May 13, 2025 • 19 mins
This season, we heard from artists, athletes, and entrepreneurs who’ve lived the consequences of the War on Drugs. But what’s next? In the finale, Greg and Clayton look at the biggest takeaways from these conversations and break down what we can all do to push for change.
A new episode of The War on Drugs will be available every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts.
The War on Drugs is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts and Stand Together Music in association with Signal Co. No1.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Lava for Good and Stand Together Music Present The War
on Drugs Podcast Season two. This season, we're diving deeper
into the real stories behind the War on Drugs, its impact,
its failures, and the people offering a better path forward.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hey that me and Greg, our guests and sponsors may
sound smart, We may even make some good points, but
at the end of the day, we're not medical professional.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast. Anything
we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Got it, Clayton, it's book report time.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, yeah, we at the end, man, Yeah, this group project,
we pulled it together.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
It was an amazing season and a lot of traveling
and meeting people where they were. Yeah, that was kind
of the of the season.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Right, yeah, man, way to bring that around. Yeah, we
met people definitely where they were.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah. I don't think nobody met us halfway.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Now we met We might have met each other halfway
when we were going.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Like yeah, yeah, what was some of the your favorite
moments lessons something that you took away?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Oh, man, I think.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Some of the lessons that I definitely took away is
the cannabis industry in the weed business, right being two
separate things that operate off each other.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
You know, the you know, regular market, the legal market
versus the black and the gray market, where because of
prohibition still because our federal government still schedules this as
a Schedule one drug, you know, you still have that
proliferation because you know, local laws and state laws cap
this market and make it a second class industry. You
(01:45):
allow for people that were you know, selling illegally you know,
quote unquote you know, through the laws and system to
continue to happen. The thing that you are trying to prevent,
you are allowing to thrive because of these things. And
it's just something we saw every single time, and every
single one of our conversations was that part where it
was like, if it was only this, you could only
just put some money in a bank, if you can
(02:07):
only just like say like hey, and all the great
stuff that we have seen with legalization, the fact that
you can literally go into places and actually get t
I mean, so many people have access to it that
just did not before, and that's.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
An amazing thing.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
But we're still seeing so much of the same stuff
happened because of prohibition. Like we've said, like you know,
the fact that it is a second class industry, the
fact that you know.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It's a cash business.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
So now people have to treat it in a different
way and it makes them more susceptible to being you know,
crimer and actually getting you know, it's all these things
that are happening, and we just need to kind of
look at that where hey, we haven't crossed the finish
line just yet.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
It's still a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
Yeah, And just kind of another takeaway I had from
the season, you know, kind of getting more on the
treatment and the things that we're seeing with psilocybin, and
you know, we talked a little bit about it last
you know season with you know, from the medical side,
from with on with Maps and you know, if if
you really want to look at some of the great
work that's going on with psilocybin research, with md m
(03:14):
A research just treating you know, addiction and PTSD and
all this stuff, go to Maps and see what they're doing.
We're seeing great progress there, but again, you know, the
FDA denies them from being you know, a treatment after
even seeing you know, the results that we've seen of.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Seeing people not having PTSD or AMIA requirements, not having
to deal with depression.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And it's it's it's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
So we're seeing that one step forward kind of two
steps back, but they are taking we are taking steps
in the fact that we had such a diverse array
of people come on and talk about their own all.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Walks yeah, of life, all different backgrounds, all different stories,
all different.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Paths, right exactly, all different paths, and you could genuinely
hear their excitement and enthusiasm because these are people that
went through struggles and they almost want it. It's like
someone that's like, you know, got baptized just wants to scream.
You know, it's like singing from the mountaintop that like, hey,
other people that are hurting like me, like this could
(04:19):
be a solution. And you can hear like the excitement
and then also the the sadness from you know, someone
like Brent who's thinking of other people that didn't get
the chance to maybe do things, or you know, it's
just all these It was just a really kind of rollercoaster.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Yeah, it was kind of a trip.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, it was definitely a trip. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
In one also, Liz Karamus talking about CBD rain, yeah,
and the inflammation being able to be decreased by some
of these things, and yeah, man, all of that was interesting.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
You know, military people don't like to go out on
a limb that often and kind of shout things. But
the people that are leading this a lot are you know,
not only former but active military members.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
When they reel, they can speak up.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
You know, Liz said it it's going to have to
come from the officers and the officer class to kind
of build that up. And I think it's something that's
gonna need to occur, Like you can't deny some of
these results at some point. And I just hope in
the next you know, year, so there is some movement
in you know a little bit at the federal level
to allow for the VA to do a little bit
more testing, a little bit more research, a little bit
(05:24):
more conversations that still hasn't passed.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
It's these types of things, so.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Solely but surely hopefully the research will kind of catch
up to our institutions. It takes a while sometimes, you know,
they're like the you know, setting their ways cross the
old man.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And then also, you know, is a lot of undoing.
It's a lot of unlearning that people have to do
because that's caused by the War on drug Yeah, they
painted it in there's light and it's hard to you know,
get get people to see it in another way.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yeah, and understanding that, you know, the skeptics aren't just
folks that are just saying this because they don't like
drugs or saying it's you know, it's people that dealt
with addiction. You know, with doctor Brent Smith who said,
you know, hey, it feels weird to me, like coming
from a place of addiction to think that this can
be helpful in that way when it's so And I
get that, and you know, but he still said, you know,
(06:16):
I'm open to these things. And I think that's again
we just have to be honest and open. That's another
thread line through this, just let's be honest about both
sides of everything. And I'm you know, that was a
big takeaway for me as well. With the therapeutists on
psychedelics and things like that. Again, it's kind of this
dominant that has to topple at the at the top,
at the tippy top too, at the federal government to
kind of let this go where we have these restrictions
(06:39):
like in the tax code that now like people can't
do you know, banking the way that they they're able to,
and you know, to allow for cannabis industry to thrive,
and you know, to have like research being stymied and
not allow for you know, psilocybin or MDMA to be
used as treatment you get into like you know, it
just takes all these big haunches. Then that's when insurance come.
(07:00):
You know, think about that, and we talked about that
so much with like veterans they can get how much
antidepressants and opi it's off of there, but they're not
able to get this because it can't be insured right now.
And so it's all these little things that hopefully will
start to slide away. And that's that's my hope for
the next year and five years. And yeah, we'll probably
be on season.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Thirty five drugs.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, but I think we'll be closer because I know
we often talk about it's one step forward, two steps back.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
What would you give this year?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Would you give it a step forward or would you
give it two back?
Speaker 5 (07:33):
I'd say it was I'll do a boxing analogy where
I think it's one of those early rounds in a
big match, and both everyone's kind of feeling each other. Okay,
presidential election going.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
On, only so much you can do there.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Yeah, when things get on the ballot with the presidential election,
it warps who's kind of voting, who's not, how much
attention those.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Issues get there, Just keep voting, right.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
It just wasn't like a lot of stuff going on,
and that kind of happens in transition. But I do
think that fact that both parties have signaled at the
top of their level. You know, President Trump came out
and said he was going to vote for Amendment three
in Florida, which was, you know, going to legalize cannabis there,
and you know him and you know Vice President Vance
have both set you know, it kind of comes from
a place of we're throwing people in prison for something
(08:18):
that other people can profit from and this piecemeal thing
where you can go in one place another. I mean,
those are the things that he's saying, and it's a
kind of a noe duh, like it just doesn't make sense.
And so, you know, whatever you think of either side,
we're not trying to get publically here. It's just it's
very promising to hear that it's just never been that way.
And I think, you know, once you have a tipping
(08:38):
point a lot of this stuff, it can it can
start to tumble pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Party's looking at it in a similar fashion, not maybe
the exact same view, but yeah, realizing and trying to
correct the course that we're going.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
And the other thing to remember is like, not all
progress is always good progress, like we've seen, like you
have to have these things set up, you have to
be mindful of what all these causes and consequences can have,
and so the job's not done. Don't turn a blind
eye once you vote, like, understand what's happening in your community,
what's going on, how are these licenses getting divvied out.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
All this type of stuff. There's just a lot lot.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Lots of the handle.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Okay, man, you know I got to come to you
for the call to action? Was the play? Was the plan?
If we're in a huddle, what do people need to do?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Man? While you've got them listening.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
I think you know, sometimes we're just like, you know,
call your local congressmen, and that's all well and good,
but there are like I think, particularly with this issue,
you know, if things don't feel like overwhelming on other things,
because there obviously is policy stuff and you should and
you should be educated on this, and a lot of
stuff happens local, So your council meetings and all these
those are things that really matter a lot as well,
(10:01):
and so you should be mindful of what we need
to do at the federal level. Demand these things, but
really be honest and what's going on in your community
and how that's operating. But even getting closer to it,
like if you know your friend or family struggling with
something or suffering, you know, talk to them about you know,
some of this or share these experiences. Maybe it's like, hey,
I know you like Shine Down, I know you like Brothers,
(10:24):
I know you like Benny the Butch. Like listen to
what they're saying or like something like that maybe this
will help or some other information to give them, Like
you can actually really mean a lot to like your
small area and maybe you're influential on some folks around
you that could look up to you and saying like oh, hey,
this person's being you know, open and honest about their
experiences or what they heard. It's it can really mean
(10:45):
a lot. Like we saw that like it may have
saved you know, John Osborne's friend's life, having that conversation.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
It done costs anything.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
So that's you know, it's always like these are the laws,
these are the things, we've talked about them all year,
but like that could have a profound impact just kind
of having the discussions. And I know I am and
I've been even with people that's a little uncomfortable, you know,
with the old man, and.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Uh yeah, that can always be cop.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think a lot of
times people throw their hands up like what can I do?
What can be done? And I think that's a very
actionable thing. It really done is the people you're around,
listening to them, offering them the resources that works for
you are what you found out there that may be
(11:28):
able to provide them insight. Not saying it's gonna be relief,
not saying it's gonna be the answer, not gonna say
that it's gonna work, but looking at stuff a different way,
hearing it from somebody who's respected, hearing it from somebody
who's in a field where they experience the very thing
(11:48):
that you're going through. That all can help. Man, So
be the change you know that you want to.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
See and just.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
When it does, like I said before, when it doesn't
cost nothing that yeah, you know what I'm saying, do
that if this person, if listening to this person is
going to be beneficial to them, if you got the time, why.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Would you not do that?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Exactly?
Speaker 5 (12:09):
Yeah, you know these really are They're not even like
criminal justice issues. This is about like people's health. These
are like the issues that people pain, pain, health, mental health. Yeah,
just dealing with trauma and suffering. I mean, these are
the things that we talk about all day, every day,
and all we're saying is these are potential paths to
(12:32):
help with these types of things to have a better
health and overall well being. Because at the end of
the day, what we're doing right now, I don't think
anyone can say this is working. So let's just like
take a step back, cause I feel like a lot
of the time, the fighting the war on drugs, you're
on the defense of quite a bit, and so it
is kind of like flipping around, what are we defending.
(12:54):
More people are homeless and suffering from substance abuse disorders,
then more than ever, we're more people are dying from
overdose than ever. Drugs are cheaper, and stronger than ever.
What are you defending right now? At the very least,
can we have conversations about some of these other things
that are going on. Suicide race for veterans are skyrocketing,
Like can we have a conversation?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
That's all we're saying.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Don't talk about what's convenient to your point, Yes, be
honest and talk about these things in their totality exactly.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
Yeah, it's about giving those options and not making it
some risky proposition to am I being a criminal or
being something weird or trying to help myself?
Speaker 4 (13:32):
I think a lot of people struggle with that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
One of the things that I think we really hammered
home on this season was the best people to talk
about these situations are the people that's closest to us, right,
And I mean we've got countless examples of that this season.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
John Osborne, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Stopping his friend from a planned suicide, just saying, hey, man,
maybe try this.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Brent Smith, his manager, stepping in at a time where
you know, he could have been a sleazy manager, but
he saw something and was like, no, let's do this,
Let's handle this the right way. And so it's a
concerted effort. It's a community effort. You have to be
there for your people, and your people have to be
(14:15):
there for you. And that's the only way I think
this works. I think that's how we're supposed to live
as a society. I agree, that's how we maximize living
in this crazy world we live in.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Yeah, and if you want to be active on the
policy side and really get informed, I mean, the biggest
dominoes are still at the federal level, and until they
speak on this and kind of allow for you know,
this enterprise to continue and to understand it's going to
continue to be this way, and so descheduling up there,
allowing for banks to be allowed to you know, work
with the industry and doing all these things, that's what
(14:50):
it's going to take. Until then, you're always going to
have that maybe we're about to do something elide because
technically you are know what your representative's thoughts are, like
email them, call them, like they do respond and like
I've worked in offices when a lot of people ask
about something, they have to say so you yeah, and
so it really does matter, and that's what it's going
(15:10):
to take to really kind of see all these things,
you know, come to fruition. And so there's a lot
of work still at the local and state, but if
you get that one tipping point to start to come down,
it'd be incredibly impactful and we would see a lot
of positive benefits and a lot of the complications that
we see with this kind of piecemeal system. Kind of
go away and share those stories.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Use this podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, use your personal experience if you got it, But
if you don't, you got a resource right here with.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Us, because stories matter, and it brings a face to
it when you're just kind of saying, you know, hey,
these are the statistics and all these things.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
You know, it makes it real. It really does.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Sometimes the language we use it just dehumanizes people and
it quantifies them. It makes them a thing and not
a person, and it's hard to separate the person from
a person.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Story agreed.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Anybody that's skeptical or not sure where it's going. If
you didn't if you can't look at some of these
studies with psilocybin and what they're doing with PTSD and veterans,
if you can't look at lizit story about the brain
decreasing inflammation, if you can't listen to John Osborne talk
(16:24):
about the neuroplasticity and if I think that's the biggest
takeaway is these things are working for some people. You know,
these things are beneficial to some people. So what knowledge
do you have that's making you push back against the
information that's out there.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Yeah, just be a little bit more understanding of other
people's stories and how that they came to it, and
not think that it's some excuse just to get high.
It's actually medicine is actually trying to help other people.
So even if you're not going to go down a
path of this or even look at it, just be
more ethetic and understanding of other people's you know, successes
or benefits that they've had from some things that we
(17:05):
talked about.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, we talked to a lot of skeptics that kind.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Of when yeah and experiment and did something else or
have been more open about it. And I think that's
really important to show that you.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Got to be hoping, Hey, this has been great. Yeah,
great season. I hope you all, you know, benefited from this.
I hope these stories, you know, allow you to make
an impact on the people that you care about, the
people around you.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
We appreciated season two. Thank you all again for listening.
I'm Greg Laude.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
And I'm Clayton English and this has been The War
on Drugs podcast Season two, Take.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Care the War on Drugs is a production of Lava
for Good and Stand Together Music and association with Signal
Company Number one. Stand Together Music unites musicians and their
teams with proven change makers to co create solutions to
some of the most pressing issues in our country, including
criminal justice, reform, addiction, recover mental health, education, free speech,
(18:03):
and ending the War on drugs. Learn more at Standogether
Music dot org. Be sure to follow Lava for Good
on Instagram, Facebook and threads at Lava for Good. You
can follow Clayton English on Instagram, n X at Clayton English,
and you can follow Greig Laude on Instagram and on
X at Greg Latt. Executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,
(18:26):
Kevin Wartis, and Collette Wintraub. Senior producers Kelsey Stenecker, Zak
Huffman and Nick Stump. Post production by ten ten, Audio
talent booking by Dan Resnik res Entertainment Head of Marketing
and Operations, Jeff Cleiburn, Social Media Director, Ismadi Gudarama, Social
media manager Sarah Gibbons and art director Andrew Nelson.
Lava for Good and Stand Together Music Present The War
on Drugs Podcast Season two. This season, we're diving deeper
into the real stories behind the War on Drugs, its impact,
its failures, and the people offering a better path forward.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hey that me and Greg, our guests and sponsors may
sound smart, We may even make some good points, but
at the end of the day, we're not medical professional.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast. Anything
we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Got it, Clayton, it's book report time.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, yeah, we at the end, man, Yeah, this group project,
we pulled it together.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
It was an amazing season and a lot of traveling
and meeting people where they were. Yeah, that was kind
of the of the season.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Right, yeah, man, way to bring that around. Yeah, we
met people definitely where they were.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah. I don't think nobody met us halfway.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Now we met We might have met each other halfway
when we were going.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Like yeah, yeah, what was some of the your favorite
moments lessons something that you took away?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Oh, man, I think.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Some of the lessons that I definitely took away is
the cannabis industry in the weed business, right being two
separate things that operate off each other.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
You know, the you know, regular market, the legal market
versus the black and the gray market, where because of
prohibition still because our federal government still schedules this as
a Schedule one drug, you know, you still have that
proliferation because you know, local laws and state laws cap
this market and make it a second class industry. You
(01:45):
allow for people that were you know, selling illegally you know,
quote unquote you know, through the laws and system to
continue to happen. The thing that you are trying to prevent,
you are allowing to thrive because of these things. And
it's just something we saw every single time, and every
single one of our conversations was that part where it
was like, if it was only this, you could only
just put some money in a bank, if you can
(02:07):
only just like say like hey, and all the great
stuff that we have seen with legalization, the fact that
you can literally go into places and actually get t
I mean, so many people have access to it that
just did not before, and that's.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
An amazing thing.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
But we're still seeing so much of the same stuff
happened because of prohibition. Like we've said, like you know,
the fact that it is a second class industry, the
fact that you know.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It's a cash business.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
So now people have to treat it in a different
way and it makes them more susceptible to being you know,
crimer and actually getting you know, it's all these things
that are happening, and we just need to kind of
look at that where hey, we haven't crossed the finish
line just yet.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
It's still a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
Yeah, And just kind of another takeaway I had from
the season, you know, kind of getting more on the
treatment and the things that we're seeing with psilocybin, and
you know, we talked a little bit about it last
you know season with you know, from the medical side,
from with on with Maps and you know, if if
you really want to look at some of the great
work that's going on with psilocybin research, with md m
(03:14):
A research just treating you know, addiction and PTSD and
all this stuff, go to Maps and see what they're doing.
We're seeing great progress there, but again, you know, the
FDA denies them from being you know, a treatment after
even seeing you know, the results that we've seen of.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Seeing people not having PTSD or AMIA requirements, not having
to deal with depression.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And it's it's it's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
So we're seeing that one step forward kind of two
steps back, but they are taking we are taking steps
in the fact that we had such a diverse array
of people come on and talk about their own all.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Walks yeah, of life, all different backgrounds, all different stories,
all different.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Paths, right exactly, all different paths, and you could genuinely
hear their excitement and enthusiasm because these are people that
went through struggles and they almost want it. It's like
someone that's like, you know, got baptized just wants to scream.
You know, it's like singing from the mountaintop that like, hey,
other people that are hurting like me, like this could
(04:19):
be a solution. And you can hear like the excitement
and then also the the sadness from you know, someone
like Brent who's thinking of other people that didn't get
the chance to maybe do things, or you know, it's
just all these It was just a really kind of rollercoaster.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Yeah, it was kind of a trip.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, it was definitely a trip. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
In one also, Liz Karamus talking about CBD rain, yeah,
and the inflammation being able to be decreased by some
of these things, and yeah, man, all of that was interesting.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
You know, military people don't like to go out on
a limb that often and kind of shout things. But
the people that are leading this a lot are you know,
not only former but active military members.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
When they reel, they can speak up.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
You know, Liz said it it's going to have to
come from the officers and the officer class to kind
of build that up. And I think it's something that's
gonna need to occur, Like you can't deny some of
these results at some point. And I just hope in
the next you know, year, so there is some movement
in you know a little bit at the federal level
to allow for the VA to do a little bit
more testing, a little bit more research, a little bit
(05:24):
more conversations that still hasn't passed.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
It's these types of things, so.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Solely but surely hopefully the research will kind of catch
up to our institutions. It takes a while sometimes, you know,
they're like the you know, setting their ways cross the
old man.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And then also, you know, is a lot of undoing.
It's a lot of unlearning that people have to do
because that's caused by the War on drug Yeah, they
painted it in there's light and it's hard to you know,
get get people to see it in another way.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yeah, and understanding that, you know, the skeptics aren't just
folks that are just saying this because they don't like
drugs or saying it's you know, it's people that dealt
with addiction. You know, with doctor Brent Smith who said,
you know, hey, it feels weird to me, like coming
from a place of addiction to think that this can
be helpful in that way when it's so And I
get that, and you know, but he still said, you know,
(06:16):
I'm open to these things. And I think that's again
we just have to be honest and open. That's another
thread line through this, just let's be honest about both
sides of everything. And I'm you know, that was a
big takeaway for me as well. With the therapeutists on
psychedelics and things like that. Again, it's kind of this
dominant that has to topple at the at the top,
at the tippy top too, at the federal government to
kind of let this go where we have these restrictions
(06:39):
like in the tax code that now like people can't
do you know, banking the way that they they're able to,
and you know, to allow for cannabis industry to thrive,
and you know, to have like research being stymied and
not allow for you know, psilocybin or MDMA to be
used as treatment you get into like you know, it
just takes all these big haunches. Then that's when insurance come.
(07:00):
You know, think about that, and we talked about that
so much with like veterans they can get how much
antidepressants and opi it's off of there, but they're not
able to get this because it can't be insured right now.
And so it's all these little things that hopefully will
start to slide away. And that's that's my hope for
the next year and five years. And yeah, we'll probably
be on season.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Thirty five drugs.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, but I think we'll be closer because I know
we often talk about it's one step forward, two steps back.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
What would you give this year?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Would you give it a step forward or would you
give it two back?
Speaker 5 (07:33):
I'd say it was I'll do a boxing analogy where
I think it's one of those early rounds in a
big match, and both everyone's kind of feeling each other. Okay,
presidential election going.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
On, only so much you can do there.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Yeah, when things get on the ballot with the presidential election,
it warps who's kind of voting, who's not, how much
attention those.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Issues get there, Just keep voting, right.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
It just wasn't like a lot of stuff going on,
and that kind of happens in transition. But I do
think that fact that both parties have signaled at the
top of their level. You know, President Trump came out
and said he was going to vote for Amendment three
in Florida, which was, you know, going to legalize cannabis there,
and you know him and you know Vice President Vance
have both set you know, it kind of comes from
a place of we're throwing people in prison for something
(08:18):
that other people can profit from and this piecemeal thing
where you can go in one place another. I mean,
those are the things that he's saying, and it's a
kind of a noe duh, like it just doesn't make sense.
And so, you know, whatever you think of either side,
we're not trying to get publically here. It's just it's
very promising to hear that it's just never been that way.
And I think, you know, once you have a tipping
(08:38):
point a lot of this stuff, it can it can
start to tumble pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Party's looking at it in a similar fashion, not maybe
the exact same view, but yeah, realizing and trying to
correct the course that we're going.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
And the other thing to remember is like, not all
progress is always good progress, like we've seen, like you
have to have these things set up, you have to
be mindful of what all these causes and consequences can have,
and so the job's not done. Don't turn a blind
eye once you vote, like, understand what's happening in your community,
what's going on, how are these licenses getting divvied out.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
All this type of stuff. There's just a lot lot.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Lots of the handle.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Okay, man, you know I got to come to you
for the call to action? Was the play? Was the plan?
If we're in a huddle, what do people need to do?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Man? While you've got them listening.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
I think you know, sometimes we're just like, you know,
call your local congressmen, and that's all well and good,
but there are like I think, particularly with this issue,
you know, if things don't feel like overwhelming on other things,
because there obviously is policy stuff and you should and
you should be educated on this, and a lot of
stuff happens local, So your council meetings and all these
those are things that really matter a lot as well,
(10:01):
and so you should be mindful of what we need
to do at the federal level. Demand these things, but
really be honest and what's going on in your community
and how that's operating. But even getting closer to it,
like if you know your friend or family struggling with
something or suffering, you know, talk to them about you know,
some of this or share these experiences. Maybe it's like, hey,
I know you like Shine Down, I know you like Brothers,
(10:24):
I know you like Benny the Butch. Like listen to
what they're saying or like something like that maybe this
will help or some other information to give them, Like
you can actually really mean a lot to like your
small area and maybe you're influential on some folks around
you that could look up to you and saying like oh, hey,
this person's being you know, open and honest about their
experiences or what they heard. It's it can really mean
(10:45):
a lot. Like we saw that like it may have
saved you know, John Osborne's friend's life, having that conversation.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
It done costs anything.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
So that's you know, it's always like these are the laws,
these are the things, we've talked about them all year,
but like that could have a profound impact just kind
of having the discussions. And I know I am and
I've been even with people that's a little uncomfortable, you know,
with the old man, and.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Uh yeah, that can always be cop.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think a lot of
times people throw their hands up like what can I do?
What can be done? And I think that's a very
actionable thing. It really done is the people you're around,
listening to them, offering them the resources that works for
you are what you found out there that may be
(11:28):
able to provide them insight. Not saying it's gonna be relief,
not saying it's gonna be the answer, not gonna say
that it's gonna work, but looking at stuff a different way,
hearing it from somebody who's respected, hearing it from somebody
who's in a field where they experience the very thing
(11:48):
that you're going through. That all can help. Man, So
be the change you know that you want to.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
See and just.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
When it does, like I said before, when it doesn't
cost nothing that yeah, you know what I'm saying, do
that if this person, if listening to this person is
going to be beneficial to them, if you got the time, why.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Would you not do that?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Exactly?
Speaker 5 (12:09):
Yeah, you know these really are They're not even like
criminal justice issues. This is about like people's health. These
are like the issues that people pain, pain, health, mental health. Yeah,
just dealing with trauma and suffering. I mean, these are
the things that we talk about all day, every day,
and all we're saying is these are potential paths to
(12:32):
help with these types of things to have a better
health and overall well being. Because at the end of
the day, what we're doing right now, I don't think
anyone can say this is working. So let's just like
take a step back, cause I feel like a lot
of the time, the fighting the war on drugs, you're
on the defense of quite a bit, and so it
is kind of like flipping around, what are we defending.
(12:54):
More people are homeless and suffering from substance abuse disorders,
then more than ever, we're more people are dying from
overdose than ever. Drugs are cheaper, and stronger than ever.
What are you defending right now? At the very least,
can we have conversations about some of these other things
that are going on. Suicide race for veterans are skyrocketing,
Like can we have a conversation?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
That's all we're saying.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Don't talk about what's convenient to your point, Yes, be
honest and talk about these things in their totality exactly.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
Yeah, it's about giving those options and not making it
some risky proposition to am I being a criminal or
being something weird or trying to help myself?
Speaker 4 (13:32):
I think a lot of people struggle with that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
One of the things that I think we really hammered
home on this season was the best people to talk
about these situations are the people that's closest to us, right,
And I mean we've got countless examples of that this season.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
John Osborne, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Stopping his friend from a planned suicide, just saying, hey, man,
maybe try this.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Brent Smith, his manager, stepping in at a time where
you know, he could have been a sleazy manager, but
he saw something and was like, no, let's do this,
Let's handle this the right way. And so it's a
concerted effort. It's a community effort. You have to be
there for your people, and your people have to be
(14:15):
there for you. And that's the only way I think
this works. I think that's how we're supposed to live
as a society. I agree, that's how we maximize living
in this crazy world we live in.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Yeah, and if you want to be active on the
policy side and really get informed, I mean, the biggest
dominoes are still at the federal level, and until they
speak on this and kind of allow for you know,
this enterprise to continue and to understand it's going to
continue to be this way, and so descheduling up there,
allowing for banks to be allowed to you know, work
with the industry and doing all these things, that's what
(14:50):
it's going to take. Until then, you're always going to
have that maybe we're about to do something elide because
technically you are know what your representative's thoughts are, like
email them, call them, like they do respond and like
I've worked in offices when a lot of people ask
about something, they have to say so you yeah, and
so it really does matter, and that's what it's going
(15:10):
to take to really kind of see all these things,
you know, come to fruition. And so there's a lot
of work still at the local and state, but if
you get that one tipping point to start to come down,
it'd be incredibly impactful and we would see a lot
of positive benefits and a lot of the complications that
we see with this kind of piecemeal system. Kind of
go away and share those stories.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Use this podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, use your personal experience if you got it, But
if you don't, you got a resource right here with.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Us, because stories matter, and it brings a face to
it when you're just kind of saying, you know, hey,
these are the statistics and all these things.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
You know, it makes it real. It really does.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Sometimes the language we use it just dehumanizes people and
it quantifies them. It makes them a thing and not
a person, and it's hard to separate the person from
a person.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Story agreed.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Anybody that's skeptical or not sure where it's going. If
you didn't if you can't look at some of these
studies with psilocybin and what they're doing with PTSD and veterans,
if you can't look at lizit story about the brain
decreasing inflammation, if you can't listen to John Osborne talk
(16:24):
about the neuroplasticity and if I think that's the biggest
takeaway is these things are working for some people. You know,
these things are beneficial to some people. So what knowledge
do you have that's making you push back against the
information that's out there.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Yeah, just be a little bit more understanding of other
people's stories and how that they came to it, and
not think that it's some excuse just to get high.
It's actually medicine is actually trying to help other people.
So even if you're not going to go down a
path of this or even look at it, just be
more ethetic and understanding of other people's you know, successes
or benefits that they've had from some things that we
(17:05):
talked about.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, we talked to a lot of skeptics that kind.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Of when yeah and experiment and did something else or
have been more open about it. And I think that's
really important to show that you.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Got to be hoping, Hey, this has been great. Yeah,
great season. I hope you all, you know, benefited from this.
I hope these stories, you know, allow you to make
an impact on the people that you care about, the
people around you.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
We appreciated season two. Thank you all again for listening.
I'm Greg Laude.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
And I'm Clayton English and this has been The War
on Drugs podcast Season two, Take.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Care the War on Drugs is a production of Lava
for Good and Stand Together Music and association with Signal
Company Number one. Stand Together Music unites musicians and their
teams with proven change makers to co create solutions to
some of the most pressing issues in our country, including
criminal justice, reform, addiction, recover mental health, education, free speech,
(18:03):
and ending the War on drugs. Learn more at Standogether
Music dot org. Be sure to follow Lava for Good
on Instagram, Facebook and threads at Lava for Good. You
can follow Clayton English on Instagram, n X at Clayton English,
and you can follow Greig Laude on Instagram and on
X at Greg Latt. Executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,
(18:26):
Kevin Wartis, and Collette Wintraub. Senior producers Kelsey Stenecker, Zak
Huffman and Nick Stump. Post production by ten ten, Audio
talent booking by Dan Resnik res Entertainment Head of Marketing
and Operations, Jeff Cleiburn, Social Media Director, Ismadi Gudarama, Social
media manager Sarah Gibbons and art director Andrew Nelson.
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