June 25, 2020 • 18 mins
A psychotherapist and Buddhist teacher discusses the hard truths many of us are being forced to confront while our busy lives are on hold.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is the Way We Live Now.
Today is day on seven, since the question how are you?
Has often been met with an awkward pause, and day
fifty three of this podcast, My guest today is the
brilliant writer, Buddhist and psychiatrist Mark Epstein, author most recently
(00:28):
of Advice Not Given, a Guide to Getting Over Yourself.
I've been reading and loving Mark's work for many years,
and it's an honor to have him on the show. Mark,
thank you so much for joining me to talk about
the way we're living now. It's a pleasure. Danny. Please
(00:50):
describe your surroundings for us. Give us a snapshot of
where you are, what you're looking at as we're speaking.
I'll set it off against where where I used to
be for thirty three years or so. I'm a psychiatrist,
a therapist, a writer. Mostly what I do is is
see patients. Uh. And I had a basement office in
(01:13):
a loft building in Tribeca and in downtown Manhattan that
I've worked out of for the past, you know, thirty
three years or so. But now I'm I'm upstayed in
a in a house that we have in Woodstock, New York. Uh.
And I'm in the spare bedroom that I've converted into
(01:35):
a writing and speaking room. Uh. So there's a ceiling
fan and a sliding doors into flat roof house. So
I'm looking out at the at the trees and the sky.
So I have I have a real window that I'm
not used to, and and nature that's been encroaching for
(01:59):
the past uh three or four months into my consciousness.
That's so interesting. I I've had that same experience. I
live in the country, moved from the city eighteen years ago,
and this year I realized that I had never watched
spring actually happen in slow motion, even though I was here,
(02:20):
or often I wasn't here, I was traveling, but I
never had that experience of watching it day by day. Yeah. Yeah,
watching a day by day and at the same time,
time seems to have dissolved. So in my mind it's
still March. But you know, that's a very strange first strange. Then,
So did you move up to Woodstock because of the
(02:43):
pandemic and just getting out of the city. Yeah, I
mean basically we've been I'm married to a sculptor um
and she has her main studio up here, so up
until the virus, we were going back and forth. She
was spending more time up here and was doing all
my work in the city, and you know, we would
go back and forth every week. But when they when
(03:06):
the virus began, we just came up here and I
started doing all of my therapy work, you know, on
the on the telephone or on zoom, or on Skype
or on FaceTime or whatever, um, whatever anybody wanted. Had
you ever worked that way before? No, I always resisted it.
I I hardly ever people would ask me, you know,
(03:29):
if they could have to have sessions while they were
in California or traveling or whatever, and I always said no.
I I was very attached to face to face and
in person and to my little office. And but now
I've totally totally surrendered. Is there anything that you can
say is qualitatively different or that you're missing or is
(03:52):
it just really that we adapt. I haven't started with
anybody new, uh so I've only been working with people
who I already pretty well. And I've been um relieved
and sort of surprised at how seamless the the connections
(04:12):
have been. UM. So it's kind of freed me from
my from attachments. I didn't know I had to the
in person and the office. And you know you can
hear from how often I'm talking about that already, but
I'm not completely detalented. But but it's it's freed me
up some and which has been a good thing. And
(04:34):
I miss the I miss the the human body to
body with you know, psychotherapy space in between, but the
one on one in person, I missed that some. But
but I've been pretty happy with the way things have
been in terms of the therapy work. You live in
many ways at the intersection of Buddhism and um psychoanalysis, yeah, psychotherapy, psychotherapy,
(05:02):
and you've written about this, you know, you've you've written
about that. I know, I've loved reading you for many years,
and you've written about the trauma of everyday life. And
it just struck me when I was thinking of talking
with you that we're in a time now where it
seems our experience is being ratcheted up and people are
(05:25):
having all kinds of responses during the pandemic anxiety, fear, despair, confusion, apathy,
I mean, the end of the gamut um. Can you
speak about what you're seeing and experiencing and how you're
guiding people during this time. Sure, well, I wrote that book,
The Trauma of Everyday Life, you know, I don't know
(05:45):
seven eight years ago. What I found myself saying all
the time when I was talking about the book was
that if we're not suffering from post traumatic stress disorder,
we're suffering from pre traumatic stress disorder. Because, like the
Buddha said years ago, you know, trauma, although he didn't
have that word, he used the word duca, trauma runs
(06:09):
like an underground river through all of our lives, you know,
because the specter of old age and sickness and death
and separation from those we love. UM, that that's inevitable
for all of us at some point in life. UM.
So the strange thing about the virus about this time
(06:30):
is that, um, you know, some aspect of that has
been hitting everybody all at the same time. So that
that's you know, very very unusual. Hasn't happened in a
hundred years, you know. Um. But it's but but it's, um,
it's not out of this world, you know. It's it's
(06:50):
a it's a sort of extreme example of what awaits
us all anyway. So it's bringing up for for many
people it's bringing up past traumatic experiences that have not
been completely worked through. And for many other people, it's creating,
(07:10):
you know, like a kind of first taste of a
traumatic experience that people have to figure out how to
deal with. UH. And for for me, the you know,
my Buddhist background, because I was drawn to Buddhism, involved
with Buddhism before I became a therapist, before I knew
very much about Western therapy. Um. The Buddhist background that
(07:35):
I have has helped me some in in UH, adjusting, coping,
dealing with all these changes that we have to deal with. Mhmm.
I've heard somewhere, I think on another podcast you were
on that you were about to go on an annual retreat. Yeah,
(07:56):
right at the time, just as we were starting to understand. Yeah,
I've been trying to go on the silent mindfulness based
meditation retreats, you know, once a year since my kids
grew up. UM. And I was. I had my reservation,
and I had my coffee that I bought to bring
with me. And it's not you you know, you can
(08:20):
you can bring coffin and my my unscented soap. Uh.
You know, I was, I had all my supplies, and
I was getting ready to go right at the beginning
of March, and uh, and my wife was like, I
don't think you can go. And I was holding on
tight to going, and then clearly I couldn't go. And
(08:40):
then they closed the retreat center a couple of days
after I was supposed to be there. Um, but instead
of me being alone on retreat, it turned out that
everyone in the whole world had to be on retreat
at the same time. So, UM, I had to use
what I what I've learned over those many retreats to
kind of pace myself during during this time. Yeah, that's
(09:02):
something I really wanted to talk to you about. So
you know, you've referred to this time as an accidental
retreat for all of us, and and I actually think
that that's a really gentle and profound way of coming
to think about this time, you know, instead of forced
isolation or somehow punishment, or to think of it if
(09:25):
it's if it's a retreat, even if it's an accidental
retreat or one that you know none of us wanted
for all the reasons. You know that you know the
world is in a state of stuff is suffering. But
how might we be more purposeful and thoughtful as we're
navigating this terrain. Well, I think there's a couple of things.
(09:46):
You know, Um, my experience going on these retreats is
that whatever is kind of lurking in the shadows of
my psyche, there's an opportunity for that hidden material to
reveal self, either in my dreams or in the meditation itself,
in the in the thoughts that come or the memories
(10:08):
that come. Um, And I'm always surprised and kind of
taken aback and curious about what's what what's going to
come up or what does come up. But I think
something similar is happening for a lot of people, either
in their family lives, in their marriages, in their in
(10:29):
their domestic environments. That things that maybe we're being pushed
under the rug that there wasn't time to really deal
with or even to notice, given the the way time
is kind of paralyzed. Uh, there's opportunity for for all
(10:52):
this stuff that we might be ignoring in our regular
lives too, that we can actually pay attention to it.
So there's a there's a chance to come to terms
with stuff, to make peace with stuff, to to make
some internal changes that maybe need to be made um Anyway,
it's so interesting to me. I've been thinking so much
(11:12):
about it and wondering whether I'm making too much of
the confluence of events, you know, these two thunderclaps of
COVID nineteen and the death of George Floyd and the
outpouring that happened since then. I feel has something to
do with the fact that we're left alone with ourselves
(11:36):
now that there's no distraction. Yeah, and who knows what
else is gonna reveal itself. You know, I have an
an old friend of mine. People will think I'm strange
about this, but an old friend of mine is an astrologer,
and and she said, there's a you know, Saturn Pluto
conjunction happening started in February that's gonna last about two
(11:59):
years because Pluto, the furthest planet, moves so slowly. So
it's even from an astrological perspective. It's a time of
hidden things being turned up and exposed and having to
let go of what we've outgrown. It's like a reckoning
on top of a reckoning on top of a Yeah. Yeah,
(12:21):
so what is bringing you hope now? The possibility of
a vaccine that's which I think is far off. Unfortunately
from everything that I've been reading, trying to make use
of my medical school background, I don't have a lot
of hope for the near future. I think we're I
(12:43):
think we're in a period of a day and at
least in New York, but I doubt that that's going
to stick. I have faith in the good sense of
the American people that the election is going to bring change,
but I've been wrong before. I've been very touched by
(13:03):
how actually willing everyone they're the bulk of the people
in the country and in the world, how willing people
have been to sacrifice during this time for the benefit
of the greater of the greater good, you know. But
I don't have a lot of you know, I think
(13:24):
the forces of greed and hatred and ignorance are are
likely to be as strong as ever. That battle that's
been going ever since I was born. I think it's
going to continue. In closing, I'm just thinking about people
listening and the way in which, you know, we're all
(13:46):
isolated either by ourselves or with family or friends, and
there's this period that we're in right now, is we're
speaking where things are kind of opening up, and there
are a lot of mixed messages, you know, all over
the place, and I think so many people are longing
(14:07):
to go back to you know, use words like normal
or the new normal, or various sort of euphemisms for
like please, let's just have this be over. And of
course it's not going to be over anytime soon, as
you say, And and I just keep on thinking about plans.
And I watched as my entire you know, months of many, many,
(14:28):
many plans and travel and all sorts of things were
like instantly within a day, like your retreat sort of
stripped away, and my calendar went from very full to
completely blank. And the thought that I was having that
I guess would be sort of at the intersection of
of Buddhism and psychotherapy, is our plans are really always
just fantasies. Yeah, um, well you're you're saying a lot
(14:51):
of profans things there. But in my in my trauma book,
I I use this phrase that the rush to normal,
the tendency when UH dealing with the traumatic event is
to try to rush back to normal, you know, and
that that rush to normal doesn't allow for the processing
of the of the emotions of the reactions of the
(15:15):
responses to the traumatic event. It just pushes it down
and and that's what leads to what we call post
traumatic stress. You know, where the unworked through aspects of
whatever happened, it has nowhere to go except up through
your dreams and you know, out later in life to
to nag at you and make you anxious. So but
(15:35):
that's a real human tendency to try to get back
to the way things are supposed to be, to the
way things were. And what we learn in meditation, what
we learned from Buddhism, is that, you know, we never
know what the next moment is going to bring. We
really don't a lot of the time. The probability is
that we can almost know, you know, but uh, we
(15:59):
never really know. And now now we're really dwelling in
uncertainty now, you know, all we have our memories and
and this moment, and it's very uncertain what what tomorrow
is going to be. Let alone, you know, November, it's
possible to live much more in the moment, as you
(16:20):
were saying, experiencing the spring, you know, but but that
was so wonderful to see the spring unfold moment to moment,
day to day and we can live like that. And
right now, fortunately or unfortunately, we kind of have to
live like that, because the more we try to make
things the way they were, the more it's gonna rebel
(16:44):
against us and we will end up suffering more for that. No, absolutely,
And I think embracing there's there's a piece that can
be found at the center of that, embracing the uncertainty.
I guess that's what we're all needing to find. We
need to find it. Yeah, I called I called one
of my books going to Pieces without Falling Apart, Yeah,
(17:06):
which is sort of luck where where we're all at
right now, that's perfect if we're not falling apart at
least we have to let ourselves go to pieces that
that's sort of like letting all those plans and expectations
and so on. You know, we really do all have
to let that go. Mark, thank you so much for
taking a time to to talk to us today. And yeah,
(17:27):
it's just a gift. You're very welcome. Thanks for listening
to the way we live now. Tell us the way
you're living now. We want to hear call us on.
You might want to get a pen for this nine
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(17:49):
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at Danny Ryder. The Way We Live Now is a
(18:11):
production of iHeart Radio. It's produced by a Low Brolante.
Bethan Macaluso is executive producer. Special thanks to Tristan McNeil
and Tyler Klang. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is the Way We Live Now.
Today is day on seven, since the question how are you?
Has often been met with an awkward pause, and day
fifty three of this podcast, My guest today is the
brilliant writer, Buddhist and psychiatrist Mark Epstein, author most recently
(00:28):
of Advice Not Given, a Guide to Getting Over Yourself.
I've been reading and loving Mark's work for many years,
and it's an honor to have him on the show. Mark,
thank you so much for joining me to talk about
the way we're living now. It's a pleasure. Danny. Please
(00:50):
describe your surroundings for us. Give us a snapshot of
where you are, what you're looking at as we're speaking.
I'll set it off against where where I used to
be for thirty three years or so. I'm a psychiatrist,
a therapist, a writer. Mostly what I do is is
see patients. Uh. And I had a basement office in
(01:13):
a loft building in Tribeca and in downtown Manhattan that
I've worked out of for the past, you know, thirty
three years or so. But now I'm I'm upstayed in
a in a house that we have in Woodstock, New York. Uh.
And I'm in the spare bedroom that I've converted into
(01:35):
a writing and speaking room. Uh. So there's a ceiling
fan and a sliding doors into flat roof house. So
I'm looking out at the at the trees and the sky.
So I have I have a real window that I'm
not used to, and and nature that's been encroaching for
(01:59):
the past uh three or four months into my consciousness.
That's so interesting. I I've had that same experience. I
live in the country, moved from the city eighteen years ago,
and this year I realized that I had never watched
spring actually happen in slow motion, even though I was here,
(02:20):
or often I wasn't here, I was traveling, but I
never had that experience of watching it day by day. Yeah. Yeah,
watching a day by day and at the same time,
time seems to have dissolved. So in my mind it's
still March. But you know, that's a very strange first strange. Then,
So did you move up to Woodstock because of the
(02:43):
pandemic and just getting out of the city. Yeah, I
mean basically we've been I'm married to a sculptor um
and she has her main studio up here, so up
until the virus, we were going back and forth. She
was spending more time up here and was doing all
my work in the city, and you know, we would
go back and forth every week. But when they when
(03:06):
the virus began, we just came up here and I
started doing all of my therapy work, you know, on
the on the telephone or on zoom, or on Skype
or on FaceTime or whatever, um, whatever anybody wanted. Had
you ever worked that way before? No, I always resisted it.
I I hardly ever people would ask me, you know,
(03:29):
if they could have to have sessions while they were
in California or traveling or whatever, and I always said no.
I I was very attached to face to face and
in person and to my little office. And but now
I've totally totally surrendered. Is there anything that you can
say is qualitatively different or that you're missing or is
(03:52):
it just really that we adapt. I haven't started with
anybody new, uh so I've only been working with people
who I already pretty well. And I've been um relieved
and sort of surprised at how seamless the the connections
(04:12):
have been. UM. So it's kind of freed me from
my from attachments. I didn't know I had to the
in person and the office. And you know you can
hear from how often I'm talking about that already, but
I'm not completely detalented. But but it's it's freed me
up some and which has been a good thing. And
(04:34):
I miss the I miss the the human body to
body with you know, psychotherapy space in between, but the
one on one in person, I missed that some. But
but I've been pretty happy with the way things have
been in terms of the therapy work. You live in
many ways at the intersection of Buddhism and um psychoanalysis, yeah, psychotherapy, psychotherapy,
(05:02):
and you've written about this, you know, you've you've written
about that. I know, I've loved reading you for many years,
and you've written about the trauma of everyday life. And
it just struck me when I was thinking of talking
with you that we're in a time now where it
seems our experience is being ratcheted up and people are
(05:25):
having all kinds of responses during the pandemic anxiety, fear, despair, confusion, apathy,
I mean, the end of the gamut um. Can you
speak about what you're seeing and experiencing and how you're
guiding people during this time. Sure, well, I wrote that book,
The Trauma of Everyday Life, you know, I don't know
(05:45):
seven eight years ago. What I found myself saying all
the time when I was talking about the book was
that if we're not suffering from post traumatic stress disorder,
we're suffering from pre traumatic stress disorder. Because, like the
Buddha said years ago, you know, trauma, although he didn't
have that word, he used the word duca, trauma runs
(06:09):
like an underground river through all of our lives, you know,
because the specter of old age and sickness and death
and separation from those we love. UM, that that's inevitable
for all of us at some point in life. UM.
So the strange thing about the virus about this time
(06:30):
is that, um, you know, some aspect of that has
been hitting everybody all at the same time. So that
that's you know, very very unusual. Hasn't happened in a
hundred years, you know. Um. But it's but but it's, um,
it's not out of this world, you know. It's it's
(06:50):
a it's a sort of extreme example of what awaits
us all anyway. So it's bringing up for for many
people it's bringing up past traumatic experiences that have not
been completely worked through. And for many other people, it's creating,
(07:10):
you know, like a kind of first taste of a
traumatic experience that people have to figure out how to
deal with. UH. And for for me, the you know,
my Buddhist background, because I was drawn to Buddhism, involved
with Buddhism before I became a therapist, before I knew
very much about Western therapy. Um. The Buddhist background that
(07:35):
I have has helped me some in in UH, adjusting, coping,
dealing with all these changes that we have to deal with. Mhmm.
I've heard somewhere, I think on another podcast you were
on that you were about to go on an annual retreat. Yeah,
(07:56):
right at the time, just as we were starting to understand. Yeah,
I've been trying to go on the silent mindfulness based
meditation retreats, you know, once a year since my kids
grew up. UM. And I was. I had my reservation,
and I had my coffee that I bought to bring
with me. And it's not you you know, you can
(08:20):
you can bring coffin and my my unscented soap. Uh.
You know, I was, I had all my supplies, and
I was getting ready to go right at the beginning
of March, and uh, and my wife was like, I
don't think you can go. And I was holding on
tight to going, and then clearly I couldn't go. And
(08:40):
then they closed the retreat center a couple of days
after I was supposed to be there. Um, but instead
of me being alone on retreat, it turned out that
everyone in the whole world had to be on retreat
at the same time. So, UM, I had to use
what I what I've learned over those many retreats to
kind of pace myself during during this time. Yeah, that's
(09:02):
something I really wanted to talk to you about. So
you know, you've referred to this time as an accidental
retreat for all of us, and and I actually think
that that's a really gentle and profound way of coming
to think about this time, you know, instead of forced
isolation or somehow punishment, or to think of it if
(09:25):
it's if it's a retreat, even if it's an accidental
retreat or one that you know none of us wanted
for all the reasons. You know that you know the
world is in a state of stuff is suffering. But
how might we be more purposeful and thoughtful as we're
navigating this terrain. Well, I think there's a couple of things.
(09:46):
You know, Um, my experience going on these retreats is
that whatever is kind of lurking in the shadows of
my psyche, there's an opportunity for that hidden material to
reveal self, either in my dreams or in the meditation itself,
in the in the thoughts that come or the memories
(10:08):
that come. Um, And I'm always surprised and kind of
taken aback and curious about what's what what's going to
come up or what does come up. But I think
something similar is happening for a lot of people, either
in their family lives, in their marriages, in their in
(10:29):
their domestic environments. That things that maybe we're being pushed
under the rug that there wasn't time to really deal
with or even to notice, given the the way time
is kind of paralyzed. Uh, there's opportunity for for all
(10:52):
this stuff that we might be ignoring in our regular
lives too, that we can actually pay attention to it.
So there's a there's a chance to come to terms
with stuff, to make peace with stuff, to to make
some internal changes that maybe need to be made um Anyway,
it's so interesting to me. I've been thinking so much
(11:12):
about it and wondering whether I'm making too much of
the confluence of events, you know, these two thunderclaps of
COVID nineteen and the death of George Floyd and the
outpouring that happened since then. I feel has something to
do with the fact that we're left alone with ourselves
(11:36):
now that there's no distraction. Yeah, and who knows what
else is gonna reveal itself. You know, I have an
an old friend of mine. People will think I'm strange
about this, but an old friend of mine is an astrologer,
and and she said, there's a you know, Saturn Pluto
conjunction happening started in February that's gonna last about two
(11:59):
years because Pluto, the furthest planet, moves so slowly. So
it's even from an astrological perspective. It's a time of
hidden things being turned up and exposed and having to
let go of what we've outgrown. It's like a reckoning
on top of a reckoning on top of a Yeah. Yeah,
(12:21):
so what is bringing you hope now? The possibility of
a vaccine that's which I think is far off. Unfortunately
from everything that I've been reading, trying to make use
of my medical school background, I don't have a lot
of hope for the near future. I think we're I
(12:43):
think we're in a period of a day and at
least in New York, but I doubt that that's going
to stick. I have faith in the good sense of
the American people that the election is going to bring change,
but I've been wrong before. I've been very touched by
(13:03):
how actually willing everyone they're the bulk of the people
in the country and in the world, how willing people
have been to sacrifice during this time for the benefit
of the greater of the greater good, you know. But
I don't have a lot of you know, I think
(13:24):
the forces of greed and hatred and ignorance are are
likely to be as strong as ever. That battle that's
been going ever since I was born. I think it's
going to continue. In closing, I'm just thinking about people
listening and the way in which, you know, we're all
(13:46):
isolated either by ourselves or with family or friends, and
there's this period that we're in right now, is we're
speaking where things are kind of opening up, and there
are a lot of mixed messages, you know, all over
the place, and I think so many people are longing
(14:07):
to go back to you know, use words like normal
or the new normal, or various sort of euphemisms for
like please, let's just have this be over. And of
course it's not going to be over anytime soon, as
you say, And and I just keep on thinking about plans.
And I watched as my entire you know, months of many, many,
(14:28):
many plans and travel and all sorts of things were
like instantly within a day, like your retreat sort of
stripped away, and my calendar went from very full to
completely blank. And the thought that I was having that
I guess would be sort of at the intersection of
of Buddhism and psychotherapy, is our plans are really always
just fantasies. Yeah, um, well you're you're saying a lot
(14:51):
of profans things there. But in my in my trauma book,
I I use this phrase that the rush to normal,
the tendency when UH dealing with the traumatic event is
to try to rush back to normal, you know, and
that that rush to normal doesn't allow for the processing
of the of the emotions of the reactions of the
(15:15):
responses to the traumatic event. It just pushes it down
and and that's what leads to what we call post
traumatic stress. You know, where the unworked through aspects of
whatever happened, it has nowhere to go except up through
your dreams and you know, out later in life to
to nag at you and make you anxious. So but
(15:35):
that's a real human tendency to try to get back
to the way things are supposed to be, to the
way things were. And what we learn in meditation, what
we learned from Buddhism, is that, you know, we never
know what the next moment is going to bring. We
really don't a lot of the time. The probability is
that we can almost know, you know, but uh, we
(15:59):
never really know. And now now we're really dwelling in
uncertainty now, you know, all we have our memories and
and this moment, and it's very uncertain what what tomorrow
is going to be. Let alone, you know, November, it's
possible to live much more in the moment, as you
(16:20):
were saying, experiencing the spring, you know, but but that
was so wonderful to see the spring unfold moment to moment,
day to day and we can live like that. And
right now, fortunately or unfortunately, we kind of have to
live like that, because the more we try to make
things the way they were, the more it's gonna rebel
(16:44):
against us and we will end up suffering more for that. No, absolutely,
And I think embracing there's there's a piece that can
be found at the center of that, embracing the uncertainty.
I guess that's what we're all needing to find. We
need to find it. Yeah, I called I called one
of my books going to Pieces without Falling Apart, Yeah,
(17:06):
which is sort of luck where where we're all at
right now, that's perfect if we're not falling apart at
least we have to let ourselves go to pieces that
that's sort of like letting all those plans and expectations
and so on. You know, we really do all have
to let that go. Mark, thank you so much for
taking a time to to talk to us today. And yeah,
(17:27):
it's just a gift. You're very welcome. Thanks for listening
to the way we live now. Tell us the way
you're living now. We want to hear call us on.
You might want to get a pen for this nine
oh nine seven one three eight that's nine O nine
(17:49):
seven one three eight nine nine five and record your
story and we might just use it on the pod. Also,
you can join our Facebook group at facebook dot com
slash groups slash the Way We Live Now Pod. We
are creating a community here and we would love for
you to join us. You can find me on Instagram
at Danny Ryder. The Way We Live Now is a
(18:11):
production of iHeart Radio. It's produced by a Low Brolante.
Bethan Macaluso is executive producer. Special thanks to Tristan McNeil
and Tyler Klang. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
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