July 8, 2025 • 36 mins
PART ONE - "I never thought it would develop into what it was."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
When Lindsay Tornambi was young, she lived in a remote community.
It was far north in the woods of Minnesota, clusters
of cabins and trailers, hidden among pine trees and lakes,
with no real connection to the outside world. About one
hundred and fifty people lived there together. They had all
moved there for a very specific reason to follow. One
(00:39):
Sunday morning, they were all getting ready for the day.
Lindsay was twelve at the time, a girl with dark
wavy hair, brown eyes like deep pools.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I think I was just at home in the trailer
where we lived.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
She lived with her family in a double wide trailer home,
and that morning Lindsay did what she always did. She
was eating breakfast, helping her sister pick out an outfit.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
And all of a sudden, I remember like my mom yelling,
the eagles are gathering. The eagles are going, And I.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Was like, what, the eagles are gathering.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
There was this huge bell that you would ring that
you could hear from different places. You started hearing people screaming,
the eagles are gathering, the eagles are gathering. The bells
started ringing, the phone started ringing. Everyone was just like
went crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Because the eagles are gathering was a code, and the
code meant Jesus is here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Jesus Christ was something back like this was it. He
was coming. We were going to heaven.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's so it was like euphoria.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, I remember my mom being like so excited, like,
oh my gosh, we got to get to the Shepherd's Camp.
We can't miss it. Get yourself in the van as
fast as you can. Everyone literally dropped what they were doing.
(02:09):
I mean everyone was just panicking. Like you could see
all the cars just flying, the dust clouds, the dirt
just like flying up.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
They had a designated meeting spot, a central location where
they all worshiped, a place called the Shepherd's Camp. Here
they would greet Jesus and descend with him to Heaven.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
People showed up to the Shepherd's Camp with shampoos still
in their hair. Somebody said that they had left the
iron on, somebody had left the oven on. People were
half dressed, missing a shoe or something. People were just
like piling in and everyone gathered in front of the
dining hall, which we called taberna. It was the end times,
(02:54):
This was it. Jesus Christ is coming back.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
A man came out to meet them at the dining hall.
He had brown hair and a short beard. He was
thin but strong looking. Everyone watched him, waiting to hear
what he would say. His name was Victor Bernard. Lindsay's
(03:23):
family was part of a group called River Road Fellowship,
a religious organization named for a road in Minnesota. A
group founded and created by this man, Victor, who would
change all of his followers' lives.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
It's hard to describe Victor. I don't think I knew
why I loved him. I just knew that everyone did.
You saw all of this respect and honor and love
for him, and I was like, Okay, this is who
God had sent to us, and this is our chef
(04:00):
and the one who takes care of us. Sometimes it
still confuses me as to why one how quickly they
just either were brainwashed or I don't even know how
to explain why they did what they did or what
they were thinking. It's a mixture of sadness, of anger,
(04:23):
of sometimes wishing it never happened. I mean, you can't
go back and change anything.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Here in this community. Sometimes things that seem perfect are
anything but air that smells like pine trees, that sway
in the wind loons calling over the water, a lake
so still it looks like glass. Everyone smiles. They plaster
(04:56):
it on their faces until it feels natural. They express
gratitude in every conversation. God loves us. Give thanks to God.
We'll have our own paradises, our own planets, even better
than we could imagine here on earth. The community tries
to hide from the dangers of the outside world, the
(05:17):
temptations lurking beyond the walls of their utopia. But the
smiling faces and the sparkling lake hide something dark and crushing.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
For Cocoa Punch.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And iHeart podcasts, this is the Turning River Road I
America Lance and I.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Meln Lance Lesser Part one they can.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
If you've listened to The Turning you probably know that.
My sister Alan and I make this show together. And
a few years ago, Allen told me about a story
I had never heard before, a story she couldn't stop
talking about. Lindsay's story.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I couldn't stop talking about it because I was surprised
it all happened so close to where we'd grown up.
While we were growing up. We live in Minneapolis, Minnesota,
and Lindsay was in Pine County just two hours north
of us. Our family had driven through the area many times,
we didn't know that a man named Victor Bernard lived
off a dirt road somewhere in Pine County, a man
(06:39):
who called himself an apostle and convinced dozens of families
to join him. It felt strange that for years we'd
been investigating groups with leaders who wielded absolute power, who
could enlighten and inspire, but who could also admonish and harm,
And here was an example in our own backyard. When
(07:04):
I found out about Lindsay, I googled her. She's a
woman in her thirties, now around my age. Her LinkedIn
profile pictures showed her in a graduation cap and gown
in front of Philadelphia City Hall. I did a double take.
I've taken pictures in that exact spot with friends. I've
walked down that street countless times because I lived in
Philadelphia in my twenties around the same time Lindsay took
(07:27):
that picture. Lindsay's face was smiley and friendly, looking so unpretentious,
just sweet, like someone i'd want to be friends with.
I felt weirdly drawn to her, even though our lives
from the outside looked like they moved in almost parallel lines.
They were so different. So I wrote to Lindsay and
(07:48):
we started talking.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Lindsay said, while Allen and I were attending middle school,
she'd been selected to join an inner sanctum of her community,
an elite group inside River Road Fellowship that required her
to give even more of herself away. How did this
attempt at utopia turn into something twisted? How was it
that even the people who saw what happened would deny
(08:11):
what was in front of their eyes? And though Lindsay
was small, one of the youngest of the group, she
would be the one to reveal the secret that was
hidden inside.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Before she was in River Road, before Minnesota, Lindsay lived
in Pennsylvania with her parents and three siblings, growing up
in the nineties. She was a product of the time.
She loved her beanie babies, the Backstreet boys, and musicals.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Like Annie, I loved to entertain people and saying and
do all the voices.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Her dad had a soft pretzel business, and her mom
stayed at home.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
She was a talker. My mom loved to talk, could
talk to anyone with her hair and so animated.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
She wore hot pink lipstick and went through what Lindsay
calls her mom's sequin phase. Lindsay was really into gymnastics.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I loved the power of it. Was almost like daring.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Her dad made a homemade balance beam so she could practice,
and her parents took her to see the US women's
gymnastics team on tour after they won gold at the
nineteen ninety six Olympics. Lindsay could picture herself on those
mats and beams, like a fantasy future playing out in
front of her, so distant but suddenly so close. But
(09:41):
she'd never get to pursue this dream because this was
the year nineteen ninety six. When her parents opened their
door to a stranger. In November of that year, Lindsay
was nine years old. Her parents said they were having
some dinner guests, some friends of a friend. The guests
had traveled all the way from Minnesota to Pennsylvania to
(10:04):
meet Lindsay's family for the first time. One of these
guests was Victor Bernard.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
That's the first time that they met him.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And what did he look like at that time?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Dark hair, some sort of facial hair, more on the
like fit side.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Victor was there with a woman we'll call her jan
though that's not her real name. Jan worked with him
kind of like a second in command. Lindsay said she
had a hard looking face with long pin straight brown
hair and bangs.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
They smoked. I remember that they smoked cigarettes, And I
remember Victor being like, you know, when you're little and
you can just tell an adult who carries like a
lot of authority, and you kind of just you could
tell that from him.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
What about him do you think indicated to you at
the time that he was someone of authority.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I think his intensity. He was very intense, and I
think just the way he carried himself almost with purpose,
like a confidence. Yeah. He just didn't seem like a warm,
fun kind of guy. Just very intense. Yeah, I think
(11:26):
that's the word.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Victor was there to talk to Lindsay's parents about a
group he had started. He said he and his wife
and children and a bunch of other families all lived
together on a plot of land in Minnesota. They farmed
and worshiped God, and Victor wanted Lindsay's family to try
it out too.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I was kind of really indifferent at that time, had
no clue what was going on, so oblivious to any
like adult conversations that were happening. But me and my
sisters we love to dance, so I remember we put
on like a show for them. I don't know if
you guys did that.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh yeah, we did that all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, so we made up this huge dance. The house
we were living at the time had a huge family room.
I remember like running from one end to the other
and lifting up one of my siblings in the air
and we'd do our jumps in our leaps and pretty
sure they clapped.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Jan seemed nice. She told Lindsay about the place they lived.
They took care of all kinds of animals.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
She was telling us about all the kids who lived there,
and she said they had a pond and a lake
that they could go swimming in in the summer. I
was like, oh, that sounds fun.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Big decisions about Lindsay's future were being made that night.
Unbeknownst to her, Lindsay's mom pulled her aside. Afterward, Victor
had some thoughts on Lindsay's life.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Somehow he convinced my mother to take me out of gymnastics.
I remember my mom sat down with me like shortly
after they left and said, when Jesus Christ comes back,
he's not gonna say, oh, Lindsay, I'm so proud of you,
because she got so many gold medals and gymnastics. She
just talked about, you know what Jesus Christ would care
about when we get to heaven, and it definitely wouldn't
(13:26):
be getting gold medal at the Olympics. He's gonna judge
us by our character here on earth and what we
did for him. And I remember crying and being so
upset and like telling her that, but my dream was
to become an Olympian. And I don't remember it being
(13:47):
like a super long conversation. She probably didn't really think
about how it would affect me. I guess there was
really no arguing, So yeah, they pulled me out of gymnastics.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
For as long as Lindsay can remember, it seemed her
parents were always searching.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
They always were the type of people who needed to
follow someone.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Long before they joined River Road Fellowship, their social circle
was defined by a different group of families who had
all met through a kind of church. They were part
of a Christian organization called The Way International or The Way.
The Way was founded by an evangelical pastor who started
preaching his less orthodox ideas about the Bible on radio
(14:42):
programs In the nineteen forties, he recruited members around the
world and introduced new followers to his belief system through
a course called Power for Abundant Living. The vibe I
get is self improvement mixed with religion, but The Way
was all also known for its cult like tendencies. Some
(15:03):
former members used words like love bombing and brainwashing to
describe it. They tell stories of constant supervision and sleep deprivation,
of being singled out or embarrassed into submission if they
tried to resist the leader's directions, or even shut out
completely so no one was allowed to talk or interact
with them. Some said they got firearm training and were
(15:25):
warned they might need to use it. Victor Bernard was
a member of the Way too, but Lindsay's parents didn't
know him yet. In the meantime, they hosted fellowships for
the Way in their home. These informal religious services slash
prayer groups. They would talk about their unusual interpretations of
the Bible, and sometimes they spoke in tongues. It was
(15:47):
all interwoven until Lindsay's childhood.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And I remember my mom telling me stories that I
was speaking in tongues almost before I could talk, which
I don't. I mean, you'd think that that would just
be babbel.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Then yeah, you're like, is that just baby babel?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah? Yeah, And she would say we'd go to the
park all the time and she'd push me on the
swings and I'd be playing and we'd be like singing,
you know, this little light of mine, like all those
songs and speaking in tongues and yeah, So I had
grown up with this.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
When she got a little older, Lindsey was expected to
participate in fellowships, which made her nervous. Speaking in tongues
scared her the most. She'd have to speak in tongues
and then provide a translation for the group.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I mean, I can remember from the time I was
probably ten years old, pre planning what I would say.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Did you think that other people did that?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Or did you just think that everyone else seemed to
actually be channeling God?
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I thought everyone else was channeling the Lord. I was like,
what is wrongs me? You know, like it just it
seemed so hard. I mean maybe maybe in the back
my mind, I thought, you know, maybe some of the
other kids had trouble, but for some people it seemed
to come so naturally, you know, and they were just
so especially some of the adults. It was so beautiful
(17:11):
what they were saying and the words they would be
so encouraging and uplifting, and I was like, this can't
be made up, you know, like they have to know
what they're doing. But little on me here is stuck
with this tongue and having to write the words ahead
of time. Yeah, it does unstressful. Yeah, it was like
my hands are starting to sweat just remembering it.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
After the founder of the Way died in the mid eighties,
a lot of people started leaving the group. The collapse
left her parents searching once again, which led them to Amway,
the infamous multi level marketing company that sells health and
beauty products, among other things. It felt an awful lot
like a pyramid scheme, and they were like.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Super gung ho about that, and like almost making vision
boards of the house we wanted in the cars that
we wanted, and they had all these different levels like ruby, diamond, emerald,
and like my mom would write like go diamond with
her colored eyeliner on her mirror in the bathroom. Maybe
(18:17):
they just never would have been those parents that would
have protected their children as much or something, you know,
like they just they almost needed somebody to look up to.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Emily didn't last, though, and a few months after their
dinner with a Victor, Lindsay's family decided to visit River
Road Fellowship for the first time. The first trip to
Minnesota was just for a visit. The drive was long,
especially for a ten year old like Lindsay. She watched
out the window the landscape changed from nondescript highway to lush,
(19:04):
green pines. Lindsay imagines Laura Ingles Wilder from her beloved
Little House on the Prairie books. Traveling through this exact
landscape and a covered wagon in the eighteen hundreds, it
felt like an adventure. It took them twenty hours to
(19:25):
reach the town of Finlanson, Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Have y'all ever been to Finlisten? Okay? So it's a
town I think of three hundred and fifteen people. It
is very tiny. We drove through like the town like downtown,
and my dad was like you could blink and you'd
be through it. There was a pea trees, gas station
and bait tackle shop joined together, and then a post
(19:51):
office and that was pretty much it I remember us
joking that you could see, you know, in movie you
see the tumble weeds blowing through the streets. I swore
I saw one, but I probably just made it up
in my head because it was like nothing I'd ever
seen before. We drove through. There was a egg ranch
(20:13):
and it smelled terrible, like huge buildings filled with chickens
and the smell. I was like, what is this? That
just smelled like crap, really really bad. And we just
keep driving.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
The longer they drove, the more excited Lindsay got. She
was building up this utopia in her head. Finally they
turned off the main road.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
It's this bump and then it's the gravel. There's the
dust everywhere, and you hear all the rocks flying and
hitting the car. And at that point we knew that
we were close because they told us like, when she
hit the gravel road, you're close. So I remember like
sitting up and looking out and it's just trees everyone,
and you know, like old fences.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Then in the distance among the trees, between two big
wooden pillars, they saw the sign the Shepherd's Camp.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And we turn in. It was beautiful, I mean, the
camp was gorgeous. It was tall trees everywhere in green
grass and a pond that led out into a lake,
and it just smelled like pine trees. I don't think
I'd ever smelled so much pine in my life, like
(21:37):
very crisp and clean. We could see the dining hall
and like people started pouring out. All these kids were
running out of the dining hall, and I just remember
being really excited. I don't think I was shy to
meet the kids at all. I was like, I've heard
so much about you, and the kids were so n
(22:00):
wanted to like hang out and show us around and
play and wanted to know all about our lives. They
lived very different than us, so many people on one property,
you know. I was like it just it seemed fun, though,
Like if you had all these kids to play with
every single day, I mean, you have never ending play dates.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
It's the dream.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah. Yeah. I remember doing like cartwheels and back handsprings
for them, and they thought that was so cool that
I could do that stuff.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Lindsay's family stayed for a week. Lindsay had never spent
so much time outside.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I remember getting like very sappy, and my hands had
never had like tree sap on them. Before you know.
I remember there were fields where the grass was so
high and you would go on your hands and knees
to make tunnels through the grass. You couldn't see the
tunnels if you were standing outside, but if you found
the entrance, the grass would be flattened where you made
(23:00):
your little tunnel. So yeah, we played like all through
the woods made forts. The further you went down the road,
like deeper into the camp, the more woods there were.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
When they weren't playing in the woods, the kids helped
take care of the farm animals. In this utopia, everyone
had a role in their survival, working the land and
raising their own livestock. Let them be mostly self sufficient.
They let them stay close to their profit, away from
the world.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
They had sheep and cows and pigs and rabbits chickens.
But it was all fun like I just joined in
like I had known them my entire life.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
At meal time Victor took the stage, he told them
Christ will return. Lindsay took her cues from the adults
in the room. When he spoke, everyone listened.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
So I remember meals being so long, hours long at times,
and we'd have to sit there, and I remember my
mom was like infatuated with Victor and loved everything about
the camp and furiously taking notes. Anytime he spoke, he
(24:18):
could be like so charismatic and just suck you in,
like the way he moved his words his voice, and
then the urgency too. I mean, every time he preached
it was always you know, the Lord is coming back,
The Lord is coming back.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Lindsay's mom believed Victor when he said Jesus was going
to return, and when Jesus returned, he would find them
there in Minnesota at the Shepherd's Camp. Lindsay had an
image in her head of all of Victor's followers being
sucked into the sky.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Like the rapture kind of And that's how I always
envisioned it is, okay, we're all here, and then whoop
everyone up in the air.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Even when he wasn't preaching everyone and wanted to be
around Victor, he might look you in the eye and
compliment you in a way that made you feel amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It was almost like if your favorite singer or actor,
if they acknowledged you paid you a compliment. I mean,
you would be on like a high. I know mine
would be Kevin Gossner, But I think because he had
been portrayed as this man of God and so important
and put up on that pedestal. If he spoke to me,
(25:29):
it was like a really big deal. There was that
feeling of you know when you hold your breath and
you have butterflies and you know something exciting is going
to happen, and you kind of feel light on your feet.
That's how you would feel. Sometimes. There were also times
and I would get so shy around him. There were
(25:53):
times where he could be so charming and he would
make you feel like the most important person in the
entire world. And there were other times where he was
so scary and demanding, and then if somebody maybe challenged
him or went against him, there was a lot of
public humiliation and you were so afraid of him. There
(26:16):
were times when Victor would get so mad at somebody
in the church and like he'd throw a chair. I
remember him spitting in people's faces, getting mad at kids
for not listening. I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, like
he is. It made you never want to do anything
(26:37):
to make him upset, like you'd just be on your
best best behavior.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
After the week was over, Lindsay's family drove home to Pennsylvania,
but Victor was still in there lives. They read his books,
he gave them advice, and they drove out to Minnesota
for more visits to the camp. It was during one
of those visits in nineteen ninety eight, that Victor made
a big announcement and an evening meeting that only the
adults attended. On this special night, Victor took off his
(27:16):
wedding ring in front of everyone. He told the congregation
he was forsaking his earthly wife. He would move out
of the house where his wife and their four sons lived.
From now on, he would be married to the church.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I remember my mom told me either that night or
the next day. She was so excited like fill me
in on what had happened at the meeting.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Around this time, Victor met with Lindsay's parents and gave
them an ultimatum.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You're either moving to Minnesota and you're joining our church,
or you have to cut ties. By the end of
that meeting, my parents had decided to join Victor and
make the move.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Lindsay's mom was excited to make the change. She wanted
to be near Victor.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
I honestly think if my mom wasn't in the picture,
my dad wouldn't have gone.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
And her parents worried if they weren't in Minnesota, Jesus
might not be able to find them when he returned.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I think it happened pretty quickly that they sold the house.
We packed up our belongings, and we made the drive
out there to the Shepherd's Camp. I thought it would
be just like how it was when we visited, getting
to do animal care, playing soccer, ice skating in the winter, snowmobiling.
(28:38):
I never thought it would develop into what it was.
Right before we arrived in Minnesota, on our way to
move there, my mom was joking, maybe kind of being serious,
but that she should put on her wedding dress so
that she would be in her wedding dress when we
arrived at the camp, basically saying she was giving her life,
(29:02):
you know, which if you think of it as so sick,
like my dad was right, you know, like I just
I don't understand what was going with their heads, and
I don't know that I'll ever be able to understand
what they were thinking.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Do you think it was almost like she felt as
though she was marrying the camp, the community, almost kind
of victor. Yeah, I think so, Lindsay's mom was ready
to give up everything, and that's what Victor wanted. Does
anything stand out to you as your first big memory
(29:43):
from early on when you first started living there.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I do remember one time my sister got in a
lot of trouble. She's the youngest girl, she would have
been five. I don't even know what she did, but
somebody like picked her up and shook her so hard
that she peed herself. And I'm feeling so sad and
upset for her. I don't even think I knew what
(30:10):
to do. Our parents had punished us a lot growing up,
but nothing to that extent to where you would pee yourself.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
And what was the adult attitude towards it. Did anyone
seem surprised that that harsh of a punishment, No was happening.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
No, nobody seemed surprised at all.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
What was strange in the outside world was normal here,
and Linda would have to get used to this new life,
this world with its own rules. Victor said. The members
of River Road had to leave behind their earthly things,
anything that would pull them away from Jesus. So one day,
the families gathered in the middle of a gated field
near one of the barns. They lit a massive bonfire
(30:56):
that took up a large part of the yard. People
started to their belongings to the field. One by one,
they threw them onto the fire. The physical reminders of
their past began to burn.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I do remember that feeling like what like there were
couches in there, somebody drove their motorcycle. They got rid
of it. Jewelry, pictures, videos, clothes. I remember we had
these like Christian like kids songs on tape, and we
got rid of those. I didn't really understand it. I
(31:32):
was like, why do we have to get rid of
all this stuff? It was piled high at that point,
I mean, being twelve and tiny, I thought it looked
as big as a house. It was hot, so hot.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Lindsay didn't own much back then, but she knew she
was expected to sacrifice something. She went and got the
teddy bear she'd had since before she could remember.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I think he's the only thing that reminds me of
my earthly life, so I'll throw him in there.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
She tossed her bear on the fire and watched it burn.
She felt a deep sadness inside her, but also guilt
and the sense that that sadness was a bad influence,
that she should stop that feeling because that sadness might
hold her back from living for Jesus' return. It was
(32:38):
one of the first times she would learn to question
her emotions, one of the first times she would have
to give something up for the religious group her parents
had decided to join. The fire grew bigger. She felt
the heat on her face.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Sparks coming out of it. It was wild, It really was.
I've never seen anything like that in my life. The
flames just dancing. It felt like they were reaching to
the sky. It lasted for three days. The fire continually burned.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Coming up this season on.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
The Turning this especially Agent Jackie Doer the FBI Baltimore Division.
It is ten oh four am on Wednesday, March twenty seven,
twenty thirteen. How did your parents get into what's refer
to as a cult?
Speaker 5 (34:00):
I remember feeling like I couldn't say no. I didn't
even know if my parents would want me back because
they gave me to him. I just remember feeling almost
like I had no other options, that the only thing
to say was yes. That I would say, and all
ten of us said yes.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
How can one person control so many people and change
their will.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I don't care what happens when Jesus Christ comes back.
Whatever happens to me, it cannot possibly be worse than this.
That thought scared me. My heart was beating out of
my chest. I felt like I could hear it. He
was talking about how much God loved me, and how
(34:49):
special I was, and how God had chosen me. We
had these oil lanterns on the walls, and we were
all just standing in a line. When we're chosen, we
had decided to give our lives. This is almost like
the ultimate sacrifice.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts.
It's written and produced by Erica Lance and Me. Our
story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed by
James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact checking
by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John Parratti
(35:36):
and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch, and Katrina Norvell and
Nikki Etur at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us on
Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out via
email The Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. I'm Alan
Lance Lesser, Thanks for listening,
When Lindsay Tornambi was young, she lived in a remote community.
It was far north in the woods of Minnesota, clusters
of cabins and trailers, hidden among pine trees and lakes,
with no real connection to the outside world. About one
hundred and fifty people lived there together. They had all
moved there for a very specific reason to follow. One
(00:39):
Sunday morning, they were all getting ready for the day.
Lindsay was twelve at the time, a girl with dark
wavy hair, brown eyes like deep pools.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I think I was just at home in the trailer
where we lived.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
She lived with her family in a double wide trailer home,
and that morning Lindsay did what she always did. She
was eating breakfast, helping her sister pick out an outfit.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
And all of a sudden, I remember like my mom yelling,
the eagles are gathering. The eagles are going, And I.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Was like, what, the eagles are gathering.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
There was this huge bell that you would ring that
you could hear from different places. You started hearing people screaming,
the eagles are gathering, the eagles are gathering. The bells
started ringing, the phone started ringing. Everyone was just like
went crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Because the eagles are gathering was a code, and the
code meant Jesus is here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Jesus Christ was something back like this was it. He
was coming. We were going to heaven.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's so it was like euphoria.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, I remember my mom being like so excited, like,
oh my gosh, we got to get to the Shepherd's Camp.
We can't miss it. Get yourself in the van as
fast as you can. Everyone literally dropped what they were doing.
(02:09):
I mean everyone was just panicking. Like you could see
all the cars just flying, the dust clouds, the dirt
just like flying up.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
They had a designated meeting spot, a central location where
they all worshiped, a place called the Shepherd's Camp. Here
they would greet Jesus and descend with him to Heaven.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
People showed up to the Shepherd's Camp with shampoos still
in their hair. Somebody said that they had left the
iron on, somebody had left the oven on. People were
half dressed, missing a shoe or something. People were just
like piling in and everyone gathered in front of the
dining hall, which we called taberna. It was the end times,
(02:54):
This was it. Jesus Christ is coming back.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
A man came out to meet them at the dining hall.
He had brown hair and a short beard. He was
thin but strong looking. Everyone watched him, waiting to hear
what he would say. His name was Victor Bernard. Lindsay's
(03:23):
family was part of a group called River Road Fellowship,
a religious organization named for a road in Minnesota. A
group founded and created by this man, Victor, who would
change all of his followers' lives.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
It's hard to describe Victor. I don't think I knew
why I loved him. I just knew that everyone did.
You saw all of this respect and honor and love
for him, and I was like, Okay, this is who
God had sent to us, and this is our chef
(04:00):
and the one who takes care of us. Sometimes it
still confuses me as to why one how quickly they
just either were brainwashed or I don't even know how
to explain why they did what they did or what
they were thinking. It's a mixture of sadness, of anger,
(04:23):
of sometimes wishing it never happened. I mean, you can't
go back and change anything.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Here in this community. Sometimes things that seem perfect are
anything but air that smells like pine trees, that sway
in the wind loons calling over the water, a lake
so still it looks like glass. Everyone smiles. They plaster
(04:56):
it on their faces until it feels natural. They express
gratitude in every conversation. God loves us. Give thanks to God.
We'll have our own paradises, our own planets, even better
than we could imagine here on earth. The community tries
to hide from the dangers of the outside world, the
(05:17):
temptations lurking beyond the walls of their utopia. But the
smiling faces and the sparkling lake hide something dark and crushing.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
For Cocoa Punch.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And iHeart podcasts, this is the Turning River Road I
America Lance and I.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Meln Lance Lesser Part one they can.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
If you've listened to The Turning you probably know that.
My sister Alan and I make this show together. And
a few years ago, Allen told me about a story
I had never heard before, a story she couldn't stop
talking about. Lindsay's story.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I couldn't stop talking about it because I was surprised
it all happened so close to where we'd grown up.
While we were growing up. We live in Minneapolis, Minnesota,
and Lindsay was in Pine County just two hours north
of us. Our family had driven through the area many times,
we didn't know that a man named Victor Bernard lived
off a dirt road somewhere in Pine County, a man
(06:39):
who called himself an apostle and convinced dozens of families
to join him. It felt strange that for years we'd
been investigating groups with leaders who wielded absolute power, who
could enlighten and inspire, but who could also admonish and harm,
And here was an example in our own backyard. When
(07:04):
I found out about Lindsay, I googled her. She's a
woman in her thirties, now around my age. Her LinkedIn
profile pictures showed her in a graduation cap and gown
in front of Philadelphia City Hall. I did a double take.
I've taken pictures in that exact spot with friends. I've
walked down that street countless times because I lived in
Philadelphia in my twenties around the same time Lindsay took
(07:27):
that picture. Lindsay's face was smiley and friendly, looking so unpretentious,
just sweet, like someone i'd want to be friends with.
I felt weirdly drawn to her, even though our lives
from the outside looked like they moved in almost parallel lines.
They were so different. So I wrote to Lindsay and
(07:48):
we started talking.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Lindsay said, while Allen and I were attending middle school,
she'd been selected to join an inner sanctum of her community,
an elite group inside River Road Fellowship that required her
to give even more of herself away. How did this
attempt at utopia turn into something twisted? How was it
that even the people who saw what happened would deny
(08:11):
what was in front of their eyes? And though Lindsay
was small, one of the youngest of the group, she
would be the one to reveal the secret that was
hidden inside.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Before she was in River Road, before Minnesota, Lindsay lived
in Pennsylvania with her parents and three siblings, growing up
in the nineties. She was a product of the time.
She loved her beanie babies, the Backstreet boys, and musicals.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Like Annie, I loved to entertain people and saying and
do all the voices.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Her dad had a soft pretzel business, and her mom
stayed at home.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
She was a talker. My mom loved to talk, could
talk to anyone with her hair and so animated.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
She wore hot pink lipstick and went through what Lindsay
calls her mom's sequin phase. Lindsay was really into gymnastics.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I loved the power of it. Was almost like daring.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Her dad made a homemade balance beam so she could practice,
and her parents took her to see the US women's
gymnastics team on tour after they won gold at the
nineteen ninety six Olympics. Lindsay could picture herself on those
mats and beams, like a fantasy future playing out in
front of her, so distant but suddenly so close. But
(09:41):
she'd never get to pursue this dream because this was
the year nineteen ninety six. When her parents opened their
door to a stranger. In November of that year, Lindsay
was nine years old. Her parents said they were having
some dinner guests, some friends of a friend. The guests
had traveled all the way from Minnesota to Pennsylvania to
(10:04):
meet Lindsay's family for the first time. One of these
guests was Victor Bernard.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
That's the first time that they met him.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And what did he look like at that time?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Dark hair, some sort of facial hair, more on the
like fit side.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Victor was there with a woman we'll call her jan
though that's not her real name. Jan worked with him
kind of like a second in command. Lindsay said she
had a hard looking face with long pin straight brown
hair and bangs.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
They smoked. I remember that they smoked cigarettes, And I
remember Victor being like, you know, when you're little and
you can just tell an adult who carries like a
lot of authority, and you kind of just you could
tell that from him.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
What about him do you think indicated to you at
the time that he was someone of authority.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I think his intensity. He was very intense, and I
think just the way he carried himself almost with purpose,
like a confidence. Yeah. He just didn't seem like a warm,
fun kind of guy. Just very intense. Yeah, I think
(11:26):
that's the word.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Victor was there to talk to Lindsay's parents about a
group he had started. He said he and his wife
and children and a bunch of other families all lived
together on a plot of land in Minnesota. They farmed
and worshiped God, and Victor wanted Lindsay's family to try
it out too.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I was kind of really indifferent at that time, had
no clue what was going on, so oblivious to any
like adult conversations that were happening. But me and my
sisters we love to dance, so I remember we put
on like a show for them. I don't know if
you guys did that.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh yeah, we did that all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, so we made up this huge dance. The house
we were living at the time had a huge family room.
I remember like running from one end to the other
and lifting up one of my siblings in the air
and we'd do our jumps in our leaps and pretty
sure they clapped.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Jan seemed nice. She told Lindsay about the place they lived.
They took care of all kinds of animals.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
She was telling us about all the kids who lived there,
and she said they had a pond and a lake
that they could go swimming in in the summer. I
was like, oh, that sounds fun.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Big decisions about Lindsay's future were being made that night.
Unbeknownst to her, Lindsay's mom pulled her aside. Afterward, Victor
had some thoughts on Lindsay's life.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Somehow he convinced my mother to take me out of gymnastics.
I remember my mom sat down with me like shortly
after they left and said, when Jesus Christ comes back,
he's not gonna say, oh, Lindsay, I'm so proud of you,
because she got so many gold medals and gymnastics. She
just talked about, you know what Jesus Christ would care
about when we get to heaven, and it definitely wouldn't
(13:26):
be getting gold medal at the Olympics. He's gonna judge
us by our character here on earth and what we
did for him. And I remember crying and being so
upset and like telling her that, but my dream was
to become an Olympian. And I don't remember it being
(13:47):
like a super long conversation. She probably didn't really think
about how it would affect me. I guess there was
really no arguing, So yeah, they pulled me out of gymnastics.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
For as long as Lindsay can remember, it seemed her
parents were always searching.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
They always were the type of people who needed to
follow someone.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Long before they joined River Road Fellowship, their social circle
was defined by a different group of families who had
all met through a kind of church. They were part
of a Christian organization called The Way International or The Way.
The Way was founded by an evangelical pastor who started
preaching his less orthodox ideas about the Bible on radio
(14:42):
programs In the nineteen forties, he recruited members around the
world and introduced new followers to his belief system through
a course called Power for Abundant Living. The vibe I
get is self improvement mixed with religion, but The Way
was all also known for its cult like tendencies. Some
(15:03):
former members used words like love bombing and brainwashing to
describe it. They tell stories of constant supervision and sleep deprivation,
of being singled out or embarrassed into submission if they
tried to resist the leader's directions, or even shut out
completely so no one was allowed to talk or interact
with them. Some said they got firearm training and were
(15:25):
warned they might need to use it. Victor Bernard was
a member of the Way too, but Lindsay's parents didn't
know him yet. In the meantime, they hosted fellowships for
the Way in their home. These informal religious services slash
prayer groups. They would talk about their unusual interpretations of
the Bible, and sometimes they spoke in tongues. It was
(15:47):
all interwoven until Lindsay's childhood.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
And I remember my mom telling me stories that I
was speaking in tongues almost before I could talk, which
I don't. I mean, you'd think that that would just
be babbel.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Then yeah, you're like, is that just baby babel?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah? Yeah, And she would say we'd go to the
park all the time and she'd push me on the
swings and I'd be playing and we'd be like singing,
you know, this little light of mine, like all those
songs and speaking in tongues and yeah, So I had
grown up with this.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
When she got a little older, Lindsey was expected to
participate in fellowships, which made her nervous. Speaking in tongues
scared her the most. She'd have to speak in tongues
and then provide a translation for the group.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I mean, I can remember from the time I was
probably ten years old, pre planning what I would say.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Did you think that other people did that?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Or did you just think that everyone else seemed to
actually be channeling God?
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I thought everyone else was channeling the Lord. I was like,
what is wrongs me? You know, like it just it
seemed so hard. I mean maybe maybe in the back
my mind, I thought, you know, maybe some of the
other kids had trouble, but for some people it seemed
to come so naturally, you know, and they were just
so especially some of the adults. It was so beautiful
(17:11):
what they were saying and the words they would be
so encouraging and uplifting, and I was like, this can't
be made up, you know, like they have to know
what they're doing. But little on me here is stuck
with this tongue and having to write the words ahead
of time. Yeah, it does unstressful. Yeah, it was like
my hands are starting to sweat just remembering it.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
After the founder of the Way died in the mid eighties,
a lot of people started leaving the group. The collapse
left her parents searching once again, which led them to Amway,
the infamous multi level marketing company that sells health and
beauty products, among other things. It felt an awful lot
like a pyramid scheme, and they were like.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Super gung ho about that, and like almost making vision
boards of the house we wanted in the cars that
we wanted, and they had all these different levels like ruby, diamond, emerald,
and like my mom would write like go diamond with
her colored eyeliner on her mirror in the bathroom. Maybe
(18:17):
they just never would have been those parents that would
have protected their children as much or something, you know,
like they just they almost needed somebody to look up to.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Emily didn't last, though, and a few months after their
dinner with a Victor, Lindsay's family decided to visit River
Road Fellowship for the first time. The first trip to
Minnesota was just for a visit. The drive was long,
especially for a ten year old like Lindsay. She watched
out the window the landscape changed from nondescript highway to lush,
(19:04):
green pines. Lindsay imagines Laura Ingles Wilder from her beloved
Little House on the Prairie books. Traveling through this exact
landscape and a covered wagon in the eighteen hundreds, it
felt like an adventure. It took them twenty hours to
(19:25):
reach the town of Finlanson, Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Have y'all ever been to Finlisten? Okay? So it's a
town I think of three hundred and fifteen people. It
is very tiny. We drove through like the town like downtown,
and my dad was like you could blink and you'd
be through it. There was a pea trees, gas station
and bait tackle shop joined together, and then a post
(19:51):
office and that was pretty much it I remember us
joking that you could see, you know, in movie you
see the tumble weeds blowing through the streets. I swore
I saw one, but I probably just made it up
in my head because it was like nothing I'd ever
seen before. We drove through. There was a egg ranch
(20:13):
and it smelled terrible, like huge buildings filled with chickens
and the smell. I was like, what is this? That
just smelled like crap, really really bad. And we just
keep driving.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
The longer they drove, the more excited Lindsay got. She
was building up this utopia in her head. Finally they
turned off the main road.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
It's this bump and then it's the gravel. There's the
dust everywhere, and you hear all the rocks flying and
hitting the car. And at that point we knew that
we were close because they told us like, when she
hit the gravel road, you're close. So I remember like
sitting up and looking out and it's just trees everyone,
and you know, like old fences.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Then in the distance among the trees, between two big
wooden pillars, they saw the sign the Shepherd's Camp.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And we turn in. It was beautiful, I mean, the
camp was gorgeous. It was tall trees everywhere in green
grass and a pond that led out into a lake,
and it just smelled like pine trees. I don't think
I'd ever smelled so much pine in my life, like
(21:37):
very crisp and clean. We could see the dining hall
and like people started pouring out. All these kids were
running out of the dining hall, and I just remember
being really excited. I don't think I was shy to
meet the kids at all. I was like, I've heard
so much about you, and the kids were so n
(22:00):
wanted to like hang out and show us around and
play and wanted to know all about our lives. They
lived very different than us, so many people on one property,
you know. I was like it just it seemed fun, though,
Like if you had all these kids to play with
every single day, I mean, you have never ending play dates.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
It's the dream.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah. Yeah. I remember doing like cartwheels and back handsprings
for them, and they thought that was so cool that
I could do that stuff.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Lindsay's family stayed for a week. Lindsay had never spent
so much time outside.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I remember getting like very sappy, and my hands had
never had like tree sap on them. Before you know.
I remember there were fields where the grass was so
high and you would go on your hands and knees
to make tunnels through the grass. You couldn't see the
tunnels if you were standing outside, but if you found
the entrance, the grass would be flattened where you made
(23:00):
your little tunnel. So yeah, we played like all through
the woods made forts. The further you went down the road,
like deeper into the camp, the more woods there were.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
When they weren't playing in the woods, the kids helped
take care of the farm animals. In this utopia, everyone
had a role in their survival, working the land and
raising their own livestock. Let them be mostly self sufficient.
They let them stay close to their profit, away from
the world.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
They had sheep and cows and pigs and rabbits chickens.
But it was all fun like I just joined in
like I had known them my entire life.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
At meal time Victor took the stage, he told them
Christ will return. Lindsay took her cues from the adults
in the room. When he spoke, everyone listened.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
So I remember meals being so long, hours long at times,
and we'd have to sit there, and I remember my
mom was like infatuated with Victor and loved everything about
the camp and furiously taking notes. Anytime he spoke, he
(24:18):
could be like so charismatic and just suck you in,
like the way he moved his words his voice, and
then the urgency too. I mean, every time he preached
it was always you know, the Lord is coming back,
The Lord is coming back.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Lindsay's mom believed Victor when he said Jesus was going
to return, and when Jesus returned, he would find them
there in Minnesota at the Shepherd's Camp. Lindsay had an
image in her head of all of Victor's followers being
sucked into the sky.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Like the rapture kind of And that's how I always
envisioned it is, okay, we're all here, and then whoop
everyone up in the air.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Even when he wasn't preaching everyone and wanted to be
around Victor, he might look you in the eye and
compliment you in a way that made you feel amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It was almost like if your favorite singer or actor,
if they acknowledged you paid you a compliment. I mean,
you would be on like a high. I know mine
would be Kevin Gossner, But I think because he had
been portrayed as this man of God and so important
and put up on that pedestal. If he spoke to me,
(25:29):
it was like a really big deal. There was that
feeling of you know when you hold your breath and
you have butterflies and you know something exciting is going
to happen, and you kind of feel light on your feet.
That's how you would feel. Sometimes. There were also times
and I would get so shy around him. There were
(25:53):
times where he could be so charming and he would
make you feel like the most important person in the
entire world. And there were other times where he was
so scary and demanding, and then if somebody maybe challenged
him or went against him, there was a lot of
public humiliation and you were so afraid of him. There
(26:16):
were times when Victor would get so mad at somebody
in the church and like he'd throw a chair. I
remember him spitting in people's faces, getting mad at kids
for not listening. I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, like
he is. It made you never want to do anything
(26:37):
to make him upset, like you'd just be on your
best best behavior.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
After the week was over, Lindsay's family drove home to Pennsylvania,
but Victor was still in there lives. They read his books,
he gave them advice, and they drove out to Minnesota
for more visits to the camp. It was during one
of those visits in nineteen ninety eight, that Victor made
a big announcement and an evening meeting that only the
adults attended. On this special night, Victor took off his
(27:16):
wedding ring in front of everyone. He told the congregation
he was forsaking his earthly wife. He would move out
of the house where his wife and their four sons lived.
From now on, he would be married to the church.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I remember my mom told me either that night or
the next day. She was so excited like fill me
in on what had happened at the meeting.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Around this time, Victor met with Lindsay's parents and gave
them an ultimatum.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You're either moving to Minnesota and you're joining our church,
or you have to cut ties. By the end of
that meeting, my parents had decided to join Victor and
make the move.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Lindsay's mom was excited to make the change. She wanted
to be near Victor.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
I honestly think if my mom wasn't in the picture,
my dad wouldn't have gone.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
And her parents worried if they weren't in Minnesota, Jesus
might not be able to find them when he returned.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I think it happened pretty quickly that they sold the house.
We packed up our belongings, and we made the drive
out there to the Shepherd's Camp. I thought it would
be just like how it was when we visited, getting
to do animal care, playing soccer, ice skating in the winter, snowmobiling.
(28:38):
I never thought it would develop into what it was.
Right before we arrived in Minnesota, on our way to
move there, my mom was joking, maybe kind of being serious,
but that she should put on her wedding dress so
that she would be in her wedding dress when we
arrived at the camp, basically saying she was giving her life,
(29:02):
you know, which if you think of it as so sick,
like my dad was right, you know, like I just
I don't understand what was going with their heads, and
I don't know that I'll ever be able to understand
what they were thinking.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Do you think it was almost like she felt as
though she was marrying the camp, the community, almost kind
of victor. Yeah, I think so, Lindsay's mom was ready
to give up everything, and that's what Victor wanted. Does
anything stand out to you as your first big memory
(29:43):
from early on when you first started living there.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I do remember one time my sister got in a
lot of trouble. She's the youngest girl, she would have
been five. I don't even know what she did, but
somebody like picked her up and shook her so hard
that she peed herself. And I'm feeling so sad and
upset for her. I don't even think I knew what
(30:10):
to do. Our parents had punished us a lot growing up,
but nothing to that extent to where you would pee yourself.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
And what was the adult attitude towards it. Did anyone
seem surprised that that harsh of a punishment, No was happening.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
No, nobody seemed surprised at all.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
What was strange in the outside world was normal here,
and Linda would have to get used to this new life,
this world with its own rules. Victor said. The members
of River Road had to leave behind their earthly things,
anything that would pull them away from Jesus. So one day,
the families gathered in the middle of a gated field
near one of the barns. They lit a massive bonfire
(30:56):
that took up a large part of the yard. People
started to their belongings to the field. One by one,
they threw them onto the fire. The physical reminders of
their past began to burn.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I do remember that feeling like what like there were
couches in there, somebody drove their motorcycle. They got rid
of it. Jewelry, pictures, videos, clothes. I remember we had
these like Christian like kids songs on tape, and we
got rid of those. I didn't really understand it. I
(31:32):
was like, why do we have to get rid of
all this stuff? It was piled high at that point,
I mean, being twelve and tiny, I thought it looked
as big as a house. It was hot, so hot.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Lindsay didn't own much back then, but she knew she
was expected to sacrifice something. She went and got the
teddy bear she'd had since before she could remember.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I think he's the only thing that reminds me of
my earthly life, so I'll throw him in there.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
She tossed her bear on the fire and watched it burn.
She felt a deep sadness inside her, but also guilt
and the sense that that sadness was a bad influence,
that she should stop that feeling because that sadness might
hold her back from living for Jesus' return. It was
(32:38):
one of the first times she would learn to question
her emotions, one of the first times she would have
to give something up for the religious group her parents
had decided to join. The fire grew bigger. She felt
the heat on her face.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Sparks coming out of it. It was wild, It really was.
I've never seen anything like that in my life. The
flames just dancing. It felt like they were reaching to
the sky. It lasted for three days. The fire continually burned.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Coming up this season on.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
The Turning this especially Agent Jackie Doer the FBI Baltimore Division.
It is ten oh four am on Wednesday, March twenty seven,
twenty thirteen. How did your parents get into what's refer
to as a cult?
Speaker 5 (34:00):
I remember feeling like I couldn't say no. I didn't
even know if my parents would want me back because
they gave me to him. I just remember feeling almost
like I had no other options, that the only thing
to say was yes. That I would say, and all
ten of us said yes.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
How can one person control so many people and change
their will.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I don't care what happens when Jesus Christ comes back.
Whatever happens to me, it cannot possibly be worse than this.
That thought scared me. My heart was beating out of
my chest. I felt like I could hear it. He
was talking about how much God loved me, and how
(34:49):
special I was, and how God had chosen me. We
had these oil lanterns on the walls, and we were
all just standing in a line. When we're chosen, we
had decided to give our lives. This is almost like
the ultimate sacrifice.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts.
It's written and produced by Erica Lance and Me. Our
story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed by
James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact checking
by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John Parratti
(35:36):
and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch, and Katrina Norvell and
Nikki Etur at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us on
Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out via
email The Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. I'm Alan
Lance Lesser, Thanks for listening,
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