Watch The Throne 10 Year Anniversary Episode

Jay-Z and Kanye West teamed up to release Watch the Throne on August 8th 2011. 10 years after it's release, Mouse and Nyla talk about its impact, how Jay and Ye mixed swag and style with heavier topics like future fatherhood, a push for Black excellence and challenge American beauty standards. We ask, is Watch the Throne the best collaboration album of all time? Featuring journalist Jayson Rodriguez.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This week on the What, We're going back in time
again sort of. It's the tenure anniversary of Watch the Throne,
the collab album of Jay Z and Kanye West that
was released on August A, two tho eleven, and we're
gonna talk about the cultural impact the album had on
hip hop. Not only that, since Watched the Throne was
released ten years ago. That's right, ten years ago, many

(00:22):
have tried to replicate what J and Y did. We'll
talk about those releases and answer the question, was this
the best collaboration album of all time? Welcome to the
What hip Hop Questions, Legends and lists. Each week we

(00:42):
answered an unanswered question and hip hop circles and by
the end of the show we try to answer the question.
This week we're gonna try to answer was Watched the
Throne the best collab album of all times? Like all
times from the time that time began to now. I
think I think this might be the first episode where
we actually agree on something. Wow, crazy, but d Block

(01:05):
wrap it up now. But I's going on, guys, I'm
not with Simone. Then I'm the man who puts the
Jackson juxtaposition. I am Mouse Janes that tongue twister. I
just don't every time you say my brain has a
slight fart to go ahead. But anyway, that's what did
you have a brain for? Howells too? This is our
producers there in a K, A d Block, Block and

(01:27):
a King, of course, and eight King got the Buckehead
and he's giving very eighty five dope dealings, has an aesthetic,
and I don't think anybody really gives him the credit
he deserved. Like eight King since I've met him two
thousands fifteen has had eight five ninety dope boys like

(01:50):
the good Head and then you could tell when him
and rest the peace O g red when that team
started getting money stepping now boy three C three on
Peachtree with a King movie leave it there but movie,

(02:12):
oh Man and deep Block. Some people have hit me
up complaining about your name being deep Block, and and
I stand, and I defend actually defend Block. I do too,
But I just want you to know it's like it's
more out here. Everyone do that intro. I was called
deep Block before the Locks got everything. Even if that's true,
don't don't say it. Don't you don't say that. Yeah,

(02:35):
I told I told them that I'm like, no, he said,
he's been got this name, and we know dip Say's
gonna win anyway, So anyway, he's right. But you might
not want don't want to say, alright, good thing, this
is not alright, wellyne out today we're gonna be talking
about Well, Darren pointed out to us that it's about

(02:57):
to be the tenure anniversary of Washington. You don't have
to point it out to me. I knew that. We
put it out like weeks ago. Now it's like trending
and stuff like that. You knew that. Yes, Listen, let
me tell you something about Watching the Throw Wild is
one of those moments in time where you remember exactly
what was happening. You remember how you to this day,
you remember what was going on in your life because

(03:18):
it all is anchored by the first time you heard
Watch the Throne. When I heard Watch the Throne, that
was the only time since being in the military that
I had a real job. It was like a four
month period that I was working as a manager at
this collection firm, and I remember listening to the album.
This is when Torrents were big. This is when Torents
were big. So the album actually leaked the week before.

(03:40):
So I got the Torrent and I play it in
the car and I hear and I said, I'm not
going back in this job. I'm not I'm not going
back in this job. From from No Church in a while,
from the time that hits, Oh my goodness, like that too,

(04:01):
I don't count seem gold like from now, I said,
I'm not going back in this job. There's nothing they
can do that's going to match this feeling. Like whatever
I do with life, I'm serious, whatever I do in
my life has to match up to the feeling that
this album is giving me. And going in here calling
people to pay their bills or helping people who are
having a hard time to get people to pay their bills,
it's not worthy of Watch the Throne. Yeah, that's what

(04:24):
Watched the Throne. So, yeah, you remember where you are,
so you remember when year ten the anniversary coming up.
But that's my relationship with it right now. Let me
ask you where were you? What was going on in
your lifetime? What was happening in the world of nowly
Simone when Watch the Throne Drop two eleven, I was
still in high school in a drop J Chris, I
was they had. They released so many singles off the project,

(04:47):
so I remember it as like taking it into single
by single, like oh this was on repeat. Um, no
church of course, like you said, um. And the music
videos of them fucking was a drifting Oh it's like that.
I remember buying that music video. So you bought the
music video. Oh yeah, I bought mad music videos. I

(05:07):
have so many music videos because that's interesting. Yeah, so,
like you, even from Lime Wire days, I used to
download music videos also. So so at that time, being
young and you know, these being too, it's even rough
to say right now, and um, I might be I
might be testing the waters by saying this, but at

(05:28):
that moment, being so young and these two being somewhat
legacy acts at this point right like they were early
they were early into their legacy of their career, right
Seeing that, did you were you able to appreciate like
this is Jay and Kanye. Who wasn't just like, oh,
this is new music, that's cool. That's a good question. Actually,

(05:49):
I wouldn't say I don't think, Okay, that's a good question,
because I never really, I guess, looked at it like that,
like the way you feel about it, like damn, this
is Jay and Kanye. It's like I like Jay and
I like Kanye, and I think that they got together,
but I don't think. I don't think I thought of
it as a significant as you did. Probably, And now

(06:11):
that I appreciate more now that I'm older, and now
that I've seen like the directory, oh my gosh. Anyway,
I want to find out where kind of like everybody's
relationship with us. So it was only right that today
where we're talking about discussing Watch the Throne, such a
legendary album, we have a legendary uh pin, a legendary pen,

(06:35):
a legendary voice, a legendary thought leader in hip hop culture.
We have what A King referred to him as earlier,
and it made perfect sense when he said that, he said,
a master journalist. We are joined by the Jason Rodriguez,
Welcome to the what hip hop questions? Like master journalist.
I gotta get more comfortable wearing that. I appreciate that

(07:02):
my brother King knows him. He's real comfortable wearing legendary one.
But shall I wears legendary like it's attached to his
first name. He wears it really well. You gotta, I gotta,
I gotta I gotta get better out wearing it. That
get master journalists a king. I'm gonna hit you with
We'll work out the paperwork for the royalties I got, Yeah,

(07:23):
I'll make sure the admin. Yeah, working out with Clarence.
So let let me ask you this. We're gushing about it.
What what was your relationship to Wash the Throne? You? Um,
I think it's really dope to three different perspectives we're
gonna get today, right, Like Nyla literally in high school,
me m being somebody who at the moment was on

(07:43):
the outskirts, really had no relationship to hip hop as
a business or as a life, I mean outside of lifestyle.
Like I'm just just grew up in it, loved these guys.
You were in it. You were the thing that pretty
much inspired all of us, and you were in it
in real time. So in that moment, like now, I look,
it's early on into their legacy act. But legacy act nonetheless,

(08:06):
we get Kanye, we get Jay Washed the Throne. What's
your relationship to that? No, I mean I love I
love this album. You know I was mentioned to your
earlier like I still love this album and when when
I talk about it, like I still want to have
that reverence for it, right, Like I don't want to
be too cool to be like, oh, you know it
was cool back then, like na man, it was. It
was a really dope album. And you know, Jay more
so was like at the onset of like his legacy,

(08:26):
but like Connie was still in the midst influential. And
that's that's kind of like this like awkward tension that
made the project even come together, right, Like like Kanye
was just like media, like it was just a media
his rise, right, and so like jay Z kind of
had to like little bro him like hold on, hold on,
I can't have you go on ahead of me, because
I think before that, you know, Jay never really had
like real threats, right, like, um, little Wayne was popping.

(08:49):
But Little Wayne and Ja they do the same thing,
right spinning bars mixtape scene you could see it with
with Kanye and the later with Drake, Like you know
there they get popping in a way that's different than Jay,
and so Jay had to look at like what am
I gonna do with this? And also like obviously, like
Kanye's on his label, so he can't you know, he
can't take his head off, So it's different so he
embraced straight. Later on with Kanye, they pulled together to
make this this album Watch the Throne, and you know,

(09:12):
it was it was such a big deal and and
figuring out like how are they like gonna combine to
do this, because we know what they were like as
rapper and producer, right, but now it's like peers, right,
he's not a little growing him. You have to be
peers to do this and there's gonna be input from
both sides. How's it gonna happen? And that was exciting, right,
Like it's exciting. We're trying to figure out, like you know,
at the start of the recording, I was a reporter
for MTV News, so it's like me and Shaheim are

(09:34):
digging around trying to find any bits of information what's
going on, like oh, the recording some of it here
and then they went to France for a little bit
um you know, some parts in Hawaii, some parts like
you know right here on Mercer And it's just exciting
to figure out, like how are they going to come
together and make this thing? What is it going to have?
What became like the Rockefeller sound with these soul samples,
Like what's it gonna be and you know, we were

(09:54):
all on our heels for a long time and to
mals your point, like you know, it leaked, but for
a long time they were regarding it. That was even
Jay's like slogan at the time, like no leaks, no leaks.
They were steadfast that this wasn't happening. And that's part
of the way that they were. Yeah, and that's part
of the way they recorded it, going from country to country,
carrying the hard drives with them, So you know, a
lot of it was, um, you know, a precursor to

(10:15):
some of the things that we're talking about. It was
a really expensive album to record that. The album has
a lot of things about wealth, right and what we'll
get into sort of like what that means, those wealth things.
But it was just a really exciting time seeing both
of these guys who I Kanye covered him from the
beginning of his career. Jay obviously, you know, huge reverence
for him and and you know seeing him be this
shrewd businessman master rapper, but he kind of really melded

(10:38):
to two on this project, and um, yeah, I just
I love it, like I can't, like, just an enduring,
big love for this album. And I think people should
really appreciate what they did on it in that moment
where wash the Throne is being whispered about, and you
know they're recording here, they're recording there. Are you, as
a reporter at at MTV News, are you getting that

(10:59):
hard new type of sleep, Like it's like I gotta
I gotta be up, or it's I've seen Mike Dean
over or I've just seen a Virgil and so hoo,
so that must mean Kaye and and like what's that? Like, yeah, no,
It's funny because at the time with MTV, like um,
you know, like I was a reporter, like straight up,
like we had to compete with like people and CNN

(11:20):
Rolling Stone, and then I'm I'm competing with Sean and
like a good brotherly like I'm the Kanye to his
j C. And then like my then girlfriend who's now
my wife, Like she worked at Universal, so I'm like
trying to peace information with her and I have all
this information floating that. Like now, sometimes I have moments
where I'm like, damn, I forget what I reported and
what I didn't And sometimes in conversations I'll say stuff
and people are looking at me and I'm like I
was in public, um because years and I forgot but

(11:44):
at the time, like you know, it's just a lot
of like tension and anxiety of like, all right, I
got this piece of information that that that my then
girlfriend got from somebody. I could use it, but I
have to like figure out a way to like delay
me putting it out. Um, I gotta be smart with
it because I want to advance the story, and like
I gotta find some ship because like Shaw might cop
and break something, and and it's exciting when he breaks something,

(12:05):
but I also want to break something. I want him
to be like, oh you got me. Um. So yeah.
So it was actually when the album came out and
when I wanted to listening. But that point I became
an editor. I was the executive vetter at Double x L.
There's a lot less um that specific type of oppression,
and then it moved into like analysis and I'm glad
that like on the release of it, I was there
and I wrote a review and and then I could

(12:26):
look at the album, um big scale, not just like
piece by piece finding tidbits of information to break news.
But at the beginning of it, when it happened like
huge pressure from executives at MTV. Uh like gets something
find out. But MTV is also this place that does
programming and partners with artists, So it's like I could
do stuff that my executives want and you know d
Block knows this, like, but different departments don't want this

(12:48):
to happen. It's just a lot of like, uh, tough nights,
trying to like figure out where I can get in,
where I fit in, what stays? What what what what
what doesn't? On top of like all this excitement of
this project, see you and sure I have a good, healthy,
brotherly competitive relationship where it seems like Jay and Kanye,
well ahead, you better get at me. She's about She's

(13:11):
about again. But the difference that's that's a different shocking
to my wedding j J and Kanye. You know that
wedding exactly what's going? Yeah, I was my best man,
so shout out. I love that. So I think your
best man. I can't play with me. Mary, you could

(13:33):
be the flower girl? How about that? Okay, don't scare me, alright,
I would proudly be the flower boy. Just but no,
what we're saying. Jay and Kanye obviously have a complicated relationship,
which I think kind of plays into the story, which

(13:54):
is what makes us like the album even more. But
that being said, it's like, because the question is when
we ever see another album like Watch the Throne, It's
like no, because we don't really we don't have jay
Z's like you know what I mean, we don't have Kanye's,
who was like one of the best producers out in
hip hop. Ever, so yeah, ever, I agree, we should
definitely do that producer podcast by the way. But so

(14:16):
that being said, like a comparable one that I was, well,
do you that have came to my head? Where the
Travis Scott and Quabo one. I don't know why I
came to well, I have no idea what I came
because I was trying to be nice, but thank you? Next, yeah, next,
go ahead. What else came to mind? Hunter Jack? They
don't remember Hunter Your Jack? Oh man, okay, j Scott

(14:39):
right now to record hunch Jackie's gonna be like like
he's not going to remember Jack. It was like not
even you know when we said like, oh it was
a moment or it was hunch your Jack came, it
was a moment. Don't do that, Hunch Jack it was
a moment though it wasn't a moment. There was a minute,
but that's but that's that. But that's the things that

(14:59):
make Watch the Throne Watch It done, because it's more
than the collab album, right, it represents a lot of things,
and that leads there was we're trying to answer that's true.
Let's list out a couple of other collaborations that have
happened since that since go with your list, keep on
with your list, go off, go off, knocker, y'all just
attacked my first. Another one would be, Oh, Drake and

(15:21):
Future would have time to be alive. Now that's a moment, okay,
And it did a tour. Yeah, that's that's why. That's
a moment. Okay. So there's requirements to even be in
the league of this converse. You gotta at least have
a moment like they has to when you we say
a moment like that, your release has to like encapsulate
so much, right, Like, how did it affect culture? Did
things change after this? Were you know, I'm gonna be

(15:44):
hype man, facts keep on like you talk about what
a time came out at that at that precipice of
where like we were just about to get in the streams,
like we're just about to get in a stream, and
so for it to run it up the way it did,
then go on tour, then spawn like careers of their peoples.
It subments future as facts as an artist. If Watch

(16:05):
the Throne is attend, what is what a time to
be alive? What a time? Comes close because there's a
melting of a lot of like ideologies where like you
know Action Broughson and Alchemists like that. You know that's
a collab album now as in hip Boy, that's a
collab album. They're all dope and you know I bang
them a lot, but it's just a lot of things
that just they don't they don't have the ingredients where
it's like we're talking about Max to Mouse's point, these

(16:28):
moments like like when people I said, like if Wash
the Throne is attend and what's what a time to
be alive? Wash the Throne is a tent? But that's
a ten and a whole another universe. What a time
is a ten on earth? You know what I'm saying,
Like if it's a tend, like I'm given at facts
and I typically don't give albums tends. I just don't

(16:49):
believe in perfection. What a Time to Be Alive made
me believe in future made me believe in breaks capability
to touch somebody in like real time and make them hot.
So another project that drop collapse is The Carter's Everything
Is Loved Love. That another another ten on Earth really
another on Earth I do, but I'm always like caveat

(17:12):
and it's like the writer of me that wants to
explain stuff right where it's like because because that's part
of the trilogy, that's something different right where it's like
Lemonade four four four and everything is Love, like you know,
one day I'll write about sort of like the trilogy
of that and like what it means and like this
deeper story. So to me, it's like I exclude that
from this because it's it's a it's a period to

(17:32):
something to a long running sentence that's kind of ahead
of it of itself and even to like Max point
like keep on your back. It's my brother too, so Tom.
But like with with with What a Time to Be
Alive like that that it's it's close, but it's not
in the world to hit with it, right, And like
I joked with this off air, like I think Jay

(17:53):
Balvin and Bad Bunny like deserving that. And I'd love
to write an essay about like What a Time to
Be a Lot now, But but it's but it's true
because again, because they all are pushing something that didn't
exist before they came out, and there's traces of influence
that like and and and and and you wouldn't and

(18:15):
I joke with the atleast thing, but I mean, you
wouldn't get that if Watch Your Throne didn't come first,
if What a Time to Be Alive didn't come out?
And that came out because of Jay and Kanye, and
then Oasis came because of all them, right, And so
it's like you can trace all that influence back to
Jay and Kanye, you can give some of it to
Drake and Future, and then this thing exists where it
went again, like we talked about this early, like neighborhood

(18:36):
rap to county rappings, state wrapped the country wrap to
like global rap, right and and and and all of that,
and so these are things that like have these elements
that aren't just like Yo, these two dudes came together
and made an album right like, which is a lot
and it's really dynamic forces coming together but have movements
to find out, like what what's what are we gonna melt?
And what are we gonna do? And you said it

(18:57):
a lot with like with Drake, right, like Drake had
to get into a pocket it to get in the
futures world. But also like future had to come and
step up and step yeah, and and and they left,
they and you made a good point. You didn't say
it this way, but it's like they left that album
being different versions of themselves from doing it. Jane Kanye
did the same. Part of Kanye Struggles is like Kanye
is trying to figure out like who he is post again,

(19:18):
like who is he out post Watch the Throne. Still
He's still been trying to figure that out, from Yesus
to Life of Pablo to Yea to whatever don is
gonna be. He's still trying to figure that out and
and part of that is like a testament to his
greatness and like whenever for to Watch the thrown a lot.
It's a cliche, but I say, like heaviest the head
that wears the clown, This is a huge undertaking they
take and they have all those expectations post the release

(19:41):
of it, for every project, everybody's looking at them through
the lens of like y'all made this, it's something that's
more than a classic, right Like even you you don't
give ten out of tens and you give this album
a ten, give it a ten out of this world,
right like, and it meant something. And so now they
we carry that on them for each different, uh project.
You know, I think the I think it's very interesting
to look at especially when you like, like I said,

(20:03):
when you look at it, nobody needs Neither one of
them needed this, right And it's so interesting that you say,
Kanye still seems to be trying to find himself post
that album, which is so crazy because when you think
about it, he's had still huge success since this album,
but still can't really find that thing. And it's like,
is there, like if they're a deeper look that needs

(20:24):
to be had about like you know, uh, identity crisis.
Sometimes after such huge success, after like you know, you
had this moment, it's almost like, uh, it's almost like
I don't know how many people are nerds, but like
it's almost like endgame where it's you know, Captain America
did everything he did. He he this entire story arc

(20:45):
from you know, Captain America, the First Avenger to the Endgame.
It's like he did all of it. He saved the
world a bunch of times. He he had to sit
with the fact that he's here, the love of his
life is aging like he doesn't one more time? Right,
he does it one more time? It says, this is it.
This time, I'm gonna go live in my life. And

(21:09):
it's like, when does Kanye have that Captain America moment?
If he does right, where would that be? Where would
he go back? Where that would that infinity Infinity Stone
or that time We'll take him back to where he
could say from here, I live in my life because
it's like, you know, it's bigger than just music. It
was one thing if you're just having a career identity crisis,

(21:30):
but this is something that seems to spill into his life,
his mental health, his family. It's haunting. Yeah, that's the
perfect word for it. So it's like, yeah, so when
you said that, that's why I just automatically I'm like, well,
where does he go back to fix it or where
does he say it's donda it right as we see um.
A few weeks ago, he rented out the Mercedes Bins

(21:52):
are Stateum in Atlanta, Georgia. Did the listening shut the
world down for a moment once again another moment, But
it's not like the world is stopping when Kanye does
this because we really want to hear this new music.
It's kind of just like it's like just the thing
to do, because where did that line? I agree with you?
I agree with you to a point, but I would

(22:12):
ask where that line right? Because then here's a line
of people coming back who just want to hear it, Like,
I mean, we all want to hear it, but it's
not like I don't know. It's not like we Kanye
had just done so much to the culture that the
relationship is like it's kind of like the boy who
cried with It's like I care, but it's like I
don't care as much as I used to before. Could

(22:32):
you keep learning me? So I don't know. And then
again like he's going through this divorce with Kim, he's
taking shots there like I don't really want to hear
that on a gospel album. I actually don't want to
hear a gospel album from Kanye. I want to hear
another That's what we're putting on there. Oh that wasn't confirmed.
That's what we're putting on anybody here. I like that
he's searching for something that has like remnants of gospel.

(22:56):
And so he talked a lot about like this idea
of self worth and value, right, like you know we
all self conscious. I'm just the first to admitting, right,
And you could you could take that in parallel that
from each of his albums he had something about like
identity and valor and what he was trying to fight
for for acceptance, him being sort of the black sheep
of the rock and you know, and Watch the Throne
magnified that with Jay because Jay put something in you know,

(23:19):
Ham came out first, and people didn't That's not what
people wanted, but it's it's it was enough. But people
didn't want these two coming together on a Lex Luger
beat just kind of like fronting and rapping. And so
then they got retooled into having something to have more
purpose towards it, right. And the funny thing is, like
it was it was so set up for Kanye, and
he does it in parts, but like Jays consistently and

(23:40):
Jay flipped his script and and Jay really that's this
is the start of the jay second half of that
would Yeah, that's what. And so it's like with Kanye,
it's like he you know, in this album he had
moments where he was finding it New Day Murdered of Excellence,
he really hits it and and you know, this is
the thing that we're looking for. And so with with
with Jesus, it didn't happen. He had moments when he

(24:02):
was trying to get to it. But like his lyrics
are also getting shallow and shallow. It's just like stress
my hand. Let's take a quick break and we'll be
back with the what hip hop questions, legends and lists.
Let's talk about the album and what your favorite songs on. Specifically,
Otis was the next single to talk about that. What

(24:22):
happened when Otis came out? Once again? Another moment, right
you talk about Otis? Talk about a moment you talk
about you know, whatever our relationship is now, whatever our
adverse adverse relationship is now. Song flex dropping Otis twenty
times when that radio station was the what was falling up,

(24:45):
but he was still the guy at that time slot
and it was still it just couldn't do things like that.
You couldn't have to be somebody to do. To have
that record in your hands shows the type of relationship
you have with this game in your place. So for
him to run that back, I'll never forget it. I
never forget laughing my ass off sitting in front of
the radio when he tells me, He's like, I want

(25:06):
you to go into the nearest corner store put your
hand in the reg so that's your money. Now, I'm
like what. And then you listen to olders and it's
just like you just it's the It was kind of
like what I was talking about before, what you're writing
as a successful person. It's like you hear them coasting.

(25:28):
They are coasting over this sample, the beautiful oldest writing sample.
You call the song oldest No no No, and it's
just like WHOA. I never heard anyone do this with
hip hop before, where once again you're using voices at
points of percussion that no, no, that's the beating. So
when you hear you're like, whoa. And then to hear

(25:50):
them work in the pockets. But I think one of
my favorite lines, one of my favorite lines is uh,
Kanye when he says sophisticated ignorance, I write my curses
to cursive and it's just cursive, you know. It's the
way they're punching out of these uh for the eight
bar stands, And you're like, what the funk am I

(26:11):
experiencing right now on the radio? Right? This is still
in me experien anything on the radio. And it was
like the moment where I'm like I would here say,
I'm like, yeah, I can't wait to hear us again.
Lucky thing he's playing it again, So like that's really
like that me personally. That just reminds me in that
moment of how I fell in love with hip hop,

(26:34):
sitting in front of this box that has noise coming
out and saying I have to find a way to
be a part of this somehow. Oh this's what was it? Like? What? What?
What was it like? Interesting? In some ways it may
that's not the point I want to make, but but
in some ways it may be our last sort of
collective analog hip hop experience in that regard, like the
radio and and and waiting for it and not just

(26:56):
like on demand and everything you know, preceded streaming dominance.
But um no Otis. I like Otis so much because
it represented a reset to the whole project and injected
a purposefulness towards everything, right, Like you know we talked
about ham and that that him. I mean they executed
it well right, like that act and that's a lot

(27:18):
with jay Z stuff, and you give this a fabulous changes, right,
and so it's like people didn't want to hear like
them top level execution, Lex Luger, that's not what they
expected when like what it's called watch the Throne, We're
coming together, referred to us as the throne for all this,
Like they didn't meet the conventions of like what people
were expecting. And so then Otis comes. They reset the
sound right classic like New York Ship sample, but it's

(27:41):
chopped difference your point, right, just using it freely audaciously, right,
And then they they introduced who they are on this project. Right,
I got five passports. I'm never going to jail jay Z.
That tells you everything he's done criminally, empire to to
to business wise to this, He's I'm untouchable. I've extend
it to this peak. Right, Connie, We're talking a lot

(28:02):
of the gospel stuff, right, I made Jesus walks. I'm
never going to happen. I know, immediately who each of
these guys are. They reset the sound with Otis and
what it's gonna be the video precursor to Black Boy Joy, right, Uh,
the performance on MTV. We're We're gonna and that we're
making Blue Ivy the Royal Baby. Right, We're making you
care that we're doing this announcement and and that's a

(28:23):
precursor to everything with this project because they the whole project,
they're trying to recenter this idea of the black experience
right and made in America is so powerful at the
at the end of that because that's literally we took
you through this whole album, and now this is a
new American history, made in America. And then Jay brilliantly
makes at the festival, and then he does it brilliantly
in Philadelphia where the Constitution was written. Right. And so
it's like when when we were talking about when we

(28:46):
were talking about this in the in real time, like
people be like, you know, um, I don't think Jay
is doing all that. When has he not done all this?
When has he not put all this thought and all
these devices into things? Right? And now it's the thing
that we always talk about, right, centering blackness right, and
and oh this in a lot of ways did that
three dimensionally right? Like that in positions Jay and Beyonce

(29:07):
is the Black Royal family, right, this is our birth announcement.
The video, they could have been mean mugging, Oh it's
doing all this Jay with the froggy lip all that
instead black boy Joy right, hashtag black boy Joy still
now millions of millions of photos right. And the way
they reset the sound, it was a complete reset, and
it's probably the most important record on the album. And
it was something about that video with them deconstructing that call,

(29:28):
like even I don't take it more like I've never
looked at as just oh, this is stunting. No, this
is your idea of fun, this is your this is
the system, this is white supremacive, this is your idea
of you know what it means to win or this
is what. No, we're changing that and so we're gonna
take this car apart and then with a joy right

(29:49):
it all around this fucking peer. We don't know what's
gonna happen. There's gonna be a flamethrower, Like, we don't
know what's gonna happen, and we're still gonna be dressed
in fucking y's open like it was just whoa right,
and it's like experienced nothing like this before. And that
was the running at least for me, that was just
one of the running themes that kept showing itself over

(30:10):
and over. In that point, you can make a documentary
on each song. Each song has a discourse like this
then this attached and means something, so they be listening
and if I see it on netflick and be tighter.
The song for you that do you have any memories
of d stories? There a song for you that really

(30:31):
speaks out to me. Oh, this the music video. I
remember watching that on TV and like, damn no, this
is lit and they had the flag in the background
tow of them. That was a moment also. But to me,
my favorite song on the project is No Church in
the Wild. I mean, I mean the way and it's
the intro, but just the way to beat hits like
everything about it. Yeah, Frank Ocean coming in, That's that's

(30:53):
my favorite song. It also felt like once again going
back to Marvel, like you know where Marvel gives you
these like fun Easter eggs and you don't put it together. Well,
they give it the East rag and you kind of
like know it because you knew already right where these
things is. It's a culmination. So if you're listening, you'll
get it right, You'll get the East dereg So it's
like when I hear No Church in the Wild, I'm like,
oh ship, oh oh no, this this is a different

(31:15):
this is a different sound free and you could do
this then know then know you could do this. I
want to take it back. I don't want to get
off some of my like No Church in the Wild,
like that Jay's first bar. Right, it's such a precursor
to a lot of stuff on the album, right, like
blood on the Mausoleum floor, right, and it's like it's
a it's gonna be a battle, right uh. And then
it's like Thanksgiving this disguise as a feast. Right. You

(31:38):
could attach those things to the jungle, right. And in
other songs that come away, he's where he's literally deciding
we're going to fight the system, right, and what comes
after this album right hashtag new rules. Then he decided,
like now that I've centered the story, I want to
rewrite some of these things, like No Church in the Wild.
It's literally protecting you like that there there's we are
like it's literally like Father left for giving from my

(32:00):
sins because we're going in to fight, right And and
to me, it's like it's such a purposeful and I'll
keep saying, it's like it's that this album is so
purposeful from track to track to track, and it's such
a purposeful start to this album that to me, it's
just so amazing that like they're literally about to fight
the cast system, right, They're about to fight this thing
that's told uh black people that your experience is over

(32:23):
here or it's lesser than other. And Jay never plugged
in and away before where it's like I'm looking at
systemic things right, Like before his neighborhood wrapped, My neighborhood
was this way. I had no choice, I made my decisions.
I so cracked right, And then he talked about like
those skills helped him do that. It was still very
like self centered with his narrative. This he changed that
he wants systemic, he want big, he want wide, And

(32:45):
it's interesting in like juxtaposed with Kanye, Like and Kanye
is different, right, He's the Midwest church. He's looking at
it like personal accountability it's really some like Marcus Garvey,
w DWU boys ship records like they're doing together, you
know what I mean. And so they're trying to tell
this Black American story through different perspectives. And and you
hear because because then on the Church in Wild, Kanye's

(33:06):
like Sunglasses and Adville. It's way different than what Jay's
talking about. But Kanye is still like peak, right, Jay's legacy.
They're looking They're even at two different phases. And so
this whole album is this tension um trying to do
it and you just hope it binds and screws tighter
and tighter, tighter, and you know you have something strong.
That's why you could do every every track like pick

(33:27):
another one like it's funny you said that, and then
we can move on to another track. It's funny as
you said that, because that was the exact way I
looked at it, where uh, we needed these two different perspectives.
Kanye is not a street nigger who told drugs and
margy and a lot of times. Whether we could we
could take this out of music, right, we could take
this to like socioh and it's supposed to It's like

(33:49):
you know, a lot of times people try whoever the
person is right, if you have people come together, everybody
trying like market to like the lesser than or the
tougher part. Right, like a bunch of guys out right now,
they'll see me and they'll be like, yeah, micause I
grew up. I'm like, well you did it, and it's
fine that you didn't. But we both want to see
better for black people. So let's talk about that, right So,
so to here, Kanye just stand so strong and he

(34:10):
didn't try and meet Jay where Jay was that. He
didn't try and be gang store, be the you know,
be this this autonomous druglow. He didn't do that. He
was sung glass and even last name man or whatever
you talk about over there, Jay. But yeah, it over
here's a lot different. And I really and I love
how Jay didn't try and be gordy Kanye. He he stayed,

(34:32):
He stayed in his pocket and kind stay in his
pocket and they were able to do it. I want
to move on to another record. Uh specifically, I want
to talk about uh New Day, New Day where they're
talking about this, uh, this lofty idea of fatherhood. Even
when Kanye, which could be some people look at his
fore voting. I just think, like, hey, try to survive.

(34:54):
Where he says, um, if I have a son, might
even make him vote Republican. So everybody knows they loved
white people. And people heard that at the moment like oh,
this is amazing. But then you know, as Kanye's uh
fall from grace uh with the media happened, people kind
of zeroed back in on that line too. I don't
want to just put on the media and now yes, um,

(35:17):
but they kind of like looked back at it and
was like, look, look, you're telling us he was doing that,
where I'm like, no, yeah, I don't think y'all listening
to that line. He said if I have a son,
I might make him be a Republican. So everybody knows
he loves ripe people. So he's saying, I'm growing up
in America where we're just looked at a ship. I
just want you to come home. I don't want my
son to be looked at it this radical person because

(35:39):
that made me my son may not come home how
he looked at it. You have you taught me how
you looked at it. I don't want to say you
have personally when I listened to it, I feel like
he was like that hole verse after he said, and
I'll make sure he don't leave his college girlfriend. That's
the next bar I like to me, I thought he
was pretty much talked about like his own regrets in

(36:00):
his life, and so that way he would make sure
his kid pretty much did what he wished he would
have did, which meaning he wished he was raised Republic
and he wished she would have stayed with Because in
that moment, Kanye was looked at that he's the guy
that said George which doesn't like white people. On the
middle of that Katrina support effort um. So I think
that was more regret. I don't think it was him

(36:23):
because when you're talking about parents, parenting has to live,
you know, it has to live like in this like
intersection right where it's like, I parent you the best
way I can parents, because there's an intersection of I
want to make sure you're a great human being, but
I also lived through some stuff and I don't want
you to have to have to walk through this, right
So it's all I think, what me and you're both

(36:44):
staying live in this intersection of him just you know,
wanting the best for you know, what would become his
two sons. Yeah right, four yes, four boys, two boys.
I think it's three daughter and daughters. Yea. She is
definitely look at me st in Chicago. Yeah, st is

(37:10):
the second. Yeah, it goes north, it goes Stag. That's
a st. West is the list name. But yeah, they're
starting name. They're sure. But you know, it's funny. That's
a good interpretation of it. I didn't take it that
way because he didn't have kids yet, and you you, like,
you know, when you have children, it changes your perspective

(37:30):
on things that you said in the past and going
forward and a lot of those things that you're you're
saying because you have a kid, right like and so
like Kennie didn't at the time. So I took it
more so as um this value proposition of what he's
looking at for, like respectability to politics. And I think
you could tie that down into some like like his
voice change, right, Like now Kanye talks in this real

(37:52):
Ellen Couch voice. I can't even do it. Well, let
me know how he doesn't, but it's like he does.
So it's like he does that. Um uh, you know
this idea of vote Republicans, So it likes white people,
and so it's like to me, I think you can
draw a lot and again, like I look at this
album like Jays looking at things systemically, like Kanye is
very much like drawing from his church experience right where

(38:16):
it's like you know, self accountability, and he's trying to
he's addressing this pocket of like, um, you know, maybe
this is the right way to live and not run
into some of the problem to your point, to run
into some of the problems that I had to create,
some of the regrets that I had. Even when he
says and get caught up with the group is in
the whirlwind and I'll never let him ever hit the telethon.

(38:37):
I mean, even if people are dieing in the world
ends right like you talk however, you want to talk
about Kanye Now, when Kanye did that that in that line,
that line, and to your point, I'm sorry, I want
you to finish this point, but I want to say this,
I'm agreeing with you so much, like the people put
so much weight into the Republican line that line, but

(38:58):
he said right there, it's so the wrecked and so
cutting and it's so personal, like he's really like ripping
his heart open. But in a way that's like wider
than himself, right, And then in the album, I didn't
think he went so wide on every song, but the
moment he did it, that's the line like continue, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry to say we're we're literally on the same

(39:19):
on the same line. Because when he's saying that, it's like,
what when Kanye did that, you say what you want?
People eyes were now on what the fun is going
on down there? In Katrina? He said, even if people
are dying in the world's end, he's not gonna let
his son do that because when he did it the
Ship Show, he had to deal with coming out of that.

(39:40):
So now son don't. So he said, even and that
he's saying, remember how many times? How many times have
we heard him talk about his mom being being a
product of the sittings? And then that raised a rebellious
of a radical spirit in him. So I know my
son's gonna have the radical experience my grandfather had and
my mother. I have that four generations. I know myself

(40:02):
gonna happen. But I want you to shut up and
sit down because I don't want you to deal with
all of this. Even in that it's saying oh, this
isn't worth it, right, all this success and the Mason March,
and I love that it's called New Day because it
figurtively it was a new day, right, So the influence
of social media, we were just starting to feel that
when he did the v M A stunt and and

(40:23):
tell U Swift, like it was everybody could now weigh in.
With the Katrina everybody at the teleton, everybody could weigh in.
And so he's literally faced like arrows from the whole
country where it's like everybody has something to say. And
so it's like now we talk about this idea of
like cancel culture, and like nobody ever really gets cultured canceled,
but like he dealt with things where it's like this

(40:44):
is new, this is new to feel this way, to
be squared up in the in the scope of everybody
in this way like it was scary, and and that's
that's that's part of the trauma. Those are just as
traumatic experiences that he went through with everything else that
that he keeps going through, whether it's things with his family,
is his his wife, his car accident, like so it's
trauma repeats itself in his life as a way of

(41:07):
re Pina, and he has a way of embracing it
and not running away from it, right Like a lot
of people would shot who would talk about getting into
a car accident Me to Joe Wired, who would wrap
through that right? Um, like your mom dying. Like there's
so many things that trauma has this like weird relationship
with Kanye where he doesn't run from it where most
people would most people like, I'm not dealing with this,

(41:28):
like I'm a celebrating you, like when our artists put
it into music speak. So I have another line I
really loved from this song. Jay Z opens up his
SI verse. Sorry Junior already ruined you because you ain't
even alive. Paparazzi pursuing you once again, he doesn't even
have it. I think Blue Blue Day just announced blue
um so that means so roomy are nowhere thought about

(41:52):
being happening. But the fact that he's saying, like listen,
it's it's like this. I don't know if the word
repeat sense it's right, but there's like this, there's this
weird guilt that you hear over and over within this
song with Jay and Kanye when they're talking about these
kids like man I did a lot of winning and

(42:12):
it felt good. But this is gonna screw over my
kid in the long run, right because because the world
is an evil place, you gotta bring them into it
and not to mention their celebrities. So now they got
to deal with paparazzi. Like you said in hard, that's
a good boy. Actually murder taxcellence and that's where that's

(42:36):
why I was two part documentary, so talk about that.
No murder excellence is so you set it up and
just going to murder the excellence is um really like
the the peak point of this like album R and UM.
Like you said something earlier when you were talking about um, uh,

(42:58):
you know their difference is Kanye and Jay are so different,
you know and j even he doesn't address dumb, but
he's like you know, or what up? Blood? What up?
Because it's a black I love us and and so
and again he's he's elevating sort of like the he's
again he's trying to center the black experience. Right, it
doesn't matter if you're over here, doesn't matter over here,
we all black. This is the story is about. And
um yeah, I mean I just just over and over

(43:20):
even the way like again we were talking about the
samples and generationally how things connect. When he's like I
arrived on the day Fred Hampton died and like the
way that like the choir kind of comes in and
you know, really it's just multiplied. So it's like he
knows the end of the story. So right now, I'm
going to celebrate my post demise, right like I'm not
going to be safe, like we're going to do this,

(43:41):
and it's just it's it's I hear that song on
the right day, in the right moment, I might like
just shed like a tear. It's it's just so right left,
it's left eyes right right here is paying right right? Yeah,
I might pound my chest, y'all do change. And Kanye again,

(44:03):
he's talking about what's happened in Chicago, like genocide, right,
Like Kanye really meets j in this song, and it's
I can't I couldn't pick who I like better performance
in this song because to me, like this song is
that they both bought their A game. The beat change
so exciting throws us all. The beat change is different,
the quality of what they're saying. The potency still stays

(44:23):
to say, it doesn't bring down anything like I think
that this is incredible. It's funny you said, you know,
you get to something and that sparked, uh this this
thought in my mind. When they get to this song,
I feel like they found it whatever you know, because
it's but but it's also a movie, right like this
they're hitting climb because after this then they have hum

(44:46):
made in America and then um, you know who's gonna
stop me? Wh're gonna stop? And then made in America. Right,
So it's like this this ism readings and climbing because
the whole so it's this has this is the bank robbery. Yeah,
this is the bank robbery. This them infiltrated in the
Carter and New jack City. This is however you want
to put it, This is you know, pay them full.

(45:06):
This is uh Ace getting robbed and realizing like, okay,
this is not my life. That whatever climax and whatever movie.
This is when the Titanic hits the iceberg. This is
that moment. This is what it sounds like, right, and
you get this marriage of them, neither one of them.
I would love to know, like you said, I would

(45:27):
love a documentary on this because I would want to
know what corner of the I would want to know
everything about the writing project that went into this, because
don't tell me you were in kids and Hove was
in fucking he was in Tribeca. No, no, I want
to know you motherfucker's had to be in the same
room and Hove had to have you know. I was
watching the documentary at d Blocks in US and I've

(45:48):
been a J fan forever, Like just quote on my
body from Jay. But it's always very interesting and always
very sobering when you watch him create, right. It was
him doing one of the puncheons, right, and he's there's
no pad. You're watching him record this and write this
with no pen, no paper, and you're like, what you

(46:11):
just mumbled for a bit and he sat with it,
and then you came back and you finished off that
line and you wouldn't did it again. So now when
I hear this black Excellent, I'm like, what the fun
was going on in your head? Or when Knnie? I
love this line where Kinde where Knnie opens up verse
two and he says, I'm from the murder Capital where
they murdered for capitol, where they've all He's already him
and J have already played with this on Lucifer right,

(46:33):
but he says, I'm from the murder capital where they
murdered for capital, heard about at least three killings this afternoon,
looking at the news like damn, I was just with
him after school, no shot class behalf the school, got
a tool. Plus I could die and I could die
any day type attitude. You talk about that and then
you look at the Chicago drill sing that's huge. It's it's,

(46:54):
it's and that's the thing. He dropped the ball and
he stayed with it because Wrapp, it's like he dropped
something and you come back, you reference you and fly
whatevery movie. He stayed a line after line, like bars
after bars. He stayed with it. You can't say you
don't know what's going on in Chicago if you if
you heard that, just it just hits there. Not long.
He's in and they get everything. Jay starts off. It's

(47:15):
a memory of Dan Roy Henry right, police shooting, police
shooting young black kid twenty years old by white officers. Right,
And it's like before that, Jade through a support around
like Shawn Bell's family. But he did it quietly right
then in public. This is him coming out and it's
now we talked about this all the time, purposeful purpose.
We had enough of this and and again this is
the robbery. They set it up right, no church in

(47:36):
the wild, New Day, everything, everything is leading up to
this track. There's no mistaking that this is the track
listing where it's supposed to be, because it's all leading
up to like we had enough of this, like this
is it, this is this is We've broken this cast system.
And this is why he exits this album hashtag New Rules,
the thing with Ja and this like like you said,
and this being the precipice of his second act, realizing

(47:58):
that this is bigger than the Christal is bigger than
the business. This is you know, how am I going?
And this is just me thinking for Jay, how am
I going to live past all this stuff? Right? How
am I gonna live past the plaques? I'm gonna live
past the diamond sign? How how it's by living with
the people, right, And it's by getting like this is

(48:19):
somewhat at the beginning of a soundtrack to a movement
right there, like yeah, we could talk about Kendricks. We're
gonna be all right? And you know all these songs
that people sing in the streets when they're protesting. You
can't tell me these people weren't invigorated by Jay taking
this moment, Like, you know what, No, I'm not gonna
do it in quite no more purposeful. I'm gonna stand

(48:40):
up from the stand to all. I'm supporting this. This
is what murder the excellence is the beginning to me,
this is murdered excellence is the beginning of political rap,
or the resurgence of political rap that we So this
is just my take. People take out anyone. I don't
think we get a no name without murder the excellence.
He bag on us. Yes, in a way that Chuck

(49:02):
could never love. And that's important to know. It's in
a way that he can't and and and that's this
is the things that Jay gets credit for, but the
things he stumbles for too. And like I wrote this
issue of my newsletter where I said, um, the needle
that Jay's trying to thread, right because he you know
this album he talks a lot about wealth. And I
said earlier I would get back to this, right, but

(49:23):
again it's purposeful, right, Like, it's not just well for
the idea of building up something to floss. Right, he's
talking about wealth and because again it's like Chris Rock
says it, there's a difference between being rich and being wealthier, right,
And Jay's talking about amassing wealth and the rooms he
enters in and what it does. And now he sees
the rooms that like the rules that are happening, and

(49:44):
that's my bitch, Like he's right, like why is it
always like Mail and Monroe? Why are all these brawls
all white? Right? Because that trickles down to the education system.
And then we have this idea of beauty and what
it represents. And he's naming people and they're just as beautiful,
if not more beautiful, but we all But that's how
you get things like oh, that's an exotic look because
it's not centered right, it's centered on like Marilyn Monroe,
and so like on on this album, he's he's introducing

(50:07):
sort of like his fighting spirit, his way of being
chuck d But he has to do it different because
he's also doing it as a capitalist, right. And you
know the world has changed under his feet, right, where
now you have like Bernie Sanders movement, AOC Democratic Socialists,
and and they want this like redistribution of wealth. They
don't want anybody to have all that work. But Jay's like, yo,
I'm amassing it to do something with it, right, to

(50:29):
come in these rooms. And that's when he says things like, oh,
my presence is charity. It's not an arrogant he I'm
entering rooms and doing things that like nobody has before,
right Domino. Domino only go right, shout out to Will
shout out to Oh, like right, He's trying to make
it so there's more, but he has to enter that
room first. And there's a parallel to like Obama. There's

(50:52):
a parent like Obama. When you hear Obama and interviews,
what they always said, you got the power, you got
the power. Right, we need to organize and you need
to call these politicians. Right, he stopped being organized a
long time ago. Right, Because he also understands there's power
and him becoming the president. And he becomes the president,
and that's reflective. And again you could always bring it
back to Ja Ja lyrics where he's like when you

(51:13):
see me see you right, and he says it's in
the song, right when when when when you see me
you see you right? Because he wants to be that
avatar for this thing that he's trying to do and
again there's like three right, and that's where he gets
in trouble. It's a really fine line. He's trying to
threaten and he's gonna have stumbles right the nfl of
things right, and and it's tough, like you know, again

(51:36):
from a distance, who's who? Who are you trying to
help yourself or them or whatever? The weird thing with
cat but he's trying to do something. There's no blueprint
for it. He's trying to become that blueprint and murder
the excellence that it's like the first time he's putting
it on record, he's really going at it to your point,
like it's the start of something. But he's Chuck being
it in a different type of Chuck Chuck DS. Just

(51:58):
we already have a Chuck Dal we have. I'm gonna
not gonna be able to reach the people Jay's gonna
be able to reach, right, It's there's gonna be certain
guys on the street that's gonna hear Chuck D And
I like, you don't take that ship to funk up
the street, but you're gonna hear Jane Like perfect example
of that. We had been as a culture, as people,
we have been running around with this moniker of you know, oh,

(52:20):
that's the crab in the bathroom and I can't believe
you doing that, man, that the crab in the barrel.
What Jay said, he said, if you put crabs in
the barrel, you end up pulling down somebody just like you.
You're gonna put out He says, what a blood? What
up cause? And it was it was new for j
at the time. At the time, people thought he he
was washing J on every song, right, because Jay is

(52:42):
not doing the normal thing that he does, right, He's
he's drawing this wider lens and it's so like his
contributions to the project really age well, right because again,
like you said, it's it's it's it looks like a
blueprint for some of the things that you're seeing that
are going on now. But at the time it was
such a inverse for him and what people are used to,
and so people are looking at it, like Kandie said,

(53:03):
like sunglasses and advil should just fly. Uh, you know,
he's he's controlling the production. Uh this aesthetic right with
with the richard of Carlo Tici like designed the Balenciaga
for the tour, like it really looked like Connie was
driving a lot of stuff. But when they reset from
Ham into doing this, like I mean, Jay really rewrote
the book really because if not, you just have this

(53:24):
like you have this like just very big, bodacious, audacious,
uh like avant garde thing, but without Jay saying, hey,
let's talk about this. Let's CRETI. Hey, you talk to
me about this. Go deeper, right, And I just always
felt like that was the thing being said in the studio,
like after him comes out, Jay's in the studio and

(53:45):
he's just like, yeah, it go deeper, you know, whatever
it is, go deeper before we move on the next topic.
We'd be remiss if we didn't talk about Paris. It's
funny when that song came out that there was a
very specific writer that I remember being like, oh, they're
just talking about bawling again, And I was just like,
you're the completely missing the point, right, And so it's
like when when when on Paris, when Jay says, um,

(54:06):
you know, like this ship weird, we ain't supposed to
be here, but since we're here, like let's play fair
and to me like that again, like its instructional and purposeful, right,
nets could go it doesn't matter right, because if we're
talking about let's play fair, Like if I'm an owner, right,
what are we talking about? Because y'all, y'all trying to
clown j for like the record in the nets, you know,
the Redskins, the Cowboys, they suck year after year. But

(54:28):
that is wealth to be a team owner, right, And
there's only just a finite amount of team owners and
the influence that they have, right, Like they have lobbyists
working for them, lobbying against them, Like it's just it's
just crazy. And so it's like with with the idea
of Paris and they're talking about let's go crazy and
ball whatever. To me, that's blowing. They're blowing up the
system and and everybody's talking about it like, oh, they're

(54:48):
just bawling for for no reason or whatever. It's like
in my view for Double x L, that's specifically what
I'm talking about, Like the cast system, they're literally like
blowing it up, and where do you think of it?
Like Paris? Right, Like we weren't even supposed to be here.
It's just it's just so purposeful. And I loved it
like that became, uh the anthem attached to the album,
and he did like you know, I wanted the kickoff.

(55:10):
I went to the Kickoff in Atlanta. I remember they
did it like three or four times, and we're like, yo,
that's crazy. By the time they got the l A,
they're doing it like twelve times in a row and
bringing it back And this isn't you at home listening
to your radioff, this is doing something whatever, like yeah,
this is this is uh I paid to be here, Yeah,
I paid to be here. I'm watching them and it
was just wild. And I think that, um, I just

(55:31):
think that that's such a underrated song. And it's interpretation, right,
we love it for like the bomb beast that it has,
but it's not it's it's it's it's you know, there's
a trojan horse element even in the fact that they
used that that clip of Will Ferrell. Yeah you know
what I mean. The people, the people going it's like, oh,

(55:52):
y'all seeing what's going on here? Like are you catching
what's going on here? The record that you'll probably gonna
look at me like, oh, this is just a single. No,
you hear what he's saying. We're running this ship. That's
how we're gonna do it. And another time, another record
which I mean, obviously we're gonna look it gets looked
at a little differently because it was such a big single,

(56:13):
But it's another record where both of them show up
and refused to back down, and I have its time.
We talked about like the Paras soccer team and this
identity of blackness and being Parisian, right, and when they
win the Parisian when they lose their black immigrants, right.
So again it's purposeful to have like dumb in Paris,
like this idea of blackness in Paris and what it means. Like,

(56:35):
I know a lot of people, like the listeners are
probably like they're not putting all like you're putting too
much into it. I don't think I'm putting enoughing. Honestly,
we're probably doing to deserve somewhere or something just because
we're not them. Yeah you know what I mean. So
we're picking up the little bit to them. Oh I
called did you that the birth of That's that's that's

(56:56):
a that's a good question. Um. Before then, I think
Craig was the thing before. I mean, we gotta find
whever it's from. It probably was wherever Kanye heard it was.
Probably Yeah, hey, King, you got anything on that was
cray a thing before for that ship was Craig. No, yes,

(57:17):
it was. They should say Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig.
Craig was the thing. That's how black people do Craig.
That's how black people, That's how you know somebody sick
in the head like a little Craig c Yeah, they're
a little Craig. Watch out for them, a little little
seven thirty you watch out the look Craig Craig seven.
Explain where did their relationship go wrong? I mean you

(57:41):
go back to like record like Big Brother where Kanye
is where a big brother just old to jay Z.
But you listen, you're kind of like any I'm a
little like I'm not that guy. I'm not the little
bro like respect me. You didn't even really want me.
They wanted me, you know what i mean. Like and
now I'm under you because I mean, the descent is
best for my career. But it's like I'm the one

(58:03):
that made you, know what I mean, I'm the one
that made the soundtrack to your career. You know you're
jay Z, but I'm I gave you Izzo, and I
gave you this and I gave these other artists this
to two. So I think that there's that and that
never left. But then there's also this paradigm where you're
like you you watched the Animal channel to uh after

(58:28):
a while, the the the young lion has a choice.
You run off and you create your own pride, or
you have to kill this. You have to kill the
big line. And he definitely ran off, and but I
think he did some biting. He tried, he did some
it's it's there's it's such a complicated relationshi, because they
walked into it not on equal footing. In this album,

(58:50):
they had to become equal footing. But then Jay also
come and dared it away after it didn't start the
way it was supposed to. And then Big Brother is
so interesting because you know he has real gripes, but
you know, the Chris Martin line the cold Play. Then
he gives an interview co yeah, then that too. Then
he gives an interview a couple of years later and
he's like, yo, Chris Martin was my collaborator. Like that's

(59:10):
Jay's man. Like Jay has double dates with him and Gwyneth,
like you know what I mean? And and you know,
I think sometimes that's that intersection of like personal and
professional and you know, we'll never know a lot of
this stuff, Like on speculation, we could be like, oh,
it was the um and you know, Kanye said that
they didn't come to my wedding and that hurt me
obviously at the time, Jay and Beyonce were going for stuff.

(59:32):
Kanye's like, but you wouldn't, you would make it happen.
So you know, there's a lot of moving pieces that
we won't know because to your point, like we weren't
in the room and we don't know. But it was
not a natural pairing and that was part of the
the beginning we talked about it. That was part of
the excitement. It was not a natural thing. They walked
out of it, and certainly at the end of the
if they didn't walk out of the release being equals,
at the end of the tour they were equals, I mean,

(59:53):
of course, and that changed the relationship right, Like, but
even even if you don't think it on Merit, they're
doing a whole chore. It's all joint and everything. Everything.
It's like even if Kanye hadn't made it on Merit,
just the appearance of everything happening is joint right after
after the album is done, we don't know who did what,
like we just know they're on each record and they
have this, so it's like they exited as peers and

(01:00:15):
then they have to recalibrate their relationship. That's difficult that
you know they're brothers, but they're not real brothers. One
from Chicago, once from New York's different codes, Jay's older,
Kan's young. It's so many complicating figures, and some of
it's natural, like to your point with the whole lieon metaphor,
some of it is natural like that, like you know,
I mean the comment earlier like uh Me and Shara,

(01:00:36):
like Kanye whatever and Jay, but he came to my
my my wedding, he's my best man. Is there's not
points where like we hadn't talked for a couple of
months for things that were differences or not or perceived
or not like that's my brother. We didn't grow up together,
so sometimes our filters incorrect that way. We're looking at things,
you know what I mean, And so it's just such
a really hard thing to kind of like connect and

(01:00:57):
look at it and see how they felt upon a
side saying maybe it's just inevitable. That's and that's where
I'm at. I think it's inevitable, right like I think
it's almost and it's always very weird, um, which is
let me say this, so like right now where we
see the Dirk's and the little babies where Dirk has
been out for so long technically little babies like yeah,

(01:01:20):
you're like a little man, but they're so close an
age where it's like, but in this game, I'm Dirk,
is Dirkyo is the big home, you know what I'm saying.
So now you bring it back to where Kanye you
were in the crowd at the Hard Knocked Life tour.
Jay's never gonna be able to see you, no matter

(01:01:41):
how successful you get, He's never gonna be able to
see you as an equal. That's the problem that right
because you Jay c this way doesn't change who you
are exactly are you are for you got here and
you can change. But that's the top that's just the
top layer. You get what I'm saying. So it's like,

(01:02:02):
so now it's like, are you going to allow this
to like bleed into everything else? And no, that's what
I'm saying. I'm like the question I'm asking that question,
like a bigger and like it's just like a more general,
more vague sense, because it's like, that's what happened. Well,
now that jay Z is on the new project, it
looks like so it seems I mean, you know, it

(01:02:22):
seems like things are changing. A lot of good things
happen when you get from moneyfaf that Kardashian ring. So
so it looks like get your life back. Kanye is
coming back. Are we taking him with open arms or
we're gonna give him a hard time? I think for
the hard time he gave us. But so that's the
weird thing, right, I think because I was like I

(01:02:43):
was hitting my stride as a media personality, so I
was in a lot of public conversations about Kanye during
that time. Um, and I think even in my brain,
I think I had got the two convolute I conflated
to two where Okay, you're making these like dumb political
state ments, but that's not who you are as a person.
I mean, sometimes that can be, but I don't know

(01:03:05):
that to be you as a person, and it really
shouldn't have No what do you think the music? Who
do you think he is as a person? I don't know.
I don't know, and like the first three projects then
the like it's like the phases as one of you
guys spoke about it. Yeah, it's like him trying to
find himself. Like the first three projects, that's one version
of Kanye. Then the two after that, the solo ones

(01:03:26):
eight A eight and Dark Twist and Fantasy does another
version of Kanye. Then we get Jasus, which is with
the Travis, a whole different version of Kanye. So it's
like who who is kind That's the thing. Who you
were in junior high school is not who you were
in high school, not who you were in college the
same not who you are now. You know you're girded

(01:03:51):
by a student of your morals, right, but your outlooking
perspective definitely, especially for Kanye. What makes it different for
him than for us is the world around him changed
to the sound and the way that people look at him.
And that's the thing about like with the wealth and
things that does Like I would say, this is about
puff like what happens like, uh, when when the world
bends to your will, it's crazy, how do you adjust

(01:04:11):
to that? Right? Because I guess like the evolution of
Jay compared to the evolution of Kanye, even though I
know Kanye contributed to the evolution of Jay, but just
as like you know, now Jay's giving us four or
four fours and stuff like that, where it's like, you know,
Kanye kind of came into the game already giving us
such high quality and projects. Yeah, and then too now

(01:04:31):
he's you know, I need every bad bitch up and equalox.
I need to know right now, like now he's doing
ship like that. So just the way the way they evolved,
I guess is like it's different. So that's why you
know McCole does false prophets. It's so impactful because it's like,
damn yeah, I feel that perception from then to now.
Even in that right I look at Cold, I'm like, hey,

(01:04:52):
be careful, buddy, because right if I go back and
I tell in two years, they're gonna look at you. Now,
let's set something really important where you're talking about like
the comparison and contrasting their evolution of J and and
for for J it was an awakening. Kanye came into
that way and Mouse said that a lot earlier to
like who his parents were, and he injected a lot
of that into it. And you know, maybe the conflict

(01:05:13):
that a lot of us have with Kanye is that
we see like a d evolution of it happening, and
maybe it's hard, but again, and I'm doing a lot
of like to your point and to your point, but
we're seeing this in real time, and we're used to
seeing in real time for young artists, right, we see
what's happening in SoundCloud to they get to like the
DSP stage. We don't see this with like artists of
Kanye's ilk. And you know, I've I've pointed out like

(01:05:34):
when when the Life of Pablo came out and everybody's
like he's going crazy, he's changing this or whatever. I
was like, this is actually pure Kanye. This, this is who.
This is who I've seen for years, him being this way,
this obsessiveness over perfection, and you know, he's it's it's
hard to say where he goes because we put so
much on him, like musically and personally, we put so
much on him, and he's gone through things that people

(01:05:57):
didn't go through first, right, Like he's been canceled twice
in a way with we didn't have like terminology for it. Yeah,
and he's been buried twice and then you know, he
rebounded with my beautiful doctors and fantasy isn't like ain't
that enough? Right? Like? And so now it's like we
have these expectations, like you is he maga like he's
going to break through with Dande's naming it after his mother.

(01:06:18):
And that's all the stuff we're putting on him. And
you know, I don't know what he should do next.
I find it interesting him exploring um Gospel because maybe
there's something that he has to that he can't say,
that he needs attached to the Bible that will help
him frame things. You know, I don't know um And
and you know I've had a lot with him personally
and professionally, highs and lows, but more than anything, like

(01:06:41):
I like to go on record and say, like most
influential hip hop artist, musician probably culturalists of the past
twenty five years without a doubt, right and and he
deserves he's benefited, He's earned benefit of the doubt over
and over and over again. He steps over the line
over and over and over again, you know, to your
point and things that he's saying. So you know, it's
not on me to tell the artists what they do.
I'm just received what the artist does and critique it

(01:07:03):
and and and and analyze it. But you know, Kanye
is audacious, and I appreciate his audacious nous, and you know,
I want him to I don't want that light to
ever do. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's the
thing with him, right, Like like you just said, I
think he's one of those flames where you don't you
don't even just let that flame be. Right, if you
want to be next to the flame today, you go

(01:07:24):
near the flame. You don't you go over there, but
you don't mess with that flame. Kids today are very
lucky that none of their artists like talking right or kids,
because you would be like, oh god, this guy's an idiot.
We don't have that. We don't have that luxury because
we come from the time of where you had to

(01:07:44):
go talk to people and interviews and these people are
still big deals. So Kanyie talking. Do I agree with everything? No?
What I do agree with is he hasn't done anything
harmful to anyone. He's not, you know, and the bar
that help him getting people to for Republicans could have
been didn't but you didn't do that. Yeah, but there

(01:08:05):
was a threat we were scared of that it could
have happened that is harmful, But go ahead. I think
I think to like the thing that I have to
remind myself a lot with Kanye and and I think
we all have to do with like artists because especially
hip hop they're having longer careers, is to just have
grace towards them, you know what I mean, Like it's
a long career and not a lot of rappers had

(01:08:25):
put out this many albums and and you get to change,
and we still care, and we still care, and you know,
and just kind of having grace towards him and and
really being mindful of like even if I disagree with it,
and I'm publicly writing about it or to your point, Matt,
I'm doing it again mouse um being a meter personality
like speaking on it. It's like, you know, just to
have grace towards his circumstances life, his career. I may

(01:08:50):
disagree with it, but I don't have to body him
to do that. It's this music hap to be just
it should be the what? What's the what? So let's
answer the question was, watched it throw on the best
collab rap album? Yes? Yes, but I said it earlier

(01:09:14):
because I said it with an asterisk to me, like
the best almost undersells it, right, Like the best means
like it was dope. We spent this past like however
many minutes like talking about it more beyond dope, right, purposeful.
We keep saying this over and over again. And so
for me, like I feel like that under sells it.
To me, it's the most important claub album in the

(01:09:35):
past whatever years or if or ever, right, Like there's
a distinct um demarcation point of what hip hop was
before this album and after this album. And so if
I just say it was the best album, like you know,
any Cloup album could be the best, Like to me, like,
this is the most important, and I feel like that's
worthy of the recognition to your point, right, it's a ten,

(01:09:55):
but it's a ten out of space, it's a ten
out of this world. Like it's it's the most important
collab album to me ever made. Agreed, this is the
first time I've had everybody all on the same page.
We didn't agree with Lady Gaga and Tony Bennett put
out a collab album. Little Italy was like, Yo, let

(01:10:15):
me tell you d black, Like you know, like we
talked about like things that are are racist but aren't racist.
Pretty racist, that's pretty racist, Jason. So we appreciate you
pulling up, you know, chopping up with us. Um, you know,
going going there talking about the most important collaboration album

(01:10:35):
of all time. How can the people support where they
we they've heard us talk about this amazing newsletter happened?
What what? What? What is next? Yeah? No, so I um.
You can follow me on Twitter Instagram at Jason Rodriguez
j A Y S O N R O d R
I g E z um no. So, you know, my
newsletter is the thing you could find like day and

(01:10:55):
day out, week to week back seat freestyle. You can
check it out at newsletter Jason, my drinks dot info
um or Backstreet, back seat Freestyle, dot review dot co um.
You know that's the thing you can catch like outwardly working.
But you have other stuff that I'm working on. It's
longer lead time. I gotta show that I'm running at
a Spotify dope podcast that I think y'all all love,

(01:11:17):
So you know, pay attention. I think the announcement will
come by the end of the year. The show definitely premiere,
So follow me in my social so you can hear that.
Um So yeah, man, you know I I do it
for the culture in a way that UM was for real,
like I wear to my chest, not just like the
hashtag or the saying like you know, piece of a
king d block like you know, y'all know. So it's
been my pleasure getting a bill with y'all. Man, I

(01:11:38):
appreciate it. Appreciate you. Now, how are you feeling? We
just we just talk about the most important if my
collaboration of all times, and I feel great. Are you
gonna Are you gonna add any of these records into
your own? Yeah, it's only right the anniversary. Make sure
I respect the culture to you know under the Yeah here,

(01:12:07):
thank you Jason so much for coming. Seriously. Yeah, on
that note, we will see you guys next Monday, right here,
same day, same time. Well it's a podcast. We'll be
here every Monday till next time. Guys. Peace,