September 17, 2024 • 10 mins
Stephen A. Smith is a New York Times Bestselling Author, Executive Producer, host of ESPN's First Take, and co-host of NBA Countdown.
Naismith Basketball Hall of Famer Nancy Lieberman discusses the new golden era of the WNBA, including players A’ja Wilson, Angel Reese, and Caitlin Clark, and comments made by fellow Hall of Famer Sheryl Swoopes.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
And I just wanted to throw this out there just
as a reference point, just to put things in perspective
about what Caitlan Clark brings to the table. The average
attendance in the thirty three games Caitlin Clark and the
Indiana Fever have played in this season is fifteen thousand,
seven hundred and forty six, which leads the WNBA. The
average attendance of WNBA games not involving Caitlan Clark is
(00:36):
on average eight thousand, four hundred and ninety and eighty
five percent drop from games that Caitlan Clark is not
participating in. Obviously, the New York Liberty average over eleven thousand,
the Los Angeles Sparks average over ten thousand, but the
Indiana Fever at fifteen thousand, seven hundred and forty six.
Yet I'm on the air the other day and I'm
(00:58):
talking about the Indiana Fever and I had to get
on you know somebody we both have incredible respect for
in Cheryl Swoops, your champion on every level, one of
the greatest players in WNBA history. Because I said, how
do you mention the Indiana Fever and all of these
other players and you don't mention Caitlyn Clark, and then
(01:18):
all of a sudden she gets on me and calls
me a coward and all of this other stuff. I
don't know what you can say about Cheryl Swoops, but
if there's anything that you could say, what would you
want to say in terms of the narrative that has
been put out there as it pertains to her coverage
and her feelings about Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
You know, I've known Cheryl since she was in college.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I helped her shoe deal with Nike in nineteen ninety three,
took her to her first sb's. I've known Cheryl, I've
coached her, have a lot of respect for her. I
called her when Caitlyn was still playing at Iowa and
she had just in Marevich's record, and it was all
over the place. As you and I have discussed that,
(02:05):
you know, there was this quote by Cheryl that said,
you know, Caitlin was, you know, twenty five years old.
She was, however, twenty four years old. She was a
fifty year senior. She was taking forty shots a game.
Her records were illegitimate. And I got off the treadmill
and I called her as a friend and I said
you know, you can say whatever you want, you can
(02:27):
have your own opinion about anybody, but you do have
to get the statistics right.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I mean, facts matter.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And if you just get ahead of this and just say, hey,
I'm made a mistake on my numbers, then this thing
is over and everybody respects you for your opinion. And
you know, you might like Boston, I might like the Yankees.
You know it's okay to have difference of opinions. Well,
she got a set with me on the phone and
(02:53):
I was like, Cheryl, you know, I'm not doing anything
to hurt you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I'm just sharing.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
We're talking, and so our relationship pretty much is not
happening at this point. I tried to talk to her
at the final four sheet and want to talk to me,
My life's going to be good or great with or
without Cheryl Swoops in my life.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I'd rather have her in it. But let me tell
you the difference.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
The difference is when the Kennedy Carter thing happened and
I'm doing Michelle Beadle's podcast with Lou Williams and Channel
and Parsons, and Michelle says to me, Nancy, what would
you tell Caitlyn Clark in that situation, and I said
to Michelle, look, I'm not here to speak for Kate
and Clark. You know Kitlyn Clark, I'm not going to
(03:38):
tell you that. Then she said, what would you do
if somebody kind of blindsided you like that? And you
know me, I'm straight from New York, straight from Broker Park.
I said, I would have gotten up. I would have
walked up to whoever did that to me. I would
have punched him in the face, and you know the
explicittive that I used, and I would have said, you know, off,
(04:01):
that is who I am. That is the concentric circle
of who I am, and that's my era. And so
to her point, Teresa Weatherspoon called me my dear friend
who I love, respect and admire. She said, Nancy, I
was disappointed what you said. And we had a conversation
(04:22):
and I said, Spoon, I didn't say she should paunch
Kennedy Carter in her face. I said, this is what
I would do if I were blindsided. And I've known
Kennedy since she was in high school here in Dallas.
I think she's a hell of a player and should
have been on the All Star team. Yes, but my
comment about hitting her wasn't about her, But we had
(04:46):
this conversation which we apparently cannot have with me and
Cheryl swoops.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And I still think she was incorrect about what she did.
And you know, we all have to.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Be professional, right, You covered people, right, You and Durant
have kind of gone at it in and out for
a little bit, but you still do highlights and talk
about him and share the greatness of him.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
You don't have to agree with everything with him, but
just do your job. Do your job. You get paid
to do a job as a broadcaster. Do your job.
Nobody says you have to be in love with anybody else.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
But if you're going to do an Indiana Wings game,
you're going to have to talk about Caitlyn Clark and
her great teammates and what they're doing. And they have
you know, uh Leah Boston, they have you know, Kelsey Mitchell,
who's just bananas, I mean unstoppable by the way.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, and Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
So why would you not build around it? You know,
when I was playing, you would have looked like an idiot.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
If you didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
When you talked about old Dominion, you know, two time
national champions and two time player of the year and
you didn't talk about me.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And that's the issue, Nancy, because listen, here's the thing.
What incriminates in my opinion, it's just my opinion, but
what incriminates somebody like cheryl' Swoops even more, who, by
the way, was supposed to be calling the game with
y'all yesterday and she did not call the game. And
no doubts it had something to do with the fact
that when you know how Caitlyn Clark had performed earlier
in the week, she didn't want to talk about it
at all. So we recognize that. And we know in
(06:20):
television the way that I do. I know what producers do.
I know what bosses do when you see you know
your personal feelings whatever they may be infiltrating the proceedings
and compromising your position as a professional. But I think
in the case of Cheryl Swoops, and I'm not going
to belabor this point, but it's important to be made.
Cheryl Swoops is a winner, She was great, and she's
a phenomenal basketball mind. So what she's not realizing is
(06:44):
that when she doesn't state the obvious, it's automatically going
to be assumed that it's something personal because we know,
you know the basketball game, the game of basketball too
well to ignore the kind of things that she's ignoring.
When it comes to Caitlyn Clark, Am I wrong in
saying that?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Now, You're You're not wrong in saying that.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
And I would like to thank the Wings and Ballets
for putting me on the game and asking me if
I would do it.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I will do anything for women's basketball. I'm just a
servant leader here.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
At one point in my career, I wanted to be
the greatest of all time, and now I just want
to be a great you know, person that supports this
generation of greatness. So to to your point, you know,
I think she created this firestorm. She could put it out,
and you know, it's like I always tell people at
(07:37):
this stage, your ego's not your im ego. Okay, your
ego's not your friend. We have to humble ourselves and
do our job and just recognize that. You know, Caitlin
might not be her cup of tea, but she's not
doing anything to.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Hurt Cheryl Swoops.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
She admires Cheryl Swoops and the Maya Moors and the
Sue Birds and the legends that came before her and
I would dare say, you can't find a sound bite
a sound bite this season of Caitlin Clark saying anything
derogatory about anybody.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
She says, I don't care that she chatters on the court.
He doesn't. Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Great ones, Chattered Bird, Magic, all them. It's okay, that's
a competitor. But you know, I mean, for this woman,
you know, to be maligned, you shouldn't. You don't have
to buy the number twenty two jersey if you don't
want it, but what you should do is applaud her
for helping grow this sport that we have busted or
(08:43):
asked for for the last fifty years. I mean, my
Olympic team in seventy six just got inducted last August.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Some of my teammates thought.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
They were going to die and never get recognized for
being the first Olympic women's team. Julie Simpson who was
a co captain with Pat Summit on that team. The
people are starting to know who Julien. You know, people
knew who Pat some it was, or Nancy Liebman or
Anne Myers, but they didn't know who Lucy was until
Lucy died and Tris Roberts and and you know, Sue
(09:16):
roy Switch, and we had so many great players on
that team.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
We just want to be recognized.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And when the young players of today recognize, you know,
the pioneers of the game, it's a thank you, and
the pioneers and today's athlete should be saying to Angel
Reese and to you know, Asia and to you know,
you know, Jackie Young and all these great players, thank you,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Hey, thank you for winning that gold medal.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Thank you for busting your behind on behalf of America.
And we stand and support you. But if you have
a legend who's coming at a young player on the rise,
it just it's it's not a good look. And and
Caitlin didn't start this, and I know Caitlyn, she won't
finish it.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
She'll just play ball. That's who she is.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
M
And I just wanted to throw this out there just
as a reference point, just to put things in perspective
about what Caitlan Clark brings to the table. The average
attendance in the thirty three games Caitlin Clark and the
Indiana Fever have played in this season is fifteen thousand,
seven hundred and forty six, which leads the WNBA. The
average attendance of WNBA games not involving Caitlan Clark is
(00:36):
on average eight thousand, four hundred and ninety and eighty
five percent drop from games that Caitlan Clark is not
participating in. Obviously, the New York Liberty average over eleven thousand,
the Los Angeles Sparks average over ten thousand, but the
Indiana Fever at fifteen thousand, seven hundred and forty six.
Yet I'm on the air the other day and I'm
(00:58):
talking about the Indiana Fever and I had to get
on you know somebody we both have incredible respect for
in Cheryl Swoops, your champion on every level, one of
the greatest players in WNBA history. Because I said, how
do you mention the Indiana Fever and all of these
other players and you don't mention Caitlyn Clark, and then
(01:18):
all of a sudden she gets on me and calls
me a coward and all of this other stuff. I
don't know what you can say about Cheryl Swoops, but
if there's anything that you could say, what would you
want to say in terms of the narrative that has
been put out there as it pertains to her coverage
and her feelings about Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
You know, I've known Cheryl since she was in college.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I helped her shoe deal with Nike in nineteen ninety three,
took her to her first sb's. I've known Cheryl, I've
coached her, have a lot of respect for her. I
called her when Caitlyn was still playing at Iowa and
she had just in Marevich's record, and it was all
over the place. As you and I have discussed that,
(02:05):
you know, there was this quote by Cheryl that said,
you know, Caitlin was, you know, twenty five years old.
She was, however, twenty four years old. She was a
fifty year senior. She was taking forty shots a game.
Her records were illegitimate. And I got off the treadmill
and I called her as a friend and I said
you know, you can say whatever you want, you can
(02:27):
have your own opinion about anybody, but you do have
to get the statistics right.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I mean, facts matter.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And if you just get ahead of this and just say, hey,
I'm made a mistake on my numbers, then this thing
is over and everybody respects you for your opinion. And
you know, you might like Boston, I might like the Yankees.
You know it's okay to have difference of opinions. Well,
she got a set with me on the phone and
(02:53):
I was like, Cheryl, you know, I'm not doing anything
to hurt you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I'm just sharing.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
We're talking, and so our relationship pretty much is not
happening at this point. I tried to talk to her
at the final four sheet and want to talk to me,
My life's going to be good or great with or
without Cheryl Swoops in my life.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I'd rather have her in it. But let me tell
you the difference.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
The difference is when the Kennedy Carter thing happened and
I'm doing Michelle Beadle's podcast with Lou Williams and Channel
and Parsons, and Michelle says to me, Nancy, what would
you tell Caitlyn Clark in that situation, and I said
to Michelle, look, I'm not here to speak for Kate
and Clark. You know Kitlyn Clark, I'm not going to
(03:38):
tell you that. Then she said, what would you do
if somebody kind of blindsided you like that? And you
know me, I'm straight from New York, straight from Broker Park.
I said, I would have gotten up. I would have
walked up to whoever did that to me. I would
have punched him in the face, and you know the
explicittive that I used, and I would have said, you know, off,
(04:01):
that is who I am. That is the concentric circle
of who I am, and that's my era. And so
to her point, Teresa Weatherspoon called me my dear friend
who I love, respect and admire. She said, Nancy, I
was disappointed what you said. And we had a conversation
(04:22):
and I said, Spoon, I didn't say she should paunch
Kennedy Carter in her face. I said, this is what
I would do if I were blindsided. And I've known
Kennedy since she was in high school here in Dallas.
I think she's a hell of a player and should
have been on the All Star team. Yes, but my
comment about hitting her wasn't about her, But we had
(04:46):
this conversation which we apparently cannot have with me and
Cheryl swoops.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And I still think she was incorrect about what she did.
And you know, we all have to.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Be professional, right, You covered people, right, You and Durant
have kind of gone at it in and out for
a little bit, but you still do highlights and talk
about him and share the greatness of him.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
You don't have to agree with everything with him, but
just do your job. Do your job. You get paid
to do a job as a broadcaster. Do your job.
Nobody says you have to be in love with anybody else.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
But if you're going to do an Indiana Wings game,
you're going to have to talk about Caitlyn Clark and
her great teammates and what they're doing. And they have
you know, uh Leah Boston, they have you know, Kelsey Mitchell,
who's just bananas, I mean unstoppable by the way.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, and Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
So why would you not build around it? You know,
when I was playing, you would have looked like an idiot.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
If you didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
When you talked about old Dominion, you know, two time
national champions and two time player of the year and
you didn't talk about me.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And that's the issue, Nancy, because listen, here's the thing.
What incriminates in my opinion, it's just my opinion, but
what incriminates somebody like cheryl' Swoops even more, who, by
the way, was supposed to be calling the game with
y'all yesterday and she did not call the game. And
no doubts it had something to do with the fact
that when you know how Caitlyn Clark had performed earlier
in the week, she didn't want to talk about it
at all. So we recognize that. And we know in
(06:20):
television the way that I do. I know what producers do.
I know what bosses do when you see you know
your personal feelings whatever they may be infiltrating the proceedings
and compromising your position as a professional. But I think
in the case of Cheryl Swoops, and I'm not going
to belabor this point, but it's important to be made.
Cheryl Swoops is a winner, She was great, and she's
a phenomenal basketball mind. So what she's not realizing is
(06:44):
that when she doesn't state the obvious, it's automatically going
to be assumed that it's something personal because we know,
you know the basketball game, the game of basketball too
well to ignore the kind of things that she's ignoring.
When it comes to Caitlyn Clark, Am I wrong in
saying that?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Now, You're You're not wrong in saying that.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
And I would like to thank the Wings and Ballets
for putting me on the game and asking me if
I would do it.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I will do anything for women's basketball. I'm just a
servant leader here.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
At one point in my career, I wanted to be
the greatest of all time, and now I just want
to be a great you know, person that supports this
generation of greatness. So to to your point, you know,
I think she created this firestorm. She could put it out,
and you know, it's like I always tell people at
(07:37):
this stage, your ego's not your im ego. Okay, your
ego's not your friend. We have to humble ourselves and
do our job and just recognize that. You know, Caitlin
might not be her cup of tea, but she's not
doing anything to.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Hurt Cheryl Swoops.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
She admires Cheryl Swoops and the Maya Moors and the
Sue Birds and the legends that came before her and
I would dare say, you can't find a sound bite
a sound bite this season of Caitlin Clark saying anything
derogatory about anybody.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
She says, I don't care that she chatters on the court.
He doesn't. Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Great ones, Chattered Bird, Magic, all them. It's okay, that's
a competitor. But you know, I mean, for this woman,
you know, to be maligned, you shouldn't. You don't have
to buy the number twenty two jersey if you don't
want it, but what you should do is applaud her
for helping grow this sport that we have busted or
(08:43):
asked for for the last fifty years. I mean, my
Olympic team in seventy six just got inducted last August.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Some of my teammates thought.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
They were going to die and never get recognized for
being the first Olympic women's team. Julie Simpson who was
a co captain with Pat Summit on that team. The
people are starting to know who Julien. You know, people
knew who Pat some it was, or Nancy Liebman or
Anne Myers, but they didn't know who Lucy was until
Lucy died and Tris Roberts and and you know, Sue
(09:16):
roy Switch, and we had so many great players on
that team.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
We just want to be recognized.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And when the young players of today recognize, you know,
the pioneers of the game, it's a thank you, and
the pioneers and today's athlete should be saying to Angel
Reese and to you know, Asia and to you know,
you know, Jackie Young and all these great players, thank you,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Hey, thank you for winning that gold medal.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Thank you for busting your behind on behalf of America.
And we stand and support you. But if you have
a legend who's coming at a young player on the rise,
it just it's it's not a good look. And and
Caitlin didn't start this, and I know Caitlyn, she won't
finish it.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
She'll just play ball. That's who she is.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
M
Host
Stephen A. Smith
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