September 19, 2023 • 39 mins
From Taika’s perspective on authority, his creative nature, his family, Hollywood, and much more, this episode of The Unimaginable is about Taika Waititi’s unimaginable life. Join your host Jimmy Brown as they figure it out.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Beyond imaginable?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What success, what's important? What has value? What matters? Will
ninety nine percent of all the art in all the
world be forgotten in time? This episode sounds like two
friends discussing what they think it's all about. Get involved
(00:24):
with the actor, drawer, painter, sculptor, writer, director, and Oscar
Award winner taykawy Td like never before. From Tiger's backstory,
his perspective on authority, his creative nature, his family, Hollywood,
(00:45):
the writers strike, and so much more. This episode definitely
go somewhere. I'm your host, James Brown, and you're listening
to the Unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Tiger. I was born in New Zealand in nineteen seventy five,
on August the sixteenth. My mother's family they are what
we call Pakia, which is white Russian Jews who escaped
the pogroms in early nineteen hundreds and ended up in
different countries, and eventually, of all places as far away
from Russia and from Europe as you could get, ended
(01:22):
up in New Zealand. Cut to a generation or two later,
my mother was born and she ended up meeting my dad,
who was essentially a farmer from a small, little farming
fishing village out in the country in New Zealand. She
was a school teacher and they met and hit it
(01:43):
off and fell in love, and in nineteen seventy five
I was born. I had the benefit of having two
parents who, like my mother, was a school teacher who
was into literature, and all she cared about was that
I read books and that I could write. And my
father was not a farmer, but he was a renaissance
man whose main thing was calving and sculpting and painting,
(02:07):
and so he couldn't have cared less. Both of them,
neither of them could have cared less if I wanted
to pursue medicine or law. That wasn't their thing at all,
And all they wanted was to make sure that I
was into it. So I was really lucky in that respect.
And now I had some parents who loved art and
(02:28):
wanted their son to love it too. From a very
early age, I knew that's what I wanted to do.
I wanted to be involved somehow in art. And then
eventually I realized all the different things I was interested
in culminated to under this umbrella of storytelling. And so
that's really where I guess to pour my focus and
(02:49):
the idea of telling stories. And at school, I was
always into just entertaining people, making people laugh, and I
love the attention that came with that, and I also
just loved telling stories. I'd spent a lot of time
with my friends or even by myself. I spent a
lot of time by myself. I wouldn't say I was
a loner. Had a lot of friends. I was super
popular Jimmy, as you can well imagine. But I also
(03:10):
very much enjoyed the company of myself because I thought,
if other people love my company, god damn it, I
must be cool. And so I enjoyed my company as well.
There must spend many an afternoon hanging out my bedroom
recording stories on an old tape deck, doing all the
characters and making all the foley sounds and stuff, just
(03:32):
by myself, all these big adventures based on like Indiana
Jones and Star Wars and things like that, and just
recorded all these stories these little radio players. And then
I would like write stories, and I'd draw pictures and
I'd paint pictures. So it's sort of like my bedroom
was like a studio. From a very young age when
dungeons and Dragons first came out, I didn't realize you
(03:53):
needed to have friends to play it, and I was
very happy that Christmas just playing Dungeons and Dragons by
myself in my bedroom. I loved it. That was long
after that when someone said, no, the whole point of
the game is to play with other people, and I
still don't see the point of that. Then, throughout school,
you know, I was very much into sport, so I
(04:14):
was like a cool, good looking nerd who was good
at everything. Can you imagine, I mean, it's almost impossible
to imagine. It's like I just had it all and
then eventually I went to university, can be more popular,
even more cool. It's just I'd love to say that
(04:35):
there were some downs, but it's mainly been up. It's
mainly been just from one one up to another up,
and it's just and it hasn't stopped. I don't know.
You know a lot of people want to hear some
tragedy in stories or some conflict, but it's just been
just absolute joy ride of success after success and just
(04:57):
happiness and not a single tear drop.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Man, that is incredible, Like, what a what a testament
to to.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You've seen me I mean what drew you to me
was just the absolute positivity, positivity and just the air
of the absolute winner.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah. Actually, you know, you know that's that's actually right,
because I've always kind of seen you as this extremely
aware person of everything. You know, It's like you just
kind of like pick it all up and you know
what to do with it. You kind of are able
to sue people quickly, and like you figure out what
decisions you want to make work wise, and you're always
(05:34):
got so many different things going on that it takes
kind of something like that to have all that going
on at once.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
And yeah, I feel like there's something happened to me
when I was very young, and that I won't go
too much into it, but I made the decision when
I was about living that you cannot and must not
rely on grown ups to help you, and that you're
basically in the world alone and going to dialone and
(06:01):
you just have to make it all for yourself. And
was it what age were about? Eleven?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Eleven? Okay?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And so from then, man, that's a good that's a
good choice. Was that for That's a great choice for
an eleven year old, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, Well, you know, I really like, like you know,
betrayed and so like you know, and I was like,
and I basically just never forgive people in the positions
of responsibility whenever I have to deal with anyone who's
like a boss or like who is like in charge.
(06:34):
You know, I don't I'm not like I don't go
out of my way to to fuck the moment, but like,
you know, I really do challenge them, and I don't
I take whatever they say with a pinch of salt,
and I sort of here's the thing is, like you know,
like I know, I've got a lot of faults and
weaknesses and things like that, but you know, and everyone does.
I like, some of us just choose to you know,
(06:57):
some of us have the decency to hide them, right
you know, Like I'm sure I've got anxiety, but I
don't go on about it like everyone else in America.
So like you know, I like, I'm like, bottle that
shut up, don't talk about it. That makes you weak. Yeah,
So I agree there everyone like you've got to talk
(07:18):
about your depression. Like no, that's what makes me powerful.
So I don't do everything that I do. Think you
got to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Who was the person that got you to kind of
get to that point to make that decision for yourself.
You're like, fuck people like older people.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
My parents, my parents, and people around my parents and
like this that generation. And I grew up in the eighties,
whell it. You know, you know, at like seven years old,
you know, you could buy cigarettes and beer for your parents,
you know, so like.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
You just have ever heard that poem? There's there's a
poem that's a great one that goes something along the
lines of they fuck you up your mom and dad.
They don't mean to, but they do.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, Yeah, I love that. I know that. I know
it farm and I haven't heard yeah that someone making
it from and it's brilliant and it's true. They don't
mean to, but they never fucking like trust. And they're
trying and they're trying not to. They trying not to do
And I can see I'm doing a little bit with
my kids as well, like every now and every like
(08:18):
sort of time, I like I don't keep it promise
or like you know, or like I'm fucking like I
do something that I can just see them go. Yeah,
you're very fallable.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
All people are kids that you can't trust.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Basically, that's it. That's it. Trust yourself. I do feel like,
you know, like there's sort of an air of confidence
that I've tried to like, yeah, I trust, I trust
my own taste, of my own opinion and things like
that to a point, you know, And I know when
i'm I know when I'm like, yeah, this is disastrous,
(08:55):
but what a fun place to be. And if I'm
going to if I'm going to go down, and if
I'm going to crash, at least, you know, it's that
I'm trying to do something that I find, I think
it's going to be interesting. And I just feel like
it's you're just better or have to trust your own
instincts because you can't. If you trust yourself and you fail,
you can't blame anyone else. And that's the best way
(09:17):
I think.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I think. To add to that point, like I think
if you really do trust yourself, you actually become a
unique artist or creator because you've trusted yourself, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And it's like, well, people mistake there for arrogance, and
it's just like, listen, why would I trust someone else
who isn't me and has not got my life experiences
and doesn't see the world through my eye.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And they're not. You have to trust yourself and they're.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Not liable, and they're not liable, and exactly, and especially
with the film industry, you know they don't. They don't
have the weight of a studio budget on their shoulders, right,
you do. So it's up to you. It's your responsibility
to basically to put yourself on the line in such
a way where it's like if you fail, the you
(10:00):
know you fail, rather than you can't be at the
premiere and go, ah, I know the films sucked, but
look because he told me not to do something, It's
like you can't point fingers. It's like, that's what I
think is great. It's like if you just stick to
your to your vision of what you're trying to do,
then it's just more pure. The failure is more pure
(10:20):
and the success is more pure.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well, I think I learned that first time with you
when I sent you audition, my audition to be in
your parent TV show, and everyone was like a good right.
It was like, I'm not taking any advice from anyone.
I'm just going to guide.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
I'll just say this right now. I was not calling
the shop.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I'm calling you, right now.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Beyond imaginable, beyond imaginable. But you know, like we're not
going to talk about any kind of promotion for anything
that I've got coming up. Well, we'll talk about these
strikes and of people want the structs to be over it,
and I do as well, because I would like to
do something, you know, some work. But I've been and
(11:06):
I know I'm not. It's not a nice thing to
say because the people are unemployed and I'm unemployed, but man,
I've been enjoying it. I've been enjoying just taking a
break and like just spend time with my family. And
it's like a nice certain version of COVID where it's
like you can actually hang out with people and not die.
And you know this this version, you're like, oh, I
(11:27):
can just hang out with people and not work and
it's great.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You know what, I keep thinking about the strike. I
think I think what the striker should do. I think
they should have done this month ago, Like if I
was a striker, but you know, I'm a bit of
a ruffian maybe like yourself, but I would have went
and just kind of carved this thing on his bonnet
of his car. You know, it was probably the Tesla
and said fucking pay me more, bitch, you know, and
(11:52):
like you know, then the news can put that on
the thing, and it's like everyone's like.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
We just take the take the car to take the
car and leave the bottom.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Just like I feel like somebody needs to buy some
hairs together or do something here for this to kind
of get to the end.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
But it's also going to be more interesting, you know
when they're talking like crossing the picket line, it's like
like nothing like the old days, you know, the good
old days that they were they made. No one's going
to make a movie, you know, these stripes.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Right because you know, well there's no there's not much drama.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
We hope, we hope they're effective, but they're like they're pretty.
They're they're pretty, but they're pretty. Take. Yeah, there's no fighting.
There's no one like actually getting in like you know,
a fist fight, and there's no blood being spilt over
this stuff. Kind of a strike real.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
I want to see me too. Maybe we should go
and start busting some heads.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, whenever someone drives into the lock.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Just I got a new truck. We can just burst
straight through the gids and be like, hey, I'm not
even a writer, but I'll do it. Uh but yeah,
I think I do think that that whole thing is
is it's dragging arm and it's been going on for
a while.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But there's different levels, you know, of the people who
you know, there are the writers who actually really do
need to be paid. I'm in the kind of I'm
in that cushy little section of writers who who can
work and like you know, do get paid and it's
not about us, you know, so like, you know, there's
a lot of Yeah, there's a section of writers who
are like, what's the big deal you who don't understand
(13:29):
there are people who are starving and who need money
and it's like chosen this job because they love it,
and staff writers or these people they don't get paid enough.
It's you know, they've got terrible terms, and it's just
it just needs to be fair. And you know, I
f like, you know, instead of like I wouldn't be
the like pay me more because it's you know, be
(13:50):
hypocritical and be more like can you just give me
a bigger deadlines? It's my demand.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I don't want to write.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I want to write it. Stop making me write. That's
my ticket, it's my player.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
So I guess, well, while the strike's going on, you know,
you've been like, you know, branching out a little bit.
I saw this new thing called tiker and ir one
to drink coffee drink.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Right, Hey, listen, I'm allowed to promote my i't think.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I don't think it's on the cyclist, you know. I
think coffee and goodness and wildness and food and beveragees.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Listen, man, every other massive celebrity who is a multi
multi multi millionaires promoting their vodkas and tequilas. So I'm
sure it's okay for me to my tiny little cans
of coffee, just bloody good coffee. Though. Guys, guys, I
want to I want to know my quarter ships, but
(14:52):
not the bad ones from last of us. But good
have you seen that?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Have you seen that new like you where you can
scan the barcode of any product and as you like,
the whole breakdown of if it's good for you or not.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Oh I didn't. I haven't seen that, But that's exactly
what we need trying to decipher their craft on the
back of those tiny little panels. And also, you know,
isn't that the thing with who is it? That decides
what you can put on ingredients for the public or not.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Is it if.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I t and so like? But isn't it true right?
You're not that you don't have to say what's really
in the product in terms of like how much sugar
or how much of this, or like the actual levels.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Like Watson vaccines. So should I should? Should?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I'm not going down like that.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, But like you know, I think, I think, what's
it like? You know, I mean you have a new family.
I mean you have your old family and you have
a new wife. I've seen you guys just traveling around
filming stuff, doing new stuff. It feels like you're doing
new stuff, like outside of what you've normally done.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Well, I'm actually going back to my old stuff. So
I didn't start making films. I was about thirty before that.
All I did was theater, paint pictures and draw and
do music and like make stuff and workshops and like
I was a bit more and like you know, I'm
like so clothes and stuff, and I was like a
little bit more kind of just arts and crafty kind
(16:19):
of guy. And you know, I wasn't into writing at all.
I'm still not that into writing, but I feel like, yeah,
I'm not going to retireing film, but I'm definitely putting
a lot of it into the secondary priority part of
my life. So now I just want to go back to,
(16:40):
you know, just having my studio and just working and
just making stuff and hanging out with my other artist
friends and just making fun things and being a little
bit more more crafty.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Film film, and but yeah, look it's a very collaborative medium.
But you've yeah, you've always got people around. But as
a result, ironically, that's what makes film one of the
lonelier jobs. I feel way lonelier when I'm making film,
or like working working in Hollywood because there's too many people,
(17:15):
because I don't like most of the people I work with,
and that makes me lonely because I'm like, I'm not
even working with my friends, and I don't like, you know,
like Hollywood itself is very you from I come from
New Zealand, and our bullshit media is very sensitive. But
when people talk to us, it's like I can just
feeld my body tense up when I hear like, you know,
(17:37):
agents and people like that. Agents have the word studio,
people talking to you and You're like, I'm forty seven.
Why are you talking to me like I'm some ignorant
twelve year old. You know that you can like trick
like I can see right through you, but they still.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Do it so amazing. Role, you know, I like, I
love to change my life.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I'm a big fan, huge fan. I'm a big fan.
I just wanted to reach out a big fan. Okay,
how much of my stuff will be saying if you're
such a big fan. The last movie you.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Made, yeah, they can't even name.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It exactly, Wilding, Wilding people so good.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I got the impression from the last time we hung.
I think you maybe that day had done some kind
of interview about diversity, and I watched that after and
I was like, and then from that night we were
hung and I was like, I feel like you've kind
of hit a new place.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Which made a new level of cynicism or something like that.
You know it's called it's it's called getting older. Honestly,
I'm like, I speak so positive and now I'm like,
my biggest fear is coming true. And then I'm just
becoming my father, becoming the person I've been running away
from my entire life, and I'm becoming this grumpy guy
(18:58):
who just doesn't give a fuck about anyone except himself
and his family, and it's got no time for bullshit,
and doesn't want to meet anyone you, doesn't want to
hang out, doesn't want to socialize. Yeah, I've been I
want to stand. Told me the same, wanted to talk.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
She was like, the other day we were driving home
from the Hampton, she goes, he goes, You realize You're
tolerance level for anyone has dipped so secret increasingly over
the last couple of weeks. I was like, yeah, well,
nobody has anything to say, and like they're all just
completely just send whatever persona they've made up about themselves,
and I'm just like I can't even entertain it anymore.
I just don't care. It's like a pantomime, you.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Know, it is, totally, and it's just like I feel
like it's it's like a Treatman show.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
It's just a series of bad sketches, bad skits, one
after the other, and you know, it's like how your
day unfolds in front of you, and it's just whether
or not you want to watch this sketch or turn
your back on it. And now usually I'm just spinning
my back.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, it's just like you just counceled that subscription.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
You know, we like these two old guys from the Muppets.
We just we're just.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Like instigarettes in the back, just talking ship, judging movies
we have not not true, but I definitely have done
a lot of time with you, where like we've just
talked about a bunch of stuff. And like I think
(20:27):
one of the things, like even with doing some research
about your movie is because I haven't seen them all,
but I've seen a few of them, but I've just
gotten to know you as a friend of like he's
a person. I hate that whole thing in Hollywood where
you get to know somebody and then you've become a fan.
I really like protecting the relationship or the friendship for real, honestly,
because if I don't like one of the movies, and
what am I going to do? You know, but I'm
(20:51):
sure I will can read this guy, but I'm interested.
Like the reason I'm asking this is because the three
month bender on Nothing matters. Talk to every single person
I could find anyone, like at the grocery store or whatever.
I was bringing up black conversation and I was hell
bent on figuring it out, and then I was like, no,
this is actually kind of a sad perspective because nothing matters, right.
(21:14):
So then I was like, well, I'm just sad, okay,
so now I need to not get sad. So I
started picking this concept apart my own life, and I
was like categorizing things like friends, family, you know, this
opportunity or whatever, and I was like, which one of
these actually is important? And then I always got hit
back with the whole thought of well, you know, we're
in this massive universe and we're like the size of
(21:36):
you know, a millionth of a grain of salt or
whatever it maybe, but it's something like that, right, So
it makes you feel extremely small and significant. But at
the same time, I'm like, well, I don't actually feel
that way, and I know a lot of people don't
feel that way because we have love, right. I think
love kind of breaks through a lot of that, and
I think we have emotional intelligence, which I also think
is under that umbrella. I was curious to hear where
(21:57):
you're at, because like, I know that you know, things
are changing for everyone, and I don't know if that
doesn't it at all, but just curious to get your
chick on it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I used to keep myself in
check a little bit around this, Like it's fun to
be grumpy and cynical, you know, just because it's just
like you can, it's just another character. But I'm not
really like that, you know, Like I'm very I love
the world and I love you know, I love a garden.
I love like going out in the garden that we've
got in the back of the house here in London
(22:24):
and just being in the garden now and then the
fox will come out and like just creep around the
trees and stuff, which is amazing and I'm like, oh man,
it's a fucking fox. And like, you know, I just
kind of you know, soon back and or the wonder
of the universe and the world and creation and you know,
I'm deeply I'm a real atheist. But now I'm like,
(22:49):
maybe there is a good you know, all these things
that happened to you. There's big changes that happened to you,
and like, you know, I can also put it down
to that whole like you know, the eight year cycle
that will go through in the same cycle, and yeah,
that's like I'm entering this new phase now where I
am starting to see things a lot differently, and I
(23:10):
still think that nothing matters, but I do think that
it's like there's a balance thing there, and it's yeah, yeah,
totally nothing matters. Nothing matters, But that doesn't mean that
you don't. Man, Yeah, you know, like I've always been
I've always believed that it's like I.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Was thinking about it last night, like where you know,
when you actually just break down what matter is, right,
I guess it's likes or something, right, But if there's
there's a there's a substance, so there's some kind of
thing that can be measured, and so when you think
about nothing matters, I was like, let me get down
to the basics of this, right. I was like, well,
if you feel something, then there's matter, right. You know,
(23:47):
if you love somebody, there's matter. If there's like a
reason to protect something, there's matter.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
There's something there that's tangible that you can talk about
and feel or maybe even see some I through some
crazy camera that somebody's development. But I do think I've
kind of like gotten to that new place, and I
think it's a relate to what you're saying, because I
think it comes with you know, not that I've had
the same level of success as making movies and all that,
(24:12):
but just kind of going through life sphereses and I'm
being aware of how things change and how people change,
and how like basically life is wild, and if you
can't go with it and accept the fact that it's
not going to be predictable, it's really difficult to kind
of get out of outside of that nothing matters mentality,
which I've been really working on because.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, but I love that idea that you know, like
there are things that matter, and those are things that
usually the things that matter are tangible, things that you
can hold, things that you can touch. You know, you
know a lot of things like ideas and success, those
are notions, and you know they don't matter in the
sense that it's just thought and its ego and that
(24:58):
isn't real matter. It's just things that you can pass through.
So when you think of like, okay, things that don't matter,
you know, it's more like you've got to choose what
doesn't matter, and what doesn't matter. What doesn't matter is
someone hurting your feelings. What doesn't matter is like the
future or the past, because it's not real, it's not tangible,
and you can pass through anything that isn't real matter.
(25:19):
You can just walk through it, you know, and you
let it pass through you. But the things that really
for me, that really matter is this garden and that fox,
and my kids and my food. You need that, you know,
These are all things I can touch and hold and like,
you know and feel that. Everything else, every other thing
(25:42):
is just a concept, and it's an idea that is
just not real until you even the idea of like
like even coming up with a story, thinking a story,
it's still not real. It doesn't matter. This fucking story
he does a ship, so like, you know, it's just spitting, like,
what's your priorities and listen when we're none of it's
going to be remembered in fifty years, so that doesn't matter.
(26:05):
It's like, have a good time. Stop chasing this idea
of immortality through like success, and I want to be
remembered from my art and stuff, because this shit, No
one remembers ninety nine point no no, no, nine percent
of artists who ever existed. There's only about thirty that
you know in books, and the rest are being forgotten
in time and they don't matter. And that's cool. That's fine.
(26:27):
They just did their thing that made them happy and passionate,
and they were into their art and then they were forgotten,
and that should be the way it is. But you
know you and I don't care if I'm forgotten.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
You remind me of these or like all the Irish storytellers,
like the shana kay you know what these are, these
kind of like traveling dudes that would just like turn
up in our neighborhood and they would be like, you know,
kind of like flying their freak flag a little bit.
But you know, it was just so accepted. It was
never questioned. It was just a thing that happened. And
(26:58):
so all the kids would gather the shark okay and
he would tell a story or she would tell a story,
and the story would be whatever may be, Like it
just could be anything, right, but it was. It was
seen as a rare ocasion for us to be blessed
by a story from a shana k And I always
I just thought about that. I was like, this is
kind of like who taich it is? Because I feel
(27:19):
like you can turn up and tell a story and
do it very risky and dramatic and likely make it
like very edgy if you know what I mean, because
I feel like that's your thing, Like it's always like
taking a big risk with whatever you're doing. Well, maybe not,
I have only seen it go long, but you know,
that's what the vibe I get. But but it reminded
me of that because it was like this guy turns up,
tells a story, disappears, comes back, tells a different story.
(27:42):
Maybe he has five more different stories working on. But
I love that kind of analogy for you because it's like.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
You know, and it's like, also, this is the way
I feel more and more now that I don't want
to be going and hanging out. I don't want an
office in a studio. I don't want to it that like,
I don't want that sort of studio deal. We have
to turn up Reeah. I was way happy. I just
going back to New Zealand and they're going sitting on
the beach and thinking about a story, not all day,
(28:12):
just now and then right and then writing it wheneveryone
wanted a deadline, and then just turning up back to Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And oh but I think I think when you said
when you sit down to when you sit down to
like make art, and you have like a schedule on
a team and all that. It just already immediately takes
away like twenty five percent of the inspiration because you're
like you have to do it, you know, if you
just like really just to be in the moment and
just go for it whenever you feel like it. I
definitely feel like even if it's five minutes, it could
(28:41):
be worth five hours of work because you were just
free to do that. I do think it's something to
be said for just having that freedom and going back
to your roots, as you were saying, and like, you know,
you've done the whole Hollywood bit, you know, like that
you really have, like what else is there to do?
So it's like in the next chapter, you're with the.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Fox, and I'm like, you know what, if I I
only did film for the rest of my life, I'd
be quite disappointed in myself. Yeah, so you've just got
to remember It's like film was a checker that started
when I was thirty that I did not think I
would want to last longer than eight years. And I've
been doing it now twenty and I'm like, fuck, man,
Like I've already let myself down in that respect to
(29:24):
stay them too long. I'm like I should have moved
on to fucking ages ago, and so already I'm like,
I want to do something else now, I want to
go Like you know, it's like what am I interested in?
I want to make some furniture. I want to be
a gardener and like just do some landscape guard and
that would be fucking epic. You know.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I used to cut trees stone for a living and
it was fucking amazing because you climb all the way
up in the spikes and then you'll be at the
top and you're at the top of the tree, you
can hear everything better because Nolise travels up or something.
But literally you can hear people whispering about you, and
it's like it's the fact it's in the tree, and
they're like like he's he's that size, he's that strong enough.
(30:00):
And I'm like, you guys, like send me the fucking
but you know what, it's just like, but being in
nature and being part of it and like just not
being caught up with people and being in that tree
for two hours, like I get it. And I'm kind
of at that point myself to a certain degree, or
I'm just like kind of taking stock, you know, of
what what's what's real and what's important, what's what's really
(30:21):
kind of got value, you know for me.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Beyond imaginable, beyond imaginable.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Like you've been a creative person right your whole life
and making stuff, Like why did it take you till
thirty ish to start thinking about making film?
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I was interested in that. It was everthing that crossed
my mind. I was only interested in just doing and making,
doing pictures and sculpting and making music and acting and
doing comedy with my friends and doing theater and making
putting on plays. And I was really happy just doing
that stuff. But also it was so poor, and I
(30:59):
was like, eventually when a film came along, as like,
it seems fun, right, it seems like it's quite fun
as well, do not have to have to put makeup
on it or costumes, and I could just be in
charge and be very creative and do all the things
I always normally do, but just now it's on a
film set. And then just got more and more into
it and just started getting so comfortable in that world
(31:20):
and feeling like, oh, I can express myself really well
and really easily doing this, so that it was my thing.
And then I was like, okay, great, well I guess
I found my cool.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
About this thing will work.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And now well now now I want to cool.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Well, I have a children's book I want to pitch
to you. So it's calm. It's called on your Feedback
you can. It's called My Imaginary In My Imaginary Me.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's for like two to three year olds. But the
imaginary me is this instinct or your gut, right that
talks to you. But the kid reads it and understands
that they have a superhero inside of them, and that
superhero is their gut or their instinct. And so every
page is a scenario with a kid you know, has
to go through something like there at school and the
mom took five minutes extually to pick them ups. That
(32:07):
they're worried about it, but they talked to their imaginary
superhero and he says, you know, your mom's going to
be here, relax, you know, or whatever. So it's like,
but I think I'm kind of like into that because
I'm like, because I had a kid, and I'm like,
you know, artistically or just thinking about like creating something
like I want to do something to get these kids
on a better track than I started on.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Totally. And I think that there are those books that
bese my kids were born. I brought the books that
I grew up with that they could have them around.
They weren't interested in them. But but there are those
things which changed, you know. I don't know what they
were for my kids. Like what books are the ones
where like you read them, you know a hundred times
(32:47):
that while you're growing up, and they just speak to you.
And there was one that called Leo the Late bloom
which is a book and it was about a tiger
who was just useless, fucking waste of space, little tiger
and you know, and his parents are like, h he's
terrible at everything. And you know, I think someone says, well,
(33:08):
he's just a late bloomer and and eventually, just one
one day, it just clipped and he became better than
everyone else and everything. I wouldn't sy I related too
much to that being a late bloomer, because I was
pretty gift gifted rush from the early age, Jimmy. But
you know the idea of that book of like, oh,
you know, you you things will happen for you when
(33:31):
it's ready, you know, in your time, in your own time,
and don't rush it, and that's actually something like I'm like, yeah,
that's so true for everybody.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
But not rushing it is key.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah. Well now I'm just like saying yes to everything
because I feel like that's what he's supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, do that. Like you're somebody who can pull
it off, you know, because you just have you have
like I think you.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Have, Like I just also like I think it's like
a self preservation thing. It's like if I only do
one project and it fails, then I've got nothing else.
I alway't have lots of backups and like lots of
things on the go. And that's like a really dangerous
excuse to have because then you're like, oh, if it fails,
then you can always say we but I had too
many things to do. So it's might double edged sword.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
But you have like such a career, You've got like
an on tapped kind of creative well. I think like
where you can just dive into a conversation and go
for it with a character story or whatever, and dive
into another totally different one and completely crush it. Because
I think your brand just works that way, you know.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I think it definitely loves to just have a lot
of things on the go that it can draw upon.
And then you get this interesting crossover between the projects
as well, where some projects that are like, you know,
the character is definitely the character from that other project
I was writing at the same time. Now that characters
and three of the projects and weird crossover between shows
and films.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Sorry, it fills up two lines in from this TV
show into this one, but it'll be fine. All of
those exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
That's exactly what happens.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
That's cool. I am interested to understand what's success? Do
you know that you're so successful?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So my idea of success changed quite a lot. You know.
At first it was like, oh, you've managed to focus
on one thing and finish it, and like that was
like great the success. Then it was like, oh, success
is like people liking you your thing, and then you're
getting you know, it's good for the ego. Then success,
you know, which is like this seems like these are
(35:34):
these stages of life. Then the success is monetary and
you're like financial success and you're like, oh, I'm validated
because people pay me a lot of money and that
must make me good at what I do, which is bullshit.
And then and that's just your quote that some someone
makes up, and so then it comes back around and
(35:55):
then you're like, fuck that, that's all bullshit and that's
not real success to just be finishing a thing and
liking it. Who cares what other people think? That's what
I think like filmmakers, and when they get older, it's
not making just weird things like they would have done
when they were like twenty, and people are like, oh
my god, why is this giant filmmaker going back to
making tiny, weird little films with no one's famous and
(36:17):
them that like, no one's going to watch. It's because
they just they know they can do the big things
and they just want to go back to like why
are they start the first place. I start feeling like that,
you know, you've got to kind of tap back into
that because otherwise it's just very easy to lose yourself.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, oh my god, and anything you know in.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
This tially in this industry. Yeah, because there's so many
voices telling you you're great, and then you realize, ah,
I don't know any of these people. And I only
trusted my friends for a reason because you know, I
could believe them, and my friends would say that was ship, right,
but now you shy away from that. You only want
to hear the positive.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yeah, well, yeah, totally. I mean that's Hollywood through and through.
And as you do have friends, which is great. I
watched Rick Rubin's Instagram a lot because he always has
these great quotes and you know, he's basically the message
is kind of under the same umbrella, which is, you know,
don't compare yourself, don't collaborate unless you want to collaborate,
(37:19):
don't do anything that you don't know how to do,
and just do the best thing that you know and
love it. And like, if you're really excited about it
and love it, then that is it. And the only
reason that you've gotten to where you're at is because
you've done that, and if you haven't been doing that,
wherever you're at will be a representation of that, which
is probably like not a great place to be. But
I feel like everything you've done and even what you're
(37:40):
saying right now, it's just like, you know, I've always
done what I want to do. I've always enjoyed doing it,
and I love working on lots of different projects. You know,
it's nearly even coming back to your first movie where
you got Oscar nominated for it. Right, but it was
like the first thing you did. Yeah, like in your career,
you're you've stayed very true to who you are, or
even though it's a big budget movies. But no matter
(38:02):
if it's big budget or not, I still think it's
it's like it's just so obviously your energy and your
ability and like your vision take all that on and
dream big and see all the characters and believe in
it all and like the amount of projects you do,
and I think, I think it's really merble cool. So
I don't think of unless it was like four am.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
That's four I am talks. What were we talking about?
I know I felt good?
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, like I was.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I was right.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I was writing like some ideas of like what we
could talk about. And one of one of the things
that it was, you know, I don't always remember all
of the chats, but I always come away from them
thinking that we talked about something good and I was
like energized.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
I always come away super energized.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah something you know.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, I'm like, oh man, we're gonna make this thing happen.
And I'm like, what was that. I think we were
getting in to politics. I think we started a political
party last night Beonimaginable
Beyond imaginable?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What success, what's important? What has value? What matters? Will
ninety nine percent of all the art in all the
world be forgotten in time? This episode sounds like two
friends discussing what they think it's all about. Get involved
(00:24):
with the actor, drawer, painter, sculptor, writer, director, and Oscar
Award winner taykawy Td like never before. From Tiger's backstory,
his perspective on authority, his creative nature, his family, Hollywood,
(00:45):
the writers strike, and so much more. This episode definitely
go somewhere. I'm your host, James Brown, and you're listening
to the Unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Tiger. I was born in New Zealand in nineteen seventy five,
on August the sixteenth. My mother's family they are what
we call Pakia, which is white Russian Jews who escaped
the pogroms in early nineteen hundreds and ended up in
different countries, and eventually, of all places as far away
from Russia and from Europe as you could get, ended
(01:22):
up in New Zealand. Cut to a generation or two later,
my mother was born and she ended up meeting my dad,
who was essentially a farmer from a small, little farming
fishing village out in the country in New Zealand. She
was a school teacher and they met and hit it
(01:43):
off and fell in love, and in nineteen seventy five
I was born. I had the benefit of having two
parents who, like my mother, was a school teacher who
was into literature, and all she cared about was that
I read books and that I could write. And my
father was not a farmer, but he was a renaissance
man whose main thing was calving and sculpting and painting,
(02:07):
and so he couldn't have cared less. Both of them,
neither of them could have cared less if I wanted
to pursue medicine or law. That wasn't their thing at all,
And all they wanted was to make sure that I
was into it. So I was really lucky in that respect.
And now I had some parents who loved art and
(02:28):
wanted their son to love it too. From a very
early age, I knew that's what I wanted to do.
I wanted to be involved somehow in art. And then
eventually I realized all the different things I was interested
in culminated to under this umbrella of storytelling. And so
that's really where I guess to pour my focus and
(02:49):
the idea of telling stories. And at school, I was
always into just entertaining people, making people laugh, and I
love the attention that came with that, and I also
just loved telling stories. I'd spent a lot of time
with my friends or even by myself. I spent a
lot of time by myself. I wouldn't say I was
a loner. Had a lot of friends. I was super
popular Jimmy, as you can well imagine. But I also
(03:10):
very much enjoyed the company of myself because I thought,
if other people love my company, god damn it, I
must be cool. And so I enjoyed my company as well.
There must spend many an afternoon hanging out my bedroom
recording stories on an old tape deck, doing all the
characters and making all the foley sounds and stuff, just
(03:32):
by myself, all these big adventures based on like Indiana
Jones and Star Wars and things like that, and just
recorded all these stories these little radio players. And then
I would like write stories, and I'd draw pictures and
I'd paint pictures. So it's sort of like my bedroom
was like a studio. From a very young age when
dungeons and Dragons first came out, I didn't realize you
(03:53):
needed to have friends to play it, and I was
very happy that Christmas just playing Dungeons and Dragons by
myself in my bedroom. I loved it. That was long
after that when someone said, no, the whole point of
the game is to play with other people, and I
still don't see the point of that. Then, throughout school,
you know, I was very much into sport, so I
(04:14):
was like a cool, good looking nerd who was good
at everything. Can you imagine, I mean, it's almost impossible
to imagine. It's like I just had it all and
then eventually I went to university, can be more popular,
even more cool. It's just I'd love to say that
(04:35):
there were some downs, but it's mainly been up. It's
mainly been just from one one up to another up,
and it's just and it hasn't stopped. I don't know.
You know a lot of people want to hear some
tragedy in stories or some conflict, but it's just been
just absolute joy ride of success after success and just
(04:57):
happiness and not a single tear drop.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Man, that is incredible, Like, what a what a testament
to to.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You've seen me I mean what drew you to me
was just the absolute positivity, positivity and just the air
of the absolute winner.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah. Actually, you know, you know that's that's actually right,
because I've always kind of seen you as this extremely
aware person of everything. You know, It's like you just
kind of like pick it all up and you know
what to do with it. You kind of are able
to sue people quickly, and like you figure out what
decisions you want to make work wise, and you're always
(05:34):
got so many different things going on that it takes
kind of something like that to have all that going
on at once.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
And yeah, I feel like there's something happened to me
when I was very young, and that I won't go
too much into it, but I made the decision when
I was about living that you cannot and must not
rely on grown ups to help you, and that you're
basically in the world alone and going to dialone and
(06:01):
you just have to make it all for yourself. And
was it what age were about? Eleven?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Eleven? Okay?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And so from then, man, that's a good that's a
good choice. Was that for That's a great choice for
an eleven year old, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, Well, you know, I really like, like you know,
betrayed and so like you know, and I was like,
and I basically just never forgive people in the positions
of responsibility whenever I have to deal with anyone who's
like a boss or like who is like in charge.
(06:34):
You know, I don't I'm not like I don't go
out of my way to to fuck the moment, but like,
you know, I really do challenge them, and I don't
I take whatever they say with a pinch of salt,
and I sort of here's the thing is, like you know,
like I know, I've got a lot of faults and
weaknesses and things like that, but you know, and everyone does.
I like, some of us just choose to you know,
(06:57):
some of us have the decency to hide them, right
you know, Like I'm sure I've got anxiety, but I
don't go on about it like everyone else in America.
So like you know, I like, I'm like, bottle that
shut up, don't talk about it. That makes you weak. Yeah,
So I agree there everyone like you've got to talk
(07:18):
about your depression. Like no, that's what makes me powerful.
So I don't do everything that I do. Think you
got to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Who was the person that got you to kind of
get to that point to make that decision for yourself.
You're like, fuck people like older people.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
My parents, my parents, and people around my parents and
like this that generation. And I grew up in the eighties,
whell it. You know, you know, at like seven years old,
you know, you could buy cigarettes and beer for your parents,
you know, so like.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
You just have ever heard that poem? There's there's a
poem that's a great one that goes something along the
lines of they fuck you up your mom and dad.
They don't mean to, but they do.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, Yeah, I love that. I know that. I know
it farm and I haven't heard yeah that someone making
it from and it's brilliant and it's true. They don't
mean to, but they never fucking like trust. And they're
trying and they're trying not to. They trying not to do
And I can see I'm doing a little bit with
my kids as well, like every now and every like
(08:18):
sort of time, I like I don't keep it promise
or like you know, or like I'm fucking like I
do something that I can just see them go. Yeah,
you're very fallable.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
All people are kids that you can't trust.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Basically, that's it. That's it. Trust yourself. I do feel like,
you know, like there's sort of an air of confidence
that I've tried to like, yeah, I trust, I trust
my own taste, of my own opinion and things like
that to a point, you know, And I know when
i'm I know when I'm like, yeah, this is disastrous,
(08:55):
but what a fun place to be. And if I'm
going to if I'm going to go down, and if
I'm going to crash, at least, you know, it's that
I'm trying to do something that I find, I think
it's going to be interesting. And I just feel like
it's you're just better or have to trust your own
instincts because you can't. If you trust yourself and you fail,
you can't blame anyone else. And that's the best way
(09:17):
I think.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I think. To add to that point, like I think
if you really do trust yourself, you actually become a
unique artist or creator because you've trusted yourself, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And it's like, well, people mistake there for arrogance, and
it's just like, listen, why would I trust someone else
who isn't me and has not got my life experiences
and doesn't see the world through my eye.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And they're not. You have to trust yourself and they're.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Not liable, and they're not liable, and exactly, and especially
with the film industry, you know they don't. They don't
have the weight of a studio budget on their shoulders, right,
you do. So it's up to you. It's your responsibility
to basically to put yourself on the line in such
a way where it's like if you fail, the you
(10:00):
know you fail, rather than you can't be at the
premiere and go, ah, I know the films sucked, but
look because he told me not to do something, It's
like you can't point fingers. It's like, that's what I
think is great. It's like if you just stick to
your to your vision of what you're trying to do,
then it's just more pure. The failure is more pure
(10:20):
and the success is more pure.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well, I think I learned that first time with you
when I sent you audition, my audition to be in
your parent TV show, and everyone was like a good right.
It was like, I'm not taking any advice from anyone.
I'm just going to guide.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
I'll just say this right now. I was not calling
the shop.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I'm calling you, right now.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Beyond imaginable, beyond imaginable. But you know, like we're not
going to talk about any kind of promotion for anything
that I've got coming up. Well, we'll talk about these
strikes and of people want the structs to be over it,
and I do as well, because I would like to
do something, you know, some work. But I've been and
(11:06):
I know I'm not. It's not a nice thing to
say because the people are unemployed and I'm unemployed, but man,
I've been enjoying it. I've been enjoying just taking a
break and like just spend time with my family. And
it's like a nice certain version of COVID where it's
like you can actually hang out with people and not die.
And you know this this version, you're like, oh, I
(11:27):
can just hang out with people and not work and
it's great.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You know what, I keep thinking about the strike. I
think I think what the striker should do. I think
they should have done this month ago, Like if I
was a striker, but you know, I'm a bit of
a ruffian maybe like yourself, but I would have went
and just kind of carved this thing on his bonnet
of his car. You know, it was probably the Tesla
and said fucking pay me more, bitch, you know, and
(11:52):
like you know, then the news can put that on
the thing, and it's like everyone's like.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
We just take the take the car to take the
car and leave the bottom.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Just like I feel like somebody needs to buy some
hairs together or do something here for this to kind
of get to the end.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
But it's also going to be more interesting, you know
when they're talking like crossing the picket line, it's like
like nothing like the old days, you know, the good
old days that they were they made. No one's going
to make a movie, you know, these stripes.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Right because you know, well there's no there's not much drama.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
We hope, we hope they're effective, but they're like they're pretty.
They're they're pretty, but they're pretty. Take. Yeah, there's no fighting.
There's no one like actually getting in like you know,
a fist fight, and there's no blood being spilt over
this stuff. Kind of a strike real.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
I want to see me too. Maybe we should go
and start busting some heads.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, whenever someone drives into the lock.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Just I got a new truck. We can just burst
straight through the gids and be like, hey, I'm not
even a writer, but I'll do it. Uh but yeah,
I think I do think that that whole thing is
is it's dragging arm and it's been going on for
a while.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But there's different levels, you know, of the people who
you know, there are the writers who actually really do
need to be paid. I'm in the kind of I'm
in that cushy little section of writers who who can
work and like you know, do get paid and it's
not about us, you know, so like, you know, there's
a lot of Yeah, there's a section of writers who
are like, what's the big deal you who don't understand
(13:29):
there are people who are starving and who need money
and it's like chosen this job because they love it,
and staff writers or these people they don't get paid enough.
It's you know, they've got terrible terms, and it's just
it just needs to be fair. And you know, I
f like, you know, instead of like I wouldn't be
the like pay me more because it's you know, be
(13:50):
hypocritical and be more like can you just give me
a bigger deadlines? It's my demand.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I don't want to write.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I want to write it. Stop making me write. That's
my ticket, it's my player.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
So I guess, well, while the strike's going on, you know,
you've been like, you know, branching out a little bit.
I saw this new thing called tiker and ir one
to drink coffee drink.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Right, Hey, listen, I'm allowed to promote my i't think.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I don't think it's on the cyclist, you know. I
think coffee and goodness and wildness and food and beveragees.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Listen, man, every other massive celebrity who is a multi
multi multi millionaires promoting their vodkas and tequilas. So I'm
sure it's okay for me to my tiny little cans
of coffee, just bloody good coffee. Though. Guys, guys, I
want to I want to know my quarter ships, but
(14:52):
not the bad ones from last of us. But good
have you seen that?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Have you seen that new like you where you can
scan the barcode of any product and as you like,
the whole breakdown of if it's good for you or not.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Oh I didn't. I haven't seen that, But that's exactly
what we need trying to decipher their craft on the
back of those tiny little panels. And also, you know,
isn't that the thing with who is it? That decides
what you can put on ingredients for the public or not.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Is it if.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I t and so like? But isn't it true right?
You're not that you don't have to say what's really
in the product in terms of like how much sugar
or how much of this, or like the actual levels.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Like Watson vaccines. So should I should? Should?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I'm not going down like that.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, But like you know, I think, I think, what's
it like? You know, I mean you have a new family.
I mean you have your old family and you have
a new wife. I've seen you guys just traveling around
filming stuff, doing new stuff. It feels like you're doing
new stuff, like outside of what you've normally done.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Well, I'm actually going back to my old stuff. So
I didn't start making films. I was about thirty before that.
All I did was theater, paint pictures and draw and
do music and like make stuff and workshops and like
I was a bit more and like you know, I'm
like so clothes and stuff, and I was like a
little bit more kind of just arts and crafty kind
(16:19):
of guy. And you know, I wasn't into writing at all.
I'm still not that into writing, but I feel like, yeah,
I'm not going to retireing film, but I'm definitely putting
a lot of it into the secondary priority part of
my life. So now I just want to go back to,
(16:40):
you know, just having my studio and just working and
just making stuff and hanging out with my other artist
friends and just making fun things and being a little
bit more more crafty.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Film film, and but yeah, look it's a very collaborative medium.
But you've yeah, you've always got people around. But as
a result, ironically, that's what makes film one of the
lonelier jobs. I feel way lonelier when I'm making film,
or like working working in Hollywood because there's too many people,
(17:15):
because I don't like most of the people I work with,
and that makes me lonely because I'm like, I'm not
even working with my friends, and I don't like, you know,
like Hollywood itself is very you from I come from
New Zealand, and our bullshit media is very sensitive. But
when people talk to us, it's like I can just
feeld my body tense up when I hear like, you know,
(17:37):
agents and people like that. Agents have the word studio,
people talking to you and You're like, I'm forty seven.
Why are you talking to me like I'm some ignorant
twelve year old. You know that you can like trick
like I can see right through you, but they still.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Do it so amazing. Role, you know, I like, I
love to change my life.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I'm a big fan, huge fan. I'm a big fan.
I just wanted to reach out a big fan. Okay,
how much of my stuff will be saying if you're
such a big fan. The last movie you.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Made, yeah, they can't even name.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It exactly, Wilding, Wilding people so good.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I got the impression from the last time we hung.
I think you maybe that day had done some kind
of interview about diversity, and I watched that after and
I was like, and then from that night we were
hung and I was like, I feel like you've kind
of hit a new place.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Which made a new level of cynicism or something like that.
You know it's called it's it's called getting older. Honestly,
I'm like, I speak so positive and now I'm like,
my biggest fear is coming true. And then I'm just
becoming my father, becoming the person I've been running away
from my entire life, and I'm becoming this grumpy guy
(18:58):
who just doesn't give a fuck about anyone except himself
and his family, and it's got no time for bullshit,
and doesn't want to meet anyone you, doesn't want to
hang out, doesn't want to socialize. Yeah, I've been I
want to stand. Told me the same, wanted to talk.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
She was like, the other day we were driving home
from the Hampton, she goes, he goes, You realize You're
tolerance level for anyone has dipped so secret increasingly over
the last couple of weeks. I was like, yeah, well,
nobody has anything to say, and like they're all just
completely just send whatever persona they've made up about themselves,
and I'm just like I can't even entertain it anymore.
I just don't care. It's like a pantomime, you.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Know, it is, totally, and it's just like I feel
like it's it's like a Treatman show.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
It's just a series of bad sketches, bad skits, one
after the other, and you know, it's like how your
day unfolds in front of you, and it's just whether
or not you want to watch this sketch or turn
your back on it. And now usually I'm just spinning
my back.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, it's just like you just counceled that subscription.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
You know, we like these two old guys from the Muppets.
We just we're just.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Like instigarettes in the back, just talking ship, judging movies
we have not not true, but I definitely have done
a lot of time with you, where like we've just
talked about a bunch of stuff. And like I think
(20:27):
one of the things, like even with doing some research
about your movie is because I haven't seen them all,
but I've seen a few of them, but I've just
gotten to know you as a friend of like he's
a person. I hate that whole thing in Hollywood where
you get to know somebody and then you've become a fan.
I really like protecting the relationship or the friendship for real, honestly,
because if I don't like one of the movies, and
what am I going to do? You know, but I'm
(20:51):
sure I will can read this guy, but I'm interested.
Like the reason I'm asking this is because the three
month bender on Nothing matters. Talk to every single person
I could find anyone, like at the grocery store or whatever.
I was bringing up black conversation and I was hell
bent on figuring it out, and then I was like, no,
this is actually kind of a sad perspective because nothing matters, right.
(21:14):
So then I was like, well, I'm just sad, okay,
so now I need to not get sad. So I
started picking this concept apart my own life, and I
was like categorizing things like friends, family, you know, this
opportunity or whatever, and I was like, which one of
these actually is important? And then I always got hit
back with the whole thought of well, you know, we're
in this massive universe and we're like the size of
(21:36):
you know, a millionth of a grain of salt or
whatever it maybe, but it's something like that, right, So
it makes you feel extremely small and significant. But at
the same time, I'm like, well, I don't actually feel
that way, and I know a lot of people don't
feel that way because we have love, right. I think
love kind of breaks through a lot of that, and
I think we have emotional intelligence, which I also think
is under that umbrella. I was curious to hear where
(21:57):
you're at, because like, I know that you know, things
are changing for everyone, and I don't know if that
doesn't it at all, but just curious to get your
chick on it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I used to keep myself in
check a little bit around this, Like it's fun to
be grumpy and cynical, you know, just because it's just
like you can, it's just another character. But I'm not
really like that, you know, Like I'm very I love
the world and I love you know, I love a garden.
I love like going out in the garden that we've
got in the back of the house here in London
(22:24):
and just being in the garden now and then the
fox will come out and like just creep around the
trees and stuff, which is amazing and I'm like, oh man,
it's a fucking fox. And like, you know, I just
kind of you know, soon back and or the wonder
of the universe and the world and creation and you know,
I'm deeply I'm a real atheist. But now I'm like,
(22:49):
maybe there is a good you know, all these things
that happened to you. There's big changes that happened to you,
and like, you know, I can also put it down
to that whole like you know, the eight year cycle
that will go through in the same cycle, and yeah,
that's like I'm entering this new phase now where I
am starting to see things a lot differently, and I
(23:10):
still think that nothing matters, but I do think that
it's like there's a balance thing there, and it's yeah, yeah,
totally nothing matters. Nothing matters, But that doesn't mean that
you don't. Man, Yeah, you know, like I've always been
I've always believed that it's like I.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Was thinking about it last night, like where you know,
when you actually just break down what matter is, right,
I guess it's likes or something, right, But if there's
there's a there's a substance, so there's some kind of
thing that can be measured, and so when you think
about nothing matters, I was like, let me get down
to the basics of this, right. I was like, well,
if you feel something, then there's matter, right. You know,
(23:47):
if you love somebody, there's matter. If there's like a
reason to protect something, there's matter.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
There's something there that's tangible that you can talk about
and feel or maybe even see some I through some
crazy camera that somebody's development. But I do think I've
kind of like gotten to that new place, and I
think it's a relate to what you're saying, because I
think it comes with you know, not that I've had
the same level of success as making movies and all that,
(24:12):
but just kind of going through life sphereses and I'm
being aware of how things change and how people change,
and how like basically life is wild, and if you
can't go with it and accept the fact that it's
not going to be predictable, it's really difficult to kind
of get out of outside of that nothing matters mentality,
which I've been really working on because.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, but I love that idea that you know, like
there are things that matter, and those are things that
usually the things that matter are tangible, things that you
can hold, things that you can touch. You know, you
know a lot of things like ideas and success, those
are notions, and you know they don't matter in the
sense that it's just thought and its ego and that
(24:58):
isn't real matter. It's just things that you can pass through.
So when you think of like, okay, things that don't matter,
you know, it's more like you've got to choose what
doesn't matter, and what doesn't matter. What doesn't matter is
someone hurting your feelings. What doesn't matter is like the
future or the past, because it's not real, it's not tangible,
and you can pass through anything that isn't real matter.
(25:19):
You can just walk through it, you know, and you
let it pass through you. But the things that really
for me, that really matter is this garden and that fox,
and my kids and my food. You need that, you know,
These are all things I can touch and hold and like,
you know and feel that. Everything else, every other thing
(25:42):
is just a concept, and it's an idea that is
just not real until you even the idea of like
like even coming up with a story, thinking a story,
it's still not real. It doesn't matter. This fucking story
he does a ship, so like, you know, it's just spitting, like,
what's your priorities and listen when we're none of it's
going to be remembered in fifty years, so that doesn't matter.
(26:05):
It's like, have a good time. Stop chasing this idea
of immortality through like success, and I want to be
remembered from my art and stuff, because this shit, No
one remembers ninety nine point no no, no, nine percent
of artists who ever existed. There's only about thirty that
you know in books, and the rest are being forgotten
in time and they don't matter. And that's cool. That's fine.
(26:27):
They just did their thing that made them happy and passionate,
and they were into their art and then they were forgotten,
and that should be the way it is. But you
know you and I don't care if I'm forgotten.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
You remind me of these or like all the Irish storytellers,
like the shana kay you know what these are, these
kind of like traveling dudes that would just like turn
up in our neighborhood and they would be like, you know,
kind of like flying their freak flag a little bit.
But you know, it was just so accepted. It was
never questioned. It was just a thing that happened. And
(26:58):
so all the kids would gather the shark okay and
he would tell a story or she would tell a story,
and the story would be whatever may be, Like it
just could be anything, right, but it was. It was
seen as a rare ocasion for us to be blessed
by a story from a shana k And I always
I just thought about that. I was like, this is
kind of like who taich it is? Because I feel
(27:19):
like you can turn up and tell a story and
do it very risky and dramatic and likely make it
like very edgy if you know what I mean, because
I feel like that's your thing, Like it's always like
taking a big risk with whatever you're doing. Well, maybe not,
I have only seen it go long, but you know,
that's what the vibe I get. But but it reminded
me of that because it was like this guy turns up,
tells a story, disappears, comes back, tells a different story.
(27:42):
Maybe he has five more different stories working on. But
I love that kind of analogy for you because it's like.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
You know, and it's like, also, this is the way
I feel more and more now that I don't want
to be going and hanging out. I don't want an
office in a studio. I don't want to it that like,
I don't want that sort of studio deal. We have
to turn up Reeah. I was way happy. I just
going back to New Zealand and they're going sitting on
the beach and thinking about a story, not all day,
(28:12):
just now and then right and then writing it wheneveryone
wanted a deadline, and then just turning up back to Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And oh but I think I think when you said
when you sit down to when you sit down to
like make art, and you have like a schedule on
a team and all that. It just already immediately takes
away like twenty five percent of the inspiration because you're
like you have to do it, you know, if you
just like really just to be in the moment and
just go for it whenever you feel like it. I
definitely feel like even if it's five minutes, it could
(28:41):
be worth five hours of work because you were just
free to do that. I do think it's something to
be said for just having that freedom and going back
to your roots, as you were saying, and like, you know,
you've done the whole Hollywood bit, you know, like that
you really have, like what else is there to do?
So it's like in the next chapter, you're with the.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Fox, and I'm like, you know what, if I I
only did film for the rest of my life, I'd
be quite disappointed in myself. Yeah, so you've just got
to remember It's like film was a checker that started
when I was thirty that I did not think I
would want to last longer than eight years. And I've
been doing it now twenty and I'm like, fuck, man,
Like I've already let myself down in that respect to
(29:24):
stay them too long. I'm like I should have moved
on to fucking ages ago, and so already I'm like,
I want to do something else now, I want to
go Like you know, it's like what am I interested in?
I want to make some furniture. I want to be
a gardener and like just do some landscape guard and
that would be fucking epic. You know.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I used to cut trees stone for a living and
it was fucking amazing because you climb all the way
up in the spikes and then you'll be at the
top and you're at the top of the tree, you
can hear everything better because Nolise travels up or something.
But literally you can hear people whispering about you, and
it's like it's the fact it's in the tree, and
they're like like he's he's that size, he's that strong enough.
(30:00):
And I'm like, you guys, like send me the fucking
but you know what, it's just like, but being in
nature and being part of it and like just not
being caught up with people and being in that tree
for two hours, like I get it. And I'm kind
of at that point myself to a certain degree, or
I'm just like kind of taking stock, you know, of
what what's what's real and what's important, what's what's really
(30:21):
kind of got value, you know for me.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Beyond imaginable, beyond imaginable.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Like you've been a creative person right your whole life
and making stuff, Like why did it take you till
thirty ish to start thinking about making film?
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I was interested in that. It was everthing that crossed
my mind. I was only interested in just doing and making,
doing pictures and sculpting and making music and acting and
doing comedy with my friends and doing theater and making
putting on plays. And I was really happy just doing
that stuff. But also it was so poor, and I
(30:59):
was like, eventually when a film came along, as like,
it seems fun, right, it seems like it's quite fun
as well, do not have to have to put makeup
on it or costumes, and I could just be in
charge and be very creative and do all the things
I always normally do, but just now it's on a
film set. And then just got more and more into
it and just started getting so comfortable in that world
(31:20):
and feeling like, oh, I can express myself really well
and really easily doing this, so that it was my thing.
And then I was like, okay, great, well I guess
I found my cool.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
About this thing will work.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And now well now now I want to cool.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Well, I have a children's book I want to pitch
to you. So it's calm. It's called on your Feedback
you can. It's called My Imaginary In My Imaginary Me.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's for like two to three year olds. But the
imaginary me is this instinct or your gut, right that
talks to you. But the kid reads it and understands
that they have a superhero inside of them, and that
superhero is their gut or their instinct. And so every
page is a scenario with a kid you know, has
to go through something like there at school and the
mom took five minutes extually to pick them ups. That
(32:07):
they're worried about it, but they talked to their imaginary
superhero and he says, you know, your mom's going to
be here, relax, you know, or whatever. So it's like,
but I think I'm kind of like into that because
I'm like, because I had a kid, and I'm like,
you know, artistically or just thinking about like creating something
like I want to do something to get these kids
on a better track than I started on.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Totally. And I think that there are those books that
bese my kids were born. I brought the books that
I grew up with that they could have them around.
They weren't interested in them. But but there are those
things which changed, you know. I don't know what they
were for my kids. Like what books are the ones
where like you read them, you know a hundred times
(32:47):
that while you're growing up, and they just speak to you.
And there was one that called Leo the Late bloom
which is a book and it was about a tiger
who was just useless, fucking waste of space, little tiger
and you know, and his parents are like, h he's
terrible at everything. And you know, I think someone says, well,
(33:08):
he's just a late bloomer and and eventually, just one
one day, it just clipped and he became better than
everyone else and everything. I wouldn't sy I related too
much to that being a late bloomer, because I was
pretty gift gifted rush from the early age, Jimmy. But
you know the idea of that book of like, oh,
you know, you you things will happen for you when
(33:31):
it's ready, you know, in your time, in your own time,
and don't rush it, and that's actually something like I'm like, yeah,
that's so true for everybody.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
But not rushing it is key.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah. Well now I'm just like saying yes to everything
because I feel like that's what he's supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, do that. Like you're somebody who can pull
it off, you know, because you just have you have
like I think you.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Have, Like I just also like I think it's like
a self preservation thing. It's like if I only do
one project and it fails, then I've got nothing else.
I alway't have lots of backups and like lots of
things on the go. And that's like a really dangerous
excuse to have because then you're like, oh, if it fails,
then you can always say we but I had too
many things to do. So it's might double edged sword.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
But you have like such a career, You've got like
an on tapped kind of creative well. I think like
where you can just dive into a conversation and go
for it with a character story or whatever, and dive
into another totally different one and completely crush it. Because
I think your brand just works that way, you know.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I think it definitely loves to just have a lot
of things on the go that it can draw upon.
And then you get this interesting crossover between the projects
as well, where some projects that are like, you know,
the character is definitely the character from that other project
I was writing at the same time. Now that characters
and three of the projects and weird crossover between shows
and films.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Sorry, it fills up two lines in from this TV
show into this one, but it'll be fine. All of
those exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
That's exactly what happens.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
That's cool. I am interested to understand what's success? Do
you know that you're so successful?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So my idea of success changed quite a lot. You know.
At first it was like, oh, you've managed to focus
on one thing and finish it, and like that was
like great the success. Then it was like, oh, success
is like people liking you your thing, and then you're
getting you know, it's good for the ego. Then success,
you know, which is like this seems like these are
(35:34):
these stages of life. Then the success is monetary and
you're like financial success and you're like, oh, I'm validated
because people pay me a lot of money and that
must make me good at what I do, which is bullshit.
And then and that's just your quote that some someone
makes up, and so then it comes back around and
(35:55):
then you're like, fuck that, that's all bullshit and that's
not real success to just be finishing a thing and
liking it. Who cares what other people think? That's what
I think like filmmakers, and when they get older, it's
not making just weird things like they would have done
when they were like twenty, and people are like, oh
my god, why is this giant filmmaker going back to
making tiny, weird little films with no one's famous and
(36:17):
them that like, no one's going to watch. It's because
they just they know they can do the big things
and they just want to go back to like why
are they start the first place. I start feeling like that,
you know, you've got to kind of tap back into
that because otherwise it's just very easy to lose yourself.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, oh my god, and anything you know in.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
This tially in this industry. Yeah, because there's so many
voices telling you you're great, and then you realize, ah,
I don't know any of these people. And I only
trusted my friends for a reason because you know, I
could believe them, and my friends would say that was ship, right,
but now you shy away from that. You only want
to hear the positive.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yeah, well, yeah, totally. I mean that's Hollywood through and through.
And as you do have friends, which is great. I
watched Rick Rubin's Instagram a lot because he always has
these great quotes and you know, he's basically the message
is kind of under the same umbrella, which is, you know,
don't compare yourself, don't collaborate unless you want to collaborate,
(37:19):
don't do anything that you don't know how to do,
and just do the best thing that you know and
love it. And like, if you're really excited about it
and love it, then that is it. And the only
reason that you've gotten to where you're at is because
you've done that, and if you haven't been doing that,
wherever you're at will be a representation of that, which
is probably like not a great place to be. But
I feel like everything you've done and even what you're
(37:40):
saying right now, it's just like, you know, I've always
done what I want to do. I've always enjoyed doing it,
and I love working on lots of different projects. You know,
it's nearly even coming back to your first movie where
you got Oscar nominated for it. Right, but it was
like the first thing you did. Yeah, like in your career,
you're you've stayed very true to who you are, or
even though it's a big budget movies. But no matter
(38:02):
if it's big budget or not, I still think it's
it's like it's just so obviously your energy and your
ability and like your vision take all that on and
dream big and see all the characters and believe in
it all and like the amount of projects you do,
and I think, I think it's really merble cool. So
I don't think of unless it was like four am.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
That's four I am talks. What were we talking about?
I know I felt good?
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, like I was.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I was right.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I was writing like some ideas of like what we
could talk about. And one of one of the things
that it was, you know, I don't always remember all
of the chats, but I always come away from them
thinking that we talked about something good and I was
like energized.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
I always come away super energized.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah something you know.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, I'm like, oh man, we're gonna make this thing happen.
And I'm like, what was that. I think we were
getting in to politics. I think we started a political
party last night Beonimaginable
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