April 18, 2025 • 41 mins
The NATAL podcast, executive-produced and hosted by Gabrielle Horton and Martina Abrahams Ilunga, is an audio docuseries centering Black parenthood and reproductive justice in America. Since launching the show, Gabrielle and Martina have brought us deeply personal stories, sharing the lived experiences of Black women, gender-expansive people, and families navigating the reproductive care space. Through that storytelling, they not only educate their audiences and raise awareness, but they also push for real, systemic change in maternal healthcare—advocating for a future where Black families have access to care that is truly equitable and rooted in compassion. In honor of Black Maternal Health Week, they joined us this week to share a behind the scenes look at what it looked like to bring Season 3 to life.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for the special bonus episode of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation afterword from our sponsors. The NATO Podcast, executive produced
(01:17):
and hosted by Gabrielle Horton and Martina abrams Aalunga, is
an audio docuseriies centering black parenthood and reproductive justice in America.
Since launching the show, Gabrielle and Martina have brought us
deeply personal stories, sharing the lived experiences of Black women,
gender expansive people, and families navigating the reproductive care space.
(01:40):
Through that storytelling, they not only educate their audiences and
raise awareness, but they also push for real systemic change
in maternal health care, advocating for a future where black
families have access to care that is truly equitable and
rooted in compassion. Some of you might remember an episode
of NATO that we shared a while back. Well, today,
(02:00):
I'm thrilled to welcome Martine and Gabrielle back for this
special bonus episode where we dive into all the incredible
work that went into bringing season three of their podcast
to life. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TBG in session, or join us over in our new
Patreon channel to talk more about the episode. You can
(02:23):
join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.
Here's our conversation. Well, I am so honored to be
joined by Gabrielle and Martina today. I'm very excited to
chat with you all. So many of our community members
may know you from NATO. We did a feensw off
(02:43):
a couple of years ago and people likely tuned in,
But for people who maybe are not familiar and need
a little bit of an introduction, can you introduce yourselves
and tell us how NATO came to be sure?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Do you want to kick us off?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Gabrielle, I'm Gabrielle Horton, originally from Inglewood, California, the executive
producer and also co hosts.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Alongside Martina on n Needle is a podcast about having
a baby while black. I'm sure we'll get a chance
to sort of talk about how it's expanded, but I
really think about the show as a reproductive justice, a
series that helps the chronicle and document the memories and
experiences of Black women, gender expansive people and families and
(03:29):
your experiences navigating reproductive care.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
And I'm Martina Abraham's Ilunga. I'm based in Brooklyn, New York.
I'm co executive producer and host alongside Gabrielle.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And how would you both say that NATO has evolved
over the years that you've been doing it.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Hmm, that's a great question.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
I would say, you know, first, before we get into
how it's evolved, the one thing that's been consistent across
all three seasons, we ask everyone we talk to what
should care look like? What does care look like for
black birthing folks, for black reproductive folks in this country,
and the way that we've answered those questions has looked
differently each season. So we started off really wanting to
(04:14):
get a sense of, Okay, what does care look like
across the country, what are folks facing every single day,
How are folks navigating their care on their journeys to
trying to have a baby? Season one is really a
gumbo pot of stories from folks of different kinds of identities,
different kinds of circumstances, different age groups. And then season
two we wanted to go really deep into the experience
(04:38):
of folks who are navigating having babies, Black folks in
rural places, so we followed three families really closely on
their journeys. And then season three we kind of switched
up the format and even who we spoke to. Season
three launched last fall, and we were really thinking about
how has the Dobbs decision and the Supreme Court kind
(05:01):
of rolling back Roe v. Wade affect what care has
looked like, and so we wanted to talk to the
people who are on the front lines and doing this
work and fighting, and we featured the voices of eight
different advocates, different birth workers, folks who are doing organizing
work in conversation with one another, as they explored how
their work has changed or evolved before, during, and in
(05:25):
this case after, Roe v.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Wade.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
So our work has expanded based off of what is
kind of happening in the atmosphere, what is going on
in the country, what questions are people having, what voices
are we not hearing from?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Those are some of the things.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
That have guided the ways in which NATAL has expanded
in the last five years.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with everything Martinez said. I think
to add on to that, not only is this year
Natal's fifth birthday, fifth anniversary, but I think in terms
of thinking about how we've expanded, I think it's the
first season was really driven by, honestly, a deep fear
that we had about what we now sort of know
and is sort of named as a Black maternal health crisis.
(06:07):
We were hearing stories from friends of ours, We were
even hearing stories from loved ones parents about their own
experiences navigating care in the hospital system, all the things
that they didn't know, all the things that they wish
they had known, and sometimes in some cases the trauma
and even sometimes in their death experiences. So that really
fueled season one in many ways trying to find answers
(06:29):
to this thing that our Tina and I and our
production team we were afraid of as folks who hadn't
given birth but have had a myriad of reproductive care
experiences of our own. And I'd say that with each season,
I think what also guides is that we continue to
open ourselves up, like how expansive liberation can be right.
And I think when we think about reproductive justice, it's
(06:50):
not just like the pregnancy and childbirth and postpartum. We're
really thinking wholeheartedly and in conversation with families and providers
and birth workers who are thinking very expansively about liberation
in this way. So I think with each season, you
kind of get a chance to see us also kind
of step outside of our own fear, if you will,
(07:10):
to really start to reimagine what care can look like
and how we build care systems that work for all
of us. And yeah, so I think you kind of
see us grow as well with the season and try
to sort of guide those conversations in those ways as well.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
Yeah, And you see it in the ways that the
topics expand. Like season one, we really focused on people's pregnancy, birthing,
and postpartum. Season two, the storytelling began for each of
the parent storytellers that we featured really begin when they
were children. Now, what did you first learn about your body?
How did you first learn how to take care of yourself?
What were the lessons you received about care, about going
(07:47):
to the doctor, about your bodily autonomy? And then season
three was introducing, really for the not for the first
time on our show, but in this focused way, the
idea of abortion care and how we connect a border
care to the larger reproductive justice work that's being done,
and showing these connections between abortion and maternal health care
(08:09):
more broadly and how you know they're not isolated issues.
So I think that feeds into it. Yeah, you were saying, Gabby.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, And I know I don't have to tell you
to this parious time we find ourselves in history, and
you know, I think a lot about like black women
like you all doing this kind of work in this
kind of way at this time. And so you know,
how would you say your heart has been as you
continue to pour into this work, and how have you
(08:36):
been taking care of yourself giving yourself in this way?
You know, as you continue to show.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Up, Doctor Joy. That's a big questions, a heavy one.
We think about this a lot. We talk about this
a lot, and to be quite honestly, Martina and I
have cultivated a friendship over the past five years as well.
We started off as colleagues. But I think as we've
been developing our friendship, we have these conversations about how
(09:02):
are we caring for ourselves. I'll use an example from
last season, the season three that Martina reference, where we
focused on what does care look like for black families
after the overturning of Roe v. Wade and episode three
in particular, I share a little bit about my own
abortion story, and that was something that obviously came up
(09:22):
as we're doing our planning, we're having reproduction calls as
a team, how are we framing things. We're always trying
to sort of bring ourselves to the conversation in some ways,
not focused on us, but making sure folks know that
we're having our own experiences as we're also asking folks
to be vulnerable and share their experiences with us. And
that was a difficult time. I did not know how
to communicate how challenging it was to revisit my own
(09:46):
abortion that happened over a decade ago, and I really
struggled in silence with it. As much as we sort
of preached this openness and honesty and vulnerability, I was
struggling to really show up honestly with my team with Martina,
And so end of the season, when we had our
sort of big reflection and debrief, we talked about that,
and then Martina and I had even further conversations what
(10:07):
does it look like to care for ourselves in the
midst of doing this work, and so, you know, I
think we think a lot about that. You know, obviously
there's examples I can share, taking walks outside, stopping for
deep breaths, getting back into therapy, just thinking about ways
that we can sort of build the sort of larger
tool kit for ourselves as much as we're sort of
(10:27):
encouraging others to do the same. So that's sort of
one example where the tension was just really there in
the midst of trying to produce and get this season
out and just really struggling to find my footing, which
I think is just a very normal and human thing.
So I think we're kind of always trying to figure
it out, especially as our own stories and memories are
coming back to surface or we're engaging with those who
(10:50):
are really moving us. We have to really sort of
be deliberate in the time that we carve out for
taking a pause, taking a moment of rest, and really
thinking about how we care for ourselves through it all,
just as much as we care for the storytellers and
advocates that we work with as well.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
And I'll add on to that, I think season three
also taught me that so much of what we talk
about is also how can people show up for other
folks in their lives? How can you show up for
the friend who is having a baby, or the friend
who might have experienced a loss, or the friend who
is navigating an abortion. And Season three taught me that
we have to show up for each other in that
(11:28):
way too. So the things that we're talking about on
the show, like we need to put in practice as producers,
as teammates, as friends, and that all of these things
are connected, like this is our life too.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Had the decision been made to focus season three on
like abortion rights and things even before we knew that
there was a possibility of the rights being overturned or
is that a decision made afterwards?
Speaker 5 (11:51):
It was made after it was It was one of
those right, Yeah, it was happening, right, the Dobbs decision
came down right. We were finishing up season two and
we took a bit of a break between seasons two
and three, so we were following what was happening, and
it was just top of mind for us, and we
knew we couldn't come into season three without addressing it.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
We knew it would be a part of it.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
I think a little bit later is when we decided that,
you know, that would be the focus.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
For season three.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
But we thought it was really important and an opportunity
to show folks the ways in which all of these
things are connected and lots of spaces perinatal care and
maternal care is separate from abortion care, and that in
many cases that is intentional. But when we think about
(12:40):
what care looks like in the full spectrum of someone's
reproductive experience, none of these things are in isolation. And
we even see it some stories that are coming out
in the news around gender expand to folks who are
looking for experience miscarriage or have pregnancies that they know
won't be able to go to full term, and so
now they and their doctors are trying to figure out
(13:03):
how do we move forward.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
They're not two separate things. Everything is connected.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
So we thought season three would be a cool opportunity
to demonstrate some of that.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Yeah, And I think as the show has continued to
expand over the past three seasons, we were starting to
just hear more and more, especially from Southern birth workers
and advocates and organizers, that DOBS was on the way.
We sort of knew it was coming. And even in
season two, abortion comes up, and we have quite a
ten Slee Peterson and Oriyakun Djoku, both who were at
(13:36):
the time of our Southeast an Abortion Fund that's serving
the greater of not just Georgia, but also other states
in the Southeast region. So we were also just listening
carefully and deeply to folks who were on the ground,
who were doing this work, who are already perhaps in
states where there are already so many restrictions that care
even pre jobs. So I think it was something that
(13:57):
we knew we had an interest in. And I think
to Martinez point, I think thinking really critically about how
we can invite black folks as always, which is who
was always our focus to really think about, how do
we kind of remove the shame and the stigma that's
around abortion care or the decisions people make about their
bodies for their best interests and for their health. How
(14:18):
do we use this ruling to really sort of invite
people into the conversation and realize that all of these
things are connected and autonomy is something that we really
I think stress a lot in this season, but it's
something that kind of continues to come up, and I
think the Jobs decision was just one where it's like
we just could not ignore all that sort of coming
(14:38):
out of it, all the organizing, all the resistance, all
the activism in response to it. So it just felt
like a natural fit in that way for sure.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
One from our conversation after the break, I.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Feel like season three opens beautifully kind of laying their
groundwork for like the long history that black women have
had in organizing for reproductive freedoms. Can you talk about
maybe some of the key lessons that we should be
paying attention to that maybe the larger reproductive freedom advocacy
kind of overlooks.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
I think one of the first ones is that black
folks have been a part of this movement, and black
folks have been having conversations about abortion for a very
long time, and black folks have been leading this movement,
have been organizing, have been working to provide safe abortions,
(15:41):
to help folks access safe abortions for years, you know,
and so this is abortion is also a black issue.
I think that was one of the key takeaways from
like a lot of our research and stuff in preparation
for that conversation between Quadril and Jackson and MSM.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah. Ohough, there are so many lessons from this season
we still reflect on, even though it's our shortest season
to date. I think a lot about Miss Marie Leaner.
I know Martina probably can add to it. It was
a very emotional recording for our team. Mss Marie for
those who haven't listened, Mss Marie Leaner is a founding
member of the James, which was an underground abortion network
(16:21):
in Chicago that was operating in the sixties, so we're
talking pre Roe V. Wade, and she was one of
the only, if not the first, black woman members, right
helping just everyday families and pregnant folks in Chicago get
the care they needed but was not sort of being
provided by the state. And so to have an eighty
plus year old woman, an elder activist, really a legend
(16:46):
in our eyes. I can talk about superstar she is in,
but to sort of sit down with her, to have
the time with her, to hear about her stories, to
hear about her background growing up in Chicago, witnessing sort
of all of your sort of activist movements just happening,
and really sort of finding her calling within this reproductive
justice movement. I think Barantina, we were talking earlier, you
(17:08):
talked a lot about how you know, just like this
arc is so long, right, and this work is not new,
and which is also why we sort of titled that
episode it's not no White Woman's Movement, because we've been
at the forefront of it. And I think too when
it comes to abortion care, even though it's not that
exact language that's sort of laid out in the tenants
for reproductive justice, the right to have a child and
(17:29):
the right to not have a child, the right to
parent a child in the safe environment, those are core tenants, right,
and so abortion is one sort of option people have
if they do not feel that they can whether it's
bringing the baby to full term, the pregnancy is not viable,
if there's sort of other sort of conditions, or if
it's just a personal decision that folks are making in
(17:51):
their best interests. And so I think we just took
away so many nuggets. I feel like mutual aid came
up a lot. How are folks supporting others and community
level and the absence of government, in the absence of
sort of state support, and so mutual aid comes up
a lot. And I think we've been hearing that, especially
when the work that we do with natle because when
(18:12):
we think about it, five years ago was the beginning
of the pandemic. We also did not plan that when
NATO came out. So mutual aid, I think has been
this consistent theme of how black folks continue to organize
for and amongst each other, how we continue to build
power for and amongst each other. And so it's really
just stressing this sort of collectivism, if you will, this
(18:34):
sort of communal care. And I think that really just
sort of came through in all of our interviews in
that way.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Absolutely, So something else that has kind of generated a
lot of conversation in a post DABS era is like
digital privacy. You know, so all these conversations about oh,
take the period trackers off your phones and like, don't
be honest, and with all of these electronics and technology.
I wonder if there's anything that came up in your
researcher as you had conversations for this season that's surprise
(19:00):
you about digital privacy.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I laugh because I was one of those people, you know.
I was like, oh no, I deleted my period tracking app.
I was like, they're not going to get me. But
in our work this season and in speaking with the
legal folks and the advocates that we did, the challenge
is really less about the app of it all, and
(19:25):
it's really about the ways in which the government kind
of can use, or folks can use loopholes and archaic
laws on the books to really entrap black folks who
are looking for the kind of care that they need.
And I do want to make sure that I name
the folks that were featured in our episode about this topic,
(19:46):
Eve Capierre, an Esquire lawyer based in Maryland, and then
doctor Jimiala Parrott, who is based in Washington, d C.
And they had a really great conversation around navigating the
legality of reproductive care, of abortion care, and how in
their work they're helping to fight for and protect black
(20:08):
folks who are facing legal repercussion or where the law
intersects with medicine.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Yeah, I remember at the end of that episode too.
I think IgA is actually as serious or as heavy
as a topic people imagine this conversation to be. There's
actually a lot of lightness and a lot of the
episodes a lot of humor, you know, so you might
cry and laugh maybe within the five minute span every episode.
But I remember towards the end, Ifga was like, girl,
if you want to use your period track and app,
(20:35):
use the app, you know. And so I think it's
like even the folks who are helping to fight legal
cases right or go up against state and city governments
and trying to protect black folks and other folks sort
of rite to privacy. Folks are also saying you have
the right to make decisions for you if that is
a convenient means for you to keep track of your
(20:56):
cycle or other reproductive care needs, use what you have available.
And so I think that always stood out to me
in that way, right, And it wasn't her saying get
off of it, don't ever use it. You have to
go back analog and write everything by hand. And if
you do so, that's fine. And so I thought that
that was really interesting that books that we talk to
(21:17):
and often are in community with, they're just really trying
to meet people where they are at right, And I
think that is always what stands out to me, especially
with their privacy conversation.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
I think so much of this work is exactly that.
It's just yeah, meeting folks where they are, but they
have yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, And they also talked a lot about how challenging
it is, like especially for black folks, and thinking too
about like maybe even older black folks maybe like around
Martinez and nice parents' ages, if you will. So I
guess they're seniors. They probably I don't know how they
feel about that terminology yet or approaching senior citizen age,
but you know, a lot of that kind of community
building in their world is Facebook and the kind of
(21:55):
other sort of digital apps. And so I think the
organizers and abba kids like doctor Janila, like Ifka, they're
also at a crossroads how you organize the very communities
that are the center of your work you care a
lot about, but are also being pushed farther and farther
to the margins and are being threatened the most, you know,
but it's still trying to sort of hold space for
(22:16):
all of this to exist because we deserve to have
the right tools to take care of ourselves, our families,
you know. So yeah, lots of good nuggets.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, Yeah, As y'all were talking, I had a very
very memory of like the calendar from the bank on
like our wall and home and seeing these like little
dots on random days and not knowing until much older
until what that was. That was my mom like period tracker,
right like. So we've been doing this, right like, of
course adapted with the tools now, but there are very
(22:46):
analog as you mentioned, ways for people who are interested
in doing that as well.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Yeah, we've been doing we feel like we say that
a lot. We've been doing it.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Nothing is new, nothing is new.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So so much of NATO involves like storytelling, right Like,
that's kind of the heart of what the podcast is.
How do you feel like storytelling and narrative can be
helpful to shaping like public perception as well as policy.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Storytelling is a critical aspect of this work. It's a
critical aspect of creating new cultural narratives. And that's a
huge part of not just sort of like informing and educating,
but also in the reimagination of what our political systems
and landscape can look like in terms of how we
(23:36):
can reimagine our relationship with our own selves, with each other,
how we connect past and present to the future. Storytelling
has always been a vehicle for black folks, for us,
and so really for us, it's thinking about how we
reclaim the oral tradition, which is very much an African tradition.
It's an indigenous tradition of how do we sort of
(23:59):
continue to die, document our stories and share them and
preserve them, and also think about them as really I
guess a roadmap, if you will. They help us to
really navigate how to move forward. They give us critical
insights into maybe what has worked, how to pivot, how
to respond to ruling such as Adob's decision. And I
(24:24):
think it's just such a critical aspect of this work,
and I think it's a radical part of this work, right.
And I think the way that we think about Needle
is really passing the microphone to everyday families, right, which
is the bulk of our interviews over the past five years,
it's been to everyday families, families that want to be heard,
want to sort of share, want to process their experiences.
(24:47):
We pass the microphone to them to allow them to
have I guess a dedicated space to really reflect and
also start to even reimagine what care can look like,
what it should look like. So it's a really interactive exercise,
not just for entertainment, even though we are podcasts in
that way, but we're really thinking about how do we
(25:09):
sort of use an oral tradition to reclaim and reimagine
and really use our memories as a north star if you.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
Will, yes, I'll also say that storytelling can be very healing,
and so as Gabrielle was speaking to, you know, the
opportunity to reflect, it to chance for people to I
think for many of the families that we've spoken to,
this is the first time that they've ever shared a
story like this. This is sometimes the first time they've
ever spoken about their experiences in this kind of way,
(25:42):
and there's something that can be very therapeutic about that,
and there's also something that can be helped to forge
connection and community. I think storytelling is an active community
it's a way for people to build intimacy and vulnerability
and to be seen and held, even if we're not
in a physical space to get Because much of what
NATAL has done has been virtual and through digital channels,
(26:04):
it's still an opportunity for people to come together and
say I see you, I hear you, I feel you,
I'm holding you, I'm hugging you. And that's a big
part of NATAL, even the way that we think about
how we've cared for our storytellers after they've shared stories
with us, and offering care sessions with the license psychotherapist
in case there's anything they want to unpack. It's really
(26:25):
about giving people the chance to offload if they need to,
in addition to the dreaming and the reclaiming and the reimagining,
like they all go hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Thank you so much for sharing that. I sometimes listen
to podcasts that are of course entertaining and like engaging,
but you can tell like people are sharing some pretty
heavy stuff. And I don't know that I've ever heard
anybody talk about like a postcare like this is how
we take care of our interviewees after it. And of
course it's such a black woman thing to do. Right, Like,
(26:58):
of course you thought of like, Okay, they've opened this
thing up, like they may need care afterwards. So I
really appreciate that both, that's a part of your approach
with that You've also shared that because I don't feel
like I've heard that anywhere else in terms of podcasting.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
I haven't worked on many podcasts where that's a practice.
But we know, yeah, we knew we could not leave
people high and dry. And I think coming into this
project as storytellers of people who have worked in the
industry and podcasting, there is an element to we don't
consider ourselves journalists, but there is an element to the
(27:35):
world in which we navigate and we do some of
this work that can be exploitative, that can tap into
black communities for their stories and then just leave them
hanging there. And we were like, how can we We
don't want to recreate that, Like, we want our work
to be restorative and reparative, So what is an alternative
that will allow that work to be in that way?
(27:56):
So it's important.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
For us from our conversation after the break, So this
is not something that is necessarily native to your word,
but something you said made me think of it. What
does it look like to preserve the oral tradition in
(28:20):
a digital world.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
That's a great question.
Speaker 7 (28:25):
Weally love that, not all the topic, but it just
made me think of it like, cause you're right, like
so much of what we know is like just word
of mouth passed down, right, And I feel like there
is such powerful storytelling happening right now, And then I
think about, how do we make sure that, like, five
generations from now, somebody can access this story.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
I mean, I think it's a lot of what we're
all doing, even the work that you're doing, doctor Joy
and documenting people's stories, documenting experiences, documenting people's practices, all
of this is something that because it's recorded and and
we can save it, it's something that people will be
able to hopefully refer back to. And I think that's
(29:07):
part of the reason why I love podcasts, because of
the oral tradition element of it. I think audio is
one of the most intimate forms of media that we have.
I always say it feels like someone is right like
whispering into your ear, behind your shoulder, like someone is
right there with you, And that really lends itself to
the oral tradition in that art form and so I
think more recently, Gabrielle and I have started thinking of
(29:29):
podcasting and our audio work as a form of archiving,
as a form of oral history and kind of bringing
along this oral tradition into the current day and making
sure that we are doing our part to preserve it
for the future.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
Yeah, and even if you know, future generations aren't sort
of tapped into the RSSS speed, we hope that, you know,
over the years, we're continuing to adapt Needle so that
it continues to be available and accessible, you know. And
I think that's always been a big part of Natal.
We've always had the podcast as the anchor. Of course,
even when we start about the first season, we also
(30:07):
built out digital programming, you know, and thinking about, okay,
maybe folks in and listen, or maybe they did and
want to go a little deeper, but regardless, we're going
to meet them here on Zoom, or we're going to
meet them sort of on ig live, which everybody was
on writing that first year or two of the pandemic.
But thinking about how do we sort of document in
different spaces so that folks can kind of again we
(30:29):
can meet people where they're at and make sure that
they're continuing to feel engaged and care for and not
sort of like if you didn't listen to podcast, shame
on you. There's no shame in any of that. We're
trying to sort of think about different ways to sort
of really sort of I guess, bring Natal to life,
bring me stories to life. So thinking about how we've
we built out a conversation guy that first season, and
(30:50):
even as recently as last year we had our first
in person programming Doctor Joy, and we are thinking both
Martina and I individually and with Natal, thinking a lot
about our programming and partnerships with cultural institutions, and so
we were really fortunate that we partnered with the Los
Angeles County Museum of Art LACKMA for their big Simon
Lee opening celebration. We helped to co present that family
(31:13):
day of programming where we got to introduce families across
Los Angeles to really beautiful black care traditions and ritual practices.
In this case, it was black doll making workshops that
we had for families. And so thinking a lot about
how the stories that we talk about or she get
a chance to share on Natal, thinking a lot about
black care traditions and secial traditions, how do we sort
(31:36):
of make that, you know, available to sort of like
young kids or new families or elders who might want
like a different type of experience and art maybe so
much on the podcast, So I think we're also thinking
about the documentation happening in different spaces as well, and
really just trying to sort of I don't know, it
is not really say ahead of the curve in that way,
(31:57):
but I don't know the podcast will always be the thing,
right but we know right now we've got this feed,
We've got an audience, but we want to continue to
sort of find other spaces where folks can continue to
sort of really reflect on care in this very expansive
and like liberatory way.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
I think it goes back to what we were saying
before about meeting people where they are. We're just kind
of giving more touch points and trying to meet folks
in different kinds of places and engage them in different
ways that feel natural and authentic and organic.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And as your influence continues to grow, like how do
you see NATO continuing to expand the conversation, Like what
are the topics that you have encouraged that you're thinking
about maybe for future seasons or future outreach efforts.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
That's a good question. Hm, I'll go with the future topics. Well,
I'll say this. You know, as NATO was celebrating five
years this year, we're really excited about that, and we're
also thinking about what does the next five years in
NATO look like. So I think, just sort of piggybacking
off of the last question, we're thinking a lot about
what does it look like to continue to document these stories,
(33:00):
what stories have we not got into, what does it
look like to form different types of partnerships, perhaps for
these oral stories to live in other permanent places as well.
Topic wise, we are always always trying to get back
down to the South, and you can kind of notice
it if you've listened to all three seasons. We always
end up in the South. Every finale, every sort of episode,
(33:22):
at least one episode is like we're just you just
hear our love for the South. I think that there's
so much that we oftentimes discount about the South. It's
easy to sort of for many to sort of disregard it,
but that is where the majority of black folks live.
We're thinking about, you know, the restrictions on abortion care,
you're thinking about the growing maternal deserts around the country,
it's the South that is being hit the hardest. So
(33:44):
when we engage with families and birth workers and advocates
who are living these policies out day to day or
fighting against them and resisting in many ways, it's the
South that holds the answers. So we're always excited about
finding new ways to get back to the South microphone,
to more Southern storytellers and to really hear how black
folks are reimagining what care can be because they've already
(34:07):
been doing that, you know, And so we really look
to the South as our north star, honestly, So we're
always excited about who else we can kind of engage
in that region. So that's always high on the list
in terms of topics.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, plus one hundred to all that.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Who do you think might be like an unlikely listener
for NATO and why do you think they should be
listening even though they might not seem like the core audience.
Speaker 5 (34:35):
I'm going to say that if you know anyone who
has the propensity to get pregnant, natal is something that
you should be listening to because this touches all of
us we all know someone who has gone through pregnancy
(34:56):
or had a baby. We all know someone who's had
an abortion. We all have people in our lives that
need us to show up for them. So whether you
are the person who is experiencing that or the person
who's standing beside them, I think natal offers some education,
some insights, but also just you know, language, How can
(35:18):
we show up and really live out some of these values,
these radical values of communal care, of radical acceptance of love.
So I think that maybe some of the more unlikely
listeners have been like men and partners, my dad listens.
But I'm also like it shouldn't be unlikely, like you
should be listening. You have you know, you are a
(35:39):
parent yourself. My father wishes to be your grandparent one day,
Like these are things that you should be listening to.
So I really feel like we center black birthing people,
black women, black gender expansive people. But it's something that
I think anybody can really get valuable insights from.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So much of the conversation around black maternal feels heavy right,
Like it is a heavy topic because a lot has
not gone right or black and pregnant folks. But I
also feel like there is a conversation to be had
about how joy still exists in that place, and you
y'all already talked about it, like there's some levity to
your episodes too, and like you know, black people are
just kind of in hearly funny, like we tell there's
(36:19):
always joy mixed with the pain, right, So what role
would you say joy has as a part of this story.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
That's a great question. It's always been important for us
to share the full range of experiences. So we've never
come at this as like we're just here highlighting what's scary,
what's negative, what's bad, and the trauma, because while, like
you said, those stories are very real, there are also
(36:46):
people having beautiful and empowered and affirming experiences and receiving
the care that they deserve and that we all deserve,
and we need to highlight those people those stories, and
the people who are providing that care and the people
who are fighting for that care. And so I think
that the joy is really guiding light for this work.
(37:09):
You know, when we connect with birth workers, when we
connect with organizers and advocates and providers, they bring joy
to the conversation because they know what this could look
like and what this should look like, and it's infectious.
And so I think that we need the joy to
keep us going. We need the joy because the joy
(37:29):
is the goal. The joy is the destination, you know,
and it's why we're here, because we want these experiences
to be full of joy.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
And so it kind of has to be the thing
that guides us forward.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Couldn't have said that better myself. The thing that I
just stood at, just joys necessary for liberation, And yeah,
it is the guiding light truly in many ways. And
I think, you know, to Martinez point, even when we
started with the first season, we were getting clear feedback
from Midwise and from some mentors. There's obviously very clear
data us to know that black women are experiencing pregnancy
(38:04):
related complications and mortality at far higher rates than other
races here in the country. And on the other side
of those numbers are also black birth and folks who
are experiencing some of the most joyful and beautiful experiences
of care. And so all of those stories deserve to
be told. So I think admittedly with each season, we've
got it better with that balance. Again, to my point, earlier,
(38:26):
we were so afraid, you know, five years ago, I
feel like baby versions of ourselves in many ways. But
we were just so afraid to people who curious about pregnancy,
curious about what this might look like for us, For
friends of ours who were experiencing, whether it's egg freezing
or miscarriages or really having trouble navigating postpartum, we were
(38:47):
seeing sometimes the sort of sharpest edges of it, if
you will. But I think in doing this work, I
think it softened us in a lot of ways, because
it's necessary to hold space for all of it. And
obviously we're trying to create new narratives that can kind
of give birth to new systems of care. And obviously
there are folks who are still, unfortunately, just proportionately so,
(39:10):
just experiencing just terrible care, terrible care that does not
center their well being, does not sort of value them
as a human right. And so we are thinking a
lot about continuing to lift up those stories and then
also making sure folks know what's possible on the other end,
what's possible with the reimagining, and why the reimagining is
(39:30):
so so necessary to this work.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Too beautiful, Thank y'll so much for sharing that. So
where can folks stay connected with you, Where can we
find you online? And where can we check out Natle?
Speaker 5 (39:43):
Well, we can listen to natal wherever you get to
your podcasts, and you can follow Needle on Instagram and Twitter,
and you can also get our newsletter. If you go
to our website, you can send up to subscribe and
get updates there Natal Story.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Everything's Natle Stories perfect.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank y'all so much for spending some time
with me today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
True, of course, I'm so glad Gabrielle and Martina were
able to join me for this conversation to learn more
about them and to check out the work they're doing
at NATLE. Be sure to visit the show notes at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Natle. Did you know
you can leave a voicemail with your questions for the podcast.
(40:34):
If you want to suggest movies or books for us
to review, or even if you have thoughts about topics
you'd like to hear discussed. Drop us a message at
Memo dot fm, slash Therapy for Black Girls and let
us know what's on your mind, we just might feature
it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was produced by
(40:58):
Elise Ellis in Day two vou and Tiree Rush. Editing
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
joining me again this week. Until next time, take good care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for the special bonus episode of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation afterword from our sponsors. The NATO Podcast, executive produced
(01:17):
and hosted by Gabrielle Horton and Martina abrams Aalunga, is
an audio docuseriies centering black parenthood and reproductive justice in America.
Since launching the show, Gabrielle and Martina have brought us
deeply personal stories, sharing the lived experiences of Black women,
gender expansive people, and families navigating the reproductive care space.
(01:40):
Through that storytelling, they not only educate their audiences and
raise awareness, but they also push for real systemic change
in maternal health care, advocating for a future where black
families have access to care that is truly equitable and
rooted in compassion. Some of you might remember an episode
of NATO that we shared a while back. Well, today,
(02:00):
I'm thrilled to welcome Martine and Gabrielle back for this
special bonus episode where we dive into all the incredible
work that went into bringing season three of their podcast
to life. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TBG in session, or join us over in our new
Patreon channel to talk more about the episode. You can
(02:23):
join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.
Here's our conversation. Well, I am so honored to be
joined by Gabrielle and Martina today. I'm very excited to
chat with you all. So many of our community members
may know you from NATO. We did a feensw off
(02:43):
a couple of years ago and people likely tuned in,
But for people who maybe are not familiar and need
a little bit of an introduction, can you introduce yourselves
and tell us how NATO came to be sure?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Do you want to kick us off?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Gabrielle, I'm Gabrielle Horton, originally from Inglewood, California, the executive
producer and also co hosts.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Alongside Martina on n Needle is a podcast about having
a baby while black. I'm sure we'll get a chance
to sort of talk about how it's expanded, but I
really think about the show as a reproductive justice, a
series that helps the chronicle and document the memories and
experiences of Black women, gender expansive people and families and
(03:29):
your experiences navigating reproductive care.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
And I'm Martina Abraham's Ilunga. I'm based in Brooklyn, New York.
I'm co executive producer and host alongside Gabrielle.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And how would you both say that NATO has evolved
over the years that you've been doing it.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Hmm, that's a great question.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
I would say, you know, first, before we get into
how it's evolved, the one thing that's been consistent across
all three seasons, we ask everyone we talk to what
should care look like? What does care look like for
black birthing folks, for black reproductive folks in this country,
and the way that we've answered those questions has looked
differently each season. So we started off really wanting to
(04:14):
get a sense of, Okay, what does care look like
across the country, what are folks facing every single day,
How are folks navigating their care on their journeys to
trying to have a baby? Season one is really a
gumbo pot of stories from folks of different kinds of identities,
different kinds of circumstances, different age groups. And then season
two we wanted to go really deep into the experience
(04:38):
of folks who are navigating having babies, Black folks in
rural places, so we followed three families really closely on
their journeys. And then season three we kind of switched
up the format and even who we spoke to. Season
three launched last fall, and we were really thinking about
how has the Dobbs decision and the Supreme Court kind
(05:01):
of rolling back Roe v. Wade affect what care has
looked like, and so we wanted to talk to the
people who are on the front lines and doing this
work and fighting, and we featured the voices of eight
different advocates, different birth workers, folks who are doing organizing
work in conversation with one another, as they explored how
their work has changed or evolved before, during, and in
(05:25):
this case after, Roe v.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Wade.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
So our work has expanded based off of what is
kind of happening in the atmosphere, what is going on
in the country, what questions are people having, what voices
are we not hearing from?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Those are some of the things.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
That have guided the ways in which NATAL has expanded
in the last five years.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with everything Martinez said. I think
to add on to that, not only is this year
Natal's fifth birthday, fifth anniversary, but I think in terms
of thinking about how we've expanded, I think it's the
first season was really driven by, honestly, a deep fear
that we had about what we now sort of know
and is sort of named as a Black maternal health crisis.
(06:07):
We were hearing stories from friends of ours, We were
even hearing stories from loved ones parents about their own
experiences navigating care in the hospital system, all the things
that they didn't know, all the things that they wish
they had known, and sometimes in some cases the trauma
and even sometimes in their death experiences. So that really
fueled season one in many ways trying to find answers
(06:29):
to this thing that our Tina and I and our
production team we were afraid of as folks who hadn't
given birth but have had a myriad of reproductive care
experiences of our own. And I'd say that with each season,
I think what also guides is that we continue to
open ourselves up, like how expansive liberation can be right.
And I think when we think about reproductive justice, it's
(06:50):
not just like the pregnancy and childbirth and postpartum. We're
really thinking wholeheartedly and in conversation with families and providers
and birth workers who are thinking very expansively about liberation
in this way. So I think with each season, you
kind of get a chance to see us also kind
of step outside of our own fear, if you will,
(07:10):
to really start to reimagine what care can look like
and how we build care systems that work for all
of us. And yeah, so I think you kind of
see us grow as well with the season and try
to sort of guide those conversations in those ways as well.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
Yeah, And you see it in the ways that the
topics expand. Like season one, we really focused on people's pregnancy, birthing,
and postpartum. Season two, the storytelling began for each of
the parent storytellers that we featured really begin when they
were children. Now, what did you first learn about your body?
How did you first learn how to take care of yourself?
What were the lessons you received about care, about going
(07:47):
to the doctor, about your bodily autonomy? And then season
three was introducing, really for the not for the first
time on our show, but in this focused way, the
idea of abortion care and how we connect a border
care to the larger reproductive justice work that's being done,
and showing these connections between abortion and maternal health care
(08:09):
more broadly and how you know they're not isolated issues.
So I think that feeds into it. Yeah, you were saying, Gabby.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, And I know I don't have to tell you
to this parious time we find ourselves in history, and
you know, I think a lot about like black women
like you all doing this kind of work in this
kind of way at this time. And so you know,
how would you say your heart has been as you
continue to pour into this work, and how have you
(08:36):
been taking care of yourself giving yourself in this way?
You know, as you continue to show.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Up, Doctor Joy. That's a big questions, a heavy one.
We think about this a lot. We talk about this
a lot, and to be quite honestly, Martina and I
have cultivated a friendship over the past five years as well.
We started off as colleagues. But I think as we've
been developing our friendship, we have these conversations about how
(09:02):
are we caring for ourselves. I'll use an example from
last season, the season three that Martina reference, where we
focused on what does care look like for black families
after the overturning of Roe v. Wade and episode three
in particular, I share a little bit about my own
abortion story, and that was something that obviously came up
(09:22):
as we're doing our planning, we're having reproduction calls as
a team, how are we framing things. We're always trying
to sort of bring ourselves to the conversation in some ways,
not focused on us, but making sure folks know that
we're having our own experiences as we're also asking folks
to be vulnerable and share their experiences with us. And
that was a difficult time. I did not know how
to communicate how challenging it was to revisit my own
(09:46):
abortion that happened over a decade ago, and I really
struggled in silence with it. As much as we sort
of preached this openness and honesty and vulnerability, I was
struggling to really show up honestly with my team with Martina,
And so end of the season, when we had our
sort of big reflection and debrief, we talked about that,
and then Martina and I had even further conversations what
(10:07):
does it look like to care for ourselves in the
midst of doing this work, and so, you know, I
think we think a lot about that. You know, obviously
there's examples I can share, taking walks outside, stopping for
deep breaths, getting back into therapy, just thinking about ways
that we can sort of build the sort of larger
tool kit for ourselves as much as we're sort of
(10:27):
encouraging others to do the same. So that's sort of
one example where the tension was just really there in
the midst of trying to produce and get this season
out and just really struggling to find my footing, which
I think is just a very normal and human thing.
So I think we're kind of always trying to figure
it out, especially as our own stories and memories are
coming back to surface or we're engaging with those who
(10:50):
are really moving us. We have to really sort of
be deliberate in the time that we carve out for
taking a pause, taking a moment of rest, and really
thinking about how we care for ourselves through it all,
just as much as we care for the storytellers and
advocates that we work with as well.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
And I'll add on to that, I think season three
also taught me that so much of what we talk
about is also how can people show up for other
folks in their lives? How can you show up for
the friend who is having a baby, or the friend
who might have experienced a loss, or the friend who
is navigating an abortion. And Season three taught me that
we have to show up for each other in that
(11:28):
way too. So the things that we're talking about on
the show, like we need to put in practice as producers,
as teammates, as friends, and that all of these things
are connected, like this is our life too.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Had the decision been made to focus season three on
like abortion rights and things even before we knew that
there was a possibility of the rights being overturned or
is that a decision made afterwards?
Speaker 5 (11:51):
It was made after it was It was one of
those right, Yeah, it was happening, right, the Dobbs decision
came down right. We were finishing up season two and
we took a bit of a break between seasons two
and three, so we were following what was happening, and
it was just top of mind for us, and we
knew we couldn't come into season three without addressing it.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
We knew it would be a part of it.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
I think a little bit later is when we decided that,
you know, that would be the focus.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
For season three.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
But we thought it was really important and an opportunity
to show folks the ways in which all of these
things are connected and lots of spaces perinatal care and
maternal care is separate from abortion care, and that in
many cases that is intentional. But when we think about
(12:40):
what care looks like in the full spectrum of someone's
reproductive experience, none of these things are in isolation. And
we even see it some stories that are coming out
in the news around gender expand to folks who are
looking for experience miscarriage or have pregnancies that they know
won't be able to go to full term, and so
now they and their doctors are trying to figure out
(13:03):
how do we move forward.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
They're not two separate things. Everything is connected.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
So we thought season three would be a cool opportunity
to demonstrate some of that.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Yeah, And I think as the show has continued to
expand over the past three seasons, we were starting to
just hear more and more, especially from Southern birth workers
and advocates and organizers, that DOBS was on the way.
We sort of knew it was coming. And even in
season two, abortion comes up, and we have quite a
ten Slee Peterson and Oriyakun Djoku, both who were at
(13:36):
the time of our Southeast an Abortion Fund that's serving
the greater of not just Georgia, but also other states
in the Southeast region. So we were also just listening
carefully and deeply to folks who were on the ground,
who were doing this work, who are already perhaps in
states where there are already so many restrictions that care
even pre jobs. So I think it was something that
(13:57):
we knew we had an interest in. And I think
to Martinez point, I think thinking really critically about how
we can invite black folks as always, which is who
was always our focus to really think about, how do
we kind of remove the shame and the stigma that's
around abortion care or the decisions people make about their
bodies for their best interests and for their health. How
(14:18):
do we use this ruling to really sort of invite
people into the conversation and realize that all of these
things are connected and autonomy is something that we really
I think stress a lot in this season, but it's
something that kind of continues to come up, and I
think the Jobs decision was just one where it's like
we just could not ignore all that sort of coming
(14:38):
out of it, all the organizing, all the resistance, all
the activism in response to it. So it just felt
like a natural fit in that way for sure.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
One from our conversation after the break, I.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Feel like season three opens beautifully kind of laying their
groundwork for like the long history that black women have
had in organizing for reproductive freedoms. Can you talk about
maybe some of the key lessons that we should be
paying attention to that maybe the larger reproductive freedom advocacy
kind of overlooks.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
I think one of the first ones is that black
folks have been a part of this movement, and black
folks have been having conversations about abortion for a very
long time, and black folks have been leading this movement,
have been organizing, have been working to provide safe abortions,
(15:41):
to help folks access safe abortions for years, you know,
and so this is abortion is also a black issue.
I think that was one of the key takeaways from
like a lot of our research and stuff in preparation
for that conversation between Quadril and Jackson and MSM.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah. Ohough, there are so many lessons from this season
we still reflect on, even though it's our shortest season
to date. I think a lot about Miss Marie Leaner.
I know Martina probably can add to it. It was
a very emotional recording for our team. Mss Marie for
those who haven't listened, Mss Marie Leaner is a founding
member of the James, which was an underground abortion network
(16:21):
in Chicago that was operating in the sixties, so we're
talking pre Roe V. Wade, and she was one of
the only, if not the first, black woman members, right
helping just everyday families and pregnant folks in Chicago get
the care they needed but was not sort of being
provided by the state. And so to have an eighty
plus year old woman, an elder activist, really a legend
(16:46):
in our eyes. I can talk about superstar she is in,
but to sort of sit down with her, to have
the time with her, to hear about her stories, to
hear about her background growing up in Chicago, witnessing sort
of all of your sort of activist movements just happening,
and really sort of finding her calling within this reproductive
justice movement. I think Barantina, we were talking earlier, you
(17:08):
talked a lot about how you know, just like this
arc is so long, right, and this work is not new,
and which is also why we sort of titled that
episode it's not no White Woman's Movement, because we've been
at the forefront of it. And I think too when
it comes to abortion care, even though it's not that
exact language that's sort of laid out in the tenants
for reproductive justice, the right to have a child and
(17:29):
the right to not have a child, the right to
parent a child in the safe environment, those are core tenants, right,
and so abortion is one sort of option people have
if they do not feel that they can whether it's
bringing the baby to full term, the pregnancy is not viable,
if there's sort of other sort of conditions, or if
it's just a personal decision that folks are making in
(17:51):
their best interests. And so I think we just took
away so many nuggets. I feel like mutual aid came
up a lot. How are folks supporting others and community
level and the absence of government, in the absence of
sort of state support, and so mutual aid comes up
a lot. And I think we've been hearing that, especially
when the work that we do with natle because when
(18:12):
we think about it, five years ago was the beginning
of the pandemic. We also did not plan that when
NATO came out. So mutual aid, I think has been
this consistent theme of how black folks continue to organize
for and amongst each other, how we continue to build
power for and amongst each other. And so it's really
just stressing this sort of collectivism, if you will, this
(18:34):
sort of communal care. And I think that really just
sort of came through in all of our interviews in
that way.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Absolutely, So something else that has kind of generated a
lot of conversation in a post DABS era is like
digital privacy. You know, so all these conversations about oh,
take the period trackers off your phones and like, don't
be honest, and with all of these electronics and technology.
I wonder if there's anything that came up in your
researcher as you had conversations for this season that's surprise
(19:00):
you about digital privacy.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I laugh because I was one of those people, you know.
I was like, oh no, I deleted my period tracking app.
I was like, they're not going to get me. But
in our work this season and in speaking with the
legal folks and the advocates that we did, the challenge
is really less about the app of it all, and
(19:25):
it's really about the ways in which the government kind
of can use, or folks can use loopholes and archaic
laws on the books to really entrap black folks who
are looking for the kind of care that they need.
And I do want to make sure that I name
the folks that were featured in our episode about this topic,
(19:46):
Eve Capierre, an Esquire lawyer based in Maryland, and then
doctor Jimiala Parrott, who is based in Washington, d C.
And they had a really great conversation around navigating the
legality of reproductive care, of abortion care, and how in
their work they're helping to fight for and protect black
(20:08):
folks who are facing legal repercussion or where the law
intersects with medicine.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Yeah, I remember at the end of that episode too.
I think IgA is actually as serious or as heavy
as a topic people imagine this conversation to be. There's
actually a lot of lightness and a lot of the
episodes a lot of humor, you know, so you might
cry and laugh maybe within the five minute span every episode.
But I remember towards the end, Ifga was like, girl,
if you want to use your period track and app,
(20:35):
use the app, you know. And so I think it's
like even the folks who are helping to fight legal
cases right or go up against state and city governments
and trying to protect black folks and other folks sort
of rite to privacy. Folks are also saying you have
the right to make decisions for you if that is
a convenient means for you to keep track of your
(20:56):
cycle or other reproductive care needs, use what you have available.
And so I think that always stood out to me
in that way, right, And it wasn't her saying get
off of it, don't ever use it. You have to
go back analog and write everything by hand. And if
you do so, that's fine. And so I thought that
that was really interesting that books that we talk to
(21:17):
and often are in community with, they're just really trying
to meet people where they are at right, And I
think that is always what stands out to me, especially
with their privacy conversation.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
I think so much of this work is exactly that.
It's just yeah, meeting folks where they are, but they
have yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, And they also talked a lot about how challenging
it is, like especially for black folks, and thinking too
about like maybe even older black folks maybe like around
Martinez and nice parents' ages, if you will. So I
guess they're seniors. They probably I don't know how they
feel about that terminology yet or approaching senior citizen age,
but you know, a lot of that kind of community
building in their world is Facebook and the kind of
(21:55):
other sort of digital apps. And so I think the
organizers and abba kids like doctor Janila, like Ifka, they're
also at a crossroads how you organize the very communities
that are the center of your work you care a
lot about, but are also being pushed farther and farther
to the margins and are being threatened the most, you know,
but it's still trying to sort of hold space for
(22:16):
all of this to exist because we deserve to have
the right tools to take care of ourselves, our families,
you know. So yeah, lots of good nuggets.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, Yeah, As y'all were talking, I had a very
very memory of like the calendar from the bank on
like our wall and home and seeing these like little
dots on random days and not knowing until much older
until what that was. That was my mom like period tracker,
right like. So we've been doing this, right like, of
course adapted with the tools now, but there are very
(22:46):
analog as you mentioned, ways for people who are interested
in doing that as well.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Yeah, we've been doing we feel like we say that
a lot. We've been doing it.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Nothing is new, nothing is new.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So so much of NATO involves like storytelling, right Like,
that's kind of the heart of what the podcast is.
How do you feel like storytelling and narrative can be
helpful to shaping like public perception as well as policy.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Storytelling is a critical aspect of this work. It's a
critical aspect of creating new cultural narratives. And that's a
huge part of not just sort of like informing and educating,
but also in the reimagination of what our political systems
and landscape can look like in terms of how we
(23:36):
can reimagine our relationship with our own selves, with each other,
how we connect past and present to the future. Storytelling
has always been a vehicle for black folks, for us,
and so really for us, it's thinking about how we
reclaim the oral tradition, which is very much an African tradition.
It's an indigenous tradition of how do we sort of
(23:59):
continue to die, document our stories and share them and
preserve them, and also think about them as really I
guess a roadmap, if you will. They help us to
really navigate how to move forward. They give us critical
insights into maybe what has worked, how to pivot, how
to respond to ruling such as Adob's decision. And I
(24:24):
think it's just such a critical aspect of this work,
and I think it's a radical part of this work, right.
And I think the way that we think about Needle
is really passing the microphone to everyday families, right, which
is the bulk of our interviews over the past five years,
it's been to everyday families, families that want to be heard,
want to sort of share, want to process their experiences.
(24:47):
We pass the microphone to them to allow them to
have I guess a dedicated space to really reflect and
also start to even reimagine what care can look like,
what it should look like. So it's a really interactive exercise,
not just for entertainment, even though we are podcasts in
that way, but we're really thinking about how do we
(25:09):
sort of use an oral tradition to reclaim and reimagine
and really use our memories as a north star if you.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
Will, yes, I'll also say that storytelling can be very healing,
and so as Gabrielle was speaking to, you know, the
opportunity to reflect, it to chance for people to I
think for many of the families that we've spoken to,
this is the first time that they've ever shared a
story like this. This is sometimes the first time they've
ever spoken about their experiences in this kind of way,
(25:42):
and there's something that can be very therapeutic about that,
and there's also something that can be helped to forge
connection and community. I think storytelling is an active community
it's a way for people to build intimacy and vulnerability
and to be seen and held, even if we're not
in a physical space to get Because much of what
NATAL has done has been virtual and through digital channels,
(26:04):
it's still an opportunity for people to come together and
say I see you, I hear you, I feel you,
I'm holding you, I'm hugging you. And that's a big
part of NATAL, even the way that we think about
how we've cared for our storytellers after they've shared stories
with us, and offering care sessions with the license psychotherapist
in case there's anything they want to unpack. It's really
(26:25):
about giving people the chance to offload if they need to,
in addition to the dreaming and the reclaiming and the reimagining,
like they all go hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Thank you so much for sharing that. I sometimes listen
to podcasts that are of course entertaining and like engaging,
but you can tell like people are sharing some pretty
heavy stuff. And I don't know that I've ever heard
anybody talk about like a postcare like this is how
we take care of our interviewees after it. And of
course it's such a black woman thing to do. Right, Like,
(26:58):
of course you thought of like, Okay, they've opened this
thing up, like they may need care afterwards. So I
really appreciate that both, that's a part of your approach
with that You've also shared that because I don't feel
like I've heard that anywhere else in terms of podcasting.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
I haven't worked on many podcasts where that's a practice.
But we know, yeah, we knew we could not leave
people high and dry. And I think coming into this
project as storytellers of people who have worked in the
industry and podcasting, there is an element to we don't
consider ourselves journalists, but there is an element to the
(27:35):
world in which we navigate and we do some of
this work that can be exploitative, that can tap into
black communities for their stories and then just leave them
hanging there. And we were like, how can we We
don't want to recreate that, Like, we want our work
to be restorative and reparative, So what is an alternative
that will allow that work to be in that way?
(27:56):
So it's important.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
For us from our conversation after the break, So this
is not something that is necessarily native to your word,
but something you said made me think of it. What
does it look like to preserve the oral tradition in
(28:20):
a digital world.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
That's a great question.
Speaker 7 (28:25):
Weally love that, not all the topic, but it just
made me think of it like, cause you're right, like
so much of what we know is like just word
of mouth passed down, right, And I feel like there
is such powerful storytelling happening right now, And then I
think about, how do we make sure that, like, five
generations from now, somebody can access this story.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
I mean, I think it's a lot of what we're
all doing, even the work that you're doing, doctor Joy
and documenting people's stories, documenting experiences, documenting people's practices, all
of this is something that because it's recorded and and
we can save it, it's something that people will be
able to hopefully refer back to. And I think that's
(29:07):
part of the reason why I love podcasts, because of
the oral tradition element of it. I think audio is
one of the most intimate forms of media that we have.
I always say it feels like someone is right like
whispering into your ear, behind your shoulder, like someone is
right there with you, And that really lends itself to
the oral tradition in that art form and so I
think more recently, Gabrielle and I have started thinking of
(29:29):
podcasting and our audio work as a form of archiving,
as a form of oral history and kind of bringing
along this oral tradition into the current day and making
sure that we are doing our part to preserve it
for the future.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
Yeah, and even if you know, future generations aren't sort
of tapped into the RSSS speed, we hope that, you know,
over the years, we're continuing to adapt Needle so that
it continues to be available and accessible, you know. And
I think that's always been a big part of Natal.
We've always had the podcast as the anchor. Of course,
even when we start about the first season, we also
(30:07):
built out digital programming, you know, and thinking about, okay,
maybe folks in and listen, or maybe they did and
want to go a little deeper, but regardless, we're going
to meet them here on Zoom, or we're going to
meet them sort of on ig live, which everybody was
on writing that first year or two of the pandemic.
But thinking about how do we sort of document in
different spaces so that folks can kind of again we
(30:29):
can meet people where they're at and make sure that
they're continuing to feel engaged and care for and not
sort of like if you didn't listen to podcast, shame
on you. There's no shame in any of that. We're
trying to sort of think about different ways to sort
of really sort of I guess, bring Natal to life,
bring me stories to life. So thinking about how we've
we built out a conversation guy that first season, and
(30:50):
even as recently as last year we had our first
in person programming Doctor Joy, and we are thinking both
Martina and I individually and with Natal, thinking a lot
about our programming and partnerships with cultural institutions, and so
we were really fortunate that we partnered with the Los
Angeles County Museum of Art LACKMA for their big Simon
Lee opening celebration. We helped to co present that family
(31:13):
day of programming where we got to introduce families across
Los Angeles to really beautiful black care traditions and ritual practices.
In this case, it was black doll making workshops that
we had for families. And so thinking a lot about
how the stories that we talk about or she get
a chance to share on Natal, thinking a lot about
black care traditions and secial traditions, how do we sort
(31:36):
of make that, you know, available to sort of like
young kids or new families or elders who might want
like a different type of experience and art maybe so
much on the podcast, So I think we're also thinking
about the documentation happening in different spaces as well, and
really just trying to sort of I don't know, it
is not really say ahead of the curve in that way,
(31:57):
but I don't know the podcast will always be the thing,
right but we know right now we've got this feed,
We've got an audience, but we want to continue to
sort of find other spaces where folks can continue to
sort of really reflect on care in this very expansive
and like liberatory way.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
I think it goes back to what we were saying
before about meeting people where they are. We're just kind
of giving more touch points and trying to meet folks
in different kinds of places and engage them in different
ways that feel natural and authentic and organic.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And as your influence continues to grow, like how do
you see NATO continuing to expand the conversation, Like what
are the topics that you have encouraged that you're thinking
about maybe for future seasons or future outreach efforts.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
That's a good question. Hm, I'll go with the future topics. Well,
I'll say this. You know, as NATO was celebrating five
years this year, we're really excited about that, and we're
also thinking about what does the next five years in
NATO look like. So I think, just sort of piggybacking
off of the last question, we're thinking a lot about
what does it look like to continue to document these stories,
(33:00):
what stories have we not got into, what does it
look like to form different types of partnerships, perhaps for
these oral stories to live in other permanent places as well.
Topic wise, we are always always trying to get back
down to the South, and you can kind of notice
it if you've listened to all three seasons. We always
end up in the South. Every finale, every sort of episode,
(33:22):
at least one episode is like we're just you just
hear our love for the South. I think that there's
so much that we oftentimes discount about the South. It's
easy to sort of for many to sort of disregard it,
but that is where the majority of black folks live.
We're thinking about, you know, the restrictions on abortion care,
you're thinking about the growing maternal deserts around the country,
it's the South that is being hit the hardest. So
(33:44):
when we engage with families and birth workers and advocates
who are living these policies out day to day or
fighting against them and resisting in many ways, it's the
South that holds the answers. So we're always excited about
finding new ways to get back to the South microphone,
to more Southern storytellers and to really hear how black
folks are reimagining what care can be because they've already
(34:07):
been doing that, you know, And so we really look
to the South as our north star, honestly, So we're
always excited about who else we can kind of engage
in that region. So that's always high on the list
in terms of topics.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, plus one hundred to all that.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Who do you think might be like an unlikely listener
for NATO and why do you think they should be
listening even though they might not seem like the core audience.
Speaker 5 (34:35):
I'm going to say that if you know anyone who
has the propensity to get pregnant, natal is something that
you should be listening to because this touches all of
us we all know someone who has gone through pregnancy
(34:56):
or had a baby. We all know someone who's had
an abortion. We all have people in our lives that
need us to show up for them. So whether you
are the person who is experiencing that or the person
who's standing beside them, I think natal offers some education,
some insights, but also just you know, language, How can
(35:18):
we show up and really live out some of these values,
these radical values of communal care, of radical acceptance of love.
So I think that maybe some of the more unlikely
listeners have been like men and partners, my dad listens.
But I'm also like it shouldn't be unlikely, like you
should be listening. You have you know, you are a
(35:39):
parent yourself. My father wishes to be your grandparent one day,
Like these are things that you should be listening to.
So I really feel like we center black birthing people,
black women, black gender expansive people. But it's something that
I think anybody can really get valuable insights from.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So much of the conversation around black maternal feels heavy right,
Like it is a heavy topic because a lot has
not gone right or black and pregnant folks. But I
also feel like there is a conversation to be had
about how joy still exists in that place, and you
y'all already talked about it, like there's some levity to
your episodes too, and like you know, black people are
just kind of in hearly funny, like we tell there's
(36:19):
always joy mixed with the pain, right, So what role
would you say joy has as a part of this story.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
That's a great question. It's always been important for us
to share the full range of experiences. So we've never
come at this as like we're just here highlighting what's scary,
what's negative, what's bad, and the trauma, because while, like
you said, those stories are very real, there are also
(36:46):
people having beautiful and empowered and affirming experiences and receiving
the care that they deserve and that we all deserve,
and we need to highlight those people those stories, and
the people who are providing that care and the people
who are fighting for that care. And so I think
that the joy is really guiding light for this work.
(37:09):
You know, when we connect with birth workers, when we
connect with organizers and advocates and providers, they bring joy
to the conversation because they know what this could look
like and what this should look like, and it's infectious.
And so I think that we need the joy to
keep us going. We need the joy because the joy
(37:29):
is the goal. The joy is the destination, you know,
and it's why we're here, because we want these experiences
to be full of joy.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
And so it kind of has to be the thing
that guides us forward.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Couldn't have said that better myself. The thing that I
just stood at, just joys necessary for liberation, And yeah,
it is the guiding light truly in many ways. And
I think, you know, to Martinez point, even when we
started with the first season, we were getting clear feedback
from Midwise and from some mentors. There's obviously very clear
data us to know that black women are experiencing pregnancy
(38:04):
related complications and mortality at far higher rates than other
races here in the country. And on the other side
of those numbers are also black birth and folks who
are experiencing some of the most joyful and beautiful experiences
of care. And so all of those stories deserve to
be told. So I think admittedly with each season, we've
got it better with that balance. Again, to my point, earlier,
(38:26):
we were so afraid, you know, five years ago, I
feel like baby versions of ourselves in many ways. But
we were just so afraid to people who curious about pregnancy,
curious about what this might look like for us, For
friends of ours who were experiencing, whether it's egg freezing
or miscarriages or really having trouble navigating postpartum, we were
(38:47):
seeing sometimes the sort of sharpest edges of it, if
you will. But I think in doing this work, I
think it softened us in a lot of ways, because
it's necessary to hold space for all of it. And
obviously we're trying to create new narratives that can kind
of give birth to new systems of care. And obviously
there are folks who are still, unfortunately, just proportionately so,
(39:10):
just experiencing just terrible care, terrible care that does not
center their well being, does not sort of value them
as a human right. And so we are thinking a
lot about continuing to lift up those stories and then
also making sure folks know what's possible on the other end,
what's possible with the reimagining, and why the reimagining is
(39:30):
so so necessary to this work.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Too beautiful, Thank y'll so much for sharing that. So
where can folks stay connected with you, Where can we
find you online? And where can we check out Natle?
Speaker 5 (39:43):
Well, we can listen to natal wherever you get to
your podcasts, and you can follow Needle on Instagram and Twitter,
and you can also get our newsletter. If you go
to our website, you can send up to subscribe and
get updates there Natal Story.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Everything's Natle Stories perfect.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank y'all so much for spending some time
with me today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
True, of course, I'm so glad Gabrielle and Martina were
able to join me for this conversation to learn more
about them and to check out the work they're doing
at NATLE. Be sure to visit the show notes at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Natle. Did you know
you can leave a voicemail with your questions for the podcast.
(40:34):
If you want to suggest movies or books for us
to review, or even if you have thoughts about topics
you'd like to hear discussed. Drop us a message at
Memo dot fm, slash Therapy for Black Girls and let
us know what's on your mind, we just might feature
it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was produced by
(40:58):
Elise Ellis in Day two vou and Tiree Rush. Editing
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
joining me again this week. Until next time, take good care,
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