May 6, 2025 • 43 mins
Shinedown frontman Brent Smith knows addiction. He’s lived it, fought through it, and come out the other side. But his journey wasn’t a straight line—and that’s the point. In this episode, Brent talks about breaking free from one-size-fits-all recovery models, the role of community in overcoming addiction, and why drug policy needs to be about support, not punishment.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
He can be angry at an addict all you want,
but if you choose to do it that way, you're
never going to be able to open their eyes.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Lava for good and stand together. Music Present The War
on Drugs Podcast Season two. This season, we're diving deeper
into the real stories behind the War on Drugs, its impact,
its failures, and the people offering a better path forward
today on the show. Lead singer and songwriter of multi
platinum rock band Shine Down, authors of nineteen number one
(00:30):
hits on the Billboard Mainstream Rock Charts, the most ever,
including Atlas Falls, Save Me and Second Chance.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Outspoken mental health.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Advocate Brent Smith, and his longtime manager, friend and confidant,
acclaimed record promoter and manager Bill mcgaffe. All right, yeah,
another episode War on drug season two.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yes, real people, real stories, real solutions.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
And the real Clayton English, the real Greg. There we go.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, not the AI version, no, which probably would be
next season.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
We get like one hundred and fifty organs.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
This is what they've been doing. This is why they
put their face mapping us right.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Now probably, But anyway, Yeah, amazing interview. I got I
did this one solo. I saw Brent Smith and his
his manager Bill mcgathe. Brent is from a Shinedown, one
of the most successful bands of all time, and they
were getting ready to gear up for a show that
they're going to do later on at MSG, so we
were able to catch him up there and it was
(01:35):
a great, great conversation.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
You know, he's one of literally one of the biggest
stars in the world, and he is the most humble,
you know, honest, like just content, just an amazing person.
You know, there is this story that comes up and
it really feels like, you know, this kind of Hollywood
story of you know, Brent staring down you know, success
and fame potentially or is he can allow this addiction
to maybe you know, you know, divert his career. And
(01:59):
again it's addiction coming in all shapes and forms and
what recovery is for some and what it is and
for others. I don't want to give much away, but
it really is one of these like really really cool
short that I had no idea about and so can't
wait for y'all to listen to it. And without any
further ado, Brent.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Smith, Hey there, me and Greg, our guests and sponsors
may sound smart, We may even make some good points,
but at the end of the day, we're not medical
profession Okay, Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast.
Anything we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
(02:37):
consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Got it, Okay, Welcome back to the War on Drugs.
We have some very special guests here. Brent Smith, creator Shindown.
Being a thirty seven year old kid from the suburbs,
Shinedown was a big part of my childhood growing up
and throughout the year, So welcome to the show and
rate of promotion legend Bill mccathe's here as well, and
(03:03):
so thank you all for coming to the War on
Drugs podcast.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
I appreciate it, happy to be here.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
First album comes out in two thousand and one.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
Is that right? Is the debut album circulated?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I think that it was, Yeah, roughly two thousand and one,
two thousand and two.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
I'd have to go.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Back and like check whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
the first album I think it was.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Was it last year? Yeah? Last year?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So no, it would have been two thousand and three
because it had its twenty year anniversary last year.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
It was like at Deluxe ou I remember, yeah yeah
Spotify Yeah okay, yeah, yeah, that's right, okay, oh yeah,
so yeah, that'd be twenty years from there. And so
so you all toureds immensely. I was kind of like
three year stuff like, I mean, it was over two
hundred gigs a year. I might probably under selling it
at this point.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
No, I mean that's what that's we had to do that,
you know, I mean it was all built off I
mean honestly, man, it was built off of the radio
and just relentless touring like to the point. But you're young,
your twenties, you're in your twenty and you know, we
weren't shy like with the work ethic, right. We were
definitely on drugs, yeah, and a lot of them, but
(04:10):
you could have never said that we were lazy.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Two hundred so much shows and travel and obviously you're
getting off. It's not like you're in private jets or anything.
I'm assuming tour bus and and all that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
And so was drugs.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And alcohol a big part of kind of that early
start before y'all started to make it.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, and then how did it kind of change when.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Resources start to come You're going through this their success,
there's probably there's you know, there's every vice that you'd
ever want, it's women, booze or anything. Do you feel
that was just kind of the ramp up, like the
availability and everything, or was it more now looking back,
is it the stress of the situation?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, kind of like thirty thousand foot perspective. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
How do you think that like change crossover when you
guys started to make it or at least get some recognition, notoriety.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I think what happened was that there for a minute
in the beginning, it was fun and then it got
then it got not fun, it got deadly. And also,
I will be honest with you, like we were on
a trajectory. Someone once told me, they said, you have
(05:17):
your whole life to make your first record, and then
if that first album is successful, you're going to get
six months to do your next one.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
And it was the speed.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Of which, like honestly, the drugs and the gasoline of
the you know in the diesel, you know, of the
alcohol it fueled like you can't slow down, you can't stop,
Like we got to get in because the first record
was successful, by a lot of people's surprise.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
If you will.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
But it was just out of pure tenacity that we
made it successful. And then the second record it was
exactly that. It was about six months like get in there,
get it done, get back out on the road. So
the drugs were the fuel inside of that too, not
all the time, but like all of a sudden, it
became not fun. And the other thing that was happening
was all these bands. Me and Bill were talking. Me
(06:04):
and Bill were talking about this the other day. There
were so many great bands, dude, that came out during
like two thousand and three to two thousand and six.
They're not a band anymore because a lot of them died. Yeah,
they died of overdoses, man.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
And that was I mean, right during the opioid epidemic,
as it's ramping up, like oxyconton, We're starting to come
come into play and then so I'm sure that was
a huge part of it.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
I could name the artists that we were working with
tourm with that they went in to get them for
sound check and they were dead in their bunk.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Dude. It was brutal, and I mean it was it was.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And so then you're dealing with this whole thing of
like your friends. You're watching them just I mean, and
they did. They were like dropping like flies. But then
I look at myself in the mirror, and you know,
I'm still snorting cocain, yeah, you know, or I'm still
and I was massive.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
When drugs are we talking about?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It was massively addicted to oxycon.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
You know.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
I was doing four.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Hundred milligram up my nose a night by two thousand
and five, two thousand and six. It was not pretty, yeah,
you know. And inside of this it became something where
you could take like a two week break sometimes and
you can kind of get yourself together and you'd sober
up for a minute, and then you get back out
(07:19):
into the lifestyle and it's right there, right there. It
doesn't go anywhere, and then all of a sudden, you're
starting to get recognition.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
I always made a point though, about something specifically.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I never went into a studio session high, Like I
never got up on a microphone when I'm in there
to like sing the actual track and when I'm writing
the material.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
I was never I was never high in sessions.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
But I used to have this idea that I had
to be I used to think I have to be
messed up in order to write messed up songs or
like this really heavy subject matter and what have you.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I got to put myself in that owl.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Now, I got put myself into it because I got
to live it in order to be able to talk
about it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Was that kind of an used to feel justified in
doing it, or more so, he felt like it was helping.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
It definitely wasn't helping.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
That's a combination that's called rationalization. But we are closer,
I would think than most artists and managers. I mean,
because he's more than an artist on my roster. He's
helped me. He's my partner, he's my best friend. I
love him, you know, he's my brother, he's you know,
(08:30):
and I don't even care how he looks at me.
Sometimes I feel like he looks at me like I'm
an older brother. Sometimes I think he looks at me
as maybe kind of a dad, you know.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Maybe I always look up to him though.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, either way, either way, I was.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
Yeah, I had no idea he was doing that much.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
I was gonna say, but did you see anything?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well he came to Los Angeles during the sound of
Madness album and saved my life.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Okay, yeah, let's let's talk about Yeah, so there's there's
a moment here. Let's talk about that. Oh you're flying
in there. What did you see when you were Well?
Speaker 7 (09:03):
What I started with was I got a call from
an incredible friend of ours and he called me. And
it wasn't like, hey, listen, man, you know we got
a little trouble here in the camp.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
I need you to get down here.
Speaker 7 (09:19):
He literally shrieked at me, get your ass to Los Angeles.
He said, you're guitar player ode and fell off his stool.
He said, I don't know what's going on with Brent,
but they are messed up, right, And so then I
(09:40):
immediately went to my wife and said, well, you know this,
I got to go. So I booked a ticket that afternoon,
flew to Los Angeles and I got there just in
time too, because you'd had that situation with the rental
car and you sideswiped like three.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
Cars, three part cars.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
He was going to Chris Lord Algae's studio to listen
to a mix and I hit three part cars because
I was high.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
I ran, I ran a red light.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
He was so high.
Speaker 7 (10:13):
But yet he is so good a functioning addict, right,
He was so good with his words and always husband
that he had talked to police out of.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Uh going to jail doing what police do.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Yeah, yeah, getting away with hitting three part cars. Yeah,
that's that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Way like it sounds very rock and roll and it
sounds like, you know, kind of you know, cinematic in
a way.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Dude, I could have killed someone. Yeah, you know what
I mean. When I think about it now, I'm in
awe that a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Of times too, that that I've been so lucky to
still be here. But you know, the fact of the
matter was that that was a real thing that happened.
And the other side of that, though, is that's when
Bill got out there, and what it was was it
was more of you know, I looked at Bill as
I felt like everybody was a narc and Bill didn't
(11:13):
come out there with an attitude where he was pointing
a finger at me. He was more like, Hey, I
got an idea. Let's take tomorrow off, but let's take
it off, meaning like, let's not drink, let's not do
anything like that. Let me take you out to lunch,
Let's go out to Santa Monica, we'll go shopping, or
we'll just get out, you know, what I mean, And
he just he was able to treat me in a
(11:35):
way where he wasn't coming out there to you know,
be angry at me per se. He was trying to
also figure out what was actually happening because.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
He knew there was a lot riding on this.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And I think Bill understood that this was the best
music that a he had heard from any of the
artists on his roster.
Speaker 7 (11:54):
No doubt, but but second chance.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
You know, there were seven singles off a sound the Madness.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But he was also like, none of this matters if
he's dead, right, you know what I mean? So we
got to figure out how to do this in a
way where we can actually bring him to the forefront,
meaning me, and get me help and you know, understand
what's actually going on here, because you can be angry
at an addict all you want, but if you if
(12:24):
you choose to do it that way, you're never going
to be able to open and open their eyes.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
And so he really treated me as best he could.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Understanding also too, I remember one night you said to me,
you were like, this has got to be hard, Like
you got all these people that need you to be great,
They need you.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
Everyone's waiting on you to be brilliant.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
And nobody had said it to me like that, because
I hadn't complained about that, but that was how I felt.
I was just like, I am not used to being
in this situation. I don't know, I had a handle.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
This, and you just you're frying your nerve an. I
was just scared, right, yeah, you know, because I didn't
let anybody down.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And at the same time I was numbing not only
my body but like my mind's eye, if you will,
and then waking up with a hangover, you know, feeling
like I was ten steps back. And what he was
trying to do was say, you gotta You've got to
breathe and make a decision. I'm not saying that you
got to be one hundred percent sober, but if you
(13:26):
continue being as you know, messed up as you are,
you're not going to make a kid.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Yeah, And was that you have to make a decision?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Was there some apprehension or reticence to be like, hey, fuck,
like I'm I understand what you're saying, but like we're
making tracks here, Like what was that interaction? Like what
was your response to him, and almost got about it.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
We had we almost got shelved.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Yeah, we did.
Speaker 7 (13:46):
Oh no shit, yeah, and our guy and he wanted
to do the right thing. So when we came with
the sound of man As it was all his brilliant album,
and we played it and I watched the reaction in
the room as we always do, and I could tell
(14:08):
that they got it big time right. But as we
were walking out of a Man, I don't know whether
I should tell this, but I guess I'm gonna.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
I mean, it's a real it really happened.
Speaker 7 (14:19):
So I knew all the timing was right, the touring,
everything was going to come together and we were going to.
Speaker 6 (14:27):
Blow the band up. And it was a moment he says.
Speaker 7 (14:33):
We're on the seventy second floor of the rock building
and he were standing outside by the window and he said, well,
that's all well and good.
Speaker 6 (14:42):
We're green led. He said, I'm going to shelve the
album and we're going to put Brend into rehab.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
And I looked at him and I said, what did
you just say?
Speaker 6 (14:55):
I said, because you.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Have a two hundred city tour and you have all that, Yeah,
you're already in the.
Speaker 6 (15:01):
Ad playing everything.
Speaker 7 (15:03):
I said, hey, man, you're trying to prove your life
insurance is paid up, because I will throw you through
that fucking window.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Here's the thing, it's one of the most like for
me personally. I'm sitting there. You know, look, man, he
he cleaned me up.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
This is like when he came out, he literally saved
my life. He really really did. You know.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
He got me focused to get into New York from
la you know, put me in a really really nice suit,
cleaned me up, walked me in there.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
He knew what he was up against.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Also, because the thing is is like people may hear
this and be like, well, that's a you know, a
manager for you. You got to understand it's not a
one way street. I have to be in this as well,
just like he has to be in it. And there's
other people involved.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Like, the music business is not for everyone. And I
often will tell people it's called the music business industry
for a reason.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
The word business is in the title.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Music's in it too, But it's a business, okay, And
there's people's you know, jobs, careers. Everything's on the line,
especially when you make an album and you have to
have the foresight to kind of have an instinct in
a crystal ball like what the next two years could
be or could not be? And again, who is a
legend in the industry and who is one of the
(16:24):
reasons why I'm in the music industry twenty years in
the game, you know. But he was in a position
where he was looking at his friend and he was
just like, I gotta get you.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
I don't want you to die.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
He's probably seen it, you know what I mean. Yeah,
I don't have like flashbacks of that. Yeah, he's like,
I don't want you to die, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
But in the meantime, also too, me and Bill are
talking to one another about these things and what have you.
And what Bill is trying to do is also as
my manager and you know, me as the artist.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
He's trying to decide whether or not he believes.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Me when I tell him I'm not gonna let him
down right like, because he's like, as your manager, my
artist is telling me that they got it.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
I'm going to side with my artist always, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
And you're and you're on the line too, You're out here,
you're vouching for.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
This played about him too, but shoving his album wasn't
gonna save his life.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
May have gone the other right with him, Yeah, exactly
for you.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Hearing Bill kind of blow, I don't know, I'd be like, wow,
this guy really does did that help?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Kind of?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It's almost like a Hollywood script, like the fact you're
in this record room, the huge table, Riley like you
need to get your shit together, Like do you think
that would have been enough? Or was it Bill fighting
for you? Like what do you think was going on?
He's like, what was your next hour after that?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, talk about that process.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I'm I'm just curious, like in a room of executives,
having your manager, where you're at this critical moment you're
scream at someone threatened through out the window. Was that
something I was like, this guy really believes in me,
this is something? Or was that already taken care of.
I'm just fascinated with that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I think another part of my brain was born, if
that makes any sense, Like there was another there was
another section that had not been realized, and with that moment,
like there was another part of my psyche that was born,
where all of a sudden it really became Yes, I'm
(18:33):
an artist, but I have certain people around me that
need me to be at all times at my highest level.
And so if anything, I think that he helped me
find another gear in my work ethic from that moment.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
But it was by osmosis. It was organic.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
It wasn't like me saying well no, it wasn't very organic,
threatening to throw the guy out the one in by
the way.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
He didn't forgive me right away.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
I took a minute.
Speaker 7 (19:06):
It took a couple of years, but it's okay because
we got it straight down. And I love the guy
and he loves Sprinton, you know, but I just knew
that that wasn't the answer.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right again, you were making some of the best media
you ever made in your life, like at kind.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Of the worst, at the lowest lows. It's a weird dynamic.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
No, what I will tell you is like, and I
know this from firsthand experience. You know, this younger generation,
you know, they look at it and they're like, yeah,
but you had your fun and you're telling me not
to have mine.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
And I'm like, because I don't want you to die.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, like you, I mean, like your story is
kind of like, hey, you had this thing, and do
you want to be rich and famous or not?
Speaker 3 (19:48):
You're like, oh, I picked this and got it.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
It's about being rich.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It's just about being being alive, and you want to
be alive.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
But it's for for a lot of people probably listening
to your point, it's like it almost sound easy, like
oh yeah, you've got to have your wounds and your
scars and hahaha, now we get to laugh about it.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Now you're you're doing. But that's not the.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Because I also, you know, there there's also people in
my life that meant the world to me and sorry, no,
that's fine, they're gone. And that's the brutal part of it,
because I can't talk to them anymore. And I don't
(20:30):
mean to like just you know, rake the record here,
you know, across the table. But that's the issue, is
that I don't want people to ever feel that, you know,
drug addiction should be glorified, because it's a nightmare, and
not only that, it's a nightmare for all the people
(20:50):
that are around it. And I know that it gets stigmatized,
and I know that, you know, we we should be
looking at.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
A better way to treat addicts.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You know, throw them in a cage doesn't necessarily create sobriety,
you know, it creates you know, anger, frustration, and get
me out of here so I can get high.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
If you don't give people an understanding that hey, you're
gonna have to build out a different skill set to
handle this. Some people don't have to go to rehab.
Some people need a twelve step and because they need
that accountability. There's not a one size fits all for addiction,
right it Really there's no way of handling it because the.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Underlying issues are completely different for everyone. It could be
from you know, sexual, it could be from hereditary, could
be it's all these different things. But the one thing
it isn't as a bad person. I think that's what
we kind of do sometimes. Like so for example, say
you didn't talk that cop out of it, and then
you've got a DWY or DUY and then you had
a criminal record, you spend some time, then you lost
(21:53):
this record deal and then it went down the hill.
I mean that could have been a story, and that's
the story for a lot of people because the criminal justice.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
Doesn't act it's for a to losive record deal. But
the timing would have been wrong.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Yeah, would have been.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Like a chance on there. Yeah, you'll figure it out
chan you know it, but you all not.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I guess for just the word had people around you
to say you're you're valued and you're worth it. I
don't think a lot of people have that, and you
come knox was a little different than some southern towns
because it's a college town and it's a little different.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
But I'm sure you said you have people love you.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I'm sure there are a lot of parallel tracks for
folks back there, particularly in rural areas that were you know,
the opened epidemic hit so hard that didn't have that
person in their lives or gotten the criminal justice has
been too quickly, or didn't get to talk to some
about the foundations of their addiction and it was too late.
I'm assuming you've had stories like that. I'm assuming you have.
Are you still dealing with that back home? Or like
(22:49):
what does that look like for you now kind of
posts we're not even out of the opiod addiction, but
you know, post that, like coming down sober, Like what
does that look like for you back in your your
hometown and your friends and family.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I Mean, the good thing about Theoxville is that Knoxville
takes a lot of just that city in general really
really focuses on getting people help and not necessarily you know,
throwing them in jail and what have you.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
There's a lot of outreach there.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
The big thing about that city, you know, because of
like you know, you you look at the kind of
the geography of like Tennessee and the Southern states, you know, Appalachia,
West Virginia. We all know what happened there with you know,
the Sacklers and all that.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
You know, you know, I was in the midst of that.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So like when I, I mean, Michael Keaton did that
series on Hulu and I think I'm.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Trying that it probably one of the best.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
If you wanted to see how it played out, I
would tell you to go watch that, and it is
worth watching it because they pretty much I lived that,
like literally lived that.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I love the focus they have on the sales aspect
of it. The aggressiveness, yeah, telling people and yeah to
go ahead.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
And another thing too. You know my friend Jelly roll
Man when he you know, went to Washington. Shout out
to jail Man because.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Jelly went you know out there, you know, Senate, Congress,
everything else and made a point, you know, with his
celebrity and you know that he's really really he brings
at the forefront. I mean, you talk about people that
are necessary in the industry, man Jelly is definitely necessary
because he's really he has a lot of experience with
that as well. But you know, you've got artists now
talking about what's actually going on in these rural areas
(24:29):
and what's happening. But you know what needs to be
focused on too, Like if you go into those towns
even present day, you know, those towns.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
Are still destroyed because of this, Like it.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Didn't leave some kind of wonderful way happy ending like
and so what are you going to do about that?
And and how can we you know, as a society,
you know, really go back into these areas where people
need some kind of assistance and some kind of help,
because what's awful about it is like it just leaves.
(24:59):
Especially the opioid you know, that epidemic is still there.
Even though they've made they've changed the recipe for oxycotton,
they've done all these things.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Well that's all find and good.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
You still have just a wake of just heartbreak and
there there are no flowers, you know what I mean,
It's just decimated. So you have to be willing also
to be able to look at how devastating it is
in order to try to figure out a way to
bring it back to life. So is there, you know,
are we going to figure that out this afternoon. The
(25:32):
fact that we're talking about it is really one of
the steps to go to the forefront of that as well.
And so I think the more that you're talking about it,
the more that these areas people don't forget about them
because you know, coming out of an election year and
all these different things that are going on, everybody is
in their own world.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
But you know, drug addiction. It's not bias, you know,
and it.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Can quote unquote happiest people.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
You know, they're they're dealing with it. Here's the clown
type of thing.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, And I think the big thing that like what
I see also too right now as an artist, and
is somebody that you know has had experience with this
as well. You know, Look, I have a difference of
opinion in some regards to.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
What I see with you know, how these new.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I don't know if they're like test subjects or you know,
there's a lot of new scientific evidence about like psilocybin
and about NBMA and about marijuana and about you know,
CBD and all these different things, and there's a whole
lot of information, but sometimes I wonder, you know, is
it skewed, has it been turned around?
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Has it like what is actually going to work for you?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And you know, when you have a dilemma in there
is for some people they're like, well that's a that's
just an excuse for me to do drugs. Well, if
there's an actual scientific study being done and there's a
clinical research on it, that's fantastic, But is that being
administered by professionals, right, as opposed to somebody that's like,
well I'm I gonna go take a god dose and
(27:05):
hopefully I don't jump off of a bill sing right.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
Well no, well yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
That's where kind of the illegality gets into it, because
I've seen it. People go on both sides, like the
people that are advocating for these types of things, and
every want to say anything negative about it. Or I
look at canvas sometimes like you're going into a smoke
shop and if you're a young kid, everything's ninety five
percent THC and all the it's like it's not great
and we don't have a good knowledge about like how
it impacts us, and it really is because yeah, the
(27:30):
one side of the advocates they don't say the negative effects,
and on the other side, it's only the negative effects.
And because we don't have just like an objective stand.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
It also makes it difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
It's this anecdote of like, yeah, i'm rubbing in I
feel good, like when I we uh we interviewed to
MMA fighter and when she's saying, like my joints and
knees and hips when I rub CBD and I was
able to fight into my forties, Like all right, I'm
a believer.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
But yeah, that's right. That's not a people study either.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
And the illegality of it is some of the problem
because we can't actually get social norms around this. With alcohol,
we kind of at least know, like, you know, if
you're doing a shot, it's about five ounces of wine,
it's about a beer.
Speaker 7 (28:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
We have no idea with cannabis or with psilocybin for
are using a treatment stance. So then you go to
different places and you start to try to self medicate
without experts, and I think that's a problem with like
where we're at as a social.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
And I also remember too, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And by the way, like I love Portland, Oregon, but
the idea to legalize all drugs probably wouldn't a good idea.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Particularly without the type of support systems.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
By the way, I believe, like don't quote me on it,
but I believe all that's been retracted.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
They retracted it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, A lot of it is like the people on
the ground and not potentially the policy, Like when you're
not enforcing all the quality of life stuff that comes
around with drug addiction, you know, fundraising for your drugs,
drug dealing, stealing, robbing, when you're not dealing with those things,
that's where the problems come. And it looked like a
complete divorce of law enforcement and doing this. And that's
(28:55):
that's not empathy either, when you see people on the
streets and things like that just doing stuff and it's
not good for your community either. Snow, I totally agree
with you, Like there has to be that balance, right.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
The last time I was in Portland, Oregon, I had
a day off there. We were touring and we finished
the tour there, so I stayed an extra day. I
usually stay when we finish up a legatur I'll stay
whatever city I'm in for like twenty four or forty
eight hours. I will never forget going downtown because I
hadn't seen downtown Portland in a minute, and there was
a couple at a little child and stroller, and I
(29:25):
just remember being across the street and watching them kind
of go by.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
But at the same time, I'm watching a.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Young man that looks all of maybe eighteen years old
shoot heroin in broad day, So I was like, well,
that's different, you know. So yeah, like things like that
that I just don't think that should be quote unquote normalized.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I think that's because that what that kid is shooting
up is not going to enhance his life and.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Will probably end it. I hope that's not what happened
to him.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
But like the fact of the matter is like that
whole like, let's be inclusive and all that. I mean,
I understand what you're doing by trying to make everyone
not feel like that they're in a safe space, but
come back to reality.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
You're gonna do that.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
You got to remember You've got to also give certain
people the benefit of the doubt. Right they say I
need to go to rehab, That's probably a good thing
because they know they got an issue. But if somebody
is like, I'm not going to rehab, but I'm gonna
kick it, just so you have to kind of make
a decision who you believe who you don't, right, And.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That's the problem with a lot of our mechanisms. They
don't have that type of flexibility. Like you said, it's
a one size fits all box. Maybe you go to
some drug court that if you have to go through
the criminal justice system and then you fail once and
then it's like are now you're back in the can?
Like So that's why I agree it's so critical to
show both sides of this, like, hey, this isn't just
some thing it's going to alter you. It's going to
do X, it's going to do why we have to
(30:51):
do those types of things, and we just don't have.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
That societal norm or culture or education about it.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
But by the way, I'm gonna say this, like specifically
with like psychedelics, like there is some profound profound like
literal evidence if it's administered by professionals, like literally specifically
for the military, like it it's extraordinary where like they
(31:17):
are finding that people that have just lived in terror
from what they've seen in war, you know, they administer it.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Sometimes it's just one session.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, it's reversing severe PTSD, like we're talking about like
I feel better.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
It's like oh no, yeah, it's crazy literally.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Like where you know, they just they understand it, like
something is something that is happening in the psilocybin and
how it's reacting, which by the way, has been around
for you know, I don't know however forever. You know,
when you see hieroglyphics and things like that and they
have you know, they'll pull back and they can actually
(31:54):
see these drawings, you know, in stones where.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Literally a little I was burning something.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, And but the thing is is that when I
see like real, you know, clinical evidence where if this
is administered professionally, this can actually save people's lives or
if anything, get them to a place where they don't
fear being alive on a daily basis because they don't
know if they're going to be subjected to flashbacks for
(32:22):
the rest of their lives exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Or be a danger to someone else in their family.
Like it's it's themselves for themselves. Yeah, maps, We spoke
with someone there and they're the ones that do a
lot of the clinical trials, and they had like a
third face clinical trial that was going to go up
tefty approval.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
The FDA just shut that down not a month ago.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Yeah, I don't agree with ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, I don't agree with that excited the hollucygenic effects
as one of the negatives for doing It's like, well,
this is kind of the point.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
There was one individual and I wish I could figure
it out off the top of my head, but like
they did it before and after, and it was kind of.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
What you just said.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
They literally went into the session and it was with
psilocybin and it was administered, you know, with two different people.
There was like a shaman and then there were two
like clinical doctors and they He was in the midst
of a of a trial on this and he went
in and he said after he came out of it
that he had not voices.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
In his head anymore. He just had a voice say
let it go.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
It's amazing, Like all the voices back before were like
it's never going to end.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
You're always gonna feel like this. You know, you killed
all these people.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Like what people don't understand what military, like, what people
go through when they're in war.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
You know, but it was one of.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Those things where I like, all of the voices that
I had in my head were silenced by just one
voice that said let it go. And he's like, and
I don't hear that voice either anymore. I just like
I was like, I was assured that I could let
it go, and then that guy went on and he
was like, he's like, it's.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
Saved my life. You know, that's profound.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
That is profound.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, it's just you have auto red tape in government
and just you know, everyone's trying to figure out what's
the right thing to do. Nobody wants to be liable,
but hey, we're here, we're alive. We should be figuring
this out.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, particularly when you see the things that we're trying
to do or just not being as effective, you know,
with drugs and things like that. And that's a lot
of the veterans where they're like, yeah, VA just gave
me a bunch of pills and I don't want to
take them. But yeah, yeah, I know we're kind of
coming a time and I want to appreciate you all.
I just had one last question. You all have been
in the music industry and together for so long. I
think we've all kind of learned that kind of like
love and communication and talking and having people around you,
(34:41):
and this of course is so critical to kind of
move through this. Have you seen a change in kind
of people feeling more comfortable opening up talking about this?
What have you seen change in kind of your industry?
And where do you think we still need to kind
of be here?
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Where are You're?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Like?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Man, I wish I had that when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Wish I had this to kind of help along, like
what do you what do you think that kind of
last last positive words?
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Good at you bell, wow, no pressure, you know, I.
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Yeah, I just think it's up to the individual to
try and help where you can. And I agree with
Brent though. The thing I worry about is I wouldn't
be worried if someone in my family said I want
to do drugs. I'd be worried that they would get
the wrong drug, you know, because you don't get a
(35:36):
second chance on that. And it's so complicated. But I
think there's some really good aspects if it's administered by
a professional.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
But another thing inside of all that is honestly about communication.
I mean the band that I'm in, you know, we've
been working with the AFSP for the better part of
you know, a decade and a half, which is the
American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. And the fact of the
matter is we tell people all the time the number
one thing that you have to focus on and work
at is remember, the worst thing you can do is
(36:10):
be quiet, Like you got to talk about it, and
you got to like put it out there in the open,
to have a dialogue and to understand things and the
other side of it too. I think that, you know,
if I can give anybody at least my personal experience
with all of these subject matters and what have you,
something for me personally that helped me immensely was when
I learned, you know, how important real supplementation is as
(36:34):
you get older, and real exercises and how it can
completely change your life. And now some people will say,
like I don't have time, Yeah you do. There's twenty
four hours in a day. You can carve out an hour,
you know what I mean? And I think, honestly, conversation, dialogue,
you know, trying to focus on bettering yourself as much
as you possibly can. I mean, one thing in the
(36:55):
music industry that me and Bill have always been. I
would like to think that has been something that we've
always been meticulous about with people, is the gratitude of
you know what, be be genuinely happy for somebody else's success,
you know what I mean. Like, especially in this industry,
(37:17):
it's really and I mean that like and that's.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Really really important.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
You know, we're all dealing with things, we all have families,
we all have issues, you know, and you never know
what somebody's going through, and so just be kind when
you can.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
It takes so much more energy.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
To be rude or you know, pardon my French, but
to just be an asshole.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Like, it's a much easier process in life of trying
to build out as much of a positive you know,
or a positivity the outcome and lift people up instead
of tearing them down. And that's how I would look
at at anything, like we're all on this planet together,
we should be taken care of one another. You will
have such more harmony in your life, I promise you.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
You see people you both look healthy and happy and
like Serene, the people I've met that have your attitude
as they get older, there is a youthfulness that still
like glows in them and I think there's something with
that as well, like just being happy for other people,
not wearing that stress. Like you can see people that
are just miserable for everyone in themselves. They're just like,
(38:18):
you're gonna be that, but you all like you just
have a glow about you. And i'd yeah, So I
want to thank you.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Brent calls it the carousel.
Speaker 7 (38:28):
When he when he gets ready to go to bed,
and I he thinks of all the people on the carousel,
that that that we all need to take care of.
Speaker 6 (38:37):
And it's important.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Man.
Speaker 6 (38:39):
I I love it. I love it. I love the music,
I love my partner, I love you know. I just
love it.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Man.
Speaker 6 (38:47):
I jump out of bed in the morning. It's great.
Speaker 5 (38:50):
Bill.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Where where can we uh send folks?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Do you have anything to plug any website or anything
coming up?
Speaker 6 (38:56):
Well, it's our website in the.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
Good, good entertaining, good entertainment.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
You know, everything's on social media, cash them TikTok to Instagram,
to Facebook, the whole, the whole kit and kaboodle.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
You got a bunch of artists, great artist.
Speaker 7 (39:12):
I am at the best place of my life because
I I love everybody I'm working with, and I know
that sounds corny and bs, but it's a family.
Speaker 6 (39:22):
What a pleasure it's been sitting in.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I really enjoyed having this conversation absolutely much.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 6 (39:30):
Thank you man, Thank you.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah, seriously, I had a blast.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Know, this is awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
It's really cool media and you're too, like this has
been great, this whole experience, but awesome.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, so thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
You know, this has been like taking as much time
when you're as busy as your already have kids and ship, like, I.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Really appreciate pleasure. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, all right, awesome interview. Thanks again, Uh, Brent Smith,
Bill mccafey.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
It really was like a real.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Raw and open discussion about depression and mental health and
addiction and all these things and the cries for help,
and yeah, it's just I commend people that are at
that level, particularly you know, in that time period to
talk about it that way. You know, it's pretty brave
theme and he was very raw about it, and you know,
they were trying to say, like, he's got to go
to rehab right now, and the people that are closest
(40:24):
to him, you know, and Bill were just saying it
probably would have been the worst thing for him at
that point, and for some people would be the best
thing for them at that point, and for others it's
just you got to meet people, and there's not this
one size fits all approach. I mean, I know working
in the criminal justice when I was an attorney and
we had criminal defendants at our law firm, there was
often times we would recommend do not take this rehab,
(40:46):
do not take this probation. You should just do the
time in jail and try to get outside help when
you get out, right, because you are going to fail
and then they're going to send you to prison for longer.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
That is not a system that's working when we're saying you.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Need help and the best approach is for you to
go to jail so we can figure it out on
the back end. Happens every single day in this country
in every single courthouse. I guarantee you ask any criminal
defense attorney. So it's that sort of stuff where we
don't have that, but we almost don't have that in society.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
It's already hard enough if like.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
People just want to push it, and I get it,
and I think some I just wanted to touch on
that kind of like made me think a little bit
more and it's kind of question that, you know, because
Brent's you know, completely clean now, and you know, we
started talking about psilocybin and some of the medical benefits
that can happen from PTSD mental health and actually treating
you know, addiction for opiates and things like that, helping
(41:33):
with withdrawals and and you know, kind of suppressing the
need for it and craving, and it must be really difficult,
and you could hear the skepticism and it's rightful from
someone that you know, substances were the thing that we're
getting them out, and you know, the pathway through was sobriety,
and so to say like the solution is also something like,
(41:55):
I get his skepticism, and so I had never thought
about it that way. So that was it was good
to hear that from a different perspective.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
And so yeah, yeah, it's probably hard to hear when
you know you've gotten clean, like oh, why didn't you
try drug? Yeah, why didn't you try more drug?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
You know, he's open to and I think that's what
we all just need to say and see is just
let's be open to this and just be you know,
let's be honest. Let's just be honest about what we're
talking about. So again, Yeah, Bill Brent, amazing.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
I'm Greg Lyve.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
This is the War on drugs.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
The War on Drugs is a production of Lava for
Good and Stand Together Music and association with Signal Company
Number one. Stand Together Music unites musicians and their teams
with proven change makers to co create solutions to some
of the most pressing.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Issues in our country, including.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Criminal justice, reform, addiction recovery, mental health, education, free speech,
and ending the War on drugs. Learn more at Stand
Together Music dot org.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Be sure to follow Lava for.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Good on Instagram, Facebook and threads at Law for Good.
You can follow Clayton English on Instagram, n X at
Clayton English, and you can follow Craig Laude on Instagram
and on X at Greg Lott. Executive producers Jason Flamm,
Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and Collette Wintraub. Senior producers Kelsey Stenecker,
(43:17):
Zak Huffman and Nick Stump. Post production by ten ten,
Audio talent booking by Dan Resnik. Rez Entertainment Head of
Marketing and Operations, Jeff Cleiburn, Social Media Director, Ismadi Gudarama,
social media Manager, Sarah Gibbons and art director Andrew Nelson.
He can be angry at an addict all you want,
but if you choose to do it that way, you're
never going to be able to open their eyes.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Lava for good and stand together. Music Present The War
on Drugs Podcast Season two. This season, we're diving deeper
into the real stories behind the War on Drugs, its impact,
its failures, and the people offering a better path forward
today on the show. Lead singer and songwriter of multi
platinum rock band Shine Down, authors of nineteen number one
(00:30):
hits on the Billboard Mainstream Rock Charts, the most ever,
including Atlas Falls, Save Me and Second Chance.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Outspoken mental health.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Advocate Brent Smith, and his longtime manager, friend and confidant,
acclaimed record promoter and manager Bill mcgaffe. All right, yeah,
another episode War on drug season two.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yes, real people, real stories, real solutions.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
And the real Clayton English, the real Greg. There we go.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, not the AI version, no, which probably would be
next season.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
We get like one hundred and fifty organs.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
This is what they've been doing. This is why they
put their face mapping us right.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Now probably, But anyway, Yeah, amazing interview. I got I
did this one solo. I saw Brent Smith and his
his manager Bill mcgathe. Brent is from a Shinedown, one
of the most successful bands of all time, and they
were getting ready to gear up for a show that
they're going to do later on at MSG, so we
were able to catch him up there and it was
(01:35):
a great, great conversation.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
You know, he's one of literally one of the biggest
stars in the world, and he is the most humble,
you know, honest, like just content, just an amazing person.
You know, there is this story that comes up and
it really feels like, you know, this kind of Hollywood
story of you know, Brent staring down you know, success
and fame potentially or is he can allow this addiction
to maybe you know, you know, divert his career. And
(01:59):
again it's addiction coming in all shapes and forms and
what recovery is for some and what it is and
for others. I don't want to give much away, but
it really is one of these like really really cool
short that I had no idea about and so can't
wait for y'all to listen to it. And without any
further ado, Brent.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Smith, Hey there, me and Greg, our guests and sponsors
may sound smart, We may even make some good points,
but at the end of the day, we're not medical
profession Okay, Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast.
Anything we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
(02:37):
consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Got it, Okay, Welcome back to the War on Drugs.
We have some very special guests here. Brent Smith, creator Shindown.
Being a thirty seven year old kid from the suburbs,
Shinedown was a big part of my childhood growing up
and throughout the year, So welcome to the show and
rate of promotion legend Bill mccathe's here as well, and
(03:03):
so thank you all for coming to the War on
Drugs podcast.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
I appreciate it, happy to be here.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
First album comes out in two thousand and one.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
Is that right? Is the debut album circulated?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I think that it was, Yeah, roughly two thousand and one,
two thousand and two.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
I'd have to go.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Back and like check whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
the first album I think it was.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Was it last year? Yeah? Last year?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So no, it would have been two thousand and three
because it had its twenty year anniversary last year.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
It was like at Deluxe ou I remember, yeah yeah
Spotify Yeah okay, yeah, yeah, that's right, okay, oh yeah,
so yeah, that'd be twenty years from there. And so
so you all toureds immensely. I was kind of like
three year stuff like, I mean, it was over two
hundred gigs a year. I might probably under selling it
at this point.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
No, I mean that's what that's we had to do that,
you know, I mean it was all built off I
mean honestly, man, it was built off of the radio
and just relentless touring like to the point. But you're young,
your twenties, you're in your twenty and you know, we
weren't shy like with the work ethic, right. We were
definitely on drugs, yeah, and a lot of them, but
(04:10):
you could have never said that we were lazy.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Two hundred so much shows and travel and obviously you're
getting off. It's not like you're in private jets or anything.
I'm assuming tour bus and and all that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
And so was drugs.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And alcohol a big part of kind of that early
start before y'all started to make it.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, and then how did it kind of change when.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Resources start to come You're going through this their success,
there's probably there's you know, there's every vice that you'd
ever want, it's women, booze or anything. Do you feel
that was just kind of the ramp up, like the
availability and everything, or was it more now looking back,
is it the stress of the situation?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, kind of like thirty thousand foot perspective. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
How do you think that like change crossover when you
guys started to make it or at least get some recognition, notoriety.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I think what happened was that there for a minute
in the beginning, it was fun and then it got
then it got not fun, it got deadly. And also,
I will be honest with you, like we were on
a trajectory. Someone once told me, they said, you have
(05:17):
your whole life to make your first record, and then
if that first album is successful, you're going to get
six months to do your next one.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
And it was the speed.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Of which, like honestly, the drugs and the gasoline of
the you know in the diesel, you know, of the
alcohol it fueled like you can't slow down, you can't stop,
Like we got to get in because the first record
was successful, by a lot of people's surprise.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
If you will.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
But it was just out of pure tenacity that we
made it successful. And then the second record it was
exactly that. It was about six months like get in there,
get it done, get back out on the road. So
the drugs were the fuel inside of that too, not
all the time, but like all of a sudden, it
became not fun. And the other thing that was happening
was all these bands. Me and Bill were talking. Me
(06:04):
and Bill were talking about this the other day. There
were so many great bands, dude, that came out during
like two thousand and three to two thousand and six.
They're not a band anymore because a lot of them died. Yeah,
they died of overdoses, man.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
And that was I mean, right during the opioid epidemic,
as it's ramping up, like oxyconton, We're starting to come
come into play and then so I'm sure that was
a huge part of it.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
I could name the artists that we were working with
tourm with that they went in to get them for
sound check and they were dead in their bunk.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Dude. It was brutal, and I mean it was it was.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And so then you're dealing with this whole thing of
like your friends. You're watching them just I mean, and
they did. They were like dropping like flies. But then
I look at myself in the mirror, and you know,
I'm still snorting cocain, yeah, you know, or I'm still
and I was massive.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
When drugs are we talking about?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It was massively addicted to oxycon.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
You know.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
I was doing four.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Hundred milligram up my nose a night by two thousand
and five, two thousand and six. It was not pretty, yeah,
you know. And inside of this it became something where
you could take like a two week break sometimes and
you can kind of get yourself together and you'd sober
up for a minute, and then you get back out
(07:19):
into the lifestyle and it's right there, right there. It
doesn't go anywhere, and then all of a sudden, you're
starting to get recognition.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
I always made a point though, about something specifically.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I never went into a studio session high, Like I
never got up on a microphone when I'm in there
to like sing the actual track and when I'm writing
the material.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
I was never I was never high in sessions.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
But I used to have this idea that I had
to be I used to think I have to be
messed up in order to write messed up songs or
like this really heavy subject matter and what have you.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I got to put myself in that owl.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Now, I got put myself into it because I got
to live it in order to be able to talk
about it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Was that kind of an used to feel justified in
doing it, or more so, he felt like it was helping.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
It definitely wasn't helping.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
That's a combination that's called rationalization. But we are closer,
I would think than most artists and managers. I mean,
because he's more than an artist on my roster. He's
helped me. He's my partner, he's my best friend. I
love him, you know, he's my brother, he's you know,
(08:30):
and I don't even care how he looks at me.
Sometimes I feel like he looks at me like I'm
an older brother. Sometimes I think he looks at me
as maybe kind of a dad, you know.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Maybe I always look up to him though.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, either way, either way, I was.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
Yeah, I had no idea he was doing that much.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
I was gonna say, but did you see anything?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well he came to Los Angeles during the sound of
Madness album and saved my life.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Okay, yeah, let's let's talk about Yeah, so there's there's
a moment here. Let's talk about that. Oh you're flying
in there. What did you see when you were Well?
Speaker 7 (09:03):
What I started with was I got a call from
an incredible friend of ours and he called me. And
it wasn't like, hey, listen, man, you know we got
a little trouble here in the camp.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
I need you to get down here.
Speaker 7 (09:19):
He literally shrieked at me, get your ass to Los Angeles.
He said, you're guitar player ode and fell off his stool.
He said, I don't know what's going on with Brent,
but they are messed up, right, And so then I
(09:40):
immediately went to my wife and said, well, you know this,
I got to go. So I booked a ticket that afternoon,
flew to Los Angeles and I got there just in
time too, because you'd had that situation with the rental
car and you sideswiped like three.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
Cars, three part cars.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
He was going to Chris Lord Algae's studio to listen
to a mix and I hit three part cars because
I was high.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
I ran, I ran a red light.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
He was so high.
Speaker 7 (10:13):
But yet he is so good a functioning addict, right,
He was so good with his words and always husband
that he had talked to police out of.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Uh going to jail doing what police do.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Yeah, yeah, getting away with hitting three part cars. Yeah,
that's that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Way like it sounds very rock and roll and it
sounds like, you know, kind of you know, cinematic in
a way.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Dude, I could have killed someone. Yeah, you know what
I mean. When I think about it now, I'm in
awe that a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Of times too, that that I've been so lucky to
still be here. But you know, the fact of the
matter was that that was a real thing that happened.
And the other side of that, though, is that's when
Bill got out there, and what it was was it
was more of you know, I looked at Bill as
I felt like everybody was a narc and Bill didn't
(11:13):
come out there with an attitude where he was pointing
a finger at me. He was more like, Hey, I
got an idea. Let's take tomorrow off, but let's take
it off, meaning like, let's not drink, let's not do
anything like that. Let me take you out to lunch,
Let's go out to Santa Monica, we'll go shopping, or
we'll just get out, you know, what I mean, And
he just he was able to treat me in a
(11:35):
way where he wasn't coming out there to you know,
be angry at me per se. He was trying to
also figure out what was actually happening because.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
He knew there was a lot riding on this.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And I think Bill understood that this was the best
music that a he had heard from any of the
artists on his roster.
Speaker 7 (11:54):
No doubt, but but second chance.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
You know, there were seven singles off a sound the Madness.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But he was also like, none of this matters if
he's dead, right, you know what I mean? So we
got to figure out how to do this in a
way where we can actually bring him to the forefront,
meaning me, and get me help and you know, understand
what's actually going on here, because you can be angry
at an addict all you want, but if you if
(12:24):
you choose to do it that way, you're never going
to be able to open and open their eyes.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
And so he really treated me as best he could.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Understanding also too, I remember one night you said to me,
you were like, this has got to be hard, Like
you got all these people that need you to be great,
They need you.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
Everyone's waiting on you to be brilliant.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
And nobody had said it to me like that, because
I hadn't complained about that, but that was how I felt.
I was just like, I am not used to being
in this situation. I don't know, I had a handle.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
This, and you just you're frying your nerve an. I
was just scared, right, yeah, you know, because I didn't
let anybody down.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And at the same time I was numbing not only
my body but like my mind's eye, if you will,
and then waking up with a hangover, you know, feeling
like I was ten steps back. And what he was
trying to do was say, you gotta You've got to
breathe and make a decision. I'm not saying that you
got to be one hundred percent sober, but if you
(13:26):
continue being as you know, messed up as you are,
you're not going to make a kid.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Yeah, And was that you have to make a decision?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Was there some apprehension or reticence to be like, hey, fuck,
like I'm I understand what you're saying, but like we're
making tracks here, Like what was that interaction? Like what
was your response to him, and almost got about it.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
We had we almost got shelved.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Yeah, we did.
Speaker 7 (13:46):
Oh no shit, yeah, and our guy and he wanted
to do the right thing. So when we came with
the sound of man As it was all his brilliant album,
and we played it and I watched the reaction in
the room as we always do, and I could tell
(14:08):
that they got it big time right. But as we
were walking out of a Man, I don't know whether
I should tell this, but I guess I'm gonna.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
I mean, it's a real it really happened.
Speaker 7 (14:19):
So I knew all the timing was right, the touring,
everything was going to come together and we were going to.
Speaker 6 (14:27):
Blow the band up. And it was a moment he says.
Speaker 7 (14:33):
We're on the seventy second floor of the rock building
and he were standing outside by the window and he said, well,
that's all well and good.
Speaker 6 (14:42):
We're green led. He said, I'm going to shelve the
album and we're going to put Brend into rehab.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
And I looked at him and I said, what did
you just say?
Speaker 6 (14:55):
I said, because you.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Have a two hundred city tour and you have all that, Yeah,
you're already in the.
Speaker 6 (15:01):
Ad playing everything.
Speaker 7 (15:03):
I said, hey, man, you're trying to prove your life
insurance is paid up, because I will throw you through
that fucking window.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Here's the thing, it's one of the most like for
me personally. I'm sitting there. You know, look, man, he
he cleaned me up.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
This is like when he came out, he literally saved
my life. He really really did. You know.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
He got me focused to get into New York from
la you know, put me in a really really nice suit,
cleaned me up, walked me in there.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
He knew what he was up against.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Also, because the thing is is like people may hear
this and be like, well, that's a you know, a
manager for you. You got to understand it's not a
one way street. I have to be in this as well,
just like he has to be in it. And there's
other people involved.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Like, the music business is not for everyone. And I
often will tell people it's called the music business industry
for a reason.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
The word business is in the title.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Music's in it too, But it's a business, okay, And
there's people's you know, jobs, careers. Everything's on the line,
especially when you make an album and you have to
have the foresight to kind of have an instinct in
a crystal ball like what the next two years could
be or could not be? And again, who is a
legend in the industry and who is one of the
(16:24):
reasons why I'm in the music industry twenty years in
the game, you know. But he was in a position
where he was looking at his friend and he was
just like, I gotta get you.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
I don't want you to die.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
He's probably seen it, you know what I mean. Yeah,
I don't have like flashbacks of that. Yeah, he's like,
I don't want you to die, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
But in the meantime, also too, me and Bill are
talking to one another about these things and what have you.
And what Bill is trying to do is also as
my manager and you know, me as the artist.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
He's trying to decide whether or not he believes.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Me when I tell him I'm not gonna let him
down right like, because he's like, as your manager, my
artist is telling me that they got it.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
I'm going to side with my artist always, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
And you're and you're on the line too, You're out here,
you're vouching for.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
This played about him too, but shoving his album wasn't
gonna save his life.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
May have gone the other right with him, Yeah, exactly
for you.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Hearing Bill kind of blow, I don't know, I'd be like, wow,
this guy really does did that help?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Kind of?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It's almost like a Hollywood script, like the fact you're
in this record room, the huge table, Riley like you
need to get your shit together, Like do you think
that would have been enough? Or was it Bill fighting
for you? Like what do you think was going on?
He's like, what was your next hour after that?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, talk about that process.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I'm I'm just curious, like in a room of executives,
having your manager, where you're at this critical moment you're
scream at someone threatened through out the window. Was that
something I was like, this guy really believes in me,
this is something? Or was that already taken care of.
I'm just fascinated with that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I think another part of my brain was born, if
that makes any sense, Like there was another there was
another section that had not been realized, and with that moment,
like there was another part of my psyche that was born,
where all of a sudden it really became Yes, I'm
(18:33):
an artist, but I have certain people around me that
need me to be at all times at my highest level.
And so if anything, I think that he helped me
find another gear in my work ethic from that moment.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
But it was by osmosis. It was organic.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
It wasn't like me saying well no, it wasn't very organic,
threatening to throw the guy out the one in by
the way.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
He didn't forgive me right away.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
I took a minute.
Speaker 7 (19:06):
It took a couple of years, but it's okay because
we got it straight down. And I love the guy
and he loves Sprinton, you know, but I just knew
that that wasn't the answer.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right again, you were making some of the best media
you ever made in your life, like at kind.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Of the worst, at the lowest lows. It's a weird dynamic.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
No, what I will tell you is like, and I
know this from firsthand experience. You know, this younger generation,
you know, they look at it and they're like, yeah,
but you had your fun and you're telling me not
to have mine.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
And I'm like, because I don't want you to die.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, like you, I mean, like your story is
kind of like, hey, you had this thing, and do
you want to be rich and famous or not?
Speaker 3 (19:48):
You're like, oh, I picked this and got it.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
It's about being rich.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It's just about being being alive, and you want to
be alive.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
But it's for for a lot of people probably listening
to your point, it's like it almost sound easy, like
oh yeah, you've got to have your wounds and your
scars and hahaha, now we get to laugh about it.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Now you're you're doing. But that's not the.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Because I also, you know, there there's also people in
my life that meant the world to me and sorry, no,
that's fine, they're gone. And that's the brutal part of it,
because I can't talk to them anymore. And I don't
(20:30):
mean to like just you know, rake the record here,
you know, across the table. But that's the issue, is
that I don't want people to ever feel that, you know,
drug addiction should be glorified, because it's a nightmare, and
not only that, it's a nightmare for all the people
(20:50):
that are around it. And I know that it gets stigmatized,
and I know that, you know, we we should be
looking at.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
A better way to treat addicts.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You know, throw them in a cage doesn't necessarily create sobriety,
you know, it creates you know, anger, frustration, and get
me out of here so I can get high.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
If you don't give people an understanding that hey, you're
gonna have to build out a different skill set to
handle this. Some people don't have to go to rehab.
Some people need a twelve step and because they need
that accountability. There's not a one size fits all for addiction,
right it Really there's no way of handling it because the.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Underlying issues are completely different for everyone. It could be
from you know, sexual, it could be from hereditary, could
be it's all these different things. But the one thing
it isn't as a bad person. I think that's what
we kind of do sometimes. Like so for example, say
you didn't talk that cop out of it, and then
you've got a DWY or DUY and then you had
a criminal record, you spend some time, then you lost
(21:53):
this record deal and then it went down the hill.
I mean that could have been a story, and that's
the story for a lot of people because the criminal justice.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
Doesn't act it's for a to losive record deal. But
the timing would have been wrong.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Yeah, would have been.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Like a chance on there. Yeah, you'll figure it out
chan you know it, but you all not.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I guess for just the word had people around you
to say you're you're valued and you're worth it. I
don't think a lot of people have that, and you
come knox was a little different than some southern towns
because it's a college town and it's a little different.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
But I'm sure you said you have people love you.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I'm sure there are a lot of parallel tracks for
folks back there, particularly in rural areas that were you know,
the opened epidemic hit so hard that didn't have that
person in their lives or gotten the criminal justice has
been too quickly, or didn't get to talk to some
about the foundations of their addiction and it was too late.
I'm assuming you've had stories like that. I'm assuming you have.
Are you still dealing with that back home? Or like
(22:49):
what does that look like for you now kind of
posts we're not even out of the opiod addiction, but
you know, post that, like coming down sober, Like what
does that look like for you back in your your
hometown and your friends and family.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I Mean, the good thing about Theoxville is that Knoxville
takes a lot of just that city in general really
really focuses on getting people help and not necessarily you know,
throwing them in jail and what have you.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
There's a lot of outreach there.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
The big thing about that city, you know, because of
like you know, you you look at the kind of
the geography of like Tennessee and the Southern states, you know, Appalachia,
West Virginia. We all know what happened there with you know,
the Sacklers and all that.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
You know, you know, I was in the midst of that.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So like when I, I mean, Michael Keaton did that
series on Hulu and I think I'm.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Trying that it probably one of the best.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
If you wanted to see how it played out, I
would tell you to go watch that, and it is
worth watching it because they pretty much I lived that,
like literally lived that.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I love the focus they have on the sales aspect
of it. The aggressiveness, yeah, telling people and yeah to
go ahead.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
And another thing too. You know my friend Jelly roll
Man when he you know, went to Washington. Shout out
to jail Man because.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Jelly went you know out there, you know, Senate, Congress,
everything else and made a point, you know, with his
celebrity and you know that he's really really he brings
at the forefront. I mean, you talk about people that
are necessary in the industry, man Jelly is definitely necessary
because he's really he has a lot of experience with
that as well. But you know, you've got artists now
talking about what's actually going on in these rural areas
(24:29):
and what's happening. But you know what needs to be
focused on too, Like if you go into those towns
even present day, you know, those towns.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
Are still destroyed because of this, Like it.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Didn't leave some kind of wonderful way happy ending like
and so what are you going to do about that?
And and how can we you know, as a society,
you know, really go back into these areas where people
need some kind of assistance and some kind of help,
because what's awful about it is like it just leaves.
(24:59):
Especially the opioid you know, that epidemic is still there.
Even though they've made they've changed the recipe for oxycotton,
they've done all these things.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Well that's all find and good.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
You still have just a wake of just heartbreak and
there there are no flowers, you know what I mean,
It's just decimated. So you have to be willing also
to be able to look at how devastating it is
in order to try to figure out a way to
bring it back to life. So is there, you know,
are we going to figure that out this afternoon. The
(25:32):
fact that we're talking about it is really one of
the steps to go to the forefront of that as well.
And so I think the more that you're talking about it,
the more that these areas people don't forget about them
because you know, coming out of an election year and
all these different things that are going on, everybody is
in their own world.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
But you know, drug addiction. It's not bias, you know,
and it.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Can quote unquote happiest people.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
You know, they're they're dealing with it. Here's the clown
type of thing.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, And I think the big thing that like what
I see also too right now as an artist, and
is somebody that you know has had experience with this
as well. You know, Look, I have a difference of
opinion in some regards to.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
What I see with you know, how these new.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I don't know if they're like test subjects or you know,
there's a lot of new scientific evidence about like psilocybin
and about NBMA and about marijuana and about you know,
CBD and all these different things, and there's a whole
lot of information, but sometimes I wonder, you know, is
it skewed, has it been turned around?
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Has it like what is actually going to work for you?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And you know, when you have a dilemma in there
is for some people they're like, well that's a that's
just an excuse for me to do drugs. Well, if
there's an actual scientific study being done and there's a
clinical research on it, that's fantastic, But is that being
administered by professionals, right, as opposed to somebody that's like,
well I'm I gonna go take a god dose and
(27:05):
hopefully I don't jump off of a bill sing right.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
Well no, well yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
That's where kind of the illegality gets into it, because
I've seen it. People go on both sides, like the
people that are advocating for these types of things, and
every want to say anything negative about it. Or I
look at canvas sometimes like you're going into a smoke
shop and if you're a young kid, everything's ninety five
percent THC and all the it's like it's not great
and we don't have a good knowledge about like how
it impacts us, and it really is because yeah, the
(27:30):
one side of the advocates they don't say the negative effects,
and on the other side, it's only the negative effects.
And because we don't have just like an objective stand.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
It also makes it difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
It's this anecdote of like, yeah, i'm rubbing in I
feel good, like when I we uh we interviewed to
MMA fighter and when she's saying, like my joints and
knees and hips when I rub CBD and I was
able to fight into my forties, Like all right, I'm
a believer.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
But yeah, that's right. That's not a people study either.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
And the illegality of it is some of the problem
because we can't actually get social norms around this. With alcohol,
we kind of at least know, like, you know, if
you're doing a shot, it's about five ounces of wine,
it's about a beer.
Speaker 7 (28:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
We have no idea with cannabis or with psilocybin for
are using a treatment stance. So then you go to
different places and you start to try to self medicate
without experts, and I think that's a problem with like
where we're at as a social.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
And I also remember too, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And by the way, like I love Portland, Oregon, but
the idea to legalize all drugs probably wouldn't a good idea.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Particularly without the type of support systems.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
By the way, I believe, like don't quote me on it,
but I believe all that's been retracted.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
They retracted it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, A lot of it is like the people on
the ground and not potentially the policy, Like when you're
not enforcing all the quality of life stuff that comes
around with drug addiction, you know, fundraising for your drugs,
drug dealing, stealing, robbing, when you're not dealing with those things,
that's where the problems come. And it looked like a
complete divorce of law enforcement and doing this. And that's
(28:55):
that's not empathy either, when you see people on the
streets and things like that just doing stuff and it's
not good for your community either. Snow, I totally agree
with you, Like there has to be that balance, right.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
The last time I was in Portland, Oregon, I had
a day off there. We were touring and we finished
the tour there, so I stayed an extra day. I
usually stay when we finish up a legatur I'll stay
whatever city I'm in for like twenty four or forty
eight hours. I will never forget going downtown because I
hadn't seen downtown Portland in a minute, and there was
a couple at a little child and stroller, and I
(29:25):
just remember being across the street and watching them kind
of go by.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
But at the same time, I'm watching a.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Young man that looks all of maybe eighteen years old
shoot heroin in broad day, So I was like, well,
that's different, you know. So yeah, like things like that
that I just don't think that should be quote unquote normalized.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I think that's because that what that kid is shooting
up is not going to enhance his life and.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Will probably end it. I hope that's not what happened
to him.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
But like the fact of the matter is like that
whole like, let's be inclusive and all that. I mean,
I understand what you're doing by trying to make everyone
not feel like that they're in a safe space, but
come back to reality.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
You're gonna do that.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
You got to remember You've got to also give certain
people the benefit of the doubt. Right they say I
need to go to rehab, That's probably a good thing
because they know they got an issue. But if somebody
is like, I'm not going to rehab, but I'm gonna
kick it, just so you have to kind of make
a decision who you believe who you don't, right, And.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That's the problem with a lot of our mechanisms. They
don't have that type of flexibility. Like you said, it's
a one size fits all box. Maybe you go to
some drug court that if you have to go through
the criminal justice system and then you fail once and
then it's like are now you're back in the can?
Like So that's why I agree it's so critical to
show both sides of this, like, hey, this isn't just
some thing it's going to alter you. It's going to
do X, it's going to do why we have to
(30:51):
do those types of things, and we just don't have.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
That societal norm or culture or education about it.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
But by the way, I'm gonna say this, like specifically
with like psychedelics, like there is some profound profound like
literal evidence if it's administered by professionals, like literally specifically
for the military, like it it's extraordinary where like they
(31:17):
are finding that people that have just lived in terror
from what they've seen in war, you know, they administer it.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Sometimes it's just one session.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, it's reversing severe PTSD, like we're talking about like
I feel better.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
It's like oh no, yeah, it's crazy literally.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Like where you know, they just they understand it, like
something is something that is happening in the psilocybin and
how it's reacting, which by the way, has been around
for you know, I don't know however forever. You know,
when you see hieroglyphics and things like that and they
have you know, they'll pull back and they can actually
(31:54):
see these drawings, you know, in stones where.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Literally a little I was burning something.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, And but the thing is is that when I
see like real, you know, clinical evidence where if this
is administered professionally, this can actually save people's lives or
if anything, get them to a place where they don't
fear being alive on a daily basis because they don't
know if they're going to be subjected to flashbacks for
(32:22):
the rest of their lives exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Or be a danger to someone else in their family.
Like it's it's themselves for themselves. Yeah, maps, We spoke
with someone there and they're the ones that do a
lot of the clinical trials, and they had like a
third face clinical trial that was going to go up
tefty approval.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
The FDA just shut that down not a month ago.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Yeah, I don't agree with ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, I don't agree with that excited the hollucygenic effects
as one of the negatives for doing It's like, well,
this is kind of the point.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
There was one individual and I wish I could figure
it out off the top of my head, but like
they did it before and after, and it was kind of.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
What you just said.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
They literally went into the session and it was with
psilocybin and it was administered, you know, with two different people.
There was like a shaman and then there were two
like clinical doctors and they He was in the midst
of a of a trial on this and he went
in and he said after he came out of it
that he had not voices.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
In his head anymore. He just had a voice say
let it go.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
It's amazing, Like all the voices back before were like
it's never going to end.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
You're always gonna feel like this. You know, you killed
all these people.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Like what people don't understand what military, like, what people
go through when they're in war.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
You know, but it was one of.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Those things where I like, all of the voices that
I had in my head were silenced by just one
voice that said let it go. And he's like, and
I don't hear that voice either anymore. I just like
I was like, I was assured that I could let
it go, and then that guy went on and he
was like, he's like, it's.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
Saved my life. You know, that's profound.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
That is profound.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, it's just you have auto red tape in government
and just you know, everyone's trying to figure out what's
the right thing to do. Nobody wants to be liable,
but hey, we're here, we're alive. We should be figuring
this out.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, particularly when you see the things that we're trying
to do or just not being as effective, you know,
with drugs and things like that. And that's a lot
of the veterans where they're like, yeah, VA just gave
me a bunch of pills and I don't want to
take them. But yeah, yeah, I know we're kind of
coming a time and I want to appreciate you all.
I just had one last question. You all have been
in the music industry and together for so long. I
think we've all kind of learned that kind of like
love and communication and talking and having people around you,
(34:41):
and this of course is so critical to kind of
move through this. Have you seen a change in kind
of people feeling more comfortable opening up talking about this?
What have you seen change in kind of your industry?
And where do you think we still need to kind
of be here?
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Where are You're?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Like?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Man, I wish I had that when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Wish I had this to kind of help along, like
what do you what do you think that kind of
last last positive words?
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Good at you bell, wow, no pressure, you know, I.
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Yeah, I just think it's up to the individual to
try and help where you can. And I agree with
Brent though. The thing I worry about is I wouldn't
be worried if someone in my family said I want
to do drugs. I'd be worried that they would get
the wrong drug, you know, because you don't get a
(35:36):
second chance on that. And it's so complicated. But I
think there's some really good aspects if it's administered by
a professional.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
But another thing inside of all that is honestly about communication.
I mean the band that I'm in, you know, we've
been working with the AFSP for the better part of
you know, a decade and a half, which is the
American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. And the fact of the
matter is we tell people all the time the number
one thing that you have to focus on and work
at is remember, the worst thing you can do is
(36:10):
be quiet, Like you got to talk about it, and
you got to like put it out there in the open,
to have a dialogue and to understand things and the
other side of it too. I think that, you know,
if I can give anybody at least my personal experience
with all of these subject matters and what have you,
something for me personally that helped me immensely was when
I learned, you know, how important real supplementation is as
(36:34):
you get older, and real exercises and how it can
completely change your life. And now some people will say,
like I don't have time, Yeah you do. There's twenty
four hours in a day. You can carve out an hour,
you know what I mean? And I think, honestly, conversation, dialogue,
you know, trying to focus on bettering yourself as much
as you possibly can. I mean, one thing in the
(36:55):
music industry that me and Bill have always been. I
would like to think that has been something that we've
always been meticulous about with people, is the gratitude of
you know what, be be genuinely happy for somebody else's success,
you know what I mean. Like, especially in this industry,
(37:17):
it's really and I mean that like and that's.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Really really important.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
You know, we're all dealing with things, we all have families,
we all have issues, you know, and you never know
what somebody's going through, and so just be kind when
you can.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
It takes so much more energy.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
To be rude or you know, pardon my French, but
to just be an asshole.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Like, it's a much easier process in life of trying
to build out as much of a positive you know,
or a positivity the outcome and lift people up instead
of tearing them down. And that's how I would look
at at anything, like we're all on this planet together,
we should be taken care of one another. You will
have such more harmony in your life, I promise you.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
You see people you both look healthy and happy and
like Serene, the people I've met that have your attitude
as they get older, there is a youthfulness that still
like glows in them and I think there's something with
that as well, like just being happy for other people,
not wearing that stress. Like you can see people that
are just miserable for everyone in themselves. They're just like,
(38:18):
you're gonna be that, but you all like you just
have a glow about you. And i'd yeah, So I
want to thank you.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Brent calls it the carousel.
Speaker 7 (38:28):
When he when he gets ready to go to bed,
and I he thinks of all the people on the carousel,
that that that we all need to take care of.
Speaker 6 (38:37):
And it's important.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Man.
Speaker 6 (38:39):
I I love it. I love it. I love the music,
I love my partner, I love you know. I just
love it.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Man.
Speaker 6 (38:47):
I jump out of bed in the morning. It's great.
Speaker 5 (38:50):
Bill.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Where where can we uh send folks?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Do you have anything to plug any website or anything
coming up?
Speaker 6 (38:56):
Well, it's our website in the.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
Good, good entertaining, good entertainment.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
You know, everything's on social media, cash them TikTok to Instagram,
to Facebook, the whole, the whole kit and kaboodle.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
You got a bunch of artists, great artist.
Speaker 7 (39:12):
I am at the best place of my life because
I I love everybody I'm working with, and I know
that sounds corny and bs, but it's a family.
Speaker 6 (39:22):
What a pleasure it's been sitting in.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I really enjoyed having this conversation absolutely much.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 6 (39:30):
Thank you man, Thank you.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah, seriously, I had a blast.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Know, this is awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
It's really cool media and you're too, like this has
been great, this whole experience, but awesome.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, so thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
You know, this has been like taking as much time
when you're as busy as your already have kids and ship, like, I.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Really appreciate pleasure. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, all right, awesome interview. Thanks again, Uh, Brent Smith,
Bill mccafey.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
It really was like a real.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Raw and open discussion about depression and mental health and
addiction and all these things and the cries for help,
and yeah, it's just I commend people that are at
that level, particularly you know, in that time period to
talk about it that way. You know, it's pretty brave
theme and he was very raw about it, and you know,
they were trying to say, like, he's got to go
to rehab right now, and the people that are closest
(40:24):
to him, you know, and Bill were just saying it
probably would have been the worst thing for him at
that point, and for some people would be the best
thing for them at that point, and for others it's
just you got to meet people, and there's not this
one size fits all approach. I mean, I know working
in the criminal justice when I was an attorney and
we had criminal defendants at our law firm, there was
often times we would recommend do not take this rehab,
(40:46):
do not take this probation. You should just do the
time in jail and try to get outside help when
you get out, right, because you are going to fail
and then they're going to send you to prison for longer.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
That is not a system that's working when we're saying you.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Need help and the best approach is for you to
go to jail so we can figure it out on
the back end. Happens every single day in this country
in every single courthouse. I guarantee you ask any criminal
defense attorney. So it's that sort of stuff where we
don't have that, but we almost don't have that in society.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
It's already hard enough if like.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
People just want to push it, and I get it,
and I think some I just wanted to touch on
that kind of like made me think a little bit
more and it's kind of question that, you know, because
Brent's you know, completely clean now, and you know, we
started talking about psilocybin and some of the medical benefits
that can happen from PTSD mental health and actually treating
you know, addiction for opiates and things like that, helping
(41:33):
with withdrawals and and you know, kind of suppressing the
need for it and craving, and it must be really difficult,
and you could hear the skepticism and it's rightful from
someone that you know, substances were the thing that we're
getting them out, and you know, the pathway through was sobriety,
and so to say like the solution is also something like,
(41:55):
I get his skepticism, and so I had never thought
about it that way. So that was it was good
to hear that from a different perspective.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
And so yeah, yeah, it's probably hard to hear when
you know you've gotten clean, like oh, why didn't you
try drug? Yeah, why didn't you try more drug?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
You know, he's open to and I think that's what
we all just need to say and see is just
let's be open to this and just be you know,
let's be honest. Let's just be honest about what we're
talking about. So again, Yeah, Bill Brent, amazing.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
I'm Greg Lyve.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
This is the War on drugs.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
The War on Drugs is a production of Lava for
Good and Stand Together Music and association with Signal Company
Number one. Stand Together Music unites musicians and their teams
with proven change makers to co create solutions to some
of the most pressing.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Issues in our country, including.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Criminal justice, reform, addiction recovery, mental health, education, free speech,
and ending the War on drugs. Learn more at Stand
Together Music dot org.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Be sure to follow Lava for.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Good on Instagram, Facebook and threads at Law for Good.
You can follow Clayton English on Instagram, n X at
Clayton English, and you can follow Craig Laude on Instagram
and on X at Greg Lott. Executive producers Jason Flamm,
Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and Collette Wintraub. Senior producers Kelsey Stenecker,
(43:17):
Zak Huffman and Nick Stump. Post production by ten ten,
Audio talent booking by Dan Resnik. Rez Entertainment Head of
Marketing and Operations, Jeff Cleiburn, Social Media Director, Ismadi Gudarama,
social media Manager, Sarah Gibbons and art director Andrew Nelson.
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