April 22, 2020 • 17 mins
A rabbi explains why learning to sit with life’s big questions and being comfortable not knowing are infinitely more important than the answers themselves.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is the way we live now.
Today is day forty three since we've been social distancing,
staying at home if we can, and day seven of
this podcast. I think many of us are feeling lonely, frightened.
I'll speak for myself. There are times when I feel
lonely and frightened. What we're living through now may set
(00:28):
off memories or feelings about other difficult times. Who do
we turn to when the whole world is suffering? My
guest today is one of this country's most beloved and
respected spiritual leaders, Rabbi David Anger. David, thank you so
much for joining me on the Way we Live now.
(00:52):
I keep thinking about the way that we can't visit
one another, and as I was getting ready to call you,
my mind was pulled back to a couple of visits
that you and I had last summer when my husband
Michael was very sick with cancer. And I remember walking
through Central Park from the hospital to your apartment, all
(01:13):
the way across Manhattan, and we visited and it was
such a comfort. Would you invite us all into your
home now for a virtual visit? Where are you sitting,
what are you looking at what's going on with you.
It's so funny. As I was deciding we're gonna sit
(01:34):
for this call last minutes, I naturally gravitated back towards
the place that you and I had sat together, which
is in the corner of our living room in the
upper west side of Manhattan. It's kind of there are
windows inter facing the Hudson River and this the general expanses.
We're on the top floor of our building, so we
can see all the way down the West Side Highway
(01:57):
now and see the what did you really very busy
highway that is kind of you know, one or two
cars at a time, and in Senior Jersey off in
the distance, and I can see a lot of clouds.
So I'm looking at a bird now in flight. It's
rather quiet now for the moment. My youngest son, or
who was almost four, sleeping in the baby carriage, and
(02:19):
my other two sons are with my wife, so we're
at a relatively quiet time. Now we're in abrah home,
and so we want to welcome you and everyone else.
It was walked from whoever wherever you've walked from, so
to speak, to be with us. How is it to
be a spiritual leader. During this time, I've thought so
(02:40):
much about that question and what it must feel like.
And I imagine that you are surrounded by your congregants
and people who are questioning this moment and how it
can possibly have come to pass. Our community, now, thank god,
over the last fourteen years, has grown and we have,
you know, one of our thousand members in this community,
(03:02):
and then beyond it, places that I've taught of the
last decade and a half, and no shortage of people
that I feel are part of my inner circle or
my I guess, my inner community as well as my
physical community. So I'm getting questions from everywhere, and I
think the first thing that appears to a spiritual leader,
let's say, in my position, a lot of different kinds
of spiritual leaders, but in my particular position very much
(03:27):
what you just said, that the sense of a pastoral presence,
in the importance to to try to frame for people
what's happening, as well as meet them where they are
and offer support. You know, obviously it's a very challenging time.
It's an understatement, and the general sense for me is
how do I how do I support people at this
moment without giving simplistic and overly I guess probably Anish
(03:50):
spiritual advice. I think that the first, the first rule
of our spiritual vocation, of our calling, is to be
to be with, but notwithstanding the limits on what being
with means right now, but being with means both being
with them in presence, but also being with them in
sometimes to spare and hopelessness and a sense of futility
(04:12):
and a sense of a major sense of anxiety around
what's what's coming around the corner. And I think often
when people think of religion or spirituality, to think of answers.
But I think that more often than not, great spiritual
teachers and great spiritual devotees, people who are really on
the path, as it were, we learned, I think to
be with questions, to be with uncertainties, to do with
(04:34):
not knowing in a way that is not always very comfortable,
And certainly now more than you know, I can't imactionally
a better time, you know, in this moment to think
of how much we don't know, and how much the
wrong kinds of answers make more suffering than even the
questions themselves. And so I trying to do with the
(04:55):
questions in a way to be with the people where
they are, and at the same time balanced that with
what of times and you know, a real deep sense
of hope and deep sense of we're going to make
it through this together. And so I think that's really
what the challenge here has had to balance both naming
was true in the moment and at the same time
holding out a vision for what might yet come when
(05:15):
people are really really freaking out about about that, like
you know, what's what's next? M hm. You know. It's
reminding me of this moment probably about ten years ago,
where I was doing an event with Rabbi Laura Geller
in Los Angeles and it was at her congregation and
she and I were on stage along with Sylvia Borstein,
(05:37):
and there was this moment that Rabbi Geller was speaking,
and so I was looking out at the audience and
listening to her, and she said, the God of our
childhoods fails us m And I remember it struck me
so hard because I was looking out at her congregance
and what I saw on their faces was relief, you know,
(06:00):
relief that their rabbi would say such a thing. What
you just said just reminded me of that so much.
Because the living in the questions and the being. You know,
it's bringing me right back to sitting on that sofa
with you. You didn't tell me everything was going to
be okay. You didn't have that download, you didn't have
that information. You know, you didn't have a crystal ball.
(06:21):
But you you held my fear and anxiety and sorrow
and grief in this space. And you know, one of
the things that's been striking me lately is that never before,
certainly not in my lifetime or in in in memory,
have we all been in this together. M hm. There's
(06:42):
no one in the world who's not in this right.
Can you hear that siren? I don't know if that's
being picked up siren and sirens don't stop, you know, Yeah,
I've heard that from all of the people that I
talked to in the city. Is that that's the sound? Now?
You know, there's no under the usual honking and none
of the usual usual bustle, but just these sounds of
(07:04):
these lonely sirens. Yeah. And then and then there's this
other siren that goes out at seven o'clock every night
here in the city, the siren of people leaning out
of their windows each and every night here in the
city and around I think in all the boroughs, there's
a to become the custom here. Then the custom is
that at seven o'clock there's a there's a cheer that
(07:26):
rises up for all of the health workers and others
who are on the front lines. And and it it's
pretty remarkable actually to hear both of those, the absolute
sense of the abyss of how this is reaching into
every corner and every socio economic and neighborhood and you
name it. Everyone is being touched in some way with
(07:46):
the first siren. And there's also this equal force that
rises up that is equally universal, equally I mean, it's
not just New York, right, just you know, it's expression
is New York. But it's this power of the people
to say we are we can meet this fear with
the power of our love. The fear is real, and
so is the love. And I think that you know, again,
I'm very as you know, and you're you're the same
(08:08):
way with this, Like we we never try to make
lemonade too soon, right, you have to be really careful
about about the ways that we're learning lessons, you know,
especially in the midst of it. But one of the
things that certainly is happening, and it's not happening quote
unquote because but it's happening in spite of all the
all the ways that people are still you still still
you see kind of the ego and people grasping for
(08:32):
their saying in countries saying me first. But that's not
the predominant voice here. The predominant voice is a global
recognition that we are all in this together, and that
as we rise, we all rise, and as we fall,
we all fall, and that that that powerful spiritual message
is something that that has long been needed and been
(08:55):
and been you know, been spoken to. But at this
moment we're seeing it across the globe, across this the
way that the global issue are of an environmental crisis. Also,
the climate crisis was was also a part of what
we were trying to have everybody recognized. But here, in
a way, this is striking a much more immediate accord
with people's recognition that we are all right. No one
(09:17):
is immune to this, but at the same time, we
are all globally connected to the right responding in that way.
That's pretty remarkable. It really is what are your own
practices that you can turn to in a moment like this,
how are you taking care of yourself when you're also
(09:38):
holding space for so many other people. So I think
that the first rule for me that I'd like to
you know, tell your listeners, and I remind myself of
this and others every day, is that the notion of
that that oxygen masks metaphor. You know that before you
put the oxygen mask on the child or the one
next to you, you have to put your own oxygen
mask on first and hold true, you know, whether it's
(10:01):
in parenting or in you know, relationships. The most important
thing that we can do is self regulated at this moment,
and by that I mean exactly what you're asking. The
practice is that brings us back to the capacity to
do with ourselves, where is our fears, with our strengths,
with whatever this moment is is bringing forth. So for me,
(10:21):
it's meditation, it's silence, um, it's deep breathing right, standing
on my feet and breathing into my body from head
to toe and allowing myself to fully exhale our nervous
system right. And the practices of our spiritual traditions are
trying to in some way regulate our our our nervous system,
even as fear right most to the body, even as
(10:43):
anger or despair or whatever it might be, whatever fielding
comes over us. So the first thing I do is
I try to center myself many many times a day,
through breath, through prayer, through silence, and meditation. That's number one.
Number two is connection, right, connection through speaking to friends
(11:06):
and partners and you know, other human beings. Even if
we can't be with them physically, we can we can
corregulate with them. Part of what we do is when
we share with our friends and we reach out, is
that we help ourselves corregulate. Sometimes that happens through social media.
Often it doesn't because social media can actually exacerbate some
of our of our of our fearful places. But social
(11:29):
media can be useful, and so you can just picking
up a phone and calling somebody and connecting with them
and saying I'm really just needing to connect. So those
are two like core core pieces of of this. And
the third piece is is that I tell people. And
this is, by the way, a lot of this work
comes from a parenting coach name Laura Markham. I can't
(11:49):
I can't suggest Laura Markham enough. Her website. Ah parenting
is remarkable and some of her and I always tell
people the deepest era that I teach in the world,
I learned from my kids, and I learned about being
a parent and how we connect with our children, because ostensibly,
as we grow into adults and we're also still taking
care of children, they happen to be internal to us.
And uh and the way that we parents are external
(12:11):
children if you have them, or grandchildren or whoever it is,
is also the way that we relate to the inner
chrials or the place in us, the levels of our
inness in us that sometimes drop in and out of
being an adult. Right. And so the third piece of
this work of self regulated and then connect is to
to coach, not coerced or control. And I really really
(12:33):
take that to heart and every day that um, when
I when I speak to myself for my kids, that's
controlling them or cursing them. Right. It seems like it
works in the short term, but it doesn't in the
long term. And so coaching ourselves means adopting the voice
and speaking to ourselves a place of compassion and speaking
to others from a place of support. Right. So something
(12:57):
along the lines of how do we coach ourselves to
the day to get through the day. How might we
find a voice that will be the voice of the
best coach that we ever had, the best teacher that
we ever had, that wouldn't be full of controlling or coercion.
But more, how can I support you? How can I
help you? How can I hold this with you? How
(13:17):
can I get you to the place you need to go?
A different voice? And if we can cultivate those three places,
I think our daily level, we are able to hold more,
and be with more, be with ourselves, and be with
others more. That's such valuable and pactful advice for the many, many,
(13:38):
many many people who are out there listening, who are
at home with young kids, at home, with grown kids
at home, with elderly parents at home, in difficult situations,
difficult marriages, difficult family relationships, all sorts of things. I
find myself thinking so often about all the people for
(14:00):
whom this is not just about staying home, but about
staying home and really trying circumstances. And you know, it
strikes me what you said about, you know, the centering yourself.
Many many times a day I feel like that's something
I want to underscore because I think sometimes people think, well,
I've I meditated in the morning, or I've done this,
(14:22):
I'm good to go. And you know I've I've said
to my son Jacob since he was small, you can
always start your day over again. You can always start
It can be the minute before you go to sleep
at night and you can still be starting your day
over again. And and that's something I think that we all,
with our nervous system so shot and are you know,
(14:42):
just the difficulty of navigating this kind of unimaginable time,
we have to remember that we can do that again
and again and again. As you know, I love it
so much. Yeah, I love that like the you know
all in all of our traditions. But I know in
my own tradition, in the tradition, there was once a wedding.
You know Rob Nah, he's a great custodic rebby and
(15:04):
he used to say to his his students, you can
start over a thousand times a day, start again, start again.
And I think that what you just said is so beautiful.
It's true, like no matter how bad it's been, and
no matter how difficult it is, start from scratch. Pause,
Take a deep breath, center yourself and come from a
place of compassion and slow things down right. The nervous
(15:25):
system that's on fire, it wants to go fast, fast, fast,
and it's you know, slow it down. Even in your home,
like you know, we think everything has come to a crawl,
but you can be in your home and running from
one thing to another that distracts you, um and then
just get rebbed up and and start, you know, start
slowing down from that place and check in and then
start again. I love that. I love that. Well, this
(15:47):
is This is such a beautiful and such a useful
and such a true conversation. David. I'm so grateful to you,
and I mean in a in a in a personal way,
and in a on behalf of everybody who's listening to
the conversation today. Thank you, Danny Well, Thank you for
your work and everything you're helping out in the world
you do. Thank you all right, be well, thanks for
(16:16):
listening to the way we live now. Tell us the
way you're living now. We want to hear call us on.
You might want to get a pen for this nine
O nine one three eight that's nine O nine seven
one eight nine nine five and record your story and
we might just use it on the pod. Also, you
(16:36):
can join our Facebook group at facebook dot com slash
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Danny Ryder. The Way We Live Now is a production
of I Heart Radio. It's produced by a lowebrol Anti.
Bethan Macaluso is executive producer. Special thanks to Tristan McNeil
(17:00):
and Tyler Klang. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is the way we live now.
Today is day forty three since we've been social distancing,
staying at home if we can, and day seven of
this podcast. I think many of us are feeling lonely, frightened.
I'll speak for myself. There are times when I feel
lonely and frightened. What we're living through now may set
(00:28):
off memories or feelings about other difficult times. Who do
we turn to when the whole world is suffering? My
guest today is one of this country's most beloved and
respected spiritual leaders, Rabbi David Anger. David, thank you so
much for joining me on the Way we Live now.
(00:52):
I keep thinking about the way that we can't visit
one another, and as I was getting ready to call you,
my mind was pulled back to a couple of visits
that you and I had last summer when my husband
Michael was very sick with cancer. And I remember walking
through Central Park from the hospital to your apartment, all
(01:13):
the way across Manhattan, and we visited and it was
such a comfort. Would you invite us all into your
home now for a virtual visit? Where are you sitting,
what are you looking at what's going on with you.
It's so funny. As I was deciding we're gonna sit
(01:34):
for this call last minutes, I naturally gravitated back towards
the place that you and I had sat together, which
is in the corner of our living room in the
upper west side of Manhattan. It's kind of there are
windows inter facing the Hudson River and this the general expanses.
We're on the top floor of our building, so we
can see all the way down the West Side Highway
(01:57):
now and see the what did you really very busy
highway that is kind of you know, one or two
cars at a time, and in Senior Jersey off in
the distance, and I can see a lot of clouds.
So I'm looking at a bird now in flight. It's
rather quiet now for the moment. My youngest son, or
who was almost four, sleeping in the baby carriage, and
(02:19):
my other two sons are with my wife, so we're
at a relatively quiet time. Now we're in abrah home,
and so we want to welcome you and everyone else.
It was walked from whoever wherever you've walked from, so
to speak, to be with us. How is it to
be a spiritual leader. During this time, I've thought so
(02:40):
much about that question and what it must feel like.
And I imagine that you are surrounded by your congregants
and people who are questioning this moment and how it
can possibly have come to pass. Our community, now, thank god,
over the last fourteen years, has grown and we have,
you know, one of our thousand members in this community,
(03:02):
and then beyond it, places that I've taught of the
last decade and a half, and no shortage of people
that I feel are part of my inner circle or
my I guess, my inner community as well as my
physical community. So I'm getting questions from everywhere, and I
think the first thing that appears to a spiritual leader,
let's say, in my position, a lot of different kinds
of spiritual leaders, but in my particular position very much
(03:27):
what you just said, that the sense of a pastoral presence,
in the importance to to try to frame for people
what's happening, as well as meet them where they are
and offer support. You know, obviously it's a very challenging time.
It's an understatement, and the general sense for me is
how do I how do I support people at this
moment without giving simplistic and overly I guess probably Anish
(03:50):
spiritual advice. I think that the first, the first rule
of our spiritual vocation, of our calling, is to be
to be with, but notwithstanding the limits on what being
with means right now, but being with means both being
with them in presence, but also being with them in
sometimes to spare and hopelessness and a sense of futility
(04:12):
and a sense of a major sense of anxiety around
what's what's coming around the corner. And I think often
when people think of religion or spirituality, to think of answers.
But I think that more often than not, great spiritual
teachers and great spiritual devotees, people who are really on
the path, as it were, we learned, I think to
be with questions, to be with uncertainties, to do with
(04:34):
not knowing in a way that is not always very comfortable,
And certainly now more than you know, I can't imactionally
a better time, you know, in this moment to think
of how much we don't know, and how much the
wrong kinds of answers make more suffering than even the
questions themselves. And so I trying to do with the
(04:55):
questions in a way to be with the people where
they are, and at the same time balanced that with
what of times and you know, a real deep sense
of hope and deep sense of we're going to make
it through this together. And so I think that's really
what the challenge here has had to balance both naming
was true in the moment and at the same time
holding out a vision for what might yet come when
(05:15):
people are really really freaking out about about that, like
you know, what's what's next? M hm. You know. It's
reminding me of this moment probably about ten years ago,
where I was doing an event with Rabbi Laura Geller
in Los Angeles and it was at her congregation and
she and I were on stage along with Sylvia Borstein,
(05:37):
and there was this moment that Rabbi Geller was speaking,
and so I was looking out at the audience and
listening to her, and she said, the God of our
childhoods fails us m And I remember it struck me
so hard because I was looking out at her congregance
and what I saw on their faces was relief, you know,
(06:00):
relief that their rabbi would say such a thing. What
you just said just reminded me of that so much.
Because the living in the questions and the being. You know,
it's bringing me right back to sitting on that sofa
with you. You didn't tell me everything was going to
be okay. You didn't have that download, you didn't have
that information. You know, you didn't have a crystal ball.
(06:21):
But you you held my fear and anxiety and sorrow
and grief in this space. And you know, one of
the things that's been striking me lately is that never before,
certainly not in my lifetime or in in in memory,
have we all been in this together. M hm. There's
(06:42):
no one in the world who's not in this right.
Can you hear that siren? I don't know if that's
being picked up siren and sirens don't stop, you know, Yeah,
I've heard that from all of the people that I
talked to in the city. Is that that's the sound? Now?
You know, there's no under the usual honking and none
of the usual usual bustle, but just these sounds of
(07:04):
these lonely sirens. Yeah. And then and then there's this
other siren that goes out at seven o'clock every night
here in the city, the siren of people leaning out
of their windows each and every night here in the
city and around I think in all the boroughs, there's
a to become the custom here. Then the custom is
that at seven o'clock there's a there's a cheer that
(07:26):
rises up for all of the health workers and others
who are on the front lines. And and it it's
pretty remarkable actually to hear both of those, the absolute
sense of the abyss of how this is reaching into
every corner and every socio economic and neighborhood and you
name it. Everyone is being touched in some way with
(07:46):
the first siren. And there's also this equal force that
rises up that is equally universal, equally I mean, it's
not just New York, right, just you know, it's expression
is New York. But it's this power of the people
to say we are we can meet this fear with
the power of our love. The fear is real, and
so is the love. And I think that you know, again,
I'm very as you know, and you're you're the same
(08:08):
way with this, Like we we never try to make
lemonade too soon, right, you have to be really careful
about about the ways that we're learning lessons, you know,
especially in the midst of it. But one of the
things that certainly is happening, and it's not happening quote
unquote because but it's happening in spite of all the
all the ways that people are still you still still
you see kind of the ego and people grasping for
(08:32):
their saying in countries saying me first. But that's not
the predominant voice here. The predominant voice is a global
recognition that we are all in this together, and that
as we rise, we all rise, and as we fall,
we all fall, and that that that powerful spiritual message
is something that that has long been needed and been
(08:55):
and been you know, been spoken to. But at this
moment we're seeing it across the globe, across this the
way that the global issue are of an environmental crisis. Also,
the climate crisis was was also a part of what
we were trying to have everybody recognized. But here, in
a way, this is striking a much more immediate accord
with people's recognition that we are all right. No one
(09:17):
is immune to this, but at the same time, we
are all globally connected to the right responding in that way.
That's pretty remarkable. It really is what are your own
practices that you can turn to in a moment like this,
how are you taking care of yourself when you're also
(09:38):
holding space for so many other people. So I think
that the first rule for me that I'd like to
you know, tell your listeners, and I remind myself of
this and others every day, is that the notion of
that that oxygen masks metaphor. You know that before you
put the oxygen mask on the child or the one
next to you, you have to put your own oxygen
mask on first and hold true, you know, whether it's
(10:01):
in parenting or in you know, relationships. The most important
thing that we can do is self regulated at this moment,
and by that I mean exactly what you're asking. The
practice is that brings us back to the capacity to
do with ourselves, where is our fears, with our strengths,
with whatever this moment is is bringing forth. So for me,
(10:21):
it's meditation, it's silence, um, it's deep breathing right, standing
on my feet and breathing into my body from head
to toe and allowing myself to fully exhale our nervous
system right. And the practices of our spiritual traditions are
trying to in some way regulate our our our nervous system,
even as fear right most to the body, even as
(10:43):
anger or despair or whatever it might be, whatever fielding
comes over us. So the first thing I do is
I try to center myself many many times a day,
through breath, through prayer, through silence, and meditation. That's number one.
Number two is connection, right, connection through speaking to friends
(11:06):
and partners and you know, other human beings. Even if
we can't be with them physically, we can we can
corregulate with them. Part of what we do is when
we share with our friends and we reach out, is
that we help ourselves corregulate. Sometimes that happens through social media.
Often it doesn't because social media can actually exacerbate some
of our of our of our fearful places. But social
(11:29):
media can be useful, and so you can just picking
up a phone and calling somebody and connecting with them
and saying I'm really just needing to connect. So those
are two like core core pieces of of this. And
the third piece is is that I tell people. And
this is, by the way, a lot of this work
comes from a parenting coach name Laura Markham. I can't
(11:49):
I can't suggest Laura Markham enough. Her website. Ah parenting
is remarkable and some of her and I always tell
people the deepest era that I teach in the world,
I learned from my kids, and I learned about being
a parent and how we connect with our children, because ostensibly,
as we grow into adults and we're also still taking
care of children, they happen to be internal to us.
And uh and the way that we parents are external
(12:11):
children if you have them, or grandchildren or whoever it is,
is also the way that we relate to the inner
chrials or the place in us, the levels of our
inness in us that sometimes drop in and out of
being an adult. Right. And so the third piece of
this work of self regulated and then connect is to
to coach, not coerced or control. And I really really
(12:33):
take that to heart and every day that um, when
I when I speak to myself for my kids, that's
controlling them or cursing them. Right. It seems like it
works in the short term, but it doesn't in the
long term. And so coaching ourselves means adopting the voice
and speaking to ourselves a place of compassion and speaking
to others from a place of support. Right. So something
(12:57):
along the lines of how do we coach ourselves to
the day to get through the day. How might we
find a voice that will be the voice of the
best coach that we ever had, the best teacher that
we ever had, that wouldn't be full of controlling or coercion.
But more, how can I support you? How can I
help you? How can I hold this with you? How
(13:17):
can I get you to the place you need to go?
A different voice? And if we can cultivate those three places,
I think our daily level, we are able to hold more,
and be with more, be with ourselves, and be with
others more. That's such valuable and pactful advice for the many, many,
(13:38):
many many people who are out there listening, who are
at home with young kids, at home, with grown kids
at home, with elderly parents at home, in difficult situations,
difficult marriages, difficult family relationships, all sorts of things. I
find myself thinking so often about all the people for
(14:00):
whom this is not just about staying home, but about
staying home and really trying circumstances. And you know, it
strikes me what you said about, you know, the centering yourself.
Many many times a day I feel like that's something
I want to underscore because I think sometimes people think, well,
I've I meditated in the morning, or I've done this,
(14:22):
I'm good to go. And you know I've I've said
to my son Jacob since he was small, you can
always start your day over again. You can always start
It can be the minute before you go to sleep
at night and you can still be starting your day
over again. And and that's something I think that we all,
with our nervous system so shot and are you know,
(14:42):
just the difficulty of navigating this kind of unimaginable time,
we have to remember that we can do that again
and again and again. As you know, I love it
so much. Yeah, I love that like the you know
all in all of our traditions. But I know in
my own tradition, in the tradition, there was once a wedding.
You know Rob Nah, he's a great custodic rebby and
(15:04):
he used to say to his his students, you can
start over a thousand times a day, start again, start again.
And I think that what you just said is so beautiful.
It's true, like no matter how bad it's been, and
no matter how difficult it is, start from scratch. Pause,
Take a deep breath, center yourself and come from a
place of compassion and slow things down right. The nervous
(15:25):
system that's on fire, it wants to go fast, fast, fast,
and it's you know, slow it down. Even in your home,
like you know, we think everything has come to a crawl,
but you can be in your home and running from
one thing to another that distracts you, um and then
just get rebbed up and and start, you know, start
slowing down from that place and check in and then
start again. I love that. I love that. Well, this
(15:47):
is This is such a beautiful and such a useful
and such a true conversation. David. I'm so grateful to you,
and I mean in a in a in a personal way,
and in a on behalf of everybody who's listening to
the conversation today. Thank you, Danny Well, Thank you for
your work and everything you're helping out in the world
you do. Thank you all right, be well, thanks for
(16:16):
listening to the way we live now. Tell us the
way you're living now. We want to hear call us on.
You might want to get a pen for this nine
O nine one three eight that's nine O nine seven
one eight nine nine five and record your story and
we might just use it on the pod. Also, you
(16:36):
can join our Facebook group at facebook dot com slash
groups slash the Way We Live Now Pod. We are
creating a community here and we would love for you
to join us. You can find me on Instagram at
Danny Ryder. The Way We Live Now is a production
of I Heart Radio. It's produced by a lowebrol Anti.
Bethan Macaluso is executive producer. Special thanks to Tristan McNeil
(17:00):
and Tyler Klang. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
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