June 10, 2020 • 19 mins
An author and anti-racism activist hopes the commitment to change persists once everyone heads back to their workplaces, schools, and houses of worship.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
I'm Danny Shapiro and this is the Way we live now.
Today is day ninety two since Fri Tata's became the
new sour Dough, and a forty two of this podcast.
My guest today is writer and producer Austin Channing Brown,
whose first book I'm Still Here, Black Dignity in a
World Made for Whiteness, has taken her across the country,
(00:29):
speaking at universities in churches to huge audiences. Her mission
addressing head on the systemic ways our world was built
for whiteness. Of course, all that travel was curtailed by
the pandemic, and now her words are more urgent than ever. Austin,
(00:52):
thanks so much for joining me to talk about the
way we live now. Oh right, so greed to be here.
So this is a show that began as a way
to connect, to gather, to get a window into each
other's lives during this time, a time which continues to
evolve and evolve. I always begin by asking my guests
(01:14):
to describe your surroundings. Let us see you. Where are
you right now? Where are you sitting? What are you
looking at? I am in my apartment in Metro Detroit.
I am sitting on my couch in the living room.
My television is on, but it's not turned to anything.
(01:34):
So it's just doing like the growing very brain picture
over and over again, and surrounded by sandwich little movies
and billion toys because I have a toddler. Have you
been sort of sequestered with your toddler since the beginning
of COVID? Oh yeah, yeah, well yes, today it is
(01:57):
first day they care about for the last ish weeks
or so, he had been home, so his plays are
still all over the place. That your book came out, right, yes, um,
and it was very well received and relevant then. But
(02:18):
now wow, like here here we are, and I'm wondering
what the last you know, weeks have been like for you. Yeah,
I wrote, I'm still here on the tail end of
our Black Lives Matter revolving around for a difference. And
so now for the book to have been out for
(02:38):
two years, I've been for people to still be discovering
it now in a second iteration of Black Lives Matters
protests is a little surreal, but not entirely unpredictable and
grateful because when I wrote the book, I wanted it
to be able to survive beyond its current moment, and
(03:01):
so I'm glad that it seems to have done that.
The difficulty of being someone who talks about anti racism
for a living is that I become most popular when
the country is in crisis, and there is something very
very hard and awkward and brutal about that. And so
(03:23):
I'm trying really hard to just be proud of my
book and to be glad that um it is serving
as a touch point on people's journey towards anti racism.
That's so interesting and that makes so much sense. It's
it's got to feel both like a source of pride
and really difficult that here we are, and not surprising either,
(03:45):
right right, It's it's all of fact. It is like
it is wrapped up in humanity and all the complications
that humanity brings with it. M So you posted on
Instagram this week a graphic with the quote you have
a duty to change what you have the power to change,
and you captioned it with it seems to me at
(04:06):
some point symbolic gestures from those who have the power
to enact real anti racist changes are just another form
of violence. I want to ask you, and sorry to
quote an Instagram post, but that's why we speak the truth,
especially these days, in that form. That's right. What does
real ally ship look like at this moment in time? Wow?
(04:29):
So when I wrote that post, I really had in
mind the individual. So you know, we can think about
anti racism on two different planes, one plane being sort
of an interpersonal level and the other being an organizational level.
I recently had organization a company who sent me an
email and in the email asked if I could help
(04:53):
them right a statement regarding everything that's happened, sort of
their black lives Matters statements. And I sat on it
for a couple of days because I wasn't sure how
to respond, how to how do I write your statement
for you? Right? And then I realized I don't want
to read your statement, whether I write it or not.
(05:14):
I don't want your statement. I don't want to read
your statement. I don't care about your statement. What I
really care about is whether or not you as a
company are trying to be anti racist? Are you hiring
people of color? Are you paying people's color equally? I
want to know are you being anti racist? I'm not
(05:35):
really interested in this statement. How do you say irony?
I mean, it's so backwards thinking in every way. It's
hard to imagine, but it's not hard to imagine because
it's not right, because that is what so many people
default you, right, So the principle doesn't diversify the curriculum.
The principle says, you know, gathers everyone in an auditorium
(05:58):
and says about how much diverse city means personally to
him or hard you know what I means, And the
corporate supervisor sends out an email. But when a person
of color goes to HR and says, we have a
real problem here, the supervisor doesn't back them up. And
when politicians right make these great speeches, but I don't
(06:20):
see any new policy legislation in happening. I think we
we who are at least holding this value for ourselves right,
that if you want to claim the value, then you
must be aware of the ways in which you hold
power and use that power. As opposed to the peasantry
(06:44):
of proclaiming a commitment to diversity, to inclusion, two people
of color, to black lives matter, that is not actually
being inactive, right, And we've been here countless time before.
One of the things I've been really wondering about our
you know, why are so many white people, especially liberal
(07:08):
progressive white people or you know, who define themselves that way.
Why are they we you know, only now starting to
take stock of the role that we've played in upholding
white supremacy, I mean, and are we right? One thing
(07:30):
that I've thought about a lot is that we are
many of us still in a kind of quarantine ish
situation or a sheltering at home situation. So our lives
are for many of us slower. Our calendars are are
filled with plans, uh, And we're not getting dressed in
(07:53):
leaving home and going to jobs and getting on planes
and trying you know, we're not in the usual flow
of business. And I'm wondering whether that's going to have
any any impact on genuine self reflection. Yeah, I'm not sure, Honestly,
I'm not sure. On the one hand, I want to
(08:16):
believe that that slowness and that lack of distraction means
that people are going to access more resources and read
more books and attends more virtual events and have more
conversations with their family members. You know, that they're immediately
surrounded by um and maybe maybe all of that knowledge
(08:40):
and all of those stories will drop deeper than they
usually do. But I think only time will tell whether
or not that will translate into the courage to be
anti racist in public. And I think there are a
lot of people of color who would describe themselves as
(09:02):
cautiously optimistic, like like, there does seem to be something
differlace this time around. There does seem to be a
level of commitment and courage or at the very least
curiosity on the part of white people that I don't
think we've seen with other Black Lives Matter protests. And
(09:24):
yet it's a lot to ask that we would be
trusting that all of these folks who are curious will
have a commitment once there is more public risks attached.
What did you right back to that corporation who asked
you to draft their anti racist statements for them, I
(09:49):
told them, no, not do that. But I asked them
if they it was a wellness company, and I asked
them if they would consider allowing activists and organizers and
you know, those who are tired and who are on
the ground, if they would supply free smile packages. Do
(10:14):
you know what I mean? Like, Sony, show me if
you are committed to the actual people on the ground,
consider being creative with their resources with the mission of
their company, and apply that to black women, to women
of color, to activists, to organizers, and show that they
(10:37):
believe black lives matter as opposed to just writing a statement.
I love that I did not get a response. You
did not get a response. I did not get a
response back. Maybe they're in the process of sending you
gift certificates. Another question I have for you is what
role does your face play in your activism? You were
(11:00):
raised in a religious home. What lessons has religion taught you?
You know? I was both raised in a religious home
and attended private Christians so my entire world rooted in Christianity.
And now as an adult, I feel like I never
(11:21):
say this very well, but racial justice is a pursuit
I believe in that I hope I would do whether
I was Christian or not. I hope, and my faith
therefore informs the way I talk about racial justice. It
informs um how I present about racial justice is it
(11:46):
really is core in many ways to who I am,
both as a writer and just as a person. You know,
And yet I have no desire, no inclination, dwonging to
become evangelical about my face as I pursue racial justice.
(12:08):
So when I show up somewhere, even though I hold
my face close to me, if my words don't translate
to someone who is not a Christian, that I feel
like I have failed. Mhm. You know. I I don't
want anyone who who attends an event or comes to
(12:29):
a workshop or hears me on this podcast, you know,
just feel like I have no idea what she's talking about.
Because it's clear she's only talking to Christians. That would
make me really, really sad. And so I carry it
with me. I am informed by it, but it is
it is in no way sort of an evangelical tool
(12:51):
that there's you know, like, oh, I wonder if I
could make you anti racist or a Christian. Either way
I win, you know, But it's that feels that feels gross,
honest gate and it feels disrespectful to other people safe
and their traditions and their heritage and their background. And
it feels weird to say, I want all of that
(13:13):
about me to matter to you, but if you have that,
it doesn't matter to me. Like that just feels that
feels kicky. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And also
that's a divisive way of walking through the world, and
what your work is the opposite of that, exactly, exactly,
like your two dreams do not belong together. So my
(13:36):
last question for you is, how are you taking care
of yourself right now? How are you keeping yourself fed
emotionally and spiritually during this time which I also imagine
is on top of all of the feelings and all
of the weight of what's happening and all of you know,
potentially the cautious optimism has got to be this incredibly intense, busy,
(14:00):
you know wave coming over you as well. It has
been quite overwhelming. And my body keeps changing, right, so
the so the first wave of overwhelming was really coated
right and being in a pandemic and and figuring out
everything related to being quarantined, you know. And then here
we are, at least in Michigan, we were still sheltered
(14:23):
in place, and now there's a new national crisis happening
that happens to me in my real house. Um, and
so my body was changing. So at first I was
sleeping all the time, and then with this newer crisis,
I can't find sleep to save my life. I keep
looking for it under my pillow under my bed? Is
(14:44):
it in the closet? I just don't know where I went, Danny,
it's a sleep sane. There's a beard. Same thing with
my appetite. Before I was eating pretty regularly, and now
I spend most of my days convincing myself to eat
because I feel just slightly nauseous, not like nauseous enough
to like race to the background, but enough to just
(15:06):
not want to eat. And so a lot of my
self care has just been giving my body opportunities to
do things that it's telling me it doesn't really want
to do, just because like, no, you really should do this,
Like I no, I know you don't want to sleep,
but we're gonna go get in the bed anyway. And
I know you don't want to eat, but I'm gonna
(15:28):
toast this big gol just in case, you know. So
it's it's really been a battle for the normal, like
a normal baseline level of both care. But I will
say it's the one place that I've had major success
is my skincare routine. Major success, Danny, It's been amazing.
(15:50):
I have been using my cleansers and my exfoliance. I
got a jade roller and I keep it in a refrigerator,
and when I put that little Jay Brouller on my face,
oh my goodness, so much pleasure and like the feeling
of actually, I am in this moment doing something nice
(16:12):
for myself. Right The smells, the touch, the water, the
gel and the cleanser and the it's also pretty and
it smells like it is just a purely leasurable experience
that doesn't feel like a chore. It just doesn't feel
like a chore right now. And so it is the
(16:35):
one thing that I do almost every night. This is
way too dramatic, but it doesn't feel like I'm beating
my body into submission, like like you will sleep, you
will eat, you know. It feels like the one area
where I just get to be full of joy and
(16:57):
quiet and candles and um, yeah, it's it's it's my
my one little oasis every day. It's lovely and it's
a ritual. And also one thing that you said really
about is like you are you're listening to your body,
You're noticing your body. I think it's often for people
(17:18):
who are you when we're in this really deeply stressed
and disturbing an intense time, um overwhelmed, it's easy to
actually just forget that we have bodies at all. It's sure,
it's the sure. Well, this has been a really lovely conversation,
and I'm so thankful to you for taking the time
(17:40):
out of what's got to be a complete insane amount
of zooming and phoning and everything else that you're doing
now as you go into the you know, the second
wave of of your remarkable book. So, Austin, thanks, well,
I really appreciate the opportunity that comes that with you.
All right, be well, thank you, Okay, take care. Thanks
(18:09):
for listening to the Way We Live Now. Tell us
the way you're living now. We want to hear call
us on. You might want to get a pen for
this nine O nine, that's nine O nine eight nine
nine and record your story and we might just use
it on the pod. Also, you can join our Facebook
(18:31):
group at facebook dot com slash groups slash the Way
We Live Now Pod. We are creating a community here
and we would love for you to join us. You
can find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. The Way
We Live Now is a production of I Heart Radio.
It's produced by a lowebrol Aante Bethan Macaluso, is executive producer.
(18:51):
Special thanks to Tristan McNeil and Tyler Klang. For more
podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Danny Shapiro and this is the Way we live now.
Today is day ninety two since Fri Tata's became the
new sour Dough, and a forty two of this podcast.
My guest today is writer and producer Austin Channing Brown,
whose first book I'm Still Here, Black Dignity in a
World Made for Whiteness, has taken her across the country,
(00:29):
speaking at universities in churches to huge audiences. Her mission
addressing head on the systemic ways our world was built
for whiteness. Of course, all that travel was curtailed by
the pandemic, and now her words are more urgent than ever. Austin,
(00:52):
thanks so much for joining me to talk about the
way we live now. Oh right, so greed to be here.
So this is a show that began as a way
to connect, to gather, to get a window into each
other's lives during this time, a time which continues to
evolve and evolve. I always begin by asking my guests
(01:14):
to describe your surroundings. Let us see you. Where are
you right now? Where are you sitting? What are you
looking at? I am in my apartment in Metro Detroit.
I am sitting on my couch in the living room.
My television is on, but it's not turned to anything.
(01:34):
So it's just doing like the growing very brain picture
over and over again, and surrounded by sandwich little movies
and billion toys because I have a toddler. Have you
been sort of sequestered with your toddler since the beginning
of COVID? Oh yeah, yeah, well yes, today it is
(01:57):
first day they care about for the last ish weeks
or so, he had been home, so his plays are
still all over the place. That your book came out, right, yes, um,
and it was very well received and relevant then. But
(02:18):
now wow, like here here we are, and I'm wondering
what the last you know, weeks have been like for you. Yeah,
I wrote, I'm still here on the tail end of
our Black Lives Matter revolving around for a difference. And
so now for the book to have been out for
(02:38):
two years, I've been for people to still be discovering
it now in a second iteration of Black Lives Matters
protests is a little surreal, but not entirely unpredictable and
grateful because when I wrote the book, I wanted it
to be able to survive beyond its current moment, and
(03:01):
so I'm glad that it seems to have done that.
The difficulty of being someone who talks about anti racism
for a living is that I become most popular when
the country is in crisis, and there is something very
very hard and awkward and brutal about that. And so
(03:23):
I'm trying really hard to just be proud of my
book and to be glad that um it is serving
as a touch point on people's journey towards anti racism.
That's so interesting and that makes so much sense. It's
it's got to feel both like a source of pride
and really difficult that here we are, and not surprising either,
(03:45):
right right, It's it's all of fact. It is like
it is wrapped up in humanity and all the complications
that humanity brings with it. M So you posted on
Instagram this week a graphic with the quote you have
a duty to change what you have the power to change,
and you captioned it with it seems to me at
(04:06):
some point symbolic gestures from those who have the power
to enact real anti racist changes are just another form
of violence. I want to ask you, and sorry to
quote an Instagram post, but that's why we speak the truth,
especially these days, in that form. That's right. What does
real ally ship look like at this moment in time? Wow?
(04:29):
So when I wrote that post, I really had in
mind the individual. So you know, we can think about
anti racism on two different planes, one plane being sort
of an interpersonal level and the other being an organizational level.
I recently had organization a company who sent me an
email and in the email asked if I could help
(04:53):
them right a statement regarding everything that's happened, sort of
their black lives Matters statements. And I sat on it
for a couple of days because I wasn't sure how
to respond, how to how do I write your statement
for you? Right? And then I realized I don't want
to read your statement, whether I write it or not.
(05:14):
I don't want your statement. I don't want to read
your statement. I don't care about your statement. What I
really care about is whether or not you as a
company are trying to be anti racist? Are you hiring
people of color? Are you paying people's color equally? I
want to know are you being anti racist? I'm not
(05:35):
really interested in this statement. How do you say irony?
I mean, it's so backwards thinking in every way. It's
hard to imagine, but it's not hard to imagine because
it's not right, because that is what so many people
default you, right, So the principle doesn't diversify the curriculum.
The principle says, you know, gathers everyone in an auditorium
(05:58):
and says about how much diverse city means personally to
him or hard you know what I means, And the
corporate supervisor sends out an email. But when a person
of color goes to HR and says, we have a
real problem here, the supervisor doesn't back them up. And
when politicians right make these great speeches, but I don't
(06:20):
see any new policy legislation in happening. I think we
we who are at least holding this value for ourselves right,
that if you want to claim the value, then you
must be aware of the ways in which you hold
power and use that power. As opposed to the peasantry
(06:44):
of proclaiming a commitment to diversity, to inclusion, two people
of color, to black lives matter, that is not actually
being inactive, right, And we've been here countless time before.
One of the things I've been really wondering about our
you know, why are so many white people, especially liberal
(07:08):
progressive white people or you know, who define themselves that way.
Why are they we you know, only now starting to
take stock of the role that we've played in upholding
white supremacy, I mean, and are we right? One thing
(07:30):
that I've thought about a lot is that we are
many of us still in a kind of quarantine ish
situation or a sheltering at home situation. So our lives
are for many of us slower. Our calendars are are
filled with plans, uh, And we're not getting dressed in
(07:53):
leaving home and going to jobs and getting on planes
and trying you know, we're not in the usual flow
of business. And I'm wondering whether that's going to have
any any impact on genuine self reflection. Yeah, I'm not sure, Honestly,
I'm not sure. On the one hand, I want to
(08:16):
believe that that slowness and that lack of distraction means
that people are going to access more resources and read
more books and attends more virtual events and have more
conversations with their family members. You know, that they're immediately
surrounded by um and maybe maybe all of that knowledge
(08:40):
and all of those stories will drop deeper than they
usually do. But I think only time will tell whether
or not that will translate into the courage to be
anti racist in public. And I think there are a
lot of people of color who would describe themselves as
(09:02):
cautiously optimistic, like like, there does seem to be something
differlace this time around. There does seem to be a
level of commitment and courage or at the very least
curiosity on the part of white people that I don't
think we've seen with other Black Lives Matter protests. And
(09:24):
yet it's a lot to ask that we would be
trusting that all of these folks who are curious will
have a commitment once there is more public risks attached.
What did you right back to that corporation who asked
you to draft their anti racist statements for them, I
(09:49):
told them, no, not do that. But I asked them
if they it was a wellness company, and I asked
them if they would consider allowing activists and organizers and
you know, those who are tired and who are on
the ground, if they would supply free smile packages. Do
(10:14):
you know what I mean? Like, Sony, show me if
you are committed to the actual people on the ground,
consider being creative with their resources with the mission of
their company, and apply that to black women, to women
of color, to activists, to organizers, and show that they
(10:37):
believe black lives matter as opposed to just writing a statement.
I love that I did not get a response. You
did not get a response. I did not get a
response back. Maybe they're in the process of sending you
gift certificates. Another question I have for you is what
role does your face play in your activism? You were
(11:00):
raised in a religious home. What lessons has religion taught you?
You know? I was both raised in a religious home
and attended private Christians so my entire world rooted in Christianity.
And now as an adult, I feel like I never
(11:21):
say this very well, but racial justice is a pursuit
I believe in that I hope I would do whether
I was Christian or not. I hope, and my faith
therefore informs the way I talk about racial justice. It
informs um how I present about racial justice is it
(11:46):
really is core in many ways to who I am,
both as a writer and just as a person. You know,
And yet I have no desire, no inclination, dwonging to
become evangelical about my face as I pursue racial justice.
(12:08):
So when I show up somewhere, even though I hold
my face close to me, if my words don't translate
to someone who is not a Christian, that I feel
like I have failed. Mhm. You know. I I don't
want anyone who who attends an event or comes to
(12:29):
a workshop or hears me on this podcast, you know,
just feel like I have no idea what she's talking about.
Because it's clear she's only talking to Christians. That would
make me really, really sad. And so I carry it
with me. I am informed by it, but it is
it is in no way sort of an evangelical tool
(12:51):
that there's you know, like, oh, I wonder if I
could make you anti racist or a Christian. Either way
I win, you know, But it's that feels that feels gross,
honest gate and it feels disrespectful to other people safe
and their traditions and their heritage and their background. And
it feels weird to say, I want all of that
(13:13):
about me to matter to you, but if you have that,
it doesn't matter to me. Like that just feels that
feels kicky. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And also
that's a divisive way of walking through the world, and
what your work is the opposite of that, exactly, exactly,
like your two dreams do not belong together. So my
(13:36):
last question for you is, how are you taking care
of yourself right now? How are you keeping yourself fed
emotionally and spiritually during this time which I also imagine
is on top of all of the feelings and all
of the weight of what's happening and all of you know,
potentially the cautious optimism has got to be this incredibly intense, busy,
(14:00):
you know wave coming over you as well. It has
been quite overwhelming. And my body keeps changing, right, so
the so the first wave of overwhelming was really coated
right and being in a pandemic and and figuring out
everything related to being quarantined, you know. And then here
we are, at least in Michigan, we were still sheltered
(14:23):
in place, and now there's a new national crisis happening
that happens to me in my real house. Um, and
so my body was changing. So at first I was
sleeping all the time, and then with this newer crisis,
I can't find sleep to save my life. I keep
looking for it under my pillow under my bed? Is
(14:44):
it in the closet? I just don't know where I went, Danny,
it's a sleep sane. There's a beard. Same thing with
my appetite. Before I was eating pretty regularly, and now
I spend most of my days convincing myself to eat
because I feel just slightly nauseous, not like nauseous enough
to like race to the background, but enough to just
(15:06):
not want to eat. And so a lot of my
self care has just been giving my body opportunities to
do things that it's telling me it doesn't really want
to do, just because like, no, you really should do this,
Like I no, I know you don't want to sleep,
but we're gonna go get in the bed anyway. And
I know you don't want to eat, but I'm gonna
(15:28):
toast this big gol just in case, you know. So
it's it's really been a battle for the normal, like
a normal baseline level of both care. But I will
say it's the one place that I've had major success
is my skincare routine. Major success, Danny, It's been amazing.
(15:50):
I have been using my cleansers and my exfoliance. I
got a jade roller and I keep it in a refrigerator,
and when I put that little Jay Brouller on my face,
oh my goodness, so much pleasure and like the feeling
of actually, I am in this moment doing something nice
(16:12):
for myself. Right The smells, the touch, the water, the
gel and the cleanser and the it's also pretty and
it smells like it is just a purely leasurable experience
that doesn't feel like a chore. It just doesn't feel
like a chore right now. And so it is the
(16:35):
one thing that I do almost every night. This is
way too dramatic, but it doesn't feel like I'm beating
my body into submission, like like you will sleep, you
will eat, you know. It feels like the one area
where I just get to be full of joy and
(16:57):
quiet and candles and um, yeah, it's it's it's my
my one little oasis every day. It's lovely and it's
a ritual. And also one thing that you said really
about is like you are you're listening to your body,
You're noticing your body. I think it's often for people
(17:18):
who are you when we're in this really deeply stressed
and disturbing an intense time, um overwhelmed, it's easy to
actually just forget that we have bodies at all. It's sure,
it's the sure. Well, this has been a really lovely conversation,
and I'm so thankful to you for taking the time
(17:40):
out of what's got to be a complete insane amount
of zooming and phoning and everything else that you're doing
now as you go into the you know, the second
wave of of your remarkable book. So, Austin, thanks, well,
I really appreciate the opportunity that comes that with you.
All right, be well, thank you, Okay, take care. Thanks
(18:09):
for listening to the Way We Live Now. Tell us
the way you're living now. We want to hear call
us on. You might want to get a pen for
this nine O nine, that's nine O nine eight nine
nine and record your story and we might just use
it on the pod. Also, you can join our Facebook
(18:31):
group at facebook dot com slash groups slash the Way
We Live Now Pod. We are creating a community here
and we would love for you to join us. You
can find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. The Way
We Live Now is a production of I Heart Radio.
It's produced by a lowebrol Aante Bethan Macaluso, is executive producer.
(18:51):
Special thanks to Tristan McNeil and Tyler Klang. For more
podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.
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