Access to Medicine feat. Liz Carmouche

The champion MMA fighter and Marine Corps veteran is no stranger to pain - both dishing it out and taking it.  Hear her take on the ongoing War on Drugs, and what the lack of coherent federal policy means for our community of Veterans, athletes and others dealing with high-level pain management - how she has found positive results managing her own pain with CBD, to the point where her brain scans show a marked drop-off in inflammation since her use of cannabinoids, and even recovered from surgery without any use of traditional pharmaceutical painkillers.  Meanwhile the VA, taking its cues from the Federal policy, is not even allowed to discuss these alternate treatments with its patients, often forcing Veterans down the path of pharmaceuticals with the risk of addiction and other consequences.

A new episode of The War on Drugs will be available every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts.

Veteran suicide remains a serious issue. According to the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, an estimated 17.6 veterans die by suicide each day. Source: VA News

CBD exists in a legal gray area. The FDA has not approved CBD for general medical use and many states heavily restrict or even ban CBD products - including those that can't get you high. Source: PBS News 

Studies show that veterans are at higher risk of opioid overdose compared to the general population. This underscores the urgent need for safer pain management alternatives. Relevant studies: Saving Lives: The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) Rapid Naloxone Initiative; Changing Trends in Opioid Overdose Deaths and Prescription Opioid Receipt Among Veterans; VA Fact Sheet (CSPEAR) on Opioid Use Disorder

According to the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), prescription medications including painkillers, are provided to eligible veterans at low or no costs. Meanwhile, CBD products are not covered by VA healthcare and must be paid for out-of-pocket. Source: U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs; VA Copay Rates 

The War on Drugs is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts and Stand Together Music in association with Signal Co. No1.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Getting to talk to different Marines and just seeing for them,
like when they go to a doctor and doctors like here,
just take this. This is going to help you that
if we had all discovered CBD earlier in life, if
they'd still be around now and they wouldn't be drug addicts,
they wouldn't have lost all their jobs, they wouldn't be
in a mental health care facility because they lost it.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Lava for Good and Stand Together Music present The War
on Drugs Podcast Season two. This season, we're diving deeper
into the real stories behind the War on Drugs, it's impact,
it's failures, and the people offering a better path forward.
Today on the show, Bellator Women's MMA flyweight World Champion
and two times UFC finalists, five year Marine Corps veteran,

(00:41):
Once a Marine, always a Marine, and medicinal CBD education
and Access advocate Liz car Moosh. All Right, welcome to
another episode of season two of The War on Drugs.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Podcast US in two. Yes, this is the season where
we actually talk to people.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Man a lot more pr just not just you, me and.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Yeah, and we actually going to see them.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, we're in Nashville for this interview. Liz carmuche Yes,
US marine wants marine always a marine.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Absolutely mm A fighter, definitely a pain specialist.

Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yeah, Like because we see what she does in the ring,
We see what happens in the fight.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
But also she knows how to dish out the pain.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
So she's a pain specialist in giving and receiving. Yeah,
so if she tells you how to deal with you know,
a good concussed head, you might want to listen. Yeah,
she knows a thing or two about this situation. Yeah,
my pain is joints and self inflicted. I slept wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, you're a tall dude, and like you just you
take a lot of flights and punch me.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Oh I am suing you.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
I am not built for that life.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
But yeah, mental well being in particularly like PTSD with
the Mill Terry community. You know, we talked about in
our opening episode about how the federal government still you know,
schedules cannabis at the schedule one and so that kind
of trickles down on all the other agencies and everyone
else because they have to be speaking the same fenerty line.
So that means, you know, the VA, the Veteran Affairs,

(02:17):
they can't go out and say like yeah, we know
that this is schedule one, Like our buddies over here
at the DA are saying that, but like, don't worry
about it. So their whole thing is they cannot treat
PTSD with any type of cannis. They cannot tell a
state physician who can write a prescription that this individual
has PTSD or something else if the point is for

(02:38):
them to get a medical card. So that's how screwed
up the system is. And Liz and I touch and
you touch on that, you know, through the interview a
little bit. But I think it's important to know that,
you know, it's not just a culture thing, Like these
policies have greater impacts just beyond the criminal justice system,
because now our health departments are housing. It gets into
like are you going to get food stamps or not?

(03:00):
Or a you're gonna get denied because it's in this schedule.
Are you going to get your SNAPNEF. It's like all
these types of things trickle down because of this, And
it's not just because you're in prison. It's because you're
trying to make ends meet, or you have children, or
you have chronic pain and you're trying to treat it.
And so I think that's all the things. And one
thing I'll just touch on as well. You know, we

(03:21):
think of CBD is pretty innocuous. I think a lot
of places, like I live in DC, live in Atlanta,
like they're in grocery stores or in most places. But
a lot of places have started to like recriminalize it.
It kind of was becoming decriminalized in places, so now
they're trying to roll it back a little bit. And
so then that's all these hemp products too, That's what
all these things are. And so again, it's all this
stuff that hurts these businesses, hurts people. It touches everything,

(03:44):
and you don't you don't realize until you just talk
to someone in like their story and you're like, oh,
that's because of that or like that x or like
it's really interesting.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
Yeah, And some of this stuff is down to life
and death or our veterans. You know, SAT rate is
high among our veterans, and.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
More people die of suicide thany ever do in combat.

Speaker 4 (04:06):
Right, yeah, right, And that's terrible to make it all
the way through a conflict and then come and feel
you know, so isolated, all right, so much pain, are
so disconnected.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
The toughest battles are still ahead of you.

Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, yeah, And I think the system kind of pushes
people towards the alcohol, which you know is an issue
with our veterans, or which is people towards the opioids,
which is, you know, the addictive way to temporarily fix
the pain.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
But what do you what are you picking up?

Speaker 4 (04:42):
You're losing the pain, but you're picking up an addiction
that you might not be able to sustain if the
doctor cuts you off. And now you're looking at black
marketplaces for opioids that you wouldn't have even been introduced to.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
And the crazy thing is, again, is twenty at least
twenty nine states categorically say PTSD is something that can
be helped treated with cannabis and can be prescribed for it.
And then you look at the VA's website and it
says under no circumstays should you treat, And it's okay,
what's going on and where is this? Like can we
just be honest?

Speaker 3 (05:15):
Like we have.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Apparently medical professionals on both sides saying completely opposite things
like what's happening here? And so it's just it's really
difficult to kind of comprehend that, particularly with this population.

Speaker 4 (05:27):
Yeah, and I think also Liz is not a person
that runs from anything. She's not scared of anything, right, right,
And you might want to run, but she's laying out
everything that she's seen in her experience. And I think
that's what we focus on a lot this season. Everybody
kind of gets to tell you from their perspective. And

(05:47):
it's not just a perspective of you're in the house
and you're regurgitating what you've heard from other people. These
are people's lived experiences. This is what people have been seen,
what they've been shown, and what they've learned. And if
we're not gonna come back with the knowledge from what
you're learning, and what's the point exactly?

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, just to hear someone at the top of their
game talk about I have taken everything I have been,
I have the whole world in front of me. This
is how I treat my pain. And that's a story
I think a lot of people are gonna get a
lot of value at So we can't wait for y'all
to listen to it and.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Check it out.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
Hey that me and Greg, our guests and sponsors may
sound smart, we may even make some good points, but
at the end of the day.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
We're not medical professional.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Okay, Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast.
Anything we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Got it all right, We're back right now. We got
somebody very special guests. Liz Carameves am I saying it right.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
I want to make seeing.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
What you do in the ring. So no, Mma fighter marine,
former marine man. We're glad always marine stops. Yes, that's
what's up.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
He was in the Marine, did a couple of tours
and I was like, we have Carmes coming on. He
was like, oh hell yeah who rah, Like she's a
bad Yeah, yeah, really thanks for being on the show. Yeah,
thanks it.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, You've got so many angles to this thing, and
you a big advocate for CBD. I think we would
try to get into that a little later, but yeah,
just take us through your your journey, like your story.
If I'm not mistaken. You grew up in Japan, parents
in the.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Military kind of yeah, my dad been in the Air Force,
but my parents split, they got divorced. I was in
Japan from three and a half till twenty Okay, and
so lived off base, worked, went to school, did everything
off base, but a lot of the interactions we had
was on base, and I got to see all the
different branches. I got to see who they were as

(08:00):
they carry themselves as an international representative, right they're representing
the United States in another country. So I got to
see how each of the forces carried themselves there. I
got to see their side when they were with the
families and who they were within a family environment. I
got to see them do physical training and see like
who's the highest standard, and like every time it always
shone through his always the Marine Corps for me, Like

(08:21):
whether it's doing something out in town. You know everybody
parties are twenty one. These are young marines. But you
see somebody a little too drunk. They pick them up,
put them in a TAXI, take them home and make
sure he's safe. And then I watch Air Force like
fall into the streets cause an accident. See what those
are the branches.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
I'm like, yeah, no, no, that's for me.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
And then like physically, like when you think of how
sharp a Marine Corps uniform looks like to me, it's
the most badass uniform. It looks so cool and It's
just I always saw them carrying themselves, and I just
knew that education school wasn't for me. I love learning,
but doing in an environment where I have to like
sit in the classroom be forced to learn certain things,
It's like, I'm not that kid. Yeah, I'm not that kid.
And I knew that about me, and I knew financially too.

(08:59):
For me, the athletics is something that I passion for,
but financially it just wasn't a place for my family.
Was something to'd be able to afford to go away
to college and to be able to pursue that. So
the military really just fit every mark for me, and
that brought me to the United States. When I was
in the Marine Corps, I started to learn about MMA,
fell in love with that, started just doing workouts and
challenging myself, trying new things. And then when I got out,

(09:22):
it was like day one of officially being out of
the Marine Corps, started training and it's almost fifteen years
later and I haven't stopped.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
WHOA did you have that moment of getting punched in
them out the first time? Being like all right, I didn't, man,
I didn't like that, but I can deal with it.
Was that in UFC Marines before.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Probably in the so I definitely got in fights as
a kid. Yeah, I was just like a tiny little kid,
and I was just raised to think that everybody has
a right to play sports and it doesn't matter if
you're a girl a boy. And my dad's like, hey,
you're stronger than most kids. You actually need to dialop
back in, nicer and very protective over my younger sister.
She was like teeny tiny and frail. And then so
then once it was a part of the Marine Corps

(09:58):
and we're like learning how to kind of where to
direct this and do things like wow, this is really
fun and really cool, Like I can take a hit
and I don't nobody wants to take it and always
sit in there like this feels good. Nobody does that.
But you know you realize, like, hey, I'm actually a
lot tougher than other people. I'm not crying about any
of these experience. I got a peogle stick to the
face and fell off the barrier and I'm on the

(10:18):
ground and I'm ready to get back up. And so
I think I learned there that like physically pushing myself,
that I could take a lot more than other people,
and I like challenging myself to the maximum and physically
in every way possible. And then once I got into
MMA and I had like my first sparring sessions. I
think it was my first week ever of training, Like
it probably started like on a Wednesday. Fridays are usually

(10:39):
known for every single class being sparring classes. And I
show up and it's like, hey, you got the heavyweights
and that's who you're gonna spar I'm like okay, Like
weight classes wasn't the thing to me and understand. So
I'm like, yeah, you told me to do this, I'm
gonna do it. And it's like coming out, my nose
is busted, my hair's ripped out, my shirt's torn, and
I was like cool. They're like, yeah, we'll see if
we'll be back on Saturday, and I'm like, well, I'm
at that point. I'm also man like if you tell

(11:00):
me like come back tomorrow, I'm gonna do whatever you say. Hey,
go jump from that car to help you train, like okay.
So they're like we'll see you tomorrow. I'm like, okay,
I'll see you tomorrow. They come back like most people
don't actually come back, and I was like you told
me too, So I'm here, like, if you tell me
to do eight hours back to back, I'm doing eight hours.
So I just found out that that's what I love
doing and more than anything that getting hit is out

(11:24):
of it. It was just the learning experience of I
love then Mma. It's not checkers, it's chess, right, There's
so many pieces on the board that you have to learn.
You have to understand all of them. And that's the
same thing. Like you're learning how to do boxing and
muay Thai and wrestling and judo and all of it,
and then how to combine it all together. And I
love that. It's so challenging and engaging and pushing me intellectually,

(11:46):
mentally and physically that it's just addicting. And I just
couldn't help but just keep you back from more.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
You've gone through things and you're like where everything is about,
like physical thing injuries can happen. I know with my
work doing criminal justice policy, where we see a lot
of people actually kind of lead down a place of
pain management, where it goes to a place of potentially
hope you a addiction or things is after an injury
where I know when I was working on resencing for
a gentleman who is in the Marine Corps towards ACL

(12:12):
or acting, got you know, strung out on pain pills
and had a fake gun in his pocket, try to
rob some CBS once they cut them off and edit
that thing you sayed relatively help you know, pain free.
But you see that. Can you talk about some of
the I guess the things that you've seen in your career,
either to you personally or to other people around that,
where you've seen the way that our system works, what
we prohibit and what we allow, and what we see

(12:35):
as kind of okay and what we don't how that
actually leads to pretty negative consequences for people, not just
for their careers, but their lives as well.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Absolutely. I mean when we talk about injuries, right, you're
already going through combat sports put so much wor and
tear in your body. It's inevitable even if you come
out without injury, Like you have less cartilage, you're in
your strained. You know, you're taking little bone spurs which
like microfractures, and that just calcifies you know, like there's
things that are going to happen and you just can't

(13:03):
get around it. Then you talk about the fatigue, the soreness, right,
concussions and how that alters everybody, Like I could. I
can remember one of my training partners he got knocked
out one practice and comes back to him. We're like, hey,
do you like said no, I want to keep going,
and just a lack of knowledge right to understand, and
so the coaches like, you know, he said he's good.
He's good. Now I understanding, Like that could have been
two concussions back back, he's dead, Like he goes home,

(13:25):
he doesn't wake up right, and then you start to
see like more and more he's altered. He's not sleeping
as well, he's having anger issues. He's stealing and getting
involved in alcohol when you never touched alcohol before getting
involved with drugs. Right, you definitely see changes where people
were like getting speeding tickets that never and there were
safe drivers and all of that. Seeing injuries where somebody

(13:46):
who was a clean person got surgery, had never had
opiates before, and they give to you like, hey, here's
a bottle of twenty five and they advise you like
you don't have a nurse that's staying there to help you, right, right,
So you're trying to limp around your house, or you're
trying to like grab stuff and you only have one
arm and your limit. Nobody is regulating everything. I'm like,
here's the bottle. We'll see you get into the month.
And they taste it, They're like, whoa, this is kind

(14:06):
of cool for the people that like it.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
I can function.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, they feel really good now, nobody.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
You know.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
I didn't really listen that much because I'm just coming
out of surgery and somebody said like, hey, don't drive
when you do these, and they feel so good they
go out driving.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
You definitely see pastime. Yeah right, somebody makes.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
A small mistake and that alters the course of everything.
I saw a fighter who was young, and again he
had surgery. He just come out and nobody was there
to help him, and he does exactly that. He drives.
He gets a DUI because he's on pain meds, driving
under the influence, and he didn't release. I guess it
is on the bottle, but I was kind of out
of it. I didn't listen to anybody, and then loses
his job because of it, loses his license because of it,

(14:43):
can't go do his job right, and then loses his
apartment and then down just goes downhill from there, the
fight career is over. So the one thing that he
was passionate and loving goes away from him, and he
just see their whole life go off course, and people
aren't advising you on alternates, like, yeah, cannabis can be
a great alter to that, so you can do something
that's gonna remove the pain. Like I've had surgeries and thankfully, like,

(15:05):
I hate opiates just it makes me feel so sick.
I don't like how my body feels, so I wean
myself off. They're like, all right, cool, so you're gonna
do this much. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm just
not gonna do the pills and get rid of it
and take it into too the clinic and like give
it to them. I don't have to take these, so
thankfully for me, I don't like them, right, and I'm fortunate,
But that's not so many other people.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
That struggle with that, and so many people find out
they like them in a situation where you know, it
wasn't even like.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
They would go yeah, yeah, something they wouldn't seek out.
They had a surgery, they had an injury where they're like, here,
take this insteady, and so yeah, it's just automatically come
out of it, and nobody's even recommending other options. And
I very quickly weaned myself off of it, and I
was like, I don't I don't want to take this.
I don't like it. Thankfully, my mom came out and
she'd been a nurse, so she helped me. She's like, oh,
you need to take this much. I'm like, I don't

(15:52):
want to. So she's like bringing me pain meds. I'm
like sneaking them in a napkin and just like throwing
them away and not telling her.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Right, and then and then she's like, okay, cool, we
can kind of like dial it down and reduce the hours.
I'm like, ohyeah, already, stop taking it? Yeah what like, yeah,
I stopped taking them. I don't take them, are you no?
But I'm given to you. I'm like, yeah, I've been
throwing in the knapp boy like I don't take some
super fortunate And then I started getting into CBD because
I really wanted to remove the pain. I wasn't right,
there was still pain there, but I was like, Okay,

(16:20):
this is much more manageable and I feel more in
connection with my body. And when I went into the
doctor and like he hate, everything's looking great. You know,
how are you doing on pain? I'm like, yeah, I don't.
I stopped taking the payments in the first week. Like
you can't do that. I'm like, well I did what
I did.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, And like, well, how do.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
You manage the pain and the inflammation? Like everything looks
really good. I'm like CBD. They're like I don't think
that does that?

Speaker 4 (16:42):
You know?

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Mind you this is wow ten years ago, right, and like, yeah,
I don't think so. I'm like, well, that's the only
thing I'm doing is I'm doing CBD for pain and
for inflammation. And I've done all the other protocol you
guys have said, but it's it's CBD. It's hardy do things.
And mind you, had I know more about cannabis, I
probably would have used that as an alternative, because there
was still a lot of pain and a lot of
sleepless nights trying to get through it. And I'm like
I'm just not I feel so sick. I'm giving the

(17:05):
pain meds that they gave me. It's just not even
an option. Trying to like argue with the doctor about
like I'm not going to do pain meds when that's
all they're advising you to do is do that. Was like,
why am I having to argue about my care? Like
you on this bottle also says like risk right, it
could have all of these side effects, and they give
you a print out of all the bad possibilities. I'm like,
you're giving me something and there's like twenty nine things

(17:26):
on here that could go bad, one of which is death.
And we know like the addiction level for people. Why
would you push this on me? And what I have
to argue about not taking this and tell you that,
like you can prescribe it to me, I'm not going
to get it. And I can remember, like I had
another surgery and I come out and I'm like, hey,
I don't take payments and make me really sick. I
don't like them, and I've learned how to deal with

(17:47):
the pain. Like trust me, you're gonna want to take
I'm like I'm not going to and they maybe they're
like you cannot do the surgery and finish it off
if you don't actually take this prescription. Like so I
have to pay for a medication, I'm never going to
eat And I told you guys, I'm like, we'll just
give you a different one that'll agree with you better.
I'm like, no, it's not God, I don't I don't
want to see this, like I'd rather not. And they

(18:07):
didn't even give me an option.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
It's pretty remarkable, like we're almost like forced into these
buckets and you're not allowed to do the other things.
And so I'm curious with your journey with with CBD.
What was that first experience with it? Were you always
kind of you know, hey, I always think this could
be something interested? Were you skeptical just just curious your
thoughts and how did you change over?

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, I was super skeptical.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
You know.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
My mom was pretty open about her cannabis used and
she's like, yeah, I like pot. You know, I was
born this in the fifties. I've lived through sixties and seventies.
I think you can have a healthy relationship with it.
I'm like cool, I'm like, it's not for me. And
I joined the Marine Corps and it's not an option, right, Yeah,
And so the only thing I knew about CBD was
THC base. I'm like, yeah, guys, I can't I fight
for a living and I don't want to be high,

(18:53):
Like it's just not of interest to me. I'm good.
And one of the guys I worked with, he was
a veteran and he had a big connection with CBD.
He's liken't check out this company. It doesn't have You're
not going to get high by using CBD. And he's like,
I was medically discharged from the Air Force. I experienced pain,
and this is what I do to help me sleep,
to help me go through anxiety, and to help me
reduce the pain. He's like going to help so much.

(19:14):
He's like, I don't want to take pain meds and
he's like, my body is so messed up for me
medically discharge. I needed something. And he was a respectable
person who's like leading this group that was helping veterans,
really professionally human being and a guy I really trusted
and liked. So I'm like, Okay, he's not a pothead,
so you know, like I'm gonna trust him what he
has to say about CBD. I started looking it up.
I'm like, Okay, maybe you can do CBD without getting

(19:35):
high and I don't have to worry about stuff. And
I talked to the company and I was like, Wow,
these people nobody's they're not all potheads here and they're
showing me around their business and showing me everything, and
everybody is really functioning. I'm like, I think I've really
misunderstood one what a pothead was, and then two like
CBD and THHC aren't the same thing. So they gave

(20:02):
me some product to try, Like I don't know. I'm like, okay,
but like I'm having trouble sleeping. Pain's really bad. I
tried it out and I didn't expect it. Like I
took the dose that they recommended. I'd laid on the
couch and woke up and I'd been in the same
position because I passed off so hard for the first
time in like a month, and like my back was
hurting because I was like sleeping in a weird position
and I'm like, I slept on the couch like I

(20:22):
don't sleep on the couch, and I'm like that was
like eight hours ago, Like holy crap, and I'm not
in pain other than I slept in a funky position,
like I'm not in pain. Stuff. I'm like okay, And
I tried it again the next day. I'm like, Wow,
this stuff actually really works, and yeah, I'm not high.
There's nothing else coming negative about it. I feel really good.
I feel like I'm managing mental health a lot better. Physically,

(20:43):
I feel better, and because I'm not in pain, I'm
sleeping through the night. All right, Maybe there was some
more truth thiss. So I did even more research to
try and understand the different types of CBD and all
the benefits of it, and the difference between THHC and CBD.
I was like, Wow, this is actually really beneficial. Why
wasn't I doing this before? Like I would have never
I would have really fought with my surgeon about not

(21:04):
using products like that with opiates and just on this instead.
Like if I had known, I'm like, man, I definitely
had a really a misunderstanding.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
And you're someone in training nutrition, going out of doctors
constantly being not one person like let alone someone that's
just an insurance agent, you know kind of then except
hurt their knee, like they're just going in call today
they have no ID. Yeah, I mean, it's it's crazy.
You weren't made aware of you.

Speaker 4 (21:28):
Ever hied tolerance or a threshold probably for pain. So
just imagine other people like the CBD. How much I
guess maybe give us like a scale of how much
it decreased your pain or what could people look too
like equivalent.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
You know, I mean substantially without all the like when
I compared to an opiate, Like when I took opiates,
I still felt the pain. It was just a different
sensation of people, right right, and then it was just like.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
It feels like you don't care then yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
But then also I felt nauseous, I felt groggy, and
then I felt bloated, and you know all these other
like my sleep was weird and it wasn't good. On CBD,
I was clear headed, you know. Inflammation was reduced significantly,
and that was like a big thing too. Is when
you train as much as I do, you have information
all over your body and again and again, like I

(22:21):
do blood work, My blood work markers will show inflammation
levels and it shows a significant production. I'm talking fifty
percent in inflammation workers compared to what it had been. Right,
So like, okay, well that I can clearly see is helping.
I can see in a joint like if my elbow
got smashed in and it's swollen, it reduced down. And
so if I can visibly see no right inflammation, it's

(22:42):
not swollen, it has gone down pain wise, I'm not
focusing on the pain. There's still a little bit of
pain there, but I'm aware of it. It's not distracting
me from it, and it still isn't hurting. I can
go drive and I'm not impaired and go through So
to me, just all around much better option than using
other things that they give you.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah. Me, I feel like you're an expert on it.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
You've done You've done two of probably the toughest jobs,
you know what I'm saying, for the marine and then
to actually fight in a combat sport.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah. So if people are listening to her and they're like,
all right, this is Liz Carmon, she's a marine, she's
a MMA fighter, Okay, that's her. What about what about
just like the typical person, you know, they're going to
the gym a few times a week, they're getting information.
This is not gonna work. I need more. I'm gonna
need something else. Like she can tolerate page, she can
handle it. Like what would you say to them.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, I'd say my mom is a prime example. It's like, yeah,
she used cannabis and she was is okay for like
smoking weed, but CBD wasn't something she was familiar with,
like the polar opposite. I didn't know anything about CBD,
And again she was asking me, She's like, hey, I
remember when you had surgery and you weren't taking on
the obvious, but you got through it. Like what exactly
were you doing to help that? And she ended up

(23:50):
having surgeries too, like she had to have knee replacement
surgery and it didn't work, and so she definitely want
something different because she's home alone really easy to just
like be so focused on the pain and you get
through it. And she tried CBD and she's like, this
actually works really well, Like immediately I noticed information goes
down immediately pain wise, it's almost like fifteen twenty minutes
where I notice a change in it. And she's so

(24:12):
like hyper aware of her pain and in such a
pain state that I mean, it's my mom's seventy two now,
she's just turned seventy three. So like when you know,
if you're like six year old mom and she's saying like, oh,
I'm in pain, like she's not gonna get rid of pain.
That's not somebody you definitely want to reduce it. So
when she says there's a difference to me, that's a
big difference. Yeah, yeah, right, And so that's who I
noticed more because, like you said, yeah, I could. I've

(24:34):
gone through a lot of pain and learned how to,
like to some level, turn that switch off and ignore
it to some degree you have to. And she's somebody
who like doesn't turn that switched off and definitely doesn't
ignore it and notices it. And CBD changed that for
her and she could notice a difference, and that's me
speaks to it.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
No, that's that's awesome. And I think obviously there's there's ignorance,
and there's you know, an education on this and that
the high you know that people just have that. And
then I think a lot of that is because of
our culture and our stigma behind CAMPA that MCBD, that
it's still illegal in a lot of places. There's people
in prison right now, you know, for doing things that
people are making you know, millions for and things like that,

(25:08):
and so there is this stigma. And then also what
happens when you have states that are legal or some
are decriminalized, you get a lot of let's just call
it bullshit on the market. And so a lot of
people's first experience with cannabis is something where they thought
it was this but then there's all this other stuff
in it, or they thought they were going to take
CBD and they got it like their you know, grocery
store down the road. It's like some five dollars tub

(25:30):
And then you're like, Okay, why do you think this
is gonna like it's getting like a five dollars lobster?
Like you think it's gonna be a good lobster? Like,
probably not? And so did you experience that? Have you
seen people like I just know that there's a lot
of there's a lot of crap out there, and a
lot of that is because you know, there's this stigma
around it. Yeah, So I'm curious like did you have
to sort through things that worked for you particularly or
did you kind of have things come around?

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (25:51):
No, No, I definitely had to. Thankfully, like I said,
with my friend, he helped kind of direct it because
he knew the company's producing it, right, So that made
it definitely a lot easier when you get to go
to it and you get to see firsthand what they're
producing and the whole process and what they have. But
then yeah, then once federally everything changed. What was before
you had to go out of your way and they
only had like good quality stuff out there and it

(26:12):
wasn't as popular to then it being oversaturated in the
market where you're like, hey, it's twenty five cents for
the CBD. I'm like, yeah, that's that's probably not it right, right,
But again, having to do research and really see stuff
and try things out, I definitely have done things where
I'm like, hey, I ran out of my CBD and
I made a huge mistake in practice and I got
dropped and because I got my legs kicked out from

(26:32):
under me and twisting my ankle and now my ankle's
sooling this big and I and I have I'm not
going to go do anti inflammatory medication, Like I'm just
not that person. I'm not going to take it anymore.
I'm not putting my liver through that. And I don't
have CBD, so I need something. I'm like, cool, just
went to the store, Like how convenience at the grocery shore.
I'm like yeah, yeah, you know. Now look at it,
I'm like, why is that twenty five milligrams or sugar

(26:53):
in it?

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Right?

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Inflammatory marker and increases inflammation, Like that's not going to
help me, so like, okay, not that, and then it's like, wow,
I'm having to weed through to see all the junk
that's here, canola oil and CBD. Yeah right right, So
it's really it does become very difficult, and most people
aren't looking ingredients in their food, let alone their medication
to really discern what's the good what's the bad.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Right, And then most people too, they're like, hey, I
can get my medication for twelve dollars for one hundred pills,
and it cost me one hundred and twenty dollars to
get good CBD. So very quickly people are being like, well,
I'd rather go cheaper. I'm like, yeah, but cheaper's going
to mess up your body. There's a reason for it.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
Have you seen people that you're like, man, I wish
i'd talked to them earlier, or kind of like changeovers
where you're like they were doing X and now they're
doing Y. Any other examples like that within your career, yeah, fighting, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, absolutely, talking to because I had been in California
for a long time being on a fighting team and
getting to have a lot of military personnel that you
worked with, interact with that you knew they're like, hey,
we see you. We know you're not the type of
person that's going out getting high every day, So what
are you doing because my body's messed up for the
military and I'm about to get out. Getting to talk
to different rains and just seeing for them, they're like okay, difference,

(28:00):
Like thank you so much, Like that that was huge,
And then seeing other people too, where like you said, yeah,
like what if those training partners that they discovered for
trying to conflict with pain when they go to a
doctor and doctors like, here, just take this. This is
going to help you. That if we had all discovered
CBD earlier in life, if they'd still be around now
and they wouldn't be drug addicts, the wouldn't have lost

(28:20):
all their jobs, they wouldn't be in a mental health
care facility because they lost it, you know. And it's like, yeah,
I wish that we had all known better then and
there had been this research and been more information out there,
because maybe not, but I certainly hope that that would
have made a difference had they had that option.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, very at least being exposed to it. For every person,
there's going to be a different path and that can
be the right path for people. But the fact that
you don't even gain the information, like I know, for
like veterans' affairs, you can't even go to them. They
can't talk to you about cannabis. They can't even write
you a recommendation saying that you have PTSD if the
purpose is to give it to like a state physician,
which is you tell people that it's absolutely freaking crazy,

(28:59):
but you don't even get the option to hear that.
And then so where are you gonna go? You're gonna
go to other sources of information. And obviously you have
a good head on your shoulder and you're looking at
things and you have a team around you, but you're
just sitting on the couch at home trying to figure
it out, scrolling through and read you know, all this stuff.
It's confusing and scaring. You're probably going to get something
that's not greater poor information.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
So yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, And like I said, when
it comes to you have the option of having a
product that's super cheap, right, Like you can get opiates
and it's two dollars and you get twenty five pills
that they prescribe you. But you can't be prescribed CBD,
and you can't you want to have to spend one
hundred and twenty dollars and you're doing the math like,
well this is easier. Want to just do this instead

(29:39):
and then don't have to research and look things up
and have to It shouldn't be that way. It it's
so much cheaper to get these things that you know
are hurting you rather than something that's helping them.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
As far as with the veterans, have you seen like
movement from like the top.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
I see with the VA that they still fall under
the conflict of federal enforcement. Right, So because federally we
still learn this great of what THC, CBD and everything
else can be used, they're not vocalizing any of that,
and so unfortunately it's still pushed that the main source
of what they're offering the military and veterans is still opiate's.
It's still motor and it's still flex role for a muscle. Right.

(30:16):
And then I do see that there are certain people
that really is just based on states to state. We're
still in that conflict where I've heard some people where
they're like, hey, you use CBD, and there's kind of
like they can't say anything. These give you the thumbs up,
and then you can be in a different state where like, no,
you can't use that, those are drugs, and I'm like, whoa,
what are we just like going from California to Tennessee
and the hearing, I'm like, I didn't think that we

(30:36):
went back in time and it was just such a
different scene. And the issue always run into is like
whoever's in charge is on a rotation two to four years,
whatever their term is. You could have somebody who at
the end of the term is starting to see differences
right and evolve with their policies and try and enforce
new things and change things. But then the moment they
start to make change, they're two to four years is up,

(30:57):
somebody else comes in with the whole different agenda. They're
completely ahead of everything and they're like I see these
involvements in these changes happening, or they're completely against it.
And that's always the difficulties when with the military, Like
even I can remember being in the Marine Corps and
you have we have somebody who's in charge, right, they're
in charge of all the Marine Corps. They come in
they're like, our policy is a marines are allowed to

(31:17):
have tattoos, but only like a three court sleeve. Next
person comes in, they go absolutely no tattoos whatsoever, and
everybody that gets tattoos gets kicked out. Okay, so two
weeks ago before you changed, we were just everybody went
out and got three court sleeves like yeah, sorry, you're
out now, and something like that. That really shouldn't have
I understand, but shouldn't really have a plan in things.
They're inappropriate tattoos, which has always been the thing. But

(31:40):
and that policy just tattoos is everything from medical like
CBD being allowed, and then the next person comes in
they go absolutely no CBD. You've got to you got it,
absolutely ridiculous. And so whereas one person making changes and
making headwig in a positive way, somebody else slides in
as a whole different thought process. And so it's really
hard to keep up with it because the VA operates

(32:01):
for the military, so in that same sense, they're evolving
and rotating the same way that the military does. So
it's really hard. And I see a lot of other people,
like veterans like myself that have gotten out and they're
trying to go to the VA and say like, hey,
this needs to change, like these are the benefits that
we're having. And they're trying to talk to people, but again,

(32:21):
you know, like they're making headway. They're going working the
way up the structure to talk to more people, talking
to the next head above them and above that. But
then everybody changes and pre people are talking before they're
like yeah, absolutely, we hear what you're saying. You want
to make changes, all those people are gone, right, And
so it's really hard to make those movements, and to
make those adjustments, it's got to start from much higher

(32:41):
than that to be able to really have an effect.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Who's the man?

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, in this situation, I think you know, we're gonna
have to go to like higher government. We're talking like presidency.
We're talking people within Congress, within the Senate. Those are
the people that need to make those bigger changes because
they're ultimately it's Congress and the Senate that has overseeing
over them to make those changes. Right, So somebody changes
there and it trinkles down everybody's changes. So I think

(33:05):
if we can at the beginning of somebody's term, get
to them and be able to say like, hey, these
are the positive effects that we think we could help
introduce into the va that's when it starts to happen,
because that's when policies change. And unfortunately, what I see
with the va IS is after so many losses like
suicide within the veteran community and raising awareness on that,

(33:27):
you know, like you lose a few veterans of suicide,
that should be enough.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
We should be like, hey, we should do something's going
on here, not like hey.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Years of losing people to realize that what we're doing
now isn't working and we need to change things.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
And you were talking about some of the advocacy that's
coming from the military community now. And I worked a
little bit in Kentucky where Dakota Meyer was with someone
who worked with a Republican governor to talk about, you know,
bringing plant based medicines there to fight mental health and
opioid addition. Because he said, you know, I'm a Medal
of Honor, you know, recipient. I did multiple tours here.

(34:00):
I've lost so many more people back home to suicide
than I ever did on any of my tours over
I rack of Agans. So when you hear that, you
can't just say oh, okay, moving on like that means something.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
I think it's simply looking at the numbers, like if
we look at how many deuis happen because of people
being under the influence fights, just altercations that happen, violence
that happens. Let's look at those numbers that are involved
with alcohol and then look at all the numbers of
these altercations that happen under the influence of THHC. I
bet it's a lot most Like we said, most people,

(34:31):
if they smoke weed, they haven't edible.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
What do they want to do?

Speaker 1 (34:33):
They want to veg out and they want to chill.
They're not looking to go to a fight, whereas people
ge get drunk. I know that I did too when
I was in the Marine Corps. I got drunk like yeah,
fighting socks fighting, so yeah, absolutely, you want to punch
me like cool for no reason. Next day be like
why did I do that? Like you're not hearing the
people say the same thing, like why do oh I
ate too much food? Like if nothing else alone, let's
just look at that find you. I understand. You want

(34:55):
to restrict it. You want to make taxes, you want
to make money. Let's just look at those numbers. Loan
about live's loss altercations, money lost for having to give
these people tickets, having to just everything there for violent
acts destruction that's done the businesses because somebody was drunk
and under the influence as opposed to people under the
influencyc just compare those two numbers, and why why would

(35:18):
we not say yes to one ding advice the other? Like,
I'm ingesting unnecessary calories. I don't feel good after doing this,
whether there's decisions I made under the influence or the
next day, I don't feel good. So I finally came
to a point where I'm like and then doing more
recent I'm like, wow, I was really really bad for you,
but it's so socially acceptable, And I'm like, man, since
I stopped and I don't even know when that was,

(35:39):
but since I stopped drinking, I've never had to like
argue with people so much about why I don't want
to drink. Where I go to any public event and
they're like, hey, I'm like, oh, no, thank you, on
to drinking.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (35:48):
What's wrong with you? I'm like, I don't want to
drink and like, just have one. I'm like, I don't
want to have one. It's just one, You'll be fine.
I'm like, I don't. I'm like, okay, but I've never
like I've had somebody offer me wee. I'm like, no,
I'm good, like all right, cool, no worries. Yeah, Like
I never have to argue about that, but I have
to argue my points to say, no, I don't want
to drink and you are.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
I'm not going to push it.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
Yeah, do you want to hear this? No, that's a
thank you that means this word for me.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
But like, and being in events where people are like,
I can't trust somebody that doesn't drink, like really because
I almost can't trust somebody that can drink, right, because
how often the next day you're talking to something, they're like, yeah,
I don't remember saying or doing that, right man, that
that's not trustworthy, and it's it sucks. I'm like, hey,
somebody wants to drink, that's your choice. If I don't
want to drink, that should be okay too. I'm not
judging you one way or the other. Yeah, And it's not.

(36:35):
It's so culturally, it's such a part of our culture
now that you're wrong if you don't drink.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, I'm curious with sports leagues have always they've been
very similar kind of the van and on the other
side of the private sector area you have sees as archaic.
I think people see it. They always are on the
forefront of a lot of things on how to make

(37:01):
things work. Like you look during COVID, they were the
first people to try to figure out how to open
back up, and they were very you know, much more
I think socially driven in a lot of ways on
social rights and drug policy and things like that. Accepting
being open to that. Can you talk about a little
bit your experience, like dealing with mixed martial arts and
how you've seen that and maybe maybe seening parallels to
other athletes that you see in other leagues where they're

(37:23):
much more restrictive on these types of thing are not
as supportive. I'd be really curious about that.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah, Definitely in the early days, like Andrew asadav when
you got drug tested, was no THC. There's no drugs
of any sort, even if you're prescribed to medication, Like
even if you had surgery, you still have to submit
paperwork and doctors notices to say that you're approved to
do that, right, and most of the time you're not
thinking like you just came on doctor's office round, like yeah,
I'm going to sbmit all this paperwork to Soden to
get approval to say like hey, I'm supposed to take

(37:48):
this right. And then that changed to where the only
rule was you couldn't have teasing your system ten hours
before you fight and leading up to it, so it's
within a certain window. And then talking to another friend
that's a professional NBA player, they're like, yeah, no TFC
at all. Ever doesn't matter the time. It does not
ten hours before I have a competition. It's not twenty four,
there's no ever. And like CBD and now you're seeing

(38:10):
like you said, you can see it as being one
of the major parts within the cage where it's on
the pad and it's a CBD company and like you
show up to your fight and in your goodie bag
where you have like their customary T shirt and also
there's also CVD. Like a huge difference between like we're
gonna test you, don't you dare have CBD in your body,
to hey, we're gonna give you this c like wait,
wait is this fawn that ten hour window? Like I'm
I actually allowed to do this, So a huge huge

(38:32):
change and again not necessarily them advocating for induction how
it helps you. It's not educating you on how it
helps you. But going from its band you're not allowed
to have it at all to now it's a part
of your your gimme bag, right, you can have it.
It's a huge difference. And that's still not in public sports, right,
You're still not seeing it in the major leagues where
they're allowed to have these things and they have those
same level of a lack of restriction. It's still very

(38:55):
much a no go and they're not allowed to do it.
And still in the military too.

Speaker 4 (38:59):
Yeah, you would want something that kind of helps out
or prolongs the ability of whatever sport or whatever player
it is. Like you know, like Okay, if this dude
recovers better with CBD then getting on these opioids, drinking,
doing something dumb, you know, like how much of that

(39:19):
is a factor? How much like with anything where you
might get a concussion, Like, is there any research on that?

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, there's there's not research on it. Because I was
curious about that too, just to see because if it's
reducing inflammation, then theory some of the damage is done
from brain damage, is inflammation within the brain right now, right,
and I know that I'd gotten dropped really bad in practice,
like it got a really bad concussion, and try to
do everything from omega acids and trying to make sure

(39:45):
that I have my omega threes, doing everything from healthy
fats to fish oils to all the like allions made
mushrooms and things like that. So trying to ingest as
much as that doing pressure treatment where they push in
the chamber right. And then the other thing I did
was like, oh, I upped my CBD because I kind
of fallen off. I was like, oh, no, no big deal.

(40:06):
Like I'm like, oh, I made sure. And I'm a
part of a study that does brain scans and if
you get a concussion, if there are markers in your brain,
they're not getting it's in your blood and because you
have increased information in your blood and they can see
like essentially scars issue in your brain is permanent. It
doesn't go away you get a concussion. It's not like,
oh you just magically heel for it. The majority of
information hills, but the scars there's like a cut, like

(40:28):
you get cut, it heals, but you still have the scars.
It's the same thing. So they know if you have
a concussion. And I went in, I did the scan
stuff and they're like, cool, so did you have you
retired from fighting? I'm like, excuse me, Like with your brain,
it's just like it's healing and some of the scars
are not there that were there before. Like I'm like no, Actually,
it's kind of crazy because about three months ago, I

(40:50):
got dropped really bad and I had a headache for
like a week straight. And they're like no, I'm like yes,
Like it's not a question, it's not a doubt. Like
I'm so I just fought. We scheduled this because I
just had a fight, and you have to wait so many,
like thirty days before you can go and start doing
this testing again. And they're like, oh wait, you did
say that. They're like it doesn't your scams don't make
any sense, Like what are you doing. I'm like, the

(41:12):
only thing I can say is a clean diet. I
don't drink anymore in CBD. Right, It's like we might
need to add that as some of the research because
this doesn't make sense. Like looking at it, you're like
back backwards, You're you're faster, you're sharper. Your scams are
healthier than they were last time.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Is that the Cleveland brain study. But a lot of
the NFL players are amazing. Yeah, OK, that's really fascinating.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
That's good to know.

Speaker 4 (41:36):
Like you said, it needs to be more more research
on that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Yeah, because that's that's impressive.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
And maybe it's just for me, you know, I don't know.
Just like I know that like if we wait until
the body in the brain are fully developed and you
ingest drugs or alcohol, the likelihood that you get addicted
goes down, and the likelihood that you use those products
also goes down. And then the impact that it has
on your brain is it's not forming because it's already formed.
So like your level, it doesn't compromise. Like you have
a kid that smokes sweet at thirteen and then is

(42:04):
smoking weed all the time. Their brain is altered because
of that, right, right, like twenty six years old, that's
your first time trying anything. Your brain isn't really altered.
Still has effects, but not the same, right, So I
don't know if maybe just because I had never done
cbdtch HE or anything until I was in my thirties,
if that influenced it, right, and why it had a
positive effect or other than a negative effect.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
And then again those are other parameters that they'd have
to consider when doing that study. Is the age and
the development of the brain and how that kind.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
Of right and like you said, your relationship with it.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah, thank you so much for your time today, Liz.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
This has been awesome.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
We want to keep your goys long But just one
last quite kind of ending on a note of kind
of moving looking forward. Where do you see kind of veterans'
access moving forward? Where have you seen where we really
need to start focusing what can people do to help
and where can people get more educated? Just any thoughts
that you have kind of on the next two five years,
you know, kind of moving forward then and access to

(42:58):
this type of care.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, I think for veterans, like it's officers need to
step up to the role more, right, Like most of
the people I know that are stepping up and they're
approaching the VA and they're trying to make change. They're
in former enlisted and it's just one there's there's a
niche market with with the officers where they have such
a good community. One they're at the top, right, so
the top is going to make connections to the other

(43:21):
people at the top and be able to speak off
Like you aren't seeing senators and congressmen. They're former and listed,
they're former officers, right right. So in that same sense,
if we can get the officers to speak up and
to make the differences and to approach, whether that's the
listed personnel former and listed, the talks home. But it's
the officers that need to use the connections that they
have to be able to make the change and to
reach out to their congressmen, their senators, the higher ups

(43:43):
that they have. They're in charge and leading the way
to be able to start implementing these new policies and
making new change to help the veteran community.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Awesome, Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
Yeah, yeah, no, And we and we need that. We gotta.

Speaker 4 (43:53):
We got to treat our veterans better, like you said,
people that put in willing to do that sacrifice, you
know what I'm saying, Like they deserve the best when
it comes to treatment and like their mental health and
all that type of care. So yeah, I love what
you're doing. Appreciate you. Yeah, amazing, You're bad ass. You
know this, you know what I'm saying. So Okay, this

(44:15):
is the last question I have. If I ever get
hit in the face, what is the best way to
deal with it?

Speaker 3 (44:21):
And where do I need to go? Mentally?

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Oof, that's you know, that's where it comes into a
fight or flight response, because.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
I'm thinking flight. I'm thinking flight. Do I have Do
I have a way out?

Speaker 1 (44:32):
But that's not the wrong approach, you know. Like even
even I've been out in town hanging out with the friends,
a drunk altercation happens and they're like, hey, lizen like,
I'm not the bouncer, I'm not coming in like the
higher yeahs to be a fight, but I'm like, it doesn't, Like,
why do I want to jump into a fight? There's
no point in that. I'll be like, hey, calm the friends,

(44:54):
let's walk out here, let's get the way for the altercation.
I don't think that that walking away from the situation
is the wrong I think if you're trying to protect somebody,
like if somebody attacks your son, yeah, you know, try
and safely get him out of there if you can
and run away. But if that's not because you're carrying
a child, like I know my eight year old son,
he's a lot denser than he looks. He's a scrawny
little kid, and then you pick him up, like, how

(45:14):
are you seventy pounds? You look like you're like thirty pounds, right,
So like moving seventy pounds is a lot harder than
you think it is. So like trying to get them
out there, They're like, you're going to face situations where
you do have to fight, but I think more often
looking for the safe way to exit that situation. It's
the best way to go.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Liz, thank you again. Is there a place that we
could direct folks at all? Is there any website anything
you want to play?

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (45:39):
I do need to get a website go, And I've
been saying that for years. I still end up never
doing it. From the most part, I'm on millions and
that's kind of a way that people can help give
back to me. And then the biggest source for social
media is Instagram, Instagram perfect.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Yeah, and where can we find you on Instagram? On Instagram?
I am gorilla girls.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
It's awesome.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Well, thank you again. Yeah, Liz is an awesome guys.
Check out Liz Carmoush. Go to a girl rilla on
Instagram to her and thank you again.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Thank you appreciate it all right, welcome back, special thanks
again to Liz Carmouche. Yes, awesome interview. I've always heard
that Cleveland Brain study. I didn't really know what was
about it was participating. I thought that was like really fascinating,
Like she was just talking about.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
If that's not enough to get you on board with
at least the research aspect of it, at least the
trial and experimental aspect of it, I don't know what
it is.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
I don't And Liz is like the most like straight
level being a marine was like emboldened her by like
she is, like she was very skeptical of this at first,
and she had a lot of the questions I think
a lot of people do, like is it addictive? Is
it's like it's gonna make me sleepy? Or is going
to make me tiree yes, exactly. Those are all valid
questions that we don't really have like a place to

(47:00):
just like discover and like understand and being able to
talk to your doctor about it or something like that.
And so I think that was really important to show, like,
I mean, these are skeptics that are coming through that
the height of their control. This isn't someone that's just
trying to have a good time. They're trying to prove
themselves better, themselves, continue to do their profession and the
passions that they love. And I think a lot of
people can resonate with that. That's I definitely did, And

(47:21):
I've talked to my parents about you know, guys, they've
gotten older, like you know, using CBD, and they've had
those same questions, and so I'm happy for them to
be able to listen.

Speaker 4 (47:29):
To this, And like we were saying, is having those conversations,
is being able to put it in a way where
they can understand it. And sometimes you need it, You
need to hear somebody else lay it out in a
way with the credentials to make it valid exactly.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
I really just I thought that was such an important
conversation to have because it just again it shows not
only the things that were we know about and have
knowledge and capabilities to explore more on CBD and on
HEMP and what works and what's not. And then we
also at the same time have states trying to claw

(48:07):
these back. Veterans can't even go to their their VA
doctor and talk about this a lot. It's just this weird,
like again complicated piecemeal. We're almost living in multiple universes
and worlds like within this like policy and it's just
again it's a recurring theme Ticklar with cannabis, as like
we live in this kind of gray area of the
world with it.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
Yeah, and it doesn't make sense, And I think that's
what we're doing a good job of highlight it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
Yeah, if alcohol is not that effective of opioids, if
you're not looking at that like it's detrimental when you
have the facts right in front of you, Yeah, then
what are you doing?

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (48:44):
You know, something Liz was talking about that really resonated
was that you know it with the veterans, it's going
to take the officers, it's going to take those people
to kind of like move through. And if you have
veterans in your life and people that are in the military,
they're not getting a lot of this information from the
sources that we may think they would be. So maybe
you could be that or at least like open up

(49:05):
to them and say, like, what's your story, what's going on?
Because a lot of people are struggling and hurt and
may not know Avenue's resources or anything else going out there.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Yeah, talk to the people you have in your family
and community, share this episode with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Liz also talked a lot about how whenever she
would go to the doctor after having surgery or anything,
they would try to push her to those pain medications,
the painkillers, and she was adamant about I'm not taking those.
I do CBD, this is how I recover, and just

(49:38):
how important it is for the medical community to study
this or take her seriously. She says she dealt with
so many doctors that didn't believe that she wasn't taking them,
and that there's no way she could be here with
that kind of pain without going to an opioid or
the traditional go to painkillers.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Yeah. Again, this is not going back to some of
the roots that we dug in season one. Misinformation about
some of the benefits of potentially some of these things are,
how harmful they are or not. A lot of that
research is driven in the dirt, and then it doesn't
get research at places, and we still need so much
more research, and like I said, the ignorance of a

(50:18):
lot of what CBD is compared to THC and what
they do and what they don't. It leads to really
bad policy, and it leads to people filing bills to
remove the whole thing. And you know, you're like, you're
going to do this to things that don't even make
people high. But again it's the lack of research and
education and it's ignorance. And I think that stems in

(50:39):
a lot of the medical where they are under a
guy's and regulations on what they can and cannot say
about certain things. They can't talk to you about this
if they if they're not allowed to or that or
this diet. Not even just with like cannabis, it's with
other things, like there are things that are allowed to
pbscriber and they're allowed or not because those are on
those regulations. A lot of that comes from the prohibition
that we have on cannabis. It is a schedule one drug.

(51:01):
It is a Schedule one drug, and all the other
ones are prehbaitive. It's MDMA. You know you need all
these special and it really gets into that, and again
it just makes all this that much more frustrating when
you hear these stories of people succeeding and others cannot because.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
Of what else right not even given the option right exactly,
and that's why these stories are important, man, I mean,
get them out there so people do have the language
and the capacity to talk about it with their love one.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
No, absolutely, thank you, Liz, And again we're going to
keep rolling for the next episode, episode four. Another amazing
kind of unique experience and something that's kind of coming up.
We talk about, you know, being California sober and what
that means with Marcus King, who is an amazing i'll

(51:47):
just say, a southern rock musician, just overall amazing. We
got to interview him here in DC, and then I
got to go to his concert he was playing that night.
My wife and I went and saw some of the folks.
Just an incredible artist, an incredible story and one that
again I think will resonate with a lot of people
coming from a small town, not a lot of resources

(52:08):
out there, what does that look like? And again you're
gonna have to listen to it to find out. But
this is when I did solo as well, so you're
gonna learn the same time.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
Let's do it. I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah, awesome, that's the Again, it's special.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
And those War on drugs, the War on Drugs is
a production of Lava for Good and Stand Together Music
and association with Signal Company Number one. Stand Together Music
unites musicians and their teams with proven change makers to
co create solutions to some of the most pressing issues
in our country, including criminal justice, for foreign addiction, recovery,

(52:40):
mental health, education, free speech, and ending the War on drugs.
Learn more at Stand Together Music dot org. Be sure
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at Lava for Good. You can follow Clayton English on Instagram,
NX at Clayton English, and you can follow Greig Laude
on Instagram and on ex at Greg Latt. Executive producers

(53:04):
Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and Collette Wintraub. Senior
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Entertainment Head of Marketing and Operations, Jeff Cleiburn, Social Media
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(53:27):
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