May 24, 2025 • 39 mins
Stephen A. Smith is a New York Times Bestselling Author, Executive Producer, host of ESPN's First Take, and co-host of NBA Countdown.
Support the show: http://www.youtube.com/@stephenasmith
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Staying in the NBA but moving off the court. Michael
Jordan's longtime agent, extraordinary mister David Falk, weighed in on
the goat debate this week. Not surprisingly, Falk back to
his former client, but he took it a step further.
Speaking with The Sports Business Journal, Falk had this to say, quote,
I really really like Lebron, but I think if Jordan
(00:24):
had cherry picked what teams he wanted to be on
and two other superstars, he would have won fifteen championships.
End quote. This prompted a response from none other than
Lebron James agent himself, mister Rich Paul, take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We can't have revisionist history and we all want to
just determine who's the gold and who's the best, and
so on and so forth. But I just thought that
was a little beneath David to say that Michael never
had to leave they you know, Michael's never been the
underdog in any finals, not one time. Michael never had
(01:03):
a twenty four hour three sixty five news cycle, He
never had shows built strictly to criticize him. People made
millions of dollars criticizing Lebron James that was their entire job.
Michael played for Dean Smith, Michael played for Phil Jackson,
and Michael had Jerry Krause. I'm the biggest Michael Jordan
(01:27):
fan ever, love Michael Jordan, and I don't think Michael
Jordan would have used the term cherry picks, So I'm
not up here to just credit Michael Jordan. I think
Michael Jordan transcended our game to a level that we
all benefited from.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
What the hell do you mean, Rich Paul, when you
say Michael never had a twenty four hour, three hundred
and sixty five news cycle, He never had shows built
strictly to criticize them. What shows are built strictly to
criticize Lebron James? See? This is the BS. This, this
(02:00):
is the BS Recover the Sport. It's a twenty four
hours news cycle. There are plenty of positive things that
are said about Lebron James on every show, every show.
This is where the wanting and moaning accusations come from
from him and his camp. What twenty four hour, three
(02:21):
hundred and sixty five news cycle has shows built strictly
to criticize them? So, in other words, the shows that
criticize them never ever ever give him credit. Huh Ever, Look, man,
I ain't got time. I'm not gonna even waste my
time with this. I'm gonna get to my next guest.
(02:41):
I'm gonna get to my next guest right now. I'd
like to welcome to the show none other than mister
David Falk himself. Longtime buddy. How you doing, David?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
How's everything you delighted to be with the student?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You said what you said? You've had an opportunity to
reflect on what you had to say about Lebron James
in comparison to Michael Jordan. The floor is yours. What
would you like to say now?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I'm saying I thennounced that clearly Lebron James is a
great player in any era. You'd be foolish to suggest
on the laws, his longevity is, his stistics are amazing.
I think what makes Michael to go goes way beyond
the court. I think on the court, Michael obviated the
(03:23):
center posision. Prior to Jordan, we needed the Elijah Watson Ewings,
the Koreem's, the Bobonaiers, and the way Michael played he
made it unnecessary to have a great center. Look when
won the champions for Bill Weddington, Dicky Simpkins, Bill cart Right,
and I think that had a huge impact on the game. Secondly,
(03:45):
perhaps even more importantly, I think Michael individually broke down
every barrier that existed for professional basketball players, and in
particular African American professional basketball players, to become national mark
getting brand ambassadors. So the whole generation of Rob's and
Kobe's and Steph Curry's having the run shoes and being
(04:08):
in commercials did not exist before Michael came in the game.
Magic didn't have it, Bird didn't have it, Doctor Jaye
didn't have it, Kareem didn't have it, And I think
that's a preponderant impact. I think third, I believe he's
the first NBA player to become a billionaire. I believe
he's the first NBA player to become a majority owner
(04:29):
of an NBA team. And finally, he had tremendous hit
back on fashion. He changed the look of the way
the players play with the long shorts. He made bald
and beautiful. And so I think beyond comparing statistics, who
had more points, who averaged more, even who had more championships,
(04:50):
I think Michael's impact is extremely broad and deep in
what he did to change the game. I don't think
any other player in history will kind of impact.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
What do you make of people who would look and
I'm gonna I want to get far beyond those two
individuals that we're talking about for the moment, But I
got this one question to ask you, what do you
make of folks and their assertions that the times that
we're living in now, the advent of social media, did
the digital stratus fere uh the microscope that is on
(05:23):
players in today's game like never before. The impression is
given that even the great Michael Jordan, with his and
you know, unparalleled popularity, I compare him to know one,
the only person I've ever compared him to was Michael
Jackson for crying out loud. That's how popular Michael Jordan was.
When you listen to people talk today, they talk about
the climate, the environment, uh, the society that we're living
(05:46):
in today, and they say it's far more invasive than
it has ever been, which makes the road tougher for
a guy like Lebron James compared to what Jordan had
to endure during his complain his playing career. You've been
around a long time, you know this business like the
back of your hand. What do you make of that?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Of those assertions, clearly social media has brought the fans
closer to the players. Everyone can express their opinion. You
don't have to work for a newspaper or a television
station to have an opinion. But I think that's the
natural tendency when you're the best at anything, there's a
human tendency to try to tear people down, and certainly
(06:26):
Michael have that because of his immense popularity. You know,
people criticize them, for example, for not being political enough,
not expressing his desire for certain candidates, and so sure,
I think that the social media has changed the game.
I also think if you want to be objective, the
game has changed itself. I had this discussion about a
(06:47):
month ago with Ron Thorne, who's a very dear friend
of mine who drafted Michael Jordan, and he said to me,
which I didn't know, He said, do you realize today
that the average NBA team takes one thver more shots
than they did in Jordan zero? So when Jordan averaged
thirty eight points a game, if you if you increase
(07:07):
that by a third, that means he would average fifty two. Now,
I think Michael could have averaged and Michael took one
point seven threes per game, that's all they tell. I
think he could have averaged almost anything he wanted if
if that was what was required to win. That's all
he cared about was winning, And I think his record
of six out of six is the greatest. Master of
(07:30):
the NBA never lost the.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Championship well, don't forget. He also never allowed a championship
series to get to a seventh game. He took you
out in six or less every single time. That's the
Michael Jordan that we're talking about here, David, expanding beyond
Michael Jordan and Lebron James when we think about the
age that we're living in. One of the discussions your
(07:53):
comments prompted was player empowerment and the kind of things
that have taken place in today's and in today's sports world.
As as an agent, looking at the state of affairs
that exist not just in the NBA but professional sports
as it pertains the sovereignty involving players, player empowerment, et cetera,
(08:15):
et cetera. What are the kind of thoughts that come
to your mind as to what we're witnessing today, and
whether or not it's good or it's bad for the
world of sports in this day and age.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Great question. So Number one, I believe that players great
players have only their in power. I think the biggest
difference between today's generation of players and if you will,
Jordan's generation, the Magic's generation, is how the players exercise
the power. Now, if you understand that in nineteen eighty two,
(08:48):
that's a long time ago, the NBA ushered in a
solid cap and for the last forty three years, the
players have essentially owned fifty revenues, so their fifty to
fifty partners with the league. The only way players can
make more money is to grow the business of the NBA. Now,
(09:08):
I believe that when players exercise their power poorly and
they make statements that detigrate the game, I think that
they're impeding the ability of themselves to make more money,
which is foolished. So I'll give you a couple of
examples you want to talk about player empowerment. In nineteen
(09:30):
eighty four, in nineteen eighty five, there were two players
in the history of the game that opted out of
the group licensing program. What was named Michael Jordan what
was named Patrick Ewing. They did not allow the league
to use them in group licensing, and I opted about
of both of them. Are you not allowed to do
that today? In nineteen eighty five, Patrick Cownie became the
(09:53):
first player in history to have an early termination option
in his contract. He signed a ten year deal three
times more money than Magic made the year before as
a veteran, and he had the option to opt out
after six years if market conditions change. That is empowerment.
Michael Jordan was the first player to have the love
(10:14):
of the Game clause that did not require him to
that allowed him to practice at North Carolina in the summer,
which came to Bekna's know as the love of the
Game clause. Darnell Valentine in nineteen eighty became the first
player to challenge the league's ability under paragraph thirteen B
to prevent players from doing endorsements or interviews without permission
(10:36):
of the team. That's in every contract now Valentine versus
the Portland Trail players. So I can give you one
hundred examples of player empowerment. Patrick Ewing became the first
rookie in history to be the highest paid player in
the league. He made fifty five percent more money than Koreem,
who was the highest paid veteran of all time. I
(10:58):
believe that that's empower them. Andy Ferry did the same
thing in nineteen ninety and he clearly was not one
of the great players in the history league. So I
believe that players in every sport have always had tremendous power.
But I think that today I don't think they use
it as judiciously as they should. If the goal is
(11:18):
to make more money and grow the business.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, let me ask you this, David, give me an
example if you can. If it's compromising, please don't bother.
But if you can, give me an example of players
that have exercised influence and exercised power, but you don't
believe it's necessarily for their good or for the good
of the game. Could you highlight an example that would
(11:43):
it be good to illustrate your point?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Well's of a seference to what I would say is
is traders? Okay? Now, I personally personally probably made ten
or fifteen major trades. I made the Patrick Ewing trade
to see how I didn't want to make it. I
didn't believe it, but he and the next agreed to
will be best to have a change of scenery. It
was a thirteen player trade. I traded stuff on Marlbury,
(12:08):
New Jersey and the thirteen player trade with Sam Cassell.
I did that behind the scenes. The minute you announced
publicly as a player that you're not going to play
anymore hard as an example, you know, it makes it
so much harder to make the trade for the exact
reason that Rich Paul indicated. It's hard for Lebron because
you're shining the spotlight on the player, and the other
(12:32):
teams around the league know that the player is demanded
a trade, he doesn't want to be there. It's going
to be a problem, and so they're not going to
offer fair value and so the very goal the player
has of moving he frustrated. It makes more difficult by,
you know, by publicly announcing it. Now. The opposite of that,
interestingly to me, and I'm a big Nico Harrison fan,
(12:56):
is the fact that Dallas only talked to one team
to trade Luca. You know, Lucas were on the top
five players in the league and it wasn't competitive bidding.
I know they had their reasons for it. I don't
understand all the dynamics, so I'm not here to criticize it,
but it surprised me that if you if you're going
to sell one of the most valuable assets in the league,
(13:18):
that you wouldn't want to have the highest level of
competitive bidding. But the trade is the easiest example I
could give you, Steven, Well, now I'll give you an
example on the agent side. Okay. I believe that every
time an agent comes out publicly and says any of
the following, my player's not getting enough playing time, it's
not getting enough shots, not making enough money, the team
(13:41):
is taking advantage of them. They are advertising that they've
done a really lousy job of being an agent, because
if they were doing a good job, none of those
things would be happening. And if they were happening, then
the answer is to sit down with the owner or
the general manager behind the seeds and try to figure
that a way to prove I'm gonna tell you a
(14:01):
funny story, Okay. In two thousand, I saw my only
high school player in my fifty year career, a guy
named Darius Miles. He was the third pick in the draft,
and yes, I went to a game one night in
LA to see Elton Brand. Our company at that time
represented eight of the players on the Clippers eight. I
(14:23):
didn't represent the ball myself. I only had Elton. I
walk into the locker room to see Elton and he
motions beat it talk to Darius. Apparently on the way
from the locker room from the court into the locker room,
Darius hadn't played a minute. He cursed out the coach,
Alvit Gentry, who I've known since he was the assistant
(14:44):
coach of Very Brown and Kids, squeak guy. So I
go over to Alvit. I say, Alan, what's the problem.
He said, David, I love it. I love Darius, but
he's not working hard enough. Okay. So I told Darius
to come to my hotel them the next day and
I said to him, son, if you want to play,
or do you want to sit on the bench. They said,
of course I want to mister Faulk, That's why I'm unhappy.
(15:07):
I said, well, I don't think you want to play,
and he said, why would you say that? I said,
because if you want to play, you have to show
the coach that you want to play, and the way
you show him is by working harder. He doesn't feel
your work hard, and I promise you that if you
want Carter, he will play more. That was on a Thursday.
(15:28):
The next night they played the Houston Rockets. Darius played
thirty minutes. I had twenty one or nine. I went
to congratulate him after the game. Couldn't find him. Where
do you think he was? He was in the weight room.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Probably after the games in the weight room.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Now, I went up to coach Gentry, who I really like,
and said, album is this complicated? You want him to play?
You want him to work and he wants to play. Now,
most coaches in the NBA today are reluctant to tell
the players that I working hard enough. Now. I'm not
talking about the Papovitches or the pat Rileys. I'm talking
(16:05):
about the younger coats because they're afraid they're going to
lose the relationship with the players. The players are so
much of them, they don't want to tell the coach
that is bothering them that they're not playing. They don't
think that's cool. And I think you need to communicate.
So my job is to talk to a guy like
Alvin and tell them that. And it solved the problem.
(16:26):
And so I think that I think on both sides,
this is a thing that should be done behind the scenes.
Pride with my mom, who's a very highly educated woman,
my life mentor. She taught me when I was very
never hang your derby logging out publicly. And so I
think demanding trades, complaining about how much you're making, those
(16:48):
things are not productive to achieving the results that you
want to achieve. And on top of it, I think
it demeans the game. And I think one of the
great differences between Jordan's era and today is I think
the players had a much greater as a whole, not
saying every single player had a much greater respect for
the game as a as a whole. I'm going to
(17:09):
tell you a great story, and you've never heard when
Michael Jordan, please was recruited by Ted Leonsis, the current
owner of the Washington Wizards, to come to Washington being
the president. The day he was going to get file
approval from a Poland West Uncelton's the GM of the
team and the face of the franchise for many years
from nineteen sixty seven. This is nineteen ninety nine, he
(17:33):
called me up and asked me the set up a
meeting for him with Michael. I didn't attend the meeting,
but apparently at the meeting, West told Michael who's been
leading with Michael King, and Michael told him if you
leave all of dot Com, I respect you. You paid
the path that young players of the sell. What's the
problem And Wes said, have nothing to do with you.
(17:55):
Ab Poland runned around telling everyone else that he's like
my father and I'm the lowest paid general manager in
the entire NBA. He's he's disrespecting me, and I'm quitting
and Michael said to do please, don't quit. I will
take care of this. So what to Pauland's house And
Pauland says, Tom, I'm ready to hire. I'm very excited
(18:16):
to hire you. What should I pay you? And Michael,
who's a very very intelligent man and a very saddened businessman,
said pay me what you think is fair. And Pauland
said to him, well, I understand the range of sellers
for the president team is between one million and two million,
so I hope to pay you one million. And I
think Ted probably had a heart attack when he heard that,
(18:38):
because he put it all in work, will go over
and do it and coming to pauland and said, I
have a suggestion, why don't you pay me two millions,
give one by two million to West and I'm going
to give the other million to charity. He worked for
free and he took care of us. So Michael had
a tremendous respect for the players that paved the path
before him. No, one of the things that he's done,
(19:00):
he's allowed the whole generations that came after him for
the past four years to enjoy incredible commercial success off
the board. And again that's one of the reasons I
think he's the goat. But he always expressed a tremendous
whatever differences he might have had with Jerry Krause, and
(19:20):
if you saw the last dance, they were many. Of course,
of course kept the problem. Now. I was amused with
Rich Paul, I really liked said that Michael had the
advantage of having Jerry Crouse. And I don't want to
say anything angry about Jerry Krouse because he died and
I'm good friends at ryin Star. But if you asked
me what I put when I put him in my
(19:42):
top twenty five gms over the last fifty years, I
would not I would note if he made a lot
of great, imprudent decisions. He drafted Charles Oakley over Karl Malone,
he drafted Brad Sellers over Johnny Dalk as the national
player there. And he made a lot of terrible decisions.
(20:03):
But they want and that's all. That's all it matters, David.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I want to know. I'm very I've always been very
interested in asking you this question. When Magic Johnson and
Larry Bird came into the league, obviously they deserve an
immense credit for building the popularity of the NBA brand.
Most would argue Jordan took it to another level. But
he did so because his individual greatness was so supreme,
(20:31):
so so so awesome that you know, he took the
game in a different direction, but it also individualized the
game more and as a result, people view that as
hurting the game. I look at Lebron and not that
he decided to depart from Cleveland to Miami, but how
he handled it, as you talk about respecting the game,
(20:54):
respecting the league, respecting the owner, etc. And the fact
that he was willing to be he's so publicly defiant
or dare I say dismissive of Dan Gilbert at that time.
I thought it served to compromise player empowerment to some
degree because collective bargaining negotiations took place thereafter. Remember there
was a Chris Paul trade to the Lakers that was
(21:16):
ultimately nixed once Dan Gilbert had raised Holy hell by
writing a public letter to the league, et cetera. When
you think about the damage that has been done to
the league, which obviously is flourishing, and so we got
to be careful with that word damaging. But if there's
a negative, is it veering away from team with Bird
(21:36):
and Magic and Boston and La to the individual greatness
of a Michael Jordan Or is it along the lines
of player empowerment and sovereignty exercised by the likes of
Lebron James that clearly has appeared to have a residual impact.
What is your thought about that question?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Well, first of all, well Lebron went to Baiani. He
was a free ager. He had the right to pick
any TV of the leg that he thought would best.
I have no I think the mistake he made, in
my opinion, it was a few mistate if pr misteak
was when he did the show the decision with Jim
Gray and he said, I'm going to win not one,
(22:13):
not two, not three, but eight titles, which he still
has at one. I think if I were Lebron's met,
and I love Maverick Carter, I'm very good friends with
Marverck Carter, who's Lebron's marketing on, I would have told
him do the interview and the day you win your
first ring, the first not a have a show, hold
(22:34):
up the ring and say this is why I came
to Miami, this is I couldn't achieve this in Cleveland. Now. Interestingly,
if I can give you a contrast, and I'm not
saying one is right one's wrong, it's just personal preference.
I asked Michael once, would you ever like to play
with Birdie Magic, sort of like to recreate the Dream
(22:55):
Team Olympic Barns, And he said, are you nuts? I
would never want to play with bird Magic. I wanted
to beat their butts every night on a one on
one competitive level, and just different personalities. That doesn't make
Lebron's choice wrong. And I want to be crystal clear,
I'm great respect for Lebron as a player. I think
(23:15):
his longevity, his impact, He's a great athlete, you know,
I think he probably could have played on the sports
And clearly, you know, when they asked me, do I
think he's in the top ten, of course I think
he's the top ten. Now. I had an interesting discussion
over dinner with President Obama about this very subject, like
(23:36):
who's number one, who's number two? I would say to
you publicly, what difference does it make who's number two? Oh?
Thing that makes the difference is who's number one? You
know who runded around four years? I say, God, don't
you think that the team that lost that Super Bowl
was a great team? No, they didn't win the Super Bowl.
(23:56):
Either one or you're not. And clearly Lebron will be
in the pantheon of great players for a lot of
years now. You could say arguably that the greatest player
was Bill Russell because he won most championships eleven out
of thirteen. You could say Oscar Robertson was the greatest
player because the average of triple double. When Michael was
(24:19):
asked in Cleveland, when they presented the top seventy five
players of all time, who do you think is the
greatest player of all time? Without hesitating, he said Oscar Robertson.
When they asked Lebron. Who's the greatest player of all time?
Without hesitating, he said Lebron James. Now, if someone asked me,
(24:39):
who do you think is the greatest agent ever of
all time? I say Larry Fleischer. He was the head
of the Union. He created the rules that allowed free agency,
all the things he did. Now, if someone thought that
I was the greatest, I would let them say that.
I would let you say that. I would never say
that myself. I just don't think it's a for you
(25:00):
to have to make that coming. But I want to
be crystal clear nationally, I would never want to offend
Lebron James. I like him. I think we have a
good relationship. I think I have a prety good relationship
with Rich and Maverick. And I monral Lebron for his
commitment to the game, his longevity, and I think he's
(25:23):
a completely different kind of a player than Michael most
people that I respected basketball, if you were comparing Kobe
and Lebron, saying Kobe's more like Michael and Lebron's more
like Magic, and I can make an argument that Magic
Johnson is one of the greatest players of all time. Now,
think about this, Dudd Okay. In nineteen seventy nine in
(25:46):
the NCAA Final, Magic squared afrigainst Burn. At the time,
it was the highest rated game in the history of
basketball at any level. Magic won. One year later, the
Lakers are playing philm and you're home to in the
NBA Finals, and in the game, Krim gets her Magic
play center. I remember the exactly. I think he had
(26:07):
thirty seven and fourteen, had the baby hook to.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Win the game. Forty two he had, forty two. He
had forty two.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yep, forty two and seventeen right huge rebounds. He won.
The game was the Finals MVP and Rookie of the Year. Now,
if he had a one year career, and I'm here
to give my props to Magic Johnson from the time
he won the NCAA to the time he'd be in
the Hall of Fame. Just for that one year, that
was one of the greatest impacts in basketball, college and
(26:37):
pro in one year. On top of that, you know,
as popular as Michael is. I think if Magic had
the proper representation as were working and we try to
sign it, we actually thought we're going to represent Magic.
I think Magic could have done a lot of the
things that Michael did at eighty four in nineteen seventy nine,
(26:58):
but he didn't have an agent that had the marketing
background or savvy right to understand the impact that Magic
made in the number one media market entertainment market in
the United States.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
David, before I let you get on out of here,
i'd be remissing neglecting to ask you this question. You
and I go back many years, many decades. We've known
each other since nineteen ninety five for crying out loud
rough around the edges at the beginning because I was
ignorant and didn't know any better, and then appreciate your
brilliance until later on when you took me under your wing.
It taught me so many things over the years. I
(27:31):
can't even express my level of gratitude to you, and
we're friends to this day. I wonder, and I want
to end this interview by asking you, being I'll say it,
arguably the greatest agent ever in any sport, considering what
you know, what you've negotiated, the connections that you have had,
(27:52):
the inroads you have made along the way to influence
the game, to influence sports overall. What are your thoughts
about today's business as it pertains to agents in today's
business compared to what it was when you were doing it.
I'll give you the floor. That's my very last question.
To you take the floor and answer that question.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Please, it's a great it's a great question, stup. So
Number one, I think that the preciple role of an
agent in business, whether you a Hollywood agent or sports agent,
is to negotiate contracts and something approximately seventy percent of
all the contracts in the NBA today are not negotiated
(28:33):
at all. If you're win Bayama and you're coming in
the league as the number one pick or Cooper Flag,
there's no negotiations. As a weight scale. If you're a
great player like Lebron or kerg, Kevin Durant, luc and Donsis,
there's no negotiations. There's a maximum. If you're an average player,
most of the teams are pretty well capped. There are
(28:55):
mid level exceptions, bi annual exceptions, there are minimums, and
so the roll of an agent has been dramatically curtailed
by the rules. It's very hard to make an impact.
If I can give you an example, So in my career,
as I mentioned, I had two rookies who are the
highest paid players of all time. I negotiated the first
(29:15):
ever one hundred million dollar contract Balonza Morning in nineteen
ninety five for one hundred and sixteen million dollars for
thirteen years, and I made him turn it down. One
year later, he signed for one hundred and five for seven.
He would have played six years for free, and he
thought I'd lost my mind when I told him to
turn it down. That was dramatically higher. I negotiated contract
(29:41):
the same year for Juwan Howard, who was a great
friend and a great player. He made seventy percent moan
than Chris Weber on the same team, playing the same position.
They went to the same college. I couldn't do that today,
I remember, you can't do it. So the ability to
separate was like in football, a great receiver separates himself,
(30:02):
That's how he captures the ball. In today's NBA, an
agent can't separate himself. And that frustrates me. It takes
away a lot of your creativity, a lot of the
things that I did that enabled me. Now I was
I was. I want to return the favorite of my
friend Rich Paul. I was disappointed that Rich Paul mistakenly
(30:25):
compared by comment about cherry picking, which means that you
are you are picking where you want to go, which
which your player has every right to do, is a
free agent. To the fact that three of the greatest
coaches in the history of college basketball, Dean Smith, John Thompson,
and Coach pay recommended me to their players. And the
reason he recommended me wasn't because they liked me. It's
(30:48):
because our track record with the rookies was so superior
to anyone else in the business that it was an
easy decision for them. Now, if I can give you
and your listeners an analogy to answer your first Pacific question, student,
I think the greatest investor in the history of the
United States was Warren Buffett, and he's also one of
(31:08):
the richest men. Now, if the Securities Exchange Commission, which
regulates investments, passed a rule and said no investment manager
can get more than a six percent return, you know
it's illegal to get more than six percent, he would
turn Warren Buffett into a first year kid out of
(31:29):
business school. I'll give you another example. Okay, I use
this frequently. I'm going to take Lebron back to his
days in Cleveland. Okay, early days, the NBA passes the
rule they say no player could score more than twelve
points a game. It's like fouling out. Once you had twelve,
you got to sit down. Now, Gollic Lebron James would
(31:50):
score twelve points in the first three minutes of the game.
He could literally go to a movie, come back and
meet with his teammates, you know, after the game. So
the season ends and he goes out to lunch with
his teammate Matthew Dalla Vadovo, and he says, Dalli, what
kind of year did you have? And Dallas says, average
forty one minutes and twelve points a game, And how'd
(32:13):
you do Lebron? Lebron say, will average three minutes and
twelve points a game, and Dallas says, well, I guess
we both the same kind of players because the rules
have homogenized Lebron's ability to be Lebron. And that's what
the agent business, in my opinion, has become. So I
was intrigued when the current MVP shake Gilgos Alexander decided
(32:36):
to represent himself. And while I think that there are
many reasons that shake yogis Alexander needs an agent, he
may want to get traded, he may be having problems
with the team. And there's a famous expression, Steven that
a lawyer who represents himself has a full for a client.
And so it's very difficult to walk in and say
(32:59):
I should be you know, I don't want to be here.
That's why you need third party people. But I think
that the I think that a lot of great players
are going to do what Kevin Durant did with Rich
Climbing a little bit what Lebron did with with Maverick
Carter and have one person as sort of like their
business manager, because the role of the negotiations has to climb. Now,
(33:22):
the other part that's critically important is marketing, and you know,
I think that, you know, I find of thing with
Aaron Goodwin. I think Aaron at one point had Lebron,
Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant, and Horford. He did an amazing
job for those guys in marketing. He got Lebron a
one hundred million dollar deal with Nike as a rookie,
(33:44):
got a big deal for Dwight Howard Royalties. I think,
you know, I think he's and I think there's a
very very important role for the star players to have
someone off the court. But as I said at the conference,
if I were coming out of law school today, based
on the state of the Union of the sports world,
I would definitely want to be in sports, but I
(34:05):
probably would not want to be an agent. I almost
definitely would not want to be an agent. And that's
why this spring, when my last client, Otto Porter Junior, retired,
I've let it run out. I don't want to sign
any more players. I love basketball, love what it's done
for me. I am humbled by the fact that some
fourteen Hall of Fame players have the trust of their
(34:27):
careers for me, including the Goat. Everyone knows you know
how important that relationship has been in my life. I
would expand that include Patrick coach Thompson, who's the number
one John Thompson in my books. You know, if you
read my book The Ball Truth, John Thompson was the
most influential man in my life. Not the most influential coach,
(34:49):
not the most influential client, the most influent. I learned
so much from John that he should have been and
so I've been privileged to work for the best of
the brightest, privileged to meet people who are great their profession,
like you, I admire what you've done in your career
since we've known each other from the time they were
(35:10):
cub Report in Philly. And I want to end by
saying this is not this you know, last thing I
want to say in the day Magic Isaiah Mark mc
guire her boy, and so I really like represented by
a guy and Charlie Talker. He was a fun guy.
(35:31):
I like Charlie and our guys they were more urban guys.
Our guys all came, as Rich pointed out, from Carolina, Duke, Georgetown, Kansas,
you know. And the coaches basically gave us the players.
They didn't do it to do us a favor. They
didn't do it because they had any benefit. They did
it because they wanted their players to make the most
(35:52):
money that they could. And it was sort of like
it was like the Bloods and the Crips. They were
sold a little competition or in the All Star Game
in eighty five, I would name names some of the
players from that group try to incruit Michael to leave
us and can go with Charlie Tucker, and Michael was
really offended because he's such an incredibly loyal person and
(36:14):
so It's not a battle between Michael and Lebron. I
think that two of the greatest players in history, not
necessarily the two greatest players, two of the greatest players
in history. Lebron's earned my respect, you know, a long
time ago, and if I say anything that offended him,
I would publicly apologize. Not my intent, I think it.
(36:37):
As Michael correctly points out, maybe it's a good way
to end the discussion. It is almost impossible to could
players from different eras. When Bill Russell won eleven titles,
there are only eight teams in the league. When UCLA
won all those championships in a row, there was only
sixteen teams in the In the NCAA tournament, it's a
(36:57):
lot easier you start out in the sixteen today. Getting
to the screen sixteen is a pretty good accomplishment for
a lot of teams. But what I think separates Michael
from every other player is not how many games you
want or how many points he scored. It's the impact
that he made on the game in so many different areas.
As I mentioned earlier, being the first player to be
(37:18):
a majority owner, the opportunities that he personally and individually created.
You know, there was a whole a bunch of people
Stephen after Jordan came to the league. It's like the
search for the fountain of youth. They want to know,
is Harold Miner nicknamed Baby Jordan? Was he going to
(37:39):
be the next guy? Was Petty Hardaway going to be
the next guy? At one point it was gonna be
Ron Harper was going to be the next guy. And
the truth is, they'll never be another Michael. They just won't.
He came from an incredible family, two petam family, you know,
credible coach, and so let's leave it that. You know,
let's leave it that way.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Well, listen, we'll leave it that way. I mean, Michael
Jordan is my goat as well. But that's no disrespect
to Lebron James. There's no disrespect in being perceived as
one of the top two players in the history of
basketball or anything like that. But the bottom line is this,
no matter how grateful we all are to have seen
great players and have witnessed the greatness of gods like them,
I've also been very, very grateful and very lucky to
(38:23):
witness the greatness of you, my man. We go back
decades and I appreciate all you've done to edify me
and help me along the way in my career. And
I'm honored to have had this conversation with you. David Falk.
You're one of the best ever, so I really really
appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to
sit down with me and talk with me about this subject. Right,
you take care of yourself. Okay, we'll talk, So thank
(38:43):
you for your time.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Word jump, are very.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Grateful, all right, my man, take care The one and
only David Falk right here when the Stephen A. Smith
Show of the digital areas of YouTube and of course
our heart radio.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah,
Staying in the NBA but moving off the court. Michael
Jordan's longtime agent, extraordinary mister David Falk, weighed in on
the goat debate this week. Not surprisingly, Falk back to
his former client, but he took it a step further.
Speaking with The Sports Business Journal, Falk had this to say, quote,
I really really like Lebron, but I think if Jordan
(00:24):
had cherry picked what teams he wanted to be on
and two other superstars, he would have won fifteen championships.
End quote. This prompted a response from none other than
Lebron James agent himself, mister Rich Paul, take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We can't have revisionist history and we all want to
just determine who's the gold and who's the best, and
so on and so forth. But I just thought that
was a little beneath David to say that Michael never
had to leave they you know, Michael's never been the
underdog in any finals, not one time. Michael never had
(01:03):
a twenty four hour three sixty five news cycle, He
never had shows built strictly to criticize him. People made
millions of dollars criticizing Lebron James that was their entire job.
Michael played for Dean Smith, Michael played for Phil Jackson,
and Michael had Jerry Krause. I'm the biggest Michael Jordan
(01:27):
fan ever, love Michael Jordan, and I don't think Michael
Jordan would have used the term cherry picks, So I'm
not up here to just credit Michael Jordan. I think
Michael Jordan transcended our game to a level that we
all benefited from.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
What the hell do you mean, Rich Paul, when you
say Michael never had a twenty four hour, three hundred
and sixty five news cycle, He never had shows built
strictly to criticize them. What shows are built strictly to
criticize Lebron James? See? This is the BS. This, this
(02:00):
is the BS Recover the Sport. It's a twenty four
hours news cycle. There are plenty of positive things that
are said about Lebron James on every show, every show.
This is where the wanting and moaning accusations come from
from him and his camp. What twenty four hour, three
(02:21):
hundred and sixty five news cycle has shows built strictly
to criticize them? So, in other words, the shows that
criticize them never ever ever give him credit. Huh Ever, Look, man,
I ain't got time. I'm not gonna even waste my
time with this. I'm gonna get to my next guest.
(02:41):
I'm gonna get to my next guest right now. I'd
like to welcome to the show none other than mister
David Falk himself. Longtime buddy. How you doing, David?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
How's everything you delighted to be with the student?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You said what you said? You've had an opportunity to
reflect on what you had to say about Lebron James
in comparison to Michael Jordan. The floor is yours. What
would you like to say now?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I'm saying I thennounced that clearly Lebron James is a
great player in any era. You'd be foolish to suggest
on the laws, his longevity is, his stistics are amazing.
I think what makes Michael to go goes way beyond
the court. I think on the court, Michael obviated the
(03:23):
center posision. Prior to Jordan, we needed the Elijah Watson Ewings,
the Koreem's, the Bobonaiers, and the way Michael played he
made it unnecessary to have a great center. Look when
won the champions for Bill Weddington, Dicky Simpkins, Bill cart Right,
and I think that had a huge impact on the game. Secondly,
(03:45):
perhaps even more importantly, I think Michael individually broke down
every barrier that existed for professional basketball players, and in
particular African American professional basketball players, to become national mark
getting brand ambassadors. So the whole generation of Rob's and
Kobe's and Steph Curry's having the run shoes and being
(04:08):
in commercials did not exist before Michael came in the game.
Magic didn't have it, Bird didn't have it, Doctor Jaye
didn't have it, Kareem didn't have it, And I think
that's a preponderant impact. I think third, I believe he's
the first NBA player to become a billionaire. I believe
he's the first NBA player to become a majority owner
(04:29):
of an NBA team. And finally, he had tremendous hit
back on fashion. He changed the look of the way
the players play with the long shorts. He made bald
and beautiful. And so I think beyond comparing statistics, who
had more points, who averaged more, even who had more championships,
(04:50):
I think Michael's impact is extremely broad and deep in
what he did to change the game. I don't think
any other player in history will kind of impact.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
What do you make of people who would look and
I'm gonna I want to get far beyond those two
individuals that we're talking about for the moment, But I
got this one question to ask you, what do you
make of folks and their assertions that the times that
we're living in now, the advent of social media, did
the digital stratus fere uh the microscope that is on
(05:23):
players in today's game like never before. The impression is
given that even the great Michael Jordan, with his and
you know, unparalleled popularity, I compare him to know one,
the only person I've ever compared him to was Michael
Jackson for crying out loud. That's how popular Michael Jordan was.
When you listen to people talk today, they talk about
the climate, the environment, uh, the society that we're living
(05:46):
in today, and they say it's far more invasive than
it has ever been, which makes the road tougher for
a guy like Lebron James compared to what Jordan had
to endure during his complain his playing career. You've been
around a long time, you know this business like the
back of your hand. What do you make of that?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Of those assertions, clearly social media has brought the fans
closer to the players. Everyone can express their opinion. You
don't have to work for a newspaper or a television
station to have an opinion. But I think that's the
natural tendency when you're the best at anything, there's a
human tendency to try to tear people down, and certainly
(06:26):
Michael have that because of his immense popularity. You know,
people criticize them, for example, for not being political enough,
not expressing his desire for certain candidates, and so sure,
I think that the social media has changed the game.
I also think if you want to be objective, the
game has changed itself. I had this discussion about a
(06:47):
month ago with Ron Thorne, who's a very dear friend
of mine who drafted Michael Jordan, and he said to me,
which I didn't know, He said, do you realize today
that the average NBA team takes one thver more shots
than they did in Jordan zero? So when Jordan averaged
thirty eight points a game, if you if you increase
(07:07):
that by a third, that means he would average fifty two. Now,
I think Michael could have averaged and Michael took one
point seven threes per game, that's all they tell. I
think he could have averaged almost anything he wanted if
if that was what was required to win. That's all
he cared about was winning, And I think his record
of six out of six is the greatest. Master of
(07:30):
the NBA never lost the.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Championship well, don't forget. He also never allowed a championship
series to get to a seventh game. He took you
out in six or less every single time. That's the
Michael Jordan that we're talking about here, David, expanding beyond
Michael Jordan and Lebron James when we think about the
age that we're living in. One of the discussions your
(07:53):
comments prompted was player empowerment and the kind of things
that have taken place in today's and in today's sports world.
As as an agent, looking at the state of affairs
that exist not just in the NBA but professional sports
as it pertains the sovereignty involving players, player empowerment, et cetera,
(08:15):
et cetera. What are the kind of thoughts that come
to your mind as to what we're witnessing today, and
whether or not it's good or it's bad for the
world of sports in this day and age.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Great question. So Number one, I believe that players great
players have only their in power. I think the biggest
difference between today's generation of players and if you will,
Jordan's generation, the Magic's generation, is how the players exercise
the power. Now, if you understand that in nineteen eighty two,
(08:48):
that's a long time ago, the NBA ushered in a
solid cap and for the last forty three years, the
players have essentially owned fifty revenues, so their fifty to
fifty partners with the league. The only way players can
make more money is to grow the business of the NBA. Now,
(09:08):
I believe that when players exercise their power poorly and
they make statements that detigrate the game, I think that
they're impeding the ability of themselves to make more money,
which is foolished. So I'll give you a couple of
examples you want to talk about player empowerment. In nineteen
(09:30):
eighty four, in nineteen eighty five, there were two players
in the history of the game that opted out of
the group licensing program. What was named Michael Jordan what
was named Patrick Ewing. They did not allow the league
to use them in group licensing, and I opted about
of both of them. Are you not allowed to do
that today? In nineteen eighty five, Patrick Cownie became the
(09:53):
first player in history to have an early termination option
in his contract. He signed a ten year deal three
times more money than Magic made the year before as
a veteran, and he had the option to opt out
after six years if market conditions change. That is empowerment.
Michael Jordan was the first player to have the love
(10:14):
of the Game clause that did not require him to
that allowed him to practice at North Carolina in the summer,
which came to Bekna's know as the love of the
Game clause. Darnell Valentine in nineteen eighty became the first
player to challenge the league's ability under paragraph thirteen B
to prevent players from doing endorsements or interviews without permission
(10:36):
of the team. That's in every contract now Valentine versus
the Portland Trail players. So I can give you one
hundred examples of player empowerment. Patrick Ewing became the first
rookie in history to be the highest paid player in
the league. He made fifty five percent more money than Koreem,
who was the highest paid veteran of all time. I
(10:58):
believe that that's empower them. Andy Ferry did the same
thing in nineteen ninety and he clearly was not one
of the great players in the history league. So I
believe that players in every sport have always had tremendous power.
But I think that today I don't think they use
it as judiciously as they should. If the goal is
(11:18):
to make more money and grow the business.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, let me ask you this, David, give me an
example if you can. If it's compromising, please don't bother.
But if you can, give me an example of players
that have exercised influence and exercised power, but you don't
believe it's necessarily for their good or for the good
of the game. Could you highlight an example that would
(11:43):
it be good to illustrate your point?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Well's of a seference to what I would say is
is traders? Okay? Now, I personally personally probably made ten
or fifteen major trades. I made the Patrick Ewing trade
to see how I didn't want to make it. I
didn't believe it, but he and the next agreed to
will be best to have a change of scenery. It
was a thirteen player trade. I traded stuff on Marlbury,
(12:08):
New Jersey and the thirteen player trade with Sam Cassell.
I did that behind the scenes. The minute you announced
publicly as a player that you're not going to play
anymore hard as an example, you know, it makes it
so much harder to make the trade for the exact
reason that Rich Paul indicated. It's hard for Lebron because
you're shining the spotlight on the player, and the other
(12:32):
teams around the league know that the player is demanded
a trade, he doesn't want to be there. It's going
to be a problem, and so they're not going to
offer fair value and so the very goal the player
has of moving he frustrated. It makes more difficult by,
you know, by publicly announcing it. Now. The opposite of that,
interestingly to me, and I'm a big Nico Harrison fan,
(12:56):
is the fact that Dallas only talked to one team
to trade Luca. You know, Lucas were on the top
five players in the league and it wasn't competitive bidding.
I know they had their reasons for it. I don't
understand all the dynamics, so I'm not here to criticize it,
but it surprised me that if you if you're going
to sell one of the most valuable assets in the league,
(13:18):
that you wouldn't want to have the highest level of
competitive bidding. But the trade is the easiest example I
could give you, Steven, Well, now I'll give you an
example on the agent side. Okay. I believe that every
time an agent comes out publicly and says any of
the following, my player's not getting enough playing time, it's
not getting enough shots, not making enough money, the team
(13:41):
is taking advantage of them. They are advertising that they've
done a really lousy job of being an agent, because
if they were doing a good job, none of those
things would be happening. And if they were happening, then
the answer is to sit down with the owner or
the general manager behind the seeds and try to figure
that a way to prove I'm gonna tell you a
(14:01):
funny story, Okay. In two thousand, I saw my only
high school player in my fifty year career, a guy
named Darius Miles. He was the third pick in the draft,
and yes, I went to a game one night in
LA to see Elton Brand. Our company at that time
represented eight of the players on the Clippers eight. I
(14:23):
didn't represent the ball myself. I only had Elton. I
walk into the locker room to see Elton and he
motions beat it talk to Darius. Apparently on the way
from the locker room from the court into the locker room,
Darius hadn't played a minute. He cursed out the coach,
Alvit Gentry, who I've known since he was the assistant
(14:44):
coach of Very Brown and Kids, squeak guy. So I
go over to Alvit. I say, Alan, what's the problem.
He said, David, I love it. I love Darius, but
he's not working hard enough. Okay. So I told Darius
to come to my hotel them the next day and
I said to him, son, if you want to play,
or do you want to sit on the bench. They said,
of course I want to mister Faulk, That's why I'm unhappy.
(15:07):
I said, well, I don't think you want to play,
and he said, why would you say that? I said,
because if you want to play, you have to show
the coach that you want to play, and the way
you show him is by working harder. He doesn't feel
your work hard, and I promise you that if you
want Carter, he will play more. That was on a Thursday.
(15:28):
The next night they played the Houston Rockets. Darius played
thirty minutes. I had twenty one or nine. I went
to congratulate him after the game. Couldn't find him. Where
do you think he was? He was in the weight room.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Probably after the games in the weight room.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Now, I went up to coach Gentry, who I really like,
and said, album is this complicated? You want him to play?
You want him to work and he wants to play. Now,
most coaches in the NBA today are reluctant to tell
the players that I working hard enough. Now. I'm not
talking about the Papovitches or the pat Rileys. I'm talking
(16:05):
about the younger coats because they're afraid they're going to
lose the relationship with the players. The players are so
much of them, they don't want to tell the coach
that is bothering them that they're not playing. They don't
think that's cool. And I think you need to communicate.
So my job is to talk to a guy like
Alvin and tell them that. And it solved the problem.
(16:26):
And so I think that I think on both sides,
this is a thing that should be done behind the scenes.
Pride with my mom, who's a very highly educated woman,
my life mentor. She taught me when I was very
never hang your derby logging out publicly. And so I
think demanding trades, complaining about how much you're making, those
(16:48):
things are not productive to achieving the results that you
want to achieve. And on top of it, I think
it demeans the game. And I think one of the
great differences between Jordan's era and today is I think
the players had a much greater as a whole, not
saying every single player had a much greater respect for
the game as a as a whole. I'm going to
(17:09):
tell you a great story, and you've never heard when
Michael Jordan, please was recruited by Ted Leonsis, the current
owner of the Washington Wizards, to come to Washington being
the president. The day he was going to get file
approval from a Poland West Uncelton's the GM of the
team and the face of the franchise for many years
from nineteen sixty seven. This is nineteen ninety nine, he
(17:33):
called me up and asked me the set up a
meeting for him with Michael. I didn't attend the meeting,
but apparently at the meeting, West told Michael who's been
leading with Michael King, and Michael told him if you
leave all of dot Com, I respect you. You paid
the path that young players of the sell. What's the
problem And Wes said, have nothing to do with you.
(17:55):
Ab Poland runned around telling everyone else that he's like
my father and I'm the lowest paid general manager in
the entire NBA. He's he's disrespecting me, and I'm quitting
and Michael said to do please, don't quit. I will
take care of this. So what to Pauland's house And
Pauland says, Tom, I'm ready to hire. I'm very excited
(18:16):
to hire you. What should I pay you? And Michael,
who's a very very intelligent man and a very saddened businessman,
said pay me what you think is fair. And Pauland
said to him, well, I understand the range of sellers
for the president team is between one million and two million,
so I hope to pay you one million. And I
think Ted probably had a heart attack when he heard that,
(18:38):
because he put it all in work, will go over
and do it and coming to pauland and said, I
have a suggestion, why don't you pay me two millions,
give one by two million to West and I'm going
to give the other million to charity. He worked for
free and he took care of us. So Michael had
a tremendous respect for the players that paved the path
before him. No, one of the things that he's done,
(19:00):
he's allowed the whole generations that came after him for
the past four years to enjoy incredible commercial success off
the board. And again that's one of the reasons I
think he's the goat. But he always expressed a tremendous
whatever differences he might have had with Jerry Krause, and
(19:20):
if you saw the last dance, they were many. Of course,
of course kept the problem. Now. I was amused with
Rich Paul, I really liked said that Michael had the
advantage of having Jerry Crouse. And I don't want to
say anything angry about Jerry Krouse because he died and
I'm good friends at ryin Star. But if you asked
me what I put when I put him in my
(19:42):
top twenty five gms over the last fifty years, I
would not I would note if he made a lot
of great, imprudent decisions. He drafted Charles Oakley over Karl Malone,
he drafted Brad Sellers over Johnny Dalk as the national
player there. And he made a lot of terrible decisions.
(20:03):
But they want and that's all. That's all it matters, David.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I want to know. I'm very I've always been very
interested in asking you this question. When Magic Johnson and
Larry Bird came into the league, obviously they deserve an
immense credit for building the popularity of the NBA brand.
Most would argue Jordan took it to another level. But
he did so because his individual greatness was so supreme,
(20:31):
so so so awesome that you know, he took the
game in a different direction, but it also individualized the
game more and as a result, people view that as
hurting the game. I look at Lebron and not that
he decided to depart from Cleveland to Miami, but how
he handled it, as you talk about respecting the game,
(20:54):
respecting the league, respecting the owner, etc. And the fact
that he was willing to be he's so publicly defiant
or dare I say dismissive of Dan Gilbert at that time.
I thought it served to compromise player empowerment to some
degree because collective bargaining negotiations took place thereafter. Remember there
was a Chris Paul trade to the Lakers that was
(21:16):
ultimately nixed once Dan Gilbert had raised Holy hell by
writing a public letter to the league, et cetera. When
you think about the damage that has been done to
the league, which obviously is flourishing, and so we got
to be careful with that word damaging. But if there's
a negative, is it veering away from team with Bird
(21:36):
and Magic and Boston and La to the individual greatness
of a Michael Jordan Or is it along the lines
of player empowerment and sovereignty exercised by the likes of
Lebron James that clearly has appeared to have a residual impact.
What is your thought about that question?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Well, first of all, well Lebron went to Baiani. He
was a free ager. He had the right to pick
any TV of the leg that he thought would best.
I have no I think the mistake he made, in
my opinion, it was a few mistate if pr misteak
was when he did the show the decision with Jim
Gray and he said, I'm going to win not one,
(22:13):
not two, not three, but eight titles, which he still
has at one. I think if I were Lebron's met,
and I love Maverick Carter, I'm very good friends with
Marverck Carter, who's Lebron's marketing on, I would have told
him do the interview and the day you win your
first ring, the first not a have a show, hold
(22:34):
up the ring and say this is why I came
to Miami, this is I couldn't achieve this in Cleveland. Now. Interestingly,
if I can give you a contrast, and I'm not
saying one is right one's wrong, it's just personal preference.
I asked Michael once, would you ever like to play
with Birdie Magic, sort of like to recreate the Dream
(22:55):
Team Olympic Barns, And he said, are you nuts? I
would never want to play with bird Magic. I wanted
to beat their butts every night on a one on
one competitive level, and just different personalities. That doesn't make
Lebron's choice wrong. And I want to be crystal clear,
I'm great respect for Lebron as a player. I think
(23:15):
his longevity, his impact, He's a great athlete, you know,
I think he probably could have played on the sports
And clearly, you know, when they asked me, do I
think he's in the top ten, of course I think
he's the top ten. Now. I had an interesting discussion
over dinner with President Obama about this very subject, like
(23:36):
who's number one, who's number two? I would say to
you publicly, what difference does it make who's number two? Oh?
Thing that makes the difference is who's number one? You
know who runded around four years? I say, God, don't
you think that the team that lost that Super Bowl
was a great team? No, they didn't win the Super Bowl.
(23:56):
Either one or you're not. And clearly Lebron will be
in the pantheon of great players for a lot of
years now. You could say arguably that the greatest player
was Bill Russell because he won most championships eleven out
of thirteen. You could say Oscar Robertson was the greatest
player because the average of triple double. When Michael was
(24:19):
asked in Cleveland, when they presented the top seventy five
players of all time, who do you think is the
greatest player of all time? Without hesitating, he said Oscar Robertson.
When they asked Lebron. Who's the greatest player of all time?
Without hesitating, he said Lebron James. Now, if someone asked me,
(24:39):
who do you think is the greatest agent ever of
all time? I say Larry Fleischer. He was the head
of the Union. He created the rules that allowed free agency,
all the things he did. Now, if someone thought that
I was the greatest, I would let them say that.
I would let you say that. I would never say
that myself. I just don't think it's a for you
(25:00):
to have to make that coming. But I want to
be crystal clear nationally, I would never want to offend
Lebron James. I like him. I think we have a
good relationship. I think I have a prety good relationship
with Rich and Maverick. And I monral Lebron for his
commitment to the game, his longevity, and I think he's
(25:23):
a completely different kind of a player than Michael most
people that I respected basketball, if you were comparing Kobe
and Lebron, saying Kobe's more like Michael and Lebron's more
like Magic, and I can make an argument that Magic
Johnson is one of the greatest players of all time. Now,
think about this, Dudd Okay. In nineteen seventy nine in
(25:46):
the NCAA Final, Magic squared afrigainst Burn. At the time,
it was the highest rated game in the history of
basketball at any level. Magic won. One year later, the
Lakers are playing philm and you're home to in the
NBA Finals, and in the game, Krim gets her Magic
play center. I remember the exactly. I think he had
(26:07):
thirty seven and fourteen, had the baby hook to.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Win the game. Forty two he had, forty two. He
had forty two.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yep, forty two and seventeen right huge rebounds. He won.
The game was the Finals MVP and Rookie of the Year. Now,
if he had a one year career, and I'm here
to give my props to Magic Johnson from the time
he won the NCAA to the time he'd be in
the Hall of Fame. Just for that one year, that
was one of the greatest impacts in basketball, college and
(26:37):
pro in one year. On top of that, you know,
as popular as Michael is. I think if Magic had
the proper representation as were working and we try to
sign it, we actually thought we're going to represent Magic.
I think Magic could have done a lot of the
things that Michael did at eighty four in nineteen seventy nine,
(26:58):
but he didn't have an agent that had the marketing
background or savvy right to understand the impact that Magic
made in the number one media market entertainment market in
the United States.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
David, before I let you get on out of here,
i'd be remissing neglecting to ask you this question. You
and I go back many years, many decades. We've known
each other since nineteen ninety five for crying out loud
rough around the edges at the beginning because I was
ignorant and didn't know any better, and then appreciate your
brilliance until later on when you took me under your wing.
It taught me so many things over the years. I
(27:31):
can't even express my level of gratitude to you, and
we're friends to this day. I wonder, and I want
to end this interview by asking you, being I'll say it,
arguably the greatest agent ever in any sport, considering what
you know, what you've negotiated, the connections that you have had,
(27:52):
the inroads you have made along the way to influence
the game, to influence sports overall. What are your thoughts
about today's business as it pertains to agents in today's
business compared to what it was when you were doing it.
I'll give you the floor. That's my very last question.
To you take the floor and answer that question.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Please, it's a great it's a great question, stup. So
Number one, I think that the preciple role of an
agent in business, whether you a Hollywood agent or sports agent,
is to negotiate contracts and something approximately seventy percent of
all the contracts in the NBA today are not negotiated
(28:33):
at all. If you're win Bayama and you're coming in
the league as the number one pick or Cooper Flag,
there's no negotiations. As a weight scale. If you're a
great player like Lebron or kerg, Kevin Durant, luc and Donsis,
there's no negotiations. There's a maximum. If you're an average player,
most of the teams are pretty well capped. There are
(28:55):
mid level exceptions, bi annual exceptions, there are minimums, and
so the roll of an agent has been dramatically curtailed
by the rules. It's very hard to make an impact.
If I can give you an example, So in my career,
as I mentioned, I had two rookies who are the
highest paid players of all time. I negotiated the first
(29:15):
ever one hundred million dollar contract Balonza Morning in nineteen
ninety five for one hundred and sixteen million dollars for
thirteen years, and I made him turn it down. One
year later, he signed for one hundred and five for seven.
He would have played six years for free, and he
thought I'd lost my mind when I told him to
turn it down. That was dramatically higher. I negotiated contract
(29:41):
the same year for Juwan Howard, who was a great
friend and a great player. He made seventy percent moan
than Chris Weber on the same team, playing the same position.
They went to the same college. I couldn't do that today,
I remember, you can't do it. So the ability to
separate was like in football, a great receiver separates himself,
(30:02):
That's how he captures the ball. In today's NBA, an
agent can't separate himself. And that frustrates me. It takes
away a lot of your creativity, a lot of the
things that I did that enabled me. Now I was
I was. I want to return the favorite of my
friend Rich Paul. I was disappointed that Rich Paul mistakenly
(30:25):
compared by comment about cherry picking, which means that you
are you are picking where you want to go, which
which your player has every right to do, is a
free agent. To the fact that three of the greatest
coaches in the history of college basketball, Dean Smith, John Thompson,
and Coach pay recommended me to their players. And the
reason he recommended me wasn't because they liked me. It's
(30:48):
because our track record with the rookies was so superior
to anyone else in the business that it was an
easy decision for them. Now, if I can give you
and your listeners an analogy to answer your first Pacific question, student,
I think the greatest investor in the history of the
United States was Warren Buffett, and he's also one of
(31:08):
the richest men. Now, if the Securities Exchange Commission, which
regulates investments, passed a rule and said no investment manager
can get more than a six percent return, you know
it's illegal to get more than six percent, he would
turn Warren Buffett into a first year kid out of
(31:29):
business school. I'll give you another example. Okay, I use
this frequently. I'm going to take Lebron back to his
days in Cleveland. Okay, early days, the NBA passes the
rule they say no player could score more than twelve
points a game. It's like fouling out. Once you had twelve,
you got to sit down. Now, Gollic Lebron James would
(31:50):
score twelve points in the first three minutes of the game.
He could literally go to a movie, come back and
meet with his teammates, you know, after the game. So
the season ends and he goes out to lunch with
his teammate Matthew Dalla Vadovo, and he says, Dalli, what
kind of year did you have? And Dallas says, average
forty one minutes and twelve points a game, And how'd
(32:13):
you do Lebron? Lebron say, will average three minutes and
twelve points a game, and Dallas says, well, I guess
we both the same kind of players because the rules
have homogenized Lebron's ability to be Lebron. And that's what
the agent business, in my opinion, has become. So I
was intrigued when the current MVP shake Gilgos Alexander decided
(32:36):
to represent himself. And while I think that there are
many reasons that shake yogis Alexander needs an agent, he
may want to get traded, he may be having problems
with the team. And there's a famous expression, Steven that
a lawyer who represents himself has a full for a client.
And so it's very difficult to walk in and say
(32:59):
I should be you know, I don't want to be here.
That's why you need third party people. But I think
that the I think that a lot of great players
are going to do what Kevin Durant did with Rich
Climbing a little bit what Lebron did with with Maverick
Carter and have one person as sort of like their
business manager, because the role of the negotiations has to climb. Now,
(33:22):
the other part that's critically important is marketing, and you know,
I think that, you know, I find of thing with
Aaron Goodwin. I think Aaron at one point had Lebron,
Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant, and Horford. He did an amazing
job for those guys in marketing. He got Lebron a
one hundred million dollar deal with Nike as a rookie,
(33:44):
got a big deal for Dwight Howard Royalties. I think,
you know, I think he's and I think there's a
very very important role for the star players to have
someone off the court. But as I said at the conference,
if I were coming out of law school today, based
on the state of the Union of the sports world,
I would definitely want to be in sports, but I
(34:05):
probably would not want to be an agent. I almost
definitely would not want to be an agent. And that's
why this spring, when my last client, Otto Porter Junior, retired,
I've let it run out. I don't want to sign
any more players. I love basketball, love what it's done
for me. I am humbled by the fact that some
fourteen Hall of Fame players have the trust of their
(34:27):
careers for me, including the Goat. Everyone knows you know
how important that relationship has been in my life. I
would expand that include Patrick coach Thompson, who's the number
one John Thompson in my books. You know, if you
read my book The Ball Truth, John Thompson was the
most influential man in my life. Not the most influential coach,
(34:49):
not the most influential client, the most influent. I learned
so much from John that he should have been and
so I've been privileged to work for the best of
the brightest, privileged to meet people who are great their profession,
like you, I admire what you've done in your career
since we've known each other from the time they were
(35:10):
cub Report in Philly. And I want to end by
saying this is not this you know, last thing I
want to say in the day Magic Isaiah Mark mc
guire her boy, and so I really like represented by
a guy and Charlie Talker. He was a fun guy.
(35:31):
I like Charlie and our guys they were more urban guys.
Our guys all came, as Rich pointed out, from Carolina, Duke, Georgetown, Kansas,
you know. And the coaches basically gave us the players.
They didn't do it to do us a favor. They
didn't do it because they had any benefit. They did
it because they wanted their players to make the most
(35:52):
money that they could. And it was sort of like
it was like the Bloods and the Crips. They were
sold a little competition or in the All Star Game
in eighty five, I would name names some of the
players from that group try to incruit Michael to leave
us and can go with Charlie Tucker, and Michael was
really offended because he's such an incredibly loyal person and
(36:14):
so It's not a battle between Michael and Lebron. I
think that two of the greatest players in history, not
necessarily the two greatest players, two of the greatest players
in history. Lebron's earned my respect, you know, a long
time ago, and if I say anything that offended him,
I would publicly apologize. Not my intent, I think it.
(36:37):
As Michael correctly points out, maybe it's a good way
to end the discussion. It is almost impossible to could
players from different eras. When Bill Russell won eleven titles,
there are only eight teams in the league. When UCLA
won all those championships in a row, there was only
sixteen teams in the In the NCAA tournament, it's a
(36:57):
lot easier you start out in the sixteen today. Getting
to the screen sixteen is a pretty good accomplishment for
a lot of teams. But what I think separates Michael
from every other player is not how many games you
want or how many points he scored. It's the impact
that he made on the game in so many different areas.
As I mentioned earlier, being the first player to be
(37:18):
a majority owner, the opportunities that he personally and individually created.
You know, there was a whole a bunch of people
Stephen after Jordan came to the league. It's like the
search for the fountain of youth. They want to know,
is Harold Miner nicknamed Baby Jordan? Was he going to
(37:39):
be the next guy? Was Petty Hardaway going to be
the next guy? At one point it was gonna be
Ron Harper was going to be the next guy. And
the truth is, they'll never be another Michael. They just won't.
He came from an incredible family, two petam family, you know,
credible coach, and so let's leave it that. You know,
let's leave it that way.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Well, listen, we'll leave it that way. I mean, Michael
Jordan is my goat as well. But that's no disrespect
to Lebron James. There's no disrespect in being perceived as
one of the top two players in the history of
basketball or anything like that. But the bottom line is this,
no matter how grateful we all are to have seen
great players and have witnessed the greatness of gods like them,
I've also been very, very grateful and very lucky to
(38:23):
witness the greatness of you, my man. We go back
decades and I appreciate all you've done to edify me
and help me along the way in my career. And
I'm honored to have had this conversation with you. David Falk.
You're one of the best ever, so I really really
appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to
sit down with me and talk with me about this subject. Right,
you take care of yourself. Okay, we'll talk, So thank
(38:43):
you for your time.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Word jump, are very.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Grateful, all right, my man, take care The one and
only David Falk right here when the Stephen A. Smith
Show of the digital areas of YouTube and of course
our heart radio.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah,
Host
Stephen A. Smith
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.