November 26, 2023 • 26 mins
Embark on a journey through the shadows of an unconventional coming-of-age story. Meet Alex Huggins, a screenwriter and director who broke free from the clutches of Mormons in Utah, forging an unexpected path to a new home. Join us as we unmask the layers of corruption in the Mormon community, grapple with identity, and explore the essence of what truly counts each day.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Beyond imaginable.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Embark in a journey through the shadows of an unconventional
coming of age story. Meet Alex Huggins, a screenwriter and
director who broke free from the clutches of the Mormon
Church in Utah, forging an unexpected path to a new home.
Join us as we unmask the layers of corruption in
(00:24):
the Mormon Church, grapple with identity, and explore the essence
of what Trudy counts each day. I'm your host, Jimmy
Bron and you're listening to the Unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
My name is Alex Huggins, raised in Salt Lake City, Utah.
My parents are from Porter Prince Hadi and they were
both born there. My dad's like, I think, eleven years
older than my mom. My mom moved to the States
in the early twenties. I'm not sure when my dad
came here, but I think he came to the States
(00:59):
before and they met each other in Boston. And my
dad he wasn't around when I was a kid, but he,
you know, like it kind of in and out. I
don't have many photos of of my family, but I
remember seeing like images of my dad, like picture photos
(01:20):
of my dad and like, you know, he like seemed
really you know, he looked he looks very cool, Like
he looks like a really cool guy. My cousin's described
him like the fun uncle. But he was definitely like
a rolling stone. And I think I think the I
think the age gap for my parents is interesting too,
just because you know, it's very it's very classic. But
(01:42):
I think she was definitely like infantalized by him a
little bit with whatever he was doing. Had a very
colorful kind of operatic romance, lots of drama in and
out and passion you know, like you know, yelling in
the street, like type love. So they met each other
(02:03):
in Boston, and my oldest sister was born there. My dad,
I guess at the time, like ID just met some
Mormon missionaries. He bought what they were selling and decided
to pack up and move to Utah, And so my
mom did the same thing. Five years later my sister,
my other sister was born, and then I was born
(02:25):
a year after. So there's like a six year gap
between my oldest sister and like about like fourteen months
between my other sister Gabby and Guyel. They the best
are really great. But yeah, so we just like we
grew up in Utah, which is a weird place I
think now, like you know, it's still to this day,
I think about Utah and I can't believe that's where
(02:46):
I'm from sometimes because there are no black people there,
and it's a really weird. It's a really weird thing.
In hindsight, I didn't realize how important of a factor
that was or is in my like life narrative until
(03:07):
like much later, because yeah, I mean, it's just such
a weird, homogenous place. But yeah, my my my parents
got divorced when I was a kid, when I was born.
Pretty much for my mom, I think raising three kids
by herself and Utah was difficult, but she never decided
(03:27):
to leave. She's I mean, she's still there to this day,
which I found to be very interesting too because I
feel like there's like so much there's so much very
strange and specific drama in our lives that I feel
that I feel like maybe like maybe it's like more
of like a like a bewitching or like a like
a cosmic thing. But I feel like I feel like
(03:49):
Utah plays a huge like Utah is a place geographically
plays a huge part in like kind of just like
the weird chaos of our lives. I mean, you know
it's it's it's a church rand state, you know, manifest destiny.
It was, you know, it's the Mormons. They did that
and like and migrated west and they landed on Utah,
(04:09):
and it was kind of like, you know, still like
outlaw territorials, still like the wild West. You know, they
were kind of like the rogue weirdos in American history
at the time because they're Joseph Smith their leader, and
like the the you know, his death and then the
coming into prominence of bringing me young and moving out
to Utah, and like the the bifurcation of the church
(04:33):
and in terms of like the fundamentalist lds who like
upheld polygamy and like, yeah, I don't know, it's just
it's it's a really weird thing because they because you know,
like while like while the rest of America was partaking
in this discourse around like slavery and whatnot, like they
were just like we are out of we were out
(04:53):
of that dialogue. We're doing our own thing, mainly because
like they have their own like weird like political headbutting
going on with the United States government at the time,
and so it's like it's like seeing I don't know,
like seeing that place prosper now. It's like there's so
much money and access hidden Utah, it's all based in
the church pretty much like you know, they started like
(05:15):
multi level marketing the first like religious group to like
you know separate from like you know, from classic like
Protestantism or like Christianity and like yeah like like gain
a state. You know, like scientologists like wish they were
warmon you know. It's like l Ron Hubbard was like
(05:36):
trying to do that thing beyond I think like black
people weren't allowed to receive the priesthood or like be
members of the church until like nineteen like seventy six
or seventy four or something. It bothered me by my dad.
(05:56):
I was like, why would you want to be a
part of of something that is so like life defining
that like didn't that didn't even allow you. And you know,
until it became like a you know, it was like
you know, it's all for fiscal purposes. It's like once
(06:16):
they're once they once they realized that like their missionary
work could like should grow their their religious net worth.
Uh yeah, it's just like the missionary work fucking skyrocketed
when you join the church, Like they provide like a
pantry and like uh like kind of like a yeah,
(06:38):
kind of like yeah, it's like yeah, it's like a
food pantry, like a like a Kroger or something that
pretty good stuff too. Is like fucking it was like
the poor Man's Costco.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
It's like we could go there, pull up and get
we'd get so much food, pack out the fridge and stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I'd send missionaries around to to do rounds at your
house or whatever. And like my mom got baptized in
the so she could get these benefits, but she never
went to she never went to church, and so they
would send missionary to our house to try and get
us to go to church, and then they do like
Bible study with us and stuff. But my mom would
just like like my mom would just like you know,
like a part of their work is to is to
(07:15):
do service work for the community. So my mom would
get them to like mow our lawn and like clean
gutters and stuff, and like I think you like do
like like help with the laundry and so like you know,
you'd be in the house sometimes instead of like maids.
It'd be like a like a nineteen year old dude
from Nebraska, like your mom pretty smart. Yeah, it's just
(07:38):
like some like nineteen year old kids in Nebraska. Like
you're like yeah, like like washing or like you like
you're like helping her organize the garage or something. You know.
It's a good deal, Yeah, a pretty good deal. It's
a suchually weird places. It's so beautiful. It's like really,
I think it's like I think it's I think it's
one of the most beautiful places in the country outside
(07:59):
of like Alaska, maybe because you get the rocky mountains,
you get this desert. It's like it's like it's kind
of like out of this world. But there's so many
like there's so many weird like ghosts there. I feel,
what do you mean, Because it's just like the like
because of the nature of the organization, like you know, yeah,
and like and like, you know, I think it's like
(08:19):
it's like funny now too. And I don't even know
why I feel this way, but I don't, like I
don't like shitting on it anymore. I feel like when
I was like younger, you know, I was like angry
and I would like I would like talk shit on
Utah and like, you know, say all these like you know,
like these like backhanded things. But I think I really
think they growing up they like really kind of messed
with my mind, you know. I guess I'll get into
(08:39):
that a little bit. It's like my mom, like, you know,
God bless her. I haven't I haven't spoken to either
my parents and like like almost ten years now, and
it's kind of and it's and it's weird.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
That's a long time.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, it's a really long time. Really, ten years is athlete?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I thought, I think call that a decade.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, decade.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
I didn't have an emphathet, right, that's even.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Longer, would you say like that? It's like, oh, like
I've lived in here for two decades now. It's like, oh,
so you're fucking dinos.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
It's a long time.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah no, But I mean, like it's really a
big it's you know, it's the thing I've been talking
to like my sister's about lately too, because like my sister,
my oldest sister, has two kids, and just like the.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Way they're growing up, it's like it's so dramatically different
from the way we grew up. You know my mom
wasn't you know. I you know, I think now I
can say this in all confidence, like I really do
love her and I appreciate her because I don't think
her life is easy at all. I mean, like like
(09:51):
like moving to to Utah in the fucking like early eighties,
it's like a as like a Haitian woman and like
you know, joining workforces and like just existing is like
fucking weird, had been weird.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
It's like it sounds like the beginning of like yeah something,
you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, yeah. I think about it narratively now, like you know,
you know, I'm not the I'm not that kind of
like like introspective like self, you know, like like just
like just like autobiographical filmmaker. But it's like I definitely
like you know, I like I definitely have seen like
the image in my head of like what the fuck
(10:31):
is that story of this like person. It's another thing too,
because like my you know, my parents are very like
well like one my dad kind of like started to
lose his mind in the church and like he used
to It's like it's like it's such a it's such
a shame because he used to we were kids. He
like filmed everything, like he videotaped every single moment of
(10:51):
our lives. Like it was it was nuts, Like we
had a we had a room in our house, we
had like like all those DoD footage, Like dude, Beyond that,
I was like caught up in like a like there's
lots of like CPS stuff, like child Protective Services stuff
(11:12):
going on, and like my my friend's family like took
me out of our house and I got emancipated at
at pretty young age. And and it's like now, in hindsight,
I really kind of you know, it's like you know,
it is what it is, but like I don't like
the reality of like these people kind of coming in
and not really knowing every angle of the situation, you know,
(11:35):
like forcing my mother to like show up in court
and have these people with like you know, a much
stronger like warrior force behind. It's just like it's the
system is so fucked and then like you know it's
and then it's like also like a lot of this too.
I think I think realizing that a lot of this
was like you know, the way that you're kind of
like forced to process this on the spot as a
kid and kind of like you know, like you know,
(11:57):
you kind of you kind of get like manipulated into
telling things a certain way because like you know, at
the end of the day, like you know your child
and you want to you want to believe that somebody's
caring about you. But then it's like you're talking to
like a legal team that just wants to win a case,
you know, and it's like it's just like it's a
weird dichonomy. And then like you know, like now think
(12:18):
you know it makes me I think, you know, I
definitely felt guilty for a long time about like putting
my mom in that situation, but then also like having
to recognize like the situations that she put us in
that were not the best, and like, you know, it's
just kind of it's just a weird back and forth.
(12:38):
I tried to come out to New York and like
I was like sixteen, I moved out here and I
was doing it. I was like studying architecture at the time.
I was at Parsons and I was just so I was, yeah, sixteen,
I was like I don't know what the fuck I'm doing,
Like I couldn't. I was like living with said family,
(12:59):
their friend and this one, this very affluent woman who
lived on the Upper West Side. I'm going to keep
names a minute, because that's funny.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I had my already.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
We all know, yeah, yeah, but you know it is crazy.
Imagine like we just like I remember actually when I
when I first moved to It's like it was like
twenty twelve. I had gotten off the plane. I got
off the plane at like Laguardi or JFK, and I
took a cab. I had no idea what I was doing.
I took a cab to the address that I've been
(13:31):
giving and like it pulls up to the Central Park
West and I'm like looking at a building like this
has got to be wrong, you know, I'm like, what them?
And so I so I walked into the lobby with
my double back and ship and I looked around. I
was like what is this? And I like left the
building and I stood out there and I called somebody.
I was like this right, yeah, it's right, you know.
I went inside and I was just like what is
(13:54):
It's probably one of the nicest places I'll ever live.
I lived there for like like two years, like pretty
much by myself, and uh, it just like, yeah, I
went to Parsons and I went back. I never really
left like Manhattan, because I was just like, I was
like really scared. I was really intimidated by it all.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
That woman who was she? Like, how was she involved?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So she was she was a she was So my friend,
my friend's family, my like high school friend whose family
like kind of facilitated or like helped me get emancipated.
I was living with them. What I actually entail. Yeah,
So being emancipated, it's like just like legally, like if
you're under the age of eighteen, if you have, if
(14:37):
you have like you can you can propose pretty much
to like the local government that like that, like you
are stable enough and like to be considered an adult
to like to to exist, for you to speak to
yourself on your on your own be hat.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
So that was a way out.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
That was a way out. It was a way for
me to just like get out of a situation pretty much. Yeah,
which is interesting. It's crazy too. I still have all
that fucking paperwork somewhere. But it's like I think in
the state of Utah, like the only there's like six
other people who had been emancipated.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Really it was quite intensive process.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, it's pretty intense. Yeah, you have references. You you
have somebody that come and like observe your like home life,
you have, like you have like you know, you have
to have like crazy like you know, you know, evidence
of like you know, why why why you would want
to be leaving the you know, the home of your
(15:38):
of your mother, of your of your guardian In Ireland.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I'm just thinking if in Ireland, if there was an
emouncipation test and would probably be like a drunk driver test,
you know, and.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Time out of that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Exactly exactly d back.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Everyone's like no, there's be no monstipations.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And everyone's everyone's failing.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
They're all still.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
There trying to take that monstipation death.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I think it was like the only other SECTU who
had been a mancipated. We're like we're like you know
in like very toxic like situations in like the in
like the polygamoust like uh, communities of the state that
were like probably like overseen by the dude Warren Jeffs.
I don't know if you know that guy like a
like a polygamous like FLDS prophet, Like it's just like
(16:35):
you know, like just you know, had like fucking twenty
wives under the age of like fucking yeah, under the
age of eighteen. And it was like just like a lot, dude.
It's like there's there's documentaries about the shit. It's like
it's some of the bleakest shit you'll see. Dude, I
got it, Like.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Like that's a whole lot of conversation, but it's.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
A whole other conversation truly. It's bizarre shit for real. Yeah,
So that whole process happened, and like through them, I
met this woman who, Yeah, it was just like in
like the field that I was studying. She has a
lot of cachet and like had this place for me
(17:16):
to stay, and like, you know, everyone's kind of everyone's
very infantilized by the story of this, like you know,
young black person who can who's like you know, you know,
like fighting against all odds to fuck you know, just
some fucking like like stupid like like sob story ship.
(17:38):
This this family that I was with, their Jewish people,
like a wealthy Jewish family, and they had a friend
in New York who who was like, yeah, I'm going
to help you too, cool And I was like okay, cool.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So you started like college young.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, young, Yeah, And I and I so geah like
left high school and I went out there and I
did that for like for like two years, maybe like
a year and a half rather than I and I
I think during that time, I just like started to
realize like like this maybe isn't what I thought it was.
(18:20):
And like, I think I definitely started started to settle.
Like I think I didn't really know what like what
like and.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I think that's okay, right, you know, like yeah, yeah,
you know totally totally. It's like that's a it's a
tough one to go from, Like that's such a cool
tuck to go from that environment to you know, to
the Upper West Side and be studying.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah yeah, what the fuck? Yeah yeah, I mean I
really had no idea, and I think I I think
I also didn't realize like how much like just like
I think what I really wanted at the time more
than anything was just like it was just like a family,
you know. Yeah, Like and I wasn't considering like how
(19:04):
just like lonely and scared I was about to be
because I think I I think it didn't you know,
there's there's no point where I like sat down with
anybody and talked about how I was feeling about the
whole situation, So.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That would make me to believe that you did. There
was a sense of family there. Obviously your parents are there,
but like even within the church kind of structure and
just the environment and how that plays.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Out day to day.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I think probably in the moment, it's obviously very hard
to recognize that, oh, this is a thing that actually
does provide me a level of security or safety or whatever.
And when you come out of that and you don't
have that anymore, then all of a sudden you find
that in a new place, and it's like when you
look back, did you really buy in like when you
(19:52):
were there?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Like are we always looking.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
For a way buy buy into the church? Ever?
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Yeah, like the whole thing because because obviously, like dude,
like never, never, I never did like give even more
context even like being with like my friend's family or
just existing there at all.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Like because like my mom was like a like devout
like Baptist, like Christian in contrast to my dad's Mormonism.
So like she she utilized her like Baptism in the
Mormon church is like pure utility to like get like
help with paying the mortgage and like to like to
like to as like the band aid for having like
(20:28):
a dead beat ex husband, you know, and like and
like my dad had like you were to.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Be aware of kind of like exactly what was going on.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I think, like I think even that like I wasn't
even I mean, like of course I had like older sisters,
and so I have them to like bound like my
Mi like I ow my oldest sister, like she has
like very very clear memories of this stuff. But I
think like like when like things were like at their worst,
I think I really I did a lot of like
like when I talk to them, like I can, I can.
(20:58):
I have like memories that I definitely don't want to remember,
you know, and it's like it's like and it's like
it's like it's like another thing too. I think I'm
like definitely like past this point where you know, I
don't really like to speak about abuse or anything in
like deep detail. Is this thing that's like very easy
to like verbally romanticize.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
As somebody that like kind of understands trauma, like understands
like kay, like life does not work out the.
Speaker 6 (21:23):
Way you think right right and traumatically, so like you
had a traumatic upbringing, but we're aware of it.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
You didn't want to be there, you were looking for
a way. You understood that your mom was in a
hard spot. And you also talk about your family favorably no,
which is cool right yeah. Yeah, to add on to that,
like if you have done the work, the work in
like quotations, you know, where you can look back at
(21:54):
your life and say, well, this happened, this happened. Have
I thought through this? Have I given real consideration? And
have I realized how this affected me? And was I
part of the blim or was I not?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Was it totally total?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
That stuff?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
If you can kind of get through all that and
that you know that doesn't have to take years. Yea,
And like you through that and realize that obviously, like
you know, the way that you grew up is going
to affect how you see this world Like that is obvious, right.
I don't want my identity to be the traumatic past,
you know. I want my identity to be what I
(22:34):
want for my future and like and who I am
this moment?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, I mean, because it's really crazy now, Jimmy. When
I was a kid, I just remember feeling very uncomfortable
all the time, you know, and like and like my
mom like again, like God blessed her, Like she's just
so she's a really hurt person. She's really hurting all
the time. And I don't like blame her anymore. You know.
It's like it's like it's like a I think you know,
(23:00):
like like like a part of the Mormon doctrine is
to have as many kids as possible because like because
like the idea is that you're supposed to populate your
planet in the afterlife.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It's so relevant to what's happening right now in the
world where like, yeah, okay, so you've got you've got
these people that believe in something I have good for you.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Whatever you believe in, that's your thing. You believe in
whatever God it may be. That's fine. I'm not going
to object.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But when when you kind of like die to yourself
whatever you want to call it, and serve this greater
power that you have no guarantee whatsoever any of these
riches in heaven, any of these versions that you may
have if you're a.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Like you know, and also by the way, like what
kind of like you know, what kind of a thing.
Is that the import but anyway, but you know, so basically,
you know, if you dedicate yourself to that. I can't
remember who said it, but like a life not questioned,
there's a life not for living or something like that.
It's very very convenient to latch onto an ideology, yeah
(24:14):
and say this is the way it is. Yeah, and
like because that's simple, right, and that's and like, look,
I did that before I was born again believer, and
I you know, I did the whole thing, and like
now I've kind of gotten older, like even with what
you're saying, like just kind of looking back at stuff,
I'm like, man, I needed that at that point, and
that's why I've never taken away from anyone. But it
(24:36):
is just kind of it's just interesting to me because
the world gets so fucked up so quickly when so
many people believe the same thing. If somebody is able
to convince enough people of one thing, the ripple effect
of that can be unthinkable.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
So why do we not question what we believe?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Why do we not put more time and thought into
who we are where we can him from totally?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
What's important?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I think family is probably like the the most valuable
thing and that doesn't mean my blood.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
You know, people like like you know.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Like people you can call and say, hey, like, yeah,
I do I have to pay these punts?
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah? You know, I like I don't. Suis honest and
like like not even like even not even to like
be like like be embarrassed, right But it's like people
are just like I'm just being myself right now. I'm
just like this is like you know, these are these
are people who I just like trust like with like
every yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, yeah, you know like when you know, yeah do
you have when you have that like that, it's the
the the the love on the support and the of
that really sets you up for a good day.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, you know, for a good day. And that's really
kind of all you need, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
It's like, yeah, you wake up about.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You wake up in the morning, just text your buddy
and it's just like hey, like that's what like that's
what like that's what trace is to me, And it's
what like that's what like, you know, my sisters are
to me, and it's like a lot of like my
really really close friends here in New York are to me.
It's like it's kind of when I realized like New
York is like my home.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Beyond that,
Beyond imaginable.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Embark in a journey through the shadows of an unconventional
coming of age story. Meet Alex Huggins, a screenwriter and
director who broke free from the clutches of the Mormon
Church in Utah, forging an unexpected path to a new home.
Join us as we unmask the layers of corruption in
(00:24):
the Mormon Church, grapple with identity, and explore the essence
of what Trudy counts each day. I'm your host, Jimmy
Bron and you're listening to the Unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
My name is Alex Huggins, raised in Salt Lake City, Utah.
My parents are from Porter Prince Hadi and they were
both born there. My dad's like, I think, eleven years
older than my mom. My mom moved to the States
in the early twenties. I'm not sure when my dad
came here, but I think he came to the States
(00:59):
before and they met each other in Boston. And my
dad he wasn't around when I was a kid, but he,
you know, like it kind of in and out. I
don't have many photos of of my family, but I
remember seeing like images of my dad, like picture photos
(01:20):
of my dad and like, you know, he like seemed
really you know, he looked he looks very cool, Like
he looks like a really cool guy. My cousin's described
him like the fun uncle. But he was definitely like
a rolling stone. And I think I think the I
think the age gap for my parents is interesting too,
just because you know, it's very it's very classic. But
(01:42):
I think she was definitely like infantalized by him a
little bit with whatever he was doing. Had a very
colorful kind of operatic romance, lots of drama in and
out and passion you know, like you know, yelling in
the street, like type love. So they met each other
(02:03):
in Boston, and my oldest sister was born there. My dad,
I guess at the time, like ID just met some
Mormon missionaries. He bought what they were selling and decided
to pack up and move to Utah, And so my
mom did the same thing. Five years later my sister,
my other sister was born, and then I was born
(02:25):
a year after. So there's like a six year gap
between my oldest sister and like about like fourteen months
between my other sister Gabby and Guyel. They the best
are really great. But yeah, so we just like we
grew up in Utah, which is a weird place I
think now, like you know, it's still to this day,
I think about Utah and I can't believe that's where
(02:46):
I'm from sometimes because there are no black people there,
and it's a really weird. It's a really weird thing.
In hindsight, I didn't realize how important of a factor
that was or is in my like life narrative until
(03:07):
like much later, because yeah, I mean, it's just such
a weird, homogenous place. But yeah, my my my parents
got divorced when I was a kid, when I was born.
Pretty much for my mom, I think raising three kids
by herself and Utah was difficult, but she never decided
(03:27):
to leave. She's I mean, she's still there to this day,
which I found to be very interesting too because I
feel like there's like so much there's so much very
strange and specific drama in our lives that I feel
that I feel like maybe like maybe it's like more
of like a like a bewitching or like a like
a cosmic thing. But I feel like I feel like
(03:49):
Utah plays a huge like Utah is a place geographically
plays a huge part in like kind of just like
the weird chaos of our lives. I mean, you know
it's it's it's a church rand state, you know, manifest destiny.
It was, you know, it's the Mormons. They did that
and like and migrated west and they landed on Utah,
(04:09):
and it was kind of like, you know, still like
outlaw territorials, still like the wild West. You know, they
were kind of like the rogue weirdos in American history
at the time because they're Joseph Smith their leader, and
like the the you know, his death and then the
coming into prominence of bringing me young and moving out
to Utah, and like the the bifurcation of the church
(04:33):
and in terms of like the fundamentalist lds who like
upheld polygamy and like, yeah, I don't know, it's just
it's it's a really weird thing because they because you know,
like while like while the rest of America was partaking
in this discourse around like slavery and whatnot, like they
were just like we are out of we were out
(04:53):
of that dialogue. We're doing our own thing, mainly because
like they have their own like weird like political headbutting
going on with the United States government at the time,
and so it's like it's like seeing I don't know,
like seeing that place prosper now. It's like there's so
much money and access hidden Utah, it's all based in
the church pretty much like you know, they started like
(05:15):
multi level marketing the first like religious group to like
you know separate from like you know, from classic like
Protestantism or like Christianity and like yeah like like gain
a state. You know, like scientologists like wish they were
warmon you know. It's like l Ron Hubbard was like
(05:36):
trying to do that thing beyond I think like black
people weren't allowed to receive the priesthood or like be
members of the church until like nineteen like seventy six
or seventy four or something. It bothered me by my dad.
(05:56):
I was like, why would you want to be a
part of of something that is so like life defining
that like didn't that didn't even allow you. And you know,
until it became like a you know, it was like
you know, it's all for fiscal purposes. It's like once
(06:16):
they're once they once they realized that like their missionary
work could like should grow their their religious net worth.
Uh yeah, it's just like the missionary work fucking skyrocketed
when you join the church, Like they provide like a
pantry and like uh like kind of like a yeah,
(06:38):
kind of like yeah, it's like yeah, it's like a
food pantry, like a like a Kroger or something that
pretty good stuff too. Is like fucking it was like
the poor Man's Costco.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
It's like we could go there, pull up and get
we'd get so much food, pack out the fridge and stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I'd send missionaries around to to do rounds at your
house or whatever. And like my mom got baptized in
the so she could get these benefits, but she never
went to she never went to church, and so they
would send missionary to our house to try and get
us to go to church, and then they do like
Bible study with us and stuff. But my mom would
just like like my mom would just like you know,
like a part of their work is to is to
(07:15):
do service work for the community. So my mom would
get them to like mow our lawn and like clean
gutters and stuff, and like I think you like do
like like help with the laundry and so like you know,
you'd be in the house sometimes instead of like maids.
It'd be like a like a nineteen year old dude
from Nebraska, like your mom pretty smart. Yeah, it's just
(07:38):
like some like nineteen year old kids in Nebraska. Like
you're like yeah, like like washing or like you like
you're like helping her organize the garage or something. You know.
It's a good deal, Yeah, a pretty good deal. It's
a suchually weird places. It's so beautiful. It's like really,
I think it's like I think it's I think it's
one of the most beautiful places in the country outside
(07:59):
of like Alaska, maybe because you get the rocky mountains,
you get this desert. It's like it's like it's kind
of like out of this world. But there's so many
like there's so many weird like ghosts there. I feel,
what do you mean, Because it's just like the like
because of the nature of the organization, like you know, yeah,
and like and like, you know, I think it's like
(08:19):
it's like funny now too. And I don't even know
why I feel this way, but I don't, like I
don't like shitting on it anymore. I feel like when
I was like younger, you know, I was like angry
and I would like I would like talk shit on
Utah and like, you know, say all these like you know,
like these like backhanded things. But I think I really
think they growing up they like really kind of messed
with my mind, you know. I guess I'll get into
(08:39):
that a little bit. It's like my mom, like, you know,
God bless her. I haven't I haven't spoken to either
my parents and like like almost ten years now, and
it's kind of and it's and it's weird.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
That's a long time.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, it's a really long time. Really, ten years is athlete?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I thought, I think call that a decade.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, decade.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
I didn't have an emphathet, right, that's even.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Longer, would you say like that? It's like, oh, like
I've lived in here for two decades now. It's like, oh,
so you're fucking dinos.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
It's a long time.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah no, But I mean, like it's really a
big it's you know, it's the thing I've been talking
to like my sister's about lately too, because like my sister,
my oldest sister, has two kids, and just like the.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Way they're growing up, it's like it's so dramatically different
from the way we grew up. You know my mom
wasn't you know. I you know, I think now I
can say this in all confidence, like I really do
love her and I appreciate her because I don't think
her life is easy at all. I mean, like like
(09:51):
like moving to to Utah in the fucking like early eighties,
it's like a as like a Haitian woman and like
you know, joining workforces and like just existing is like
fucking weird, had been weird.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
It's like it sounds like the beginning of like yeah something,
you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, yeah. I think about it narratively now, like you know,
you know, I'm not the I'm not that kind of
like like introspective like self, you know, like like just
like just like autobiographical filmmaker. But it's like I definitely
like you know, I like I definitely have seen like
the image in my head of like what the fuck
(10:31):
is that story of this like person. It's another thing too,
because like my you know, my parents are very like
well like one my dad kind of like started to
lose his mind in the church and like he used
to It's like it's like it's such a it's such
a shame because he used to we were kids. He
like filmed everything, like he videotaped every single moment of
(10:51):
our lives. Like it was it was nuts, Like we
had a we had a room in our house, we
had like like all those DoD footage, Like dude, Beyond that,
I was like caught up in like a like there's
lots of like CPS stuff, like child Protective Services stuff
(11:12):
going on, and like my my friend's family like took
me out of our house and I got emancipated at
at pretty young age. And and it's like now, in hindsight,
I really kind of you know, it's like you know,
it is what it is, but like I don't like
the reality of like these people kind of coming in
and not really knowing every angle of the situation, you know,
(11:35):
like forcing my mother to like show up in court
and have these people with like you know, a much
stronger like warrior force behind. It's just like it's the
system is so fucked and then like you know it's
and then it's like also like a lot of this too.
I think I think realizing that a lot of this
was like you know, the way that you're kind of
like forced to process this on the spot as a
kid and kind of like you know, like you know,
(11:57):
you kind of you kind of get like manipulated into
telling things a certain way because like you know, at
the end of the day, like you know your child
and you want to you want to believe that somebody's
caring about you. But then it's like you're talking to
like a legal team that just wants to win a case,
you know, and it's like it's just like it's a
weird dichonomy. And then like you know, like now think
(12:18):
you know it makes me I think, you know, I
definitely felt guilty for a long time about like putting
my mom in that situation, but then also like having
to recognize like the situations that she put us in
that were not the best, and like, you know, it's
just kind of it's just a weird back and forth.
(12:38):
I tried to come out to New York and like
I was like sixteen, I moved out here and I
was doing it. I was like studying architecture at the time.
I was at Parsons and I was just so I was, yeah, sixteen,
I was like I don't know what the fuck I'm doing,
Like I couldn't. I was like living with said family,
(12:59):
their friend and this one, this very affluent woman who
lived on the Upper West Side. I'm going to keep
names a minute, because that's funny.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I had my already.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
We all know, yeah, yeah, but you know it is crazy.
Imagine like we just like I remember actually when I
when I first moved to It's like it was like
twenty twelve. I had gotten off the plane. I got
off the plane at like Laguardi or JFK, and I
took a cab. I had no idea what I was doing.
I took a cab to the address that I've been
(13:31):
giving and like it pulls up to the Central Park
West and I'm like looking at a building like this
has got to be wrong, you know, I'm like, what them?
And so I so I walked into the lobby with
my double back and ship and I looked around. I
was like what is this? And I like left the
building and I stood out there and I called somebody.
I was like this right, yeah, it's right, you know.
I went inside and I was just like what is
(13:54):
It's probably one of the nicest places I'll ever live.
I lived there for like like two years, like pretty
much by myself, and uh, it just like, yeah, I
went to Parsons and I went back. I never really
left like Manhattan, because I was just like, I was
like really scared. I was really intimidated by it all.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
That woman who was she? Like, how was she involved?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So she was she was a she was So my friend,
my friend's family, my like high school friend whose family
like kind of facilitated or like helped me get emancipated.
I was living with them. What I actually entail. Yeah,
So being emancipated, it's like just like legally, like if
you're under the age of eighteen, if you have, if
(14:37):
you have like you can you can propose pretty much
to like the local government that like that, like you
are stable enough and like to be considered an adult
to like to to exist, for you to speak to
yourself on your on your own be hat.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
So that was a way out.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
That was a way out. It was a way for
me to just like get out of a situation pretty much. Yeah,
which is interesting. It's crazy too. I still have all
that fucking paperwork somewhere. But it's like I think in
the state of Utah, like the only there's like six
other people who had been emancipated.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Really it was quite intensive process.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, it's pretty intense. Yeah, you have references. You you
have somebody that come and like observe your like home life,
you have, like you have like you know, you have
to have like crazy like you know, you know, evidence
of like you know, why why why you would want
to be leaving the you know, the home of your
(15:38):
of your mother, of your of your guardian In Ireland.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I'm just thinking if in Ireland, if there was an
emouncipation test and would probably be like a drunk driver test,
you know, and.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Time out of that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Exactly exactly d back.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Everyone's like no, there's be no monstipations.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And everyone's everyone's failing.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
They're all still.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
There trying to take that monstipation death.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I think it was like the only other SECTU who
had been a mancipated. We're like we're like you know
in like very toxic like situations in like the in
like the polygamoust like uh, communities of the state that
were like probably like overseen by the dude Warren Jeffs.
I don't know if you know that guy like a
like a polygamous like FLDS prophet, Like it's just like
(16:35):
you know, like just you know, had like fucking twenty
wives under the age of like fucking yeah, under the
age of eighteen. And it was like just like a lot, dude.
It's like there's there's documentaries about the shit. It's like
it's some of the bleakest shit you'll see. Dude, I
got it, Like.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Like that's a whole lot of conversation, but it's.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
A whole other conversation truly. It's bizarre shit for real. Yeah,
So that whole process happened, and like through them, I
met this woman who, Yeah, it was just like in
like the field that I was studying. She has a
lot of cachet and like had this place for me
(17:16):
to stay, and like, you know, everyone's kind of everyone's
very infantilized by the story of this, like you know,
young black person who can who's like you know, you know,
like fighting against all odds to fuck you know, just
some fucking like like stupid like like sob story ship.
(17:38):
This this family that I was with, their Jewish people,
like a wealthy Jewish family, and they had a friend
in New York who who was like, yeah, I'm going
to help you too, cool And I was like okay, cool.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So you started like college young.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, young, Yeah, And I and I so geah like
left high school and I went out there and I
did that for like for like two years, maybe like
a year and a half rather than I and I
I think during that time, I just like started to
realize like like this maybe isn't what I thought it was.
(18:20):
And like, I think I definitely started started to settle.
Like I think I didn't really know what like what
like and.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I think that's okay, right, you know, like yeah, yeah,
you know totally totally. It's like that's a it's a
tough one to go from, Like that's such a cool
tuck to go from that environment to you know, to
the Upper West Side and be studying.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah yeah, what the fuck? Yeah yeah, I mean I
really had no idea, and I think I I think
I also didn't realize like how much like just like
I think what I really wanted at the time more
than anything was just like it was just like a family,
you know. Yeah, Like and I wasn't considering like how
(19:04):
just like lonely and scared I was about to be
because I think I I think it didn't you know,
there's there's no point where I like sat down with
anybody and talked about how I was feeling about the
whole situation, So.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That would make me to believe that you did. There
was a sense of family there. Obviously your parents are there,
but like even within the church kind of structure and
just the environment and how that plays.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Out day to day.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I think probably in the moment, it's obviously very hard
to recognize that, oh, this is a thing that actually
does provide me a level of security or safety or whatever.
And when you come out of that and you don't
have that anymore, then all of a sudden you find
that in a new place, and it's like when you
look back, did you really buy in like when you
(19:52):
were there?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Like are we always looking.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
For a way buy buy into the church? Ever?
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Yeah, like the whole thing because because obviously, like dude,
like never, never, I never did like give even more
context even like being with like my friend's family or
just existing there at all.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Like because like my mom was like a like devout
like Baptist, like Christian in contrast to my dad's Mormonism.
So like she she utilized her like Baptism in the
Mormon church is like pure utility to like get like
help with paying the mortgage and like to like to
like to as like the band aid for having like
(20:28):
a dead beat ex husband, you know, and like and
like my dad had like you were to.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Be aware of kind of like exactly what was going on.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I think, like I think even that like I wasn't
even I mean, like of course I had like older sisters,
and so I have them to like bound like my
Mi like I ow my oldest sister, like she has
like very very clear memories of this stuff. But I
think like like when like things were like at their worst,
I think I really I did a lot of like
like when I talk to them, like I can, I can.
(20:58):
I have like memories that I definitely don't want to remember,
you know, and it's like it's like and it's like
it's like it's like another thing too. I think I'm
like definitely like past this point where you know, I
don't really like to speak about abuse or anything in
like deep detail. Is this thing that's like very easy
to like verbally romanticize.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
As somebody that like kind of understands trauma, like understands
like kay, like life does not work out the.
Speaker 6 (21:23):
Way you think right right and traumatically, so like you
had a traumatic upbringing, but we're aware of it.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
You didn't want to be there, you were looking for
a way. You understood that your mom was in a
hard spot. And you also talk about your family favorably no,
which is cool right yeah. Yeah, to add on to that,
like if you have done the work, the work in
like quotations, you know, where you can look back at
(21:54):
your life and say, well, this happened, this happened. Have
I thought through this? Have I given real consideration? And
have I realized how this affected me? And was I
part of the blim or was I not?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Was it totally total?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
That stuff?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
If you can kind of get through all that and
that you know that doesn't have to take years. Yea,
And like you through that and realize that obviously, like
you know, the way that you grew up is going
to affect how you see this world Like that is obvious, right.
I don't want my identity to be the traumatic past,
you know. I want my identity to be what I
(22:34):
want for my future and like and who I am
this moment?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, I mean, because it's really crazy now, Jimmy. When
I was a kid, I just remember feeling very uncomfortable
all the time, you know, and like and like my
mom like again, like God blessed her, Like she's just
so she's a really hurt person. She's really hurting all
the time. And I don't like blame her anymore. You know.
It's like it's like it's like a I think you know,
(23:00):
like like like a part of the Mormon doctrine is
to have as many kids as possible because like because
like the idea is that you're supposed to populate your
planet in the afterlife.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It's so relevant to what's happening right now in the
world where like, yeah, okay, so you've got you've got
these people that believe in something I have good for you.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Whatever you believe in, that's your thing. You believe in
whatever God it may be. That's fine. I'm not going
to object.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But when when you kind of like die to yourself
whatever you want to call it, and serve this greater
power that you have no guarantee whatsoever any of these
riches in heaven, any of these versions that you may
have if you're a.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Like you know, and also by the way, like what
kind of like you know, what kind of a thing.
Is that the import but anyway, but you know, so basically,
you know, if you dedicate yourself to that. I can't
remember who said it, but like a life not questioned,
there's a life not for living or something like that.
It's very very convenient to latch onto an ideology, yeah
(24:14):
and say this is the way it is. Yeah, and
like because that's simple, right, and that's and like, look,
I did that before I was born again believer, and
I you know, I did the whole thing, and like
now I've kind of gotten older, like even with what
you're saying, like just kind of looking back at stuff,
I'm like, man, I needed that at that point, and
that's why I've never taken away from anyone. But it
(24:36):
is just kind of it's just interesting to me because
the world gets so fucked up so quickly when so
many people believe the same thing. If somebody is able
to convince enough people of one thing, the ripple effect
of that can be unthinkable.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
So why do we not question what we believe?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Why do we not put more time and thought into
who we are where we can him from totally?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
What's important?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I think family is probably like the the most valuable
thing and that doesn't mean my blood.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
You know, people like like you know.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Like people you can call and say, hey, like, yeah,
I do I have to pay these punts?
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah? You know, I like I don't. Suis honest and
like like not even like even not even to like
be like like be embarrassed, right But it's like people
are just like I'm just being myself right now. I'm
just like this is like you know, these are these
are people who I just like trust like with like
every yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, yeah, you know like when you know, yeah do
you have when you have that like that, it's the
the the the love on the support and the of
that really sets you up for a good day.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, you know, for a good day. And that's really
kind of all you need, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
It's like, yeah, you wake up about.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You wake up in the morning, just text your buddy
and it's just like hey, like that's what like that's
what like that's what trace is to me, And it's
what like that's what like, you know, my sisters are
to me, and it's like a lot of like my
really really close friends here in New York are to me.
It's like it's kind of when I realized like New
York is like my home.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Beyond that,
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