Bruce Feldman On Ryan Day's Turbulent Triumph & Intel From Around CFB

In this college football podcast episode, Dan chats with Bruce Feldman of The Athletic and Fox Sports about turbulent triumph for Ohio State head coach Ryan Day during the Buckeyes' national championship run. He also talks trends inside coaching circles, issues surrounding LSU's Brian Kelly and USC's Lincoln Riley, the ascendance of Arizona State's Kenny Dillingham, the struggles of Wisconsin's Luke Fickell, the possibility of burnout surrounding coaches like Oregon's Dan Lanning, Georgia's Kirby Smart, and Texas's Steve Sarkisian, the elixir of desperation and alignment at places like Ole Miss, and much more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the solid verbal.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hell for me, I'm a man, I'm.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
For I've heard so many players say, well, I want
to be happy. You want to be happy for Dake,
Edith Steak, is that woo woo? And Dan and Tie? Hey, everybody,
and welcome to the solid verbal. I am doing this
introduction me Dan, not Tye, Tye because Tie is busy
at the moment dealing with some family stuff. Thankfully, everybody's okay,

(00:29):
but just you know, Tie's a human, he has to
deal with some stuff and look after some stuff. So
I am joined today by a list Hall of Fame
Mount Rushmore solid verbal guest from the Athletics, Slash, New
York Times, Slash, Fox Sports, Slash, UH, The Audible Podcast
with Stu Mandel, Bruce Feldman. How you doing, I'm doing good.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
I'm hoping, UH, I'm hoping everything's good on Tie's end,
it is, it is, Yeah, and so it's awesome to
deal with you in the UH. I feel like a
special connection now that I've actually had the food you serve.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
M Yes, I appreciate that yeah, much better than I
thought it was going to be.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
You went into that dinner with mediocre expectations.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
I went into the thinking would be good, but like,
and I'm not just you know, blowing smoke at you,
but like the best crew tons I've ever had in
my life?

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Are you the best piece I've ever had in my life?

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Just like I could not get over how a skinny
guy can make such good food.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
I appreciate that. It's it's come a long ways. It's
a good meal, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. Here's
my question for you. Is it slow off season wise?
Is it different in that you're both covering games and
covering you know, news items and coaching hires, just because
you've been in the mix with so many big coaching

(01:51):
hires and changes behind the scenes, and this year it
was like Purdue North Carolina UCF, It wasn't didn't feel
as major.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Those were the big Those are the bigger ones.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, but everything else feels chaotic and exploding around it,
just not the hires, if that makes sense right.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
So I think it's an interesting shift. The beat is
certainly not like the NFL. And what I mean by
that is there's there's some transactional news, but ultimately it's
like and I'm not to diminish it, but you know,
at least from the fox side of my job, like
eighty percent of that stuff is not rising up to

(02:29):
the level that my bosses are going to care that
much about, you know, and whereas and even at the
Athletic now, I think there's times where I'll say, hey,
I'm hearing such and such, and there are stories that
there are stories that they wouldn't want stories on. I mean,
I could tweet out the news of those things, but

(02:53):
I don't think that there are things that would end up, Hey,
we're going to go to the trouble to have an
editor work this story up and posted.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
They just that's not I think part of it. Now.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
There's certain things like I we're taking this Monday morning
and yesterday early afternoon, I'm about to take my son
to his basketball game, and I got a tip about
Notre Dame who they were targeting to their defensive coordinator,
Chris ash and so I started making calls and I
because that's it's Notre Dame, it's it's obviously a big job,

(03:26):
it's a recognizable name. And so reached out to my
colleague on the Notre name be for the Athletic. Pete
Sampster does a terrific job, and he was able to
go further on that and then I'm like literally on
the bleachers of the game, and he he was like,
you know, I said, hey, whatever you can. You know,
if you feel like where it's buttoned up or where
you know, beyond that, then just let me know. I'll

(03:48):
just retweet whatever you tweeted out kind of thing. But
so you're trying to have, as you know, as as
a father with two kids, young kids, you're trying to
have like some sense of a real work life balance,
especially now because to be honest, there's a lot of
stuff down the rabbit hole of you know, we were

(04:09):
a bunch of us were at the National title game
in Atlanta last week, and you know, I have really
good colleagues at the Athletic Ralph Russeau has been a
tremendous addition for us, and he's done a really good
job covering the sport. But we had Ralph, we had
Chris Finy, Like, we don't need to have four people

(04:29):
at a meeting where we know going in there's probably
very little chance anything is going to happen about like
the CFP getting tweaked this year as opposed to next year.
So I think what you have to do for your
own sanity sake is pick your spots. I mean, if
you chase every cat and every you know, rabbit that's

(04:50):
out there and every squirrel, I think you're just going
to be like a zombie. And some of the stuff
that I would pursue before, I probably won't now, just
because my kids are ten years old, and I want
to know, I don't want to have a.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Lot of regrets about that.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
But the stuff I mean to get to not to
get too long run, but the stuff that me is
the most important. Things I can do as to serve
the reader or the consumer of the audiences that I
work for is to talk to coaches and know what's
going on, why things have happened in different things for
you know, for me, the best story I could do

(05:26):
for the athletic around the National Title game was to
try to get the story of Ryan Day's family what
the last you know, fifty days had been like from
the Michigan game to the National Title game. That was
what I was really trying to get at, and I
was happy with, you know, thankful that they opened up
to me the way, you know, Ryan Day's wife and

(05:47):
Ryan DA's son r J. Did, But like I feel like,
you just have to pick your spots and.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
You have to know what you know what best serves
the audience.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Let's go for there, because that was obviously a story
that got a lot of conversation going about what it's
like to be Ryan Day, what it has been like
to be Ryan Day, not just in the past fifteen days,
but overall in his time in Columbus. Obviously the unique
circumstance of both losing to Michigan for four years in
a row and winning the national championship and having his

(06:21):
job and his life come under scrutiny. Even more so,
you followed coaches, You've covered coaches for a long time
in various fish bowls around the country. Did the depths
of what they went through surprise you? Was it just
a more pronounced version of what other coaches and families
have gone through? To what degree was that unique? That

(06:41):
sort of experience?

Speaker 2 (06:43):
I thought this was unique.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
You know, going back certain parts of it, I can
remember Bill Curry, you know, just such a decent man
who had been the Alabama coach around nineteen ninety, was
a really good college coach. Then you know, he's a
Georgia tech guy I played had seen everything played for,
you know, Vince Lombardi and the NFL the heyday, and

(07:07):
so he told me some stories about, you know, getting
a brick thrown through his window because they couldn't beat Auburn.
They couldn't beat Auburn, and it was crazy. But that
was a different time in terms of like people are
way more connected and way more exposed in terms of
social media. It's not hard to get somebody's cell phone.

(07:28):
We know that happened with Nina Deay, Ryan's wife. It's
not hard to know where people live. And I think
because we've seen so much crazy stuff happen in our society,
I could see like when she told me about it,
and I know from you know, being having some people
really close to them, I knew some of the stuff

(07:49):
they were dealing with.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
It escalated a lot.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
It seems like after the loss, this particular loss to Michigan,
it was the fourth one in the row. This was
not a great Sighan team by any stretch. It happened
at home, and so, you know, knowing some of that
going in, I think there's like Kirk Krbstreet, you know,

(08:14):
who knows you know, he's the voice of the sport,
right he's been learning it for thirty thirty plus years
and has amazing access. And he's also from you remember,
like Kirk moved from Columbus where he was you know,
his dad coached at Ohio State. Kirk played there, you
know obviously you know the whole story. But then they
moved to Nashville, and I remember Kirk has been pretty

(08:35):
outspoken about like certain things, and he was in the
you know, Ohio State, I think blew out Tennessee. And
then he's, you know, late in the game, he's starting
to kind of talk about some of that stuff.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
And so.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
When I after they win the national like right after
the one of the first people I see on the
field is a guy named Stanley Spiro. And Stanley is
Ryan Day's father in law, and he's known Ryan since
he was like nine. But he's also like a legendary
Division two basketball coach. He was at a school in
New Hampshire and he was up for the Basketball Hall

(09:08):
of Fame a year ago. So like he's had over
six hundred wins. That's the like Ryan Day's wife grew
up in that household of the college basketball coach where
they were great, but that stuff, like as he was
telling me, was like, you know, the challenges that becoming
a coach's family often is like the mom raises everything,

(09:30):
the mom runs does all of it because the dad
is either on the road recruiting or doing especially it's
different to be a college football coach. And it probably
was a Division two basketball coach in that part of
the country, sure, but this is times a thousand because
now you got a hated rival. And you know, look,
I work with Urban Meyer on the Big Noon Show.

(09:51):
I feel like it's almost every week he'll reference seven
and zero.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
You know, it's like it is such.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
A big part of Ohio State's identity tied to Michigan
that that got ramped up in a way. I know
it was bad for John Cooper, you know where twenty
five years ago, but it was way worse now, right,
And so, I mean Ryan Day's record now he's seventy
and ten. There's like one coach in major foot college
football history who has a better winning perception persons as

(10:21):
new Rockney. I mean Larry caraz is a lower divisions
coach who hadn't even you know, legend too, but like
just in terms of the major college football right now.
That's insane, and there were a lot of people thinking
he should be fired if he doesn't win the playoffs.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Right now, from my perspective.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
Knowing him, knowing his family and knowing that, you know,
mental health has been a big important issue to him
because his father died by suicide when he was like
eight or nine years old, and so they've been very
vocal and very proactive.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
On that issue.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
I'm sitting there after the Notre Dame, after I'm sorry,
after the Michigan game, thinking I'm still in Columbus, like,
if they don't win the win the national title, and
they're talented enough to certainly do it, but if they don't,
I wonder if he's going to say, you know, if
this isn't worth it for my family and me. I
was going to say, you know, and I wrote something
about that because just knowing how hard it was on them,

(11:18):
Like RJ.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
His son told me, school was really rough.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
He had grown men basically you know, coming after him.
They hired their own, you know, security firm round the clock.
His grandfather, the grandfather stayed with them an extra ten days.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
The grandfather, by the way, has been battling cancer.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
You know, he put off a procedure for prostate just
so he could make sure he would be at the
national title game.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
You know, it's just it's it's.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
A pretty remarkable story behind the scenes of what's been
going on. But to answer your question, this was way
different than anything I've ever heard.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
And it's already that job. A number of these jobs
are already all in encompassing, right that you're recruiting all
year long. You're monitoring portal stuff, you are dealing with
your own roster, you're figuring out coaches coming in and out,
you're expanding your whatever, your recruiting department. There's a million
different things that keep these guys up at nights. So
this is a unique situation for Ryan Day in terms

(12:17):
of the blowback that he and his family received after
losing to Michigan. There's almost no winning if you don't
win a national championship every year. How long does a
human have the stomach to coach at Ohio State? If
that is the reality, that is a great question. You know,
like I can never say if I was Ryan Day.

(12:39):
I just can't get my head to go there.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
But you know, you have a guy who now he
needs coach, unlike you know, his predecessor, Urban Meyer, unlike
Lou Holtz, unlike Steus Sprayer, Like he'd been in the NFL,
Like he knows what that world is like, right and
better or worse. I think as a as a national
CHAMPI lemanship winning coach. And he's a good offensive coach.
Remember like he was running it until e Iron Chip

(13:05):
to take over. But I think and they were really
good on offense. I think, you know, he's different than
I'm not saying he's Harbaugh because Harbaugh was with the
Niners and took a mediocre team and got him to
the super Bowl, like pretty fast. Right, Say what you
want about that guy. That guy knows what he's doing
as a coach. But for I think the NFL teams

(13:29):
are gonna be really skittish on taking just a college guy.
But this is not like this is a guy now
is woner national title. This is a guy who's coached
in the NFL. This is a guy who has a
good understanding of offense. I think he has a really
good we saw this. He has a great connection with
his players. I mean a lot of guys stayed because
they wanted to play there, play together and play for him.

(13:49):
I don't know how long you can sustain that, you know,
I don't know how long you want Like and I'm
not saying he's like, Okay, I won my national title.
I've proven it to myself. You know, this is a
special team. Like right now, it's not like there's you know,
we're going into a different NFL hiring cycle. We obviously
know that the Cowboys just made their hire and and
there's you know, most of the I think the Saints

(14:11):
is like, as we're taking us the only thing that's opened, right, So,
but I don't know how long If you're him, do
you want to do you want to do this? And
and what's the next thing though? Is it it's if
you're going to be a head coach, does it go
to the NFL? I mean, I would think it is,
because it's like it'd be hard to get a better job.

(14:31):
If you're a college coach in Ohio State, you're the
most resource program basically there. You recruit like you're an
SEC school, but you're not in the SEC.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
You know, and you have.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
You know, you do have a lot of support, and
I think that will be an interesting thing.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
How long?

Speaker 3 (14:48):
How long does he want to stay in this situation.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
What do you hear around the country, especially at those
higher profile places, that like, all of these guys are
burning the candle both ends. Dan Lanning, Steve Sarkisian, whoever,
Billy Napier or anywhere in the country. The sport broke
Nick Saban, who is unbreakable. The sport broke him because
of the you know, the challenges of the portal and
nil and he had just reached a breaking point. What

(15:15):
do you hear about, like the sustainability of being a
major college football coach. The money's nice, That's why the
money's there, But like, can you if you're and here's
an example, like if you're Dan Lanning, can you spend
the next fifteen years of your life doing this and
maintain sanity?

Speaker 3 (15:34):
I don't know, but I think you can spend the
next five And I think they have to really think
in terms of that window. Like I've gotten close to
Chris Peterson. He's a brilliant guy. You know, work with
him at Fox. He has become a huge resource for
coaches and coaches some of them who aren't that old,
who are like they're they're like boiling inside about it,

(15:56):
not just coaches in the in college, also in the NFL.
I think burnout is a real thing, and I don't
I think the guys who sit there and go, I'm
gonna do this for twenty years are kidding themselves.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, you know, maybe five years.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
Dan Lanning is a good is a good one to
bring up because Dan Lning's still very young, right, He's like,
I feel like he's in his sweet spot right now,
you know, does that change five or six years from now?
Like I feel like this coaching is going to become
like dog years now, like like the North Carolina folks

(16:32):
and Bill Belichick can talk about like yeah, it's going
to be like an NFL model and everything. It's like
you can say that now because you've been on the
job for like three weeks, right, But like enough people
I know who are actually been doing a job for
a while, Like, yeah, he's going it's going to drive
him what mad when.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
He Wait until he's in seven high schools in New
Jersey in like a twenty hour period.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Wait till he's just you know, like hounded by some
players at who's turned into the agent? Right, And that
happens a lot, And it's just like you know, you're
not dealing with CIA and and.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
These agents all the time.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
You're dealing with like guys who popped up out of
nowhere who are now you know, trying to rep the
players and everything else.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
And that can be exhausting. No matter what.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
You can have a personnel department all you want. I
think like Nick Saban had all those things, and I
think dealing with you know, I don't want to call
it necessarily entitlement, which the change to how the athlete
is wired now in this day and age, I think
that became way way different for him. And so he

(17:39):
you know, he bailed out to go into TV. Now,
look he's in his early seventies. Yeah, you know, Dan
Lanning is not. John Sumral is not. You know, Lane
Kiffen is not. I think it's different when you're that age.
Once you I think, get over fifty five, I think
things start to get get a lot heavier, right, And

(18:01):
you know, I don't know what that range is because look,
there's plenty of coaches. Kurt Signetti is whatever he is,
sixty three, Lance Lightehold is around that. There's really good
coaches who are in their prime in their early mid
sixties and It's not to say that the places they're at,
you know, in Lisos two example, Kansas and Indiana, they're
both obviously great basketball schools. I don't think the level

(18:24):
the pressure to win is at the same level. Certainly
it is at Ohio State where it's like unforgiving, you know,
like that level.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
You better you know where eleven and three is a
bad year, right, So I don't know.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
I think it's I think we're talking about five year
windows now. We're not talking about, oh yeah, this guy's
going to be one of the you know, one of
the all time grades twenty years from now.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
One name we haven't mentioned, haven't brought up somebody who
is that same level of expectation. And I don't know
how much I saw this like around, but I had
John Talty and Armin Katayn's book I think it's called
The Price recently, and they mentioned Kirby Smart was positive
he was retiring three years ago, I think the summer
three summers ago three or four something like that, in

(19:12):
the midst of Georgia building up this monster. Does he
have five years left in him? I mean, running Georgia
seems like twenty four to seven nothing but stresses nothing
but again burning the candle at both ends. He's not old,
but he's definitely somebody who strikes me as somebody who

(19:34):
could be like, you know what, I was this close before.
I'm just fried. My kids aren't super old, and I'm
just opting for a you know, a part two of
my coaching life or my life in general.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
I know, Dan, I go to the NFL Combine every
year and I run into so many coaches I know
who are former college coaches, and a lot of them
made the move actually, you know, like more than three
years ago.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
I'm talking maybe they moved five years ago.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
It was still kind of nutty in terms of the calendar,
but it wasn't like this where you have agents who
are you know, we're basically coming up to coaches like
seemingly like every couple of weeks to be like to
try to get a better deal or to try to
you know, get somebody.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Poached off their roster.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Right, those things are different, and there is no right now,
there is no off season for college coaches. You can say, oh, yeah,
we have a big person all department. It's not you know,
like the coaches are still involved in that and the
guys I know who went to the NFL. Very few
do I know look back and be like, yeah, I'd
want I want to be involved in that right now.

(20:41):
The circumstance may have dictated that they ended up bouncing
back because they were looking for a you know, a job.
But I think the money is good. The money can
be very good in college obviously.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
I mean, look what you know.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
Jim Knowles is getting over three million dollars year to
be a coordinator, and I think there's certainly a lot
of coordinators who are now making seven figures. But in
the NFL, and again their the NFL is like it's
hard to stay up there too, right because they have
guys get fired after one year. You can go from

(21:14):
hot to cold in a hurry, but the quality of
life is way different, I think for them, and that's
a much more attractive destination. I think for Kirby Smart,
you have a guy who won two national titles. Felt
like he should be close to, you know, in the
mid middle of it for a little bit. But I
would be surprised if he's there for ten more years.

(21:36):
It's just like just seems like it's so much he's
a grinder and it's so much of a grind, Like
when does he sit there and think, you know, like, Okay,
I want to try to you know, maybe I'm better
served to be an NFL coach. I mean again, everything
I've heard is, you know, Athens is a great place,
you know, to raise a family, and he's got relatively

(21:56):
young family, as you said, So I don't know, you know.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
That there's probably consideration to that.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
If I moved to become pick the team, if I
moved to become the Green Bay Packers head coach or
the you know, or the Denver Broncos head coach, I'm
uprooting my family.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
You know.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
It's like that was a really successful high school coach
in Georgia. I'm sure they're very comfortable in that part
of the country. So there's only I think there's a
balance there too to that.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
How has this sort of a MorphOS blob of like
the money behind the scenes evolved in this new era.
I just wonder because we have not seen boosters programs
willing to pay huge buyouts recently. I think, aside from
Jimbo that like we've seen these deals and maybe these
types of deals with your forty fifty sixty seventy million

(22:48):
dollars guaranteed are going to dry up. But it seems
like we're seeing less coaches fired and maybe boosters are
saying like, I'd rather spend money on Dylan Gabriel Caleb
Downs then put it into like firing this coach and
we don't even trust you to hire a new guy.
Have the wins shifted behind the scenes in terms of

(23:11):
how money is viewed with coaches as it relates to
portal andile whatever.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
That's a good question.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
So in November Ish, myself and a colleague of mine
from Athletic Matt Baker, did a story about what the
hell went wrong at Florida State this year? Yeah, and
you know, so we had interviewed a ton of people
and it wasn't like a bash Mike norvel session or
anything like that. It was just like what.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Actually happened there.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
He's dramatic change.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah, Yeah, and he did a terrific job. I think
he's a really really good coach. And he did a
terrific job getting them to thirteen and zero before they
got snunked from the playoff and then obviously it fell
apart this year. But our editor said you should try
to talk to an ad or two to see.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Like which is what you just said?

Speaker 3 (23:54):
You know, we just saw the year before Texas and
M ate a massive amount of money to get rid
of Jimbo.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
And so I talked to an ad at a big,
big school and this person was like, I think Texas,
A and.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
M is really a one off.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I think there's really only like one maybe, And he said,
I think Texas could probably eat this contract, like in
theory a bunch of us could. Yeah, we could eat
seventy million dollars. But it's like after you get through it,
you're like whoa, Like that's not something that you know,
Like it's too much damage on the back end.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
It's almost like maybe this is the wrong analogy. It
probably is.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
But when I worked at CBS Sports Network, we had
this is like fifteen twelve years ago, there was Hurricane
Sandy came through and just we had a big, fancy
news studio by Chelsea Piers and it just was like
literally under like twelve feet of water. And so I
remember I asked somebody there, I'm like, are they going

(24:52):
to rebuild it? And the person was like, they'll have
the insurance will pay for it.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
But insurance, like you won't get the that insured again.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Like it's like you can get the money back, but
don't You're not going to be like you can't do
that again kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
You won't be able to get that insured or whatever
it was.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
And like the point of this is like right now,
there's two examples of guys who I think are on
a hot seat going into twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
One is Brian Kelly.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
You know, he's got a place where the last three
head coaches won national titles. They you know, they had
a Heisman winner and two high level receivers and they
you know, they weren't great. They were good, but in
this year they were not, you know, they really struggled.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Now they've loaded up in the portal.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
He's been vocal about them not you know, losing bidding
wars or whatever you want to say. They should have
a really loaded team. I mean, this is a team
that is released should make the playoff. It's a twelve
team playoff. Sure it's not like Alabama's there. Georgia's feel
clearly taken a little bit of a step back. So
you know, they don't I don't know how that fan

(26:02):
base and that that leadership, you know, handles it. An
example more close to what you know, what you go
up around is USC, like they made a splash hire
to get Lincoln Riley here, and the old regime pre
gen Cohen, you know, really stuck, you know, like got
a really lopsided contract.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, you know if.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
It's you know, if it would have cost ninety two
million dollars to try to part ways with Lincoln Riley
this winter, like the USC didn't have that. I don't know,
what does you know if they go six and six
or seven and five do money people who have not
been as far from the best I can tell, been
very engaged to all of a sudden they.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Go, Okay, this is enough.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
We're going to get seventy eight or whatever it is
to move on from Lincoln Riley. I don't know, but
like that's a program which I mean, credit to them
they were able to keep Dant and Lynn because I
think he's excellent. I think it was really important for them.
You know, if they had lost him too, that would
have been a gut punch. But I just don't feel

(27:04):
like like that's a program where you're like, at least LSU,
you know, you can sit there and go like I
think that, you know, I think Garrettnsmeyer's a legit Heisman
candidate going into this year. And they have added a
ton of speed in the portal and added some really
good players, Like Okay, I think they're you know, the
expectations should be there. If I'm watching USC right now,

(27:26):
I'm a USC fan, I'm like, I don't know, it's
hard for me to see better than eight and four
this year.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, And it's also right if you gave Jen Cohen
truth Saram and you said, do you want to coach?
That's half the cost of Lincoln Riley and take the
five million dollars and add it to the nil pool
every year, it actually seems like ads might have more
leverage than ever before. It seems like it's never been
more difficult to take on a huge, a new, huge job,

(27:54):
because the roster you're inheriting is going to be immediately
picked apart that all the kids are going to leave
for the portal and see what you're going to get,
and that in stacked major conferences. As you know, the
Big ten sec, Big twelve has expanded, It's never been
muddier at the top to come into a huge job,
and you know, within a year or two be incredible.

(28:16):
And so I wonder if this is like we talk
about like, oh, the players have so much more power now,
it almost seems like ads have perhaps more power than
they did in the in the modern era.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
If you if you followed competence like right now exactly,
I mean, you know, like they walked in in this
specific example of like you know, a very largely incompetent
regime that just wanted to make a splash and then
didn't and then just wasn't going to be around for
for when you threw the cinder block and the kiddie pool,

(28:47):
right you know after that.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
So yeah, no, that's fair enough. I yeah, I just
I wonder if the era of those types of buyouts
that like Jimmy Sexton had it good for a long time,
but it might be a little bit different now.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
Don't kid yourself, gimmy seconds all you're gonna have a
kid this is around. It'll like there's enough tentacles of
things and everything where you know, I think that group
of high level agents are always going to still figure
a way to be to be very very engaged.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
I think it's the parts where because also.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
There's always going to be either desperation or incompetence in
the leadership part of these college programs.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
And I'm talking usually about like administrative wise.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
Whether it's a president who's clueless about college athletics or
an ad who's in over their skis.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Did anything surprise you outside of the coaching carousel this
off season? Anything in the way of the portal. Did
you hear any transfer stories that even for you who
has heard it that like, oh they tampered, how oh
they contacted this person? How was there anything you don't
have to name names, whatever you're comfortable with, but anything

(30:08):
where you're just like, man, this is a different world.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
One of the things that surprised me was the number, Like,
and again, Chip Brown, who's been on the Texas beat
for a long time and does a really good job,
he he'd reported that.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Quen you were as a turned down.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
I think eight million dollars, right, that number is staggering
from this standpoint.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
A year of eight million dollars.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, and he's he's a good quarterback, but he's also
a quarterback who had been injured. Like, he's never had
a whole season when he was at Texas. It was
always a couple of games he missed, and I'm just
sitting there going like, would Texas Tech be the school
that would would make that kind of like big you know,
it just it's an it's it's an incredible amount of money.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
If that's what it was.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
Now, I think we have to keep And I say
this again, this is a reflection on Chip at all,
because I got a terrific reporter. But I think there's
what I've learned over the last few years is you
got to take these numbers with a grain of salt.
Like about a year ago, we did a story at
the Athletic where it was like it was like a

(31:15):
three part series, and I remember one of the best
resources I had for this was when I talked to
a quarterback who had been and who had transfer multiple times.
But also and it's a guy I knew, so I
had already had like a rapport with him for years,
and he had been at at you know, he'd been
at a combined training center where there was other like,

(31:37):
you know, ten other athletes there that after three months,
you know, they're pretty close. And so he had a
lot of information. And I'm not saying that somebody couldn't
Abestim or Bella or whatever. But he was explained a
lot of things to me about how some of these
things actually work that I don't think i've you know,
I it was he brought a lot of stuff to light.

(31:58):
And then you started like kind of referencing it with
the coaches, and I'm like, WHOA, this is way different.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Than the perception because I feel like a lot of.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Times it's very surfacey, Like if you look on social media,
you know this winner, you'll see a lot of Johnny
Smith is intentsical in the portal says agents so and so,
And it's usually an agent who is like nobody had
ever heard of till you know, ten minutes ago, right,

(32:27):
And so it's people who are starting the starting their
business and trying to build leverage the business. They're also
trying to set a market, you know. And so I
think you take that stuff with a grain of salt.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
And so it's just very interesting.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Like I had a conversation with a coach over Christmas
and then it eventually got into, yeah, we had one
of our players who like and this coach was like
almost incredulous that this guy became a real hot commodity
in the portal and so as we're talking. I googled
his name and I was like, whoa, this guy is

(33:02):
way higher ranked than this guy is talking about like
and he was like just kind of you know, he
know him better than probably the coaches who are going
to recruited him, you know, like this winner because he
coached him.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
And he was just like, you know, it's it's just
a really interesting.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
That he's just a guy, right, that there was.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
A guy who has traits.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
He's a guy who has traits but really couldn't be
counted on in the field because there's a lot of
stuff because there's just so many mental mistakes and different things,
and these were the shortcomings are that you probably wouldn't
know unless.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
You work with the person every day.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
And the point of it is like it's very murky
in the portal space, right, So I it's interesting, but
like you know, you were asking me in the beginning
about like you know, and I felt I was like,
how are you chasing all these things left and right?
Because there's so much stuffs the portal. I feel like

(33:59):
it's like you got to be I get why it's news.
And I mean, like I one of the guys who's
you know, neck deep in it is our friend Max
Olson's who's a great guy, you good reporter and very smart,
and it's just like, man, this is this could be
dizzying when you get into it. Maxim I used to
have when I work with him at the Athletic last

(34:21):
last year, we'd have some interesting conversations not arguments, but
just interesting conversations about the stuff we'd heard from different
sources about certain players. And you know, and certainly guys
can flourish in different spots.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
I mean, look at the school that you went to.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
I mean, I don't know how many people outside of
maybe maybe three would have been like, oh yeah, Bonix
is going to be tear it up in on the
other side of the country and then go be a
terrific young NFL quarterback.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
Right, I mean that can happen in the right system.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Like I saw firsthand how amazing Joe Burrow was, you know,
like he's the one guy I've seen in the last
ten years was a quarterback. I'm like, oh yeah, I
bet my money on him being an NFL star because
I know what he was like and I know what
the coaches thought of him. Yet and again, this is
no fault on Joe Burrow. I mean he didn't. You know,

(35:13):
they picked Dwayne Haskins, who was a huge recreui. We
ended up throwing for like fifty times. It was you know,
the guy they picked couldn't throw. But it's just it's
that thing that's that's it's like a it's the new
version of recruiting. Like you and I both, I know
you like recruiting more than you probably you know more.

(35:34):
It's more trouble than it's worth. But it's a fascination,
right And I definitely had that too. That's why I
did meet market and I think there's a lot of
us like that. I just think with the portal because
there's another layer of it, because it's the money part
of it that takes it into like ooh, this is
this is.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Like this is murky, this is a little sleazy, but
this is definitely interesting.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
What changed at Michigan. I mean, obviously the loser changes
people and gets people riled up. And you know the
stories about Larry Ellison's girlfriend or wife going to Michigan
and him putting money into the program, and obviously Bryce
Underwood was a huge thing, Like how often does that
happen where just like oh, the right person has a

(36:18):
fire lit under them. And now you know, the sort
of calculus behind the scenes has changed immensely. And what
do you know about Michigan.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
Desperation changes things look like desperation and alignment are a
dangerous combination. And so Oregon has it because Phil Knight,
you know, I feel I once sor in a national
title before he's not with us anymore.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, and so you have that, I mean same, what's
that same?

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Same for me?

Speaker 1 (36:48):
I'd like to organ to win a national title. I
just don't have, you know, the capital.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah, But like ole Miss, super ambitious, super aggressive. They've
ramped up their portal in a big way. Walker Jones,
who was a or a player back in the nineties.
You know, they're really good at that, you know. And
I think they've given Lane Kiffin more resources than Ole
Miss's probably ever had, certainly ever had, you know. But

(37:14):
when it comes to Michigan, it was a rough year,
and I think there's a there's some unique pieces of this,
right Like I think the way Jim Harbaugh operated and
every year for the last three years Jim Harbaugh danced
with the NFL. It was not a surprise that Jim
Harball was going to leave after he won a national title. Fact,

(37:35):
it would have been a real surprise if we stayed.
But so because of that, I think a few things happened.
I think the collective was kind of like, how much
has it factored in? From what I was told from
people inside the Michigan program, Jim Harball was not aggressively
going after Rice Underwad, who's obviously a local quarterback and
super talented.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
It was like, hey, let the SEC fight over him, right.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
And then after Harbaugh to come out here to the
West Coast to be an NFL coach, Michigan brought back
Sean McGee, who is a Naval Academy guy and very smart,
and he'd been in the NFL in the front office
with the Bears.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
He came back.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
He's the GM and I think from what I've heard,
it was a big priority for him. And for sure
own more. This guy's in our back. You already grow
up a Michigan fan. What are we doing here? And
I think the alignment they had and Michigan has real
money people, Yeah, it's just like Larry whatever, Like if
it's Larry Ellison's wife.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
That's what I initially heard.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
It was yeah, like you know, obviously that's you know,
an insane amount of money they have access.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
To, but it's not like Michigan has. You know, you
go into the Michigans.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
There are certain Big Ten schools that the pool is
way deeper than you get at a lot of SEC schools,
where it may be you know, three big boosters who
have money burning a hole in their pocket, but then
if it doesn't work out, he gets sideways with them.
The roster on those people is not as deep now
Texas and m I know, it's an Mesagy school. Different story,
same thing with Texas because you have a lot of

(39:03):
energy money, but Michigan has that, and I think in
this version of it talking to people at Michigan, they're
more confident about it in this model than they were
in the back in the day of under the table
money because this is something that they feel like they're
way better resource than most of the SEC is to

(39:25):
win a lot of these battles.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
In that conference. In the Big Ten, there's a school
that is kind of the most confusing to me, But
I also feel like might be sort of a victim
of the modern era, and that's Wisconsin. Wisconsin was the
homegrown guys in Wisconsin, Minnesota and nearby states. You're building
up great lines. They've got NFL players all over the place.

(39:49):
They hire a guy fresh off of the playoff in
Cincinnati and Luke Fickle and it just seems to have
gone sideways. I mean they've dealt with injuries obviously, notably
a quarterback, but even like Tyler Van Dyke never I
don't think really struck the fear of God into the
Wisconsin schedule. Is this sort of just like we know

(40:09):
kind of know how this is going to end, but
it hasn't yet, Like has this been a shock to
you that Wisconsin is like the most solid ground program
in the country. You could, you know, write them in
for eight nine wins a year minimum is like you know,
grasping at Australia. They lose a cornerback to Miami and
there's this big like to do back and forth and
Xavier Lucas like are they just not built for these times?

Speaker 3 (40:31):
I think a couple of things happened, like remember they
were there used to be east and West in the
Big ten pre the four you know for old pac
twelve schools come in, so you were you were better
positions scheduling wise. I'm not saying that were beating nobody's
but like they were as resourced as anybody on that
side of it.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
It was like them and Iowa. You know, Nebraska was
spinning its wheels.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
You had Purdue Illinois went through, you know, like Beeluma's
god in Illinois to be good. I mean, he's actually
kind of done in some degree what it used to be,
you know, and.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
You know, Northwestern, just.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Like in Minnesota, it's like they're all kind of in
the same boatly, and I think in the first year
it sounded like Wisconsin had real, like some not great
staff chemistry on the offensive side of the ball.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Then you mentioned they get Tyler van Dyke.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Tyler Van Dyke got hurt in the game we were
at early in the season against Alabama, a game I
don't think they were gonna win anyway, because they're just
not They're just not as talented, and it just felt
like they were struggling to find their identity. They had
a stretch in mid season where they won three in
a row or four in a row, and they you're
talking to somebody on the staff there, they were like,

(41:50):
you know, Luke's very confident and it started to reflect
his temperament. Let's just kind of let's just be good
at what we're good at. And and I think, you know,
it felt like they were a low ceiling team, right
and I think they can still be like an eight
win team, but that's not like where they were before.

(42:11):
It was like they were winning ten. They were winning
double digits very consistently. And I don't I'm not saying
they can't get back to that because that guy got
Cincinnati to a playoff, Like he has a formula, he
knows what it takes. Obviously, you know, you know, overturned
his offensive staff. I don't know, like I thought this

(42:32):
would have gone better than it has, but I can
see why they are struggling. You know, I can see
why right now they're just in the pack and Iowa
feels like they're a step ahead of them. You know,
you have Minnesota, Like you know, I know PJ. Fleck,
there's some people who don't like him. He's a good coach. Like, yes,

(42:54):
I think we'll see what happens with like you know,
some of those mid tier schools like a Chigan State.
Obviously they weren't a West team, but like you know,
Jonathan Smith. He did a really good job at a
place it's even tougher to win. I think we'll see
what happens with Matt Ruhle. They I was expecting them.
They took certainly a step forward in his second year.

(43:14):
I thought they would have taken a bigger step forward.
But they've They've been aggressive in the portal and they've
really taken some big swings. And you know, I wouldn't
write them off, you know, like if you asked me
and you didn't, But like if I ask you this,
like two years from now, who do you think is
better Nebraska Wisconsin?

Speaker 2 (43:34):
My gut is going to be Nebraska, right.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
That makes sense. They seem to even with the offensive
struggles this year, the momentum is there, the defense is there,
The hiring has been there. Like the Tony White hires
seem to have been very good, even though he has
now moved on to Florida State. I think maybe the
higher of the last couple of years, I mean, basically
has been Kurt Signetti in Indiana with what he did immediately,
but even closer to you, and I'm more familiar with

(43:58):
him as well, Kenny Dillon him at Arizona State has
surpassed my expectations given where that program was, given how
much he needed to hit the portal, given you know,
changing conferences, just the number of challenges. He gave an
interview where he like had to thank he didn't have to,
he felt compelled to thank an individual booster because if
it weren't for him, Arizona State wouldn't exist. Essentially, what

(44:21):
have you heard behind the scenes about the job he's done,
and do you expect is there a ceiling for Arizona
State or do you expect this program to keep climbing.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
I don't think there is a ceiling.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Like you know, you talk to enough old people and
they're like, yeah, that was always a sleeping giant, right.
There's a lot of talent. It's not Southern California, but
there's still a lot of talent around there. And I
think Kenny Dillingham obviously.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Grew up there. You know, he was a student there.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
He's been around good programs, he's smart, he has a
ton of energy.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Our old colleague Ari Wasserman, who will say some outlandish
stuff from time to time. Yeah, Ari, you know, beating
his chest about they got to hire Kenny Dillingham and
wrote a.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Column about it. I'm not saying ri he was the
only one who said they should have done that.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Like just like the first year when they were held
together with glue and Scattaboo was doing everything, like everything
playing quarterback, he was punting whatever. They beat UCLA because
Kenny went in and we're going to run basically swinging gate. Yeah,

(45:35):
all this funky stuff that Dan Casey would spend hours
probably like laughing about. Yeah, and it showed his ingenuity
and creativity and like his effort, you know, kind of
quality and it's good and like, so they're in the
what you said, asked me was there.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
They're in the Big twelve and there is no powerhouse there.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
There's no Ohio State there, there's no you know, Alabama there,
there's it's just different and it's the most up for
grabs conference. You're in an area where you should be
able to get a lot of players. We'll see if
they like really ramp up facilities and everything, because remember
it was a freaking mess when herm was there.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
It was like.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
Just total chaos of the stuff was going on. And
they had still sounds of good players. Jon had a
ton of players yeah, they've always had some players around there.
It was just a you know, incredible amount of dysfunction
and can't get out of your own way. And now
they have something they can build off of. And then
the league there where like if you ask me, and

(46:38):
there's other really good coaches. I mean, Case State's always
going to be a problem as long as climbing there
is there. And I think, you know, Matt Campbell's really
good coach at Iowa State and it was around BYU
and Klane kind of has that thing going. And we'll
see what happens with Colorado in terms of staying power
and you know TCUs resources and whatnot. And we know
Texas Tech spending a ton of money, but like there

(46:59):
is nothing in that league that would be like, oh,
like ASU is gonna have our time competing with that
because like nobody has history like that, so.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Got a ton of momentum. I mean, shoot, they should
have probably beat Texas.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
In that yeah, right, So, I mean I know Scataboo's gone,
but like Skataboo, I feel like left behind, like a
legacy and that like I always felt like like towards
the end of the year they that program was taking
on his personality, but you're seeing them go play all out,
running their face into walls.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
I mean, just like that.

Speaker 3 (47:36):
I think that can stay the quarterbacks really talented. I
think he's a guy who was like, if you told
me two years from now that he's a top ten pick,
I'd be like, Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
You know, So in today's modern era, which direction are
you going in terms of hiring because Kenny Dillingham, you know,
has had been a coordinator at major place as an
assistant at major places in Auburn and Florida State and Oregon,
and it's seems like the coaches, especially the younger coaches
who are succeeding, have that major program experience as assistants

(48:07):
and are not necessarily coming over from a G five
job or a power job to a power job with
I mean you mentioned two of those guys, and Brian
Kelly and Lincoln Riley struggling to find footing going from
major job to major job. Is there a specific direction
you would go in that is more advantaged in this,
you know, in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
I would lean towards the guy who is the established
lower divisions coach who's kept on winning. Now that's actually
Brian Kelly too, That's true. He was at Grand Valley
State and he was at Central Michigan and he's definitely
a CEO.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Lance Leipold is exactly that.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Certainly, Klen de Borr is that I would be more
inclined to bet on that if I was in that position.
You know, I don't know how it's going to Like,
it hasn't always work, Like Paul Wolfe was the guy
before Leech at Washington successful.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
It did not work there, but.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Kurt Signetti right in smaller schools, I.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Won Yeacnetti right, absolutely, Signetti.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
I mean there's there's so many examples of guys like that,
whereas the ones which is like it's tough and I
think is the hot coordinator guy, Like there really wasn't
that guy in this cycle, No clost The thing I
could think of was Shannon Dawson, the OC at Miami.
Like there was jobs that I was like, oh, I
could see Shannon play for it. You know, he went

(49:29):
to college in North Carolina. There was a job at
app State that I know he was. They were interested
in him. I don't think he was getting North Carolina,
but like I could you know like he was. He's
a really good offensive coach. He's got presence to him,
and I could see but beyond that, if you looked
at like just the in the final four coordinators, Chip

(49:49):
Kelly's sixty or sixty one, Al Golden's mid fifties, Jim
Knowles is about sixty, and who's the other one I'm
thinking of, Oh, Mike denbro is around sixty. So and
those guys are all guys who had outstanding years. So
it's not like there was a lot of you know,

(50:10):
he had Will Stein at.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Your alma mater.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
I think will has done some really good stuff. There's
certainly some young coaches who are like, yeah, keep an
eye on that guy. It wasn't like the cycle of
a like five years ago, or oh, here comes Joe
Brady as the passing coordinator at LSU on the national title,
or here comes.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Like some of those guys got jobs and I think
that's changed things a little.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Or some of the coaches are so young, like I
could see Danton Lynn as a head coach somewhere.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Danton's still really young. But there's you know, like Kenny Dillingham,
super young.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
He got a job where they were desperate and it's
a great fit and he's crushing it, so could get
on the Arizona State people for giving him a shot.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Final question. You do a series I don't know if
it has a name, but it's really good where you
talk to a lot of coaches ahead of big games,
either during the regular season or in the postseason. I'm
just curious to know what that process is. Are you
just spamming everybody you know who's played them? Have people
solved riddles in the comments? I'm like, Oh, that's that?
That quote? Is this guy for sure? I mean I

(51:13):
tried to do that when I read it, and I'm
almost probably almost always wrong. How much is unprintable? So
here's what I want. I want to behind the scenes
on your behind the scenes series.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Okay, so the best one I did of those this year?

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Tell people what it is more more, you know, clearly
than I just did.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah, the best The best one of those for me
was actually the one on Notre Dame going into the
into the national title game. Okay, Like I had two
strong groups of coaches who played both teams, Indiana guys,
Penn State guys. But then thereose other guys who I
had who had played played Notre Dame as well. They
were really candidate the I wasn't even sure I was

(51:54):
going to do one of those. And then I have
a coach who I talked to all the time who's
a great quote and he's very ended about stuff. And
I didn't go in saying, hey, I'm doing this story.
I just asked him, like, tell me about them. And
because I know I have a podcast or you know
two at the time, you know, because I was I
still do the Bare Beets one and see LKA and

(52:15):
you know there's other stuff that. So I wasn't planning
to do a story until I talked to this guy
for an hour and five minutes, and then I got
some amazing stuff that was just kind of like, Okay,
this is great and sight a lot of it I
honestly couldn't use because it was too specific. Like that's
where you run into like the behind the scenes of
it is is like, oh, this is a dead giveaway

(52:37):
who this is right because it's so specific. There's an
example like this might not have been for this story.
But like I remember, I asked somebody, why did man
so and so ate you guys up? This was like
the third receiver on their team, and I was like,
how good is he? And he was like thought about it.

(52:57):
He's like oh wait, wait, wait wait, and then he
was like what and was we had a third string
cornerback in that game?

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Right?

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Like you know, it was like that probably doesn't happen
even if our backups in you know. So it's like, yeah,
the guy had like four catches for one hundred and
thirteen yards, but like seventy of them came on a
complete bust where the kid, you know, the kids should
be playing probably FCS football, right, So it's like, okay,
that's where the stats are kind of like when you
hear what happened, you kind of take it like better context, right,

(53:27):
And so those things are great for me because I
just feel like I learned so much and you know,
it's just really interesting to go through it. Like we
did something during the national title game where I had
a coach who's a head coach, and I said, we
talked about this at a time, and I was like,
do you want to be on the record off the record.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
He was like, oh, let's be off the record. It's okay.

Speaker 3 (53:49):
So during the game, like I was like, give me
your observations and some of the stuff he had was great.
You know, it was just like, you know, it's just
very interesting to get because they see the game way
differently than you know, I don't care who it is who,
Like there's some really you know, good people to follow,
whether it's on whatever social media who either do all

(54:10):
twenty two stuff or whatever.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
But they didn't play against the team, they didn't coach
against the team.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
They don't you know, they may know some stuff because
they heard somebody, you know, give a clinic talk, but
then when you get some of this other perspective on things,
I mean, I'll share this part.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Like I asked.

Speaker 3 (54:26):
If I asked Chip Kelly about the orbit return play
that Jeremiah Smith scores on in the National.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Title game at Alabama had run?

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah, correct, And I was like, were you guys saving that?

Speaker 3 (54:37):
And he was like, well, you know, and then you
talk about it, he's like, well, we didn't want to
run it against you know, against sark in Texas because
the systems are fairly similar, and so you figure like, oh,
they're gonna they're going to be able to pick up
on that easier, you know, And it's just kind of
interesting to get the actual background of why somebody did something.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
So so I go into all this stuff. Dan, I
was like, I want to learn stuff like and.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
The only tricky part is when the fingerprints are so
easy to see, where I'm like, ah, I gotta beat Yeah,
like Stu once asked me.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
He was like, oh, that was so and so right,
and I was like, no. The reason why and the
reason why I.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
Thought that was because it like it was like a
former like I think I referenced that this was not
for like in the last couple of months, but it
was like it's a former PAC twelve head coach, and
so he's like, oh, that has to be Chip Kelly
or that has to be whatever. Like almost everybody there
was like eleven guys who are former Pack twelve head

(55:40):
coaches now right, Like he was like Lincoln Riley is
a former PAC twelve head coach. You go through the list,
like Kenny Dellayham is a former PAC twelve head coach.
Dan Lanning is So I was like, it's just the
way you identify somebody in a story. Or I'd be like, yeah,
they saw they played him in the second half of
the seat. You know, you're just like you're trying to

(56:01):
be careful on not you know, and sometimes sometimes the
readers to get it right, you know, for sure, but
like but more times than not, they're just assuming, oh,
it's this guy, and I'm like a man, that's not
who it is?

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Or what is?

Speaker 3 (56:16):
What?

Speaker 1 (56:16):
What else is unprintable? Is there like an unbelievable amount
of confidence that you're just like a I don't know
if that's I guess that's probably the most printable, right
if a coach saying like they're going to murder them,
it would shock me if they don't murder them. Is
there anything that's unprintable besides you know, being too obvious
in terms of decoding.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
The part that I get, I get cautious of on
and this is a this is like a good discussion
point is there's still college players. Yes, they are getting paid,
some of them are getting paid seven figures, but just
how critical, right you let somebody be Yeah, and yours
is a good example here, Like he's like somebody was

(56:57):
not shy about letting it float out that he is
making seven figures at a really early age as a
you know, as a college player. But he's still a
college player, and he's still a teenager at the time,
and so the comments are like of him, and I think,
what's what's delicate is this guy was, as you know,
like the highest ranked quarterback recruit in the history of

(57:20):
like two four, seven and Rivals and that whole you
know group.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Right, Well, he had a really good career.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Now, if you told me, like to be the highest
five star ever, you know, like who does that, Like
what kind of career do you have to have? Right?
You Like, you would expect him to be a top
ten pick at least, right, and that very rarely happens,
Like like Joe Burrow was like a low four high
three star.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
I'm a two Sisters two services and he you know,
obviously exceeded. But it's usually like you know, it's tricky
on that. So it's like people are are like.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Blunt about it, and coaches, especially when it comes to quarterbacks,
will tell you will be very critical and you want
to like I remembered not this past year, but in
twenty twenty three going into the Alabama Michigan game, like
I had a lot of really good stuff and as
you remember, I think like a lot of people thought
Alabama was going to win that game. And if you

(58:20):
read my story a lot of the coaches, and I
remember one coach in particular was like it was almost
like we were arguing.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
We weren't.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
But I was like, like, this guy was flat wrong
on how good Michigan was and he didn't give them
that much credit. And the Michigan fans were like, thought,
I was like urban Meyer for putting that out. I'd
written more about Michigan. I predicted Michigan to win the
national title in the preseason and in the spring.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
You know about it.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
But like that was at least one of the people
I talked to, And it wasn't selective, like, oh, let
me find the people who think Alabama is going to
maul Michigan. But like that there's something that that definitely
goes into that you know where you're sitting there, going okay,
how does this read like in terms of that, You know,

(59:13):
I wasn't shocked that Michigan would beat Alabama. It was
like and it didn't feel like it was that fluky.
But at the same time, I think a lot of
people looked at them. They had beaten Georgia and you know,
like Michigan stubbed their toe the year before against TCU,
they didn't look very good against Georgia two years earlier.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
Right, So you know, Michigan was one of those schools
where it's like they would win.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
And they certainly have talent, especially on defense, and JJ
McCarthy's more talented than I think a lot of college
media wanted to give them credit for at the time.
But you you know, some of the things they're really
good at, they they get glossed over. Really really physical,
really good offensive line. Those are hard things to like
kind of you know, it's different if you have justin
Jefferson or see your Stroud or like really shiny objects.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Right, No, that's and look and coach gives you a
quote of Jalen Milroe is an Edgresher playing quarterback. You're
just like, thank you very much. We have a pull quote,
we have a headline. Thank you so much for.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Your Oh, I got like one of the guys.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
This is like I have some great stuff in my
head about my coaches, about like a couple of guys
and it's like it's rough, but it's like you can
tell it's coaches who really would love to have a
couple of these guys on their team. It's like a
coach who used to have used to used to work
for one of these schools and knows what these guys are.

(01:00:40):
Some of these guys are like and I was like, Okay,
these are guys I can talk about in context, but
I can I can never use some.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Of this stuff because it's right right, it's identifiable.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Yeah, it was almost it's more fun almost in reading
those pieces where there's a coach who's just so effusive
that they're just like, oh, number fifty two is something else,
like that kind of guy never around. That's the cool
stuff when because you just assume coaches are going to
be jaded and be like, yeah, he's fine, or that's
a guy like yes, they're they're better there. But when

(01:01:10):
a coach is like, yeah, number eighty one is a
problem that nobody's going to be able to solve. I
kind of like that kind of honesty to it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
Yeah, I mean there's definitely some of those, some of
those where it's like like JJ Smith was the guy that,
like I would tell Stu all season because we had
won Ohio State like seven times. If you have to
see him in person, you don't realize how big he is, right,
Like Ulston it's two fifteen. Chip was like, yeah, he's
like two twenty eight. You know, he's like a huge
man who can really run, you know, who's really skilled

(01:01:40):
and everything else. And it's like I think some of
those things is like, you know, I have the advantage
of being at the games and seeing people up close.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
You can kind of see things, and he gives.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
You just a different perspective on Like my kid is
really into Madden and everything, and we're talking about pen
A school and I was like, let me show you
something because like we did a gain, you'd probably remember this.
This is my when I was doing sideline where it
was one of the rare it might be the only
time I've ever interviewed all offensive lineman after the game.
So Chris the head coach, I'm like, yeah, this is

(01:02:11):
this is me. This is another guy who's like two
hundred and sixty pounds who's the head coach, And this
is this like huge land mass of an individual. Right
just to see him move like that, it's not normal,
you know, it's just not you know, it's like Vita Vea.
Vitaveo was like the like the only guy almost got
me to curse on camera just because I was like

(01:02:35):
this is this is ridiculous, how big and ferocious this
guy is. You know, he's just throwing three indred pound
people around like they're like they're ottomans.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
I remember so our friend Jeff Schwartz got a text
from Mario Crystabal about pane Seoul in fall camp and
it was cut ups of Panae in one on ones
or Oklahoma drill or something like that, and the quote
this is true freshman Pine Sool was Mario Crystabal was
like day one left tackle, day one draft pick, before

(01:03:07):
he had played a game. He was like, this is
a complete unicorn. You don't see this ever, and Panae
Sool is like is on a clear path, like he's
already ready to be an All American left tackle. He
only played two years in college. But I just remember
seeing that and hearing that and saw some of the cutups,
was like, oh, okay, this is different.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
We have a situation people didn't say they want about
about Mario as a coach.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
Mario has a really good eye for talent, and he
has especially good eye for alignment. You know, I think
of so many examples of guys that, you know, I
want to say, maybe Deron Payne who was at Alabama
early as a young player, maybe when he was even
a recruit before.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
He left, but there was guys where he was he
could see it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
And look, I mean he he saw more like ridiculous
talent at Miami as a player than probably anybody.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
So I think that probably shaped it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
And then he was at Alama, but he definitely knows,
you know, knows what it knows what it looks like at.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
That at that level. And so I just remember that
particular guy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
And then also it's like, Okay, now Thibodeau has to
go up against him every day and practice.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
What does that look like? Right? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
No, all makes sense. Bruce Feldman taking up way too
much of your time Fox Sports. The athletic bear bets
the audible anywhere where there's college football, Bruce is somewhere.
So Bruce, thank you very much for your time. And
I owe you a lot of crutons. I guess next
time you're are you in Chicago at all in the
next year.

Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
So hopefully, I mean honestly, like, I am one who
loves deep dish pizza and you're the only I'm not
shitting you know, the only one who's like competitive with that, because.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Oh I am, and I actually, like, I know a
mal natty at this point, so I don't know what
that actually means. But uh, I'm not intimidated, is what
I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
I'm ready to you shouldn't be.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Shouldn't be like I just can't get over you should
basically put up a shingle and open up.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Don't laugh. I think you would probably.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
Oh no, I appreciate it. I'll say this. Anybody who
I am friends with in college football, if you're listening
to this, come by. I will make you pizza. I
don't want to deal with the public at all. I
don't know if you've ever worked in a restaurant. I have.
It's the public is terrible to work with with food.
But I like cooking for friends and family, and so
you get included in that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
I'm grateful.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
All right, thank you so much for your time, and
hopefully we'll talk soon. You got it.