July 1, 2020 • 18 mins
The founder of a beloved East Coast retreat center misses the magic that happens when we gather together in person to learn, or to celebrate, or to mourn.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm Danny Shapiro and this is the Way We Live Now.
Today is day one thirteen since we started wondering if
we'd ever get haircuts again and d A fifty seven
of this podcast. For years now, part of what I
do as a writer and teacher of writing is I
lead retreats, large gatherings of folks who want to explore, recharge,
(00:29):
renew There are retreat centers all over the world that
are so important to thousands and thousands of people. What
will happen to these o a c s of spiritual
and practical learning? One of the most famous of these
is the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. My guest
today is Elizabeth Lesser, best selling author and co founder
(00:50):
of Omega. Elizabeth, thank you so much for talking with
me about the way we live now. Thank you for
having me describe for us where you are. Paint us
a picture as we're having this conversation. What are you
surrounded by? Where are you sitting? What are you looking at? Well,
(01:13):
I'm in the room where I write, my office in
my house, where I imagine most of us are these days.
I live in the Catskill Mountains in a little town Coldwood, stock,
New York, and I'm looking out my window at trees
at my garden. I've finally had the time because I'm
not working all the time, to pay attention to my gardens.
(01:36):
So they're looking rather splendid, if I do say so myself.
I've been hearing that a lot. I've been hearing a
lot about um, not just people tending more to their gardens,
into the nature around them, but actually noticing more too. Yeah, so,
(01:56):
how have you been spending the last three or some months.
I just looked at the calendar today and I saw
that it's pretty much exactly four months from the last
time I left this little town. Um, and I've been
spending it. You know. In the beginning, I thought, oh,
all of these undone projects. Yes, I will have so
(02:19):
much free time, and I shall attend to all of this,
from deep cleaning closet ideas to you know, all sorts
of ideas. But actually, I've been working so hard, so
much because besides being a writer and having a book
coming out in September, more than that, I am the
co founder of a large educational nonprofit. And even though
(02:45):
I am the co founder and not a full time
staff person anymore, because we had to shut down and
lose an entire year's worth of savings and I mean
money income, and we don't have any save things. Like
most nonprofits. We are scrambling, you know. We had to
lay off a lot of people, and we have to
(03:07):
reimagine ourselves on how to be a residential retreat and
conference center post COVID in a new world. So that's
been taking a lot of my time. Also, my one
of my sons and his wife and little kids live
next door to me, so I got very involved in
home schooling the kids and being grandma since there aren't
(03:32):
many other babysitting options. So it's been super super busy
and being a news junkie. I've also just been I
feel so emotionally engaged in the world. It has not
felt like what I thought it might be, like sort
of a retreat. It has not felt like that. That's
(03:55):
so interesting. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I
really wanted to ask you about Omega, you know which
you you mentioned You're the co founder of the Omega Institute,
which is just one of the country's most special and
renowned retreat and conference centers. And I keep on trying
to imagine you know, the same way that crowd scenes
(04:18):
in movies now suddenly seem like wait, no, don't do that.
There's like the feeling of or the fantasy of hundreds
and hundreds of people very closely together, um, you know,
packed into rooms and cafeterias and um you know doing that, um,
(04:39):
not for work, but as a way to gather and
renew and relax. How are you imagining the future, like
what what? What? Now? What next? Mm hmm, Well, of
course it's such a complicated question and answer because it
(05:00):
seems to me that, um, you know, this doesn't seem
to be a time to know what's going to happen.
We don't know what's going to happen. There's such enormous
discomfort in all of us, and myself for sure, but
I've noticed everyone. I've actually noticed it in humans forever,
like we like to know what's going to happen, and
(05:22):
that sense of helplessness of not knowing what's going to happen.
But actually, this doesn't seem to be a moment to
know what's going to happen. It's a moment to dream
about what could emerge from this. So when I talk
about what might emerge, from it. I actually have no
idea what I'm talking about. I mean, we could get
(05:45):
a vaccine and we could all get it every year
and be free from it, and then us human beings,
we just go back to the way it always was.
But I actually don't think that is the truth. And
I think we're all going to have to reimagine our lives.
And when I take a big, you know, hundred foot
look at things, I'm like, that's cool, that's good. We
(06:09):
needed to reimagine our lives and our businesses and all
the travel we do. And but when I am down
in the weeds, which I am at least more than
half of the time, it's it's overwhelming. What a place
like Omega Institute, which as you said, welcomes about thirty
thousand people a year to our campus, which is, you know,
(06:32):
people living and eating and learning together in large crowds.
That just couldn't happen this year at all. And probably
if we open again next year, it'll have to look different.
But but one thing I know for sure, the urge
to gather together is not going to go away. You know,
(06:55):
whether it's at a Bruce Springsteen concert or a church
or uh wherever, it is we've gone. You know, like
Jesus said, when two or more of you gather, I
am there, the I am there the sense of like
when we gather together to celebrate or mourn or learn. Uh,
(07:19):
there's something so magical. A third thing comes in and helps.
And you know, people are saying, well, what about online learning.
That's all good, and we are trying to pivot to that,
but it's not the same as being in nature with
a group of people committed to either some kind of
self transformation or inner work or renewing your career or
(07:42):
learning new skills. It's just so human. It's like the
old gathering at the oasis and and sharing ideas across
culture and across disciplines. I know it will come back.
I know the urge will never go away. And how
it changes us I don't know. The real the real
(08:04):
challenge right now for all nonprofits and all learning institutions
is can we stay alive long enough to figure out
what the next is? Yeah? I I that makes so
much sense to me. It's and and I love what
you said about the um. You know, the long view
and the weeds and how much time you're spending in
(08:26):
each and me too. I I think we all are
struggling with the idea that the that the very notion
of plans um. I mean I've come to the realization
that plans are just they were fantasies, um, you know,
and any any kind of imagining of you know, next
(08:48):
week I'm going to do this, or this afternoon I'm
going to do that is always always, you know, has
been and will always be. You know, as you know
the old Jews say God willing and now here we
are and we really don't know. Yeah, I used to
always my my tradition is Sufism, which is mystical Islam,
(09:09):
and God willing in Arabic is in Shalah. And I
always used to just like when my teacher would always
say in Shalah, it just you know, sounded like yeah, yeah,
I know, we're supposed to be in the moment. But
like you know, us people, we like the plan. But um,
when something like this hits you, and I think what's
(09:29):
so powerful right now is you know, it hits you
if you get a terrible health diagnosis, if you lose
your job, you know, all the unknowns that can happen
in a split moment. But this is happening to the
entire fabric of our life. There's nothing that isn't being
touched from financially, socially, politically, health wise, family wise, education wise,
(09:55):
everything is being touched. So it's so radically up wedding.
And one thing I've just been practicing over and over
and I I hope everyone is, it's just being really
kind to our poor selves who are so be fuddled
every day. It's like you wake up, it's groundhog Day. Really,
(10:18):
we're gonna go through this all over again. It's just like, hey,
it's okay. This is a befuddling time. That's gentle and beautiful.
You know, I wanted to ask you. You've written several
best selling books, all of which I love, But the
one that I've been thinking about during the pandemic is
(10:39):
Broken Open Um. And the subtitle of Broken Open which
is where I first encountered you. I first encountered you
on the page, and I felt that you were speaking
directly to me. Um. And the subtitle is how difficult
times can help Us grow? Um. Can you speak at
all in particular to you? Know? These are really un
(11:00):
usually difficult times. Um. We couldn't have dreamt this up um,
and talking about the future in terms of what it's
going to look like is all conjecture, but we also
are I'm so aware every day it's still a day.
It's still the only day, you know, and I know
(11:22):
personally that I'm trying so hard to not wish these
days away. You know, Let's get to September when college
is open maybe and my son can go back to school,
or let's you know, I've accepted invitations for in person
and events, you know, next June, you know, a year
from now, Like, let's get to a place where we
(11:43):
can do that. That's wishing time away when time is
our only and most precious commodity. So how do we
grow within these times? Well, I think we go back
to what I said before. There's the weeds, and then
(12:06):
there's the bigger perspective, and um. First of all, when
we're in the weeds, not to think there's something, um
that we're failing, especially if we're kind of people who
have considered ourselves on some sort of spiritual path or
healing path our whole life, like to be freaking out
(12:28):
and upset and like WHOA. The first few weeks for me,
I was just a terrible version of myself. I was
angry and acting out all over the place with my
colleagues at work as we were all trying to figure
out what to do. So, like, in the weeds of
it all, in the not knowing and the discomfort of
(12:49):
not knowing and the fear of having lost your job
or not being able to make your rent, all the
stuff that's happening to all of us, um being, have
a lot of self forgiveness, first of all toward ourselves,
so that that this is hard. This is hard, um.
(13:10):
So it's okay to be a jerk sometimes and at
the same time to be super forgiving of other people,
especially those poor people we live with. Um, you know,
like it's hard for all of us. And to have
a lot of spaciousness in our relationships and even in
our relationship to the news and to other people, and
(13:32):
to not to feed this time of great discomfort with
more discomfort toward yourself. So that's that's the weedy part.
And then how to grow in the more, um, the
bigger dimension. And this really helps me. I don't know
if it helps other people as much as it helps me,
but it helps me to know that, um, you know,
(13:55):
how in Charles Dickens his most famous book, A Tale
of Two Cities. My mother made me memorize the opening lines.
She was an English teacher. So he says, it was
the best of times, it was the worst of times.
It was the age of wisdom. It was the age
of foolishness. It was the epic of belief. It was
(14:16):
the epic of incredulity. It was the season of light.
It was the season of darkness. It was the spring
of hope. It was the winter of despair. We had
everything before us, we had nothing before us. And he
was writing that in you know, mid eighteen hundreds about
(14:37):
the French Revolution, to remember that, like, this is just
what happens to our species on this planet. This has
happened before, whether it's wars or other pandemics or whatever
tragedies before. Cultures, cultures come and go, Cultures rise and
(14:58):
then have a reckoning and need to reinvent themselves. Cities, towns, communities.
This is what happens. And we've lived in a relatively
peaceful and bountiful time in this country, even those of
us who aren't wealthy, even those of us who struggle,
(15:19):
This has been a relative long string of bountiful times
and um, we're not in one right now, and it
may get worse. And to think that there's something like
like having a tantrum, like, no, it shouldn't be this way. Well, actually,
this is the way it always is. And I think
(15:40):
if if we've been paying attention to what's going on
with things like climate change and the vast inequity of
wealth and all the other problems, and the rise of
tyranny and the the practical civil war cleaving in our country, um,
it was gonna some thing was gonna have to wake
(16:01):
us up. And this is what's happening now. I do
believe it, and I do believe that if we banded
together and and work together, it could actually be a wonderful, wonderful,
hopeful time. It's not going to feel like that, and
it could take a decade or two. But I like
to have that historical perspective. It helps me not have
(16:24):
a personal tantrum. Uh. I love that, And thank you
for reading. I'm not reading reciting the deafens. That was.
I needed to hear that, and I think everyone else
will too. You know. I usually end these conversations by asking, uh,
what's bringing you hope? But really you're talking about that,
that's exactly, and you know and I you're saying something
(16:47):
that I have been trying to articulate from the beginning
of of the COVID crisis, which is we're living We're
always living through a moment in history, We're always doing that,
but we really are doing that now. This is we
are living in. They're not even unprecedented times. It's it's
a we're living in a very intense time. And these
(17:11):
intense times have come and they've gone, and they've come
and they've gone like waves. And the question is really
do we uh? Do we do we learn? And do
we do we grow from them? I sometimes like to
say with great tenderness, these are our times. These are ours,
and we can do with them what we want. And
these have been given to us. We've created them, we
(17:36):
are at the effect of them, but they are ours,
and what are we going to do with them? Elizabeth?
Thank you so much. This is such a rousing conversation
and I can't wait for people to hear. All right,
thank you for having me, Thanks for listening to the
way we live now, tell us the way you're living now.
(17:59):
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(18:21):
We Live Now Pod. We are creating a community here
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can find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. The Way
We Live Now is a production of I Heart Radio.
It's produced by a Low Brulante. Bethan Macaluso is executive producer.
Special thanks to Tristan McNeil and Tyler Klang. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
(18:44):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Danny Shapiro and this is the Way We Live Now.
Today is day one thirteen since we started wondering if
we'd ever get haircuts again and d A fifty seven
of this podcast. For years now, part of what I
do as a writer and teacher of writing is I
lead retreats, large gatherings of folks who want to explore, recharge,
(00:29):
renew There are retreat centers all over the world that
are so important to thousands and thousands of people. What
will happen to these o a c s of spiritual
and practical learning? One of the most famous of these
is the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. My guest
today is Elizabeth Lesser, best selling author and co founder
(00:50):
of Omega. Elizabeth, thank you so much for talking with
me about the way we live now. Thank you for
having me describe for us where you are. Paint us
a picture as we're having this conversation. What are you
surrounded by? Where are you sitting? What are you looking at? Well,
(01:13):
I'm in the room where I write, my office in
my house, where I imagine most of us are these days.
I live in the Catskill Mountains in a little town Coldwood, stock,
New York, and I'm looking out my window at trees
at my garden. I've finally had the time because I'm
not working all the time, to pay attention to my gardens.
(01:36):
So they're looking rather splendid, if I do say so myself.
I've been hearing that a lot. I've been hearing a
lot about um, not just people tending more to their gardens,
into the nature around them, but actually noticing more too. Yeah, so,
(01:56):
how have you been spending the last three or some months.
I just looked at the calendar today and I saw
that it's pretty much exactly four months from the last
time I left this little town. Um, and I've been
spending it. You know. In the beginning, I thought, oh,
all of these undone projects. Yes, I will have so
(02:19):
much free time, and I shall attend to all of this,
from deep cleaning closet ideas to you know, all sorts
of ideas. But actually, I've been working so hard, so
much because besides being a writer and having a book
coming out in September, more than that, I am the
co founder of a large educational nonprofit. And even though
(02:45):
I am the co founder and not a full time
staff person anymore, because we had to shut down and
lose an entire year's worth of savings and I mean
money income, and we don't have any save things. Like
most nonprofits. We are scrambling, you know. We had to
lay off a lot of people, and we have to
(03:07):
reimagine ourselves on how to be a residential retreat and
conference center post COVID in a new world. So that's
been taking a lot of my time. Also, my one
of my sons and his wife and little kids live
next door to me, so I got very involved in
home schooling the kids and being grandma since there aren't
(03:32):
many other babysitting options. So it's been super super busy
and being a news junkie. I've also just been I
feel so emotionally engaged in the world. It has not
felt like what I thought it might be, like sort
of a retreat. It has not felt like that. That's
(03:55):
so interesting. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I
really wanted to ask you about Omega, you know which
you you mentioned You're the co founder of the Omega Institute,
which is just one of the country's most special and
renowned retreat and conference centers. And I keep on trying
to imagine you know, the same way that crowd scenes
(04:18):
in movies now suddenly seem like wait, no, don't do that.
There's like the feeling of or the fantasy of hundreds
and hundreds of people very closely together, um, you know,
packed into rooms and cafeterias and um you know doing that, um,
(04:39):
not for work, but as a way to gather and
renew and relax. How are you imagining the future, like
what what? What? Now? What next? Mm hmm, Well, of
course it's such a complicated question and answer because it
(05:00):
seems to me that, um, you know, this doesn't seem
to be a time to know what's going to happen.
We don't know what's going to happen. There's such enormous
discomfort in all of us, and myself for sure, but
I've noticed everyone. I've actually noticed it in humans forever,
like we like to know what's going to happen, and
(05:22):
that sense of helplessness of not knowing what's going to happen.
But actually, this doesn't seem to be a moment to
know what's going to happen. It's a moment to dream
about what could emerge from this. So when I talk
about what might emerge, from it. I actually have no
idea what I'm talking about. I mean, we could get
(05:45):
a vaccine and we could all get it every year
and be free from it, and then us human beings,
we just go back to the way it always was.
But I actually don't think that is the truth. And
I think we're all going to have to reimagine our lives.
And when I take a big, you know, hundred foot
look at things, I'm like, that's cool, that's good. We
(06:09):
needed to reimagine our lives and our businesses and all
the travel we do. And but when I am down
in the weeds, which I am at least more than
half of the time, it's it's overwhelming. What a place
like Omega Institute, which as you said, welcomes about thirty
thousand people a year to our campus, which is, you know,
(06:32):
people living and eating and learning together in large crowds.
That just couldn't happen this year at all. And probably
if we open again next year, it'll have to look different.
But but one thing I know for sure, the urge
to gather together is not going to go away. You know,
(06:55):
whether it's at a Bruce Springsteen concert or a church
or uh wherever, it is we've gone. You know, like
Jesus said, when two or more of you gather, I
am there, the I am there the sense of like
when we gather together to celebrate or mourn or learn. Uh,
(07:19):
there's something so magical. A third thing comes in and helps.
And you know, people are saying, well, what about online learning.
That's all good, and we are trying to pivot to that,
but it's not the same as being in nature with
a group of people committed to either some kind of
self transformation or inner work or renewing your career or
(07:42):
learning new skills. It's just so human. It's like the
old gathering at the oasis and and sharing ideas across
culture and across disciplines. I know it will come back.
I know the urge will never go away. And how
it changes us I don't know. The real the real
(08:04):
challenge right now for all nonprofits and all learning institutions
is can we stay alive long enough to figure out
what the next is? Yeah? I I that makes so
much sense to me. It's and and I love what
you said about the um. You know, the long view
and the weeds and how much time you're spending in
(08:26):
each and me too. I I think we all are
struggling with the idea that the that the very notion
of plans um. I mean I've come to the realization
that plans are just they were fantasies, um, you know,
and any any kind of imagining of you know, next
(08:48):
week I'm going to do this, or this afternoon I'm
going to do that is always always, you know, has
been and will always be. You know, as you know
the old Jews say God willing and now here we
are and we really don't know. Yeah, I used to
always my my tradition is Sufism, which is mystical Islam,
(09:09):
and God willing in Arabic is in Shalah. And I
always used to just like when my teacher would always
say in Shalah, it just you know, sounded like yeah, yeah,
I know, we're supposed to be in the moment. But
like you know, us people, we like the plan. But um,
when something like this hits you, and I think what's
(09:29):
so powerful right now is you know, it hits you
if you get a terrible health diagnosis, if you lose
your job, you know, all the unknowns that can happen
in a split moment. But this is happening to the
entire fabric of our life. There's nothing that isn't being
touched from financially, socially, politically, health wise, family wise, education wise,
(09:55):
everything is being touched. So it's so radically up wedding.
And one thing I've just been practicing over and over
and I I hope everyone is, it's just being really
kind to our poor selves who are so be fuddled
every day. It's like you wake up, it's groundhog Day. Really,
(10:18):
we're gonna go through this all over again. It's just like, hey,
it's okay. This is a befuddling time. That's gentle and beautiful.
You know, I wanted to ask you. You've written several
best selling books, all of which I love, But the
one that I've been thinking about during the pandemic is
(10:39):
Broken Open Um. And the subtitle of Broken Open which
is where I first encountered you. I first encountered you
on the page, and I felt that you were speaking
directly to me. Um. And the subtitle is how difficult
times can help Us grow? Um. Can you speak at
all in particular to you? Know? These are really un
(11:00):
usually difficult times. Um. We couldn't have dreamt this up um,
and talking about the future in terms of what it's
going to look like is all conjecture, but we also
are I'm so aware every day it's still a day.
It's still the only day, you know, and I know
(11:22):
personally that I'm trying so hard to not wish these
days away. You know, Let's get to September when college
is open maybe and my son can go back to school,
or let's you know, I've accepted invitations for in person
and events, you know, next June, you know, a year
from now, Like, let's get to a place where we
(11:43):
can do that. That's wishing time away when time is
our only and most precious commodity. So how do we
grow within these times? Well, I think we go back
to what I said before. There's the weeds, and then
(12:06):
there's the bigger perspective, and um. First of all, when
we're in the weeds, not to think there's something, um
that we're failing, especially if we're kind of people who
have considered ourselves on some sort of spiritual path or
healing path our whole life, like to be freaking out
(12:28):
and upset and like WHOA. The first few weeks for me,
I was just a terrible version of myself. I was
angry and acting out all over the place with my
colleagues at work as we were all trying to figure
out what to do. So, like, in the weeds of
it all, in the not knowing and the discomfort of
(12:49):
not knowing and the fear of having lost your job
or not being able to make your rent, all the
stuff that's happening to all of us, um being, have
a lot of self forgiveness, first of all toward ourselves,
so that that this is hard. This is hard, um.
(13:10):
So it's okay to be a jerk sometimes and at
the same time to be super forgiving of other people,
especially those poor people we live with. Um, you know,
like it's hard for all of us. And to have
a lot of spaciousness in our relationships and even in
our relationship to the news and to other people, and
(13:32):
to not to feed this time of great discomfort with
more discomfort toward yourself. So that's that's the weedy part.
And then how to grow in the more, um, the
bigger dimension. And this really helps me. I don't know
if it helps other people as much as it helps me,
but it helps me to know that, um, you know,
(13:55):
how in Charles Dickens his most famous book, A Tale
of Two Cities. My mother made me memorize the opening lines.
She was an English teacher. So he says, it was
the best of times, it was the worst of times.
It was the age of wisdom. It was the age
of foolishness. It was the epic of belief. It was
(14:16):
the epic of incredulity. It was the season of light.
It was the season of darkness. It was the spring
of hope. It was the winter of despair. We had
everything before us, we had nothing before us. And he
was writing that in you know, mid eighteen hundreds about
(14:37):
the French Revolution, to remember that, like, this is just
what happens to our species on this planet. This has
happened before, whether it's wars or other pandemics or whatever
tragedies before. Cultures, cultures come and go, Cultures rise and
(14:58):
then have a reckoning and need to reinvent themselves. Cities, towns, communities.
This is what happens. And we've lived in a relatively
peaceful and bountiful time in this country, even those of
us who aren't wealthy, even those of us who struggle,
(15:19):
This has been a relative long string of bountiful times
and um, we're not in one right now, and it
may get worse. And to think that there's something like
like having a tantrum, like, no, it shouldn't be this way. Well, actually,
this is the way it always is. And I think
(15:40):
if if we've been paying attention to what's going on
with things like climate change and the vast inequity of
wealth and all the other problems, and the rise of
tyranny and the the practical civil war cleaving in our country, um,
it was gonna some thing was gonna have to wake
(16:01):
us up. And this is what's happening now. I do
believe it, and I do believe that if we banded
together and and work together, it could actually be a wonderful, wonderful,
hopeful time. It's not going to feel like that, and
it could take a decade or two. But I like
to have that historical perspective. It helps me not have
(16:24):
a personal tantrum. Uh. I love that, And thank you
for reading. I'm not reading reciting the deafens. That was.
I needed to hear that, and I think everyone else
will too. You know. I usually end these conversations by asking, uh,
what's bringing you hope? But really you're talking about that,
that's exactly, and you know and I you're saying something
(16:47):
that I have been trying to articulate from the beginning
of of the COVID crisis, which is we're living We're
always living through a moment in history, We're always doing that,
but we really are doing that now. This is we
are living in. They're not even unprecedented times. It's it's
a we're living in a very intense time. And these
(17:11):
intense times have come and they've gone, and they've come
and they've gone like waves. And the question is really
do we uh? Do we do we learn? And do
we do we grow from them? I sometimes like to
say with great tenderness, these are our times. These are ours,
and we can do with them what we want. And
these have been given to us. We've created them, we
(17:36):
are at the effect of them, but they are ours,
and what are we going to do with them? Elizabeth?
Thank you so much. This is such a rousing conversation
and I can't wait for people to hear. All right,
thank you for having me, Thanks for listening to the
way we live now, tell us the way you're living now.
(17:59):
We want to here call us on you might want
to a pen for this nine O nine one three
eight that's nine O nine seven three eight nine nine
five and record your story and we might just use
it on the pod. Also, you can join our Facebook
group at facebook dot com slash groups slash the Way
(18:21):
We Live Now Pod. We are creating a community here
and we would love for you to join us. You
can find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. The Way
We Live Now is a production of I Heart Radio.
It's produced by a Low Brulante. Bethan Macaluso is executive producer.
Special thanks to Tristan McNeil and Tyler Klang. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
(18:44):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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