Follow Your Instincts in Life, Business, and Romantic Partnerships ft. Samantha Abrams

Samantha Spills:

• How she grew their homemade cookie company into a multimillion-dollar company without investors or raising outside money 
• Why their unique approach to “profits” allowed them to build a business from their heart
• Value Clarification: how staying close to your values can help you build your unique business
• Why they eventually sold to the largest bakery business in the world, the pleasant surprises that came with it, and how they retain control over the product and its manufacturing
• Burnout: her physical symptoms and path to healing her mind, physical body, and soul
• How to end a romantic partnership when you still have a lot of love for the partner 

Follow Samantha: @samanthaabrams_

Check out her website:https://www.samanthaabrams.com/

follow Emmy's: @emmysorganics

Check out their website: https://emmysorganics.com/pages/welcome-offer for a welcome offer.

The Truthiest Life on Instagram @thetruthiestlife

Host @lisahayim

 

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Edited by Houston Tilley

Intro Jingle by Alyssa Chase aka @findyoursails

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
A no.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Even when times getheard and feel your cu see just
how beautiful life can be. When you safen your heart,
you can finally start to live your tu sious life.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to The Truth Is Life.
It's your host Lisa Haim and I'm very excited to
bring you this episode with a longtime friend of mine,
Samantha Abrams. Samantha is the co founder of the amazing
cookie company Emmy's Organics. You are probably quite familiar with them,
and if not, you've probably walked by them in the
grocery store a million times and never noticed. But what

(00:53):
you might not know is that this special company started
in their kitchen and grew into a multimillion dollar company
without investors or raising outside money. Samantha is somebody who
lives her life from the heart and how she runs
her business is no different, and she really shares in
this episode how to keep your values close to you

(01:16):
while growing a profiting business that takes care of the
people that make it happen. In this episode, she shares
about selling a big portion to the largest bakery business
in the world and the pleasant surprises that came with it.
You do not hear about that a lot. A lot
of times when businesses sell, companies really change. But Samantha

(01:39):
is here to say that this has been an incredible
experience and why she thinks that it is moving into
her personal life. She also shares about burnout and the
physical symptoms and healing journey that she's been on the
last couple of years. And I can testify that this
woman has really done the work and it shines through

(02:01):
everything that she does and that she says. I said
this a couple episodes ago, but you can really tell
when somebody's deeply embodied and comfortable in their own skin,
and you definitely get that with Samantha. And best of all,
it's a little bit contagious, so stay close. And I
think my favorite part of this episode, not that it's
my favorite thing that happened, but the part of this

(02:22):
episode that I find really inspiring and thought leadery is
the recent end of her romantic partnership with her business
partner as well and how they have navigated it and
remained life partners and friends. I think a lot of
times when we break up with somebody, we have that
cold turkey and we grieve and we miss them a lot,

(02:44):
and watching them navigate moving away from being a romantic
partnership and turning it into a friendship where they still
communicate all of the time and they still work together,
they keep the love even though the romance piece has
been removed. Is really just like not something we've ever
seen before in our lives. And I think that it's

(03:07):
something brave, it's something bold, and who knows what the
future holds for the two of them. But a lot
of the times when we are in partnerships for a
long time, we become and meshed, we become one, We
lose ourselves, and sometimes stepping back away is kind of
the only way life is that windy journey of losing
yourself finding yourself, and sometimes that means making decisions that

(03:28):
the world doesn't quite understand. Samantha says it much more
beautifully than I do, so I will allow her to
do so in the episode. Anyway, before we jump in,
I just wanted to share something that I'm going to
be working on tonight into tomorrow and how I work
through fear. Many of you know that I've been teaching
yoga for the past two years, sporadically, mostly just learning

(03:50):
and sinking my teeth into it and occasionally teaching. And
when I do teach, I put a lot into every class.
It's not something I jump out of bed and can
lead a class. I put a lot of thought into it.
And normally I prep for like a week before I
do a class because I want it to be good,
because I want to make sense, and because yeah, that's

(04:11):
just what my process looks like right now. That being said,
I do want to teach more, and I know everybody
gives the advice that the only way to teach more
and become a better teacher is to do it more often. Nonetheless,
fear gets in my way, excuses get in my way.
But tomorrow somebody asked me to teach a private group,

(04:33):
and so with less than twenty four hours notice, I'm
going to be teaching, which doesn't make me fearful. It's
a little bit thrilling, and it comes from this place
of knowing I can do it. I just need the push.
And when she asked me to do it, at first
I came up with a couple of reasons no, and
then I just said yes. And you know, I'm a
big advocate for saying no when things are wrong and

(04:54):
not people pleasing not saying yes and then always figuring
it out. There is such a place for no, but
there's also such a place for yes, and I am
saying yes to it. So that is what I'm going
to be doing tomorrow morning, and I'm so excited. I'll
also share that, like teaching yoga, I think I've said
this before, is the least financially profitable thing that I

(05:17):
can do for my time per hour, no matter how
you slice it. But hopefully you can hear the enjoyment
or the excitement in my voice when I talk about it.
And that's why it's important to follow the heart, not
the money, because the money won't give you the joy
and the smile, where oftentimes the things that are the
most lucrative doal So figuring out that balance, aren't we all? Okay?

(05:40):
I just wanted to share that with you in case
you need to say yes to something that you're fearful
of and know that you are capable of sending lots
and lots of love, love, love, love, love and light.
And I'll see you back here next week. Hello, Samantha.
I'm so excited to be with you right here, right now,
on this perfect day.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Oh my god, I'm so happy to be here with you.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
I think that the timing of us sitting down is
actually perfect in the sense that, first all, we were
supposed to record a couple months ago, and since then,
so much has happened for us together, and also you personally,
even just recently, you did like a May recap post
on your Instagram, and it was like super inspiring about

(06:26):
you really leaning into I'm gonna butcher the language, but
you really leaning into the here and the now and
stepping away from the shoulds and shouldn't. Yeah, and each
picture that you posted or video of you dancing like
I felt the freedom and the embodiment of that sentiment
and it was awesome.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
We got to spend May together. Samantha came on the
mead treat we did, So how was your meat treat experience,
Let's just start there.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
It was amazing, Like it felt like this great adventure
that I got to share with all of these people
that I am still in touch with, you know, And
I think all the unexpected turns just really allowed us
to connect as a group on this level that I
don't know if we would have if that hadn't happened,

(07:17):
you know, with the volcano. I absolutely loved Guatemala. I
loved the opportunity to go there. Just a beautiful country
and culture. So it was so wonderful to go somewhere
new and then to be able to do all of
these things that I love, you know, like the somatic
breath work and the fire circle that we did and

(07:39):
the sound bath. Like. I loved witnessing how you curated
this experience and even with all the changes, like, it
was really beautiful, and I loved connecting to all of
these women, and especially for me just in this season,
like I feel like I'm a new version of myself,
and so to be this version of me with all
these new people fell really good. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
I felt very inspired witnessing your me Treat journey, Like,
even though it was just a couple of days together,
I got to really witness you show up many times
as a leader, which is very natural to you, but
also something you've been practicing as a business owner and
business creator, business builder you know, more than just business owner,
you built your company from the ground up. And then

(08:24):
there was also this very introspective for lack of a
better word, I'm going to say, like I think it
comes with a negative connotation, but I don't mean it
in that way selfish, self centered. There were times that
you were treated back and you focused on like just yourself. Again,
I don't think those those words have a negative charge
to them because of how we view self here. But

(08:45):
anytime you pulled back like it was beautiful because I
think it also gave other people. It was a very
like group dynamic the way it ended up playing out,
But you were like, I need my time to self,
and you'd take it and then you'd come back and
you kind of had this like look in your eye
of like deep transformation like or recharging.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah. I think, especially in group settings, I've really learned
that I need to have that time for myself. And
there were times when I would just go like lay
down in my room by myself because I just like
need that space. And for me to have that autonomy
now of like I know what I need and I'm
going to go do it, it's really refreshing for me.

(09:24):
I'm like really proud of myself because in the past,
like if I'd gone on the metree like five years ago,
like I would have been like there for everything, like
wanting to just I don't know make the most out
of all the connections and all the things, or just
trying to get something out of it instead of just
allowing me to have an experience and take care of myself.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
I think you kind of just said that beautifully, and
it seems like you've really surrendered to life in many ways,
and as a result, you've kind of become a vehicle
for things to move through you. I picture you like
a straw, and things are going like out the bottom
and coming out the top, or coming in the top
and out the bottom, like like the energy of your

(10:07):
body feels very open vesseled. I know that's weird, but
that's just how I'm picture you. Like a pool noodle.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
You know, I feel like a noodle, but more.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
Eco conscience conscious and not made a foam.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
You know, totally totally.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
But my question is, I guess, just you know, for
anybody that's like ooh, that sounds freeing, liberating and fun,
everybody wants to play with the pool noodle. Were you
always so fluid?

Speaker 1 (10:34):
No, I've had to work through a lot and put
a lot of practice into place in my life to
be able to allow life to move through me and
for me to even you know, feel my feelings and
let my feelings move through my body. That's taken a
lot of work because that is not the way I
was raised and not my kind of status quo. Even

(10:57):
like three and a half years ago is kind of
when my journey started. I guess, so no, I was.
I was very controlling just about everything, my environments around me,
the work, you know, all my self worth was in
everything outside of myself, and so I was very constricted.

(11:18):
It's like I knew it, but really it was my
burnout in twenty nineteen me like crashing and burning, like
my body actually not functioning correctly. That that was my
wake up call. And so that's really what kind of
started this journey for me of listening allowing which it's
so easy to say this now, but I would have

(11:41):
I would like, you know, even the year ago, I
feel like I wouldn't even have had that language. It
really has taken a lot of practice and continues to
I mean, Okay.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
So this conversation, I feel I could veer in many directions,
and I wanted to go in two distinct directions that
I want to explore that I'm curious about. But because
you're kind of talking about burnout. I think it makes
the most sense to really focus on the metaphorical baby
that you've birthed into the world a bunch of years ago.

(12:11):
And yeah, your company really us. Talk a little bit
about your company when you started it, how you started it,
why you started it, and the evolution of it over
the last I think decade.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Okay, So I met my partner, former life partner, current friend,
and business partner Ian in two thousand and nine, and
we just had this instant, beautiful connection. And one of
the things that really brought us together was this love
of healthy foods. And he has a lot of dietary

(12:41):
restrictions and can't do a lot of irritants like gluten, dairy, soy,
and lots of other things. And so he had created
this coconut cookie recipe out of a need for himself,
and he taught me how to make it one night
and we were both like, wow, these are really good.
And this is two thousand nine. This is before the

(13:02):
gluten free section at Whole Food that's you know, two
aisles long, and so there just weren't options like that.
A lot of the gluten free foods back then had
a lot of fillers and just extra ingredients in them,
and they didn't taste good. And so he taught me
this recipe and we were like, wow, this is great,
and then we decided to get a home processor's license

(13:25):
and start making this recipe in his mom's home kitchen.
And her nickname is Emmy, so that's where Emmy's comes from.
The brand is Emmy's Organics. And we had no business experience.
Ian had done some work with food companies, so he'd
done some like not really manufacturing, but he had worked

(13:45):
in some larger scale restaurants and he worked at Organic
Avenue in New York City back in the day, yeah throwback,
and so he had a little bit of food experience,
but nothing around the business. And so we, yeah, we
got the home process or license and just started going
kind of door to door. Became Ithaca Farmers Market Vendors.

(14:08):
We did that for three years and just kind of
started this business because we wanted to if there was
no strategy, no business plan, no money that we put
into it. Like Ian had some savings that we used
to buy bulk ingredients at our local co op, and
that's how we started. And then you know, over the years,

(14:30):
we just kept going and started going door to door
in other areas, and we started going door to door
in New York City, which the timing was really wonderful
because people were starting to look for more gluten free products.
That was not strategic on our part. It was just
very lucky, I think, but especially you know, our goal
is always to have to create products that have very

(14:52):
minimal ingredient lists, all of which you can pronounce. And
I think that's what really set us apart at that time.
You know, now there's a lot of amazing products on
the market that have really you know, simple ingredients, but
we were quite early, I think, and it was awesome,
you know, and so we had other jobs. When we

(15:12):
first started, we were really just doing it for fun,
and then things just really started to take off, and
then we just kept kind of learning and growing, making mistakes.
We always manufactured our products in house, and we still
do today, which is very rare in our industry. And yeah,
we started working with like small distributors and then we
kind of figured out how to get into one region

(15:33):
of whole foods market, and after that it was like,
how do we get into another? And you know, we
started learning about brokers. Eventually we started going to trade shows,
which I think was really great, even though they're very
expensive to be at. It just allows you to connect
with other people doing what you're doing and with people
like you, which is how we me and Lisa met.

(15:55):
And I was actually reflecting on this yesterday. Just in
those early days. It was actually quite lonely starting a
business in my early twenties, because I really just graduated
from college and you know, just most of my friends
were doing other things, and so there weren't a lot
of people for me to like share this experience with.
Luckily I had Ian, and I know, I mean there's

(16:17):
a lot of solopreneurs out there who start businesses and
that I really just feel for how that loneliness that's there.
You know, Ian and I have this ability to just
make things happen. We both do in different ways, but
we were just so committed and we just brigain did it.

(16:38):
It's so wild. I think being young and like not
knowing anything about the industry was helpful because we were
so naive, you know, we just kind of went for it,
asked big favors, asked people for advice that maybe we
shouldn't have asked for advice, and I mean that's the
very abridged version. But eventually we did grow the company

(16:59):
to become a new Wide brand, and that's, you know,
what we've always wanted.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
I mean, it's just incredible because when we met. The
quick story of US is I was an early adopter
let's call it to quote unquote healthy foods. I wouldn't
call it that, but you know, I was shopping in
Whole Foods before you know it was Whole Foods. I
was drinking kombucha before you know, I was into the
raw stuff. I know it organic, av was you know,
I was in that early time when it wasn't. It

(17:24):
was just transitioning out of being like just crunchy to
consume these foods, and people were starting to see, oh,
I actually feel better when I eat this way. Anyway,
long story short, I needed an internship and I think
Instagram had just come out and I don't even think
there were dms, and I know it was an Instagram.
I went to your website and I emailed like I
would love to be an intern for you. Had no

(17:46):
idea who I was emailing, but I knew this cookie
well because it was one of the few options available
at Whole foods, and like you said, it stood out
and it tasted good. Anyway, they declined me the internship,
which was fine. But in those early years, I was
still going to the trade shows, and it was before
the word influencer existed, and nobody really knew about this.
But I had worked for another healthy food company at

(18:07):
that show the year before, so I decided to attend
the year after. And when I saw Samantha, I ran
up to say hi and introduced myself, and you hugged
me in such a way that can be felt, like
you have such a healing presence. I remember Evan being like, wow,
who's that woman?

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Girl.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
It was a long time ago, so he probably said, girl,
she's so nice. But you know when people hug you
and they leave like an imprint on your body, you know, energetically.
It was like that, And as the years turned on,
we stayed in touch, and I even visited your Ithaca factory,
which was so cool. Like I think that everybody should

(18:44):
have obviously more connection to their food, even your packaged food,
like we should see them, not necessarily how it's made,
but the people that are making it, and not necessarily
you and Ian, which are wonderful but the actual people
in your facility and stood out obviously to me and
Abby who I came with, was it was like a
family in there. You know, it wasn't like you're the

(19:06):
boss and they're the workers. Like you could tell they
were happy employees and that the business, which was not
just doing well, was healthy inside, not toxic and probably
if you know, I know you had big goals, like
you said going national. Was profit always the main goal
for you? Or how did you stay in line with

(19:29):
your heart while also being profitable and ultimately selling a
portion I believe of your business? How did you stay
in line with your heart while also being profitable and
ultimately selling a portion I believe of your business.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
That's such a good question, and I'd say that obviously
going through the motions over the years, that wasn't my terminology,
you know, staying connected to my heart. But I really
believe that we did. And I think that well one,
being in Ithaca and not around a lot of the
industry and other food companies really just allowed us to

(20:11):
do things our own way. And I really believe that
both me and Ian we really followed our instincts along
the way with this business, and a lot of that.
In the beginning, without having a lot of business experience,
we just thought, oh, you grow a business by making
more money than you spend, right, which is called profitability.

(20:32):
But most businesses in our industry are trying to grow
as fast as possible, so they're getting a lot of
funding in the beginning very early and just trying to
grow really fast, and so they're not necessarily thinking about profitability.
They just want to grow and there's nothing wrong with that.
I think very experienced entrepreneurs who've done this before like

(20:54):
that is a there's no one way to grow a business,
so that just saying that. But for us, that was
just the way that we knew to grow and so
that allowed us to not have to raise money early
on because we did focus on profitability, and that really

(21:14):
meant we had a healthy business. And when it was
time for us to start purchasing equipment and building out
a real facility, we ended up going to our local
bank to do loans and lines of credit, and that
is also quite alternative these days, and so that allowed
us to not give away any of the company, you know,

(21:35):
and we didn't for like twelve years. So that's what
felt right to us and so we did that. That
meant we were in control. And as far as staying
connected to my heart again, we just booth meeting and
have personal values that we just brought into the business naturally,
you know. We when we started having like a staff,
it was just a main goal, major goal of ours.

(21:57):
To become living wage certified was just like, that's what's fair.
People need to be making a living wage at a minimum.
It's not how we started, but we wanted to get
there as soon as possible, and so we did. We
had this one woman, her name was Da and she
came to work for us through a Youth Employment Service
program and she was a refugee from Burma which is

(22:19):
now called Myanmar, and she had been working at night
nights at Subway I think before coming to work for us.
And she was such an enthusiastic, amazing worker. We were
just amazed by this woman and anytime she said, anytime
you guys have an opening, I know someone, I have

(22:39):
a neighbor, I have a cousin. And from that experience,
we were able to tap into this beautiful refugee community
that exists in Ithaca that we didn't know about. So
this was not like we started a business to hire refugees.
But in just like listening and being with our people,
we were able to find this amazing community and so

(23:01):
over the years, our entire manufacturing staff eventually became permeused refugees.
And because of that, you know, we wanted to make
everything very accessible for them, and so any printed materials
we would pay to have translated into their dialect. When
we had meetings, we would ask if someone could be
We we actually paid someone to be a translator at

(23:21):
our meetings and we still do this today. All the
signage in our facility has both English and correct, which
is their dialect. And we became just a part of
their community. We went to weddings, we've been to funerals,
We've seen babies born. It just became a really special
part of our story. And it was just like listening

(23:42):
and doing what was right. It didn't feel like, oh,
we need to like be a heart centered organization, you know.
It just we just kind of did what felt right.
And I think we made a lot of great decisions
doing that. Not to say we haven't made tons of mistakes,
but I think a lot of good things came from that.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Really beautiful and natural for lack of a better word,
unperformative story. You know nobody. It wasn't something that I
had even I'm not sure if I had learned this previously,
but I had forgotten. It's not blasted on all of
your materials, although it's fine, you know if it is,
because it might inspire somebody else to do so. But
just learning like the natural progression of how your business

(24:21):
operates is just really wonderful, and I think a testament
to who you and Ian both are. I think what
is really interesting is like a new business with this
strategy right probably wouldn't work in today's market. I would
probably go the same route as you, as somebody who's

(24:42):
more interested in the product than the business side of it.
But I think that you stand out because the strategy
in place was not let's grow grow, grow as fast
as possible. Let's not slap gluten free on here because
that's what people like like it. It was like listening

(25:02):
to the consumer. But maybe the fact that, like Ian
was the key consumer that you wanted to help heal
like that kept you grounded because I personally feel very
offended by products that like you can just tell or
just use it in like trendy marketing language and sort
of praying on people, like you know, guilt free cookies

(25:24):
type of a thing. And it's fine to like use
that language maybe in passing, but like when it becomes
your cornerstone, it's like, but there's so much more to
this cookie, right, Like let's educate people on cocaonat, let's
educate people on chia seeds and like all these ingredients
rather than just like eat this and you know, just
not really providing like the education. I'm so like offended

(25:48):
by new companies that are clearly trying to make it
big so fast and they don't have the heart in it.
But anyway, you mentioned the word mistakes, and is there
like one mistake that you would maybe share here of
something that you would do differently in the early days.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
I mean, yes, there's so many things I could go
with right now, but we've you know, like purchased equipment
from a company that basically disappeared and like couldn't support us,
and the machine just we couldn't even use it. I'd say,
when you do have a staff of people, like I
think it took us some time to really have our
employee manual in place and processes. But you know, we

(26:28):
learned just employees. I hate takeing employees sometimes team members,
you know, they want to be taken care of, and
so having you know, some structure and policies in place
is really supportive for you know, creating a safe environment.
And so you know, we did it, but it was
just felt kind of informal in the beginning. But we
did eventually, you know, start having a manual and having

(26:49):
meetings and going over it and having people find things
and so, yes, there's been so many mistakes though I
am like, I don't even know where to begin.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
Well, I'm sure there's also many sleepless nights, like I
called this a baby in the beginning.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Right, yeah, and those growth spurts, you know, you just
you don't have the people, you know for a long time.
It was like me, Ian and two other people, you
know in the beginning, and so if we had a
big order that we weren't expecting, it's like we were
there all night. We didn't have our staff stay all night,
but me and Ian we would. There's so many like
hilarious nights of us just making products, like late into

(27:26):
the night or like coming home and packet you know,
labeling bags or whatever.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
Before the blast off, which in my mind is like Starbucks. Like,
once I saw you in Starbucks, I was like, okay,
that was major, right, Yeah, Once I saw you in Starbucks,
I was like, Okay, there there's no going down from
Starbucks because you have gotten so many eyes on your product.
That brand visibility that you were talking about is just
so key. Prior to that moment, even in the early

(27:51):
early days or maybe leading up, were there people in
your lives, friends or family that were not encouraging you
to continue because they didn't understand what you were doing.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
I'd say, luckily, no one was encouraging us not to continue,
but a lot of people didn't understand that. Yeah, I
mean especially Yeah, I remember my dad and my stepmom.
They like thought I was nuts, you know, to start
a business with a guy that we didn't even happen
to this far, Like I met Ian and then like

(28:22):
four months later we started his business together. So that alone,
you know, was wild, and yeah, it was very new.
The type of product, the type of industry you know,
that just no one knew about, including us, And so luckily,
I'd say, well, Ian's mom has always been such a
cheerleader for us, and she's just like that as a parent,

(28:44):
which is really cool to see. And so so I'd
say his family in general is like super supportive and
would come and help us paint new facilities or like
put flooring down and come help package when we were
really tight, you know. So we did have some very
supportive family and then definitely people who are like what
are you doing?

Speaker 3 (29:02):
It can be hard when people don't get it and
you're constantly explaining and they're not like, wow, such a
good idea, Like everybody wants this right, Like being in
that early stage is like wait what. So it's cool
that you persevered and continued with it even though you
know the world wasn't necessarily understanding it at the time.
I think it just speaks to anything that you want
to create and not having all yeses and still moving

(29:24):
forward with it if you're feeling, you know, that passion
and fire from within. So fast forward about eight years
and you're experiencing feelings of burnout. So, first of all,
what was that feeling like for you? Because you said
it was physical.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Something started not feeling right in my body, and I
wouldn't have been able to even say that language at
the time. But I guess the biggest symptom for me
with my burnout, and I think it shows up differently
for everyone, is that I had chronic insomnia for many,
many months where I was up in the middle of
the night for three to four hours every night, and

(30:00):
it became unbearable. It wasn't just like you don't have
a good bedtime routine, you know. I was doing all
the things. I was like trying to meditate, read before bed,
all the things, and nothing was working. And I also
was in a very busy season of life. It wasn't
just about business. And I did not burn myself out
because I'm entrepreneur. I burned myself out because I didn't

(30:23):
know how to listen to my body and I was
putting all of myself worth outside of myself and so
I said yes to every social function. And I was
also traveling a lot for work. I remember there's one
summer where I had two or three girlfriends getting married,
so there was like bachelorette parties, there were you know
events up the wazoo. Summer in Ithaca in general is

(30:45):
like just you know, summer on the East Coast. Everyone's
just like so alive, and I did not know how
to say no to things because I was afraid of,
you know, I was afraid of saying no being a
disappointment to someone else, not continuing some of connection with
a friendship, also visiting family, Like all of my weekends
were just full, and then there's also you know, catching

(31:07):
up on laundry and grocery shopping, you know, all of life.
I did not have any downtime in my life, and
if I did, maybe it was like watching TV, but
I was maybe looking at emails at the same time,
and I was like, I'm sitting you know, I didn't know,
and so there was just this breaking point where I

(31:28):
just knew something was wrong. And there were times when
I would cry to Ian saying, I don't know how
to listen to myself. So I knew, I knew I
wasn't listening. I just had no idea how to listen.
And it was really sad because, like I was aware
of this issue, I just didn't know what to do.
And at that time, I was listening to the to

(31:50):
Be Magnetic podcast. A friend had maybe introduced me to
that company, and so I had been listening and the
founder Lacy Phillips. She had talked about a dreamal fatigue
and burnout on one of her episodes, and I was like,
oh my god, I didn't even know what a dreamal
fatigue was. And so I eventually went to a natural

(32:13):
path in Ithaca, a friend of mine, and she gave
me We did a Dutch test, which is like, yeah,
you're familiar, but it's basically like a hormone test where
you spit and pee on these different tabs throughout the
day and it kind of measures your hormone levels. And
that basically confirmed that I had some hormonal issues and

(32:35):
I think probably in the scheme of things, they were
not so bad, but it was affecting me a lot.
So through that podcast, I had heard about the bean
protocol and how that can support you in hormonal deficiencies
hormonal issues.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
And so this is like your big topic. Everyone listened up.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
A bean me at the meatriat I'm just like telling
everyone to eat beans. No.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
But also like I've been following your you know, personal
page for years, and I remember when the bean content
started coming out, because you know, you do perk out up.
It's it's obviously it's like beans are healthy, but you
don't hear people glamorizing the bean the way you glamorize
the bean. So let's go, let's hear about this protact.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, I know, I was not a passionate about beans
before doing the Bean Protocol there, and I guess I've
always been a believer of healing through food, right, It's
what got me into this industry. It's why I wanted
to start. Emmy's like, there needs to be better indulgent
treats that don't have all the junk in them, right,
we need to be eating foods that we can pronounce

(33:36):
all the ingredients of, you know. So it makes sense
that that's where what I wanted to try first, and
that was really my mindset. I was like, I'm just
going to try it and if it doesn't work, then
I'll look at maybe taking different supplements or you know,
getting another opinion. And so I worked with Unique Hammond,
who basically coaches people through the Bean Protocol for one month.

(33:58):
She kind of got me set up and then I
was able to text your email, you know, if I
had questions. And Ian also did it at the same
time because he has you know, his own health stuff,
and so the Bean Protocol can help everyone, but it
can be it's tailored, you know, you do things maybe
slightly different based on your symptoms. And so this was
at the beginning of twenty twenty when all this happened,

(34:22):
and so we were doing the bean protocol, you know,
for three months, you know, before the pandemic hit. But
it ended up being very supportive in that sense, you know,
because we weren't going out to eat, not that we
went out to eat that much anyway, but we were
like just stayed at home and ate a lot of beans.
And so for me, that also meant cutting out caffeine,

(34:42):
all sugar, including fruit, so that included Emmy's products for
many months, which was really sad, including dairy. Basic. I
was basically eating beans, lean protein, vegetables and healthy facts
like as snacks, and that's pretty much it. And I
think maybe after like three months of doing it, I

(35:04):
think the sleep. I think even a month I noticed
a shift. But I noticed that every three months I
felt like a major shift in my body. And it
was the best that I'd ever felt, not only the best,
but I'd say the most connected to myself and how
my body was actually feeling. And now because of my

(35:26):
burnout and me not knowing that I didn't know how
to listen to myself. I also, at the beginning of
twenty twenty started or maybe at the end of twenty nineteen,
I started doing somatic therapy, and I also joined to
be Magnetic and started doing those programs online. And so
those three things kind of were my path to healing.

(35:46):
And I actually still do all three of those things today.
And just what happened during that time was just it
was transformative. It wasn't just with my body and kind
of understanding just how a healthy hormonal system fell helped
in my body, but it was also doing a lot
of unpacking from my childhood trauma, learning how to listen

(36:08):
to the sensations in my body. I just I was
so disconnected from my body. I was so in my head.
We most of us are. So that's normal or I
don't know what normal is. But and so basically I
feel like that was my kind of entry point into
having a connection with myself. And those kind of three
avenues is what really supported me.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Right when you say that, like you're still doing it.
I just spent time with you and you're not just
like shoveling beans all day, Right, what is the role
of beans now?

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Right?

Speaker 3 (36:45):
What is the role of beans now? Just because I
think that, like to the lay person also, it might
come off as restrictive. And I know you and your
relationship to food and being with you, I and preparing
food for you. I know, I felt like you're on
the strict photos.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
And I will say I did have some hesitation doing
the Bean protocol because I do have a history of
discordered eating in colleges. When it really started for me,
and I was worried, and even when I was in
my like raw food days, I like still was you know,
maybe you know, like call it orthorexia, like kind of
obsessive about the health healthiness of everything. So I've actually

(37:22):
done a lot of work to kind of unpack that.
And with the Bean Protocol, I was a little bit worried.
But I also had so like I was so tired
of being tired and sleeping. I was running on nothing.
I was running on adrenaline. And actually when I looked
at the foods that I was eating at that time,
I would wake up. I would go to the gym.

(37:43):
This is pre everything. Go to the gym, do very
hard exercise, like high impact workouts. I'd come home, shower,
I'd make a smoothie with lots of like I mean
like protein powder and like lots of fruits. And I
wouldn't even have it until I got to the office.
So it's like I'm just not feeding myself and I'm
having a lot of sweet things. Oh and I'd have

(38:04):
coffee on an empty stomach and just now knowing what
I know, Oh my god, I was just running on nothing.
I was running on adrenaline and causing so much stress
in my body. Like just my nervous system was so shot.
So as far as the restrictive now right, So I
kind of I went through the healing phase of the
bean protocol, which for me was about nine months to

(38:25):
a year. I was like pretty strict about it, and
it was during the pandemic, and so it was kind
of easy because I just like wasn't going out or
traveling a lot. But then I started incorporating even at
nine months, like playing with little things. How does this
feel in my body? You know, like, oh, if I
have like a decaf latte, what is that? Or ooh,
like if I have some like fruit salad or you know,

(38:47):
and I now have such a strong sense of what
my body's craving and when I want to have it.
And so the role beans play now in my life
is I usually eat beans for breakfast every single morning.
Like there's just nothing that satisfies me the way that
beans and eggs and vegetables do. It's just like, and
I'm a person, a creature of how it like, when

(39:07):
I find something, I stick to it, and if I
can have beans in any other meal throughout the day, great,
But I'm not hyper focused on that. I really really
listen to what my body wants. And honestly, what my
body wants is simple foods, Like that's just what I
crave and what I want. But I don't let that
stop me from going out to a restaurant and having

(39:28):
a beautiful experience there. Traveling like I just don't. I
travel with sillium husks, so I do, you know, make
sure to have my fiber. But I really love the
balance that I've found now, and especially actually around food.
I love the analogy of making a decision from a
full or an empty place, you know, like I guess

(39:51):
a few let's see, was it in April? I got
this intuitive hit to do some kind of cleanse, and
I was really kind of on my about it because
I was like cleanses like that's not healthy, Like I
don't know, or are you trying to lose weight? Like
what is? And so I kind of held it for
like three weeks and I just kept thinking about it,
and it did. It just kept coming up, and I

(40:13):
realized that at that time I had just had a
lot of emotional stuff in my body, like I had
just and my digestion wasn't right at my armpits smelled weird,
like something wasn't right in my body. And so I
had a friend who kind of recommended doing a kitchery cleanse,
which is like an ir vedic and I hate even

(40:33):
using the word cleanse, but I basically ate kitchery for
my meals for four days or something. And I realized
it was coming from this full place. I wasn't trying
to change anything about my body or restrict myself. I
just really had this this knowing that like I just
needed to like move things through in a different way.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
I think that's really brave and intelligent to have that
conversation with self. And also like I get that like cleanse,
like diet culture has now like x that word, right,
But like I'm kind of with you where like I
think almost like too farts, Like we can use these words,
And there's definitely times in my life too where like

(41:14):
it's really hard to mentally get to your brain and
your mind and your soul when the insides feel the
opposite of cleanse, when they feel backed up and all
of that. Yeah, so I definitely understand the role of that.
And it wasn't also like you were just doing that,
like doing it in combination with the somitic therapy, which

(41:34):
is incredibly powerful and the I have magnetic stuff, like
you you were really hitting everything at one time. So
while while this is going on back in twenty nineteen
and you're healing your burnout, what's going on with Emmy's.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
So it was a very stressful time for Emys, just
with the pandemic and you know, figuring out how we
could continue to operate while keeping everyone safe, and you know,
there was just a lot of stress coming from everyone
our team, and you know, me and Ian were really
trying to navigate all of that and it was really

(42:08):
really hard. It was really stressful. But at the same time,
you know, we were able to keep our business alive,
which was not the case for a lot of businesses,
and so we feel so grateful that we were able
to kind of get through that really hard time. And
I think it was around then when, you know, even
before the pandemic, we had started talking about raising money,

(42:30):
and I think because we realized that eventually we liked
the idea of selling the business. You know, when we started,
that was not our goal. We didn't even know we
were and so it was many years in when you know,
we would talk to investors and they're like, what do
you want? What are your goals? You know, and we
were like, we don't know. We we just love growing

(42:51):
this business and what we've created. But then there was
a point when we were like, eventually, I think we
would because we're so young, it would be so cool
to floor other things at some point, and so we
started looking at raising money to get you know, a
minority investment, and that was kind of pre pandemic and
then through the pandemic, and I will say, me doing

(43:12):
my own work at that time, I started getting really
clear that I was ready to take some of the
weight off my shoulders. I think just understanding like, you know,
again I didn't burn myself out because I was a
business owner. It was because of you know, me not
listening to myself. But at the same time, I put
a lot of pressure on myself around the business always,

(43:32):
you know, because it's so important to me, and I
just the idea of just having a little weight taken
off just felt right for me. I think eventually in
my like journaling even I could see at first it
was a minority investment, and then I remember being like,
I actually would really love it if it was a
majority or a full acquisition, like if it was done
in a way that would maintain our values. That was

(43:54):
always we weren't going to move forward with anything if
must that was happening, and so we ended up doing
this investor pitch online. It was it's normally an event
that happens in person, and I don't know if we
would have done it if it was in person, because
neither of us you know me or you really like
to speak in front of people like that. And so
we did this virtual investor pitch and that's when we

(44:16):
first connected with the company that fully eventually acquired us.
At first we were talking about an investment. It was
like a year, almost a year until anything happened. But
that's when we started talking to them and kind of
learning about their company and you know what being a
part of it would be.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Like, it's pretty awesome because when we were in Guatemala,
these huge trucks were going by with the name of
the company and you're like, oh, that's the company that
acquired us. And I think, you know, at first thought,
when you think big company, small business, like you're not.
You know, you're going to lose a lot of what
you came for. But we've had so many conversations where
that's not the case. Like you have obviously, I know

(44:55):
that you wouldn't have sold to a big company if
they were going to cause you to bend in place
you didn't want to, right, But can you speak to
the fact that, like you still get to make important
decisions alongside them.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Yeah, I mean I think they really wanted me an
Ian to stay and to really like lead the company,
and so that was really cool. We didn't want manufacturing
to change it all because we've created something really special
there and so that was really important to us. We
wanted to maintain our living wage status, which we were,
and we also wanted to remain a certified de corp.
Which is something I didn't talk about, but that's just

(45:29):
another way that we kind of like measure our like
how we were using business as a course for good.
And so those were the conversations that we had with them.
You know, we're just asking all these questions and oh
and the other thing is that everyone that we met
from the company we liked, and I just kept being like,
is this for real? Like I don't like, I genuinely

(45:51):
like all these people, and they seem like good people,
and that I just it was just good to be true,
to be true, like is this really? Like do we
really like everyone? So there were just a lot of
things that honestly felt right. And now that I know
how to listen to my body and my instincts, like

(46:12):
it just felt like a full body yes. And so
you know, obviously there were a lot of many months
of conversations going back on information financial you know, like
it's a very intensive process, which by the way, we
went through and didn't tell anyone that we were going
I think we told friends and family only tight close

(46:34):
friends and family, maybe like a week before we closed
the deal, because it was like we didn't want people
checking in on us about this. It felt very private
and we wanted to make sure we're making the right
decisions just like with our own like just us. And
it was actually a really special time like just navigating
that together. And also we have a CEO also that

(46:57):
lived on the West Coast another part of the story.
But yeah, so it was like the three of us
kind of navigating this.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
I think that's incredibly wise. I just want to say
for you and any of our listeners when making when
going through something big, like not telling everybody, because that
invites questions, advice or just energy, Yeah, that can get
tangled with yours, and it's it was a sacred step
forward for you and Ian to make sure that the

(47:24):
choice was really staying yours and any outside noise could
have infiltrated and you kept it you know, tight, which
is really again wise And I think a symptom of
healing yourself and feeling so connected to self. I always say,
like listening to your body becomes easy because once you
are in touch with that, like everything else, you don't

(47:45):
hear it because you're so loud, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Or I've also learned like if I'm not sure to wait,
you know, and that didn't happen as much with like
this deal or anything, but just there are times when
I'm like, sure, how I feel, So I'm like I'm
going to pause, you know, or I'm going to come
back to that, because yeah, that's just for me, that's
how I navigated that. So it really it just happened

(48:12):
in this way that actually felt just really right. And
I never thought that selling a business could feel this right,
never ever, because I've had many friends in the industry
sell their companies and or have just a lot of
investors and have like weird relationships and maybe not, you know,
feel good about what happened, but we really feel like

(48:33):
this was the right decision for us at that time.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
And this catapulted a lot of change into your life.
You were living in Ethica with Ian. You now are
an LA resident. And for anybody who doesn't know Samantha
hasn't followed, this might come as a little tier jerker
at first, but you know, romantic partner business partner Ian
that we've heard about for you know, all throughout this
episode and the business that you built, you are no

(48:59):
longer romantic partners, right, And I thought I could just
read your post if that's okay, and then we could
talk it through. Because this I think, I mean, you're
making huge change in the world. But if people could
approach relationships, whether it's divorce with kids or just partners
without kids, like you did, I think, Oh, it's just
so refreshing. So Samantha posted a picture of her and

(49:22):
Ian and wrote, no love lost, love transformed. Ian and
I are moving into this next chapter of life as
close friends and business partners. I think when a couple
ends their romantic partnership, the normal assumption is that something
went wrong. But for me and Ian, everything has gone right.
What I love about us is that we've always done
things our own way. We met together five months later,
started a business after three months later. We committed to

(49:43):
doing bicker yoga every morning at six am. We shared
one car, one bank account, one workplace. Never tired of
each other. We're still not tired of each other. We
met and dove into life as true partners in every
sense of the word. Although this feels sudden, we've been
navigating the shift in our relationship since January twenty twenty two.
Journey of getting here has been deep, thoughtful, courageous, beautiful, transformative,

(50:03):
and don't get me wrong. Hella sad and confusing at times,
but throughout this journey, we never stopped loving and supporting
each other. I've learned so much about myself, about relationships,
about love, and about grief. For the last five months,
we've been living separately and really loving how it feels.
We are different people now and it's been fun to
explore who we are as individuals. There's a little bit
more to that, but how cool is that to remain

(50:25):
loving and connected to each other and then also explore individuality,
especially because you were together for how many years? Fourteen
fourteen years starting this business, Like, it's very easy to
get lost in each other. So anything you want to
add to that that wasn't like perfectly said in that post, I.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Mean, I don't even know what I could add, but yeah,
this experience has been transformative. And to be able to
do it with Ian as my partner, like and he
still is my partner, you know, it's really been amazing,
you know, And I think my biggest fear I remember
in the beginning, you know, it's like I had this

(51:07):
intuitive hit in January of twenty twenty two that something
wasn't right, and it fucked me up, I'm not gonna
lie for months, like I just it scared the hell
out of me because I had never thought about life
without him. And it took many months, but I realized
that my biggest fear was losing him in my life.

(51:28):
And I'm tearing up just thinking about this because it's
so real, like this person has just been my family,
you know, for such a long time. And I realized
we had just gone through so many months of kind
of confusing, like I was having these really confusing feelings
and like, you know, we were trying to navigate all
of them, but he hadn't gone anywhere. He didn't go anywhere,

(51:50):
and there was this moment I remember, I think it
was the summer of twenty twenty two. I was like,
he's not going anywhere. And that allowed for a huge
shift in just us approaching what was going to be
best for us moving forward because and there was just
that safety and knowing that I wasn't going to lose
him in my life and that that was huge. And

(52:14):
so yeah, just knowing that has been really special because
I didn't I don't want to lose him in my
life or his family, you know, they're my family.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
I love that you have challenged, tackled and won the
notion that breaking up means no relationship again. And also
with that unspokenly comes like, you know, I think people
think of jealousy, comes up like we can't stay friends
because we'd be jealous, or you know, just too much history.

(52:45):
And I get that there are certain things that are confusing,
especially as new partners may get involved and so forth, right,
minimize that, but to really get to the bottom of
the fear, right like him not being into your life
and allows you to make such a bold move that
I don't know what your long term life will be
maybe with him. I don't know where you guys stand

(53:05):
with that. But the importance of individuality, especially when you've
done everything together, is so cool that you could reclaim
that at any age, right, Like you're in your thirties
and you're ReCl living on your own now. Yeah, And
I assume that that's hard because when you are so
enmeshed with somebody like you have different roles, so now
you have to learn the tasks that he has been

(53:26):
doing for you for fourteen years and vice versa.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Yeah, in my first month living on my own, I
really came up against some edges, not as much around tasks,
but more just I didn't know how to live life
just for me, you know, Like I was still even
though we had separated. I just in the back of
my head was like, well, I'm going to wait to
make any major decisions because like maybe something's going to

(53:52):
shift with me and Ian, you know, or like I'm
going to wait and see. And we also hired a
really wonderful relationship that supported us through this, So I
just want to put that out there too, and we
feel very privileged that we were able to do that.
And it was very supportive for us because even though
we've always had wonderful communication and have a lot of
skills in that sense, this was very new territory. And

(54:14):
so it was cool because I was sharing a lot
of this with our coach and she was like, you
don't know how to live like unattacked. It was like
this was my anxious attachment coming up and really being
able to see it. And I wasn't even able to
buy like a box of butter like that had four
sticks of But when I first got here, I was like,

(54:35):
I don't want to make any kind of commitment to LA,
Like I don't know what's going to happen, you know,
And so I really had to like work through that
and kind of unpath things as I went, and you know,
I just I have this sense of trust because it's
just like if Ian and I are meant to be
together in that capacity in the future, like we'll find
each other again, you know, And so I just I

(54:55):
really trust all of this. And uh, he's doing so
great too, and like really like loving life on his own.
He's kind of like a nomad at heart, and he's
so cool flow adventure man. So yeah, he's been like, yeah,
taking weeks also the lessons. He's been out in la also,
but he's actually leaving today to make his way back
to the East Coast.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Do you think that'll be hard?

Speaker 1 (55:18):
You know, I thought it would be, but I think
that I mean, I'm going to see him in like
a month and a half when I go back to
the East Coast, and you know, we do spend time
with each other, but not like every single week or anything.
So I think that it's going to be okay.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Is it hard to like not do the normal like
semi romantic things that you used to do, like holding
hands or can you still do that? Because you're just
friends and we've just put a romantic like spin on
that as a culture.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah, I can't say we've been holding a hand. So
it's been very natural. I don't really know, you know,
obviously we we love and support each other. We talk
to each other on the phone like things that we're
dealing with. We also are not legally divorced, so we like,
you know, we have our home in Ithaca, and we're
like navigating just like our life things, which honestly is
really fun for us. We love working on things together,

(56:06):
you know, like we that's just like what you do,
what we do. You've done yeah, yeah, and so no,
i'd say that that hasn't been hard. It's been just
a very natural shift. But we still very much love
and support each other.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
I really feel so inspired by it and just think
the gravity of what you've done and showcasing it, which
like you're you know, someat a personal person, somewhat of
a personal person. Not everything's out there really is going
to transform and make people think. It's so thought provoking
to really think about like why we're with our partners

(56:40):
and can we still have them in our lives if
we don't, you know, and just really challenging that paradigm.
And mostly I'm just so happy for you guys because
it's flowing from such a peaceful place. So my last
question is, just like what now I think you know,
it became very obvious on the Meat Treat, although you
were there for self, that you are showing up as

(57:03):
a leader in many ways and want to help. I
think other people navigate entrepreneurialship right from the place of
the heart. So what is your current work outside of
still doing your emmy stuff.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
I'm kind of exploring that, I guess at this point.
I've always been a very natural life and business coach,
I would say over the years, especially as I've like
dove into various healing modalities, I've done lots of workshops,
I've been a part of online platforms. I've learned. I'm
someone that just like really dives into things, and so

(57:37):
I am doing a little bit of that on the
side right now. So I have some business coaching clients,
and I have a life coaching client, and I actually
am going to explore something with someone who is on
the Metreat where I'm going to support her in creating
like a devotional daily practice and just kind of like

(57:58):
listening to what her needs are and kind of setting
her like giving her a prescription, because I think I
think the hardest thing about starting any kind of connection
with self, spiritual journey, like whatever you want to call it,
is just those early habits, you know, and like really
starting them and sticking to them. And I think that

(58:19):
everyone is very different, and so I'm really curious and
interested in how I can support people in creating those
practices of themselves. With the client that I have, I've
really supported her in nervous system support and creating different
habits for herself. So I think that there's a lot
that I am going to do here. I just don't

(58:39):
fully have it figured out yet, and so it's one
of those things that I'm really allowing to emerge and
just as I get excited, like I literally just had
this idea yesterday and then I reached out to this
person from the metre and she was like, yes, I'm in.
I'm like, can we just do this as a can
you be my guinea pig.

Speaker 3 (58:55):
I think that also speaks to your entrepreneurial nature of
trying to right, Like it's scary to try things, but
you just you start it right, like it's right.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
And so yeah, I've gotten a lot of support from
online communities kind of in the spiritual realm or healing realm,
and so I love the idea of creating something for
myself in that sense. I don't know what it is yet,
So I feel like I'm very early in this stage,
but I'm really excited for what's to come because I'm

(59:26):
really listening and it's coming from a very true place.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Yeah, from a full place too, Like I could feel
it flown out very effortlessly. Well, that's awesome. And like
I said earlier, like when you hugged me ten years ago,
it felt like an imprint. You have a very natural
healing sense and like a very old grandmotherly soul, you
know what I mean. Like there's and I think that
while doing that, like, I think that's what we need

(59:51):
more in quote unquote life coaches.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Right.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
When we think about life coaches, we talk about I
think about people often who are using very like headstrong
modality and mentalities and prescriptions like that. But what we
need is like soft, nurturing life coaches that will allow
us to find ourselves through nervous system reregulation and all
of which like you kind of very naturally embodied, so

(01:00:15):
I'm very excited to see where this side work kind
of takes you. Thank you, as you're a magical being.
So if anybody is like, Okay, I'm feeling very called
to Samantha because of her entrepreneurial nature, or how she's
navigating her relationship, or just the burnout, I mean, all
of that, might be a good person to reach out to.
I'm going to put your information below your Instagram and

(01:00:37):
your website so people can follow along your personal and
professional journey. Thank you so much for sharing your heart
and your soul with us.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Thank you. I love being with you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
Ill being with you too. This was so much fun.
I hope to see you in real life soon too.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yes, totally fo