June 10, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode, Lisa interviews Jennifer Sey, founder of XX-XY Athletics and former world Levis executive, about the controversy over transgender athletes in women’s sports. Jennifer shares her experiences as an elite gymnast and activist, discusses the cultural and political dynamics of the debate, and highlights her efforts to protect women’s sports through campaigns like "Dear Nike." The conversation covers recent disputes involving Simone Biles and Riley Gaines, emphasizing the importance of fairness, safety, and advocacy for female athletes in the current sports landscape. The Truth with Lisa Boothe is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - ew episodes debut every Tuesday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we cut
through the noise to get to the heart of what
matters the biggest issues facing our country today. We've got
Jennifer Say on the show. She is president and founder
of xx x y Athletics. She's also a former Levi's executive.
We found her on the show before she found herself
in a little bit of hot water, speaking out against
lockdowns and school closures. Well, now she's entered the fray again.
(00:22):
She's become a leading voice in the fight for fairness
in women's sports. That's the emphasis, the whole basis of
her company, XXXY, to keep men out of women's sports.
We'll talk about our companies dear Nike campaign which went viral,
obviously calling out Nike for not protecting women's sports, and
of course, as her background as an elite gymnast, we'll
(00:42):
talk to her about Simone Biles, who decided to go
after Riley Gains. I'm sure you guys all saw that
Twitter exchange. She called Riley a bully. Even you know,
criticized Riley's appearance. So why the hell is Simone Biles
getting involved in this? Why isn't she protecting women's sports.
As Jennifer out that and then from Minnesota to California,
(01:02):
we're seeing blue states across the country at odds with
the Trump administration doubling down on men and women's sports.
I'll get her take on that and so much more.
So stay tuned for Jennifer Say, President and founder of
xx X Y Athletics.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, Jennifer Say, it's great to have you on.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I ran into you recently, which was great to see
you and see You're in my mind. So I was like,
I've got to get you on after the Simone Biles
and all this other stuff going on. So I was like,
I've got to have you on the show. So I
appreciate you making the time.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So, you know, Jennifer, I had you on previously when
we were talking about you know, you took a stand
during COVID about school closures and you ended up, you know,
put your job in jeopardy as an executive Levi Strauss
and Company. You've now entered the fray again on another
you know, controversial issue, which you know, really if you
think about either of these issues, they shouldn't be controversial. Yet,
(01:59):
you know, here we are as a society. But you
started a clothing company focused on men and women's sports
and keeping men out of women's sports. But we're basically
just preserving women's sports for women. Wh I get involved
in this fight, I'm.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
A glutton for punishment.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well we think, we think like so I respect it.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, And you know, you skipped my first sort of
internet flogging, which was long time ago, at the beginning
of social media. In two thousand and eight, I was
actually the first former elite gymnast to speak out about
the abuse that happens in gymnastics. I was twenty years
out of the sport and still suffering from the you know,
emotional and physical abuse, and I wrote a book about
(02:40):
it called Choked Up. And you would think now in hindsight,
that people would have wanted to know about that, but
that certainly was not the response I got. And I
was harassed and bullied by all the sport governing bodies,
which it.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Relates to what I'm going to tell you. Now.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
You know, these governing bodies they're not They are not
in it to protect the athletes. They never have been,
and they won't do the right thing unless their hand
is forced and I think we're seeing that now. And
you see the wide range of governing bodies, from the
US Olympic Committee to the individual sport governing bodies which
allow males to compete in women's sports, to the NCAA,
(03:20):
which has a really pathetic toothless policy in place. They
just won't they won't. They're they're sort of catering to
sponsors and sponsorship dollars, and you know, the loudest most,
the loudest bullies really, and the irony in this situation,
as far as you know women's sports is concerned, is
(03:42):
the loudest bullies are the minority, but they're effective bullies
and they keep the majority of the eighty percent silent.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And that's why I wanted to start.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
The brand, because you know, I have a long history
of brand building twenty three years at Levi's. I was
a former elite athlete who's been out spoken and about
the protection and empowerment and female athletes. And I looked
around with all the other brands who claim to protect
women and claim to champion women, but they do nothing
of the sort.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
They actually treat them with astonishing disregards.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So I figured, you know, I don't mind saying true
but controversial things. And I think a brand can help
make it cool to stand.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Up and protect women.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
So that's really my goal is to influence the culture,
because I think the legislation and the politics, you know,
are downstream from culture, but we've been losing the cultural battle.
So I want to contribute to turning that around.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So real quick, I want to set back to your
first entry into here, being a Glutton of punishment A
And you're talked up the autobiography because you also were
one of the producers of Athlete, a, a documentary on
about Larry Nasar, that that scandal at USA Gymnastics. It
won an Emmy for in twenty twenty four Outstanding Investigative Documentary.
(04:55):
But why would you be why would you get in
trouble for that?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Why is it second?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I mean, because this is a guy who was charged
with sexually assaulting at least two hundred and sixty five
young women and girls. This is someone who was sentenced
to sixty years in federal president This is someone who
pled guilty to possession of child pornography, who you know,
was then sentenced to an additional forty to one hundred
and seventy years in the Michigan Department of Corrections. I mean,
(05:20):
the list goes on. Yeah, this guy did to young
girls and women, So why the hell would that be
controversial for you stand out there, Well, you would.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Think that it wouldn't be Lisa. But this was two
thousand and eight. It was before the Me Too movement.
And to be clear, I didn't write about Nasar. I
didn't know Nassar. He started right when I was leaving
the sport as a quote unquote doctor for USA Gymnastics.
We overlapped by one year, but I never met him.
I wrote about the national team coach who took Team
(05:53):
USA to the Olympics in Los Angeles in nineteen eighty four,
who was a serial sexual creditor. He was a very
well respected coach. You weren't supposed to say these things.
And again I'm going to take you back. It was
before me Too. You weren't supposed to listen to women.
Certainly weren't supposed to listen to these little girls, which
you know, we were like little wind up, you know,
wind us up, go do the thing, keep your mouth shut,
(06:16):
be obedient.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know. Further, the party.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Line about USA Gymnastics being you know, this factory of
happy little pixie gymnasts.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You weren't supposed to talk about it, and I talked
about it.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And you know what the reason I did it was
because I was suffering. Twenty years later, I was almost
forty years old and I was still struggling. I was
this successful person, I was a mom too kids, successful
in the corporate arena, and yet the fact that I'd
endured this intense physical and emotional abuse for over ten
years in the sport, I struggled with anxiety, depression, very
(06:54):
low self esteem. And you know, I really wrote the
book not to be a whistleblower, but to try to
make sense of it for myself and to try to
expose the issue to protect other young girls doing the sport.
I didn't want them to have to go through what
I'd gone through. And it was a long haul because
right when I wrote the book, I mean, the wider community,
(07:16):
like regular people sort of read it and looked at
and said, yeah, that seems feasible that could be going
on in the sport. But the pr campaign against me
by the US Olympic Committee, USA Gymnastics, and you know,
my own teammates from both teams and.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
My private club.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
It's like, this is going to relate if we talk
about Simo. But you are you are You come up
in the sport to be seen and not heard. You
must be obedient. It's a it's a subjective sport. If
you if you are disobedient, you won't make the team,
You'll get kicked off. I you know, all of these
girls who grew up to become women, they were still
(07:52):
sort of seeking the.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Approval of their abusers, of their coaches, and.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
So I was, you know, threatening to expose the reality
of sport, and they didn't want any part of it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
But I think about this a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
If they had, If USA Gymnastics had investigated my claims
in the book, and I talked a lot about my
personal coaches who abused in plain sight on the competition floor,
if they had investigated those claims instead of villain I,
you know, villifying me, hundreds of victims would have been saved.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Over one hundred Naser victims would have been saved.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
But they were already covering up his abuse at that time.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And so that is one of the things I thought about.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I was like, they're going so hard after me, they
have something even bigger they're hiding. I didn't know it
was Naser, but I tell you the Donna Peters story.
He was the Olympic team coach I spoke about that
was that kind of rock the gymnastics world. He's now
banned from the sport.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I mean, he raked Olympic level athletes.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
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I s c J. Now did you get any apologies
when the NASAR stuff came out?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Now? What happened?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
And you know you don't find this sort of amusing
is a lot Well, first of all, you know a
lot of when when the NASA story was being broken,
it was really not well known athletes that were doing it.
It wasn't the simobiles and the alley raisements of the world,
and they were just dragged across the internet. I mean,
(10:36):
these young women.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I watched it. I'm fuld on social media.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I knew it was coming because I've been speaking with
the journalists who were breaking the story and they you know,
all the typical tropes you hear, the accusations of sexual
assault survivor. You know, she was a slut, it was
what what was she wearing? Kind of criticism. You know,
these are not reliable narrators, These are terrible women. She
(10:58):
wasn't a good gymnast, like all this stupid stuff. And
then within a week or two weeks there were fifty
credible claims and it kept growing, so then it became
too big to ignore. But a lot of the young
women who supported that you didn't even know who I
was from ten years earlier. But the ones who had
(11:19):
really tried to kind of take me down for saying
they just pretended overnight they'd always supported me. I mean,
it was just like total amnesia, no apologies.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
That kind of leads us too. Oh my god, Simone Biles,
I'm you know, need more coffee. But anyways kind of
gets to her, you know, with this latest attack against
Riley Gaines, who we all know and I know you know,
and she's been a part of your company as well
(11:52):
and protecting women's sports, and so she went after Riley
even made it personal, like basically said she looked like
a dude. Yeah, called her a bully for trying to
stand up for women, you know, so that basically we
should be standing up for these men and women's sports.
Why do you think she decided to attack Riley and like,
(12:13):
you know, why not protect women's sports.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Yeah, it's a conundrum. I gotta say, No one can
figure it out. She doesn't really post on Twitter much
and yet she went on his chair against Riley.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It's unusual.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
A lot of people are speculating it wasn't her, but
at this point she's not disavaliant. In fact, she's retweeted herself.
So I think she stands by it. You know, I
would go back to the mindset of a young gymnast,
which is that of an approval seeker. And I think
in her circles this you know, in ours, she got dragged,
(12:49):
but in her own circle, I think she's gotten tons
of you know, applause. If you look in you know,
gymnastics circles, people are cheering for her and they're hoping
she does me next. So, you know, I think it
was an approval seeking tactic, and I think she didn't
(13:09):
think about it much.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think it was impetuous and I.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Think she everyone she knows agrees with her, and so
she was probably surprised by the backlash.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I think what'sonic.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
There's several things ironic about it is, you know, she's
been this champion of body positivity and yet, as you mentioned,
she body shamed Riley for looking manly because she's muscular,
which is, you know, absurd. Who's more muscular than Amone Biles.
(13:42):
Riley is a totally normal sized woman for an actual woman.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
She's small as a swimmer. So that was just ridiculous
and mean spirited. I mean, the whole thing was me
and spirited, mean spirited.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
It's also at odds with the brand that she represents, Athleta,
whose tagline is the Power of She and all they
do is talk about empowering women and body positivity. So,
you know, direct conflict with Athleta.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
It just it's puzzling. She could have said nothing.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
But it also showed very little understanding of the conflict
within this you know movement, because she suggested that Riley
advocate for a third category the quote unquote trans advocates
the trans people. They don't want a third category. They've
rejected it. USA Swimming tried it, no one signed up.
(14:32):
They insist on being validated as actual women. They insist
on invading our sports in our spaces, So her recommendation
is actually considered quote unquote transphobic.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
By the activist class. So you know, her post also
showed that she doesn't.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Really know very much about this debate and this conflict,
which Riley obviously doesn't and I do as well. So
the whole thing was just it was like an unprovoked,
unforced error. She didn't need to say anything. I mean,
I wish she'd say something and she'd be on our side.
And you know, people have dug up all tweets at
this point showing that she does actually understand that men
(15:10):
and women are different.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And I know people in.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Her circle that know her who are scratching their heads
about this as well.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Is she tweet out pro I think it was like
twenty seventeen or something, some tweet about how like good
thing men don't play against us, we would lose our
you know, So it's like, clearly she's just like we'd
lose all over metal. So clearly, you know, she understands
that men and women are built differently. To your point,
and I get your point, and I think it's a
good one that maybe in her you know, immediate circle,
(15:38):
like it's a pat on the back, you know, like
you're so brave whatever, whatever. But that being said, bigger picture,
with the majority of Americans, they're with us on this issue.
And even if you look at liberal states like California,
there was a twenty twenty five pole by the non
partisan Public Policy Institute of California finding that found that
sixty five percent of likely Californy voters support requiring athletes
(16:03):
to compete based off of their biological sex rather than gender.
And this is a liberal state of California where sixty
five percent of voters agree with what we're talking about.
And obviously California has you know, been a point of
controversy with Aby Hernandez, a sixteen year old man competing
in track and field, the spark title my investigation by
(16:23):
the Department of Justice, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
But like she's going against an issue where even in
liberal states the majority of Americans are on her side.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
She is I doubt she knew that going in, Like
I said, she clearly was not well burst in the
issue and the sort of you know, the conflict and
the data, I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I don't think she knew any of it.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
She just it was a very impetuous thing to curry
favor with her fans, and she got it from her brands.
There's a lot of you know, go girl type clapping
from her fans. I just don't think she anticipated or
even knew that the vast majority of Americans agree with us.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
She had no idea. I don't think she's I mean,
I'm not.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Look, you grew up an athlete and you're training five, six,
seven hours a day.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
You're not reading the newspaper. I just don't think.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
She's probably well versed in the issue at all. She
clearly isn't, and I don't think she anticipated it.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It was it was a dumb move. And I will
say this one other thing.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I will say, though, despite the fact that eighty percent
of Americans agree with us, it's you know, close to
seventy percent of even Democrats, it doesn't feel like it
at least that when you're out here talking about it,
because the vast majority are still silent because of how
punitive the minority is and how bullying they are. And
you know, the other side kind of owns the legacy
media and they own the major institutions, and they own
the sport governing bodies and the universities.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And so it's easy to think.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
That our position is the minority position, and when it
is not. Because so many people don't say anything.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You've got to take a quick break. More at Jennifer
on the other side. One thing that frustrates me is like,
there's a danger here, right. We've already seen athletes get injured.
We just saw Peyton McNabb, who attended President Trump's joint
address to Congress, who suffered major injuries, injuries as a
(18:24):
volleyball player. We saw, you know, a Massachusetts player had
her teeth knocked out. A field hockey player had her
teeth knocked out. I mean, I played field hockey, lacrosse
in high school. You know, I was on the Olympic
development program for field hockey, and I mean I've been
hitting the hall the head before the field hockey bault.
One time it knocked me to my knees. That's how
hard I got hit. So I can't imagine at you know,
(18:45):
any sort of increased force at the hands of a man.
So I think one thing that frustrates me is like,
there's no not as much conversation about the danger and
putting men out there, you know, or even you look
at this Champlain Park, you know, winning the Minnesota State
High school softball championship with a male pitcher. I mean
(19:06):
like if he hit a woman, that's going to do
a lot more damage than if you get hit by
you know, another woman. So I mean, what do you
make about that in terms of just inherent danger that
this is presenting women?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
There's absolutely danger, not just in full uh you know,
in combat sports, which is ridiculous. You know, like we
saw at the Olympics over the summer with a monic leef.
You know, results of that sexcess thing have now been
made public. He is, in fact a man, as we
knew all along that he's not trans I understand that.
But the same issue as at play, and then a
(19:38):
male was competing on.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
The biggest stage.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
In sports, and so the championship the gold model from
a woman. That's incredibly dangerous obviously in a combat sport.
And then you have contact sports like what you're describing,
whether it's you know, volleyball, even soccer is high contact basketball,
it is incredibly danger Durissmen are bigger and stronger, and
I really am terrified that.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
What is going to end this or put us on
a different.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Path at least is a very serious injury to a woman. Now,
these injuries are brushed off, you know, they even brush
off Peyton's injury, which is a permanent.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Brain damage. I mean, she cannot participate in sports in college,
she has trouble with memory, she has all kinds of
cognitive challenges that she didn't have before the injury. But
of course they brush it off as well. Sports are dangerous.
They are dangerous, but we have.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
An obligation, the governing bodies have an obligation to make
them as safe as is possible because there is already
inherent danger. And I'll tell you a brief story. I
competed on the world stage. I was at World Championships
in nineteen eighty five and I broke my femur. And
there was a rule at the time that a coach
could not be on the podium when you know, quote
(20:55):
unquote spot an athlete, you know, in case if.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
They fell, et cetera. They changed the rule just days
after my injury.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Because you know, while I would have still fallen, I
wouldn't have had this devastating.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Injury, breaking my femur in half.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So it's the governing body's obligation to make the sports
as safe as is possible, and they're.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Not doing that.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
I don't understand why it's not more of a focus.
But I don't understand why more people aren't just standing
up and saying this is ridiculous. I mean, the fact
is the eighty percent stood up.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It would change now.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
The fact is if Nike said something and they Wade
and the biggest name in sports, bigger than the NFL
and the NBA, if they said, you know what, it's
not fair. Women deserve their own sports, it would be
over tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
You took on Nike in an ad with xxx Y
Dear Nike campaign. Why'd you decide to take on Nike?
And what was the reaction to that?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
That's been I think our most viral ad to date,
or at least the second most viral. The reason I
did is because I think they are the epitome of
woke capitalism. The hypocrisy, furthered by this brands is astonishing
to me. They pretend to champion women and empower female athletes,
and they treat them with such this regard and those
(22:09):
have been very public instances, and they treat their own female.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Employees with terrible disregard as well.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
There was a scandal about the way female executives have
been harassed.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
There was the Alison Felix scandal.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
And then the Mary Caine scandal, who was a young
runner in their running program who was abused mentally and
physically to the point of suicidality. And of course Alison Felix,
her contract was not renewed when when she became pregnant
and she was you know, world champion, Olympic champion runner.
So I just it just rankles me that they can
(22:43):
make money off of pretending to champion women while putting
Dylan mulvaney another instance, you know, in a running bra
a non athlete with no boobs.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
To market their products.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
They just they treat women terribly, and yet the public
seems to buy this idea that they empower women. And
I wanted to expose that and the response was fantastic.
I mean, I think we generated with no paid media,
close to twenty million views.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
That is amazing and obviously, you know, great attention to
your brand and then also more importantly to the broader
issue of protecting women's sports. Before we go, what do
you hope to accomplish with.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Your company? Well, it's two both.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I mean, I want to influence this conversation. I want
to make it cool to stand up and say men
and women are different, and women deserve their own sports
and spaces. I also want to empower female athletes. I
want us to be the only brand that actually does
it and doesn't just pretend to do it.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
But in order to be.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
An effective advocate, I need to be financially successful as well.
And I need to make amazing product and I need
people to want to wear it and buy it and
be part of that grassroots movement. So you know, I
want to empower female athletes and build a very successful,
profitable business.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Both of those things.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Well, it seems like you're on your way already, Jennifer Say.
It was great to run into you recently and also
just great to have you on the show. I appreciate
your time, appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Thank you so much, Lisa, thanks for having me those.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Jennifer Say, founder and president of xx x Y. We
appreciate it for coming on the show. Appreciate you guys
at home for listening. Every Tuesday and Thursday, but you
can listen throughout the week until next time.
Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we cut
through the noise to get to the heart of what
matters the biggest issues facing our country today. We've got
Jennifer Say on the show. She is president and founder
of xx x y Athletics. She's also a former Levi's executive.
We found her on the show before she found herself
in a little bit of hot water, speaking out against
lockdowns and school closures. Well, now she's entered the fray again.
(00:22):
She's become a leading voice in the fight for fairness
in women's sports. That's the emphasis, the whole basis of
her company, XXXY, to keep men out of women's sports.
We'll talk about our companies dear Nike campaign which went viral,
obviously calling out Nike for not protecting women's sports, and
of course, as her background as an elite gymnast, we'll
(00:42):
talk to her about Simone Biles, who decided to go
after Riley Gains. I'm sure you guys all saw that
Twitter exchange. She called Riley a bully. Even you know,
criticized Riley's appearance. So why the hell is Simone Biles
getting involved in this? Why isn't she protecting women's sports.
As Jennifer out that and then from Minnesota to California,
(01:02):
we're seeing blue states across the country at odds with
the Trump administration doubling down on men and women's sports.
I'll get her take on that and so much more.
So stay tuned for Jennifer Say, President and founder of
xx X Y Athletics.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, Jennifer Say, it's great to have you on.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I ran into you recently, which was great to see
you and see You're in my mind. So I was like,
I've got to get you on after the Simone Biles
and all this other stuff going on. So I was like,
I've got to have you on the show. So I
appreciate you making the time.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So, you know, Jennifer, I had you on previously when
we were talking about you know, you took a stand
during COVID about school closures and you ended up, you know,
put your job in jeopardy as an executive Levi Strauss
and Company. You've now entered the fray again on another
you know, controversial issue, which you know, really if you
think about either of these issues, they shouldn't be controversial. Yet,
(01:59):
you know, here we are as a society. But you
started a clothing company focused on men and women's sports
and keeping men out of women's sports. But we're basically
just preserving women's sports for women. Wh I get involved
in this fight, I'm.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
A glutton for punishment.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well we think, we think like so I respect it.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, And you know, you skipped my first sort of
internet flogging, which was long time ago, at the beginning
of social media. In two thousand and eight, I was
actually the first former elite gymnast to speak out about
the abuse that happens in gymnastics. I was twenty years
out of the sport and still suffering from the you know,
emotional and physical abuse, and I wrote a book about
(02:40):
it called Choked Up. And you would think now in hindsight,
that people would have wanted to know about that, but
that certainly was not the response I got. And I
was harassed and bullied by all the sport governing bodies,
which it.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Relates to what I'm going to tell you. Now.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
You know, these governing bodies they're not They are not
in it to protect the athletes. They never have been,
and they won't do the right thing unless their hand
is forced and I think we're seeing that now. And
you see the wide range of governing bodies, from the
US Olympic Committee to the individual sport governing bodies which
allow males to compete in women's sports, to the NCAA,
(03:20):
which has a really pathetic toothless policy in place. They
just won't they won't. They're they're sort of catering to
sponsors and sponsorship dollars, and you know, the loudest most,
the loudest bullies really, and the irony in this situation,
as far as you know women's sports is concerned, is
(03:42):
the loudest bullies are the minority, but they're effective bullies
and they keep the majority of the eighty percent silent.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And that's why I wanted to start.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
The brand, because you know, I have a long history
of brand building twenty three years at Levi's. I was
a former elite athlete who's been out spoken and about
the protection and empowerment and female athletes. And I looked
around with all the other brands who claim to protect
women and claim to champion women, but they do nothing
of the sort.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
They actually treat them with astonishing disregards.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So I figured, you know, I don't mind saying true
but controversial things. And I think a brand can help
make it cool to stand.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Up and protect women.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
So that's really my goal is to influence the culture,
because I think the legislation and the politics, you know,
are downstream from culture, but we've been losing the cultural battle.
So I want to contribute to turning that around.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So real quick, I want to set back to your
first entry into here, being a Glutton of punishment A
And you're talked up the autobiography because you also were
one of the producers of Athlete, a, a documentary on
about Larry Nasar, that that scandal at USA Gymnastics. It
won an Emmy for in twenty twenty four Outstanding Investigative Documentary.
(04:55):
But why would you be why would you get in
trouble for that?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Why is it second?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I mean, because this is a guy who was charged
with sexually assaulting at least two hundred and sixty five
young women and girls. This is someone who was sentenced
to sixty years in federal president This is someone who
pled guilty to possession of child pornography, who you know,
was then sentenced to an additional forty to one hundred
and seventy years in the Michigan Department of Corrections. I mean,
(05:20):
the list goes on. Yeah, this guy did to young
girls and women, So why the hell would that be
controversial for you stand out there, Well, you would.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Think that it wouldn't be Lisa. But this was two
thousand and eight. It was before the Me Too movement.
And to be clear, I didn't write about Nasar. I
didn't know Nassar. He started right when I was leaving
the sport as a quote unquote doctor for USA Gymnastics.
We overlapped by one year, but I never met him.
I wrote about the national team coach who took Team
(05:53):
USA to the Olympics in Los Angeles in nineteen eighty four,
who was a serial sexual creditor. He was a very
well respected coach. You weren't supposed to say these things.
And again I'm going to take you back. It was
before me Too. You weren't supposed to listen to women.
Certainly weren't supposed to listen to these little girls, which
you know, we were like little wind up, you know,
wind us up, go do the thing, keep your mouth shut,
(06:16):
be obedient.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know. Further, the party.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Line about USA Gymnastics being you know, this factory of
happy little pixie gymnasts.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You weren't supposed to talk about it, and I talked
about it.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And you know what the reason I did it was
because I was suffering. Twenty years later, I was almost
forty years old and I was still struggling. I was
this successful person, I was a mom too kids, successful
in the corporate arena, and yet the fact that I'd
endured this intense physical and emotional abuse for over ten
years in the sport, I struggled with anxiety, depression, very
(06:54):
low self esteem. And you know, I really wrote the
book not to be a whistleblower, but to try to
make sense of it for myself and to try to
expose the issue to protect other young girls doing the sport.
I didn't want them to have to go through what
I'd gone through. And it was a long haul because
right when I wrote the book, I mean, the wider community,
(07:16):
like regular people sort of read it and looked at
and said, yeah, that seems feasible that could be going
on in the sport. But the pr campaign against me
by the US Olympic Committee, USA Gymnastics, and you know,
my own teammates from both teams and.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
My private club.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
It's like, this is going to relate if we talk
about Simo. But you are you are You come up
in the sport to be seen and not heard. You
must be obedient. It's a it's a subjective sport. If
you if you are disobedient, you won't make the team,
You'll get kicked off. I you know, all of these
girls who grew up to become women, they were still
(07:52):
sort of seeking the.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Approval of their abusers, of their coaches, and.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
So I was, you know, threatening to expose the reality
of sport, and they didn't want any part of it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
But I think about this a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
If they had, If USA Gymnastics had investigated my claims
in the book, and I talked a lot about my
personal coaches who abused in plain sight on the competition floor,
if they had investigated those claims instead of villain I,
you know, villifying me, hundreds of victims would have been saved.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Over one hundred Naser victims would have been saved.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
But they were already covering up his abuse at that time.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And so that is one of the things I thought about.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I was like, they're going so hard after me, they
have something even bigger they're hiding. I didn't know it
was Naser, but I tell you the Donna Peters story.
He was the Olympic team coach I spoke about that
was that kind of rock the gymnastics world. He's now
banned from the sport.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I mean, he raked Olympic level athletes.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
We've got more with Jennifer, but first folks were saying
something truly disturbing. Anti Semitism is on the rise around
the world, and sadly right here in America, schools being targeted,
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Please don't wait be the difference? Is it I f
TJ dot org or called a eight four a eight
I s c J. Now did you get any apologies
when the NASAR stuff came out?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Now? What happened?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
And you know you don't find this sort of amusing
is a lot Well, first of all, you know a
lot of when when the NASA story was being broken,
it was really not well known athletes that were doing it.
It wasn't the simobiles and the alley raisements of the world,
and they were just dragged across the internet. I mean,
(10:36):
these young women.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I watched it. I'm fuld on social media.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I knew it was coming because I've been speaking with
the journalists who were breaking the story and they you know,
all the typical tropes you hear, the accusations of sexual
assault survivor. You know, she was a slut, it was
what what was she wearing? Kind of criticism. You know,
these are not reliable narrators, These are terrible women. She
(10:58):
wasn't a good gymnast, like all this stupid stuff. And
then within a week or two weeks there were fifty
credible claims and it kept growing, so then it became
too big to ignore. But a lot of the young
women who supported that you didn't even know who I
was from ten years earlier. But the ones who had
(11:19):
really tried to kind of take me down for saying
they just pretended overnight they'd always supported me. I mean,
it was just like total amnesia, no apologies.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
That kind of leads us too. Oh my god, Simone Biles,
I'm you know, need more coffee. But anyways kind of
gets to her, you know, with this latest attack against
Riley Gaines, who we all know and I know you know,
and she's been a part of your company as well
(11:52):
and protecting women's sports, and so she went after Riley
even made it personal, like basically said she looked like
a dude. Yeah, called her a bully for trying to
stand up for women, you know, so that basically we
should be standing up for these men and women's sports.
Why do you think she decided to attack Riley and like,
(12:13):
you know, why not protect women's sports.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Yeah, it's a conundrum. I gotta say, No one can
figure it out. She doesn't really post on Twitter much
and yet she went on his chair against Riley.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It's unusual.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
A lot of people are speculating it wasn't her, but
at this point she's not disavaliant. In fact, she's retweeted herself.
So I think she stands by it. You know, I
would go back to the mindset of a young gymnast,
which is that of an approval seeker. And I think
in her circles this you know, in ours, she got dragged,
(12:49):
but in her own circle, I think she's gotten tons
of you know, applause. If you look in you know,
gymnastics circles, people are cheering for her and they're hoping
she does me next. So, you know, I think it
was an approval seeking tactic, and I think she didn't
(13:09):
think about it much.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think it was impetuous and I.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Think she everyone she knows agrees with her, and so
she was probably surprised by the backlash.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I think what'sonic.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
There's several things ironic about it is, you know, she's
been this champion of body positivity and yet, as you mentioned,
she body shamed Riley for looking manly because she's muscular,
which is, you know, absurd. Who's more muscular than Amone Biles.
(13:42):
Riley is a totally normal sized woman for an actual woman.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
She's small as a swimmer. So that was just ridiculous
and mean spirited. I mean, the whole thing was me
and spirited, mean spirited.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
It's also at odds with the brand that she represents, Athleta,
whose tagline is the Power of She and all they
do is talk about empowering women and body positivity. So,
you know, direct conflict with Athleta.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
It just it's puzzling. She could have said nothing.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
But it also showed very little understanding of the conflict
within this you know movement, because she suggested that Riley
advocate for a third category the quote unquote trans advocates
the trans people. They don't want a third category. They've
rejected it. USA Swimming tried it, no one signed up.
(14:32):
They insist on being validated as actual women. They insist
on invading our sports in our spaces, So her recommendation
is actually considered quote unquote transphobic.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
By the activist class. So you know, her post also
showed that she doesn't.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Really know very much about this debate and this conflict,
which Riley obviously doesn't and I do as well. So
the whole thing was just it was like an unprovoked,
unforced error. She didn't need to say anything. I mean,
I wish she'd say something and she'd be on our side.
And you know, people have dug up all tweets at
this point showing that she does actually understand that men
(15:10):
and women are different.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And I know people in.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Her circle that know her who are scratching their heads
about this as well.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Is she tweet out pro I think it was like
twenty seventeen or something, some tweet about how like good
thing men don't play against us, we would lose our
you know, So it's like, clearly she's just like we'd
lose all over metal. So clearly, you know, she understands
that men and women are built differently. To your point,
and I get your point, and I think it's a
good one that maybe in her you know, immediate circle,
(15:38):
like it's a pat on the back, you know, like
you're so brave whatever, whatever. But that being said, bigger picture,
with the majority of Americans, they're with us on this issue.
And even if you look at liberal states like California,
there was a twenty twenty five pole by the non
partisan Public Policy Institute of California finding that found that
sixty five percent of likely Californy voters support requiring athletes
(16:03):
to compete based off of their biological sex rather than gender.
And this is a liberal state of California where sixty
five percent of voters agree with what we're talking about.
And obviously California has you know, been a point of
controversy with Aby Hernandez, a sixteen year old man competing
in track and field, the spark title my investigation by
(16:23):
the Department of Justice, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
But like she's going against an issue where even in
liberal states the majority of Americans are on her side.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
She is I doubt she knew that going in, Like
I said, she clearly was not well burst in the
issue and the sort of you know, the conflict and
the data, I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I don't think she knew any of it.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
She just it was a very impetuous thing to curry
favor with her fans, and she got it from her brands.
There's a lot of you know, go girl type clapping
from her fans. I just don't think she anticipated or
even knew that the vast majority of Americans agree with us.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
She had no idea. I don't think she's I mean,
I'm not.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Look, you grew up an athlete and you're training five, six,
seven hours a day.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
You're not reading the newspaper. I just don't think.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
She's probably well versed in the issue at all. She
clearly isn't, and I don't think she anticipated it.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It was it was a dumb move. And I will
say this one other thing.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I will say, though, despite the fact that eighty percent
of Americans agree with us, it's you know, close to
seventy percent of even Democrats, it doesn't feel like it
at least that when you're out here talking about it,
because the vast majority are still silent because of how
punitive the minority is and how bullying they are. And
you know, the other side kind of owns the legacy
media and they own the major institutions, and they own
the sport governing bodies and the universities.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And so it's easy to think.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
That our position is the minority position, and when it
is not. Because so many people don't say anything.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You've got to take a quick break. More at Jennifer
on the other side. One thing that frustrates me is like,
there's a danger here, right. We've already seen athletes get injured.
We just saw Peyton McNabb, who attended President Trump's joint
address to Congress, who suffered major injuries, injuries as a
(18:24):
volleyball player. We saw, you know, a Massachusetts player had
her teeth knocked out. A field hockey player had her
teeth knocked out. I mean, I played field hockey, lacrosse
in high school. You know, I was on the Olympic
development program for field hockey, and I mean I've been
hitting the hall the head before the field hockey bault.
One time it knocked me to my knees. That's how
hard I got hit. So I can't imagine at you know,
(18:45):
any sort of increased force at the hands of a man.
So I think one thing that frustrates me is like,
there's no not as much conversation about the danger and
putting men out there, you know, or even you look
at this Champlain Park, you know, winning the Minnesota State
High school softball championship with a male pitcher. I mean
(19:06):
like if he hit a woman, that's going to do
a lot more damage than if you get hit by
you know, another woman. So I mean, what do you
make about that in terms of just inherent danger that
this is presenting women?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
There's absolutely danger, not just in full uh you know,
in combat sports, which is ridiculous. You know, like we
saw at the Olympics over the summer with a monic leef.
You know, results of that sexcess thing have now been
made public. He is, in fact a man, as we
knew all along that he's not trans I understand that.
But the same issue as at play, and then a
(19:38):
male was competing on.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
The biggest stage.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
In sports, and so the championship the gold model from
a woman. That's incredibly dangerous obviously in a combat sport.
And then you have contact sports like what you're describing,
whether it's you know, volleyball, even soccer is high contact basketball,
it is incredibly danger Durissmen are bigger and stronger, and
I really am terrified that.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
What is going to end this or put us on
a different.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Path at least is a very serious injury to a woman. Now,
these injuries are brushed off, you know, they even brush
off Peyton's injury, which is a permanent.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Brain damage. I mean, she cannot participate in sports in college,
she has trouble with memory, she has all kinds of
cognitive challenges that she didn't have before the injury. But
of course they brush it off as well. Sports are dangerous.
They are dangerous, but we have.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
An obligation, the governing bodies have an obligation to make
them as safe as is possible because there is already
inherent danger. And I'll tell you a brief story. I
competed on the world stage. I was at World Championships
in nineteen eighty five and I broke my femur. And
there was a rule at the time that a coach
could not be on the podium when you know, quote
(20:55):
unquote spot an athlete, you know, in case if.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
They fell, et cetera. They changed the rule just days
after my injury.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Because you know, while I would have still fallen, I
wouldn't have had this devastating.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Injury, breaking my femur in half.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So it's the governing body's obligation to make the sports
as safe as is possible, and they're.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Not doing that.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
I don't understand why it's not more of a focus.
But I don't understand why more people aren't just standing
up and saying this is ridiculous. I mean, the fact
is the eighty percent stood up.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It would change now.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
The fact is if Nike said something and they Wade
and the biggest name in sports, bigger than the NFL
and the NBA, if they said, you know what, it's
not fair. Women deserve their own sports, it would be
over tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
You took on Nike in an ad with xxx Y
Dear Nike campaign. Why'd you decide to take on Nike?
And what was the reaction to that?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
That's been I think our most viral ad to date,
or at least the second most viral. The reason I
did is because I think they are the epitome of
woke capitalism. The hypocrisy, furthered by this brands is astonishing
to me. They pretend to champion women and empower female athletes,
and they treat them with such this regard and those
(22:09):
have been very public instances, and they treat their own female.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Employees with terrible disregard as well.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
There was a scandal about the way female executives have
been harassed.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
There was the Alison Felix scandal.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
And then the Mary Caine scandal, who was a young
runner in their running program who was abused mentally and
physically to the point of suicidality. And of course Alison Felix,
her contract was not renewed when when she became pregnant
and she was you know, world champion, Olympic champion runner.
So I just it just rankles me that they can
(22:43):
make money off of pretending to champion women while putting
Dylan mulvaney another instance, you know, in a running bra
a non athlete with no boobs.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
To market their products.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
They just they treat women terribly, and yet the public
seems to buy this idea that they empower women. And
I wanted to expose that and the response was fantastic.
I mean, I think we generated with no paid media,
close to twenty million views.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
That is amazing and obviously, you know, great attention to
your brand and then also more importantly to the broader
issue of protecting women's sports. Before we go, what do
you hope to accomplish with.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Your company? Well, it's two both.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I mean, I want to influence this conversation. I want
to make it cool to stand up and say men
and women are different, and women deserve their own sports
and spaces. I also want to empower female athletes. I
want us to be the only brand that actually does
it and doesn't just pretend to do it.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
But in order to be.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
An effective advocate, I need to be financially successful as well.
And I need to make amazing product and I need
people to want to wear it and buy it and
be part of that grassroots movement. So you know, I
want to empower female athletes and build a very successful,
profitable business.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Both of those things.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Well, it seems like you're on your way already, Jennifer Say.
It was great to run into you recently and also
just great to have you on the show. I appreciate
your time, appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Thank you so much, Lisa, thanks for having me those.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Jennifer Say, founder and president of xx x Y. We
appreciate it for coming on the show. Appreciate you guys
at home for listening. Every Tuesday and Thursday, but you
can listen throughout the week until next time.
Host
Lisa Boothe
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