island as a high school golfer, as he'll describe in
the show, got a little bit away from golf, back
into it competitively, and he traveled all over the place
to talk to some of the various people on the
vast spectrum of of approaches to golf, and he considers
(01:45):
the history of the sport and all sorts of interesting things. Anyhow,
in this time where we are pondering the role of
of data technology science in golf, I just couldn't think
of a better book to read and consider. He has
temperament is way more even keel than mine is. And
he doesn't take a position. He just wants to present
(02:06):
you with a lot of different ideas and and uh so,
I really hope you enjoy this chat with bretzor Gallis
as much as I did. You. You've taken on an
ambitious topic. You have set out to to do some
interesting things. How did a primarily a hockey writer decide
(02:27):
to tackle this subject of golf and the age of
science and and the question of whether it's um impacting
the game in a in a good or bad way.
That's a very fair question, Jeff. So I guess this
this story, the origin story, uh, and I'm trying not
to make this too bell, is that I played, uh
(02:51):
competitively in high school. Um. I didn't play in college
after I went to Villanova. After school, I ended up
getting a paper job at the New York Post in
the sports department. I was an agate clerk, started as
an age clerk, which nobody knows what is anymore because
the aget pages of the stats and standings. And I
(03:12):
was doing that, yeah, yeah, waiting you know what I
was doing. I was waiting on your Dodgers and Giants
finished late night games. I hated it. I hated it. Uh. No,
I shouldn't say, hey, I love the job. The job was,
you know, being a kid out of college, I was,
you know, a pig and what have you? So? Um,
(03:33):
you know, so from there, you know, I started. I
I covered a little bit of everything. Um. And I
was at an outing golf out and I didn't really
play that much, but I was at a golf outing. Uh.
And it was the opening of Pound Ridge that Pete
up there. So I think it was two thousand eight. Uh,
and every one of us has been one of these
(03:55):
outings where the carts are lined up and you know,
you're on the putting green or eating a box lunch
to sliced apples or renab yet um, and there's a
presentation going on in the range. And I really wasn't,
you know, paying attention, But I happened to look down
at this point and there was a guy down there
who was his name was Skip Latella, and he was
giving a lesson to a woman who was standing on
(04:18):
these hard rubber balloons. And he called them flex ord disks.
And it didn't seem that out of line. I've seen
things similar. And he kind of took her back in
the position and it was like okay, and he said, actually,
what I'm doing now is these these disks are creating
static electricity, which is helping open up her neurotransmitters in
(04:39):
her brain, which is making the communication between her brain
and muscles clearer. So I'm actually teaching her how to
relearn a complex modern pattern subconsciously. Right, So nobody's paying attention.
I don't know why I was, but I said, what
the hell is this guy talking about? You know, so
(04:59):
I walked over to him and said, what the hell
are you talking about? UM? And I started finding out
about you know, how he uses these things. I said,
you know who who uses these? He sends me to
David Glenn's out New Jersey, former National Teacher of the Year.
David Glenn's got a guy at his range. UM, guy
by the name of Henry Ellison, who was like the
(05:20):
exact opposite. He had been close to science and then
had this big divorce with science, became this kind of spiritual,
esoteric teacher who I saw make connections with his students
like I've never seen before. UM. So I was like, hey,
here's the conflict, Like what has happened to golf? Well,
I have been you know, like my nose down in
(05:42):
inc you know, and not really paying super attention to
the nitty gritty of the game more than like just
what was happening in the pro game. Uh. And I
was like, Okay, maybe it's a magazine article. And then
I kind of started like expanding out from that and
realized it was kind of a book and and there
was an avenue to explore, um, this conflict between kind
(06:06):
of science and art, this old you know, the new
age and the traditional uh, and where it took me
as just there's so many interesting little rabbit holes of
how this really what the question of modernity is, like,
how do we either embrace technology or resist technology? And
how that question has projected itself on the game during
(06:29):
this time. So it's been a it was a really
interesting and fun thing to do as a reporter, go
make up every phone call and and find chase every
lead you can think of, trying to find the most
interesting story you can. So that's kind of how it
came about. Yeah, that's great. And so when was that
that out? In? Was two thousand and eight? Uh, and
(06:51):
I got I got the book contract in two thousand
twelves and and and and and the and and just
since the book contract was signed, the the number of
things that have changed probably added to your uh stress
doing this book. I mean, it's just it was. Yeah,
it was a constant, a constant battle of a lot
(07:12):
of oh crap moments. You know, just what is that
I'm still having them the books coming out and you know,
the books out on the fifth and I'm still having
these moments? What is that? I haven't heard of that?
And so I tried to make it kind of as
timeless as possible, where here's a snapshot of what was
happening at this time. Uh, and it seems like a
(07:36):
pretty significant time in the history of technology in the game.
So I tried not to get too much into you know, equipment,
the specific equipment news and stuff like that, because that
gets antiquated very fast, as we all know it does. Yeah. Uh,
so you have covered a lot of different sports, and
(07:58):
obviously you love golf, but how would you compare golf's
uh changes and and this sort of underlying struggle that
you You do a great job in the book of
trying to cover again all these different elements without getting
too far into the weeds, which is what I really
like about it. It's unlike me, who just I just
(08:18):
went right after things with with opinion and things that
I thought stunk you. You are providing a read for
a larger audience, and and one probably a little more
open minded than mine. But but compared to because every
sport is facing these these issues with analytics and different things,
(08:38):
is golf the most extreme version? You think, well, you know, golf.
Golf is a game that really lends itself to people
who are thoughtful like that's kind of the way the
game is played. You kind of have to ask yourself
these questions, these relatively deep questions that other athletes don't write.
(09:01):
You know that. You know, you're a football player, you're
running back right, you're following the play, you're following the coach,
and you're trying to be as prepared as possible. But
golfers have all this time to think, you know, not
only walking up to the shot, but over the shot
and and there. It's such a complicated motion and there's
so many things that can go wrong that are outside
of your control too. So, uh, when it comes to analytics,
(09:25):
I mean and and that you know that includes the
science of track man and three D analysis and force
plates and all of that stuff as well. Um, I
think I think most great players have realized that there
needs to be a balance between that and the feel
(09:45):
and the artistry of it. And you know, the how
that pie gets sliced up as different for each person.
But I think the you know, the analytics have changed
it in in the fact that now things that we're
pas down anecdotally are known to be either true or
false because they're being proven by this science. Um, you know,
(10:09):
I always go back to I think one of the
lasting quotes that's going to stick with Tiger Woods when
we're gonna say this for years in decades, is you know,
he said he's playing his best when field meets real.
So it's when he what he's feeling is equaling itself
out in the track man numbers and everything else. So
(10:32):
I think that's a really good example of kind of
how you can find this balance. So analytics has changed
things a lot because because instructors and coaches need to
know all of this stuff, so does everybody. I mean,
you don't like you you probably know this from golf
course architecture too. Is that that's starting to come into
how people are thinking about designing golf courses now in
(10:54):
terms of the data of where shots are and what
shots are being valued if they're close to hazards are not. Yeah,
you know, And so it's kind of it has permeated
the game. I don't think it's changed the game as
much as baseball or something like that, but it's definitely different.
It's interesting, though, you you just mentioned three different things
in that that answer. Tiger Woods you mentioned well, of course,
(11:17):
and now I think about Sean fully Um, who's in
the book as an instructor, who has now he's pulling
back on on use of track Man, and he was
really one of the first out there to use it.
Tiger Is is wavering and from what I've seen, but
he's also you described how that there's always been a
(11:39):
recognition by people and players of that balance. And I
and you also deal with this in the book, But
I feel like we're the one sport where the financial
interests have tend to cloud most people's views on this subject.
Whatever whatever component of the game we're talking about in
(12:02):
this this sort of battle between skill and natural skill
and and kind of playing the game the way it
was meant to be played, etcetera, etcetera, versus the technological battle. Um,
did you know going in to doing this book how
much the the economic or business side drives the way
(12:25):
people think about this topic. I can't say I knew
that the depth of that, Um, but it makes a
lot of sense when you start getting into it, you
know what I mean. I have a chapter called Technology
for Profit, which to me started as I went to
t P I, because that's supposed to be the cutting
(12:46):
edge of science, right the titles performance in and UM.
Very soon you find out that the reason it exists
not only that physical place, but all of the certification
and everything that comes out of t p I is
because while you line was a brilliant businessman, titlist had
the the market share, the biggest market share of golf balls.
(13:11):
So they wanted people to enjoy the game, play it
for longer periods of time, and continue to play it.
And because the longer they played it, the more titleist
golf balls they ever buying. You know. So TPR became
this cutting edge, scientific place, and they became this brand
because it was driving their business, not it wasn't altruistic um.
(13:35):
And they did a lot of great things and they
still do a lot of great things that you know,
I guess that's kind of the way innovation comes about
in a lot of industries really, I mean profits driving innovation, UM.
And you see it in a lot of different realms
of golf too. I mean, just the way the way
Taylor made fits clubs, the way the PGA Tours using
(13:56):
strokes gained, you know, to try to get people more
engaged in players, to try to get a younger audience
that is a little bit more analytical. UM. So yeah,
I mean like that's it's definitely part of it. And
I really think that profit drives a lot of innovation
and always has. Yeah. I just feel though that we
(14:17):
we tend to give into it a little too much
and worry about it, and it's it's led to some
some issues in the sport. Um. And that's just what
my book was was was about mostly U And you know,
I think oddly that the data doesn't really back up
that economically the game is is in a better place
(14:38):
because of a lot of these things. UM. But you
also spend a lot of time though on on how
much of this helps people self improve their game, their
outlook on the game. UM. After talking to all these
different people, do you do you feel like this embrace
(15:00):
certain elements of of of science has made people enjoy
the game or some people? Yeah? I do, I do
think some people, UM, because I think part of I
think part of the question and part of the reason
this is becoming this has become such a conflict now
(15:22):
is because people are with all of this information and
data now at our fingertips. Well beyond golf, people are
reaching for things that are more concrete, you know, the
way the way people invest, the way people think about
the world is they want data and they want to
analyze that data, and they want it to be they
want everything to be more concrete. So I think that
(15:45):
does give people solace in some regard um, you know,
And it really comes back to kind of how do
you how do you view the world? Is it a
inherently solvable place or is it inherently mysterious? And you
don't you maybe you'll never really come up with an answer,
So how and how do you go? So how do
you go about getting better at the game? Do you
(16:07):
want to do you want to embrace ambiguity and enjoy
it or do you want to reach for something concrete?
So I do think that you know, I we all
know guys that we've played with and women that we've
played with that draw for the concrete. They want to tip.
You know. That's why that's why the magazines have existed
for so long. Everyone's looking for that one tip. That's
(16:28):
why Ben Hogan and The Secret was so such an
obsessive thing for people, because a lot of people this
this modern mindset that you can grab ahold of something
and if you just get that one thing then you'll
have the answer. And maybe it's not that simple, but
that you know that doesn't mean that a lot of
people don't feel better by doing that. Um, we're gonna
(16:51):
take a quick breakcare on the Shack Show, and then
after that we're going to discuss how all of this
could possibly be changing drastically for this pandemic. We'll be
right back with the Bret Sagalas, author of Glully War,
and we will be discussing all sorts of fun stuff
after this break from one of our sponsors. All right, Bret,
(17:22):
so uh we now you are. I'm launching a podcast
in the middle of a global pandemic. You are releasing
a book. You live on Long Island. Um, so I'm
sure you feel like I did starting this. It's it's
such a strange time to be doing these things. And
yet um, once you set aside and think about the
(17:43):
suffering and the people who've who have gone through so much,
you also at some point have to look ahead and
think about life after this moment. And why I think
your book is the timing is it is actually perfect.
You may not think, um, but you are. You're You've
documented this, this moment and this evolution of the sport,
(18:06):
and now here we are and people have been deprived
of the game a little bit, either watching it or
playing it, and they are soon to be allowed to
go back and play it, probably sooner as an activity
than other things because of the way golf is played.
How do you think this will impact the white people thinking,
(18:28):
and in particular as it as it relates to this
quest to get better and the science and and the
the emphasis on on so much science in the game.
Do you think that's going to change now? Well, you know,
in general, I really hope that um, this moment, as
terrible as it is, and and being in New York,
(18:49):
I mean, we really feel it, and it's it's really
an awful time. But if there's a positive to be
taken out of it, I hope it's that we can
all slow down and a little bit and we can
all be a little bit kinder to each other and
see the common humanity we have. And and the way
that translates to golf too is I hope, you know,
(19:11):
I hope we appreciate it a little more. I hope
we kind of appreciate everything a little bit. But but
being able to go out on a golf course and
and practically I mean like carrying your bag, talking to
the person next to you, you know, making it a
little bit simpler time, making it not making it not
a rush, making it not a trophy game of of
(19:33):
how fancy can your place be? You know. I think
I think there might be a little more appreciation for
the simple things in life. I hope so. And I
think that translates to golf in a good way because
people are going to want to get outdoors and it
is a social activity where it's you know, practically, it's
not like a concert. You're not jam next to somebody,
(19:55):
you know, and you can do it without really being
h incredibly risky in terms of spreading the virus. So
I think it could help us kind of heal and
come out of this period, at least for those of
us that really like it. Um And with science, I mean,
that's always going to be there. I mean, there's always
(20:15):
gonna be people longing to snow their attack angle and
launch angle and spin rates, you know, and if that
helps you enjoy the game, then then great. But maybe
we become a little less obsessive with perfection, because really,
when you look at golf, what is it accept a
game besides how bad is your bad You know, you
(20:36):
never hit a perfect shot, you never make a perfect swing.
It's just how bad is your bad. It's all bad shots.
It's just a level of how bad they are. So
maybe we can have a little more appreciation for the
imperfect and kind of embracing that side of it. That
is my sense that already people have had that awakening
(20:56):
or or awareness just not having the option to go
play when they normally would play and do what they
want to do. I don't know how long that'll last. Um,
but then you know that you look at what the
tour pros are saying, and and and not much. They've
been pretty quiet the last few weeks, which is good.
But but but a few have spoken up and and uh,
(21:18):
if you have said some things they probably will regret someday.
Just just sounding a little bit out of touch with
with the world. But it's just kind of going back
to the fact that you've you've covered a lot of sports. Um,
golf is to me, this you call it in the
(21:38):
Star of the subtitle is a battle for the soul
of the game. And I feel like the soul of
the game has been lost a little bit with some
of these things and the inability to to grasp um
the kind of the core values, the whatever you want
to call it, the balance and now you never really
quite in the book give your v you after taking
(22:01):
in all these uh different perspectives things from like I said,
Sean Foley, the golf machine, you you do, golf architecture,
you look at the a t P. I Uh was
I assume that was just? Was that always the plan
to not to be to come at this as a
reporter and and and somebody who's sharing just what you're
(22:23):
observing in these different sectors of the sport. Yeah, yeah,
it was the plan. Um. I'm kind of of that
old school realm where the reporter is not the story.
Right if you can, if you can tell the story
good enough, you don't need to be in it. Um.
So you know, the only first the only time the
first person in the book is in the prologue where
I explained that I tell that story about meeting Skip
(22:45):
Lateell and how the book started, and then in the
epilogue to where I kind of tell this story about
this whimsical trip I made to band and Dunes, the
Shivist Iron Society. Um, only because I think that kind
of wraps up. That's probably as close as I get
to making an opinion, because I just wanted to present
it to both sides and say, there is this conflict, right,
(23:09):
and here's how if you are on the science side,
here's the best way to understand what's happening on the
other side, and vice versa. So I just wanted to
present the information. Um. In terms of where I stand,
I think I I have a leaning towards more artistic
(23:30):
side and feeling the game. I feel like that's the
way I play it. Um. I kind of see shots
and feel them, and I think that's the that's the
way I enjoy it more. But you know, I I
play with a good friend as a who's a low
handicap as well, and and he's the guy who says,
you know, can't hit an eight shot, can't do it.
(23:50):
You know, it's a two yards that's exactly this, and
if it's a little bit more, a little bit less,
he freaks out and doesn't know what to do. UM.
So I don't only think the game like that, but
I draw the enjoyment from the from the small things
in the in the field and the touch around hitting shots,
shaping shots, and and you know, enjoying your your company,
(24:14):
enjoying your your place in nature. That's kind of if
that falls on one side of the category, it's probably
towards that artistic side. Yeah, I know that came through
in the book quite a bit. I was intrigued by
that ship of Sirens moment there at Bannon. Dude. So
they play the whole with nobody's speaking. Just yeah, they
(24:34):
play one silent hole. It's from It's Golf in the
In Golf in the Kingdom, they played one whole silent,
So that's the they you know, they draw inspiration from
that book. So did you like that one whole silent
the whole um? Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You know, like
that group and there are other groups that are similar.
(24:57):
They embrace the game in a very jovial kind of
fun way. So you know, if you're quiet for one hole,
it kind of maybe it brings something out in you
and it brings you a little bit closer to the
game in some way. And if it doesn't, it's one hole.
So um, you know, I was kind of hoping that
(25:19):
that we would turn into a full Golf in the
Kingdom Night Golf by named Lucifer's Boy. But but it
never came. It never came to that because they're normal people,
you know, so um, but they're they're a special group.
And I think you learned a lot from meeting or
I should say I learned a lot from meeting all
these different types of people. It gave me some pretty
(25:41):
good perspective on the game and how why the it
is the view of how people enjoy it and how
people play it. So that was one of the joys
of reporting it. Yeah, We're gonna take another quick break
and then UH talk a little bit more with Brett
about his book that is coming out on May five,
golfs Holy War. We'll be right back after a ward
(26:03):
from our sponsors. So I understand Brett, when you uh
undertook this project that you went down several paths and
(26:25):
routes that did not end up in the book. I
have good sources on that. What are were there any
particular that that were event of note or any particular reason,
or you just just didn't feel they were good stories
to tell, or you just wanted to keep the book
at a reasonable length, or some combination of all those. Yeah,
(26:45):
you know, it's a complicated process. Um writing a book
in general. Uh, and when it's this wide a birth
of ideas, Um, it was kind of there were false
starts here and there. Um. You know, the first draft
of the book had a fifty five thousand word chapter
(27:10):
on ben Hogan. Chapter chapter. Yeah. The current book now,
I think is about eighty five thousand words and there
is a chapter on ben Hogan, but it is very
different what existed before. UM. You know, it's it takes.
It took me a while to wrap my hands around everything.
(27:30):
It's it's a lot. There's a lot going on, and
it takes so it took me a while to figure
out how to boil it down to its most elemental features.
You know. So it wasn't until the third full draft
when I sat down to write that, UM, I kind
of realized that the art and the you know, art
(27:53):
versus science argument boiled down to the golfing machine and
science and golf in the Kingdom and are and going
from there, I kind of projected out into all of
these different other avenues of reporting that I did, you know,
going into Tiger Woods and t p I and everything
else that I went into. Um, it has its basis
(28:16):
kind of in those two books, and I felt like
the main character throughout all of it is Ben Hogan
because he is still this deity. He is still the
guy that is worshiped, even though he wasn't the most
talented and he wasn't the most successful. So why, you know,
why is why did Golf in the Kingdom? Uh sell
(28:38):
millions of copies and translated into thirteen languages? And Clint
Eastwood bought the movie rights? But it's so weird? And
then this, then this, this Golfing Machine book, which is
everyone's supposed to be in in modern life. Everyone's longing
for science and concrete things. But nobody knows that book
and nobody really wants to get into it, you know,
(29:00):
So why does this exists? Um? It's kind of you know,
it took it takes a while too. It took me
a while to wrap my head around it all. I
guess it's the point. Yeah, was there was there anybody
in particular, or any any path you would like to
have taken, but you just couldn't get access or somebody
to want to cooperate. Uh? Well, you know who doesn't
(29:24):
want to sit down with Tiger Woods for a couple
of hours? His brain, right, But we all know that
doesn't happen, um, you know, in terms of act like
not really. Uh. You know, I was actually really fortunate
because when I started reporting, I went out to San
Francisco and got to visit Ben Doyle, who was the
first authorized instructor of the Golfing Machine year and taught
(29:45):
Bobby Clampitt. And then Ben Doyle passed on a couple
of years later, so I felt really lucky I was
able to spend that time with them. And Michael Murphy
was a great guy. You know, he doesn't although he's
kind of talked to a couple of people recently, but
when I talked to him, yeah, when I I when
I talked to him, it was two thousand twelve, two
thirteen something like that, so I didn't know anybody. I've
(30:09):
never seen him quoted, you know, since Golf in the
Kingdom was reviewed in The New Yorker in nineteen seventy two,
you know, I mean, it was very rare where you
ever saw him in the press. So that was a
really cool time to get to spend time with him.
And he's a guy who's just super intelligent, and he
just kind of overwhelms you with his presence a little bit.
(30:31):
So I don't know if there was anybody that really
I that I missed out on. I mean, as a reporter,
you always look back and feel like you could have
done more, but at some point you just gotta, you know,
pull the plug, right. So, UM, I don't really regret
missing anybody, um, but there are people I wish I
spend more time with. Sure now, Tiger is definitely the one,
(30:53):
and and he he has a great chapter with Lauren
Rubinstein in the book they did on the ninety seven
Masters on and gets into technology. But he to me,
he's fascinating because he has flirted with going too far
with some of these things, or has gone far too far,
but he's also kept an open mind about advancements in
(31:15):
the game. And yet the thing I've seen in the
last year and a half or so is that he
is two years really that he went there. He keeps
an eye on those things, he thinks about them, but
he's he's pulling back. He's kind of going back to
things with his I mean, one of the best answers
he gave it was at Bay Hill. I asked the
(31:37):
question just to just you know, he's doing this little
thing with his swing and rehearsing, and he went into
this whole thing about his childhood and artistry and and
I was like, whoa, where did that come from? In it?
So he he's fascinating, and I don't think it's been
documented enough because he just won't. He won't. He maybe
saving it for the book, but he won't really go
too far into because he doesn't ever want to shoot
(32:00):
down the notion of trying to get better and and
use the latest thing. He's still a believer in that.
But really one of the things that's made him most
successful in the last few years is that he has
just gone way back to essentially the fundamentals of childhood
and and some of the basics. Yeah. Well, his shift
(32:21):
jeff in personality, I think is one of the most
refreshing things that's happened in the game in a long time,
because he he has thought the game. He thinks the
game as well as anyone in history. And if we
can get a little if he would give us a
little bit more of what's going on in there, I
think it would be it would be very helpful. Um,
(32:44):
I will say there's one you know, him going back
to his childhood and thinking about how he swung the club.
I wouldn't I wouldn't put this past what I think
is really the cutting edge of technology and science in
the game right now, which is neuroscience, which is and
I touch on this in the book, and uh, you know,
(33:05):
it's learning. How we learn, you know, human beings learned.
The way your brain operates is we create memories a
lot quicker and a lot better by experience. You know,
it's by implicit experience were rather than explicit information, you know.
So to me when I kind of found that out,
(33:27):
it was, isn't this the history of education. Isn't all
education explicit information? You know? Here is what led to
World War Two? You know, and it happened on this
date and this time. But when we learn, when we
really keep that with us, it's when you get interested
in World War two and you pick up a book
on your own out of interest and read it. You know.
(33:50):
So getting back when Tiger, Tiger is such a talented guy.
When he was a kid, he played the game a
certain way because he all he was doing was really
reacting to what was happening. You know, if he hit
it right, he tried to hit it left, you know,
and that's really where neuroscience is now, is saying that's
how you get better, and that's what that's the future
(34:11):
of golf instruction. So maybe if Sean Foley, who is
good friends with this guy Mike Hebron, who is at
the front of neuroscience in the game, um, maybe that's
why he's pulling back from track man a little bit.
Or it's it's not that he's not using it, it's
just that the coach's job now is is explaining that
(34:34):
data in a way that is brain compatible, which is
a phrase that Mike Hebron uses, you know, so that
you understand it better and you create it for yourself.
You know. He likes to say you play to learn.
Human beings played to learn. So maybe what Tiger is
doing now is not only refreshing in his personality, but
(34:55):
it's refreshing in his outlook in the game because he's
playing to get better. He goes in the range and
he hits balls and he sees where they're going and
then reacts to that. And you don't want to get
too lost in that, because that's what would happen in
the you know and forever in the history game before video.
But maybe that's another refreshing aspect of it, where he's
(35:16):
playing and trusting his instincts a little bit more. So
that might be the new that might be the new
wave of of technology in the game. I think I
think he gets a lot of confidence from the fact
that he's become more self reliant again. And he looks
at a lot of the younger players and admires their talent,
(35:37):
admires their speed, they're worth a work ethic. But I
think deep down he also knows that way too many
of them are way too reliant on a group of
people around them, uh to the point of when it
comes time under the gun in a big situation, that
maybe that makes them a little less uh powerful, less interesting,
(36:01):
less strong mentally than than he is. Because he's right
on it. Yeah, he's kind of gone back to just
trusting himself a little bit more and he and that's
with age, obviously, but but you do see it. So
many of the young players now it's it's it's the
team and we have to rely on the team. And
that's great and it's made a lot of them better,
(36:21):
but you do wonder if there's a point where it
makes them weaker as competitors. I think you're right on it.
I think that's it. I think that's a really valid
point because you know, why why internalize Bob Rotella's message
when you can hire Bob Rotella, Like why understand why
(36:42):
even understand the TrackMan numbers when you can hire somebody
who understands TrackMan better than you ever are ever going to.
And that's how these guys insulate themselves. But then when
you go out and play golf, they're not there to
help you. You know, you need to know, and if
you hit one right, you're not and it feels like
you it shouldn't have gone right. What are you gonna do?
(37:05):
You know? And that's like being able to self adjust
has always been one of the biggest parts of of
being a good pro golfer. You need to be out
there and go you know. Jack Nicholas used to say
it all the time too, is he'd go to the
range and he'd find out if he was cutting it
or hooking it that day, which might be a little
bit of Jack Nicholas overstating it because he probably cut
it every day, but um, but that's part of it.
(37:28):
You have to know yourself. You have to you have
to be able to adjust on the fly, and if
you can't, you're you're not going to be able to
will it in the hole. And and you know, that's
that's probably the most explicit way to explain Tiger's advantage.
He knows himself better than anybody and always has, you know,
(37:49):
And so those guys are going to have to figure
it out. And some of them, some of them do.
I think some of them are. Some of them get it.
I mean you look at Justin. I think Justin Thomas
gets it. You know, he knows he he might pull
out track Man every you know, every Monday and Tuesday
on the range, but when he's out there, he knows
what he's doing. He swung it the same way since
he was a kid. So there are guys out there
(38:10):
that have that in them, and they're gonna have to
find it. Especially you know, it's gonna be pretty soon
when Tiger is gone, and golf's gonna look very different,
you know, for a lot of different reasons, and and
just being competitive and being one of those top players,
those guys are going to have to figure out how
to get there on their own. Yeah, Thomas is interesting
because he has the full team. His dad goes to
(38:32):
every tournament. His dad's as an instructor. Still um, but
just to give you a perfect example this year Riviera,
we we always ask about the tenth hole there and
he lays up there, which is just so uh off brand,
as I say, for him, because he's a very aggressive
player and his dad wants him to drive the green
and and just feels like and I asked him and
(38:52):
he didn't, he wasn't overly thrilled to talk to me
about it. I don't know it. It's uh a lot
of these things. They think you're trying to get out
a state secret or or maybe Justin did not have
a great day that day and he was anticipating a
long range session. I don't know. But I asked him,
why do you want him to drive the green? And
he went through his reasoning and it was good. But
(39:13):
it was fascinating to know that they just discussed this.
And but Justin's his own guy, and he knows what
his limitations are, what his strengths are, and what fits
his eye and all those things. So and I think
it's why he is uh just that notch better than
some of his other peers who have all the same
tools and um and no ability. So it's it's a
(39:35):
it's an interesting component of pro golf. Now, yeah, you know,
there are certain things you can't you can't explain, right,
I mean I have. I used this example every now
and again where I was. I started playing competitively again
a couple of years ago, and so I was playing
in the met mid Amateur at bay Own, great great
(39:56):
golf course and Jersey, and I had a caddy and
a act this round. He was a great guy, really
helped me around the golf course. And then I got
a different caddy for the first round of the tournament,
and he was a guy who thought he knew everything right.
So in the first hole, I hit two iron off
the tea. I've got like one thirty in He goes, okay,
play a hundred and forty two yards shot, and I
(40:17):
was like, I don't. I was like, I don't know
what that means, like what high low cut draw? Like
what when landed where that? I don't that that doesn't
register to me, you know, Like I can hit a
six iron a hundred forty two yards, I can hit
a pitching wedge like I don't, you know, And so
it took me a couple of holes before I had
before I was able to say, you know what, just
(40:39):
give me the number on the ground and I'll figure
it out. And that point I was five over and
like it was toast. But yeah, it's just a way.
So I'm sure justin Thomas, there's there might be something
about that hole that he just doesn't work, you know.
And if you're standing over like he could probably hit
three went up near the front of that green. If
(41:00):
you're standing over that three with and you have and
you think you have no chance to hit the shot,
you're gonna why even do it? Like it doesn't everybody
has different shots that that fit their eye and don't
fit their eye, you know. And like how many times
it Tiger miss missed the seventeenth fairway in Augustin when
I treat was there. It's just shots that just don't
(41:21):
fit your So I think that's a big part of it. Well,
and that's what I like what your book does. Unfortunately,
we have a lot of people, as you know, with
just as you've seen with baseball and other sports. I
don't know about hockey, but where they feel all the
answers are in the data and and every question can
be answered. And when somebody strokes gained off the tea
(41:45):
is is down. It must be because of this, this
and that. When there are just so many things that
can't really be explained sometimes about golf. And and it's
fascinating to watch how many people in the media side
of things expect that you can just find answers and
numbers or track man numbers and and I think you
(42:06):
do a nice job in the book of of highlighting
how yes, some we we are able to answer more
questions now, but uh, there are still so many things
you just can't address with with the data. UM. I
want to ask you, because you you primarily cover hockey.
M hm, why do hockey players love golf so much?
(42:28):
Is it? Is it because the the the motion is similar,
and there's a couple there's probably there's you know what,
there's probably a long psychological analysis of this available somewhere.
The probably the motion the season's work out in turn. UM,
I also do think they're hockey and I've covered a
(42:48):
lot of sports. I think hockey players are the most thoughtful,
um because the game kind of lends itself to that too,
So I think they're drawn to there's a lot of
improvisation in hockey, right, there's you know, coaches put in
systems and stuff. But if the game is so fast,
(43:09):
you end up having to make decisions on the move
and you have to kind of understand some theory in
your own right and what works for you and what doesn't. Um.
So I think guys that mindset kind of lends itself
to golf a little bit. Um there's probably something socio
(43:30):
economic about it as well, but that's that's a whole another,
that's a whole another path to go down. Well there,
I should I should phrase it a little bit differently.
I think they're more really good golfing hockey players. And
every sport has people who love golf, basketball, football, baseball.
(43:51):
You can go through every one of them and find
guys who are nuts about the sport of golf. Yeah,
but I I mean, I have no dat on this.
It just seem to me like there are more hockey
players who are two's and three handicap and scratch and
who are just really really good at golf. Yeah, there are,
and I know a lot of them, and they wouldn't
(44:12):
want me to tell you how good they are because
they don't want anyone to know that they play. Do
they play during the season much? Uh, they do. They
don't play a ton. They don't play a ton. But
you know, if they it depends on what's happening to
I mean, like I was, I was covering the Rangers, um,
(44:33):
and I was traveling right when, right when the season
was paused. Right, So they had a game in Denver
the night the NBA was paused. So they're out there
playing this game and I'm in an arena with twenty
people going, what are we doing here? And then the
next morning we flew to Phoenix where they were gonna
have two days off, and a couple of guys I
(44:54):
was talking to, we're gonna have their clubs down there,
but they were kind of on the bubble of a
playoff plus so maybe not, you know, even though they
were going to have a full day off and then
a day of practice and then the game, so it's
gonna be ample opportunity to play, but um, you know
they did. You know, It's that kind of maybe earlier
in the year stuff like that, they play, they're just yeah,
(45:18):
they're just drawing to the game. It's got there's something
about the mentality that is just in common. I guess well,
I find that interesting too because Steve Kerr has has
actually advocated golf during the season, and baseball has always
been open to pitchers playing golf during the season, not
so much the the everyday guys. But it's funny that
they're still considerate of the possibility that somebody would see
(45:42):
it and not the impression with the optics of it
would be would be well, you know too, they go,
they take a beating, Like these guys play. I understand
like Lebron needs his load management and and basketball is
a very tough game to play, but it's not even
close to hockey. It's not even what these guys go
through every day. I mean, so to be like a
(46:04):
lot of times too, it's like you get into the
middle of the season, you get on the road, it's
like they want to sleep. They want to sleep, they
want to ice, and that's it because that's the only
way they're gonna be able to play it all that night. UM.
Last thing, as as again, thinking of of your book,
thinking of what's going on in the world, what what
are some of the um results of this time UM
(46:31):
going to be in terms of just sports in general.
The business of sports? Is there anything in particular that
you've been thinking about as this has played out and
we've suspended sports and now we talk about when they'll
come back and but uh, and it may just be
kind of tying back to our original conversation at the
beginning of this show, But do you do you sense
(46:53):
anything in particular is going to come out of this
in terms of the world of sports? And it could
be anything business, uh, technique, mentality, anything in particular jump out.
I hope, you know, emotionally, I hope that we're all,
like I said before, were all a little bit more
kind and kind of can take a deep breath and
(47:14):
and slow down a little bit. Um. I think I
do think that economically there's gonna be a huge impact.
There already is, But I think the the repercussions from
this are going to be extreme because all of these
businesses are now getting put in the pressure cooker, so
all of the fat is going to have to come off.
(47:35):
You know, they're you're you're seeing when you have to
make a decision of what's essential and what's not out there,
and every business and every sports league you're gonna see
what works and what doesn't because you have to, uh.
And I think the PGA Tour in general kind of
they have a lot of things they have to think
about right now because I don't know if the model
(47:58):
is sustainable, especially when Tiger leaves, you know, so it's
gonna be interesting. I think this, you know, I know
a lot has been made and you've written a lot.
He's done a great job covering the the new Professional
Golf League, UM, and what's gonna come of that. I
think I think it's gonna do a little bit more
(48:19):
than just push the PGA Tour. It's gonna kind of
it's gonna kind of weak people up to the fact
that maybe things do need to change for the better
of the game. And I don't know if that's the
answer or not, because who knows, UM, But the PGA
Tour has kind of just been strolling along watching Tiger
Woods bringing, you know, raise purses exponentially and and that
(48:42):
cash cow is gonna leave at some point. And I
think this is kind of when things shrink, when the
economy shrinks, I think you kind of have to look
around and see what works and what doesn't. UM. And
I really hope that things get better because of it,
not just ENGLF, but in other sports too. I mean, like,
what's gonna be that what's the best way to operate,
(49:03):
you know what, what's the what's the best way to
do with salary cats and luxury taxes and players and
and uh, you know, maybe maybe fans stop getting gouged
to walk into the stadium. Maybe there's maybe there's more
affordable seats and less you know, you're going to Yankee
Stadium now it's like walking, it's ridiculous. You know. At
least Dodger Stadium still has there's still some sense of
(49:26):
baseball being played, you know. I mean, oh, it's been
a while since I've been there, but yeah, you know,
something like that. Like I do, I do think that
when things tighten up, they get more efficient, you know,
And I'm hoping that's a practical result of this. And
I do think the p g A Tour specifically has
(49:49):
some things I have to think about. No, I think
you're right it. But it is interesting when you look
at the tour situation. Every sport was having these discuss
before this hit, shortening seasons and and rethinking things. I
mean really, every single sport was already pondering that maybe
(50:10):
we need to be doing something. I I think that
was just a collective bloat. Uh, it's just a little
too much of everything. Cash grab. It's been a cash
graph for years. You know. There's a really interesting uh
mathematicians scientist Eric Weinstein. I don't know if you know,
I mean, guys, he's a great podcast actually called The
Portal um and he's talked a lot about, Uh, the
(50:34):
economy has expanded so much and everyone is basing their
businesses on that constant expansion and that's probably not sustainable,
you know. So so the NFL going expanding teams and
expanding the season and and major League Baseball one and
you know, they want to suck every cent outre and
(50:55):
eventually it's going to dry up that men, Eventually you're
gonna start level lean out of expansion. It's it's just
it's just natural or you know, I don't know, I'm
not an economist, but that's that seems natural to me. Um.
So I feel like they're gonna have the sports leagues
are gonna have a lot of difficult questions coming up.
Also because viewerships down, who and people young people don't
(51:18):
care that much. It's not the same. Uh, you know,
it's not the same business model as it was of
selling television rights and and sitting there and now CBS
has exclusive rights that you know, it doesn't work like
that anymore. And you'll see it when when Facebook and
and Google and other places come in and start bidding
for rights, and it's it's gonna change the game. Things
(51:40):
are gonna change drastically in the next ten years or so.
And I think this is going to be kind of
an impetus a push for sports leagues in terms of
figuring out what's gonna work in the future. Well, I
know you didn't time it this way, but I really
feel like your book will be a great read for
people of all different ages, although as you you were
saying that, I thought, you know a younger. What I
(52:01):
love about your book is that somebody under gosh, under
thirty five probably now we'll read this and things that
I'm reading about golf and the Kingdom and the and
the golf machine that that I know about, uh, they
have no concept of because it's just those are things
that haven't been highlighted. And I I think they'd leave
your book understanding that there is that there is a
(52:24):
place to find between science and art um which I
think we've we've personally, I think golf has gone a
little too far towards the science side, and I think
a lot of sports have. And it'll be interesting to
see if this this time away, where people have had
a chance to ponder things will will kind of movie equilibrium, uh,
in a different direction away from just all all all science,
(52:48):
all that all the time. So um, well, congratulations, it's
many years in the making, while eight years almost right,
So that's uh, that's incredible. Well, congratulations. I will put
all sorts of good information on my website as to
where people can get the book. And uh, Brett, thank
you so much, and and please be safe there on
(53:09):
Long Island. Yeah, thank you, Jeff, I appreciate the time
you too. Be safe. Thank you again to Bretta Gallis
for joining us to talk about golf's holy war, the
battle for the soul of a game in an age
of science. I will, as always, put together some show
notes highlighting what Brett does in this book where you
(53:30):
can find him. You know, he's doing some zoom chats
in lieu of book signings. So if you have a
group of golf buddies at a club or something, and
you're looking for a guest speaker. He, as you heard
in that show, is a very eloquent, smart, interesting guy
to talk all sports with, but in particular golf and
hockey his two favorites. I will also note a few
(53:54):
things related to our discussion and put those in the
show notes, because I think it's fun to you at
this time that we have to review and ponder uh
the role of technology science in the game. It's an
ideal time and he certainly sets the table beautifully with
this book. So uh it's an excellent read and you'll
(54:16):
you'll definitely enjoy it. As always, The Shack Show is
a production of I R Radio, and that production is
handled by Tim Perrotica. Thank you so much to Tim
for making the show listenable and fun and cleaning up
my various little uh ticks and mistakes. You're a good
man for doing it. Remember The Shack Show as a
production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart,
(54:36):
just visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I will be
back soon with more here on The Shack Show.
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