May 9, 2023 • 42 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
As we were working on the Turning Room of Mirrors,
we came across so many fascinating stories that we didn't
have time for in the final series, So today's episode
will sound a little different. I asked each of our
team members to bring a tidbit or story that they
(00:27):
stumbled across and working on the series that fascinated them
or surprised them, and to share it with the group.
So today we're all here to talk. We have Emily Foreman,
our editor, James Trout or JT who sound designed the series,
and Alan Lance Lesser, who co wrote and reported the
(00:50):
series with me. You may remember she's also my sister.
You've heard from her before. So Ailen, what did you
bring today? What's been on your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
As we were researching the world of Ballet, one little
piece that stuck out to me was something that actually
Chloe Angel talked a lot about when we spoke with her,
and that she also wrote about in her book, and
it's point shoes. When I think of Ballet, one of
the first images that comes to mind is point shoes.
One could even argue that they're part of the mystery
(01:25):
and the mystique and actually They were first developed in
the eighteen thirties when a bunch of choreographers were interested
in getting dancers to look like they're floating. But what's
interesting to me is over time since then, well over
one hundred years, point shoes really haven't changed that much.
(01:45):
Obviously they've changed to some degree, but ultimately most point
shoes are still being made out of the same materials
and that's fabric, glue, and paper. They're very uncomfortable, like
it's not fun to be a point shoe. They can
also lead to a bunch of stress fractures in your
feet and toes. They can lead to ankle injuries, they
(02:09):
can lead to horrible blisters and bunions. And also when
you're walking around day to day, usually you put about
thirty percent of your body weight on your big toe.
That's you know, normal day to day walking around. But
when you're on a point shoe and you're on point,
you're putting all of your body weight right on your
(02:30):
big toe and also specifically on the joint next to
your big toe, and that joint isn't used to that,
so it's very painful and it really can lead to
a lot of injury for dancers. Which first of all,
affects their careers or it could affect them long term,
even just day to day living moving around the world.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I've heard this many times.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Poinches are made of fabric, glue, and hair, Yet I
just don't understand where the sport comes from. It sounds
like a paper mache project to me.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I think that's what's kind of shocking about it. They're
not using up to date materials. Usually at least.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
They are like really hard paper and cloth sounds not hard,
but the glue turns it into this very hard thing.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Dancers are often you know, whacking their point shoes on
the wall or on the ground, even using hammers to
try to get them softer. And then also what can
happen is you finally get your shoes to the place
where they're perfect, where they're just the right amount of
firmness and flexibility, but then they start to go too far,
they're too worn in, and then you have to get
(03:40):
a new pair. So also a lot of dancers go
through point shoes very quickly.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
At its best, when your point shoe is broken in,
what does it feel like.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
The shank is bending with your arch and helping to
support you, which is why it's so important that you
have shoes that are not dead are overbroken in.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Also, they need to be firm enough because the box
on some level helps protect the joint by keeping it stiff.
But if it's too stiff, that's also a problem because
then it's harder to move.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
So like seemingly there's like another material that could just
be that.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Stiffness exactly JT.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
And it's funny that you say that because I think
if you contrast what's happened with ballet equipment against what
has happened in sporting gear, I mean, it's really shocking
to contrast those two. So take something like soccer.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
You think of shin.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Guards back in the day, Initially they were just kind
of like padding, and then over time they developed all
kinds of new materials to the point where today as
a player, you can pick how heavy your shin guards are,
how hard they are, how they fit you, how big
they are, all these different things. Or even cleats, they've
(04:54):
changed a lot, and when turf was invented, cleats totally
changed to help protect players against turf injuries. Or you
think about American football helmets and how obviously those are
very important for protection but football helmets are lab tested
and the NFL actually requires players to wear certain helmets
(05:17):
that don't fall under this not recommended category by these
lab tests, and it's constantly changing year to year, whereas
in ballet it really isn't changing that much. Now, there
have been some changes, some companies have tried playing around
with material it's not like no one has tried it.
(05:38):
For example, there's a company called Gainer Mindon that in
the nineties came out with a point shoe that had
a box and a shank of malleable plastic. So basically
where the toes go in the shoe and kind of
the sole or the base of the shoe are made
of this plastic that can adjust. And the nice thing
about these shoes is that they also last longer because
(06:02):
they're built with these materials that don't wear down as quickly.
They're built to last at a very specific level of flexibility.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
That sounds good.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It does sound good.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
But weirdly, they just didn't really take off. I mean,
there's still an existence, but they're just not popular. And
actually ballet schools across the country, many of them do
not allow dancers who are learning to dance on point
to use Gainer Minten's. The argument is that these shoes
(06:32):
actually make it easier to pop up on point, So
some teachers argue that you're not building the muscles correctly.
But the thing about these shoes is that they are
much more comfortable and they're supposed to be way safer.
According to the founder of the shoe company, Gainner Minden,
they are quote the first and the only point shoe
(06:55):
that was ever designed with dancers health and safety in mind.
And so while there are some dancers who use these shoes,
ultimately they're just not popular. And Chloe Angel argues that
point shoes could be made even safer than Gainer Minden's
with the technology we have today, for example, if they
made the shoes straighter and more wide up until the
(07:18):
tip of the toe. But they're just not made safer
or more comfortable. What it comes down to, most likely
is the ballet world's concerned with the line and the
esthetic that the shoe needs to look a very specific way,
and even I mean going back to balanching, he had
a very specific preference on point shoe. He preferred freeds,
(07:41):
like the old school point shoes that you typically see.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I remember one of my classmates got a pair of
Gainer Mendens. I remember, you're like, oh, my god, wouldn't
it be cool to have comfier point shoes. But also
I did feel like there is a little bit of
stigma of oh, they're more comfortable, and so there's like
maybe some kind of weakness if you choose to wear
Gainer mindons. So I didn't try them for that reason.
(08:07):
And now looking back, I'm like, Erico, why wouldn't you
just try them? I mean, my guess is it's not
like there's been some in depth clinical study on the
anatomy of the foot during ballet steps and how much
the muscle is being used in these different types of shoes.
I do wonder to what extent that's based on, like
some scientific truths versus a fear of changing the norm.
(08:31):
I think you do have to take a risk to
try something new, to try to be safer.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
It's like a fine line between like this idea that
it's just not it hasn't been embraced. It's kind of
like suffering is a necessary part of the leadism involved,
otherwise it's not ballet. It's like a fine line between
that versus what I'm hearing you're saying of, Oh, you're
not going to build this foundation that you need, You're
(08:56):
not going to build the muscles that you need to
do this thing. But what does that actually mean? Are
they thinking about like long term outcomes? What is implied
in this not being embraced.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Chloe also makes that point that teachers across the country
do think of it as sort of a cheat, and
it is not just implicitly but kind of explicitly look
down upon, and even some celebrity teachers, so teachers that
are like well known in the field have kind of
come out against it. And one even said ballet isn't
(09:34):
about health. It's an art form. And that's true. You know,
ballet is an art form, but that doesn't mean you
can't consider health.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
In that it reminds me of hockey players who refuse
to wear helmets when they'd made the rule change and
they like literally grandfathered in certain people that were like,
I refuse to wear a helmet while I play hockey.
You look back in your life like, one, those guys
are crazy. They're playing an insanely physical game like that,
(10:07):
And also two, I think in the same way that
ballet has like It's changed over time, right, we demand more,
The game is faster, the athletes train harder, just like
with ballet. And I think if we're going to continue
to push the speed and the style that we want,
then you're going to have to make some changes to
(10:29):
the footwear or the equipment or whatever it is. I
think that's just progress.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
That's such a good point, JT. Because you're totally right
that the technical expectations are constantly increasing for dancers. Every
generation of dancers is like, you're expected to be able
to have your leg higher, do more piroetes at once.
So it does make sense that the gear would change
with that, you know, greater level of force et cetera
that you're putting on the shoes.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
It does I think all come back to culture. Why
is that the world doesn't want to be open to
these types of changes. Yeah, it's interesting how certain cultures
are maybe that much more resistant to change.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
When we come back Tchaikovsky's Lost Potada and more stories
from our team, stay tuned. I'm curious, JT, what's been
on your mind coming into this conversation.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
So in the series, we mentioned this ballet called the
Tchaikovsky Potada, basically this famous piece that bouncing choreographed to
music by the Russian composer Peter Tchaikovsky, and I realized
that there's all this history behind the music for the
PoTA Da. I kind of went down this rabbit hole
(12:05):
waiting between edits. So I was trying to find the
specific one that Balanchine used, and I was frustrated because
I was like, oh, I'm seeing that, like this might
have come from Swan Lake. But then I was kind
of like, why would Balanchine take a section of Swan
(12:27):
Lake and just use it? And what I found was, actually,
it is a section of Swan Lake that we have
probably never heard before or seen before Balanchine used it.
The story is very complex and has a lot of
really complicated Russian names in it. So there we go.
(12:47):
I'm gonna try to say them all. In eighteen seventy
ish eighteen seventies, let's say Tchaikowsky gets commissioned to write
his first ballet, and at the time, ballet music was
pretty much like crap. If you were a composer in
(13:09):
the ilk of Tchaikovsky at the time, you were like,
this is just kind of repetitive garbage, right, like you
don't go to the ballet for the music essentially, so
he gets this thing. He's like, yeah, cool, like I
could use the money. Also, yeah, ballet is great. He
starts writing Swan Lake. He writes a lot of it
pretty fast, and then he sort of gets stuck on
(13:32):
the instrumentation. Blah blah blah blah. He takes the score
that he has written so far to the choreographer, Julius Raisinger,
who is like this kind of like mid, like super
mid choreographer. This is like, this is like this is
just what I've been reading. I'm sure he was a
(13:52):
very nice guy. He's like, this is crazy complicated. The
dancers complain about the music in the rehearsal. They're like, well,
we can't chore to this and the other thing. At
the time, choreographers and dancers actually had a majority stake
in the control and sort of like composers were like
not again, because the music was like very repetitive and
kind of easier to dance to, right. It was like
(14:14):
it was an afterthing, you know. So these dancers are like,
you're making this sort of complex thing that's really fast.
We can't dance this, we can't do our normal stuff.
So they don't like it. So this choreographer racinger starts
chopping it. I read somewhere it's like they cut like
a third of the original score out just because it
(14:37):
was like too much. Meanwhile, this like other drama, starts happening,
where the dancer that basically this whole thing has been
choreographed for who's playing the lead. This name is insanely complicated.
I'm going to drop it in the chat just so
you can see what I'm trying to pronounce. This prima
(15:01):
ballerina Anna Sobishansky, Basically they choreographed the majority of Swan
like for her. Then drama, she's kind of seeing this
Russian aligarch who gives her a bunch of jewels. But
then it's like I'm not going to marry you. He's
(15:23):
like see you later, my right, So they premiere the
ballet with her second and everyone hates it. Right, they
like there had have been a bunch of stuff that
it leaked that the dancers didn't like the music. Obviously
with the change of the main ballerina. Basically, the reviews
(15:45):
were like this is crap, Like the music is terrible,
Like we don't get it. I imagine that if you
make like a really complicated score and then the choreography
is struggling to keep up, like it only accentuates how
different the score is, do you know what I mean? Like, so,
I'm sure people were just like, what is this like
(16:06):
hot garbage that we're watching? So somehow Anna, yes, she
comes back. There's some some sort of amends are made.
Like a month later, they're like, we're going to go
to Moscow, and she's like, well, I got to change
this really specific section in act three. I don't like
(16:27):
the patata that's there that was originally written. So I'm
going to go to Moscow and have this ringer ballet
composer Ludwig Minkus rewrite a section of act three.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Which is understandable if you come back to this production
and has terrible reviews and they're like, now we're going
to go on tour and you're going to be the
star of this trash production that no one likes.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
So Tchaikowsky gets win that this is happening, and he's like, no,
I should write all the music for my composition. They'd
already rechoreographed all this stuff for this new patada that
had been written into Act three. So Tchaikovsky is like, cool,
(17:16):
I'll just write a score so you don't have to
change the choreography. But like, I want to mess with
like all of the notation and orchestration of the piece.
So he goes in and he changes it. They do
like another run of shows that's longer, and people are like, yeah,
this is fine whatever, But then it goes away like
(17:38):
it's just done. They drop it from the Balshoy. They're like,
we're not going to do Swan Lake anymore, which is bizarre.
Right when we started this podcast, I was like, what
ballets do I know? The Nutcracker and Swan Lake both
Tchaikowsky works also, which is funny. Dchaikowski dies, so I
(17:58):
think there's like probably some generally in his work. So
they pick it back up, but they get a new
choreographer hit. Actually Tchaikowsky's brother rewrites a lot of the
story of Swan Lake. They pull the Act one music
back in to this Act three Patada and remakes Swan Lake,
(18:18):
and like that's the Swan Lake everyone Ben falls in
love with. That's like the Dance of the Black Swan, right,
Like that's the return of the of the original Act
one music comes back in and like, that's what we know?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Is that?
Speaker 5 (18:32):
So basically there's this whole section, this section that Tchaikowsky
had rewritten in Act three that wasn't included in the
original score. So it wasn't until nineteen fifty three when
a balshroy arkivist finds these pages that he rewrote, and
that's what balancing hears, and he's like, I have to
(18:56):
do something with this. He makes what's now known as
the Tchaikowsky Potida, which premieres in nineteen sixty. It's like
this lost piece that was kind of put aside because
it was way too ahead of its time in the
ballet composition world. Then you have this choreographer who is
(19:19):
changing ballet and he gravitates to this piece. It was
almost like Tchaikowsky was waiting for someone like a choreographer
like Balanching to create this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
That's the same piece that Sophie saw decades later and
was so inspired by the big movement she saw and
then decided I want to dance balanching from that piece.
It's just funny to think how like the legacy of
one piece continues to change people's lives.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
The general plot of Swan Lake, like over the course
of history has been like the end of Swan Lake
has change so many times depending on who's putting it on,
Like it seems like there's at least fifteen different endings
or different sections, and people cut stuff and move stuff.
You would just assume that it's such a classic that
(20:14):
it would never be touched, especially like coming off our
whole series where we're talking about how ballet doesn't want.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
To change anything.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Yeah, and like, look at this piece that had so
many changes.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I love hearing stories like this something that now is
considered like the greatest of the great and then you
go back to like when it first came out and
people were like, this is crap, no one likes it.
Or Tchaikovsky wrote all this amazing ballet music, but the
first one he writes, the dancers are mad at him
because they're like, we can't dance to this. I just
(20:48):
find that so encouraging to not always follow the norm
of what's always been done in whatever art form that
you're in love it, Okay, Emily, how about you?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
So, something I've been thinking about a lot since our
series rap is the dancer Holly Howard. So we talked
about Holly in our mus episode. She's one of Balancine's
first American muses around the time when he first debuted
sarahad around nineteen thirty four. She was among that first
(21:54):
class of dancers. And what we discussed about her in
the series is that she and Balanchine were what it
seemed like, romantically involved, and she got four abortions by Balanchine.
This is from Kurstine's diaries, and we kind of leave
her story there, and for us, that was like a
(22:15):
moving anecdote that illustrates this pattern that we were noticing
in lots of historians of notice in how Balanchine treated
his muses. He'd fall in love, maybe get romantically involved,
and then he'd inevitably sort of move on from them
to his next muse. So that's where we left Holly,
(22:35):
and I was just kind of curious what happened to
her and her career and if I could glean anything
more about her, and that was quite difficult to do.
I think we were trying to find out if she
was even still alive. That was hard to do. There's
no obituaries or anything like that about Holly Howard. But
yet she was one of these iconic muses in Balanchine's life,
(22:58):
so wow, I decided to take a crack at it,
just to retrace my steps a little bit. The first
thing we did was enlist a friend of the podcast
who happens to be a private investigator. Now that sounds
a little creepy, it's not what you think it was. Basically,
(23:19):
he directed us to ancestry dot com, which is a
very commonly used resource that we should use pro tip
pro tip, something we learned in recording this series. And
then I also found some additional information in this book
Mister b. George Balanjean's Twentieth Century by Jennifer Homans, there's
(23:42):
a little bit more on Holly. So basically, here's what
I can tell you about Holly. She was born in
nineteen eighteen in Virginia. She had a twin brother named Kent.
The Howards, they were this big military family. Their father
was a general it looks like under Patent and Eisenhower,
(24:02):
and she sort of grew up wherever he was stationed,
which was mostly in the Philippines anyway. So Holly got
involved in ballet from a very young age, and I
know that she spent some time training with a woman
named Catherine Littlefield, and this would be years before Balanjin
(24:23):
would show up in America. It feels like often the
way we talk about Balancine's debut in this country, it's
almost as if he sort of descended upon the US
and just like collected this motley crew of dancers that
didn't know any better, and just like delivered ballet to
the people.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
There was this.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
New Yorker description of an event that they did talking
about Sarah Nod where they say, quote, he was a
ballet choreographer and almost nobody in the United States could
dance back. He opened a school, but to judge from
the photos, the young women he was able to collect
were mostly rather plump and bewildered.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Burn Okay, I know it's that kind of exultings, and
the truth was that really ballet was here.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
This is a point that Teresa Ruth Howard makes. We
talked to Teresa Ruth Howard in one of our episodes.
You have many examples of this as early as eighteen
forty six. There's George Washington Smith. There's this guy from Philadelphia.
He was doing his thing. He's believed to be a
mixed race man, and he danced in the premier of Giselle.
(25:40):
Here in the US, there's Dorothy Alexander, who founded a
school in Atlanta in nineteen twenty nine that would later
become the Atlanta Ballet. So yeah, lots of examples of
people doing ballet here, teaching people ballet here before balancing came.
(26:00):
And so then you have Catherine Littlefield. Catherine Littlefield had
this school in Philly, and Balan Sheen when he was
starting his company, recruited a bunch of dancers from her school,
and one of those dancers was Holly Howard. So then
at this point, I believe Holly's parents are divorced and Lois,
Holly's mother, moves Holly and her twin brother Kent to
(26:24):
New York, where Holly ends up in Balancine's school, and
Lois devotes a ton of time to her daughter's career.
I talked to Holly's niece, who told me a little
bit about her aunt and has fond memories of her.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
That's amazing nice sleuthing Emily to find her.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
Wow, I did call six of her nieces and nephews.
These would be Kent's children, so her niece told me
that basically her grandmother, Lois, Holly's mother, devoted a ton
of time to Holly's career and was essentially the company chefone.
This is also backed up by Lincoln Kirstine's diaries that
(27:04):
Lois was Holly's escort and probably spent a lot of
time with Balancing.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Two.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
It seems like Holly and Balanching were in a relationship
for over a year. Her niece did mention once that
Balancing wanted to marry Holly. I don't know what to
make of that. This is where we hear the sort
of abortion rumor. It was maybe a fourth or fifth abortion,
and I was curious to a little bit about the
(27:32):
context of what that would have been like to sort
of get an abortion. In the nineteen thirties in New York,
it wasn't an uncommon use of birth control. Obviously it
was illegal. There were like safe hygienic options through midwives
that you could get where the outcome could go well.
But at the same time, because it's illegal, there's lots
(27:53):
of like underground, dangerous options too. We don't really know
the conditions that Holly dealt with or the form that
those abortions took. I mean, she's also dancing all of
the time and exerting her body in these ways, so
I kind of wonder how that came into play too.
Then Holmans writes about this other point about Holly's mother,
(28:15):
how she blamed George for ruining her young daughter and
she threatened to have him deported.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Whoa ruining because they had this romantic relationship.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
And yeah, and it seemed like, based on comments made
by dancers, people knew about the abortions, people knew about
this relationship. She felt it ruined her daughter's reputation. And
I'm even hesitant to repeat this, but there is a
really troubling footnote from this guy, John Terrorist. He was
(28:50):
a former balancing dancer and he said, they say no
proof Holly is running a whorehouse in Boston. Everybody said
she became a whore and it was because of him.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
When we come back, we'll have more on Holly Howard's life,
plus we get final reactions from our team on this season.
Stay tuned. So what's your takeaway about what we do
(29:46):
know about Holly Howard?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I don't know. I don't know what to make of this.
It sounds very messy.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
You have Lois potentially trying to get Balanchine deported. There
is some evidence to show that an immigration agent came
to question Balanchine, but ultimately like nothing came of it.
And it's kind of where we left Holly in our story,
which was we don't really know what happened to her career.
Speaker 5 (30:13):
That feels just like such a move that I wish
I could say like we've outgrown as a society, but
I feel like that happens all the time. If you
leave some organization negatively, they're going to do whatever they
can to erase you from their records.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Right, Yeah, it does feel like she's been erased, and
that's not the case with all of the dancers of
that time. You know, there is documentation of dancers and
the careers that they had. And the niece said, because
I asked her if did Holly keep a diary or anything,
And the niece said, my mother was a protective person
(30:53):
and was not a chatty kathy. She, if there was
such a thing, may have decided it would be better
to not see the light of day. And I understand
to an extent, like, you know, what is the value
in continuing to talk about these details. At the same time,
we're sort of left at this cliff, this precipice where
(31:15):
the abortion comment is the last thing we've heard, and
it is kind of told as this like moment of
I don't know, shame or tragedy or like ending of
a career, a rature of her life as a dancer,
And I mean the niece sort of admitted like, on
the other hand, that means we don't know what happened
to her. We don't know some of these details.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Some me what we want to know.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
It might be a different story, it might be a
different story of agency, but.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
We can't know.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
We don't know actually how Holly felt about it, like
how much choice that she felt she had. And I
kind of crave those details because I crave a document
of that time and like how people were thinking about
that choice, just to see her as more of an
independent person.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I'm so curious what she was like as a person
and what their relationship felt like, like what was their
relationship dynamic, And of course there are some power structures
at play, because Balancine was her boss when they were together.
But yeah, I feel like I don't I still don't know.
I don't know her. You know, I feel like I
still don't know her.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And also I just kind of wonder about her personal
life after Balanchine. Did she have other partners? You know,
how much did her relationship with Balancine also impact her
personal life from there on out?
Speaker 4 (32:42):
She never married, she never had kids of her own.
Who's around fifty years old when she died. She died
of cancer. The niece has some at least recollection or
image of her, having been surrounded by a lot of friends.
The niece's take on her aunt, it's like, well, she
(33:02):
was just Aunt Holly to me. We loved her, she
loved us. It seemed like she poured a lot of
affection into her nieces and nephews. She remembers her teaching dance,
and she recalls one visit somewhere along the line of
like visiting Holly, and she says that I remember I
had learned a dance step someplace in our travels, and
(33:25):
I was so proud to show it to her. I
thought I had it just right, and she looked at
me and smiled and said, no, that's not the way
it goes, and then she performed it for me. Oh,
and I'm sure with exact precision, and I couldn't quite
see the difference between what.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I had done and she had done.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I don't know that's it.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
I've been reflecting a little bit on this whole series,
and one thing that's really struck me has been some
of the responses from listeners. And we've gotten some really
long emails and letters from listeners sharing their stories that
have just been incredibly moving. And they've been from people
(34:27):
with all kinds of dance backgrounds, including long term professional
dancers at elite companies, as well as people who just
studied a little ballet as a kid. But I think
one of the things that really surprised me actually was
that the episode that got the most active vocal response
from listeners was episode six, and that's the episode in
(34:50):
which Ayleen and I talk about our lives and my
experience with ballet. And this is an episode that I
was really nervous to put out there. I think we
were not sure if we should publish it at all.
When we recorded it, we were like, we probably won't
even use this, but let's just record a conversation and
see what happens. But we decided to include it, and
(35:14):
we just immediately got so many notes from people who listened,
who wrote their life stories in these emails and talked
about crying as they listened. It was very moving. I've
never gotten such a wave of response to an episode,
(35:35):
and I think it was actually a life lesson for me.
There's a lot of media there, movies or TV shows
and storybooks about professional dancers, and I think for a
lot of people who study ballet, it's like you feel
close to it. You're like, this was a big part
of my life years ago, but at the same time,
(35:55):
you don't feel like you're part of it, and you
don't think you can claim it as your own, and
so you end up in this weird limbo of kind
of having your history invalidated and erased because actually, like
most people who interact with ballet, their story is much
more similar to my story than to all of these
professional dancers. I have often felt like a weird, lone
(36:19):
person who it's like ballet was a big part of
my life and then I totally left it and there's
no one like me. But actually there are tons of
people like me. We just don't talk about it. So
that blew my mind a little bit.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah, it was exciting to hear from people and then
to hear that they connected with it, And I feel
like that feeling is so relatable beyond ballet, Like I
feel like we all have a part of our past
where we didn't see something through fully, or maybe we
actually kind of did, but we don't perceive it that way,
and then we just close that part of our stories.
(36:56):
I just think that's like a human thing, And in
a way, I think it was nice for you, Erica, too,
to almost be validated by these listeners. I think you
did have a lot of imposter syndrome going into that episode,
and you did feel uncomfortable, but I think hearing that
from listeners and then actually hearing their stories was impactful
for you on a personal level.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
So one thing on that universality point that really stood
out to me was this one letter from one of
our listeners, and I'm just going to read a section
of it. She says, this episode helped me acknowledge that
I'm not as alone in choosing a path away from
my true love as I thought. My passion was music.
(37:41):
I entered the local music school at age five, and
by the time I entered high school, I had been
playing several instruments, writing music and singing in choirs for
almost eleven years. Becoming a professional musician and or composer.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Was my goal.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
It was my whole life, just like ballet was for Erica.
When I turned six, my mother took all the money
out of a savings account she'd opened for me when
I was ten and bought me my own instrument. Since
it's a local specialty instrument and not as common as violins, flutes, etc.
Every single one has to be handmade. We waited almost
(38:17):
a whole year, and finally I got it. No more
renting from the school, and then I burned out. I
had been pursuing music for fourteen years and was about
to choose a university. I've been planning to go to
the National Music Academy to become professional, but it all
went boof. I used to find unimaginable freedom when playing,
and now all I felt was dread, fear, and loss
(38:40):
of identity. I mean, I knew I didn't want to
do this anymore, but I had no idea who I
was Without music, the structure, the lessons, the daily practices.
Now I had so much free time, but nothing to
do with it. Erico was spot on when she said, so,
what is me because I'm me? And what is me
because of Ballet? I still feel the same exact way
(39:02):
when I think about the relationship I had with music.
I think I've finally started to find me again. But
oh boy, has it been difficult. I still have my instrument,
but it's been about three years since I touched it.
Maybe someday I'll pick it up again, I'm not sure.
So I thought that that was pretty incredible that this
person wanted to reach out because something had resonated so
(39:24):
true to her and what she heard in your experience.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I was talking to a really good friend of mine
the other day on the phone, and she had listened
to the podcast. She was my college roommate, and she
said a line that really struck her from that episode
between Aileen and me was how we had said that
it sometimes felt like Ballet was my one true love.
(39:53):
And then Aileen came back in the conversation and said,
you know, I think that's how you perceive it, Erica.
In other words, that it might not have actually been
like my quote unquote one true love, but that's sometimes
how I feel about it, and that's when I get
emotional about it. And my friend pointed out that that
(40:13):
perception might also be based in this all or nothing
attitude that you have as a kid, where you have
to give everything, and it's almost like when you're an
abusive relationship, and the highs and lows of the abusive
relationship and the way it kind of takes over your
life can make you feel like it's the most intense
version of love that exists and just like keeps you
(40:35):
in the relationship and makes you feel like it's this
great love. And I'm not saying that Ballet was like
an abusive relationship, but I do think that the intensity
of it and the requirement that it's a big commitment
at a young age, you get caught up in it
and it can turn it into something that makes the
loss of it even greater and just intensifies all of
your emotions around it.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, And as humans, it's like the intense things, whatever
they are, sometimes feel good, but that doesn't mean they're
the only thing that can make you happy absolutely or
the only worthwhile thing.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts.
It's written and produced by Alan Lance Lesser and Me.
Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed
(41:48):
by James Trout. Jessica Carisa is our assistant producer, Andrea
assoahe is our digital producer. Our executive producers are John
Paratti and Jessica Alpert at Rocco Punch, I Getrina Norbel
and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. For photos and more
(42:11):
details on the series, follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch,
and you can reach out via email The Turning at
rococopunch dot com. I'm Erica Lance. Thanks for listening.
As we were working on the Turning Room of Mirrors,
we came across so many fascinating stories that we didn't
have time for in the final series, So today's episode
will sound a little different. I asked each of our
team members to bring a tidbit or story that they
(00:27):
stumbled across and working on the series that fascinated them
or surprised them, and to share it with the group.
So today we're all here to talk. We have Emily Foreman,
our editor, James Trout or JT who sound designed the series,
and Alan Lance Lesser, who co wrote and reported the
(00:50):
series with me. You may remember she's also my sister.
You've heard from her before. So Ailen, what did you
bring today? What's been on your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
As we were researching the world of Ballet, one little
piece that stuck out to me was something that actually
Chloe Angel talked a lot about when we spoke with her,
and that she also wrote about in her book, and
it's point shoes. When I think of Ballet, one of
the first images that comes to mind is point shoes.
One could even argue that they're part of the mystery
(01:25):
and the mystique and actually They were first developed in
the eighteen thirties when a bunch of choreographers were interested
in getting dancers to look like they're floating. But what's
interesting to me is over time since then, well over
one hundred years, point shoes really haven't changed that much.
(01:45):
Obviously they've changed to some degree, but ultimately most point
shoes are still being made out of the same materials
and that's fabric, glue, and paper. They're very uncomfortable, like
it's not fun to be a point shoe. They can
also lead to a bunch of stress fractures in your
feet and toes. They can lead to ankle injuries, they
(02:09):
can lead to horrible blisters and bunions. And also when
you're walking around day to day, usually you put about
thirty percent of your body weight on your big toe.
That's you know, normal day to day walking around. But
when you're on a point shoe and you're on point,
you're putting all of your body weight right on your
(02:30):
big toe and also specifically on the joint next to
your big toe, and that joint isn't used to that,
so it's very painful and it really can lead to
a lot of injury for dancers. Which first of all,
affects their careers or it could affect them long term,
even just day to day living moving around the world.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I've heard this many times.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Poinches are made of fabric, glue, and hair, Yet I
just don't understand where the sport comes from. It sounds
like a paper mache project to me.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I think that's what's kind of shocking about it. They're
not using up to date materials. Usually at least.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
They are like really hard paper and cloth sounds not hard,
but the glue turns it into this very hard thing.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Dancers are often you know, whacking their point shoes on
the wall or on the ground, even using hammers to
try to get them softer. And then also what can
happen is you finally get your shoes to the place
where they're perfect, where they're just the right amount of
firmness and flexibility, but then they start to go too far,
they're too worn in, and then you have to get
(03:40):
a new pair. So also a lot of dancers go
through point shoes very quickly.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
At its best, when your point shoe is broken in,
what does it feel like.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
The shank is bending with your arch and helping to
support you, which is why it's so important that you
have shoes that are not dead are overbroken in.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Also, they need to be firm enough because the box
on some level helps protect the joint by keeping it stiff.
But if it's too stiff, that's also a problem because
then it's harder to move.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
So like seemingly there's like another material that could just
be that.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Stiffness exactly JT.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
And it's funny that you say that because I think
if you contrast what's happened with ballet equipment against what
has happened in sporting gear, I mean, it's really shocking
to contrast those two. So take something like soccer.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
You think of shin.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Guards back in the day, Initially they were just kind
of like padding, and then over time they developed all
kinds of new materials to the point where today as
a player, you can pick how heavy your shin guards are,
how hard they are, how they fit you, how big
they are, all these different things. Or even cleats, they've
(04:54):
changed a lot, and when turf was invented, cleats totally
changed to help protect players against turf injuries. Or you
think about American football helmets and how obviously those are
very important for protection but football helmets are lab tested
and the NFL actually requires players to wear certain helmets
(05:17):
that don't fall under this not recommended category by these
lab tests, and it's constantly changing year to year, whereas
in ballet it really isn't changing that much. Now, there
have been some changes, some companies have tried playing around
with material it's not like no one has tried it.
(05:38):
For example, there's a company called Gainer Mindon that in
the nineties came out with a point shoe that had
a box and a shank of malleable plastic. So basically
where the toes go in the shoe and kind of
the sole or the base of the shoe are made
of this plastic that can adjust. And the nice thing
about these shoes is that they also last longer because
(06:02):
they're built with these materials that don't wear down as quickly.
They're built to last at a very specific level of flexibility.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
That sounds good.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It does sound good.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
But weirdly, they just didn't really take off. I mean,
there's still an existence, but they're just not popular. And
actually ballet schools across the country, many of them do
not allow dancers who are learning to dance on point
to use Gainer Minten's. The argument is that these shoes
(06:32):
actually make it easier to pop up on point, So
some teachers argue that you're not building the muscles correctly.
But the thing about these shoes is that they are
much more comfortable and they're supposed to be way safer.
According to the founder of the shoe company, Gainner Minden,
they are quote the first and the only point shoe
(06:55):
that was ever designed with dancers health and safety in mind.
And so while there are some dancers who use these shoes,
ultimately they're just not popular. And Chloe Angel argues that
point shoes could be made even safer than Gainer Minden's
with the technology we have today, for example, if they
made the shoes straighter and more wide up until the
(07:18):
tip of the toe. But they're just not made safer
or more comfortable. What it comes down to, most likely
is the ballet world's concerned with the line and the
esthetic that the shoe needs to look a very specific way,
and even I mean going back to balanching, he had
a very specific preference on point shoe. He preferred freeds,
(07:41):
like the old school point shoes that you typically see.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I remember one of my classmates got a pair of
Gainer Mendens. I remember, you're like, oh, my god, wouldn't
it be cool to have comfier point shoes. But also
I did feel like there is a little bit of
stigma of oh, they're more comfortable, and so there's like
maybe some kind of weakness if you choose to wear
Gainer mindons. So I didn't try them for that reason.
(08:07):
And now looking back, I'm like, Erico, why wouldn't you
just try them? I mean, my guess is it's not
like there's been some in depth clinical study on the
anatomy of the foot during ballet steps and how much
the muscle is being used in these different types of shoes.
I do wonder to what extent that's based on, like
some scientific truths versus a fear of changing the norm.
(08:31):
I think you do have to take a risk to
try something new, to try to be safer.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
It's like a fine line between like this idea that
it's just not it hasn't been embraced. It's kind of
like suffering is a necessary part of the leadism involved,
otherwise it's not ballet. It's like a fine line between
that versus what I'm hearing you're saying of, Oh, you're
not going to build this foundation that you need, You're
(08:56):
not going to build the muscles that you need to
do this thing. But what does that actually mean? Are
they thinking about like long term outcomes? What is implied
in this not being embraced.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Chloe also makes that point that teachers across the country
do think of it as sort of a cheat, and
it is not just implicitly but kind of explicitly look
down upon, and even some celebrity teachers, so teachers that
are like well known in the field have kind of
come out against it. And one even said ballet isn't
(09:34):
about health. It's an art form. And that's true. You know,
ballet is an art form, but that doesn't mean you
can't consider health.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
In that it reminds me of hockey players who refuse
to wear helmets when they'd made the rule change and
they like literally grandfathered in certain people that were like,
I refuse to wear a helmet while I play hockey.
You look back in your life like, one, those guys
are crazy. They're playing an insanely physical game like that,
(10:07):
And also two, I think in the same way that
ballet has like It's changed over time, right, we demand more,
The game is faster, the athletes train harder, just like
with ballet. And I think if we're going to continue
to push the speed and the style that we want,
then you're going to have to make some changes to
(10:29):
the footwear or the equipment or whatever it is. I
think that's just progress.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
That's such a good point, JT. Because you're totally right
that the technical expectations are constantly increasing for dancers. Every
generation of dancers is like, you're expected to be able
to have your leg higher, do more piroetes at once.
So it does make sense that the gear would change
with that, you know, greater level of force et cetera
that you're putting on the shoes.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
It does I think all come back to culture. Why
is that the world doesn't want to be open to
these types of changes. Yeah, it's interesting how certain cultures
are maybe that much more resistant to change.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
When we come back Tchaikovsky's Lost Potada and more stories
from our team, stay tuned. I'm curious, JT, what's been
on your mind coming into this conversation.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
So in the series, we mentioned this ballet called the
Tchaikovsky Potada, basically this famous piece that bouncing choreographed to
music by the Russian composer Peter Tchaikovsky, and I realized
that there's all this history behind the music for the
PoTA Da. I kind of went down this rabbit hole
(12:05):
waiting between edits. So I was trying to find the
specific one that Balanchine used, and I was frustrated because
I was like, oh, I'm seeing that, like this might
have come from Swan Lake. But then I was kind
of like, why would Balanchine take a section of Swan
(12:27):
Lake and just use it? And what I found was, actually,
it is a section of Swan Lake that we have
probably never heard before or seen before Balanchine used it.
The story is very complex and has a lot of
really complicated Russian names in it. So there we go.
(12:47):
I'm gonna try to say them all. In eighteen seventy
ish eighteen seventies, let's say Tchaikowsky gets commissioned to write
his first ballet, and at the time, ballet music was
pretty much like crap. If you were a composer in
(13:09):
the ilk of Tchaikovsky at the time, you were like,
this is just kind of repetitive garbage, right, like you
don't go to the ballet for the music essentially, so
he gets this thing. He's like, yeah, cool, like I
could use the money. Also, yeah, ballet is great. He
starts writing Swan Lake. He writes a lot of it
pretty fast, and then he sort of gets stuck on
(13:32):
the instrumentation. Blah blah blah blah. He takes the score
that he has written so far to the choreographer, Julius Raisinger,
who is like this kind of like mid, like super
mid choreographer. This is like, this is like this is
just what I've been reading. I'm sure he was a
(13:52):
very nice guy. He's like, this is crazy complicated. The
dancers complain about the music in the rehearsal. They're like, well,
we can't chore to this and the other thing. At
the time, choreographers and dancers actually had a majority stake
in the control and sort of like composers were like
not again, because the music was like very repetitive and
kind of easier to dance to, right. It was like
(14:14):
it was an afterthing, you know. So these dancers are like,
you're making this sort of complex thing that's really fast.
We can't dance this, we can't do our normal stuff.
So they don't like it. So this choreographer racinger starts
chopping it. I read somewhere it's like they cut like
a third of the original score out just because it
(14:37):
was like too much. Meanwhile, this like other drama, starts happening,
where the dancer that basically this whole thing has been
choreographed for who's playing the lead. This name is insanely complicated.
I'm going to drop it in the chat just so
you can see what I'm trying to pronounce. This prima
(15:01):
ballerina Anna Sobishansky, Basically they choreographed the majority of Swan
like for her. Then drama, she's kind of seeing this
Russian aligarch who gives her a bunch of jewels. But
then it's like I'm not going to marry you. He's
(15:23):
like see you later, my right, So they premiere the
ballet with her second and everyone hates it. Right, they
like there had have been a bunch of stuff that
it leaked that the dancers didn't like the music. Obviously
with the change of the main ballerina. Basically, the reviews
(15:45):
were like this is crap, Like the music is terrible,
Like we don't get it. I imagine that if you
make like a really complicated score and then the choreography
is struggling to keep up, like it only accentuates how
different the score is, do you know what I mean? Like, so,
I'm sure people were just like, what is this like
(16:06):
hot garbage that we're watching? So somehow Anna, yes, she
comes back. There's some some sort of amends are made.
Like a month later, they're like, we're going to go
to Moscow, and she's like, well, I got to change
this really specific section in act three. I don't like
(16:27):
the patata that's there that was originally written. So I'm
going to go to Moscow and have this ringer ballet
composer Ludwig Minkus rewrite a section of act three.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Which is understandable if you come back to this production
and has terrible reviews and they're like, now we're going
to go on tour and you're going to be the
star of this trash production that no one likes.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
So Tchaikowsky gets win that this is happening, and he's like, no,
I should write all the music for my composition. They'd
already rechoreographed all this stuff for this new patada that
had been written into Act three. So Tchaikovsky is like, cool,
(17:16):
I'll just write a score so you don't have to
change the choreography. But like, I want to mess with
like all of the notation and orchestration of the piece.
So he goes in and he changes it. They do
like another run of shows that's longer, and people are like, yeah,
this is fine whatever, But then it goes away like
(17:38):
it's just done. They drop it from the Balshoy. They're like,
we're not going to do Swan Lake anymore, which is bizarre.
Right when we started this podcast, I was like, what
ballets do I know? The Nutcracker and Swan Lake both
Tchaikowsky works also, which is funny. Dchaikowski dies, so I
(17:58):
think there's like probably some generally in his work. So
they pick it back up, but they get a new
choreographer hit. Actually Tchaikowsky's brother rewrites a lot of the
story of Swan Lake. They pull the Act one music
back in to this Act three Patada and remakes Swan Lake,
(18:18):
and like that's the Swan Lake everyone Ben falls in
love with. That's like the Dance of the Black Swan, right,
Like that's the return of the of the original Act
one music comes back in and like, that's what we know?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Is that?
Speaker 5 (18:32):
So basically there's this whole section, this section that Tchaikowsky
had rewritten in Act three that wasn't included in the
original score. So it wasn't until nineteen fifty three when
a balshroy arkivist finds these pages that he rewrote, and
that's what balancing hears, and he's like, I have to
(18:56):
do something with this. He makes what's now known as
the Tchaikowsky Potida, which premieres in nineteen sixty. It's like
this lost piece that was kind of put aside because
it was way too ahead of its time in the
ballet composition world. Then you have this choreographer who is
(19:19):
changing ballet and he gravitates to this piece. It was
almost like Tchaikowsky was waiting for someone like a choreographer
like Balanching to create this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
That's the same piece that Sophie saw decades later and
was so inspired by the big movement she saw and
then decided I want to dance balanching from that piece.
It's just funny to think how like the legacy of
one piece continues to change people's lives.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
The general plot of Swan Lake, like over the course
of history has been like the end of Swan Lake
has change so many times depending on who's putting it on,
Like it seems like there's at least fifteen different endings
or different sections, and people cut stuff and move stuff.
You would just assume that it's such a classic that
(20:14):
it would never be touched, especially like coming off our
whole series where we're talking about how ballet doesn't want.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
To change anything.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Yeah, and like, look at this piece that had so
many changes.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I love hearing stories like this something that now is
considered like the greatest of the great and then you
go back to like when it first came out and
people were like, this is crap, no one likes it.
Or Tchaikovsky wrote all this amazing ballet music, but the
first one he writes, the dancers are mad at him
because they're like, we can't dance to this. I just
(20:48):
find that so encouraging to not always follow the norm
of what's always been done in whatever art form that
you're in love it, Okay, Emily, how about you?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
So, something I've been thinking about a lot since our
series rap is the dancer Holly Howard. So we talked
about Holly in our mus episode. She's one of Balancine's
first American muses around the time when he first debuted
sarahad around nineteen thirty four. She was among that first
(21:54):
class of dancers. And what we discussed about her in
the series is that she and Balanchine were what it
seemed like, romantically involved, and she got four abortions by Balanchine.
This is from Kurstine's diaries, and we kind of leave
her story there, and for us, that was like a
(22:15):
moving anecdote that illustrates this pattern that we were noticing
in lots of historians of notice in how Balanchine treated
his muses. He'd fall in love, maybe get romantically involved,
and then he'd inevitably sort of move on from them
to his next muse. So that's where we left Holly,
(22:35):
and I was just kind of curious what happened to
her and her career and if I could glean anything
more about her, and that was quite difficult to do.
I think we were trying to find out if she
was even still alive. That was hard to do. There's
no obituaries or anything like that about Holly Howard. But
yet she was one of these iconic muses in Balanchine's life,
(22:58):
so wow, I decided to take a crack at it,
just to retrace my steps a little bit. The first
thing we did was enlist a friend of the podcast
who happens to be a private investigator. Now that sounds
a little creepy, it's not what you think it was. Basically,
(23:19):
he directed us to ancestry dot com, which is a
very commonly used resource that we should use pro tip
pro tip, something we learned in recording this series. And
then I also found some additional information in this book
Mister b. George Balanjean's Twentieth Century by Jennifer Homans, there's
(23:42):
a little bit more on Holly. So basically, here's what
I can tell you about Holly. She was born in
nineteen eighteen in Virginia. She had a twin brother named Kent.
The Howards, they were this big military family. Their father
was a general it looks like under Patent and Eisenhower,
(24:02):
and she sort of grew up wherever he was stationed,
which was mostly in the Philippines anyway. So Holly got
involved in ballet from a very young age, and I
know that she spent some time training with a woman
named Catherine Littlefield, and this would be years before Balanjin
(24:23):
would show up in America. It feels like often the
way we talk about Balancine's debut in this country, it's
almost as if he sort of descended upon the US
and just like collected this motley crew of dancers that
didn't know any better, and just like delivered ballet to
the people.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
There was this.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
New Yorker description of an event that they did talking
about Sarah Nod where they say, quote, he was a
ballet choreographer and almost nobody in the United States could
dance back. He opened a school, but to judge from
the photos, the young women he was able to collect
were mostly rather plump and bewildered.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Burn Okay, I know it's that kind of exultings, and
the truth was that really ballet was here.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
This is a point that Teresa Ruth Howard makes. We
talked to Teresa Ruth Howard in one of our episodes.
You have many examples of this as early as eighteen
forty six. There's George Washington Smith. There's this guy from Philadelphia.
He was doing his thing. He's believed to be a
mixed race man, and he danced in the premier of Giselle.
(25:40):
Here in the US, there's Dorothy Alexander, who founded a
school in Atlanta in nineteen twenty nine that would later
become the Atlanta Ballet. So yeah, lots of examples of
people doing ballet here, teaching people ballet here before balancing came.
(26:00):
And so then you have Catherine Littlefield. Catherine Littlefield had
this school in Philly, and Balan Sheen when he was
starting his company, recruited a bunch of dancers from her school,
and one of those dancers was Holly Howard. So then
at this point, I believe Holly's parents are divorced and Lois,
Holly's mother, moves Holly and her twin brother Kent to
(26:24):
New York, where Holly ends up in Balancine's school, and
Lois devotes a ton of time to her daughter's career.
I talked to Holly's niece, who told me a little
bit about her aunt and has fond memories of her.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
That's amazing nice sleuthing Emily to find her.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
Wow, I did call six of her nieces and nephews.
These would be Kent's children, so her niece told me
that basically her grandmother, Lois, Holly's mother, devoted a ton
of time to Holly's career and was essentially the company chefone.
This is also backed up by Lincoln Kirstine's diaries that
(27:04):
Lois was Holly's escort and probably spent a lot of
time with Balancing.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Two.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
It seems like Holly and Balanching were in a relationship
for over a year. Her niece did mention once that
Balancing wanted to marry Holly. I don't know what to
make of that. This is where we hear the sort
of abortion rumor. It was maybe a fourth or fifth abortion,
and I was curious to a little bit about the
(27:32):
context of what that would have been like to sort
of get an abortion. In the nineteen thirties in New York,
it wasn't an uncommon use of birth control. Obviously it
was illegal. There were like safe hygienic options through midwives
that you could get where the outcome could go well.
But at the same time, because it's illegal, there's lots
(27:53):
of like underground, dangerous options too. We don't really know
the conditions that Holly dealt with or the form that
those abortions took. I mean, she's also dancing all of
the time and exerting her body in these ways, so
I kind of wonder how that came into play too.
Then Holmans writes about this other point about Holly's mother,
(28:15):
how she blamed George for ruining her young daughter and
she threatened to have him deported.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Whoa ruining because they had this romantic relationship.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
And yeah, and it seemed like, based on comments made
by dancers, people knew about the abortions, people knew about
this relationship. She felt it ruined her daughter's reputation. And
I'm even hesitant to repeat this, but there is a
really troubling footnote from this guy, John Terrorist. He was
(28:50):
a former balancing dancer and he said, they say no
proof Holly is running a whorehouse in Boston. Everybody said
she became a whore and it was because of him.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
When we come back, we'll have more on Holly Howard's life,
plus we get final reactions from our team on this season.
Stay tuned. So what's your takeaway about what we do
(29:46):
know about Holly Howard?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I don't know. I don't know what to make of this.
It sounds very messy.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
You have Lois potentially trying to get Balanchine deported. There
is some evidence to show that an immigration agent came
to question Balanchine, but ultimately like nothing came of it.
And it's kind of where we left Holly in our story,
which was we don't really know what happened to her career.
Speaker 5 (30:13):
That feels just like such a move that I wish
I could say like we've outgrown as a society, but
I feel like that happens all the time. If you
leave some organization negatively, they're going to do whatever they
can to erase you from their records.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Right, Yeah, it does feel like she's been erased, and
that's not the case with all of the dancers of
that time. You know, there is documentation of dancers and
the careers that they had. And the niece said, because
I asked her if did Holly keep a diary or anything,
And the niece said, my mother was a protective person
(30:53):
and was not a chatty kathy. She, if there was
such a thing, may have decided it would be better
to not see the light of day. And I understand
to an extent, like, you know, what is the value
in continuing to talk about these details. At the same time,
we're sort of left at this cliff, this precipice where
(31:15):
the abortion comment is the last thing we've heard, and
it is kind of told as this like moment of
I don't know, shame or tragedy or like ending of
a career, a rature of her life as a dancer,
And I mean the niece sort of admitted like, on
the other hand, that means we don't know what happened
to her. We don't know some of these details.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Some me what we want to know.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
It might be a different story, it might be a
different story of agency, but.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
We can't know.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
We don't know actually how Holly felt about it, like
how much choice that she felt she had. And I
kind of crave those details because I crave a document
of that time and like how people were thinking about
that choice, just to see her as more of an
independent person.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I'm so curious what she was like as a person
and what their relationship felt like, like what was their
relationship dynamic, And of course there are some power structures
at play, because Balancine was her boss when they were together.
But yeah, I feel like I don't I still don't know.
I don't know her. You know, I feel like I
still don't know her.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And also I just kind of wonder about her personal
life after Balanchine. Did she have other partners? You know,
how much did her relationship with Balancine also impact her
personal life from there on out?
Speaker 4 (32:42):
She never married, she never had kids of her own.
Who's around fifty years old when she died. She died
of cancer. The niece has some at least recollection or
image of her, having been surrounded by a lot of friends.
The niece's take on her aunt, it's like, well, she
(33:02):
was just Aunt Holly to me. We loved her, she
loved us. It seemed like she poured a lot of
affection into her nieces and nephews. She remembers her teaching dance,
and she recalls one visit somewhere along the line of
like visiting Holly, and she says that I remember I
had learned a dance step someplace in our travels, and
(33:25):
I was so proud to show it to her. I
thought I had it just right, and she looked at
me and smiled and said, no, that's not the way
it goes, and then she performed it for me. Oh,
and I'm sure with exact precision, and I couldn't quite
see the difference between what.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I had done and she had done.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I don't know that's it.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
I've been reflecting a little bit on this whole series,
and one thing that's really struck me has been some
of the responses from listeners. And we've gotten some really
long emails and letters from listeners sharing their stories that
have just been incredibly moving. And they've been from people
(34:27):
with all kinds of dance backgrounds, including long term professional
dancers at elite companies, as well as people who just
studied a little ballet as a kid. But I think
one of the things that really surprised me actually was
that the episode that got the most active vocal response
from listeners was episode six, and that's the episode in
(34:50):
which Ayleen and I talk about our lives and my
experience with ballet. And this is an episode that I
was really nervous to put out there. I think we
were not sure if we should publish it at all.
When we recorded it, we were like, we probably won't
even use this, but let's just record a conversation and
see what happens. But we decided to include it, and
(35:14):
we just immediately got so many notes from people who listened,
who wrote their life stories in these emails and talked
about crying as they listened. It was very moving. I've
never gotten such a wave of response to an episode,
(35:35):
and I think it was actually a life lesson for me.
There's a lot of media there, movies or TV shows
and storybooks about professional dancers, and I think for a
lot of people who study ballet, it's like you feel
close to it. You're like, this was a big part
of my life years ago, but at the same time,
(35:55):
you don't feel like you're part of it, and you
don't think you can claim it as your own, and
so you end up in this weird limbo of kind
of having your history invalidated and erased because actually, like
most people who interact with ballet, their story is much
more similar to my story than to all of these
professional dancers. I have often felt like a weird, lone
(36:19):
person who it's like ballet was a big part of
my life and then I totally left it and there's
no one like me. But actually there are tons of
people like me. We just don't talk about it. So
that blew my mind a little bit.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah, it was exciting to hear from people and then
to hear that they connected with it, And I feel
like that feeling is so relatable beyond ballet, Like I
feel like we all have a part of our past
where we didn't see something through fully, or maybe we
actually kind of did, but we don't perceive it that way,
and then we just close that part of our stories.
(36:56):
I just think that's like a human thing, And in
a way, I think it was nice for you, Erica, too,
to almost be validated by these listeners. I think you
did have a lot of imposter syndrome going into that episode,
and you did feel uncomfortable, but I think hearing that
from listeners and then actually hearing their stories was impactful
for you on a personal level.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
So one thing on that universality point that really stood
out to me was this one letter from one of
our listeners, and I'm just going to read a section
of it. She says, this episode helped me acknowledge that
I'm not as alone in choosing a path away from
my true love as I thought. My passion was music.
(37:41):
I entered the local music school at age five, and
by the time I entered high school, I had been
playing several instruments, writing music and singing in choirs for
almost eleven years. Becoming a professional musician and or composer.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Was my goal.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
It was my whole life, just like ballet was for Erica.
When I turned six, my mother took all the money
out of a savings account she'd opened for me when
I was ten and bought me my own instrument. Since
it's a local specialty instrument and not as common as violins, flutes, etc.
Every single one has to be handmade. We waited almost
(38:17):
a whole year, and finally I got it. No more
renting from the school, and then I burned out. I
had been pursuing music for fourteen years and was about
to choose a university. I've been planning to go to
the National Music Academy to become professional, but it all
went boof. I used to find unimaginable freedom when playing,
and now all I felt was dread, fear, and loss
(38:40):
of identity. I mean, I knew I didn't want to
do this anymore, but I had no idea who I
was Without music, the structure, the lessons, the daily practices.
Now I had so much free time, but nothing to
do with it. Erico was spot on when she said, so,
what is me because I'm me? And what is me
because of Ballet? I still feel the same exact way
(39:02):
when I think about the relationship I had with music.
I think I've finally started to find me again. But
oh boy, has it been difficult. I still have my instrument,
but it's been about three years since I touched it.
Maybe someday I'll pick it up again, I'm not sure.
So I thought that that was pretty incredible that this
person wanted to reach out because something had resonated so
(39:24):
true to her and what she heard in your experience.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I was talking to a really good friend of mine
the other day on the phone, and she had listened
to the podcast. She was my college roommate, and she
said a line that really struck her from that episode
between Aileen and me was how we had said that
it sometimes felt like Ballet was my one true love.
(39:53):
And then Aileen came back in the conversation and said,
you know, I think that's how you perceive it, Erica.
In other words, that it might not have actually been
like my quote unquote one true love, but that's sometimes
how I feel about it, and that's when I get
emotional about it. And my friend pointed out that that
(40:13):
perception might also be based in this all or nothing
attitude that you have as a kid, where you have
to give everything, and it's almost like when you're an
abusive relationship, and the highs and lows of the abusive
relationship and the way it kind of takes over your
life can make you feel like it's the most intense
version of love that exists and just like keeps you
(40:35):
in the relationship and makes you feel like it's this
great love. And I'm not saying that Ballet was like
an abusive relationship, but I do think that the intensity
of it and the requirement that it's a big commitment
at a young age, you get caught up in it
and it can turn it into something that makes the
loss of it even greater and just intensifies all of
your emotions around it.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, And as humans, it's like the intense things, whatever
they are, sometimes feel good, but that doesn't mean they're
the only thing that can make you happy absolutely or
the only worthwhile thing.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts.
It's written and produced by Alan Lance Lesser and Me.
Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed
(41:48):
by James Trout. Jessica Carisa is our assistant producer, Andrea
assoahe is our digital producer. Our executive producers are John
Paratti and Jessica Alpert at Rocco Punch, I Getrina Norbel
and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. For photos and more
(42:11):
details on the series, follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch,
and you can reach out via email The Turning at
rococopunch dot com. I'm Erica Lance. Thanks for listening.
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