September 17, 2025 • 32 mins
On this episode, Tudor sits down with Michele Steeb, homelessness expert and author of Answers Behind the Red Door. They dive into the failures of the “Housing First” model, the critical role of mental health and addiction treatment, and why redefining success is essential to solving the crisis. Michele shares powerful insights from her work with women and children experiencing homelessness and outlines a compassionate, community-driven roadmap for recovery and accountability. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today, we are going
to be talking about an increasingly bigger problem in the
United States every single day, and that is homelessness.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
We have an expert with us today.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Her name is Michelle Steve and she actually authored a
book recently in the last few years called Answers Behind
the Red Door, Battling the Homelessness Epidemic. It's something that
Michelle has dealt with for years. You've worked in California
thirteen years as the CEO of Northern California's largest program,
and now you work on another program. You have a
(00:35):
foundation and you work with Discovery Institute. I want to
talk to you about this issue today because I think
a lot of people feel like there's not really an answer,
but you have come up with an answer.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Well, there's more than one answer, but the answer that
there is not is the approach that we've been under
for the last twelve years. It's an approach called Housing First.
I'll explain what that is in a second, but this
approach was designed for a very small segment of the
homeless population ten to twenty percent, called the chronically homeless,
(01:12):
and the George W. Bush administration introduced it in two
thousand and eight for that population. However, in twenty thirteen,
without any evidence that it would work as a one
size fits all approach to homelessness, the Obama administration rolled
it out again as a one size fits all and
(01:33):
they promised, they literally promised, he did in writing that
it would end homelessness in a decade. And here we
are twelve years later. We're at the highest point ever
in our nation's history. It's up thirty almost thirty five percent.
It's been a disaster at every level of the system.
It's destroyed lives, it's destroyed communities, and it just thankfully
(01:58):
this president has said enough enough. He's with his executive
order several weeks ago, has as I described it, turned
the battleship in the right direction. But we now need
to build a system that is going to help people
actually get treatment and recover, which they can do. It's
the reason I wrote the book. I have tremendous hope
(02:20):
this can be turned around at the individual level and
at the systemic level. And I'm looking forward to our
discussion today.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I think that what you said is true.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I think there is We do have a president now
who's looking at this in a different way. But you
are also fighting a bureaucracy across this country, and you
know that better than most In California. I mean, I
remember we were working out in San Francisco in twenty eighteen,
and I think back then just the city of San
Francisco had six hundred million dedicated to homelessness every year
(02:51):
and that was to like fifteen thousand homeless people in
the city of San Francisco. This is, to me, the
question is, once you get to a point where you
have a government agency that has a six hundred million
dollar budget, who wants to shut down their own department?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Right, why does homelessness not end?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I mean, maybe it's because people are making a lot
of money on homelessness.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Well, you're exactly right. In fact, I just posted today
in San Francisco alone, there are twelve nonprofits under investigation
homeless serving nonprofits under investigation for misuse of funds and
or fraud in LA.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
I just wait, wait, wait, are these just a question?
When you say misuse of funds? Are those nonprofits getting
taxpayer funds?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Oh? Yes, absolutely? And then in LA the agency that
oversees homelessness at the county, at the COC level. Karen
Bass's best friend was appointed to head up that agency,
and she mysteriously left after about I don't know a year,
(03:58):
a year and a half. And it turns out that
there was a lot of misuse of funds. There were
some whistleblowers who called that to attention. That's now being investigated.
And one of the misuses of funds is that she
hired a contractor who within a day of his being
(04:18):
on board, gave her a lap dance. I'd love to
see the scope of work in that contract.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
WHOA that was not where I thought that was going
to go. That's oh yeah, crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yes, So there's you know that the problem with the system.
So let me describe what housing first. Housing first says.
We need to put everyone who experiences homelessness in a
housing unit for life, without any conditions, without any conditions.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So nobody helping them.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
This is not like a health institution where people are
actually getting rehab or being taken care of. They're providing
a home, which, in my experience or from what I've
been told, it's not that they just need.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
A place to live.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
There are many different factors as to why they are homeless.
So it's not like you're going to build a bunch
of housing and put people there and walk away from
them and their lives are going to improve.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Well, that's exactly what the philosophy wasn't. Again, President Obama
promised this would end homelessness in a decade. The fallacy
is they believed that once the homeless were housed, they
would all of a sudden desire services and they could
request those services. But what no one talks about is
(05:36):
again when they rolled out housing first as a one
size fits all approach in twenty thirteen, ud actually defunded
services like mental health treatment, drug and alcohol counseling, employment training,
and they put all of that money into housing subsidies.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So they take away the services and use that money
to build buildings.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Well, to fund further housing subsidies. Build buildings was part
of it as well, but all of it, All of
that money went into housing. And again the results are
that despite the promise it would end in ten years,
it's up thirty five percent. What people don't understand is
that when about eighty percent of the homeless population are
(06:21):
struggling with mental illness and or addiction, when they are
struggling with those diseases. They're often struggling with another disease
of the brain classified by CDC, which is called anisygnosia,
and that's a deficit of self awareness. So the notion
that they're going to be placed into housing and all
(06:42):
of a sudden it's going to become clear that they
have an addiction problem or that they really struggle with
severe mental illness, that's a fallacy. There's a study, the
only long term study that we've been able to find
that was done in Boston that followed the chronically homeless
placed in housing for over ten years. After year five,
(07:08):
nearly fifty percent of the cohort died. They did not
decide that they wanted treatment. They did not decide.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
That they died of drug overdoses or what happened.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
There's a myriad of causes. You know, I can send
you the study, but it was largely untreated mental illness
and addiction. Right, These are diseases of the brain. When
diseases go untreated, they get worse. And that's what happens.
When we stick people in a house, we isolate them
from community, which is what individual housing units does, and
(07:43):
when we expect them to all of a sudden gain
some you know, miraculous clarity that they really need help.
It's just not happening.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
The other day, the President talked about bringing mental health
institutions back.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
What is your opinion of that.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Well, I want to clarify, you know, at the federal level,
we didn't deal with mental health at all. It was
really left to the states and to you know, communities.
But under JFK he had some advisors who were physicians,
not really even experts in mental illness, who convinced him
(08:20):
to build a mental health system at the federal level.
To drive it at the federal level, it was Reagan
who indeed shut these institutions down because the outcomes were
so poor. And the intention was I don't know what happened,
but the intention was that Congress would come up with
a new system. But those institutions weren't shut down because
(08:43):
Reagan was a horrible guy. He shut them down because
the outcomes were horrible. So to your question, Tittor, if
we do need to build a lot more mental health capacity,
but we don't need to go back to the system
that was developed in the sixties that failed, you know,
those struggling with mental illness in a massive way.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
You dealt with a lot of women and children, and
obviously children in this situation is devastating, and we've seen
it out on the streets. We've seen people whole families
living in encampments on the streets. What was what did
you see was helping the most with women who were
homeless and they were trying to raise their children on
(09:23):
the streets.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Well, there's a lot of so let me step back,
and I shared earlier the data around the overall homeless
population our women and we I mean I probably served
in my time, my thirteen years, there about fifteen thousand
women and children. Seventy eight percent of our women were
struggling with addiction, seventy percent with domestic violence, sixty eight
(09:49):
percent with criminal histories, seventy percent mental illness, fifty five
percent didn't have a high school diploma or ged right.
So our program was a twelve eighteen month comprehensive program
that help them address all of those issues in an
accountability ober environment that is really really crucial all of
(10:12):
the if even if you want to get better in
this current system, again, the system the president has you know,
asked us on the front lines to change. Even if
you want to get better. Your next door neighbor is
likely using because he or she can. It is really
hard to recover and to you know, get on a
(10:32):
different path when you're surrounded by chaos and drugs and
people that are whose mental illness is not being treated.
So that's the whole system that we've built in the
last twelve years, and that's the system we have to
get rid of and rebuild under the President's executive orders.
(10:52):
At Saint John's the program Iran, we had mental health counseling,
We had drug and alcohol counseling. I actually started to
rest on in a daycare program that were hands on
employment training programs for the women and children. We had
a robust children's program. We had, you know, an ability
for them to get a bank account, to create a budget,
(11:16):
to start to save money, to pay off fines. A
lot of the homeless have years of fines that they're
maybe not even aware of, but you want to get
them aware of those early on, so that when they
do get a job and they're in stable housing, their
wages or not all of a sudden garnished because the
IRS or whoever whatever agency has caught up with them.
(11:39):
You've got to start to address those things early on.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
These are fines from like tickets that they've had while
there's you know.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Streets, the public transportation system without a ticket, parking illegally,
driving without a driver's license. And when those fines are
not addressed, they accumulate. Right, we were able to at
some taken off the books, but a lot of our
women just needed to set up a payment plan, you know,
(12:08):
very slowly, start to address those things, show show that
they wanted to and sometimes and and and get those
paid off. And sometimes they were forgiven after the women
demonstrated and you know, an eagerness to do that. But
all of those things need to be addressed. And so
(12:29):
when they're in their own housing, they know how to
you know, at our program, the women had chores every day.
They were taught how to you know, clean bathrooms, how
to you know, prepare dinner, how to clean up after dinner,
how to do laundry the proper way, how to you know,
think about if they're taking public transportation, planning for that,
(12:52):
planning for eventualities that you know they some that you know,
something maybe not on time, and then getting to your
point and in time. Right, all of those things learning
how to talk to a teacher of your child that
they've never really been engaged with. So you really can't
underestimate the fundamentals, right, the basics, But you also can't
(13:17):
underestimate the lack of role models they've had in their
lives of people who are working, who are self sustaining
and thriving, and we needed to teach all of that
under our you know, twelve to eighteen month roof.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
a Tutor Dixon podcast.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Well, let me ask you. We saw what Donald Trump
did in Washington, d C. When he removed the homeless encampments,
and I wonder how we got to this point in
society where we see these homeless encampments and we say
that people living intents on public property is humane and
trying to take them out of that situation is inhumane.
Because there was a lot of uproar about how can
(14:02):
you take these people's property, how can you remove them
from this situation? When did we get to the point
where we said this is how we want people in
the United States living.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Because it's really hard to reverse that mindset.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Absolutely, And you know what I wish I had an
answer for you. The best answer I can come up
with is again, when they rolled this out, and you know,
Obama was on the front lines, but they had a
lot of people behind him saying this is going to
end it. And when they realized what a disaster it
has been, they don't have a better answer, and so
(14:37):
they're sticking to their guns. They keep saying to us,
this is evidence based. It just needs more money. By
the way, I didn't even mention. Under Housing First, homelessness
funding at the federal level went up three hundred percent percent,
and they want more money a lack of funding.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I'm seeing that this is the highest homelessness ever been
in the United.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
States, yes, ever recorded.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And the motion money we've ever spent on it.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
The most money we've ever spent by far. And the
National Alliance and Homelessness and some of you know, I
always say the advocates and air quotes, they are suing
the Trump administration for addressing this. They just file a
lawsuit on Thursday. They're in essence defending status quos.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
This is what I mean when you come out and
you say we want to make sure these people are
not living in a terrible situation and Let's face it,
when you walk by a homeless encampment, you know that
people are being abused, that they are unhealthy, they're not
getting healthcare. I mean, the proponents of everybody should have
health care, these people don't have health care, and they
(15:49):
don't have showers. I mean, there's no health involved in
this situation. And yet we have heard stories of people
who have worked to get people off the streets and
clean up these encampment and can't and they are attacked
by radical leftists who say, don't you dare clean up
the encampment?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Why do you want people living like this?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Exactly in Seattle, my friend who runs a fantastic program
there called Weeheart Seattle. She and her volunteers, it's volunteer
led program who go in and clean up encampments and
lead those that we're living in the encampments into treatment.
She is under constant physical, verbal, and physical attack because
(16:28):
she's helping these individuals in a way that our government
has failed them.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
This is I mean that to me is it's not shocking.
I would say it's shocking today I think nothing is shocking, right,
But I think it's a sign of how lost we
are and how much this propaganda government propaganda, because I
believe that this happened with the Obama administration. I think
in the first administration of the Trump administration there wasn't
(16:57):
an emphasis on homelessness. I don't think there was an
emphasis on it in the Biden administration. But I do
think that Gavin Newsom has kept it like this because
there's a massive amount of funding that goes into these
programs and it is a malicious programming now, malicious to
keep people in the situation, because if you keep people
in the situation, you have to continue to have this program.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Well, I fully agree with you, and I would say
the other thing is is that voters have become complacent.
We need to start holding our elected leaders responsible for
their promises. Gavin Newsom in twenty twenty promised, literally stood
up and promised to end family homelessness in five years.
It is up thirty eight percent now under his watch,
(17:42):
and there's no accountability for it. It's just cars.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
It's not just hurting the people though that are in
the homeless encampments. I mean, you have businesses who have
said they can't get people to come anymore because they
have so many people living on the sidewalk in front
of their business. I mean, obviously, gavinknews Some knows it's
a problem. When he had the president come in from China,
he removed everybody from the streets and.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Then where did they go? Nobody ever talked about that.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Oh, well, this is important because we've got a communist
coming well.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And to the accountability point, why didn't anyone hold him
accountable when it went back to normal three weeks later
after President Chee King.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That's yes, exactly, I mean crazy, and what did he do?
What did he do in that period of time? Obviously,
that to me proves that he knows homelessness is a problem.
Gavin Newsome knows that he has let the streets of
California become completely out of control, unsafe and unhealthy, totally disgusting,
and yet he is unwilling to come out and say
(18:41):
he will do something for humanity.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, and again endless promises about addressing it. Now he's
trying to shift the blame about three or four months ago.
He's now saying, we have done enough. We have raised
all this money for you. It is up to the
local governments to do their and it's you know what,
he's not what he's not talking about obviously, and I
(19:06):
don't even mention this. When the federal government adopted housing
first in twenty thirteen, the state of California doubled down
on that. They adopted housing first is their one size
fits all approach. In twenty sixteen, Newsom has so all
when when federal or state money is spent on homelessness,
it's largely spent at the local level. It's distributed at
(19:29):
the local level. He has kept a counties and cities
under the thumb of housing first. They have no other
alternative but to build more housing units and subsidize them
with the funding that they get from you know, the state,
and thankfully the federal government funding will give them a
lot more flexibility now. But he is he has created
(19:54):
this problem. It is his problem. He has documented a
million times as saying he, you know, was making it
a priority, he was going to end it. But no
one's holding Hi accountable. So, you know, at the end
of the day, we need to start holding people accountable
for you know, the results, the outcomes of the policies
they support, and accountable for shifting gears when it's not working.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It's something we don't want to talk about I think
because we have so many people in this situation that
have lost contact with their loved ones. It's not necessarily
something that every family deals with. It's not It's kind
of an out of sight, out of mind to the
point where I read an article this morning that said
the city of Kalamazoo is actually in Michigan, is actually
(20:38):
putting people on a bus with ten thousand dollars and
just shipping them out of town. And people are like,
where are they going? And I think it's kind of
an out of sight, out of mind. Oh, we took
care of it. They're not here anymore, okay. But on
the human aspect of this, where are they? Oh, we
got them back with family, We got them with a program.
I don't believe that for a second. So take us
(20:59):
through a little bit. If you do have this situation
where you're dealing with a mom, she comes in with kids.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Every situation is different. I know that.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I think that that is part of the problem, is
that every dynamic, every person has different dynamics.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But when you see that, how do you combat it?
What do you go? How do you immediately respond?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Well, you got to start with what's the definition of success?
Right under the old system, the current system. Housing First,
the definition of success is getting someone keys to an
apartment unit. That's it. There's no tracking of you know,
did they engage in services to make their lives better,
did they get a job, did they increase their income?
(21:37):
Are their kids in school? None of that is happening.
We need to start with a definition of success, which
is something to the effect of at Saint John's, it's
we wanted to support these women in becoming the primary
providers of their families and no longer being dependent on
government and on substances, so that they could provide for
their families. And that was the path you know, everything
(22:00):
we did was the pathway to that. Right. So at
the beginning, you need to really focus on stability. And
for someone who's struggling with addiction, you cannot talk about,
you know, eighteen months ahead. You need to talk about Okay,
let's just focus on being sober for an hour, and
then let's focus on being sober for eight hours, and
(22:22):
then let's focus on twenty four. Right, And it's these
baby steps, and then it's the same with mental illness. Right,
you start to stabilize them, you get them some counseling,
and they start to have hope. They have clarity because
their mind is clear of drugs or alcohol, but they
(22:42):
also start to have hope. And then as they have hope,
you can start to stare step them into more classes,
more services, the hands on employment training, you know, domestic
violence counseling if that was your issue, but you need
to you can't. We know what the north star is,
but we can't be focused with them on the north
(23:03):
star just yet. We need to really start in small
increments and as they build capacity and as they build stamina,
you know, on this pathway, then you start to introduce
more autonomy. Right more they can set, you know, to
some degree, their own rules, and they can start to
be more involved in what the goals are beyond Saint
(23:24):
John's so's it's a very individualized. We call it a
human first approach versus a housing first approach. But you
really have to start with what's your definition of success?
And that's why I'm so delighted by these executive orders
because the President is talking about a definition of success
that is recovery and treatment focused, and that's where we
(23:48):
need to be focused as a system.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
You just told us whether it is mental health or
drug addiction. You are bringing these people into a situation
where it is an hour by our recovery, and yet
the solution on the mainstream is right now to just
put them in a house and walk away. As far
as I'm concerned, what you told me is that we
are putting millions of dollars into failure for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yep. One, you know that the notion that just the
notion that everyone who struggles with homelessness needs a house
that's subsidized for life. That's crazy. We could never build
our you know, when we started this in twenty thirteen,
we already were in an affordable housing crisis as a nation.
(24:34):
The housing that we're setting aside for the homeless is
a portion of that affordable housing. So our solution was
dead on arrival. There was never enough affordable housing back then.
There will never be enough if we you know, because
that housing is there for the individuals that are housed
(24:55):
for life. We will never build our way out of that.
And most of homeless population don't need that. What they
need is the support and the services that lead them
to recovery and restoration and to be able to afford
that housing on their own.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I think right now you're telling us we are in
a situation where not only do we need to change
the way we are managing homelessness in this country, but
we're going to have to have almost This is crazy,
but sounds like a pr campaign around it, because there
are so many people on either side of this issue
that don't have the knowledge that you have that really
there's a solution to get people back on track.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Absolutely there is, and that's why I wrote the book.
It's you know, I in my book told the stories
of ten women who came to us at the depths
of despair. I mean, you would not believe some of
the challenges that they had in front of them. And
they are now thriving, and many are homeowners and you know,
married and healthy relationships, now working. There is a roadmap
(25:59):
to this. It's not going to happen overnight. But if
I can leave your listeners with anything, it's it's to
have hope and these executive that the executive Order is
exactly what we needed to build a system that will
lead the homeless to hopeful, rest restored lives and our
communities to the same.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
But the system still needs to be built. Is that
on a state level or a federal level.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Well, federal funding is going to provide some of the
funding for this, and we're waiting to see, you know,
the executive order happened three weeks ago. We're waiting on
what's called the NOFA that hud will issue that what's
called the Notice of Funding Availability. We'll see what they
are funding, how they're funding it. But the federal government hasn't.
(26:46):
They're the largest funder of homelessness, but they're not the
only ones, and they need states and communities to rally
around and support this new direction as well. But yes,
there's a lot of work ahead because the system, as
we discussed it was all about department keys and nothing
else and that's failed. Man.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. So we were a little distracted
in twenty twenty by some other things, and I mean
rightfully so, but I also think that we've been Honestly,
I do think that distraction is a good word for this,
because I think we've been distracted from homelessness and this
(27:30):
problem for so long. I mean, just look at what
we are seeing from last week. There is a lot
of political chaos in this country, and I think a
lot of times we feel like we have to stand
on one side or another side of this issue. I
think you very clearly just stated there's not two different
sides of this issue. The side is compassionate care and
getting people back the lives they want, and I really
(27:51):
think that the majority of Americans are on that side.
Tell us a little bit about the book before I
let you go, so people can realize that this is
like the one answer. It's multiple different answers, but there
is a solution that can get people back to the
lives that they should be living in this country.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yes, and again, I wanted to provide that hope, but
also provide the roadmap through sharing these stories. So there's
I think eleven women that I profiled, there's so many
hundreds of others. I just wrote a story about another woman, Michelle,
who you know, was there at the tail end of
my time at Saint John's and she's now remarried and
(28:29):
you know, had children and sober and just you know,
thriving in a such a significant way. So I continue
to write these stories. Recovery doesn't happen overnight. But I
really wanted to demonstrate the you know, hope that this
can be turned around and the roadmap for that. I
will say that the other role key here is accountability.
(28:56):
We talked about this a little bit earlier. People human
beings fundamentally need to be productive and they need community.
And one thing that's lacking from this current system are
those two things. Right, there's no accountability. You can be
in housing for life, you never have to worry about
(29:16):
being kicked out, you can use drugs, you can not
address your illnesses, and that's okay in the current system,
and that's a fundamental flaw. The other flaw is isolation
in the addiction and mental health worlds. It's a no
no to isolate people that are struggling with those issues.
(29:38):
So we really need a system that is community, accountability
and restorative focused, which is what I'm very excited to
build as we go forward.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, that is something that I will just say I
think is hard to compete with right now, the idea
of free, because I think people think free is compassion,
but there's pride and ownership and you treat things differently
when you have actually earned the ability to partake in that,
whether it is a home, whether it is public transit,
and so we do have that competing idea right now
(30:08):
out there, and we've seen a lot of crime on
public transit. We've seen even crime on the streets because
there are people who are unhealthy, and that's something that
I think has gotten a lot of pushback to like, oh,
you can't just chalk it up to mental illness.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Well, we have not figured out a way to care
for people who are on the streets.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
I mean, what happened in Michigan at the walmart with
the stabbing, that was a situation of someone who should
have been in care, similar to what happened in North Carolina.
And people are like, you can't say that about the
North Carolina situation. That person should have been in jail. Well,
I mean maybe that still should have been a treatment
system for this person. Because I don't know about you,
(30:47):
but that's just not a natural thing to go out
and murder someone. There's something else going on, and we
as a country have to figure out what the solutions are.
So I appreciate tell us you the name of the
book one more time and where you can get it.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Sure behind the Red Door Battling the Homeless Epidemic, it's
available on Amazon, and I also do a lot of
writing on this topic and that can be access to
all of those pieces at Michelle Steve dot com.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And I think that's important because people who are listening.
I know so many people who listen to this podcast
are interested in public office, They're interested in all these topics,
and a lot of times and when we go out
and we campaign, we don't really know how to talk
about this. So having someone who's been on the front
lines that you can learn and you can read and
always I always encourage people to continue to learn about
(31:33):
these things, to go out there and read this and
then you can talk intelligently about it as well. We
appreciate you so much, Michelle Steve, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Thank you so much for having me and caring enough
to have this discussion on this topic.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Absolutely absolutely, and thank you all for joining the Tutor
Dixon podcast. Remember you can get it wherever you get
your podcasts. You can also watch it on Rumble or
YouTube at tutor Dixon and make sure you join us
next time.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Have a blessed
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today, we are going
to be talking about an increasingly bigger problem in the
United States every single day, and that is homelessness.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
We have an expert with us today.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Her name is Michelle Steve and she actually authored a
book recently in the last few years called Answers Behind
the Red Door, Battling the Homelessness Epidemic. It's something that
Michelle has dealt with for years. You've worked in California
thirteen years as the CEO of Northern California's largest program,
and now you work on another program. You have a
(00:35):
foundation and you work with Discovery Institute. I want to
talk to you about this issue today because I think
a lot of people feel like there's not really an answer,
but you have come up with an answer.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Well, there's more than one answer, but the answer that
there is not is the approach that we've been under
for the last twelve years. It's an approach called Housing First.
I'll explain what that is in a second, but this
approach was designed for a very small segment of the
homeless population ten to twenty percent, called the chronically homeless,
(01:12):
and the George W. Bush administration introduced it in two
thousand and eight for that population. However, in twenty thirteen,
without any evidence that it would work as a one
size fits all approach to homelessness, the Obama administration rolled
it out again as a one size fits all and
(01:33):
they promised, they literally promised, he did in writing that
it would end homelessness in a decade. And here we
are twelve years later. We're at the highest point ever
in our nation's history. It's up thirty almost thirty five percent.
It's been a disaster at every level of the system.
It's destroyed lives, it's destroyed communities, and it just thankfully
(01:58):
this president has said enough enough. He's with his executive
order several weeks ago, has as I described it, turned
the battleship in the right direction. But we now need
to build a system that is going to help people
actually get treatment and recover, which they can do. It's
the reason I wrote the book. I have tremendous hope
(02:20):
this can be turned around at the individual level and
at the systemic level. And I'm looking forward to our
discussion today.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I think that what you said is true.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I think there is We do have a president now
who's looking at this in a different way. But you
are also fighting a bureaucracy across this country, and you
know that better than most In California. I mean, I
remember we were working out in San Francisco in twenty eighteen,
and I think back then just the city of San
Francisco had six hundred million dedicated to homelessness every year
(02:51):
and that was to like fifteen thousand homeless people in
the city of San Francisco. This is, to me, the
question is, once you get to a point where you
have a government agency that has a six hundred million
dollar budget, who wants to shut down their own department?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Right, why does homelessness not end?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I mean, maybe it's because people are making a lot
of money on homelessness.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Well, you're exactly right. In fact, I just posted today
in San Francisco alone, there are twelve nonprofits under investigation
homeless serving nonprofits under investigation for misuse of funds and
or fraud in LA.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
I just wait, wait, wait, are these just a question?
When you say misuse of funds? Are those nonprofits getting
taxpayer funds?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Oh? Yes, absolutely? And then in LA the agency that
oversees homelessness at the county, at the COC level. Karen
Bass's best friend was appointed to head up that agency,
and she mysteriously left after about I don't know a year,
(03:58):
a year and a half. And it turns out that
there was a lot of misuse of funds. There were
some whistleblowers who called that to attention. That's now being investigated.
And one of the misuses of funds is that she
hired a contractor who within a day of his being
(04:18):
on board, gave her a lap dance. I'd love to
see the scope of work in that contract.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
WHOA that was not where I thought that was going
to go. That's oh yeah, crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yes, So there's you know that the problem with the system.
So let me describe what housing first. Housing first says.
We need to put everyone who experiences homelessness in a
housing unit for life, without any conditions, without any conditions.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So nobody helping them.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
This is not like a health institution where people are
actually getting rehab or being taken care of. They're providing
a home, which, in my experience or from what I've
been told, it's not that they just need.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
A place to live.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
There are many different factors as to why they are homeless.
So it's not like you're going to build a bunch
of housing and put people there and walk away from
them and their lives are going to improve.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Well, that's exactly what the philosophy wasn't. Again, President Obama
promised this would end homelessness in a decade. The fallacy
is they believed that once the homeless were housed, they
would all of a sudden desire services and they could
request those services. But what no one talks about is
(05:36):
again when they rolled out housing first as a one
size fits all approach in twenty thirteen, ud actually defunded
services like mental health treatment, drug and alcohol counseling, employment training,
and they put all of that money into housing subsidies.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So they take away the services and use that money
to build buildings.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Well, to fund further housing subsidies. Build buildings was part
of it as well, but all of it, All of
that money went into housing. And again the results are
that despite the promise it would end in ten years,
it's up thirty five percent. What people don't understand is
that when about eighty percent of the homeless population are
(06:21):
struggling with mental illness and or addiction, when they are
struggling with those diseases. They're often struggling with another disease
of the brain classified by CDC, which is called anisygnosia,
and that's a deficit of self awareness. So the notion
that they're going to be placed into housing and all
(06:42):
of a sudden it's going to become clear that they
have an addiction problem or that they really struggle with
severe mental illness, that's a fallacy. There's a study, the
only long term study that we've been able to find
that was done in Boston that followed the chronically homeless
placed in housing for over ten years. After year five,
(07:08):
nearly fifty percent of the cohort died. They did not
decide that they wanted treatment. They did not decide.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
That they died of drug overdoses or what happened.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
There's a myriad of causes. You know, I can send
you the study, but it was largely untreated mental illness
and addiction. Right, These are diseases of the brain. When
diseases go untreated, they get worse. And that's what happens.
When we stick people in a house, we isolate them
from community, which is what individual housing units does, and
(07:43):
when we expect them to all of a sudden gain
some you know, miraculous clarity that they really need help.
It's just not happening.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
The other day, the President talked about bringing mental health
institutions back.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
What is your opinion of that.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Well, I want to clarify, you know, at the federal level,
we didn't deal with mental health at all. It was
really left to the states and to you know, communities.
But under JFK he had some advisors who were physicians,
not really even experts in mental illness, who convinced him
(08:20):
to build a mental health system at the federal level.
To drive it at the federal level, it was Reagan
who indeed shut these institutions down because the outcomes were
so poor. And the intention was I don't know what happened,
but the intention was that Congress would come up with
a new system. But those institutions weren't shut down because
(08:43):
Reagan was a horrible guy. He shut them down because
the outcomes were horrible. So to your question, Tittor, if
we do need to build a lot more mental health capacity,
but we don't need to go back to the system
that was developed in the sixties that failed, you know,
those struggling with mental illness in a massive way.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
You dealt with a lot of women and children, and
obviously children in this situation is devastating, and we've seen
it out on the streets. We've seen people whole families
living in encampments on the streets. What was what did
you see was helping the most with women who were
homeless and they were trying to raise their children on
(09:23):
the streets.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Well, there's a lot of so let me step back,
and I shared earlier the data around the overall homeless
population our women and we I mean I probably served
in my time, my thirteen years, there about fifteen thousand
women and children. Seventy eight percent of our women were
struggling with addiction, seventy percent with domestic violence, sixty eight
(09:49):
percent with criminal histories, seventy percent mental illness, fifty five
percent didn't have a high school diploma or ged right.
So our program was a twelve eighteen month comprehensive program
that help them address all of those issues in an
accountability ober environment that is really really crucial all of
(10:12):
the if even if you want to get better in
this current system, again, the system the president has you know,
asked us on the front lines to change. Even if
you want to get better. Your next door neighbor is
likely using because he or she can. It is really
hard to recover and to you know, get on a
(10:32):
different path when you're surrounded by chaos and drugs and
people that are whose mental illness is not being treated.
So that's the whole system that we've built in the
last twelve years, and that's the system we have to
get rid of and rebuild under the President's executive orders.
(10:52):
At Saint John's the program Iran, we had mental health counseling,
We had drug and alcohol counseling. I actually started to
rest on in a daycare program that were hands on
employment training programs for the women and children. We had
a robust children's program. We had, you know, an ability
for them to get a bank account, to create a budget,
(11:16):
to start to save money, to pay off fines. A
lot of the homeless have years of fines that they're
maybe not even aware of, but you want to get
them aware of those early on, so that when they
do get a job and they're in stable housing, their
wages or not all of a sudden garnished because the
IRS or whoever whatever agency has caught up with them.
(11:39):
You've got to start to address those things early on.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
These are fines from like tickets that they've had while
there's you know.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Streets, the public transportation system without a ticket, parking illegally,
driving without a driver's license. And when those fines are
not addressed, they accumulate. Right, we were able to at
some taken off the books, but a lot of our
women just needed to set up a payment plan, you know,
(12:08):
very slowly, start to address those things, show show that
they wanted to and sometimes and and and get those
paid off. And sometimes they were forgiven after the women
demonstrated and you know, an eagerness to do that. But
all of those things need to be addressed. And so
(12:29):
when they're in their own housing, they know how to
you know, at our program, the women had chores every day.
They were taught how to you know, clean bathrooms, how
to you know, prepare dinner, how to clean up after dinner,
how to do laundry the proper way, how to you know,
think about if they're taking public transportation, planning for that,
(12:52):
planning for eventualities that you know they some that you know,
something maybe not on time, and then getting to your
point and in time. Right, all of those things learning
how to talk to a teacher of your child that
they've never really been engaged with. So you really can't
underestimate the fundamentals, right, the basics, But you also can't
(13:17):
underestimate the lack of role models they've had in their
lives of people who are working, who are self sustaining
and thriving, and we needed to teach all of that
under our you know, twelve to eighteen month roof.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
a Tutor Dixon podcast.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Well, let me ask you. We saw what Donald Trump
did in Washington, d C. When he removed the homeless encampments,
and I wonder how we got to this point in
society where we see these homeless encampments and we say
that people living intents on public property is humane and
trying to take them out of that situation is inhumane.
Because there was a lot of uproar about how can
(14:02):
you take these people's property, how can you remove them
from this situation? When did we get to the point
where we said this is how we want people in
the United States living.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Because it's really hard to reverse that mindset.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Absolutely, And you know what I wish I had an
answer for you. The best answer I can come up
with is again, when they rolled this out, and you know,
Obama was on the front lines, but they had a
lot of people behind him saying this is going to
end it. And when they realized what a disaster it
has been, they don't have a better answer, and so
(14:37):
they're sticking to their guns. They keep saying to us,
this is evidence based. It just needs more money. By
the way, I didn't even mention. Under Housing First, homelessness
funding at the federal level went up three hundred percent percent,
and they want more money a lack of funding.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I'm seeing that this is the highest homelessness ever been
in the United.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
States, yes, ever recorded.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And the motion money we've ever spent on it.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
The most money we've ever spent by far. And the
National Alliance and Homelessness and some of you know, I
always say the advocates and air quotes, they are suing
the Trump administration for addressing this. They just file a
lawsuit on Thursday. They're in essence defending status quos.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
This is what I mean when you come out and
you say we want to make sure these people are
not living in a terrible situation and Let's face it,
when you walk by a homeless encampment, you know that
people are being abused, that they are unhealthy, they're not
getting healthcare. I mean, the proponents of everybody should have
health care, these people don't have health care, and they
(15:49):
don't have showers. I mean, there's no health involved in
this situation. And yet we have heard stories of people
who have worked to get people off the streets and
clean up these encampment and can't and they are attacked
by radical leftists who say, don't you dare clean up
the encampment?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Why do you want people living like this?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Exactly in Seattle, my friend who runs a fantastic program
there called Weeheart Seattle. She and her volunteers, it's volunteer
led program who go in and clean up encampments and
lead those that we're living in the encampments into treatment.
She is under constant physical, verbal, and physical attack because
(16:28):
she's helping these individuals in a way that our government
has failed them.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
This is I mean that to me is it's not shocking.
I would say it's shocking today I think nothing is shocking, right,
But I think it's a sign of how lost we
are and how much this propaganda government propaganda, because I
believe that this happened with the Obama administration. I think
in the first administration of the Trump administration there wasn't
(16:57):
an emphasis on homelessness. I don't think there was an
emphasis on it in the Biden administration. But I do
think that Gavin Newsom has kept it like this because
there's a massive amount of funding that goes into these
programs and it is a malicious programming now, malicious to
keep people in the situation, because if you keep people
in the situation, you have to continue to have this program.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Well, I fully agree with you, and I would say
the other thing is is that voters have become complacent.
We need to start holding our elected leaders responsible for
their promises. Gavin Newsom in twenty twenty promised, literally stood
up and promised to end family homelessness in five years.
It is up thirty eight percent now under his watch,
(17:42):
and there's no accountability for it. It's just cars.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
It's not just hurting the people though that are in
the homeless encampments. I mean, you have businesses who have
said they can't get people to come anymore because they
have so many people living on the sidewalk in front
of their business. I mean, obviously, gavinknews Some knows it's
a problem. When he had the president come in from China,
he removed everybody from the streets and.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Then where did they go? Nobody ever talked about that.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Oh, well, this is important because we've got a communist
coming well.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And to the accountability point, why didn't anyone hold him
accountable when it went back to normal three weeks later
after President Chee King.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That's yes, exactly, I mean crazy, and what did he do?
What did he do in that period of time? Obviously,
that to me proves that he knows homelessness is a problem.
Gavin Newsome knows that he has let the streets of
California become completely out of control, unsafe and unhealthy, totally disgusting,
and yet he is unwilling to come out and say
(18:41):
he will do something for humanity.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, and again endless promises about addressing it. Now he's
trying to shift the blame about three or four months ago.
He's now saying, we have done enough. We have raised
all this money for you. It is up to the
local governments to do their and it's you know what,
he's not what he's not talking about obviously, and I
(19:06):
don't even mention this. When the federal government adopted housing
first in twenty thirteen, the state of California doubled down
on that. They adopted housing first is their one size
fits all approach. In twenty sixteen, Newsom has so all
when when federal or state money is spent on homelessness,
it's largely spent at the local level. It's distributed at
(19:29):
the local level. He has kept a counties and cities
under the thumb of housing first. They have no other
alternative but to build more housing units and subsidize them
with the funding that they get from you know, the state,
and thankfully the federal government funding will give them a
lot more flexibility now. But he is he has created
(19:54):
this problem. It is his problem. He has documented a
million times as saying he, you know, was making it
a priority, he was going to end it. But no
one's holding Hi accountable. So, you know, at the end
of the day, we need to start holding people accountable
for you know, the results, the outcomes of the policies
they support, and accountable for shifting gears when it's not working.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It's something we don't want to talk about I think
because we have so many people in this situation that
have lost contact with their loved ones. It's not necessarily
something that every family deals with. It's not It's kind
of an out of sight, out of mind to the
point where I read an article this morning that said
the city of Kalamazoo is actually in Michigan, is actually
(20:38):
putting people on a bus with ten thousand dollars and
just shipping them out of town. And people are like,
where are they going? And I think it's kind of
an out of sight, out of mind. Oh, we took
care of it. They're not here anymore, okay. But on
the human aspect of this, where are they? Oh, we
got them back with family, We got them with a program.
I don't believe that for a second. So take us
(20:59):
through a little bit. If you do have this situation
where you're dealing with a mom, she comes in with kids.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Every situation is different. I know that.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I think that that is part of the problem, is
that every dynamic, every person has different dynamics.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But when you see that, how do you combat it?
What do you go? How do you immediately respond?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Well, you got to start with what's the definition of success?
Right under the old system, the current system. Housing First,
the definition of success is getting someone keys to an
apartment unit. That's it. There's no tracking of you know,
did they engage in services to make their lives better,
did they get a job, did they increase their income?
(21:37):
Are their kids in school? None of that is happening.
We need to start with a definition of success, which
is something to the effect of at Saint John's, it's
we wanted to support these women in becoming the primary
providers of their families and no longer being dependent on
government and on substances, so that they could provide for
their families. And that was the path you know, everything
(22:00):
we did was the pathway to that. Right. So at
the beginning, you need to really focus on stability. And
for someone who's struggling with addiction, you cannot talk about,
you know, eighteen months ahead. You need to talk about Okay,
let's just focus on being sober for an hour, and
then let's focus on being sober for eight hours, and
(22:22):
then let's focus on twenty four. Right, And it's these
baby steps, and then it's the same with mental illness. Right,
you start to stabilize them, you get them some counseling,
and they start to have hope. They have clarity because
their mind is clear of drugs or alcohol, but they
(22:42):
also start to have hope. And then as they have hope,
you can start to stare step them into more classes,
more services, the hands on employment training, you know, domestic
violence counseling if that was your issue, but you need
to you can't. We know what the north star is,
but we can't be focused with them on the north
(23:03):
star just yet. We need to really start in small
increments and as they build capacity and as they build stamina,
you know, on this pathway, then you start to introduce
more autonomy. Right more they can set, you know, to
some degree, their own rules, and they can start to
be more involved in what the goals are beyond Saint
(23:24):
John's so's it's a very individualized. We call it a
human first approach versus a housing first approach. But you
really have to start with what's your definition of success?
And that's why I'm so delighted by these executive orders
because the President is talking about a definition of success
that is recovery and treatment focused, and that's where we
(23:48):
need to be focused as a system.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
You just told us whether it is mental health or
drug addiction. You are bringing these people into a situation
where it is an hour by our recovery, and yet
the solution on the mainstream is right now to just
put them in a house and walk away. As far
as I'm concerned, what you told me is that we
are putting millions of dollars into failure for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yep. One, you know that the notion that just the
notion that everyone who struggles with homelessness needs a house
that's subsidized for life. That's crazy. We could never build
our you know, when we started this in twenty thirteen,
we already were in an affordable housing crisis as a nation.
(24:34):
The housing that we're setting aside for the homeless is
a portion of that affordable housing. So our solution was
dead on arrival. There was never enough affordable housing back then.
There will never be enough if we you know, because
that housing is there for the individuals that are housed
(24:55):
for life. We will never build our way out of that.
And most of homeless population don't need that. What they
need is the support and the services that lead them
to recovery and restoration and to be able to afford
that housing on their own.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I think right now you're telling us we are in
a situation where not only do we need to change
the way we are managing homelessness in this country, but
we're going to have to have almost This is crazy,
but sounds like a pr campaign around it, because there
are so many people on either side of this issue
that don't have the knowledge that you have that really
there's a solution to get people back on track.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Absolutely there is, and that's why I wrote the book.
It's you know, I in my book told the stories
of ten women who came to us at the depths
of despair. I mean, you would not believe some of
the challenges that they had in front of them. And
they are now thriving, and many are homeowners and you know,
married and healthy relationships, now working. There is a roadmap
(25:59):
to this. It's not going to happen overnight. But if
I can leave your listeners with anything, it's it's to
have hope and these executive that the executive Order is
exactly what we needed to build a system that will
lead the homeless to hopeful, rest restored lives and our
communities to the same.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
But the system still needs to be built. Is that
on a state level or a federal level.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Well, federal funding is going to provide some of the
funding for this, and we're waiting to see, you know,
the executive order happened three weeks ago. We're waiting on
what's called the NOFA that hud will issue that what's
called the Notice of Funding Availability. We'll see what they
are funding, how they're funding it. But the federal government hasn't.
(26:46):
They're the largest funder of homelessness, but they're not the
only ones, and they need states and communities to rally
around and support this new direction as well. But yes,
there's a lot of work ahead because the system, as
we discussed it was all about department keys and nothing
else and that's failed. Man.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. So we were a little distracted
in twenty twenty by some other things, and I mean
rightfully so, but I also think that we've been Honestly,
I do think that distraction is a good word for this,
because I think we've been distracted from homelessness and this
(27:30):
problem for so long. I mean, just look at what
we are seeing from last week. There is a lot
of political chaos in this country, and I think a
lot of times we feel like we have to stand
on one side or another side of this issue. I
think you very clearly just stated there's not two different
sides of this issue. The side is compassionate care and
getting people back the lives they want, and I really
(27:51):
think that the majority of Americans are on that side.
Tell us a little bit about the book before I
let you go, so people can realize that this is
like the one answer. It's multiple different answers, but there
is a solution that can get people back to the
lives that they should be living in this country.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yes, and again, I wanted to provide that hope, but
also provide the roadmap through sharing these stories. So there's
I think eleven women that I profiled, there's so many
hundreds of others. I just wrote a story about another woman, Michelle,
who you know, was there at the tail end of
my time at Saint John's and she's now remarried and
(28:29):
you know, had children and sober and just you know,
thriving in a such a significant way. So I continue
to write these stories. Recovery doesn't happen overnight. But I
really wanted to demonstrate the you know, hope that this
can be turned around and the roadmap for that. I
will say that the other role key here is accountability.
(28:56):
We talked about this a little bit earlier. People human
beings fundamentally need to be productive and they need community.
And one thing that's lacking from this current system are
those two things. Right, there's no accountability. You can be
in housing for life, you never have to worry about
(29:16):
being kicked out, you can use drugs, you can not
address your illnesses, and that's okay in the current system,
and that's a fundamental flaw. The other flaw is isolation
in the addiction and mental health worlds. It's a no
no to isolate people that are struggling with those issues.
(29:38):
So we really need a system that is community, accountability
and restorative focused, which is what I'm very excited to
build as we go forward.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, that is something that I will just say I
think is hard to compete with right now, the idea
of free, because I think people think free is compassion,
but there's pride and ownership and you treat things differently
when you have actually earned the ability to partake in that,
whether it is a home, whether it is public transit,
and so we do have that competing idea right now
(30:08):
out there, and we've seen a lot of crime on
public transit. We've seen even crime on the streets because
there are people who are unhealthy, and that's something that
I think has gotten a lot of pushback to like, oh,
you can't just chalk it up to mental illness.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Well, we have not figured out a way to care
for people who are on the streets.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
I mean, what happened in Michigan at the walmart with
the stabbing, that was a situation of someone who should
have been in care, similar to what happened in North Carolina.
And people are like, you can't say that about the
North Carolina situation. That person should have been in jail. Well,
I mean maybe that still should have been a treatment
system for this person. Because I don't know about you,
(30:47):
but that's just not a natural thing to go out
and murder someone. There's something else going on, and we
as a country have to figure out what the solutions are.
So I appreciate tell us you the name of the
book one more time and where you can get it.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Sure behind the Red Door Battling the Homeless Epidemic, it's
available on Amazon, and I also do a lot of
writing on this topic and that can be access to
all of those pieces at Michelle Steve dot com.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And I think that's important because people who are listening.
I know so many people who listen to this podcast
are interested in public office, They're interested in all these topics,
and a lot of times and when we go out
and we campaign, we don't really know how to talk
about this. So having someone who's been on the front
lines that you can learn and you can read and
always I always encourage people to continue to learn about
(31:33):
these things, to go out there and read this and
then you can talk intelligently about it as well. We
appreciate you so much, Michelle Steve, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Thank you so much for having me and caring enough
to have this discussion on this topic.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Absolutely absolutely, and thank you all for joining the Tutor
Dixon podcast. Remember you can get it wherever you get
your podcasts. You can also watch it on Rumble or
YouTube at tutor Dixon and make sure you join us
next time.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Have a blessed
Host
Tudor Dixon
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