March 20, 2025 • 49 mins
In this insightful episode, special guest Chris Owens joins us to explore the compelling question: Why would someone choose to stay in a toxic relationship? We dive into the psychological, emotional, and situational factors that often hold people back from breaking free. Don't miss this thought-provoking discussion filled with practical advice and real-life insights.
Learn about the hidden effects of trauma, how it impacts your body, and the steps you can take to reclaim your health and peace of mind. Join us as we break down the symptoms, the science behind the trauma-illness connection, and offer guidance on how to heal both emotionally and physically.
Don’t miss out on this important information that can help you take control of your life and health.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Why would you stay?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Have you how many times have you heard that question?
Why don't you just leave? Why do you stay? I
can't tell you how many times I heard that question?
And it really makes you mad, right, it makes you
mad because people don't understand.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
What you're going yet they don't understand why you wouldn't
just leave. I'm so excited about this. We have a
special guest for today's podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
She was one of my first clients and she was
in a marriage twenty nine years and she literally left
in her car with her clothes in the middle of
the night. So we can't wait for you guys to
hear her story.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Welcome to the Victim to Warrior.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Show Warrior Talk, and this is our four four episodecast. Yes,
we're so excited. We're John and Melissa and we are
narcissistic abuse survivors and our mission is to help other
survivors reclaim and rebuild their lives.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I am so excited about this topic. We're in the
middle of a series now on our social media channels
called why would You Stay?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Have you many times have you heard that question? Why
don't you just leave? Why do you stay? I can't
tell you how many times I heard that question, and
it really makes you mad, right, it makes you mad
because people don't understand what you're.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Going yet, they don't understand why you wouldn't just leave. Yeah,
and so maybe you're not in the relationship anymore, but
you heard that question so many times in the past
and you're still kind of wondering why. So we're going
to do a deep dive into this whole topic today
and we have a really I am so excited about this.
We have a special guest for today's podcast. Let's talk
(01:43):
just a quick bit. Let's give a little hit.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
She was one of my first clients and she was
in a marriage twenty nine years and she literally left
in her car with her clothes in the middle of
the night. So we can't wait for you guys to
hear her story.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, and she is living her best life now. So
we're going to talk about where she was and where
she is now now. She got there, she got there, Yeah,
so we cannot wait to talk about it. So let's
talk a little bit about why would you stay? What
are some of the reasons that people would stay in
an abusive relationship.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, one, they could be trauma bonded, Okay, we don't
go out seeking an abusive person to spend the rest
of our life. Who's going to destroy us. When you
set out to be in a long term relationship of marriage,
a start, a family, the person that you choose, you
think that person feels the same way about you. You
(02:42):
don't think that they have this facade, this mask on
and they're not who they say they are. So when
that mask comes off, it's too late. Yeah, I mean
you are in that, you're in the marriage, you have children.
It comes off slowly, and it's very difficult to just go, Okay,
that person is evil. I need to get out.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So that's not the person I'm married.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
No, No, it's very very difficult for you to accept that,
and it takes a lot of work to retrain your
brain on that one. It could be because you're financially
dependent on this.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay, before we get into the second reason, Yeah, real quickly, guys,
I want to ask you to subscribe to our channel
before we go into examples two and three. We are
only sixty subscribers away from ten thousand subscribers, which massively we.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Want you to be there to sell it. Yeah with us, So.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Pause, this real quickly go up to the top of
the channel and click subscribe if you have it yet,
and we're going to have so many more podcasts and
great information for you along the way, so it'll be
worth your while. So but that will help us get
to ten thousands, So thank you so much. So back
to the second reason.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It's really uh, it's big, and it's financial dependency. Now,
you might not have started out that way. You might
have started out with your own job, you were successful,
you had your own money independent, But once you got
into this relationship with this abusive person, the control starts
(04:14):
all of a sudden. They're better money managers, or they
want you to stay home and you don't have to
work anymore. You can just stay home and you know
have account.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, you let.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Your bank account. Let's go ahead and have your paycheck
go into you know, the main account, and I'll pay
all the bills so you don't have to worry about it.
The the manipulation of getting control of all of the
money starts slow, and then it builds its way up
and by the time you have no control of no money,
(04:47):
the abuse is full blown. You know you've made the
biggest mistake ever by giving up control of the money.
So that's another reason why people stay because they think
they cannot get out financially, but they can't. You'll hear
that from our.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Guest right now. One thing about the financial abuse. We
created the Financial Empowerment Series, yes, which is it's a
six video series, forty seven page workbook. It really helps
you understand how to rebuild financially right well, protect yourself
first from future ruin or for any sort of abuse.
(05:21):
And I want to talk about my story just a
little bit in just a minute and tell you why
it's so critical to understand how to protect yourself but
then also how to rebuild your financial strength and empowerment.
So tell us a little bit about the financial series.
By the way, Melissa has a forty year.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Career in the financial industry. It's where I started, it's
where I retired from, and so being able to help
people rebuild financially is definitely right up my alley and
how to protect yourself as well. So the reason I
created the financial series was based on my background, and
it was it's all about protecting yourself from identity theft
(06:02):
with John and I were both victims of We have
our exes opened up credit in our name without our knowledge.
This is before we knew all of the little things
you can do to protect yourself, like freezing your credit
things like that. But this financial Empowerment series takes you
through from start to finish, you know, protecting your building
(06:24):
an emergency fund so you can leave, protecting yourself credit wise,
and building financial stability so you don't have to return
to your abuser. That is that's key.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, talk a little bit about that, you know, because
that's a huge thing. When people leave and they they're
not prepared. Yeah, guess what they have to go back? Yeah,
like fifty people go back and then.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
It's worse, Yes, it is worse, and you go back
out of desperation. So this series lets you methodically plan
so you are not just bolting because you just can't
take it anymore. So you just leave and then all
a sudden're gone. You realize you're cut off from all
the credit cards, all the money's gone. Now you're trying
to find a lawyer with no money. It gets it's
(07:07):
really really bad when you are left. When you've left
and all of a sudden, you find yourself financially, you know, destroyed,
and they will do that to you. They will absolutely
do or try. So you've got to prepare before you
make that decision and don't tell them. That's the biggest
mistake people make is you know, I'm going to leave
(07:29):
you or I'm going to divorce you if things don't change,
because that's when you're when your narcissist starts planning against you.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, they'll move assets, so you really have no nothing.
Now I want to brag on Melissa just for a second,
because I've seen her talk about what we're talking about,
the financial empowerments heres in front of five thousand women
several years in a row. She was part of Oprah
Renfrey's Sister Talk, which was something that was held in Atlanta,
(07:57):
and there would be five thousand women in this auditorium
listening to Melissa talk about financial empowerment. And what was
so amazing, Babe about this was the next year she
would come back, these women would approach her to hey,
I did what you said and now I'm here, or
I've been able to buy a house, or now my
credit has been repaired. Really amazing story.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah. I had one lady who got framed for a
crime she didn't commit, but she took the deal because
her nark told her if a woman would get less
of a sentence if they pled guilty to this, And
so she did, and she got twenty years and she
got out of jail. She wrote her own book. So
(08:37):
she wrote her book about what happened to her. And
the next year when I saw her, she looked beautiful,
She bought her own house, she was selling her book.
She actually was talking to other women and had started
coaching other women. So it was a great, great story.
I mean, such compassion, but so it was worth it. It
(08:58):
was definitely worth it to to talk to so many
women and help them through.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Right, so you have that experience. Forty years in the
financial industry, she's coached thousands and thousands of women on
financial empowerment. So if you're struggling with financial empowerment or
protecting yourself or no, or trying to leave and don't
have the funds to do, please go to our website.
We're gonna put the link below on the financial series
(09:22):
and just check out everything that's included in there. It
can be life changing for you. And again, Melissa is
an amazing coach as far as as concerned. She's spoken
to thousands and thousands of women Like I said, So okay,
So let's talk about the third reason that people might
have to stay in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, they believe they're narcissist lies, especially if they have children.
If you dare even mention the fact that you want out,
because you know how horrible it is, you know how
miserable you are. A lord knows what they're doing. But
if you have children with them, they will use that
against you. They will basically tell you lies. If you
leave me, you're not going to at the kids, I'm
(10:01):
going to take the house. You stay at home. You
haven't contributed financially, so I'm going to get the house.
You're going to get no child sport, no spousal support.
You didn't put anything into this marriage, so you're not
going to get a dime. All of those are lies,
but people believe them because how would you not believe them?
But laws protect people from that kind of financial misuse.
(10:25):
I mean are it's a legal word to it. It's
actually displacement of marital assets. And by telling you you're
not going to get anything that is not true, you
need to speak to a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
It's not their decision. First of all, it gets what.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's it's based on state laws, and so you need
to speak to an attorney who understands a narcissism who
can tell you your rights. Now, I have no problem doing
the research for you if you book a call with me.
I've done it for hundreds of women, just so you
know your rights, so you don't believe their lives because many, many,
many people will stay because they're too afraid to leave,
(11:03):
because they are afraid that they're going to lose their kids.
They are afraid they're going to be homeless and not
have any money to take care of themselves or their
kids when they if they take the kids with them.
So all of these manipulating lies are why many people
stay as well.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Right, So, if you want to set up a call
with Melissa, we'll put the link in the description below
one on one call. She is amazing ways and like
Melissa said, she's coached hundreds of women on how to
protect themselves, how to know what their rights are. She'll
do the state research, but she's amazing in that. And
that brings us to our special guest because I'm just
(11:41):
so proud of the way Melissa coached this particular person
through leaving a marriage of thirty years to go ahead,
baby well, and she.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Wanted to leave. She knew it was she was miserable
and she was being bullied in finitely controlled, and she
waited till her kids were old enough that she didn't
have to worry about them. So she suffered many, many
years of this because she didn't want to break up
the family. And she was a stay at home mom.
So but they had, you know, a nice house. He
(12:16):
had a great job. But he threatened all of those
lies that she wasn't going to get any money. She was,
you know, living out of her car or whatever. Things
got so miserable for her that when she reached out
to me, she said, I'm desperate, need I need to go.
I just don't know how to do it. So she
went through our twelve critical steps, and she methodically planned
(12:39):
her exit strategy. And when she left, she left in
her car with her clothes, and she left, but she
already had a place to go, She already had her
emergency fund. She had done all these steps, but she
left when he wasn't there, and she stayed gone, so
had all of those things in place. When she left.
(13:03):
She knew she was not going back, and you know what,
she got an amazing settlement out of her divorce because
we dug and found things and anyway, her story is
just amazing. I mean, we cried together, we celebrated together.
I'll never forget. John and I were on a live
TikTok and she called in and she was on the
(13:24):
beach with the glasses Champagne, celebrating the fact that she
just got a huge windfall from her divorce.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Gonna let her tell her story because it's so amazing
and it's even more amazing what she's doing now. Hey, everyone,
we were so excited to tell you about this special guest.
She is very, very dear to our heart.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And we have known Chris for over a year.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
That's how long we've been connected. So I wanted to
introduce you guys to Chris Capilletti Owens. And like I said,
she has been a victim to Warrior client for almost
well over a year, and we wanted to talk to
her about her story because it is unbelievable. It is
such a courageous story and she and I shared so
(14:15):
many tears together and celebrations. But we just are so
happy that she's with us right now, so I'm gonna
jump right into it, all right. So just so our
audience has a little bit of background on you, how
long were you married and do you have any children?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, I was married for twenty eight years and I
have two adult children today. One is twenty six, and
my oldest is my daughter, she's twenty six, and my
son is will be twenty two in two months. So yeah,
So along those lines, when did you realize you absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Had to leave that abusive situation to even to say,
save your own life and to even have a future of.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Your own, right. I mean, that's such a great question,
and for some of us, I don't know for all
of us if there's like a one singular moment, but
because I think for me, just speaking for me of
twenty eight years, there was a lot of years that
I just was unhappy because if you understand narcissism, you
(15:28):
know that they're not going to communicate, they don't talk
about issues at hand, they will never take responsibility for
any behavior within a relationship. So it becomes pretty isolating
after you realize all of this. And I think I
stayed for a long time because I too came from
(15:50):
a divorced family, and I just had that part of
me always thinking I'm never going to create that kind
of environment for my own two children. I'm also an
Ironman triathlete, and so I would do a lot of cycling, running,
et cetera. And typically when I would bike, I was
(16:13):
always traditionally gone for two or three three hours most likely.
And my ex husband would always he golfed on Wednesday nights.
So this one particular Wednesday night, he said he wasn't
going to go golfing. So I every time the garage
(16:35):
door opened, our phones would be alerted to say, Chris
opened the garage door, et cetera. So I opened the
garage door and I get home, I walk in and
there he's not home. And it was like six thirty
seven o'clock at night and he wasn't home. And I
didn't think anything of it at first, and then I
(16:56):
shut the garage door, and then I sat down and
I looked at our tracker, are our iPhone tracker, which
is a system that I established thinking he would he'd
kind of want to know where I was as a
realtor being all over the city, probably didn't really care,
but I created that system so I'm at some point
(17:20):
something came over me and said, look at the tracker. Well,
the tracker indicated he was in a subdivision about three
miles away from the house. To my knowledge, we as
a couple didn't know anybody back there together.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
And so something washed over me from head to toe.
I mean you like when you get that moment of
everything's on alert. You know what I mean? Oh yea
head to toe. I was like, I just knew right
then and there he was cheating. Oh gosh, I thought,
(18:00):
I am not gonna yell. I'm not gonna fight, I'm
not gonna directly confront. I'm just gonna So we He
comes in and I sit on the couch and he says,
on the couch across from me, and you talk about
gray rocking. I don't know. I didn't even know these
(18:22):
terms at that time. Yes, okay, it's ridiculous one. But
I also knew something was like just to ask him.
So I very care casually asked him where were you?
And he says he was at the office with his
slide and he's lying right to my face, left and
(18:42):
right and right there. Then at that very moment, I thought,
I there's nothing else, there's nothing to talk about because
they don't have conversations. I then knew that I needed
to protect my own safety, in my own own emotional
and mental health, and I needed to make a plan
(19:05):
to get out of there. Yeah, and that's what I
did for It took me three weeks, and that was
the decision point where I had said, I'm out of here.
Imagine tat. I was absolutely terrified. I had, Yeah, on
so many levels. I was terrified. When did you discover us?
(19:28):
What did you discover?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Victim to worry because I know your spiritual I am
to John and I are too, and I know a
lot of the hurdles that you've gone through. God kind
of put things in front of you. You might have
crawled over them or around him, but you're like, you
know what, there's a reason that he's closing doors and
opening others.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
So yeah, yeah, when did I discover you? Guys? Yeah?
You know what, I got to tell you. From the
moment that that decision unfolded to leave, God was absolutely amazing.
He was putting downloads into my heart so loud and
clear of direction.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
What to do?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I was people were coming, Well, it was through TikTok.
I think wow at the time, right, And so I
was just kind of like and then all of a sudden,
I'm getting all of this narcissistic abuse recovery information that
just is flowing into my to my eyesight. And you
(20:34):
guys were one of the first, and I just started connecting.
Every Wednesday night, you guys were doing your lives Stock lives,
and I put it on my calendar and I was like,
I'm not missing these if I can help it, right.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And so you were awesome on those lives because you
were chiming in and you know, helping other people because
it is so isolating even when you're, like you said,
in a marriage, in a relationship for all those years,
you feel totally alone.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And that's the way what was going through your head.
I mean, because obviously he didn't know anything, so you
were I'm assuming you use some of the critical steps
that we always talk about how to prepare to leave
safely so you don't return. Right.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
These critical steps that you outline are absolutely critical in
order to leave with some sense of safety insanity. They
are non negotiable for the victim to follow, hold it
(21:42):
all together at home and act as normal as ever.
And then I would go to my office and I
literally would dry heap, cry so hard because I just
I had all this energy and emotion running through me
that I could even acknowledge. And you had been numb
(22:04):
for so long, Yeah numb, And now I know what? Yes,
So now I know, I know that I know it's
time to get out, in which sadly said, sad to say,
I prayed. I prayed for years about you know, this
can't be the rest. I can't live the remainder of
my life like this, like really like.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I'm not going to be a character in somebody else's book,
in somebody else's life. And I remember, because you gosh,
we started having consultation calls in October of last year.
Since it's been over a year, and I remember you
telling me you threw clothes in your car and you
(22:45):
just just let the audience know that because this is
something that took so much courage to do, I want
them to hear it.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Oh my gosh. I when I look back, I absolutely
love sharing this part my story because it it is,
it is amazing. I look back and I think, how
like I can't make this stuff up kind of thing
it was so awesome. So yeah, after twenty eight years
of marriage, I literally just left with as many clothes
(23:17):
as I could put in my car. What I was
doing for the three weeks that I was preparing on
leaving is that I was trying to get as many
financial documents put together. I didn't even I didn't even
have a debit card to our joint checking account because
he was so controlling over finances and abuse. So I
wasn't even sure that I was getting everything. But I
(23:42):
was trying to make copies without him knowing, and then
putting everything back exactly where I found it because he
knew if it breathed wrong right. So so what I
would do is every time he would go to the office,
I would scram and put as much stuff in garbage
(24:03):
bags that I absolutely could, as far as clothes. And
then after three weeks of processing all of this, it
was to I knew I was ready, Like I'm like,
I can't have one more moment. At first, I had
no house to go to. I mean, I'm sure I
could have called among friends, but I had no place
(24:23):
to go. I couldn't move into this apartment, which I
was scared to death to even think about getting apart.
And by this time it was about eleven o'clock at night,
and I drove to where my daughter lives in Tennessee,
and because at the place, I knew where to go,
and I got to her house about two o'clock in
(24:43):
the morning, I said, I can't stay here because I'm
not going to put you in the position of having
to lie. And I don't know where I'm going, but
i will text you and let you know that I'm safe.
So when you talk about I immediately went no contact
(25:05):
because at that point I'm out of the house. I've
got my plan, I've already talked to the lawyer. I
emailed the lawyer that night when I left and I said, okay,
I'm out of the house, because that's all she was
waiting on for me to tell her, and I immediately
went no contact. It's the only most critical step. Yes,
(25:25):
and only only three of my most confident best girlfriends,
who he really doesn't even know because he never paid
attention to who's in my life and who my friends
are that kind of had no clue. Of course, they
were the only three people that knew I was doing
any of this, because again I couldn't trust like I
(25:49):
put it out there, because in the process, you're going
to have those people that the friends that aren't your
friend and that you oh yeah. So I was extremely
tight lipped and I lived this to everybody outside, but
only three. They were literally three people that knew exactly
(26:11):
what I was doing for that month. So I drive
I'm starting to drive south in Tennessee and I the
first sign I saw was for Chattanooga, Tennessee. I love Chattanooga,
and I thought, okay, I can go breathe. I'll go
breathe in Chattanooga, right, So that's what I did. And
(26:35):
at that time, I am now slowly starting to tell
my story to some friends that of course he has
no idea who they are, et cetera. So I have
a really good friend of mine, him and his wife.
I's told that I'm sitting in Chattanooga and this is why.
(26:55):
And they said, hey, we've got a condo and pretty
key Florida and you're only six hours from there. He goes,
He and his wife, they set me up. They gave
me all the access for their condo. It was a
gorgeous condo on the beach. For over a week, it
was just enough time for me to hang out until
(27:18):
I was able to move into my apartment to just breathe,
start to communicate with super close people, and I was
pretty pretty strategic in terms of you know, you know
who you can tell and who you can't. You really do.
You've got to trust that because why that's so important
(27:40):
is I had no idea of the now level of
rage that could have potentially come out of my ex.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Especially when you did something so completely out of character.
He would never have seen that. He would have never
you were so tight looked about it. And that's what
we say, can't threaten. You can't tell them because you're
giving them your playbook.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yep. And they had no idea. So that so that
was the best part too.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That was just.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And then I well, anyway.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
So.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, you so these steps are absolutely critical.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Critical, well and I and I'm I'm so glad it
was the steps I took. I mean, and it's uh,
and it's things that your brain might not be thinking
about because you're so overwhelmed, you're terrified, you're you know,
you've got to go, but it's like, what what am
I going to do? And if you don't take these
methodical steps and actually plan even if you have to
(28:44):
do what you did, pack your car and go, at
least you're not so overwhelmed that and terrified that you
turn around and go back.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
But there was one level of communication that I left
open because it was necessary. Was email. Did he ever
send to say are you okay? Where are you? Are
you safe? Can we talk about anything? Not one? Not
(29:14):
one sentence of any care and concern it was I
was left. I think he was just shocked and surprised.
And one of our really good friends who I was
pretty much better friends with than my ex, but we
the three of us, kind of got together a lot
and watched football. He was a longtime neighbor that we
(29:38):
all knew for like twenty five years, right, So I
then told immediately I called this neighbor and I told
him exactly what happened, because he texted out to say, hey,
we watch in football that Saturday. He's done a Thursday,
so wow, And I told him immediately what was going
At first he was shocked, but then I told him
(30:00):
more and more and more, and he goes, well, I'm
going to still meet him on Saturday for football. And
I had already been gone for two days. He lied
to his face because my ex couldn't admit that I
left him, and he continued to lie to our friends'
(30:22):
faces as it unfolded for months because he couldn't even
look people in the eye to say I left him.
He would say that I was out working and showing homes.
So yeah, so there you go with that. So how
is my life different? The level of peace, y'all is
so much better. I finally feel like I'm able to
(30:44):
live my authentic self now. It's not always easy. You know,
when healing, you're going to have really great days and
then you're going to have really hard days because healing
is hard. It is you're going to have if you
really want to heal, you're going to have to confront
some things. But the payoff on healing is so worth it,
(31:12):
because if I don't, I want nothing of the old
behavior me and I don't want to repeat any old
relationship behaviors on any love of that.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
That's very profound, because we do become someone else just
to survive, just to maintain sanity, And I always say,
we become a shell of who we were when they
met us. And so getting back who you were before
and then being stronger. That is a journey that once
(31:52):
you once you're there, you realize it was so worth it.
All the pain, all the terrors, all the terror, fine nightmares,
it was worth it.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So I went from leaving with clothes after twenty eight
marriage he I didn't take furniture or anything. And so
my first year, I swear, I feel like, you know,
I just kind of ran on adrenaline, right, I got
set up and I had these outpour of blessings in
my life, people genuinely helping and and but now I
(32:26):
am over a year of being completely out. I have
purchased my own condo. I am now living within my
own home, and I now I for the first time,
I feel like I can get super grounded because now
I feel like I have a home and I'm not
having to I'm not running as much like your own.
(32:52):
This amazing group of people as well, and you're giving
them and we can share our encouragement and our hope
and pray, you know, with one another, and feed our
stories to say if I can do this, you can too,
and I, you know, and everyone's at different places within
(33:12):
the journey. So it's just powerful.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It's so much It's so much better to do that
journey with a supportive group than completely alone, because not
being in a narcissistic relationship is so isolating, it is very,
very isolating.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
So having a.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Supportive group, that's the reason we started the private Facebook
group is so people could go and ask questions, then
to cry whatever they needed to do. And people that
understood actually are listening, because a narcissist will not listen.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
They don't care, they don't they And that was the
thing that was the most the biggest aha revealing moment
is that when I laughed, there were so many little
like remember we were cross referencing phone numbers and oh yes,
and I was just putting so many little like wow,
(34:11):
like he had this total private life that like. So
the scary thing was is that I look back and
I was like, Holy Holly, Like, who was this man
that I just gave almost thirty years in my life to.
It was a little scary, I think.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yes, And and just doing it without one ounce of remorse. Yeah,
and just thinking, you know, you're you're the little trophy wife.
You're making the family look good, the neighbors, keeping that image,
only hiding who he really was from everyone, and a
lot of it. I remember us discovering and he was
(34:51):
hiding definitely a lot from you. And that's really that's
really sad. But when God starts taking those blinders off,
it does make the road.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
It's still hard. It's hard when you're pulling you along.
You know when you're ready and you say yes to
your faith. But now I can really feel like I
can make actionable steps in the way and direction of
where God wants me to go. And I don't have
(35:22):
to live with this internal quiet like, Okay, I hear
you God, but I can't do that. Really feel like
I can live this life with a with a scene
testimony that I I just sit there and I go,
I can't make this up. I can't make up and
(35:44):
I couldn't have planned how the last year. Just know
that there's resources gray Rock, that narcissist. Yes, yes, that's
one of our most anything anymore like, and just start
to take your life back one moment, one small step
(36:05):
at a time. And there's people professionally like you and
John and then those of us who are connecting that
are sitting here with our hands wide open saying we
got you, we get you, yeah, yeah, And The best
thing is you can't always explain narcissism to those that
(36:26):
don't understand it. No, you can't. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
You're right because I've had so many clients tell me
that they were in therapy and believe me, I have
all the respect in the world for counselors and license theory,
but that years of that just not understanding what it
feels like. And you know, and I guess that's why
I could be so relatable, is because I know what
it feels like, and what you say doesn't doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I'm not trying to blame it on something else because
we didn't cause this. We didn't create that, we didn't
create that personality disorder. We just we just chose the
wrong person who we just weren't We weren't really aware
of who they were because they weren't that person right.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
The persons right, And you've got to give yourself grace.
We're smart women. I'm a smart, educated, smart woman. I've
got a friend of mine that is an obgyn dector
that is now divorcing a narcissic. Jesus, we say this
all time. We're smart, smart women, But yet so you've
(37:34):
got to give yourself grace of the forgiveness to be like, why,
I mean, why did I stay for twenty eight years?
There was a lot of reasons, but you know what,
here's the one thing my daughter told me is that
if you left any sooner, we wouldn't have had that
we don't we wouldn't have the relationship that we have now.
And that really kind of took the guilt because I
(37:56):
carried some guilt knowing that I'm sure in this, yes,
and also not doing anything about the suffering that my
children were suffering with. So I think that's something that
no matter who you are, we're smart individuals. We're made
(38:20):
for more, yes, and first not to but we are
daughters of the king. Like there's so much about each
and every one of us that we have to acknowledge that.
And so just be kind to yourself and not to
beat yourself up on that perspective, because there's a lot
to unravel when we when we understand of where we
(38:46):
were and how we were caught in that narcissistic web.
It's just awful, but there's so much freedom.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, And I love the way you said that, because
you do have to give yourself grace and you do
have to go through that grieving process just to get
to the other side.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Well, you know, we love you, We love you to death.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I love you, guys, and we're so so, so so
proud of you. So would you recommend us to anyone
that is going through the.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Same Absolutely, I mean you guys, not only you Melissa,
but John understands it too. So what a powerhouse couple
that you guys can give back, right And also just
to understand that it's not just an it's a male dog.
Like it goes, there's wind, it goes both ways. And
(39:39):
then I think, but in the midst of our fears
of being trapped in it, like your playbook and your
to do list, every step is critical, critical. And I
will also say that you personally just create a safe
(40:00):
place to be vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Because because that's the vulnerability, we've never been able to
allow ourselves within that relationship be tr So you've got
to create a level of trust somewhere somehow with somebody.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Gray, rock them, no contact them, make a preparation plan
and just get out.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Absolutely, and you're living proof of that. You are absolutely
living proof. And gosh, we could not be more happy
for you.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
I mean, and we're so excited that you're a first guest.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
We love it. We love it because it's been literally
over a.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Year and I said, I had you know, I.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Wanted you to be our first guest because we are
so proud of you and we love what you're doing now.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
And thank you for sharing your story.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
And letting people know that what we do here at
Victim to Warrior works.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Living the one thousand percent works well.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Thank you, thank you, Thank you, Chris. We appreciate it,
and we'd love to.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Have you back again. Absolutely, all right, all right, love
you girl, Thanks, love you guys too.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Bye bye Wow, Okay that you know what it just
I can just feel it in my chest. It's just
amazing and the bravery, the courage. You can do this.
You can absolutely do this. It doesn't matter if you
don't think you have the means financially. There are ways
(41:34):
that you can start methodically planning your exit strategy. And
we'd love for you to take a look at our
twelve critical Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
We really want to talk about that because that's that's
what our What she was able to do was go
through the twelve critical steps methodically and set them all
up so that when that day came, she was able
to leave and leave safely, which is huge, but also
to not have to go back.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
And so because she blocked him, she absolutely blocked him.
And you know what, and that was one of the
most difficult things for her because when she and I
talked about it after she left, kind of working through
the aftermath because it mentally, it does challenge you because
you're all of a sudden alone now, and you haven't
(42:21):
had control of the money, and you're overwhelmed, and you're
scared and it's lonely. All of those things our natural
emotions that come with finally breaking free. But those are
the things that we can work through. Those are the
things that you can work through and get past it.
But you are not in a desperate situation where you
(42:43):
return to that abuser because you're so overwhelmed. You don't
have to think about a roof over your head and
food in your stomach. You have methodically planned that. So
when you leave, you are now on your healing journey.
That is a shut book.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, so let's talk about that. The twelve critical steps
to take before you leave recorded webinar. Now, if you
go to our way I'm gonna put the link into
description for it so you can go to that page
on our website and see everything that's included. It's really
really amazing. And you know, I always say both Melissa
and I did not have this information when Westake. I
(43:20):
was dumbinough and that's.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Where our programs.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, I was dumb enough to say, hey, I don't
think this is working. We need to get a divorce.
And I let her know what I wanted to do. Well,
a couple of days, I come home from the office
and my house is completely empty. She had taken everything
out of my house and used my credit cards to
(43:43):
pay for the movers and also set up accounts in
my name. She had all my information, so he was
able to do that because my credit wasn't frozen. So
I made every mistake you could possibly make.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
When a marriage is not working, you're both in those
you think you just don't think someone is going to
do that kind of evil behavior, which both of us.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, and I know you went through a little hell
because she also told her.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, and that's honestly, John says that that's when the
war begins. When you tell them, that's when the war begins.
So don't tell them until you have all.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Of your ducks, and if you haven't left yet, don't
tell them. You want to do everything. And I always
say about this twelve critical steps is it's almost like,
you know, think about when you're leaving for a trip tomorrow.
You have your whole checklist of everything you need to do.
Pick up your dry clean you put the dogs in
the kennel, get your passport, what time you have to
leave for the airport. You don't check check, check, check, check,
same thing here. You're leaving for good, and so you
(44:46):
want to make sure that you have all of these things.
You're gonna love this recorded webinar because I think it
brings the anxiety level down a lot too. If you
haven't left yet, you just follow the checklist, follow the checklists,
and it's going to take some time to get all
your a row. But then when you leave, you can
leave confidently knowing that you've got everything taken care of.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
And you're prepared. When you go and talk to an
attorney who understands a narcissistic behavior, and you're not so
overwhelmed that you don't know what to do. You are
now thinking clearly because you do have a plan of action,
and you do have somebody that's going to hold your
hand through the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
So I want Melissa to tell her story real quickly.
I'm kind of she doesn't know I'm doing this or
asking this question. But what did your narcissists say when
you told him to move out?
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Oh my gosh, I remember it to this day. It
was my house. I bought it, I was paying all
the expenses. He was paying nothing, not a penny. And
it was so miserable, and it was so horrific that
I just, after a huge fight, standing in the middle
of our four yer, I said, I want a divorce.
And all of a sudden, where he was, you know,
(46:00):
telling me we could work things out, you know, we'll
go to counseling. That changed in a second, and that
face expression turned evil and he started laughing, laughing. He
started laughing at me, and he said, no problem, pack
your bags and get out, pack my bags and get
out of my own house. That's what he said to me.
(46:20):
And he goes, I don't want a divorce, I'm not leaving,
and he walked away, and I swear I was so stunned.
I couldn't I could not believe it, and that is
when the war started.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
But he he also told you that you were going
to have to keep him to life that he had
become accustomed to.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Oh, that's right. He did say that to me, he goes,
he goes, Okay, no problem. And when he told me
to get out of my own house, he said, but
just understand, you will keep me in the life that
I have become accustomed to, which was the life that
I right after being married.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
So oh, so that leads me to this. If you
haven't seen our series on our social media challenge, Yeah,
Don't Believe Your Narks Lies. We have a multi series,
multi post series on different examples of what narcissist lives
look like. If you're still in the relationship and still
dealing with it, yeah, and if you if you've left
(47:13):
and you're gone, it might be fun to kind of
watch them again and say, oh my god, he said
the exact same thing, or she said this to me.
So glad I'm out of that. So please go to
any one of our channels TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, or right
here on YouTube. We have shorts also, and you can
find the series Don't Believe Your Nark slides. So, you
(47:34):
know what, I'm really grateful that we went into this
today and really talked about this. You know, most of
what we talk about is after you've left, or helping
you to get through divorce or co parenting or recovery,
you know, things like that, but it's so important to
really talk about for the folks that are still in
it and are still struggling, you know, how do.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
They get out and that you have hope and do it? Yeah,
And that's why how blak, That's why we want That's
why we were so happy to bring our guest on
is because we wanted you to hear her story. So
you know, it can be it can work, Yeah, it
can It could be done right. Yeah. So we we
appreciate you guys tuning in.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
If you have, you subscribe, and please like this podcast
and give.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Us give us your comments. You know, what did you like,
what you did like? What would you like to see?
This is all about you and we want to make
sure we are bringing you content that is helpful.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, and we have one last thing if you have
any questions for us, just I'm going to put this
in the description as well. Questions at the v twow
dot com uh to send any questions to us, will
we get glad to get back to them, or we
might feature those questions on our next podcast. So definitely
do that, and also please check out our website vv
(48:52):
twow dot com. I'm gonna put that link in the
description as well.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
We've got tons of resources for anyone on this journey
and there are millions of people on it, so you're
not alone. You can always join our private anonymous Facebook group.
We'll also put that in the description below. The last
podcast we had, we had I think forty one people
who join are already growing community of warriors, and it's
(49:15):
completely private and anonymous. It's a safe place for you
to talk about your situation, get advice, and most of all,
get support and know that you are not alone because
we have people from all over the world in our
private Facebook group. So absolutely definitely consider joining it. But
thank you so much for tuning in, thank you for
following us, and we look forward to seeing you on
our next podcast.
Why would you stay?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Have you how many times have you heard that question?
Why don't you just leave? Why do you stay? I
can't tell you how many times I heard that question?
And it really makes you mad, right, it makes you
mad because people don't understand.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
What you're going yet they don't understand why you wouldn't
just leave. I'm so excited about this. We have a
special guest for today's podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
She was one of my first clients and she was
in a marriage twenty nine years and she literally left
in her car with her clothes in the middle of
the night. So we can't wait for you guys to
hear her story.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Welcome to the Victim to Warrior.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Show Warrior Talk, and this is our four four episodecast. Yes,
we're so excited. We're John and Melissa and we are
narcissistic abuse survivors and our mission is to help other
survivors reclaim and rebuild their lives.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I am so excited about this topic. We're in the
middle of a series now on our social media channels
called why would You Stay?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Have you many times have you heard that question? Why
don't you just leave? Why do you stay? I can't
tell you how many times I heard that question, and
it really makes you mad, right, it makes you mad
because people don't understand what you're.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Going yet, they don't understand why you wouldn't just leave. Yeah,
and so maybe you're not in the relationship anymore, but
you heard that question so many times in the past
and you're still kind of wondering why. So we're going
to do a deep dive into this whole topic today
and we have a really I am so excited about this.
We have a special guest for today's podcast. Let's talk
(01:43):
just a quick bit. Let's give a little hit.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
She was one of my first clients and she was
in a marriage twenty nine years and she literally left
in her car with her clothes in the middle of
the night. So we can't wait for you guys to
hear her story.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, and she is living her best life now. So
we're going to talk about where she was and where
she is now now. She got there, she got there, Yeah,
so we cannot wait to talk about it. So let's
talk a little bit about why would you stay? What
are some of the reasons that people would stay in
an abusive relationship.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, one, they could be trauma bonded, Okay, we don't
go out seeking an abusive person to spend the rest
of our life. Who's going to destroy us. When you
set out to be in a long term relationship of marriage,
a start, a family, the person that you choose, you
think that person feels the same way about you. You
(02:42):
don't think that they have this facade, this mask on
and they're not who they say they are. So when
that mask comes off, it's too late. Yeah, I mean
you are in that, you're in the marriage, you have children.
It comes off slowly, and it's very difficult to just go, Okay,
that person is evil. I need to get out.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So that's not the person I'm married.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
No, No, it's very very difficult for you to accept that,
and it takes a lot of work to retrain your
brain on that one. It could be because you're financially
dependent on this.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay, before we get into the second reason, Yeah, real quickly, guys,
I want to ask you to subscribe to our channel
before we go into examples two and three. We are
only sixty subscribers away from ten thousand subscribers, which massively we.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Want you to be there to sell it. Yeah with us, So.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Pause, this real quickly go up to the top of
the channel and click subscribe if you have it yet,
and we're going to have so many more podcasts and
great information for you along the way, so it'll be
worth your while. So but that will help us get
to ten thousands, So thank you so much. So back
to the second reason.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It's really uh, it's big, and it's financial dependency. Now,
you might not have started out that way. You might
have started out with your own job, you were successful,
you had your own money independent, But once you got
into this relationship with this abusive person, the control starts
(04:14):
all of a sudden. They're better money managers, or they
want you to stay home and you don't have to
work anymore. You can just stay home and you know
have account.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, you let.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Your bank account. Let's go ahead and have your paycheck
go into you know, the main account, and I'll pay
all the bills so you don't have to worry about it.
The the manipulation of getting control of all of the
money starts slow, and then it builds its way up
and by the time you have no control of no money,
(04:47):
the abuse is full blown. You know you've made the
biggest mistake ever by giving up control of the money.
So that's another reason why people stay because they think
they cannot get out financially, but they can't. You'll hear
that from our.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Guest right now. One thing about the financial abuse. We
created the Financial Empowerment Series, yes, which is it's a
six video series, forty seven page workbook. It really helps
you understand how to rebuild financially right well, protect yourself
first from future ruin or for any sort of abuse.
(05:21):
And I want to talk about my story just a
little bit in just a minute and tell you why
it's so critical to understand how to protect yourself but
then also how to rebuild your financial strength and empowerment.
So tell us a little bit about the financial series.
By the way, Melissa has a forty year.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Career in the financial industry. It's where I started, it's
where I retired from, and so being able to help
people rebuild financially is definitely right up my alley and
how to protect yourself as well. So the reason I
created the financial series was based on my background, and
it was it's all about protecting yourself from identity theft
(06:02):
with John and I were both victims of We have
our exes opened up credit in our name without our knowledge.
This is before we knew all of the little things
you can do to protect yourself, like freezing your credit
things like that. But this financial Empowerment series takes you
through from start to finish, you know, protecting your building
(06:24):
an emergency fund so you can leave, protecting yourself credit wise,
and building financial stability so you don't have to return
to your abuser. That is that's key.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, talk a little bit about that, you know, because
that's a huge thing. When people leave and they they're
not prepared. Yeah, guess what they have to go back? Yeah,
like fifty people go back and then.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
It's worse, Yes, it is worse, and you go back
out of desperation. So this series lets you methodically plan
so you are not just bolting because you just can't
take it anymore. So you just leave and then all
a sudden're gone. You realize you're cut off from all
the credit cards, all the money's gone. Now you're trying
to find a lawyer with no money. It gets it's
(07:07):
really really bad when you are left. When you've left
and all of a sudden, you find yourself financially, you know, destroyed,
and they will do that to you. They will absolutely
do or try. So you've got to prepare before you
make that decision and don't tell them. That's the biggest
mistake people make is you know, I'm going to leave
(07:29):
you or I'm going to divorce you if things don't change,
because that's when you're when your narcissist starts planning against you.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, they'll move assets, so you really have no nothing.
Now I want to brag on Melissa just for a second,
because I've seen her talk about what we're talking about,
the financial empowerments heres in front of five thousand women
several years in a row. She was part of Oprah
Renfrey's Sister Talk, which was something that was held in Atlanta,
(07:57):
and there would be five thousand women in this auditorium
listening to Melissa talk about financial empowerment. And what was
so amazing, Babe about this was the next year she
would come back, these women would approach her to hey,
I did what you said and now I'm here, or
I've been able to buy a house, or now my
credit has been repaired. Really amazing story.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah. I had one lady who got framed for a
crime she didn't commit, but she took the deal because
her nark told her if a woman would get less
of a sentence if they pled guilty to this, And
so she did, and she got twenty years and she
got out of jail. She wrote her own book. So
(08:37):
she wrote her book about what happened to her. And
the next year when I saw her, she looked beautiful,
She bought her own house, she was selling her book.
She actually was talking to other women and had started
coaching other women. So it was a great, great story.
I mean, such compassion, but so it was worth it. It
(08:58):
was definitely worth it to to talk to so many
women and help them through.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Right, so you have that experience. Forty years in the
financial industry, she's coached thousands and thousands of women on
financial empowerment. So if you're struggling with financial empowerment or
protecting yourself or no, or trying to leave and don't
have the funds to do, please go to our website.
We're gonna put the link below on the financial series
(09:22):
and just check out everything that's included in there. It
can be life changing for you. And again, Melissa is
an amazing coach as far as as concerned. She's spoken
to thousands and thousands of women Like I said, So okay,
So let's talk about the third reason that people might
have to stay in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, they believe they're narcissist lies, especially if they have children.
If you dare even mention the fact that you want out,
because you know how horrible it is, you know how
miserable you are. A lord knows what they're doing. But
if you have children with them, they will use that
against you. They will basically tell you lies. If you
leave me, you're not going to at the kids, I'm
(10:01):
going to take the house. You stay at home. You
haven't contributed financially, so I'm going to get the house.
You're going to get no child sport, no spousal support.
You didn't put anything into this marriage, so you're not
going to get a dime. All of those are lies,
but people believe them because how would you not believe them?
But laws protect people from that kind of financial misuse.
(10:25):
I mean are it's a legal word to it. It's
actually displacement of marital assets. And by telling you you're
not going to get anything that is not true, you
need to speak to a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
It's not their decision. First of all, it gets what.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's it's based on state laws, and so you need
to speak to an attorney who understands a narcissism who
can tell you your rights. Now, I have no problem doing
the research for you if you book a call with me.
I've done it for hundreds of women, just so you
know your rights, so you don't believe their lives because many, many,
many people will stay because they're too afraid to leave,
(11:03):
because they are afraid that they're going to lose their kids.
They are afraid they're going to be homeless and not
have any money to take care of themselves or their
kids when they if they take the kids with them.
So all of these manipulating lies are why many people
stay as well.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Right, So, if you want to set up a call
with Melissa, we'll put the link in the description below
one on one call. She is amazing ways and like
Melissa said, she's coached hundreds of women on how to
protect themselves, how to know what their rights are. She'll
do the state research, but she's amazing in that. And
that brings us to our special guest because I'm just
(11:41):
so proud of the way Melissa coached this particular person
through leaving a marriage of thirty years to go ahead,
baby well, and she.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Wanted to leave. She knew it was she was miserable
and she was being bullied in finitely controlled, and she
waited till her kids were old enough that she didn't
have to worry about them. So she suffered many, many
years of this because she didn't want to break up
the family. And she was a stay at home mom.
So but they had, you know, a nice house. He
(12:16):
had a great job. But he threatened all of those
lies that she wasn't going to get any money. She was,
you know, living out of her car or whatever. Things
got so miserable for her that when she reached out
to me, she said, I'm desperate, need I need to go.
I just don't know how to do it. So she
went through our twelve critical steps, and she methodically planned
(12:39):
her exit strategy. And when she left, she left in
her car with her clothes, and she left, but she
already had a place to go, She already had her
emergency fund. She had done all these steps, but she
left when he wasn't there, and she stayed gone, so
had all of those things in place. When she left.
(13:03):
She knew she was not going back, and you know what,
she got an amazing settlement out of her divorce because
we dug and found things and anyway, her story is
just amazing. I mean, we cried together, we celebrated together.
I'll never forget. John and I were on a live
TikTok and she called in and she was on the
(13:24):
beach with the glasses Champagne, celebrating the fact that she
just got a huge windfall from her divorce.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Gonna let her tell her story because it's so amazing
and it's even more amazing what she's doing now. Hey, everyone,
we were so excited to tell you about this special guest.
She is very, very dear to our heart.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And we have known Chris for over a year.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
That's how long we've been connected. So I wanted to
introduce you guys to Chris Capilletti Owens. And like I said,
she has been a victim to Warrior client for almost
well over a year, and we wanted to talk to
her about her story because it is unbelievable. It is
such a courageous story and she and I shared so
(14:15):
many tears together and celebrations. But we just are so
happy that she's with us right now, so I'm gonna
jump right into it, all right. So just so our
audience has a little bit of background on you, how
long were you married and do you have any children?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, I was married for twenty eight years and I
have two adult children today. One is twenty six, and
my oldest is my daughter, she's twenty six, and my
son is will be twenty two in two months. So yeah,
So along those lines, when did you realize you absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Had to leave that abusive situation to even to say,
save your own life and to even have a future of.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Your own, right. I mean, that's such a great question,
and for some of us, I don't know for all
of us if there's like a one singular moment, but
because I think for me, just speaking for me of
twenty eight years, there was a lot of years that
I just was unhappy because if you understand narcissism, you
(15:28):
know that they're not going to communicate, they don't talk
about issues at hand, they will never take responsibility for
any behavior within a relationship. So it becomes pretty isolating
after you realize all of this. And I think I
stayed for a long time because I too came from
(15:50):
a divorced family, and I just had that part of
me always thinking I'm never going to create that kind
of environment for my own two children. I'm also an
Ironman triathlete, and so I would do a lot of cycling, running,
et cetera. And typically when I would bike, I was
(16:13):
always traditionally gone for two or three three hours most likely.
And my ex husband would always he golfed on Wednesday nights.
So this one particular Wednesday night, he said he wasn't
going to go golfing. So I every time the garage
(16:35):
door opened, our phones would be alerted to say, Chris
opened the garage door, et cetera. So I opened the
garage door and I get home, I walk in and
there he's not home. And it was like six thirty
seven o'clock at night and he wasn't home. And I
didn't think anything of it at first, and then I
(16:56):
shut the garage door, and then I sat down and
I looked at our tracker, are our iPhone tracker, which
is a system that I established thinking he would he'd
kind of want to know where I was as a
realtor being all over the city, probably didn't really care,
but I created that system so I'm at some point
(17:20):
something came over me and said, look at the tracker. Well,
the tracker indicated he was in a subdivision about three
miles away from the house. To my knowledge, we as
a couple didn't know anybody back there together.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
And so something washed over me from head to toe.
I mean you like when you get that moment of
everything's on alert. You know what I mean? Oh yea
head to toe. I was like, I just knew right
then and there he was cheating. Oh gosh, I thought,
(18:00):
I am not gonna yell. I'm not gonna fight, I'm
not gonna directly confront. I'm just gonna So we He
comes in and I sit on the couch and he says,
on the couch across from me, and you talk about
gray rocking. I don't know. I didn't even know these
(18:22):
terms at that time. Yes, okay, it's ridiculous one. But
I also knew something was like just to ask him.
So I very care casually asked him where were you?
And he says he was at the office with his
slide and he's lying right to my face, left and
(18:42):
right and right there. Then at that very moment, I thought,
I there's nothing else, there's nothing to talk about because
they don't have conversations. I then knew that I needed
to protect my own safety, in my own own emotional
and mental health, and I needed to make a plan
(19:05):
to get out of there. Yeah, and that's what I
did for It took me three weeks, and that was
the decision point where I had said, I'm out of here.
Imagine tat. I was absolutely terrified. I had, Yeah, on
so many levels. I was terrified. When did you discover us?
(19:28):
What did you discover?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Victim to worry because I know your spiritual I am
to John and I are too, and I know a
lot of the hurdles that you've gone through. God kind
of put things in front of you. You might have
crawled over them or around him, but you're like, you
know what, there's a reason that he's closing doors and
opening others.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
So yeah, yeah, when did I discover you? Guys? Yeah?
You know what, I got to tell you. From the
moment that that decision unfolded to leave, God was absolutely amazing.
He was putting downloads into my heart so loud and
clear of direction.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
What to do?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I was people were coming, Well, it was through TikTok.
I think wow at the time, right, And so I
was just kind of like and then all of a sudden,
I'm getting all of this narcissistic abuse recovery information that
just is flowing into my to my eyesight. And you
(20:34):
guys were one of the first, and I just started connecting.
Every Wednesday night, you guys were doing your lives Stock lives,
and I put it on my calendar and I was like,
I'm not missing these if I can help it, right.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And so you were awesome on those lives because you
were chiming in and you know, helping other people because
it is so isolating even when you're, like you said,
in a marriage, in a relationship for all those years,
you feel totally alone.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And that's the way what was going through your head.
I mean, because obviously he didn't know anything, so you
were I'm assuming you use some of the critical steps
that we always talk about how to prepare to leave
safely so you don't return. Right.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
These critical steps that you outline are absolutely critical in
order to leave with some sense of safety insanity. They
are non negotiable for the victim to follow, hold it
(21:42):
all together at home and act as normal as ever.
And then I would go to my office and I
literally would dry heap, cry so hard because I just
I had all this energy and emotion running through me
that I could even acknowledge. And you had been numb
(22:04):
for so long, Yeah numb, And now I know what? Yes,
So now I know, I know that I know it's
time to get out, in which sadly said, sad to say,
I prayed. I prayed for years about you know, this
can't be the rest. I can't live the remainder of
my life like this, like really like.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I'm not going to be a character in somebody else's book,
in somebody else's life. And I remember, because you gosh,
we started having consultation calls in October of last year.
Since it's been over a year, and I remember you
telling me you threw clothes in your car and you
(22:45):
just just let the audience know that because this is
something that took so much courage to do, I want
them to hear it.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Oh my gosh. I when I look back, I absolutely
love sharing this part my story because it it is,
it is amazing. I look back and I think, how
like I can't make this stuff up kind of thing
it was so awesome. So yeah, after twenty eight years
of marriage, I literally just left with as many clothes
(23:17):
as I could put in my car. What I was
doing for the three weeks that I was preparing on
leaving is that I was trying to get as many
financial documents put together. I didn't even I didn't even
have a debit card to our joint checking account because
he was so controlling over finances and abuse. So I
wasn't even sure that I was getting everything. But I
(23:42):
was trying to make copies without him knowing, and then
putting everything back exactly where I found it because he
knew if it breathed wrong right. So so what I
would do is every time he would go to the office,
I would scram and put as much stuff in garbage
(24:03):
bags that I absolutely could, as far as clothes. And
then after three weeks of processing all of this, it
was to I knew I was ready, Like I'm like,
I can't have one more moment. At first, I had
no house to go to. I mean, I'm sure I
could have called among friends, but I had no place
(24:23):
to go. I couldn't move into this apartment, which I
was scared to death to even think about getting apart.
And by this time it was about eleven o'clock at night,
and I drove to where my daughter lives in Tennessee,
and because at the place, I knew where to go,
and I got to her house about two o'clock in
(24:43):
the morning, I said, I can't stay here because I'm
not going to put you in the position of having
to lie. And I don't know where I'm going, but
i will text you and let you know that I'm safe.
So when you talk about I immediately went no contact
(25:05):
because at that point I'm out of the house. I've
got my plan, I've already talked to the lawyer. I
emailed the lawyer that night when I left and I said, okay,
I'm out of the house, because that's all she was
waiting on for me to tell her, and I immediately
went no contact. It's the only most critical step. Yes,
(25:25):
and only only three of my most confident best girlfriends,
who he really doesn't even know because he never paid
attention to who's in my life and who my friends
are that kind of had no clue. Of course, they
were the only three people that knew I was doing
any of this, because again I couldn't trust like I
(25:49):
put it out there, because in the process, you're going
to have those people that the friends that aren't your
friend and that you oh yeah. So I was extremely
tight lipped and I lived this to everybody outside, but
only three. They were literally three people that knew exactly
(26:11):
what I was doing for that month. So I drive
I'm starting to drive south in Tennessee and I the
first sign I saw was for Chattanooga, Tennessee. I love Chattanooga,
and I thought, okay, I can go breathe. I'll go
breathe in Chattanooga, right, So that's what I did. And
(26:35):
at that time, I am now slowly starting to tell
my story to some friends that of course he has
no idea who they are, et cetera. So I have
a really good friend of mine, him and his wife.
I's told that I'm sitting in Chattanooga and this is why.
(26:55):
And they said, hey, we've got a condo and pretty
key Florida and you're only six hours from there. He goes,
He and his wife, they set me up. They gave
me all the access for their condo. It was a
gorgeous condo on the beach. For over a week, it
was just enough time for me to hang out until
(27:18):
I was able to move into my apartment to just breathe,
start to communicate with super close people, and I was
pretty pretty strategic in terms of you know, you know
who you can tell and who you can't. You really do.
You've got to trust that because why that's so important
(27:40):
is I had no idea of the now level of
rage that could have potentially come out of my ex.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Especially when you did something so completely out of character.
He would never have seen that. He would have never
you were so tight looked about it. And that's what
we say, can't threaten. You can't tell them because you're
giving them your playbook.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yep. And they had no idea. So that so that
was the best part too.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That was just.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And then I well, anyway.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
So.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, you so these steps are absolutely critical.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Critical, well and I and I'm I'm so glad it
was the steps I took. I mean, and it's uh,
and it's things that your brain might not be thinking
about because you're so overwhelmed, you're terrified, you're you know,
you've got to go, but it's like, what what am
I going to do? And if you don't take these
methodical steps and actually plan even if you have to
(28:44):
do what you did, pack your car and go, at
least you're not so overwhelmed that and terrified that you
turn around and go back.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
But there was one level of communication that I left
open because it was necessary. Was email. Did he ever
send to say are you okay? Where are you? Are
you safe? Can we talk about anything? Not one? Not
(29:14):
one sentence of any care and concern it was I
was left. I think he was just shocked and surprised.
And one of our really good friends who I was
pretty much better friends with than my ex, but we
the three of us, kind of got together a lot
and watched football. He was a longtime neighbor that we
(29:38):
all knew for like twenty five years, right, So I
then told immediately I called this neighbor and I told
him exactly what happened, because he texted out to say, hey,
we watch in football that Saturday. He's done a Thursday,
so wow, And I told him immediately what was going
At first he was shocked, but then I told him
(30:00):
more and more and more, and he goes, well, I'm
going to still meet him on Saturday for football. And
I had already been gone for two days. He lied
to his face because my ex couldn't admit that I
left him, and he continued to lie to our friends'
(30:22):
faces as it unfolded for months because he couldn't even
look people in the eye to say I left him.
He would say that I was out working and showing homes.
So yeah, so there you go with that. So how
is my life different? The level of peace, y'all is
so much better. I finally feel like I'm able to
(30:44):
live my authentic self now. It's not always easy. You know,
when healing, you're going to have really great days and
then you're going to have really hard days because healing
is hard. It is you're going to have if you
really want to heal, you're going to have to confront
some things. But the payoff on healing is so worth it,
(31:12):
because if I don't, I want nothing of the old
behavior me and I don't want to repeat any old
relationship behaviors on any love of that.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
That's very profound, because we do become someone else just
to survive, just to maintain sanity, And I always say,
we become a shell of who we were when they
met us. And so getting back who you were before
and then being stronger. That is a journey that once
(31:52):
you once you're there, you realize it was so worth it.
All the pain, all the terrors, all the terror, fine nightmares,
it was worth it.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So I went from leaving with clothes after twenty eight
marriage he I didn't take furniture or anything. And so
my first year, I swear, I feel like, you know,
I just kind of ran on adrenaline, right, I got
set up and I had these outpour of blessings in
my life, people genuinely helping and and but now I
(32:26):
am over a year of being completely out. I have
purchased my own condo. I am now living within my
own home, and I now I for the first time,
I feel like I can get super grounded because now
I feel like I have a home and I'm not
having to I'm not running as much like your own.
(32:52):
This amazing group of people as well, and you're giving
them and we can share our encouragement and our hope
and pray, you know, with one another, and feed our
stories to say if I can do this, you can too,
and I, you know, and everyone's at different places within
(33:12):
the journey. So it's just powerful.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It's so much It's so much better to do that
journey with a supportive group than completely alone, because not
being in a narcissistic relationship is so isolating, it is very,
very isolating.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
So having a.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Supportive group, that's the reason we started the private Facebook
group is so people could go and ask questions, then
to cry whatever they needed to do. And people that
understood actually are listening, because a narcissist will not listen.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
They don't care, they don't they And that was the
thing that was the most the biggest aha revealing moment
is that when I laughed, there were so many little
like remember we were cross referencing phone numbers and oh yes,
and I was just putting so many little like wow,
(34:11):
like he had this total private life that like. So
the scary thing was is that I look back and
I was like, Holy Holly, Like, who was this man
that I just gave almost thirty years in my life to.
It was a little scary, I think.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yes, And and just doing it without one ounce of remorse. Yeah,
and just thinking, you know, you're you're the little trophy wife.
You're making the family look good, the neighbors, keeping that image,
only hiding who he really was from everyone, and a
lot of it. I remember us discovering and he was
(34:51):
hiding definitely a lot from you. And that's really that's
really sad. But when God starts taking those blinders off,
it does make the road.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
It's still hard. It's hard when you're pulling you along.
You know when you're ready and you say yes to
your faith. But now I can really feel like I
can make actionable steps in the way and direction of
where God wants me to go. And I don't have
(35:22):
to live with this internal quiet like, Okay, I hear
you God, but I can't do that. Really feel like
I can live this life with a with a scene
testimony that I I just sit there and I go,
I can't make this up. I can't make up and
(35:44):
I couldn't have planned how the last year. Just know
that there's resources gray Rock, that narcissist. Yes, yes, that's
one of our most anything anymore like, and just start
to take your life back one moment, one small step
(36:05):
at a time. And there's people professionally like you and
John and then those of us who are connecting that
are sitting here with our hands wide open saying we
got you, we get you, yeah, yeah, And The best
thing is you can't always explain narcissism to those that
(36:26):
don't understand it. No, you can't. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
You're right because I've had so many clients tell me
that they were in therapy and believe me, I have
all the respect in the world for counselors and license theory,
but that years of that just not understanding what it
feels like. And you know, and I guess that's why
I could be so relatable, is because I know what
it feels like, and what you say doesn't doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I'm not trying to blame it on something else because
we didn't cause this. We didn't create that, we didn't
create that personality disorder. We just we just chose the
wrong person who we just weren't We weren't really aware
of who they were because they weren't that person right.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
The persons right, And you've got to give yourself grace.
We're smart women. I'm a smart, educated, smart woman. I've
got a friend of mine that is an obgyn dector
that is now divorcing a narcissic. Jesus, we say this
all time. We're smart, smart women, But yet so you've
(37:34):
got to give yourself grace of the forgiveness to be like, why,
I mean, why did I stay for twenty eight years?
There was a lot of reasons, but you know what,
here's the one thing my daughter told me is that
if you left any sooner, we wouldn't have had that
we don't we wouldn't have the relationship that we have now.
And that really kind of took the guilt because I
(37:56):
carried some guilt knowing that I'm sure in this, yes,
and also not doing anything about the suffering that my
children were suffering with. So I think that's something that
no matter who you are, we're smart individuals. We're made
(38:20):
for more, yes, and first not to but we are
daughters of the king. Like there's so much about each
and every one of us that we have to acknowledge that.
And so just be kind to yourself and not to
beat yourself up on that perspective, because there's a lot
to unravel when we when we understand of where we
(38:46):
were and how we were caught in that narcissistic web.
It's just awful, but there's so much freedom.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, And I love the way you said that, because
you do have to give yourself grace and you do
have to go through that grieving process just to get
to the other side.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Well, you know, we love you, We love you to death.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I love you, guys, and we're so so, so so
proud of you. So would you recommend us to anyone
that is going through the.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Same Absolutely, I mean you guys, not only you Melissa,
but John understands it too. So what a powerhouse couple
that you guys can give back, right And also just
to understand that it's not just an it's a male dog.
Like it goes, there's wind, it goes both ways. And
(39:39):
then I think, but in the midst of our fears
of being trapped in it, like your playbook and your
to do list, every step is critical, critical. And I
will also say that you personally just create a safe
(40:00):
place to be vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Because because that's the vulnerability, we've never been able to
allow ourselves within that relationship be tr So you've got
to create a level of trust somewhere somehow with somebody.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Gray, rock them, no contact them, make a preparation plan
and just get out.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Absolutely, and you're living proof of that. You are absolutely
living proof. And gosh, we could not be more happy
for you.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
I mean, and we're so excited that you're a first guest.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
We love it. We love it because it's been literally
over a.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Year and I said, I had you know, I.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Wanted you to be our first guest because we are
so proud of you and we love what you're doing now.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
And thank you for sharing your story.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
And letting people know that what we do here at
Victim to Warrior works.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Living the one thousand percent works well.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Thank you, thank you, Thank you, Chris. We appreciate it,
and we'd love to.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Have you back again. Absolutely, all right, all right, love
you girl, Thanks, love you guys too.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Bye bye Wow, Okay that you know what it just
I can just feel it in my chest. It's just
amazing and the bravery, the courage. You can do this.
You can absolutely do this. It doesn't matter if you
don't think you have the means financially. There are ways
(41:34):
that you can start methodically planning your exit strategy. And
we'd love for you to take a look at our
twelve critical Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
We really want to talk about that because that's that's
what our What she was able to do was go
through the twelve critical steps methodically and set them all
up so that when that day came, she was able
to leave and leave safely, which is huge, but also
to not have to go back.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
And so because she blocked him, she absolutely blocked him.
And you know what, and that was one of the
most difficult things for her because when she and I
talked about it after she left, kind of working through
the aftermath because it mentally, it does challenge you because
you're all of a sudden alone now, and you haven't
(42:21):
had control of the money, and you're overwhelmed, and you're
scared and it's lonely. All of those things our natural
emotions that come with finally breaking free. But those are
the things that we can work through. Those are the
things that you can work through and get past it.
But you are not in a desperate situation where you
(42:43):
return to that abuser because you're so overwhelmed. You don't
have to think about a roof over your head and
food in your stomach. You have methodically planned that. So
when you leave, you are now on your healing journey.
That is a shut book.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, so let's talk about that. The twelve critical steps
to take before you leave recorded webinar. Now, if you
go to our way I'm gonna put the link into
description for it so you can go to that page
on our website and see everything that's included. It's really
really amazing. And you know, I always say both Melissa
and I did not have this information when Westake. I
(43:20):
was dumbinough and that's.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Where our programs.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, I was dumb enough to say, hey, I don't
think this is working. We need to get a divorce.
And I let her know what I wanted to do. Well,
a couple of days, I come home from the office
and my house is completely empty. She had taken everything
out of my house and used my credit cards to
(43:43):
pay for the movers and also set up accounts in
my name. She had all my information, so he was
able to do that because my credit wasn't frozen. So
I made every mistake you could possibly make.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
When a marriage is not working, you're both in those
you think you just don't think someone is going to
do that kind of evil behavior, which both of us.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, and I know you went through a little hell
because she also told her.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, and that's honestly, John says that that's when the
war begins. When you tell them, that's when the war begins.
So don't tell them until you have all.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Of your ducks, and if you haven't left yet, don't
tell them. You want to do everything. And I always
say about this twelve critical steps is it's almost like,
you know, think about when you're leaving for a trip tomorrow.
You have your whole checklist of everything you need to do.
Pick up your dry clean you put the dogs in
the kennel, get your passport, what time you have to
leave for the airport. You don't check check, check, check, check,
same thing here. You're leaving for good, and so you
(44:46):
want to make sure that you have all of these things.
You're gonna love this recorded webinar because I think it
brings the anxiety level down a lot too. If you
haven't left yet, you just follow the checklist, follow the checklists,
and it's going to take some time to get all
your a row. But then when you leave, you can
leave confidently knowing that you've got everything taken care of.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
And you're prepared. When you go and talk to an
attorney who understands a narcissistic behavior, and you're not so
overwhelmed that you don't know what to do. You are
now thinking clearly because you do have a plan of action,
and you do have somebody that's going to hold your
hand through the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
So I want Melissa to tell her story real quickly.
I'm kind of she doesn't know I'm doing this or
asking this question. But what did your narcissists say when
you told him to move out?
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Oh my gosh, I remember it to this day. It
was my house. I bought it, I was paying all
the expenses. He was paying nothing, not a penny. And
it was so miserable, and it was so horrific that
I just, after a huge fight, standing in the middle
of our four yer, I said, I want a divorce.
And all of a sudden, where he was, you know,
(46:00):
telling me we could work things out, you know, we'll
go to counseling. That changed in a second, and that
face expression turned evil and he started laughing, laughing. He
started laughing at me, and he said, no problem, pack
your bags and get out, pack my bags and get
out of my own house. That's what he said to me.
(46:20):
And he goes, I don't want a divorce, I'm not leaving,
and he walked away, and I swear I was so stunned.
I couldn't I could not believe it, and that is
when the war started.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
But he he also told you that you were going
to have to keep him to life that he had
become accustomed to.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Oh, that's right. He did say that to me, he goes,
he goes, Okay, no problem. And when he told me
to get out of my own house, he said, but
just understand, you will keep me in the life that
I have become accustomed to, which was the life that
I right after being married.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
So oh, so that leads me to this. If you
haven't seen our series on our social media challenge, Yeah,
Don't Believe Your Narks Lies. We have a multi series,
multi post series on different examples of what narcissist lives
look like. If you're still in the relationship and still
dealing with it, yeah, and if you if you've left
(47:13):
and you're gone, it might be fun to kind of
watch them again and say, oh my god, he said
the exact same thing, or she said this to me.
So glad I'm out of that. So please go to
any one of our channels TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, or right
here on YouTube. We have shorts also, and you can
find the series Don't Believe Your Nark slides. So, you
(47:34):
know what, I'm really grateful that we went into this
today and really talked about this. You know, most of
what we talk about is after you've left, or helping
you to get through divorce or co parenting or recovery,
you know, things like that, but it's so important to
really talk about for the folks that are still in
it and are still struggling, you know, how do.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
They get out and that you have hope and do it? Yeah,
And that's why how blak, That's why we want That's
why we were so happy to bring our guest on
is because we wanted you to hear her story. So
you know, it can be it can work, Yeah, it
can It could be done right. Yeah. So we we
appreciate you guys tuning in.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
If you have, you subscribe, and please like this podcast
and give.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Us give us your comments. You know, what did you like,
what you did like? What would you like to see?
This is all about you and we want to make
sure we are bringing you content that is helpful.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, and we have one last thing if you have
any questions for us, just I'm going to put this
in the description as well. Questions at the v twow
dot com uh to send any questions to us, will
we get glad to get back to them, or we
might feature those questions on our next podcast. So definitely
do that, and also please check out our website vv
(48:52):
twow dot com. I'm gonna put that link in the
description as well.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
We've got tons of resources for anyone on this journey
and there are millions of people on it, so you're
not alone. You can always join our private anonymous Facebook group.
We'll also put that in the description below. The last
podcast we had, we had I think forty one people
who join are already growing community of warriors, and it's
(49:15):
completely private and anonymous. It's a safe place for you
to talk about your situation, get advice, and most of all,
get support and know that you are not alone because
we have people from all over the world in our
private Facebook group. So absolutely definitely consider joining it. But
thank you so much for tuning in, thank you for
following us, and we look forward to seeing you on
our next podcast.
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