Nerd Sesh - The Boston Celtics are the 2024 NBA Champions - The Volume

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. No, oh my god, how could he do that? No,
don't watch what Charles Darwin.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
The nerves is where it's at. Welcome everybody back into
Nerd Sash as always, I'm Carson Rever and alongside the
Isgan Canada, and we have a new NBA champion, the
Boston Celtics, Your Boston Celtics, Logan. Those boys up north
do you love oh so much? Have officially put away

(00:41):
the Dallas Maverickson five. Not a surprising outcome at all
in this game considering how things had been going, but
a dominant showing from the Celtics. Nonetheless, Logan. They now
finished this season sixty four wins in the regular season,
sixteen and three in the playoffs, putting them in some
rare historic company there in terms of that end and dominance.
When you think of this Boston Celtics team, what do

(01:04):
you define them in this championship run and in this series?

Speaker 1 (01:09):
I define that is a this is a historical team.
You lean into it a little bit, Carson, But that's
kind of my big takeaway from this series is just
how great this basketball team is and how different this
title is and how we should view it from previous
winners one. Boston finally gets a big monkey off their back. Man.
We talked about this a lot leading up to the

(01:30):
to the finals. Six conference finals in eight years, you know,
two NBA Finals appearances in three years. This is a
team that has consistently been hitting their head on the
ceiling over and over again. Man just can't break through,
and they finally get it done. But that's kind of
the emphasis to me, is that it's the team getting
this done. I don't think that we're crowning a new
best player in the world, so to speak, the way

(01:52):
you know, former titles. You know, I just I want
to clear that out of the way, because I think
that's a lot of the way a lot of casual
NBA is going to be discussed as all Tatum's about.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
I really don't think we're gonna see that Jason Tatum
shot what like thirty eight percent from the field in
this series thirty.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Nine, Yeah, nine. Think we've gotten that talk, but I
think we got to emphasize that, right. Jokic has his run,
Giannis has his run a couple of years back, you know,
Kawhi has his run. This to me is different. This
is an all time team and you can clown them
for their struggles in Game four. You can clown them
for struggling with easy opponents in the Eastern Conference. I
sure did all throughout the playoffs. But they go sixteen

(02:30):
to three during the playoffs, and as you mentioned, Carson,
they are just the tenth team in NBA history to
lose three or less games and a playoff run en
route to a title. They had the tied third highest
net rating in all of NBA history. And I think
it's important that you also can textualize this that they
do this largely without Christoph Sporzingis. Did they need him
most of the way. No, They based a lot of

(02:52):
inferior competition, frankly in the Eastern Conference. But they do
it without him. That makes this run all the more impressive.
And I think the area you have to look at
most is Boston's defense throughout. Man, if it was Tatum
and Jalen Brown on the court, if Porzingis was healthy,
like this is a great all time defense. Man. They
held Dallas eight points below their regular season offensive raiding

(03:13):
in the NBA Finals and offensive rating south of one
ten for Dallas. I mean, that's really impressive considering they
have one of the greatest offensive players in NBA history,
and Luka Doncic, And that's where I largely credit this team.
Man for consistently making life hard on Luca and Kyrie,
for game planning around Dallas's role players to force them
to eat to beat. You, for consistent effort on the glass, Man,

(03:36):
for consistent hustle and energy from everybody down the roster.
That's my big takeaway from this man. This is an
all time defense. I think this is an all time
basketball team, and we are not crowning a new superstar,
a new face of the NBA, so to speak. But
this is the culmination of a team that is worked
really hard to get here and hit their head on
the ceiling a lot in working up to this moment, man,

(03:58):
and it's the crowning of a new NBA juggernaut my opinion. Man,
I know a lot of people are gonna push back.
All their path was really easy, all they faced inferior
competition every single round. I do think this is an
all time team, and maybe not top ten all time,
but top fifteen, top twenty, top twenty five. I think
you can make an argument and yeah, they're historically great, man.
That's the takeaway from this team, this is a historically

(04:21):
great team from start to finish. Man Boston dominated.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
And the talent there has never been in question. We've
said it multiple times. When you're talking about five top
fifty dudes on the same team, you gotta go back
close to forty years when you're talking about the late
eighties Lakers and then the eighty three six Ers, when
you're seeing that sort of talent in terms of a
complete starting five on one team, and even down one
of those guys with kp out for most of the

(04:46):
series and clearly very hobbled tonight when he did play,
Al Horford steps up and plays a phenomenal basketball series.
So you mentioned the rare company that they join. Since
the playoffs expand into the full four rounds, here are
all the champions lose three games of fewer. The eighty
six Celtics top three team of all time, the eighty
seven Lakers, the best iteration ever of that team, definitely

(05:07):
a top ten team of all time, The eighty nine
Pistons right on the fringe of top ten, I would say,
top twelve team of all time. The ninety one Bulls,
the most dominant playoff version that we ever saw on
the Michael Jordan era, the ninety six Bulls, who a
lot of people will tell you is the greatest team
of all time, the ninety nine Spurs shout out to them,
the one Lakers who had the single most dominant postseason

(05:29):
that we've seen outside of maybe the seventy one Bucks.
They actually had the best point differential in the playoffs.
And then the twenty seventeen Warriors, who I would probably
say are the best team of all time. It's them,
and then it's the nineteen ninety six Bulls just a
hair behind. So that's the company therein and even if
you push it a little bit further back to when
you're just looking at three full rounds, well, then you

(05:49):
have joining that the eighty three six Ers utterly dominant
postseason team, the eighty two Lakers, the seventy two Lakers
in the seventy one Bucks, the seventy two Lakers and
seventy one Bucks also both being clearly top ten teams
of all times. So when you pair that with the
regular season resume, there is context to be applied. This
was not a difficult postseason path, but nevertheless, this was

(06:10):
an overwhelmingly talented team that was exceptionally complete on both
sides of the ball, and I think you hit on
the key point logan. Their consistent floor was provided by
that defensive identity. Because the Celtics are oozing with offensive
talent and they actually posted the highest regular season offensive
rating we've ever seen this year. But the staple of

(06:30):
their success, especially in this series, was their ability to
limit this Dallas offense, to take away all of the
easy lobs that we had seen because of their ability
to switch everything and keep the bigs from getting behind
you on the role, to force Luke and Kyrie both
to consistently score in single coverage against a bunch of
great defenders. There was not a weak point on the

(06:50):
floor in this series. You're talking about trying to hunt
Derek White, an all defense guard. That's how sound this
personnel was, especially in that starting five because Al Horford
played out of his mind defensively in this series. You're
not getting easy corner threes because you're not overhelping on
these dudes. And even when they were facing overwhelmingly single coverage,

(07:11):
like Kyrie Lucap both struggled as scorers compared to their average.
They were both below their normal volume and efficiency, and
the whole game plan is to make them beat you
as scores, take away their playmaking impacts. So when you
can take a chunk out of them in both those
aspects and you can test at times these very suspect
role players with wide open above the break threes and

(07:31):
they don't punish you. It was just phenomenal game plan.
It was phenomenal execution. And they have phenomenal defensive talent,
so as much as anything that is the MVP of
this series for Boston, as is their aggregate offensive talent.
You can't talk about this team, you can't talk about
this run. You can't talk about this series without Drew Holliday,
his overwhelming defensive value, his exceptional rebounding, his all around

(07:53):
versatile offensive impact, the dynamic three point shooting of Derek White,
and his valuable playmaking and defense. But I do want
to give props in this specific game to Jason Tatum
Logan because one of the stories of this series has
just been him going out there and doing everything butt
scoring at a high level, enabling their defensive scheme because
he can guard fives, playmaking as well as we've ever seen.

(08:15):
But the shot had just been abysmal through four games
of this series. He came out in this one and
he actually started ice cold, but that second quarter. He
ends the first half playing by far his best offensive
half that we saw throughout this series and completely out
playing Luca. In the first half of this game, which
ultimately really was this basketball game, it was kind of

(08:36):
over once Peyton Pritchard hits that signature half court shot
of his. That man just unbelievable at those shots. But
from the jump, like Tatum is just generating good offense.
He's running that inverted pick and roll with Drew Holliday
as the screener. He's making the right reads. I thought
the consistently he was hitting the necessary kickout passes, finding
dudes in the dunker spot, pushing in transition selectively, all

(08:56):
the stuff that he's been doing so well creating for
others in this series. And then after he did start
cold as a shooter, he started getting to that rim.
He was very aggressive, really nice drive on Maxic Kleiba,
who guarded him well, beat Derek Lively off the bounce,
and so in a lot of ways, this first half
kind of personified the areas of improvement that we've seen
from Jason Tatum from this year compared to previous seasons,

(09:19):
the playmaking growth I think has been very real. This series,
to me, is the best playmaking series we've ever seen
from Jason Tatum, and he had some awesome moments in
that twenty twenty two run. He also had stretches where
he was just turning the ball over way too much.
Like he was much more consistent in this run and
particularly in this series. He had a lot of turnovers
in Game one, but created so many great shots for
his teammates. And then the added strength, the added physicality

(09:42):
as a driver. We've heard that he's put on like
twenty pounds of muscle from last year. He struggled as
a finisher overall in this series, but in this game
I thought that he was pretty darn good there. He
still missed a couple of chip shots around the rim,
but for the most part when things were sort of
going south for him as a score because the jump
shot was off, as it was throughout this entire series
and really the entire postseason, he used his physicality, as

(10:05):
the people would say, he remembered that he's six '
nine and that was really really essential. In the first
half of this game, and then he went quiet in
the third. But it's okay, your team is too good.
You built too much of a margin. And then he
had that little spurt in the fourth quarter. I guess
you could credit him with sort of closing the door
like that game was over. I almost felt a little
bit weird watching that because I was like, are he

(10:25):
and Jalen kinda stat pad in the fourth quarter? Like
are they thinking about the finals MVP? Because we got
a very assertive Jason Tatum. Once the game was basically over,
I will say, but hey, he was cooking in that
little stretch. So this was a very rough scoring series
for him. Like that is apparent with the volume, that
is a parent with the efficiency. That was the case
in every game except for this one. Game three. He

(10:46):
had a good first half, but then he really really
struggled in that second half, struggled in fourth quarters overall
outside of tonight, but he consistently found multiple ways to
impact the game. That doesn't change who Jason Tatum is.
As you say, if you want to put him in
best player in the world conversations, you're out of your
goddamn mine. Like there is a completely different level of
offensive consistency that you are getting from those absolute tier

(11:08):
one guys, that just puts them on a different level.
If you want to compare Jason Tatum and Nicolo Jokic,
I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.
There is not even close to the level of two
way gap that would be necessary to offset the offensive
gap between in my opinion, maybe the best offensive player
ever and an exceptionally inconsistent superstar in Jason Tatum. But again,

(11:28):
I don't think people are doing that. I still don't
think he's top five. But the concern with Tatum, as
you're number one, was always okay, if we need him
to rise to that top five level consistently, to go
toe to toe with the absolute best in the world offensively,
can he do that? Because most champions throughout me history,
almost all of them really have needed that. Boston is

(11:49):
so great that they didn't need that, and Tatum played
like a top ten player. I believe he is a
top ten player, but the offensive consistency was something that
a lot of teams couldn't have overcome from their number
one guy. This is just a different kind of situation,
and that's where I agree with you. Completely. This is
about the Boston Celtics. The story of this team is
one of the most talented and complete basketball teams. It's

(12:12):
not about the guy, as it has been with some
other recent champions and a bunch of champions throughout NBA history.
But that does raise an interesting question, which is logan
to you. I don't believe they've announced this yet. I'll
check in a second. Who is the Finals MVP?

Speaker 1 (12:29):
I think it's a question of the series man, and
am I crazy for wanting to give it to Drew Holliday? Like?
Am I out of my gord for that? Carson?

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, I wouldn't say that you're out of your gord.
I wouldn't say you're off your rocker. However, I just
would disagree with it.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Here's why this is so tough, right, I think overall impact,
if we're gonna give it to somebody, I think Jason
Tatum was probably the most impactful Celtic on the court
across five games. The shooting numbers are terrible. That's why
I don't want to give it to Tatum. I'm also
biased against Jason Tatum. If you did not realize at
the start of this episode, Carson was saying that facetiously,

(13:03):
I do not like the Boston Celtics. I have not
liked the Boston Celtics. I wear a beanie on here
sometimes I wear it quite ironically. Tatum gives you twenty
two points on thirty nine percent from the field, twenty
six percent from deep, fifty one percent true shooting. So
he's got a staying on his resume. Jayalen Brown was
not consistent in this basketball game. He took a lot

(13:23):
of boneheaded threes, just pull up threes where I'm like,
can we move the ball?

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Guys? Can we kick the rock out?

Speaker 1 (13:30):
He gives you twenty one points on fifty four percent
true shooting. Okay, and Holiday, who I don't want Holiday's
efforts in this game to get lost because I thought he,
arguably with Tatum, might have been the best player on
the floor in this game. His slip and go screen
stuff with Luca early was genius. And there are a
lot of possessions where Luca has matched up with Drew

(13:51):
and Drew knows that Luca has fallen asleep on defense.
It just gets to the right spot where he needs
to be. If it's out of the short role, getting
to the paint if it's in the dunker spot. Holliday
was star off ball tonight, and I think the aggregate
contributions you get with him on the glass, with him playmaking,
gives him a compelling case. I don't think any of

(14:11):
these guys have a perfect case for Finals MVP, and
that's why makes it. I think you could argue Jylen
Brown with what he gave you in transition, what he
gave you consistently defensively on Luka Doncic, but again you
get some boneheaded decision making, some carelessness with the rock
at Tatum you get the scoring, and then Drew Holliday
you just don't have the numbers. So, in a roundabout way,

(14:31):
I've kind of talked myself into Jason Tatum, I guess
because of overall impact, defense, rebounding, playmaking, which begs a
question to me to our basketball historian on the stage
with his Carson, this is like the ugliest scoring Finals
run from a Finals MVP. Ever, like I have talked
myself somehow, coming into this game, I was leaning Jalen Brown,

(14:54):
but it also required a great offensive Jaylen Brown game,
which we didn't get tonight. And so, and this is
back to back Knights or back to back games. Excuse me,
where it's two poor Jaln Brown offensive performances, which has
led me to Jason Tatum. So do you think it's
Jason Tatum? And do you think this is like the
worst scoring performance we've ever seen from a Finals MVP

(15:17):
outside of maybe a Guadala.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
So that's kind of the question. It's are we talking
about volume scoring that was inefficient because obviously we have
just seen some straight up role players win this award,
Andre Guidala being an example, Kawhi Leonard being an example.
In twenty fourteen, Wes Unzelt was not a role player,
but he was not scoring the basketball. He was out
of nine points per game in that series. Cornbread. He

(15:43):
was getting buckets in that series, but he's not scoring
at like superstar volume. When you're thinking about dudes who
were really inefficient in a volume scoring role, the first
two comes to mind to me is Tim Duncan in
two thousand and five, And there's a decent amount of
people who think that should have actually been Manu's Finals
MVP because Manu was much more efficient. He was just

(16:04):
the better offensive player overall. But Datum is joining some
rough scoring companies since two thousand. This would be the
sixth lowest points per game by a Finals MVP. It
would be the second worst true shooting percentage, clearing only
Duncan and considering era. I think it might actually be
the worst if you adjusted to league average. But logan
I checked. Jalen Brown has been announced as Finals MVP,

(16:28):
which is really interesting. I ultimately would have given it
to Tatum like you, I was tempted to consider the
Drew case for effort plays, rebounding efficiency, just such a
winning basketball player. But I don't like viewing Finals MVP
in that way. I don't like viewing it as who
overachieved the most, who did the most winning things on
the margin, because that's how you get an Andre Guodala.

(16:49):
Like I do, think it should be the best most
impactful player in that series. I think Drew's limitations creating
for himself ultimately take him out of that conversation, even
though he's not that far off. Like it's not insane
to make a Drew case, but I wouldn't agree with it.
So you laid out the numbers, comp Tatum gives you
twenty two, eight and seven on fifty point five percent

(17:10):
true shooting, and he did do a little bit of
late game stat padding in this one, But I just
think the efficiency gap between him and Jalen closed by
enough overall to where I would prefer the value of
everything that he did at such a high level in
this series. I thought his playmaking was legitimately awesome. He
was consistently getting by his man and creating great shots

(17:31):
for his teammates, like a number of great shots, even
more so maybe than the raw assist number would reflect
in terms of the gap between him and Jalen as playmakers.
I think Jalen was better in terms of pure on
ball defense with what he did on Luca. I thought
that he really did quite well in that matchup. But
Tatum's rebounding value, his defensive versatility, what that enabled schematically

(17:57):
again with him guarding centers and switching everything, I would
i'd argue was at least as valuable and impactful overall.
And as you mentioned, I really did not like jalen
shot selection in these last two games. I thought he
forced a lot of bad pull up jumpers and Tatum
took some shots that I didn't like, Like there were
stretches where I didn't love his shot selection, but overall
he mostly either missed good looks or he was creating

(18:19):
good looks for his teammates. He really struggled as a
jump shooter. So I'm not pissed with Jalen getting it,
because I do get those scoring issues for Tatum, but
I didn't feel like his process was better. I did
feel like the attention that he demanded was valuable and
was more significant than Jalen. So I did feel like
he was the most impactful player overall in this series.

(18:40):
But this wasn't gonna look like your typical finals MVP
either way. I mentioned that Tatum would have been in
rough company in terms of scoring volume, man efficiency. Jalen
is pretty much in that same realm. It was never
about the guy. It was always going to be about
this team's aggregate talent. And if you just look at
the course of these finals, in each of their wins logo,

(19:00):
a different Celtic was the best player. KP was their
best player in game one, Drew was their best player
in Game two, Jalen was their best player in Game three,
Jason Tatum was their best player in Game five. I
can't remember the last time that that happened. Four different
dudes being the guy for you in each of your wins.
But with this team, it's not the least bit surprising
that any one of these dudes could step up and

(19:22):
be the hero on any given night. Drew with incredibly
effective off ball scoring and rebounding in Game two, kp
with just that dominant mismatchtacking and rim protection in Game one.
Jalen Brown gives you twenty four points in the second
half of Game three, he's nails as a shot maker,
and tonight it's Jason Tatum, who is ultimately your most
consistent source of offense. That just feels very appropriate to me.

(19:44):
So this is undeniably the weakest Finals MVP since Andre
Guadall in twenty fifteen. And it's better than that because
Jalen Brown does have a higher volume role offensively, but
you compare it, I mean, since then we are looking
at Jokic all time series, Steph Yannis like these are dominant,
dominant final series. Yannis out of those three had the

(20:06):
best pure finals. I think they're all probably in the
top fifteen to twenty individual final series. We've seen Lebron
Kawhi Katie back to back. Lebron in twenty sixteen, Like
those are all time individual performances for the most part
and at the very least, like, yeah, that dude played
like a top three player in the world in that series.
Just not like that this year. And that's okay.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
I think it does bring up another interesting question with
Jacalen Brown, and I do want to give him some
props too. I don't want to just completely dismiss his case,
because I do think it was close. And like I said,
coming into game four, if they had swept, really I
thought it was gonna be Jaylen Brown's I thought even.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
I thought it was pretty clear after three, like Tatum
still had the all around impact edge when you're looking
at everything butt scoring, but the gap purely as scorers
and the efficiency gap at that point was too big.
It's really Jalen really struggling these last two games. Tatum
really stepping up in Game five that to me offset
the margin that Jalen had as a scorer.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
I agree, And then you know, Brown does have the
moments though, and that's the one area where I give
him over Tatum is like we kept waiting all series
long for like Tatum to wake up out of this
spell he was in and just catch you know fire
as a jump shooter. Right. I've been very critical of
Jason Tatum, but I was really surprised at how much
his jumper you know was off in these playoffs entirely.

(21:31):
Like there wasn't ever really a series or damn here
a game in this you know, entire run where I
was like, all right, man, you know Tatum looks like
old Tatum. Right, this is a guy who dropped fifty
points in a playoff game one time. That's just not
you know something, you can do it, yeah twice, damn
it like you knew it once. That's and we never
got like that version of Jason Tatum at all in

(21:52):
these playoffs. And I think if he has one of
those games, maybe has a better case. But Brown has
the steals and trans position and all of those points.
And that's another valuable aspect of this too is Brown
got a lot of easy stuff in Transition that swung
games Man and has all those monster dunks. So I'm
not mad at him, man. Like I said, I think

(22:12):
three J's had a real chance at this. If it
was Jyalen, if it was Jason, if it was Drew,
I would hear an argument for any of them. The
question I'm gonna pose to you, Carson, because I think
conversations make it a little bit out of hand. After this,
Jalen Brown is better than Jason Tatum or so, and
so I'm not going to entertain that. What I will
entertain is is how high? And you know we're going

(22:33):
to balance out his you know his struggles and you
know where he succeeded. How do you think Jaylen Brown
climbed with this playoff run? With his finals run? Does
it drastically change or view of him as a player
and where he ranks among like the league's best? Is
he has he climbed up into a new you know,
an upper echelon to you as a player with this, I.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Think he's somewhere around the twentieth best player in basketball.
I think there is a year of fourteen guys that
you really could not argue him above. And I think
of that tier probably ends with like the Anthony Davis,
Devin Booker, Anthony Edwards, depending on where you have Jayleen

(23:15):
run some sort of range. Yeah, like those guys, I
just think what they're capable of doing as number ones
is pretty clearly on a different level. After that, I
would still take Jimmy over Jalen Brown. I did see
that debate. I do think that the playmaking edge for
Jimmy to me makes him a more consistent number one.
And I think defensively, in terms of impact, what you're

(23:36):
getting is very similar. It's not a big old margin there.
Then you have sort of like the unilateral big time
offensive engines with your Tyres Halliburtons, who I do think
I would prefer as a number one.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Now.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Jalen is an awesome number two, especially in this role.
Donovan Mitchell, with how dynamic he is offensively, again, I
would prefer as a number one. I do think that
Kyrie is in this conversation. Jalen clearly outplayed him in
this series. So maybe because of the consistency defensively the
physical advantages, you would give him the edge. Darren Fox

(24:11):
has to be in there, like there's a lot of
the sort of dynamic smaller guards who are clearly better
offensive players. But the question is does Jalen's defensive impact
offset that. I think that he's in conversations with all
of these guys, but I would have him around twenty.
I do not think he's a top fifteen player.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, I think I agree with all those guys. Mitchell
has elevated himself into a new tier after this run,
and not just over him, Like I'm I'm revisiting conversations
we even had with as a tangent, but like even
we talked with Hoop Venu a while back, I remember
that deep book versus like Donovan Mitchell and even that.
I think Mitchell proved himself a lot in this playoff run,

(24:53):
and I think he's definitely over him. What about a
guy like the only other guy that I was thinking
about that you didn't mention was Trey Young. Yeah, and
that one's yeah, But I think that Brown has to
be stamped as that kind of guy in his physical
imposition and his defense and his transition. He's got a
lot of great traits that just translate to winning basketball,

(25:14):
and the Celtics can't get it done without him. Like,
I just don't want to elevate him into you know,
because we'll look at the resume and we'll go away.
He's got finals MVP of this great team. I just
don't want to elevate him into conversations where he doesn't
really belong. I still don't really think Brown's a number one.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
But damn, he is like the.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Best number two. You could ask one. Yeah, like he is,
he's so great in this role. But I think I
agree with you, man. I think top twenty five stamped
and then you can make arguments for top twenty Brown
is Brown workeding way and he was consistent in these
playoffs too. Do you think Brown was consistently Boston's best
players who had the playoff run too?

Speaker 2 (25:53):
No, I think that he was their best scorer overall.
I still would give Tatum and Edge as their best
player throughout this overall run because of the playmaking. And
I do think he was a more impactful overall defensive player,
including when you look at what he does on the glass.
But this was a really awesome Jalen Ron and honestly
the finals was not the best of it because about

(26:13):
this series ended. But like his efficiency overall, he posts
a true shooting percentage of fifty nine. He's been a
pretty average efficiency scorer in the regular season. He was
better than that, and that's more impressive because it was
the playoffs and his three point shot kind of left
him towards the home stretch of this series. But still,
his physicality, I mean he was amazing finishing around the rim, playmaking.

(26:35):
He's still not a plus there overall, but this series
was some of the best that we've seen from him
in a high stakes scenario. He absolutely improved there. Defensively,
he talks about making his own all defense case. I
don't think that he's quite there, but I do think
he's improved as an all ball defender. I think he's
improved his attentiveness away from the ball, which historically has
been the biggest issue with him. And I do think

(26:57):
he is like at that sub ball defense level. I
think he's a very good defender. So he's an awesome
basketball player and I love the guy. Dude. I've said
it before, but he's a col Bet. There's not a
lot of good col Bears in the NBA these days.
Logan and I had season tickets to watch Dalen Brown,
so I saw him at least ten times in person
that year. And sometimes I feel like people overplay the

(27:20):
player development angle with him. Celtics fans, I don't think
always have an accurate gauge of their own struggles. I
saw somebody call him like one of the greatest player
development stories in NBA history. It's like he was the
third overall pick who turned into a really really good
basketball player. I think we've seen crazier stuff than that
over the years, but legitimately, at Cal, he was an incredible,

(27:41):
incredible raw athlete. The speed, the power, the frame, all
of that was very, very obvious. His ball handling was shit,
his shooting was not nearly good enough. Like, they really
did take an exceptional raw athlete, and of course he
deserves a bunch of credit for this, as does the
Celtics organiz. Turned him into a pretty polished score an

(28:02):
improved all around player. Shout out Jalen Brown, dude, Like,
I am super happy for him having this moment, and
compared to expectations, there's no question that he played better
than Jason Tatum, Like just in terms of if you
were to grade them on their own scale, Jalen would
great higher for this series than Jason Tatum for sure.
But I do want to give more prompts just to

(28:23):
this collective team. Derek White in this series gives you
fourteen to five and three with two point two stocks
on fifty nine percent true shooting. Drew in the finals
fourteen and a half, seven and a half and four
on sixty two percent true shooting Al Horford. It's not
going to show up as much on the stat sheet,
but seven six and three on sixty eight percent true shooting,
awesome efficiency, some nice playmaking moments, and defensively out of

(28:46):
this world. Through the first three games, I believe that
Luke and Kyrie were combining to shoot twenty seven percent
with him as their primary defender, and that was with
him taking on a bunch of those possessions like they
could never target him. In fact, he was the best
defender on both of them, at least up to that
point in this series. I haven't checked the number since then,
and the effort plays that you get from all those guys. Tonight, Logan,

(29:07):
A big part of Game four was just the Celtics
came out flat. Dallas did a lot really well, Boston
did a lot poorly. The shooting variants very much flipped
against the Celtics in that game, but they just weren't
quicker to the ball, They weren't getting the fifty to
fifty balls, they weren't hustling on the glass. This game,
you get thirteen offensive rebounds from Drew Whitehauser and Hornford combined,

(29:29):
and specifically the activity of those guards and wings rebounding
from the perimeter, crashing from the corner. Just using their
quickness to get to those balls was massive. And then
you have some incredible high effort defensive plays. Derek White
blocks Derek Lively off in offensive rebound. That was ridiculous.
He also it's numerous bailout late shot clock threes, and

(29:50):
they're all contributing to this team defense. Like, just what
a collective performance. And specifically Drew Holliday Logan, there's just
some amazing stats and him. He set the tone early
in this game with what he was doing as a screener.
Then he stripped Kyrie got out in transition. He was
active in the dunker spot again, he cut off of
an offensive rebound. He had a pull up three when

(30:12):
the defense was worried about kp posting up. Kleeba was
kind of playing the entry pass. He was a bit
too far off and Drew just banged a three in
his mouth. And that offensive versatility has been the story
of this postseason we have seen over really his entire career,
Drew cast into this role of being like your lead
perimeter creator in New Orleans. He had to take on

(30:33):
that sort of offensive burden in Milwaukee. Yes, you have Giannis,
you have Middleton, but Drew was expected to be a
twenty point per game scorer and to run a significant
portion of the offense, to have the ball in his
hands in terms of time of possession more than any
other player, and he has been alleviated of that role
and it has just made him such an efficient and

(30:53):
effective player. He has the most points per game off
of cuts by any guard in the playoffs, the most
offensive rebounds per game by any point guard in the playoffs.
Another four tonight, and he's at like two a game
in the playoffs. Outstanding there. And he's third among all
point guards in post up points per game to just
Sga and Luca. Like, he's just doing stuff that is
really big man stuff, right, cutting, rebounding, posting up. That's

(31:18):
the sort of physicality and effort that you get from
Drew Holliday that is so impactful. And when we zoom
out and think about his career, he now has on
his resume twice being the dude to put a team
over the top, Like, you trade for Drew Holliday the
next year you win the title. Because we can give
all the love to KP. It wasn't KP in this series.
KP played two and a half games and he only

(31:40):
played twenty something minutes in Game one and basically that
same amount in Game two, like Drew in this playoff
series was clearly the most impactful edition that they made
in just an incredible offseason, an offseason for the Ages
by Brad Stevens. He's taken these teams that have been
elite in the regular season, as you talked about Logan

(32:00):
knocking on the door, hitting their head on that ceiling.
But in each case they had a clear flaw. Like Milwaukee,
they did need somebody who could bring real point of
attack defense with improved offensive skill. Andrew wasn't the most
consistent there, but he brought enough, especially in that twenty
twenty one title run. It was up and down, but
he brought you enough and then obviously made them such

(32:22):
an elite team defensively, which they completely lost without him
this year. And then here you needed a guy who
could bring the sort of insane defensive mentality of Marcus
Smart and Drew is honestly even a better defensive player,
but also bring you more consistent, stabilizing value offensively, not
take you out of rhythm with bad shots, make forty

(32:43):
plus percent of his catch and shoot threes, cut as
he has rebound on the offensive glass as he has,
and he's done that, he's helped resolve issues in both
these spots. He's just the definition of a winning basketball player.
And he's a guy who, if I remember correctly, has
only been an All Star twice, but has always been
the default answer for who's the most underrated player in basketball,
Drew Holiday, Who's the best perimeter defender in basketball, Drew Holiday?

(33:06):
And now he shows you his offensive value in a
reduced role, and it's just a fantastic run for him.
I'm so happy for the guy and the success that
he's had in the late stages of his career. And
he's still gone. He got his extension this year, like
he's going to continue to be a very very impactful
basketball player and pivotal to this team trying to win
more championships.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
One hundred percent. I mean, he's like a dream number
three with everything that he does, man like you can't
and he's so talented, Like all of those years where
he's painted in that role, you know, it just made
him better right where he's having to outperform himself and
go above expectations. It's molded him into this. And I
don't think I think Milwaukee took him for granted. I
think they accredited a lot of their defense to, you know,

(33:47):
just Giannis and Brook and that drop, and I think
they took him for granted. He comes to Boston here
and really, like I think, you have to emphasize it.
That's what makes this thing work.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Man.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Again, we keep talking about this collective here in Boston.
It's the Boston defense that wins in this thing, and
it's how they can play. Nobody else can play ball
like this, where you can just effortlessly switch everybody where.
Everybody can put the rock on the floor, everybody can shoot,
everybody can get down to the hole man shout out
or for dude, he's attacking closeouts and going to dudes chest.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Everybody can be in the dunker spot. Logan, your guards
can sit in the dunker spot and they're effective there,
and your centers are forty point shooters.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
It's insane and there's there's no answer to it. There's
no weak point that they can attack, man, there's nothing
to exploit. When your answer offensively is to try to
exploit Derek White. Sorry, man, you don't have any answers
like he is. He's such a perfect weapon, man, And
I'm glad. I'm glad he can come out here and

(34:49):
do this, man, because he's so much better player. Like
I think he could be a number two at this
point if you wanted to. I don't know how that
team is, but this role he's in is it's a
dream scenario. Man.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
And you talk about this office because he's your number
five offensively, like when you're at full strength and he's
averaging thirteen points per game, that's a luxury. That's the
perfect situation for Drew at this stage in his career.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, I mean this has just been a masterclass in
so many ways that you bring up to Marcus Smart thing, Like,
think about that team that Boston went to. I think
they were early. I think I don't know if that
year that Boston was ever going to be ready to
win the title, right, they were very talented at a
great defensive culture. That team's got Robert Williams out there
playing a lot of minutes and shout out rob like
he's a good defender, but again limited in other ways

(35:34):
where you can exploit something you can't shoot the ball.
You're just gonna sag off of him. It's gonna be
a little more crowded driving into paints. Marcus Smart, Oh
my gosh, man, I hate thinking about that series. Like
him is your lead decision maker and like you're going,
all right, man, Marcus, you got to go run offense
for us for a little bit because Tatum and Brown
can't handle the ball. There's no weak points here, man.
And also the last guy. I want to give a

(35:56):
shout out to Boston to shout out Sam Hauser. Yeah, man, wow,
I'm he made me eat crow. Dude, he made me
my words housers.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
The things you were saying about sam Hauser.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
I think we might have to I will not quite
like that. I called Sam Hauser a bum verbatim he
played Ackey. I might have called him a hockey or
a cracker. I don't know. We're gonna have to rewind
the tape. Sam Hawser played his ass off in this game, rebounding, defending,
shooting the pill. He just does a lot of great

(36:31):
role player stuff. And I'll give him credit to dude,
Like he's not a like Luca got his, but it's
like Luca's gonna get his on ninety percent of guys
who guard him right, Like the way he held up
in that matchup. The effort, plays, the activity, the shooting,
the high IQ stuff. Shout out Sam Houser, Man, he's
a really good role player. And I was completely wrong.

(36:52):
This is a great basketball team. And it's that again.
That is just what I want to hammer home. I
don't want to beat a dead horse here, but it
is everybody. It is all hands on deck, and that's
why it's something beautiful. Man. It's something that I've come
to realize that it's an endearing quality about Boston. Man.
It's not about it feels like a football mentality at
some point where it's all hands on deck. Man, it's

(37:14):
all my dogs in the middle. We all got to work,
and we're all gonna work to accomplish this. I don't
care who gets the credit. Did we win? Boston did that,
and I got to tip my cap to him, man,
and I got to tip my cat to Sam Hawser Man.
I was saying some, yes frankly slanderous things about that
young man, and he's a much better basketball player than
I've painted him to be during these playoffs.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Terrible if he wanted to see you in court, I
would gladly be his lawyer. Sam, you have my number, man,
Let's make this thing happen. Let's bleed logan cam to
drive for every last cent that he's worth. The bastard,
all the things that he's said about you over the years.
Sammy Hawser will Sammy Hawser sleeper for finals MVP was
he snubbed listen Man. Pretty damn good series from a

(37:58):
white Boy of the Year on mention, Sam Howser eight
point two points per game in about fifteen minutes on
seventy four percent true shooting. Little bit inflated by some
of the garbage time stuff that he did in game four,
but he was consistently really good in this series. Game
four was by far his roughest game defensively, but like

(38:19):
in games one, three, and five, he hits multiple threes
for you, and he holds up pretty well defensively in
this game, like the effort plays, the offensive rebounds, the deflections.
He was just everywhere. And I want to give a
shout out to Derek White as well, man, because the
difference between Derek White two years ago to Derek White

(38:39):
today is just absolutely massive. In the twenty twenty two
Finals run, he was eight points per game on thirty
six percent from the field thirty one percent from three
like that was particularly a rough run from him. Offensively,
over the course of this run, He's seventeen four and
four on forty percent from deep. Like his emergence as
a top fifty player. There's just been yet another master

(39:01):
stroke of this Celtics organization. Again. They drafted brilliant talent
with Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. They traded for an
undervalued great talent and Derek White, who they developed to
be significantly better than what he was when they traded
for him. And then they added two outright stars this
past offseason to put them over the top, to bring

(39:22):
the more defensive personnel, to bring the more offensive skill
in shot making and versatility. It's just not that surprising
like they were gonna get this done eventually. I thought
the Nuggets could be the team that would give them
the best run for their money. I picked the Nuggets
to beat them going into this, but there was never
any question the Boston Celtics were going to be the
team representing the East. And once he got to this

(39:45):
matchup against the MAVs, I felt that the talent deficit
was just too overwhelming. We are going to take a
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Speaker 2 (41:28):
So there are some more Celtics points that I want
to hit on. We're not done with giving the Celtics
their props of the NBA champions. After all, we might
as well celebrate them. But logan, of course, the Dallas
Mavericks fall short, and they fall a good bit short.
It's sort of like Logan Camden attempting to dunk haa
could you imagine? Sorry, man, Luka Doncris of course is

(41:48):
at the front of that. He falls short in this one.
How would you grade his performance in this series?

Speaker 1 (41:57):
It's a good question. I think I'd give Luke a
B minus C plus teris, though he does fall really flat.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Or sad sad from London. I'm just kidding. Sorry.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
Also, man me dunking bro I'm not even clean. I
guess it is a good comp I'm not even.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
What I was thinking. I was thinking, what's an image
of a man falling comically short of something? But I
didn't need to offend you.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
I might hit the net a little bit, man, I
might get there. Sure it sucks because I think Luca's
supporting cast is always going to let him short in
shooting the basketball, and the way Boston wanted to load
up on Luca and on Kyrie was always gonna shoot
him in the foot. I just didn't I think after
game one, in game two you kind of realize that,

(42:48):
like Dallas is gonna have to have, you know, torrential shooting,
Kyrie and Luca are gonna have to be nails every game.
So I cut him a little bit of slack in
a few areas one. Again, his limited offensive supporting cast
him struggling with an injury. But I do think Luca
falls flat in a few areas one in a couple
of games, and in this one settling for that perimeter
jump shot when it's clearly not hitting and Luca was

(43:09):
off consistently. Man with that three ball shoots twenty four
percent from behind the arc. That is a big area
where he falls short. I think he did a really
poor job in protecting the basketball. He wracks up nearly
five turnovers per game in these playoffs. In this game
specifically too, there's a lot of possessions where he just
gets stripped from behind and never sees the other guy.

(43:31):
And the other damning part is the effort and just
attentiveness defensively. There are spurts, there are stretches where Luca
is locked in and engaged and in one on one
stuff is eating. But in this game, I mean he
gets picked on like they're involving him in the screening
ash in a bunch. As we mentioned earlier, there's a
lot of players where Drew Holliday has him on um
and realize oh Man Luca's just gonna ball watch I

(43:52):
can get to an open spot and find an easy look.
So yeah, I think he leaves you hanging in a
lot of areas, ball protection, selection, shooting from behind the ark,
in general and general defense. I also want to get
Luca props for the insane burden that he has on
his shoulders in generating offense for this team. But yeah,
I mean it's a letdown from the level that we

(44:13):
got from Luca last series. I'm expecting best player in
the world Luka Doncic, and we didn't get that whatsoever.
And specifically the game where he fall fouls out is
gonna be a big stand on Luca for a very
long time. Man. I think that's probably a key game.
And this is a key series that Luca is gonna
wear until he gets over the hump and wins a title.
And it's gonna be very hard to do that considering

(44:36):
how much better the West is going to get over
the following years. Man, Denver's not going anywhere, Minnesota's not
going anywhere. Oklahoma City is going to get better, Like
you know, it's not just a gimme that an all
time and I think lucas an all time player that
he gets back to the finals. Right, it's not just
a given that that's going to happen. Do I expect
it to happen, Yes, but it's not guaranteed. So I

(44:58):
think it's right in the middle of Carson. There's a
lot of areas where he left, a lot to be desired,
But I also have to recognize the offensive burden that
he deals with, so I give him a seat. You
think that's too high, you think I'm being generous with
that grade.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
That's a little high, but we've moved down from the
B minus the sea I'm more comfortable with. I would
consider like a B minus or A BE basically the
expectation for Luca. I don't think that Luca was close
to the expectation for him in this series. I thought
that he clearly had a below average offensive series. He
gives you twenty nine points five and a half assists

(45:33):
tonight on fifty three percent true shooting, so partly by design,
the playmaking impact is not nearly what you're used to.
But at the same time, when he is seeing more
single coverage, he's not able to capitalize on that with
more scoring volume, and the efficiency is really rough. And
then defensively he was mostly a disaster and as you mentioned,
turns the ball over too much in this series, and

(45:55):
in this game first half he gives you nine points
on four of ten shooting with three turnovers. You knew
the series was over then and there. When Jason Tatum
was just on another level than him offensively, you just
weren't going to come back from that. He wasn't assertive
enough in the first half of this game in particular,
but overall, it just wasn't the series that you needed
from him. And there is volatility inherently with his reliance

(46:20):
on the pull up threes when he is not going
to consistently shoot them at elite efficiency. And that is
the story of this postseason for Luca. Right he is
extremely hot and cold as a pull up jump shooter.
He's incredible against Minnesota, he is really really bad against
the Clippers. He's really bad in this series and against
ok See, it's kind of the tale of two halves

(46:41):
in that series. Like he started this postseason, the first
ten Or Stow games, he was really really cold. And
so when we talk about the best player in the
world conversation and we talk about the best offensive player, conversation.
This is why I prefer Nikoi jokicchen I thought a
lot of people were too hasty to proclaim Luca the
best player in the world after he had an awesome
shot making series against Minnesota and just overlook the issues

(47:05):
that he had had offensively in the first two series
in this run and some of the realities of his game.
Like I do think that Jokic gets you consistently a
higher shot quality because of his play style, his ability
to play this overwhelming bullyball out of the post, his
insane paint touch, which is unmatched, makes him less reliant
on his jumper, where even when his three point shot
was ice cold in this playoff run, it's just a

(47:27):
difference in volume, and he has such an overwhelming ability
to score in the paint that he still gives you
significantly better efficiency and also is scoring at like twenty
nine a game in this playoff run. And the offensive
impact beyond that is just always more multifaceted with Jokic,
the elite screening, the elite offensive rebounding, a bit more
off ball movement, some more of that quick ball movement

(47:48):
within the flow of an offense, and just the fact
that he's never going to force the issue, and he's
a better pure passer, so you're just getting more overwhelmingly
great shot quality with him. I do think again, people
got a bit carried away with that conversation. Luca to
me is a top three player, but he didn't play
up to expectations in this series, and when we look
at where he has to improve, obviously the defensive side

(48:11):
of the ball. Mostly he was fine throughout this playoff run,
but it was really brutal through the first three games
of this series. His inability to guard Jalen and Jason
on an island was one thing, but the lapses in
focus were equally, if not more, brutal, and you just
can't have those going forward, especially in the NBA Finals. Conditioning,
I think as a factor to him holding up on
the defensive end, and he carries an overwhelming offensive load,

(48:34):
but that's going to be the reality for the foreseeable future.
He has to be able to at least compete defensively.
And I also think that the way that he conducts himself,
not being rattled by officiating, not blaming officiating, not losing
his cool. I want to just see him be more
consistently level headed, and I thought that to his credit,
he snapped into shape in game four, he snapped into

(48:54):
shape in game five. We saw it after Game four
against Oka, see when he went off the rails. He
snapped into shape for the last two games of that series.
But he's got to be consistent there, and I would
like to see him overall just a bit more consistently
getting into that paint. And I think that part of
that could be his knee bothering him throughout his playoff run.
I also think it's a trend that we saw even

(49:16):
before he suffered that injury in the Clippers series, and
it's also just a trend of his game, Like Luca
has become increasingly reliant on pull up jumpers and he's
gotten better at them, but he's still, to me at
his best when he is in the paint as a
scorer and a playmaker. And I thought that he was
great finishing in the paint in this series. Again, was
the jump shooting that killed him. So the great question

(49:38):
THEO asked friend of the show shout out, I would
give him either a C minus or a D plus.
I think that he had to be significantly significantly better
than this for the mass to ever have a chance
to win this series. And this doesn't change my big
picture outlook on Luca. I still feel very similarly about
him too, the way that I felt going into this series,
and I do think he'll be back. I do think

(49:59):
he'll be batter. But this was undeniably a letdown and
Dallas never had as much talent, so on paper, they
were always going to be the underdogs. If they were
gonna win, it was because Luca and Kyrie were gonna
have to be overwhelming. Luca fell short of that and
Kyrie also Logan certainly fell short of that.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, I'm wondering if we give Kyrie an F or
a D where Kyrie grades out on this.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Kyri's probably a D minus. I would say, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
He gives you sub twenty a night on forty one
twenty eight, splits forty eight percent true shooting, and he
just gotta be better. The one area O cut Kyrie slack,
and what is so frustrating about him is it's like
his inability to get in rhythm if he's struggling. One
thing that was so consistent by Kyrie is like if
his shot is going early, Kyrie has this like avalanche

(50:49):
effect where he sees it go through the hoop, and
this is true of a lot of hoopers too, where
you get two or three going and it's like, all right,
it's all I'm cooking this game. And consistently through these
playoffs and in the finals, it felt like if Kyrie's
shot was falling early, he was gonna have it, and
if it wasn't, it wasn't going to turn around. And
that's how it felt in this one too. Kyrie gets

(51:11):
to all of his looks, and that's what's so frustrating
about this game, is like I didn't hate Kyrie's shot selection. Ever,
I didn't hate the looks that Kyrie got to. I
actually liked Kyrie's process. I thought his decision making was solid.
I thought the way he worked to get to his
looks was great. He was just missing. And that's the
reality of being a tough shot maker. Like, he gets

(51:32):
a couple of open threes in this game. This is them.
He gets open threes throughout the early part or the
you know, the first four games, he's missing them. He
has one good game where he's on from behind the arc,
and then in this game and a lot of others
point blank layups that he's making. There's one in this
one where he gets to his spot, little lefty layup
bootle right out of the rim. Man, he just never

(51:52):
gets it going. And it's like, that's just a reality
of who is as a player, right, nothing's ever gonna
come easy, these guys who get tough. But it for
Kyrie Irving, who isn't what he once was athletically, isn't
what he once was in terms of quickness and shiftiness.
And you know, it's not drastic from Pete Kyrie, but
it is older Kyrie. And so this is just the

(52:14):
reality of him as a player. And this is a
really tough team to go up against defensively, when you're
going up against two of the best defensive guards in basketball.
That doesn't change that he had to be better, and
it doesn't change the fact that I would give him
probably a D minus or an F. It sucks for him, man.
I didn't hate his It wasn't a IQ thing. You know,

(52:34):
it wasn't a decision making thing. It was just him
not hitting his shots. And that's life. Is a tough
shot maker for Kyrie Irving. Man, And this is a
really tough defense to get matched up against. It doesn't
change the fact that he completely underwhelmed and didn't give
Luca the support he needed. Luca didn't give Kyrie what
he needed. Kyrie didn't give Luke what he needed. It's
really a disappointing, disappointing finals from both of these guys

(52:59):
when you know, we saw what they could do at
their peak against Minnesota Man and just seems like they
blew their wald. Neither of these guys played anywhere close
to expectation in this series.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
No, and Kyrie is the worst offender of the two.
He was really really disappointing. The efficiency is just brutal.
And I said that I thought that these two were
at the highest peak of a collective backcourt that we've seen,
and a large reason for that was the self creation,
the ability to create such high quality shots for themselves

(53:31):
regardless of matchup, and the shot making is a huge
part of that. The shot making largely failed both of
them in this series. The ability of a guy like
Luca the pressure of the rim is also an advantage.
But also comparing them to the other contender, which is
Stephan Clay, I thought that the gap between Kyrie and
Clay was legitimate and a lot of that is the
self creation, it is the overwhelming shot making you normally

(53:54):
get from Kyrie. I mean, he is still pretty damn
quick dude. He's had a lot of incredible moments with
his quick getting downhill in these playoffs, he just sucked
in this series. I think more than anything, his jumper
just was not what it needed to be. I didn't
hate his shot quality, he really struggled to score off
of switches. Though there was never really a mismatch for

(54:14):
Kyrie in this series. The best looks that he got
were against KP out of drop, and he just missed
a lot of those open pull up threes. And I
think the collective size of this defense was really a
challenge for him. He was blocked eight times in this series,
So your foundation as a team required that he'd be exceptional.
He just was not even close to that. And props
to Boston again for guarding both these dudes straight up,

(54:36):
not conceding advantages to the role players like in Okase
he had to, and still limiting their individual scoring production.
Dallas never stood a chance with Kyrie and Luca at
this level. They're just way less talented, and I'm not
sure that There's much more for us to say about
Dallas's role players on that front, like did they have
some disappointing shooting performances in Games one through three? Absolutely,

(54:58):
dudes missed some wide open shots, but nothing really shocking
like Boston had clearly coming into this series five of
the seven best players by far that held up. Dallas
just has more limited guys, They have more limited offensive personnel,
and Boston had the game plan to take away their
easy shots.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
I completely agree. I do think it brings up an
interesting question for We'll get more in depth as the
off season goes along, but I was thinking about. One
clear thing to me about this Dallas playoff run is
the fact that they do need a third star so
to speak, or you know, a third like consistent offensive creator,

(55:38):
you know, just a guy who puts a little more
pressure on the defense, ideally a two way guy. I
haven't looked at the contract situation for this team, so
I don't even know if this is feasible via sign
and trade or via outright and free agency. What do
you think about, like Paul George to Dallas alongside Luke
and Kyrie.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
I would like it. I'm trying to think about how
they would make it happen. You'd have to move Tim Hardaway.
Junior would have to be a sign in trade. They
certainly can't sign them out right. You'd have to move
your other mid size contracts, like a Josh Green. You'd
have to move probably Maxi Kliba. Those are some of
their more mobile mid size contracts that don't require them

(56:23):
giving up PJ. Washington or Daniel Gafford, who I think
you want to hold on to, And then you'd have
to attach some draft assets to that, because I don't
think that there's a whole ton of intrigue in like
three decent role players for the Clippers, and the MAVs
don't really have that much draft capital to dish out.

(56:46):
Let me, I don't know that they have the guns
to make something like that happen, Like I think they
only have one or two more tradeable firsts.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Let me rephrase this question, then, do you think Dallas
needs a player of pg's caliber as your third guy
to win the title? Like what kind of asset, what
kind of players do they need to acquire to put
them over the top, or do you even think that's possible?
You know, is a player like that attainable in this offseason,

(57:19):
or their moves available that you think could make Dallas
a legitimate title contender or change their standing in the West.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
I think it's highly unlikely that they're able to pull
off something really splashy. The rumors this regular season were
Og or Pascal Siakam. I think Og would have been
perfect here. But I don't think you can be upset
about getting PJ. Washington and Daniel Gafford. Like I think
in the aggregate, those guys brought you great value. All
you had to do was trade two firsts and you

(57:47):
got two seconds back in the PG trade. And like
Seth Curry Grant Williams, you aren't losing sleep over trading
any of these guys away. But you have to understand
the predicament that Dallas started in. They let Jalen Brunson
walk and then they had to trade. Although it wasn't
like a really tough value move for Kyrie, they were

(58:09):
able to buy low on him. Still, you're giving up dfs,
you're giving up draft capital, giving up Spencer Dinwiddie, You're
giving up some of your few remaining assets. And then
even after that, you were eight and twelve down the
stretch last season with Kyrie on the floor, you missed
the play in to turn that into drafting Derek Lively twelfth,
amazing value pick, getting Derek Jones junior on the minimum,

(58:31):
amazing signing, getting PJ. Washington and Daniel Gafford. Like those
are four home runs right there. They did the best
job they reasonably could have without getting some sort of
like star like in terms of pure role player improvement
that doesn't happen over one offseason. I want to give
Dallas the utmost credit for that and keep that in perspective.
They don't necessarily have a lot of margin to easily

(58:54):
improve here. But I do think they're gonna be really
good next year. They're gonna be behind Den, They're going
to be behind OKAC pretty clearly. To me, those are just
more talented basketball teams. And I do think okay C
will improve this offseason because they have crazy assets. But
if you're able to just be really good and then
you say, all right, Kyrie want to stick it out

(59:16):
with us, well, I guess you can make an assessment
after next year if you're close enough as a basketball team.
But that's what I want to keep in perspective. We
have this sort of tendency to really harshly judge moves
with hindsight. Right the Suns, why did they trade for
Bradley Beal? Well, they had Chris Paul, who was a
negative asset. We thought they might cut the guy. They
were in a bad situation. Dallas was in a bad situation.

(59:38):
And I love the moves that they made, and I
still think they have come so so far from where
they would have been if they hadn't nailed the role
player moves gotten Kyrie. For the value that they did overall,
if I'm a mass fan, I'm still very happy when
I consider where you could have and very likely would
have otherwise been.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
Yeah, it's a great point, and I mean there were
portions I don't want to lose sight of this, Like
you mentioned that eight and twelve stretch where, uh, you know,
in the first run with Kyrie on this team, they
missed the play In the conversation after that was well,
damn man, is Dallas gonna run the risk of losing
Luka Doncic if they missed the playoffs again this year?

(01:00:17):
And now it gives him, you know, a little more
hope and maybe a little more incentive of sticking around
and saying, hey, you know, this is gonna work. There's
something that I can work with here where we can be,
you know, really competitive. So I think you're right, though,
I don't think we should look at this as a
in all failure, And we also have a tendency to
Carson to look at this not just in hindsight but

(01:00:38):
in the terms of oh, man, if you didn't win
the title, this season was a failure. This season was
no means a failure for Dallas, like huge success for Dallas. Yeah, like,
you know, we have this win or lose, you know,
the Ricky Bobby. If you're not first, your last, you know,
and that just isn't the case. Ultimately, twenty nine teams
have to go to can Kuhn. It's just reality, a

(01:00:59):
bad skip ball, man. They got to get the boot.
Only one team can waste the trophy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
They're on the latest light.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
They're already there. Man. I saw some dude posted at
halftime that the MAVs were there. Man. Yeah, I don't
think this is a failure, but I also do think
that they're gonna be hard pressed to really make tangible improvements.
So I think it's probably gonna be in house progress
is what we look at next season for this team
really making jumps, and the two guys I would point
to are Josh Green. I really think what we got

(01:01:28):
out of Josh Green was encouraging and Lively like I'm not.
I know some people after he hit one corner three,
we're like, all right, man, look if Lively starts splashing
corner threes, it's over, dude, this breaks the game. I
don't expect Lively to become like an elite floor space
or anything, but I do think there's a higher level there.
And really too, It's also a story about this Carson Hesser.

(01:01:48):
I know we talked about the Raptors last time we
brought up this compm. It is so hard not only
to make the right moves to give yourself a competitive roster,
it's so hard to get that team to play great
basketball within the what two month span that you have
post trade deadline to get up the championship level. That's
insane that this team in the span of two months

(01:02:11):
turned around and became not only competitive, they went to
the finals. I don't know another team outside and again,
Toronto kind of had their conglomerate right. They get Marcassol.
I can't remember another team that had this many trade
deadline moves that was this successful immediately afterwards. You know,
I don't know if you want to point to like

(01:02:32):
the twenty eighteen Calves. They've got the best player maybe
ever on their team, right, Yeah, that that too is
also historic president that you just don't see in basketball.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
No, and the Caves didn't even make good moves. They
just had Lebron in the East sucked and so they
still got there. No, it's one move, like that's the
historical precedent. In nineteen ninety five, the Rockets ad Clyde
midway through the season. In two thousand and four of
the Pistons ad sheet in two thousand and eight, the
Lakers at a Gasol to reach the finals that year.
You don't see multiple key moves, and it's just two

(01:03:05):
with PJ and Gafford, but still like two of your starters.
You acquire mid season, and they come from the worst
teams in the league, like having not had to play real,
meaningful winning basketball, and they immediately embraced all the things
that it took to do so. And PJ has his
huge moments in the OKC series Gafford brings you such consistent,

(01:03:25):
awesome rim protection, Like shout out to all those dudes again.
The value propositions that the maps have made have been fantastic.
The shitty part is now you're gonna lose Derek Jones Junior.
In all likelihood, you're probably gonna lose Dante Exem who
is another good addition who I should have given them
credit for, And so I would like to see them

(01:03:48):
still find a way to improve, Like there's no reason
for Tim Hardaway Junior to be a Dallas Maverick next
year if they can move him, like him eating up
sixteen million dollars, the guy who's basically unplayable in the playoffs,
I would gladly move off of him. Josh Green, I
really like. I don't know that there's that much room
for improvement. I think he kind of does what he
does at this point. He's improved as a shooter. He

(01:04:10):
brings you the energy, he brings you the athleticism, the
impact defensive plays. I like the guy, but I think
that there are potentially just some ways that they could
sort of upgrade the THCHJ role and maybe get somebody
who brings more ball handling that an offensive spark. I
know that Bogdan Bogdanovitch is going to be a target
for a whole bunch of people. I don't know if

(01:04:31):
there's some sort of sign and trade that they could
work out there, send THHJ back to Atlanta. That's the
sort of move that I would like. And yeah, I
wish that they had like a really really awesome three
and D wing right, I wish that they had Ojiananobi.
But overall, the debt that they have filled out this
roster with I think is pretty good. It's going to
be really hard for them to replicate this. It is

(01:04:52):
because again they were able to avoid Denver, who would
clearly be the hardest matchup. They were able to take
advantage of injured Clippers, a less mature OKC team that
I just think is going to be more playoff experience
next year and again will be improved as a roster.
And then they just played an awesome series against Minnesota,

(01:05:13):
like they had a very legit path through the West.
I'm not trying to take away from that, but the
West is only gonna get harder, and I don't think
the MAVs have easy avenues to getting better. So it's
a great season for them, it's a great run. It's
gonna be tough to pull off again. And the biggest
thing to me is just like Kyrie has to sort
of reprove his value here because he is your co

(01:05:35):
foundational piece. And if you're gonna commit to him long
term when this guy's thirty two years old, now you're
gonna give him another contract. If that's a mistake with Luca,
and now you have him committed to a guy who's
fallen off and you're paying him in saill he's thirty seven,
thirty eight years old, that's when you are in jeopardy
of losing your superstar, foundational franchise talent. And that was

(01:05:58):
always the concern with Kyrie. It's just like, is he
the right guy? Are you close enough? Overall? I thought
the mass would be a lot further away than they
are right now. So I view that as a success. Okay,
I want to give a little bit more love to
Boston because when we were talking about all the dudes,
we didn't specifically reign praise upon Al Horford enough, Logan,
I have a lot Al Horford numbers that I'm just

(01:06:19):
gonna read out to you okay, because to me, there's
not a more deserving dude in the league of winning
a ring outside of Chris Paul. Chris Paul, Oh boy,
he's played championship basketball since two thousand and five and
he hasn't gotten a ring. I know some people disagree,
but what a perfect point guard. But outside of him,
Horford's at the top of that list since oh seven,
This dude who has been playing winning basketball. He's played

(01:06:41):
in one hundred and eighty six playoff games in his career.
Only thirteen players top that number in NBA history, and
those players have won an average of four point four rings.
So Al was way beyond do for a ring. He
has fourteen winning seasons in seventeen years in the NBA.
His teams have been better with him on the floor
for fifteen consecutive seasons. He has tied fifth among active

(01:07:06):
players in career wins with Kevin Durant. He's twelve among
all active players in career plus minus. He's one of
just fifteen centers ever to average five assists a game
in a season, one of just ten centers ever to
make one hundred and forty threes in a season, and
he is the only center ever to do both, so
that rare blend of playmaking and three point shooting from

(01:07:28):
the five that so many teams are looking for. With
awesome defense, this guy's made an All Defense team and
could have made several more. And the longevity is all
time special. He's one of just nine players ever to
play five hundred plus minutes in a postseason at thirty
seven years or older, and specifically in this series. Again,
the amazing switchability, how well he guarded both Kyrie and Luca,

(01:07:50):
and the floor spacing was so valuable, not just the
raw number from three. A lot of bigs stretch bigs
are not comfortable shooting from the corps, right, you have
your guys who are just above the break shooters. Al
was awesome there. In the playoffs, he was like forty
three percent from the corners, made a big one tonight,
forty five percent from the corners in the regular season

(01:08:10):
on legit volume. Just to so many complimentary things, and
has been doing it for his whole career. Even when
he was a star. He was like the winning impact,
not necessarily big stats guy, sort of star. So the
question that we've been hearing for Al Horford for some
time is Is he a Hall of Famer? What do
you think? Logan, Yes, yes, No, love it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
I mean love it. Not that the bar is you know,
super high for the Basketball Hall of Fame. But right Also,
I don't really think this would have bearing on if
Al was going to get in there. I think he's
a lock now, but I don't know. I think he's
gonna get in regardless. Also, one, I want to give
you some extra props on Al Horford because a long
time ago, when he was stationed in Oklahoma City, a

(01:08:54):
lot of people wrote him off as washed a negative asset.
The guy care and now Horford flag was our very
own Carson Brebers saying, Hey, this guy would be a
great role player on a good basketball team, and he
goes to a good basketball team and he keeps providing
that impact heading in then.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
I underestimated him in this run though, I want to
be clear about that. I thought he was gonna be
like the relative weak point defensively, and he was as
strong a point as any. So shout out big Al.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
I thought so too. Coming into this, he had the
second most career playoff games without a title. That is gone.
He has ringed up now. And also this is a
crazy step minimum two NBA Final series. Al Horford is
the best three point shooter by percentage in NBA Finals history.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
Let's goll I wonder who else is on the short
list there. Danny Green probably fell off, but he certainly
would have been there for the Spurs years.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
I think Mike Miller's too.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
I thought you were gonna say Mike McGee, and I
was gonna say, yeah, he was a sharp shooter ahead
of his time, Mike McGee showtime Lakers role player legend.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
I'm checking to see who else is on this list?
Our boy? Oh not, I get only played in one.
I was gonna say, Chris Paul, Shane Battier, Rick sam Hauser.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Yeah buddy, Yeah, buddy, I can't do this show anymore.
Get ready to learn Chinese logan? Can then we're sending
you to the Chinese Basketball Media Association. You're gonna cover Jimmer.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
I can't competently evaluate white basketball.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
Town Bro has a condition.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
I just can't bring myself to like white basketball players.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Something about them that's something to unpack in another time.
Anything else you want to say about Al Horford and
the Hall of Fame? Are you just gonna talk about
white dudes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
I'm actually shocked Sam House from the list, like eight
minutes per game, No, dude. I mean, what I think
is really remarkable about Al Horford and guys like that,
like Brook Lopez too, is how they adapted.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
When you think about prim Al Horford, he's a great player,
always has been. I mean he won a national title
at Florida, him and Joe Kim Noah and Corey Brewer
and the boys, right most fates. That was a great
basketball team then. And he was a winner then, always
great out of the pick and roll, always great defensively,
always a great rebounder and passer for a big and
pretty skilled. But you know, the one thing that brought

(01:11:16):
those guys down was their limited floor spacing and how
could shoot. That's a big misconception. I think about a
lot of centers from the two thousands or you know,
even before that, like guys couldn't shoot at all. Most
guys had a mid range game, you know, like fifteen ton.
But you know, people just conflate that to say, oh,
if you can't shoot a three player, you couldn't shoot
at all. But it is remre That's a hard thing

(01:11:39):
to just add to your bag, especially as an old player,
and that's what kept Al around. Like, think about if
he had always stayed as he'd be a lumbering guy
who's not a great vertical athlete, Like sure could.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
He moves his feet out there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
He's gotten better. I think Horford lost weight too over
the past couple of years. Man to like stay in shape, right,
but he could have had negative value. The thing that
kept out being a really impactful player on the court
was the threat of him shooting the pill and last
year was ugly.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
That was a bad Al Horford run where I cringed
when he shot threes. This is not the case, man,
And it's just it's a testament to him as a
player in his career that he was able to change
his game so much and stick around. Man, That's that's
not an easy thing to do. And we take it
for granted because you know, it's the modern age. Everybody
can shoot. I'll added that to his bag, man, and

(01:12:31):
that's a big part of the reason why he's getting
his ring today.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Absolutely. Al Horford had not attempted more than half a
three a game until his twenty nine year old season
twenty sixteen, his last year in Atlanta, and since then
has consistently been one of the premier stretch bigs in
the league, and as you mentioned, was always a good
mid range shooter. But just so many winning things that
he does for you. And we think about him now

(01:12:57):
as like the ultimate role player, but I don't want
to neglect that he was at the very least the
co best player on some really awesome Atlanta teams. Like
you're talking about teams winning fifty plus games, of course,
the most famous being twenty fifteen when they were the
best Fake team of all time and they won sixty
games that year. But like you go before then into

(01:13:19):
the Josh Smith and Joe Johnson days, like al Orford
has always contributed to winning, and that goes back to
his college career. And when we're talking about the Basketball
Hall of Fame, logan like it or not, that matters.
Your college career, absolutely matters. It's the reason that Bill
Bradley is in the Basketball Hall of Fame. International basketball matters.
That's the reason Sarunas Marshalonas is in the Hall of Fame.
The bar just isn't that high, as you say, And

(01:13:43):
to have als longevity, to be a five time All Star,
to have again, this sort of impact that doesn't even
necessarily show up on the stat sheet, and now to
have the ring that just puts a nice button on it.
Of course, this is not the defining stretch of Al
Horford's career. He's always had the traits to contribute to
a team winning a championship, and now the dudes around
him did their jobs. They had enough talent, and Al

(01:14:04):
did his job at a really high level. So I
do think he's in the Basketball Hall of Fame with
the parameters that we've laid out there. Do I wish
that the bar were higher, Yeah, but the bar is
set now Calvin Murphy's in there. Calvin Murphy was cool.
The one time All Star wasn't nearly as impactfully winning
basketball player as Al Horford, nor does he have that
college resume. Put all in and deal with the ramifications.

(01:14:27):
He's not Hall of very Good in basketball. He's Hall
of Fame. Any other sport he'd be Hall of very good.
This is different. I do want to give props to
Joe mizu Logan. I think that we've already talked enough
about the game plan, but again, just the faith in
the personnel and the identity and the principles on both
sides of the ball. Awesome game management, really good. Just
a noticeable improvement from him in year two. Really impressive

(01:14:50):
to do this as the youngest coach in basketball. Shout
out to that guy, because he's been really consistently quite
good in these playoffs. And I just wasn't sure that
he would be like a positive for them necessarily in
this series. It wasn't like I was like, oh, man,
Joe Moszula is gonna blow this for them, but he
was clearly a positive.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
I just love the way he communicates with his team.
I love the way he keeps these guys on track.
They're all the micd up moments from this series. Man,
it's just he keeps the guys locked, he keeps them
focused on ball. And he's so clearly like I thought.
I judged him really harshly after his first season as

(01:15:30):
a head coach, and I thought that he may be
like not ready for the moment, he may be a
little too young. Mosoula gets it, man, and I think
he's a he's a really brilliant mind. I also love
him in the presser. Man, that guy is all about.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Some he's funny, he's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
He's one of the best interviews. Also, timely timeouts to
go these playoffs. Man, we're the biggest days from Boston
last year. Oh my god, dude, can we end a run, Joe,
Let's burn one. Let's burn one. He did it in
this run so much so. Maybe made improvements, but the
communication with his two stars and keeping them locked on, Hey,
do this next time? Do this next time. People, we

(01:16:08):
always you know, for a long time have talked about
basketball is a game of talent. Basketball is a game
of matchups and adjustments. And I thought every time you
know Boston needed to change something or needed to change
their focal point, Missoula was there and kept his guys locked.
I Missoula has grown so much to me as a
as a head coach and has grown on me is

(01:16:28):
just a person, like I think. I think Missoula is
a really good coach. And I don't think that's just
because he has an all time talented basketball team. Again,
I think he enhances these guys legitimately. I think he
makes them a better team.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
As their coach for sure, and I think that he
has improved their offensive process. Like there were a couple
stretches where it broke down in this series, like the
second half of Game three was pretty bad. But overall,
this series is always going to be about mismatch hunting.
But he got them committed to that. I thought he
did a good job ofnipulating the weak points defensively for

(01:17:02):
Dallas where they were on the floor Kyrie and Luca,
getting those guys to be the low man, getting the
bigs out in space, just like compromising them deliberately attacking
all of the vulnerabilities on top of a really awesome
defensive game plan that they committed to. They never veered
off of that. Even when Luca was torching them in

(01:17:23):
Game two, they did not veer off of that, and
I thought that they were consistently rewarded for doing so.
So shout out to Big Joe. He is more than
just an enjoyer of cinema. He is a very good
basketball coach. I do want to talk about where this
team ranks among recent NBA champions, and I guess throughout
the course of NBA history, we talked about some of

(01:17:44):
the specific company that they've joined, But where do they
fall logan for you if we start since two thousand,
because we talked about where we thought they'd be if
they won this series. In five, we got a question
asking exactly that from a fan, a viewer who perhaps
has some sort of clairvoyance. Now that that's happened, where
do you think they fall top ten?

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
Since two thousand seems about sure for sure. I know
I'm wondering where they I'm probably taking the one Lakers.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
Oh probably, look and we can drop them. Probably.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
I just the inconsistency of JB and j Jason Brown
and Damn can I speak English? Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum.
Their inconsistency is as number one is what brings them down.
But it's rare that you have a collective I would
take Denver over them in recent memory. Okay, there's not many.

(01:18:44):
There's a huge talent gap between a team like that,
and like even the I wonder if I'm taking them
over the I don't think I'm taking the twenty fourteen Spurs.
I wonder if I'm taking the Heatles. I'm probably taking
the Heatles just because of Lebron and d Wade. I
that's close. Like that's what I want to emphasize, Like
the aggregate talented Boston has. They're complete five A lot

(01:19:06):
of these teams are just star studded at the top,
and Boston's got a ton up and down the roster.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):
The other thing with the twenty thirteen Heat, which is
the best version of that team, is that their role
players were better than they'd ever been. Lebron was the
best that he'd been, but d Wade had really taken
a step back because of injuries, and he's only giving
you like sixteen a night in that run, So they
don't have as much of an overwhelming star factor as
twenty eleven. D Wade is like a top five player.

(01:19:34):
He's not close to that by twenty thirteen, But I
think you hit on a lot of the ones that
they're in the range of. I would take them over
the twenty fourteen Spurs, which is an amazing basketball team,
But if we're looking at sort of the no superstar mold,
I do think that this Celtics team is an even
better version of it. I do think that they're even
better defensively. And although the Spurs offensive process was so

(01:19:58):
consistent in their ball movement shooting was so excellent, this
Boston offense, to me, is just a bit more talented.
They have more absolute weapons on the floor. They have
the athletes again to attack missmatches like crazy. They have
the ball handling for a bunch of different dudes to
break you down off the bounce. KP is a special
sort of weapon, So I would lean them in that matchup.

(01:20:19):
The ones who are clearly above them are the two
thousand oh two Lakers and the twenty seventeen to twenty
eighteen Warriors. I think those are the teams that are
just too talented, too dominant. They have separated no matter
what the numbers may say. Versus the eight Celtics. Dude,
that's a close one, and of course it's different eras,
so we are sort of viewing it in terms of

(01:20:39):
just the dominance within their era. That team did struggle
some in the postseason. They played a lot of really
competitive series, and I think the reason for that is
just a lack of consistent elite offensive talent compared to
this team. That wait Celtics team was better defensively. I
don't know that they were better by a wide enough
margin to offset the offensive gap that this team does have.

(01:21:02):
And that's another team that didn't necessarily have like that
of offensive very consistent superstar. But this team has more
aggregate talent, more consistent, awesome shooting, more versatile supporting cast guys,
And then you get to twenty thirteen and it's like,
do you just trust Lebron being at that sort of
overwhelming level to guide you past? I probably do. I

(01:21:25):
probably would take the twenty thirteen heat But I think
I'm taking this team over the twenty fourteen Spurs. I
think I'm taking them over the o Waite Celtics. But
that one is really close, and the Nuggets of last
year are also really close. There's no doubt that Boston
is a better regular season team than the Nuggets. In

(01:21:46):
terms of the playoffs, I do think the Nuggets had
a more consistent floor. The Nuggets never ever, ever could
have lost a game by forty like the Celtics did
in Game four, and even down kp like the offensive
formula for Denver was just so rock solid. With Jamal
playing at that level, Jokic was going through everybody. It's
to me, the best offensive postseason we've ever seen from
an individual guy. But there is superior defensive talent here

(01:22:11):
that one is a little bit easier to just directly
match up, though, And I think that Boston would really,
really really struggle with Jokic. I just don't think that
they have the front line. The switch ability that makes
them so great does not work against Niko Jokic. KP
really can't defend Yokic. He's not physical enough as a

(01:22:31):
post defender. He's not good enough as a pure rebounder
to keep him off the offensive last enough. And that
Nuggets seemed to me ultimately was better than this year
is because of Bruce Brown and because Jamal was at
a completely different level. NBJ was better in that run
than he was because of just how bad he was
in that Minnesota series. That one is really really close, dude,

(01:22:54):
I'm conflicted. Boston's more talented, Boston's the more dominant regular
season team. I guess I'll give the edge because of that,
but I think that the matchup would be a challenge
for them. So they're, like, to me, just outside the
top five in terms of like, if we're counting the
individual iterations of these great teams, like the Lakers, like

(01:23:18):
the Warriors, But if we're viewing the Lakers from two
thousand oh two is one entity. Same for the Warriors
when they repeat in seventeen and eighteen, then I think
that these Celtics are a top five team of this century,
and I do think they're a top twenty champion. Ever,
damn I mean knowing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:34):
That I'm an assuming you're gonna reject all these teams,
let me throw four more as you rapid fire twenty
twenty Lakers versus this team.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
This team just has way more firepower. Lebron and ab
would be the two best players on the floor in
that series. And that is what's challenging about this team
When we're comparing them to these other great champions. Almost
all of them were more battle tested. But I don't know.
I just think the margins with this Boston team were
so large that, like, I don't want to discredit dominance
of this run, I think you have to understand the context.

(01:24:03):
Like it's not the same as the two thousand and
one Lakers sweeping three straight fifty win teams out West,
but it is still really, really impressive. So yes, I
would take the Celtics team twenty nineteen Raptors. I would
take the Celtics team. Kawhi would be the best player
on the floor. That team also was very complete, but

(01:24:24):
there's a different level of offensive dynamism that you're getting
from Derek White and Drew Holidays or fourth and fifth
options versus Danny Green and Sergei Baka. There were a
lot of really good players on that team, but I
think the Celtics top six is still definitely stronger.

Speaker 1 (01:24:41):
Twenty sixteen Calves.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
Twenty sixteen Calves are tough because they beat the Warriors,
which is obviously insane, but I do think some crazy
things had to go wrong for that happened to the Warriors,
such as Steph being hurt, Boga being hurt, Harrison Barnes
shitting himself, Draymond getting suspended again. That's a level from
Lebron that is just like crazy hard to deny. And

(01:25:08):
Kyrie was awesome in that run. But I think I
would probably lean the overwhelming talent of the Celtics. But
part of what's interesting is like, how do they follow
this up next year? Because I do think that that
will still lend some perspective not to like, Okay, are
they a legit champer not. There's no question they're a
legit champ, But when we're talking about putting them in

(01:25:29):
these conversations that their talent would indicate, their statistical resume
would indicate in both the regular season and the playoffs.
It could provide some perspective on exactly where they fall
because they're running it back, Man, they're running it back
with the same damn team. They have all these dudes
in place, and that's scary for the league. Do you
disagree with any of those Like, I do think that
the two strongest champions since the Warriors, if we just

(01:25:52):
put it in this like era of parity perspective, are
pretty clearly last year's Nuggets in this year's Celtics.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
To me, yeah, I think the biggest thing is the
overwhelming offensive talent. I also was thinking about like twenty
eleven Dallas in terms of like really good role players
along with the star. But it's a different game. Like
I think that's what's important to emphasize here is like
I mean, Celtics had what the highest offensive rating ever

(01:26:19):
during this regular season. Like it's again, I know we're
comparing against different eras, so you have to compare them
relative to who they played, but there's a different level
of dominance and there's a different level of offensive and
defensive ease. Man, they're up there for sure, But that's
the thing, and I think you had on a big
key too.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
Can they come back next year and can they just
roll through the East again? Can they dominate the finals?
I think it gives them a edge, and I think
it gives I think it's gonna give Tatum and Brown
like even more confidence in themselves. Maybe they didn't have
it because they don't have the hallmark of a champion yet,
but I think wearing that, I think they get in
offended with honor and like you said, dude, everybody's under contract.

(01:26:59):
I would anticipate Boston. I would frankly be shocked if
Boston wasn't back here next year.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
Yeah, I would be too. There are teams that have
opportunity to improve, that have some great foundational pieces in place.
The Sixers, if they do out of Paul George, that's
a pretty awesome big three that they would have. The
Knicks maybe just running it back at full strength. You
have your questions about Julius Randall, but they have the
physicality to match up, they have the debt, they have
now two offensive stars to deal with, their awesome role

(01:27:31):
players and rebounding and all that. Like, those are the
sort of teams who'd have a puncher's chance. But there's
nobody who heading getto next year is gonna look Boston
in the eye out east and say we have as
much talent, and even out West, it's probably not gonna
be we have as much talent as you one to one,
because they were the most talented team this year. And
then that was never the question. The question was, okay,

(01:27:54):
will the gap in that like superstar quotient come back?
Because I've seen a conversation about like, if the Celtics
are a super team. I don't think they are. I
think they're a super talented team. Heyo, But a super
team to me means that you are talking about multiple
top ten players on one basketball team. That's not what

(01:28:15):
the Celtics are. The Celtics are five top fifty players
and one Al Horford, who is awesome. That's just like
an incredibly constructive basketball team. You wouldn't call the four
Pistons a super team. You wouldn't call the twenty fourteen
Spurs a super team. And while the Celtics are more
talented than even those teams, that's the closest thing that
you would find that sort of mold. Right though, four
Pistons had four All Star caliber players in two thousand

(01:28:38):
and six, they literally had four All Stars, but you
wouldn't consider them a super team because none of those
guys are top ten players. In the Celtics case, none
of those guys are top five players, certainly not multiple
of them in that sort of top ten legit superstar range.
So what's the vibe for next year? Logan, do you
think the Celtics are the heavy favorite overall? I know
you say you'd be shocked not to see back here.

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
Well you think, yeah, it's mostly honestly, it has a
lot to do with the path. I mean, the talent.
The reason that a lot of what you said, the talent,
the gap between them and the other teams out East,
the ease of the path I think that Boston is
going to have. I think they'll clearly be the number
one seed, have the easiest path, and then out West again,

(01:29:21):
that's a huge part of it, Like there's such a
talent discrepancy between the two conferences. Whoever comes out of
the West. I'm not saying they're not going to be
close in talent level, It's just gonna be a lot
harder for any of those other teams to come out
because they're gonna be playing much better teams than Boston's
gonna be facing right, Like, I can almost pencil in
Boston as the Eastern Conference champion again next season. There's

(01:29:43):
not really a team I can do that for out West,
and so for that reason, because I expect Boston to
be right back here, they probably would be my favorite.
I got Denver too, but again it comes back to
the point that Denver's path is going to be so
much tougher than Boston's. So yeah that there probably are
my title favorite. Damn that sucks to say.

Speaker 2 (01:30:04):
Oh this guy, this guy in the city of Boston.
You know, they should have you drawn and quartered if
you ever seen I.

Speaker 1 (01:30:10):
Was expecting that to happen today.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
Yeah, well you're lucky, pal, because they're not gonna fly
all the way out to you until I dox you,
and then they will. What were we talking about, Oh yeah,
favorites for next year. Sorry, I got caught up in
the imagery of you being drawn and quartered in the
city of Boston. It's very colonialist. It feels like something
that could have happened in the early days, you know,
maybe out in Plymouth, mass right after the witch Hunts

(01:30:34):
of Salem. I do think that Boston is kind of
the de facto favorite because they have everything in place,
like through this next year, they have all of their
core six guys, and they were this dominant mostly throughout
the playoffs without christophs Prezingi's on the floor, which is
kind of crazy. Now I may not pick Boston when
it comes time for our preseason predictions. Maybe I want

(01:30:57):
to get cute. Maybe there's a matchup I really like. Also,
we don't know how the offseason is gonna go. Okay,
so he has the assets Denver, if they maintain KCP,
if they retain him, then to me, they're right there
with Boston. Like they definitely would have been the best matchup. Again,
it's just the Yolkic factor. If Jamal is significantly better
next year than he was this year, that's the team.

(01:31:19):
That's the team right now that is currently in place,
that is on Boston's level in my opinion. But absolutely
they're gonna have a tougher pass. So if you're just betting,
you just gotta think who's gonna get eaten by their
own conference? Where is the cannibalism gonna take place. It's
out West, It's not in the East. Even though I
do think the East will be a good bit better
next year. I did see a question about the twenty

(01:31:40):
fifteen Warriors versus the Celtics, which I think was an
interesting questions. Yeah, but Harrison Bars didn't have an aneurism
that year. But that being said, I don't think that
the Warriors as a team were as ready as they
would be the next year. And so that's close. I mean,
obviously that was an incredibly dominant regular season team, but

(01:32:01):
I do think that they were a bit more vulnerable.
This Boston team is crazy, crazy talented, man, and the
number of ways that they can win on both sides
of the ball really is pretty exceptional. You don't see
teams that are weren't they top two in offensive and
defensive raiding, Like, you don't see that stuff. Again, they
had the net rating of the twenty seventeen Warriors, which

(01:32:22):
was the best of any of those Warriors teams, and
then they had a really really dominant postseason. Like, I
want to give props to this Boston team, and I
do think they have staying power. I think that we
don't want to just go around proclaiming, oh, this is
the team that is going to run the league for
the foreseeable future. But obviously Boston is in an awesome
position to repeat. I thought that Denver was in really

(01:32:44):
good position to run things back last year, but they
lost a valuable piece in Bruce Brown. Boston's not going
to lose that. Boston's not losing anything. So the burden
is on the rest of the league to improve, and that,
of course, will happen throughout this offseason. Logan any final
thoughts series.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
My final piece on Boston that I want to add
on to that is, I mean, what else could have
gone wrong in these playoffs that would have made you
like hop off the bandwagon for next year? Like we
saw bad Jason Tatum games and the Celtics still won.
Like we saw them without christovs Porzingis and they still won.
You know, these are all conditional things where if the

(01:33:24):
Celtics lost the NBA Finals, we would be bringing all
of these things up. But it's like, damn, it didn't
even matter. Like that's where, yeah, you can have your concerns,
but it didn't even matter in this playoff run. So
and another thing, bro, I don't know if there's any
other champion that you can point at and say any
given game, this guy can be our best player and
it's four or five different dudes. Yeah, exactly like that.

(01:33:48):
That's why I would separate Boston and designate them as
the title favorite. Man. Damn, this is probably the best
team we've seen in a while, dude, now that we've
like talked all through that mental exert, this is probably
the best champion in some time. Man.

Speaker 2 (01:34:05):
I think it's a great point that you just made.
They didn't hit their ceiling, Like, when did they really
hit their ceiling in this run? It didn't happen. And
Jason Tatum can play way better. And that's a great
point that friend of the show Jason timf made. I
tweeted something early in this game about how it would
be great if Jason Tatum could make a shot. You're welcome,
Celtics fans. I'm sorry MAVs fans, but I inspired him

(01:34:28):
to greatness in that second quarter. But absolutely he can
be better. Like this is what Jason said. I was
gonna say it myself, but I realized he already said it. Well,
no matter what your opinion of Tatum is, there's no
question that he's better than this offensively, and I would
expect him to be more consistent next running to be
better as a three point shooter. KP is an amazing
basketball player, so the bar will be higher next year.

(01:34:51):
The path will be tougher. I can almost guarantee you that.
But this team does still have another level they can reach.
They shot thirty six percent from deep in these playoffs.
That's a little bit worse than I would expect. I
would expect them to be up around thirty eight thirty nine.
They are a great, great shooting team, so they're in
an incredible position to replicate their success. Congratulations to the

(01:35:12):
people of Boston. If you do want to put Logan
through any sort of medieval torture, just let me know.
I will. I will sell him out for nothing more
than a piece of bread, So you guys, just let
me know. And seriously, thank you to all of you
who have been with us throughout this playoff journey. Thank
you to all of you who are longtime fans. Of
course we love you. Thank you to all of you

(01:35:33):
who joined us on YouTube or just on the audio.
We really really appreciate you, guys. This has been so
much fun covering this postseason, really interesting playoffs. I know
that maybe the finals were a bit of a let
down on account of one team was way better than
the other. But what we saw out West I thought
was really awesome, and Boston is a really impressive champion overall.

(01:35:56):
And more than anything, Logan, it's just been great talking
basketball with you every night. Let's be frank, it's been
really fun. So if you guys are wondering what are
these nerds gonna do throughout the summer months, oh my god,
there's no more basketball. You guys have no idea what's coming.
The summer of greatness is about to be upon you.
So state dialed in. We're bringing trivia like you've never

(01:36:17):
seen it. We're bringing guests like you wouldn't believe. We're
doing lists, We're gonna dive into historical stuff, stuff that
maybe you haven't even thought of. We're gonna have a
whole bunch of fun. We're gonna be ranking things, we're
gonna be playing games, We're gonna be still coming out
with three shows a week, and of course TikTok great
place to find us. Throughout the off season. All of

(01:36:37):
our trivia stuff will be there at nerd Sash. Basically,
everything gets posted to Instagram and Twitter as well, so
follow us across those places for all the short form
content that you want throughout the off season, and of
course we have actual offseason stuff to cover. We have
the Draft coming up in nine days. We are gonna
cover that extensively. Then we have free agency not long

(01:37:00):
after that, we're gonna cover that extensively. So plenty, plenty,
plenty of Nerd SASH content still to come, and we
very much helpe that you guys are there to enjoy
the ride with us, because, as I said, it's gonna
be the summer of greatness, and you don't want to
miss out on the summer of greatness. It's gonna be
a white Boy summer as well. And so if you're
thinking who's the pick for white Boy of the Year
in twenty twenty five, starts with white Boy summer starts

(01:37:22):
with off season training and we are gonna be dialed
into that and everything else. So as always, logan any
final words you want to get in there to end
the postseason.

Speaker 1 (01:37:32):
That was beautiful, man, I almost cried. Also, Yeah, I
love you, I love you guys, Thank you guys for
tuning in.

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):
Yeah, seriously appreciate you guys. So with that, as always,
I've been Carson Braber.

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
I've been Logan Canton.

Speaker 2 (01:37:46):
We will see you guys very soon. This was nerd
Sash

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Nerd Sesh - The Boston Celtics are the 2024 NBA Champions

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Nerd Sesh - The Boston Celtics are the 2024 NBA Champions