June 21, 2023 • 52 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
We’ve had dozens of therapists on the podcast sharing their perspectives on various topics, from friendships to meditation and even horror movies. But have you ever wondered what it takes to become a licensed therapist? Well, the road isn’t paved in gold…more like a few years of school and thousands of hours in supervision. But don’t fret, this third installment of our Becoming A Therapist series is for our community members who are therapists, sisters looking to enter the field, and everyone in between.
Joining me today are therapists Dr. Kimberly Applewhite, based in Utah, Dr. D’Andria Jackson based in Ohio, Dr. Donna Oriowo in Washington D.C., and Josephine Ampaw-Green in Colorado. My colleagues and I got candid about our journeys and talked about the different ways to market yourself and increase your caseload, how to navigate social media and ethics, and weighing the options between starting your own private practice or working in a group practice or agency.
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Where to Find Our Guests
Dr. Kimberly Applewhite
Dr. D'Andria Jackson
Dr. Donna Oriowo
Josephine Ampaw Greene
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
(00:32):
find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
(00:58):
joining me for session three twelve of the Therapy for
Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
a word from our sponsors. We've had dozens of therapists
on the podcast sharing their perspectives on various topics, from
(01:19):
friendships to meditation, and even horror movies. But have you
ever wondered what it takes to become a licensed therapist? Well,
the road isn't paved in gold, more like a few
years of school and thousands of hours in supervision. But
don't fret. This third installment of our Becoming a Therapist
series is for our community members who are therapists, sisters
(01:40):
looking to enter the field, and everyone in between. Joining
me today are therapist doctor Kimberly Applewhite based in Utah,
doctor DeAndrea Jackson based in Ohio, doctor Donna Oriowo in Washington,
d C. And Josephine and Paul Green in Colorado. Collegues
and I got candid about our journeys and talked about
(02:02):
the different ways to market yourself and increase your caseload,
how to navigate social media and ethics, and weighing your
options between starting your own private practice are working in
a group setting our agency. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on
social media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join
(02:25):
us over in the sister circle to talk more in
depth about the episode. You can join us at community
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well,
I am so excited that all of you are able
to join us for part three now of our incredible
conversation of becoming a therapist. Who knew that this was
spin into like its own little mini series, But I
(02:47):
think the community has just valued your voices so much so,
I'm glad that you were all able to join us
again today. So one of the questions that we have
not been able to get to that I really want
to spend some time talking about is the idea of
marketing yourself as a private practice therapist or even if
you're not in private practice, you still want a caseload, right,
And this is definitely one of those things that they
(03:08):
did not teach us in grad school. I don't know
if grad schools are teaching this now, but definitely when
I graduated, there was no marketing, like how do you
even get your first client? So what did you do
or what are you currently doing to market yourself? And
what would you like other therapists to know about different
avenues or different opportunities they might have to market themselves
as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
One thing I used with social media, especially when I
was getting started, I needed people to understand what it
was exactly that I was doing as a therapist that
may not meet whatever they think a therapist is supposed
to do, right, so as a sex and relationship therapist,
but with a focus on colorism and texturalism. A lot
(03:49):
of the work that I was doing is let me
educate you about what this thing is and why you
might need this thing. So educate from that perspective in
social media was a really great help because it opened
the door for people to understand exactly what it was.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I was doing, why I was doing, and why they.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Might want to come and see me specifically, because, despite
what they say profile on psychology today, therapy for black
girls and whatever, plethora of other spaces is not enough.
That's more passive, and I wanted to be more active.
So in addition to that type of marketing, I talked
to therapists in this area.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I'm like, who are.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The people who see my people who might at some
point be on overflow and need somebody to service backup?
Like me, pick me, choose me, love me. So that's
what I was, especially when I started.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
I feel like so many of those points were so wise,
Doctor Donna, because I was just talking to somebody on
the phone before I got on here. So my background
is in child psychology, but I don't do a lot
of assessments now, so I'll pretty much only do them
for BIPOD clients or when one of my black clinician's
colleagues refers them to me because I really do not
like report writings like anti marketing. But I was telling
(05:09):
this parrot because they were talking about how hard it
is to find black therapists, especially here in Utah where
I'm based, and I'm like, I think we've got this
underground railroad situation where we know who will do what,
and so I do think it's so wise to talk
to other therapists in the area. It may seem like competition,
but because we're all doing kind of different things, even
(05:30):
if we have the same focus on audiences, we might
have a different flavor, different priorities, and so it's not competition.
And I would love to decolonize competition, Like I think
there's enough for all of us if we're working together.
And so I really just value a lot of what
you said, and also just the value of social media.
That was something that I was taught on one of
(05:51):
my post fellowships that was public health emphasized. Like all
of the doctors, all of the fellows, they were all
on social media, and that's how a lot of times
you get to see what's going on in the world,
what other people are saying, to exchange ideas, and then
that becomes its own marketing across the country, especially for
psychologists who have sie packed capability. If you apply for sypack,
(06:15):
which means that you can see people in many states,
over thirty states, so people who were just limiting their
marketing to their state. I also have just looked at
how being careful about how I am describing myself. Our
company takes lera client. Soleira is a third party contractor.
(06:36):
It works with a lot of employee assistance programs. But
for like pretty expansive companies, and on those platforms, you
only get so much space to describe who you are,
and so then it's important that how you communicate things
has the flavor of who you are too, and not
just what you do. Because I work at an evidence
(06:57):
based place, that's how it markets itself. Then my first
profiles sound a little bit like an evidence paced robot,
like I do I do, and I'm like I read
them all recently. I'm like, this is not even who
I am anymore, Like I'm just a therapist.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
You could kick it.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
And so just being able to communicate that stuff in
your language, I think is important if you're going to
go those traditional marketing routes, because you are still a
brand like even if you're fresh out of school, you're
a brand.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Like doctor Donna said, people who already have the audience
that you're looking for. And if I'm looking to work
with black women, then I'm gonna be talking to hairstylists
about what it is that I do and how I
can offer support to them and to their clientele. Because
you know, we've said in the salon chair and we
get to talking and people will talk about their problems
(07:44):
and does the line is not always the place to
get the skills and the resources. So just being a
walking marketing opportunity for yourself talking to anyone who might
have your clientele as a captive audience, I think would be.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I think that they're so much good that has been said.
What I would add is that even though there are
all of these traditional sort of ways of marketing, like
social media, well I guess social media is becoming a
bit more traditional talking to other therapists, talking to other doctors.
I have personally found that working with other agencies that
(08:22):
are full and overflowing has been a really great way
to also get in the door. And I find that
talking to many different folks who are not necessarily in
the mental health world or connected to the mental health
world tend to really not have a strong understanding of
what we do. So I find myself even there was
a time at the airport not too long ago, or
(08:44):
I ended up like explaining what it means to be
a trauma therapist and it opened up this whole conversation.
I was even able to get a referral from that.
So I think it's really important to remember that our
referrals can come from even very obscure and peculiar places.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
So for those of you who've talked about using social
media to market yourself and market your practice, because even
though a lot of this has not been talked about
in grad school, social media definitely is one that I
think there are some conversations now happening, but definitely not
a lot. And we know that our ethical codes typically
are at least five years behind like where we are
(09:20):
in reality as practitioners. So what kinds of things would
you want therapists or future therapists to know about what
it looks like to market yourself on social media? Because
as licensed professionals, I do think we have to be
careful in what marketing looks like and like being sure
not to overpromise things and like just maybe operating outside
of our scope of expertise. So what kinds of things
(09:42):
do you want therapists to know about what looks like
to ethically market yourself on social media.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
I'll go first on this one. I have a social
media manager who is going to be going into public
health for her master's degree and looks through and helps
me plan everything. She's a gift of a human being, Divya,
and I find that if there is a second set
of eyes on what I'm doing and I have to
(10:10):
explain to somebody why I am doing what I'm doing,
and they who are not like Dibya is not a therapist,
will be able to answer or ask me like is
this ethical? It encourages me to make sure and double check.
So I think for me personally, it's been really helpful
to collaborate with other folks and make sure that what
(10:33):
I'm putting out there hits what's ethical without like what
you were saying, doctor Joy over promising. I also think
that social media there's a lot of things that are
really trendy. I personally am not that great at it,
but I think that knowing what trends are actually useful
for us to lean into versus which ones we probably
could like just lean back from is also important when
(10:57):
looking at ethics. But I personally find that if I
have to explain why I'm putting something on social media
to another person, then I'm sure that what I'm doing
I can argue in the future.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
Social media is not where I do most of my marketing,
but I think the thing that's kept me from doing that.
My concern around is this the best place to market
myself has been those dns and whether or not people
might try to reach out and ask questions or divulge
information without me even asking. That might tiptoe us in
to areas of limits of confidentiality and all kinds of
(11:30):
other ethical issues. That's why I've been a little bit
hesitant on social media myself, but I'm open to any
feedback on that.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I have found that you got to state your boundaries,
and you state them early, and you state them often right. So,
as a sex therapist, dig pics are part of my
reality because people will send them, but I don't have
to open it, I don't have to check it, I
don't have to respond. For all of our clients, we
send regular when my that you are not allowed to
(12:01):
ask nary a question in the DM, not even when
your next appointment is that you will be deleted and
blocked because Meta is not known for keeping secrets, and
while we have an ethical obligation to keep your secrets,
Meta does not. And something that had happened a few
years ago where a private conversation that somebody was having
(12:22):
in their DMS was used to prosecute somebody, let us
know that Meta is not your friend, So stay up
out of those dms.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Right. But for me where it comes to social media
and ethics, like, I definitely.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Understand that we all come from an ethical space, right
ethical background, but I also like to remember that white
supremacist capitalism created those ethics, which means that I have
to do additional work to decolonize those ethics to even
make sure that they make sense for what it is
that I do and how it is that I approach
things right, Because I mean, ethically, you're not supposed to
take anything from a client, but when you work with
(12:58):
black clients, you might just now had separated yourself from
your client in such a way that you will not
be able to build the type of therapeutic relationship that
you are needing to build in order to do the
work that you are trying to do, especially for the
sensitive work that I talk about. Right, I'm in sexuality,
which means that I mean, I mean we're talking about
that nitty gritty that download, that.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Thing we be doing in the bedrooms.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
So I have found that I have to make sure
that I am outlining what my parameters are. And it's
like no questions in the DMS, no requests for therapy
in the DMS. If you want therapy, email, if you
want therapy, go to this website, but we are not
engaging with you in this way in the DMS. If
it looks inappropriate, we simply do not answer. We will
(13:40):
delete it, we'll block it, we'll restrict, we'll do what
we got to do on our end, because we recognize
that the onus is on us the owners, is not
on the people who are on social media. They're just
using social media the way that they've been known or
taught to use social media. So the DMS is not
my favorite place to be, which means I simply am not.
We check those things like once or twice a month,
(14:01):
which means that if you DM does Finn to see it.
But as far as the other pieces of what I
think of around as ethical behavior on social media, being
yourself right, it has already been established I think by
doctor Kim. Remember that you are a brand, but you
are also a person. So being yourself on social media
(14:23):
is one of the surefiest ways to make sure that
you're probably not lying on social media either, right, and
to stay in your lane, whatever that lane is that
you have carved out for yourself. I'm not saying don't
talk about nothing else. Ever, I'm saying that I would
constantly be asking myself why am I posting the thing
that I'm posting. What do I hope that my ideal
person is getting from the content that I'm wanting to
(14:47):
put out. Some things are appropriate for a conversation in
a group chat with your friends, Some things are appropriate
for the therapy for Black Girls Thrive Tribe, Some things
are appropriate for your journal. Everything is not appropriate for
social media. But I think that sometimes because we have
been in an oversharing culture, sometimes we lack the discernment
(15:09):
to know. And I think that if you know this
about yourself, if you know that you're not always sure
what should be on social media or on the side
of note, you don't have to do social media to
market yourself or to even feel your practice. It's one
way to feel your practice. And if you can't be
sure about what is okay and not okay to post,
then maybe just don't post anything until you figure it out.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
I love all that. Yeah, I agree with so much
of this, And I was just thinking when Josephine said
she had a social media manager, I was like, oh man,
that like imposter center, And part of my brain was like,
I would never get to a place where I died
a social media manager. But then I was like, but wait,
there's so much that ethically we need, and so it's
so important, especially like starting your own practice or working
(15:53):
in practice, that you just value yourself enough to do
things right, like to have people that are checking things
that can even be outside of the mental health field,
to decipher things to say like is it even relevant
for the audience that you're trying to reach, is it understandable,
is it ethical? Like what kind of boundaries says it cross?
I think a lot of times it's easy to get
(16:14):
into your own silo of what you think is important
or what you think has to be said, and even
be kind of emotion minded about it. A lot of
times urgency of situations or things that we see today
happening in the world, you're like, Okay, I gotta say something.
I have to act now. And it is so wise,
especially with social media that lasts forever, to just have
people that support you and check and balances and yeah,
(16:35):
to care about yourself and your practice and what you're
trying to cultivate and the service you're trying to provide,
to set yourself up well to do those things.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, And you know, this really leads me to a
different question around like building a team, right. So I
think several of you have talked about having people that
work in your practice. Josephine you talked about having a
social media manager, and doctor Orioel you mentioned we will
block or delete messages, which makes me think that's not
you doing that, that you have some team members, And
so I would love to hear like how you have
(17:05):
grown your practices, right, whether that means hiring new clinicians
to work in your practice or hiring these other professionals
like social media managers, because again I was not taught
any hr in grad school about like what it means
to like hire people and benefits and all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And it's so much.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Because we are building I think where we find ourselves
now in twenty twenty three, we're building very different kinds
of practices in mental health businesses than we probably would
have been like fifteen years ago. Right, So what has
that process been like for you to figure out, like
how to hire new people in your practice or in
your business, and what do you wish you would have
known before you started that process.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
I got an attorney, let me tell you, because I
wasn't trying to make any legal mistakes and any differences
between an employee versus an independent contract to Honey draft
this contract for me, so I know exactly what my
parameters are. And I think it's so important to recognize
when you're moving into private practice and you're stepping into
(18:04):
the space of business ownership. Business ownership doesn't mean you
have to do it all. It means you're aware. It
means you're knowledgeable, It means you have vision and foresight,
but you don't have to be the person doing every
single piece of it. So surrounding yourself with the individuals
with the knowledge that you need in order to be successful,
whether that's somebody who can be a business consultant to you,
(18:27):
an attorney of course, your accountant or your tax planner.
All of those kind of people are so important in
addition to finding clinicians who will come alongside and journey
with you on your vision.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
It's my perspective. Ooh what you said.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm just like yes, because everybody wants to stand in
the space of I know everything, all the time, all
at once, and then, just like bay Back, stay in
your lane. My lane is therapy, my lane is speaking,
My lane is teaching. These are things that I know
how to do. These are things that I've been trained
how to do. You know who don't know how to
do accounting very well?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Me?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know who don't understand the algorithm because that's not
my job. So what I've found to be helpful, or
at least the first person that I hired was the
person that was going to help me to streamline my
processes so I could spend more time in my zone
of genius rather than in my zone of slight incompetence. Right,
I don't want to call the insurance company. I'm not
(19:23):
interested in putting people on the schedule. I'm not interested
in answering emails back and forth. I'm not interested in
figuring out what to post. And when I'm not interested, Look,
when I tell you that I'm hands off of my
social media right now, I mean I am hands off.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I'd be like, hey, where did you find that?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
How did you know that? I would say that, ooh girl,
Apparently I have an entire cash of things that I've
said at one place to another, from podcasts to written
things all over the Internet that my assistant pulls from
and creates beautiful social media graphics from. I'm just like, so,
all I got to do is mind my businesses, stay
in my life, with it, with it. So for me,
(20:02):
part of it has been, yes, get the lawyer, get
the people that know how to do the thing, sometimes
finding the people who have already done it right. So
I mentioned before that I was part of the Private
Practice Academy which is now the Legacy Wellness Lounge by
doctor Jetta Robinson, and it taught me a lot of
what I needed to know right And I got to
ask her questions to make sure I was sticking.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
In my lane and knowing when it.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Was time to hire somebody else, because that's also what
a good accountant will do. They will let you know
when you can actually afford to hire somebody else, what
you can pay them, and how many hours they can
actually work. That's also how I know another assistant is
about to be onboarded because the money is.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
About to come through.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So it's about trying to not trying to figure out
everything on your own. I think that a lot of
us have been taught and brought up in, you know,
being a superwoman. Right, you still are in this space
of hyperindependence. You are still in this space of trying
to say all the things that you could do by yourself,
and no one is saying that you can't do. We're
saying that you don't have to. You don't have to,
(21:07):
so find a team work interdependently. Does that mean that
sometimes you're gonna have to let somebody go.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Yes, I have been there. I've had to let somebody go.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
They didn't understand the value of the work that I
was doing and they were basically sabotage my business. On
the low, I'm looking like, yes, you will have to
let somebody go. Yes it's gonna hurt, but you know
what you feel, your feelings, you figure out where you
need to shure some things up in your policies, and
then you keep it moving. You don't stop there, right
what they say, You're not gonna stop driving your car
because you get one flat tire, and you're certainly not
(21:37):
gonna shoot out the rest of the tires just because
of one flat. You're gonna change the tire and figure
out what you need to do differently to make sure
that you continue to get to the destination that you
have charted for yourself. And that's all I'm asking people
to do. Stop trying to do everything by yourself.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I totally agree. Today somebody is cleaning my house, and
I think sometimes it can be hard to accept. You know,
you've gotten to a place, you have higher education, You
get money by the virtue of the work that you do,
and it means that you are brought into certain kinds
of privilege, like in a discriminative sense that you now
(22:13):
have access to And I know for me that sometimes
that feels bad. And when I start to notice that
emotional energy is going into figuring something out, that's the
mindfulness bill for me that like I probably do not
have the expertise like doctor Donna was saying, and so
I don't have to figure everything out. I mean, I
(22:34):
think I'm the only one here that is still in
group practice, and so I was just going to say
the things that keep me in group practice are the
things that people have mentioned, like somebody to do the accounting,
an attorney, like the bill or the scheduler. But they're
all things that I am observing and paying attention to
while I'm in group practice because these are the things
that I don't know about. And I think you were
(22:56):
also mentioned in Doctor Donna. It's important to say consultation
with people who are building private practices, like they'll check you,
just give you advice on things that you know, so
you don't have to blaze the trail as hard as
they did. And that's so important. One of the things
that I am in the process of setting up now
(23:17):
is a community advisory board to give me input about
what would be beneficial in terms of outreach to the community.
And that's gonna be made up of community stakeholders like
other adults in different jobs, but also teenagers and use
the people I want to serve. And so that's going
to become an important part of my practice moving forward.
(23:37):
While I'm still in the group practice, but don't be
bound by the chains of group practice just because you
think you have to do these things yourself, because like
doctor Dandre and doctor Donna said, you don't have to
do them all.
Speaker 6 (23:51):
Yeah, And I'm in the process of hiring very slowly.
I'm a little scared of building a team if I'm
going to be very honest, because as I am pretty
new in the field myself, so I am finding that
I mean to hire folks who are not only experts
in what they do, but hire folks who can work
(24:14):
with me and work really well with me and my style.
So I'll use Diva as an example. Diva is very
self sufficient and very independent in her work style. She'll
text me and say, hey, I need this and this,
and I'm able to go and check off everything that
she needs and she's able to go and do it
on her own, and then all of a sudden, my
(24:35):
social media looks pretty and then I'm like, thank you,
I appreciate it. I found that I sometimes can be
a little bit too hands on. So I think having
someone who challenges me to let go and forces me
to trust them allows me to be able to see
the benefit of their growth. Because I worked with a
(24:58):
VA before, I think I was just two hands on
with and I was like, no, lie, y'all on a space.
I think I was micromanaging her a little bit because
I was so nervous about how she was doing things,
and I realized that I didn't trust myself at the
time to let someone else do the work. So even
(25:19):
as I'm now like contemplating bringing on someone to answer
the emails and the phone calls and such, I know
part of the growth process of being a boss is
being able to let it go and trust that others
are going to be able to do just as good
of a job as you, even if it looks different
from you. And also one other thing is that the
(25:44):
ideas that folks bring could be what you not necessarily
are expecting, but could very well be what your business needs.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I did not.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
Really like social media, like I said earlier before, but
I think once I got on a schedule, Diva has
this amazing like spreadsheet where she like checks things off
and I check things off, and it's just a It's
a beautiful system. And I think when we were able
to really hone things in and hold things down, then
it made it feel more doable. So I would name
(26:18):
that like the person has to fit you and be
able to be a good match, which is why interviews
are really important. References are really important. But I wouldn't
just skip over that process just because you need someone
in the job. If you're getting someone, make sure that
they're a good fit.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
More from our conversation after the break, bring up a
really good point, Josephine, in terms of what's the saying
like high or slow and fire fans. Right, So I
love that you are taking your time with hiring because
(26:58):
it's a huge decision, right, like who were you especially
some of those very early team members, Like you're bringing
somebody in to really intimately help you build this thing,
right that you have probably felt really close to. So
I don't think that is a bad thing at all.
And doctor apple White, you mentioned like that this is
why you are still a part of a group practice, right,
because you don't want to deal with many of these
(27:19):
other things, which is a totally like fair and valid decision, right.
So I definitely don't want us to give the impression
that like private practice is the thing, being the owner
of a private practice is the thing for everybody, because
it definitely is not right So I wonder if we
can talk a little bit about that, because I think
all of you were in other places. Before the three
of you who are owned your own private practice, you
(27:40):
were in other locations. So talk a little bit about
like getting those positions, and like for people who maybe
don't want to own a private practice, like what are
some of the benefits of working in some of these
other locations.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
I think, for me, why I stay connected to a
group practice other than what I've already said I don't
want to deal with the other stuff at this point
in time, is that I value being connected to other people.
I think it's taken me a while to find a
situation where I worked with people who cared about clients
in similar ways as I did. It's kind of like
(28:11):
what Josephine was talking about and having a good fit
for the people that work for you, you also need
a good fit of the people that work with you.
And there are definitely settings that I've been in, especially
because you know, I'm mostly a DBT therapist and so
working with people with borderline personality disorder and complex traumas,
and I think in so many other places it's easy
to be cynical about working with these types of clients
(28:33):
or like judge them too harshly. I mean it's in
kind of the like the behavior pattern of the diagnosis
that they split people, right, and so like teams that
work with a lot of people with borderline personality disorder
are often split where some people really love this client
and everybody else really like I mean, hates is a
strong word, but it does feel that way sometimes on
(28:55):
some teams. And I just didn't want to be around
people that held up cynicism more often than that, and
so it has taken me a while to find people
who are like that. So the group practice that I'm
in is woman owned, which has been good. I think
Utah comes with its own cultural challenges, but I feel
(29:16):
like people have commitment to openness, agreeableness, but not to
a fault. So all of these things kind of make
it worth my while to continue being connected with people.
I also, at the time felt like I wanted to
build expertise, or.
Speaker 7 (29:32):
Maybe not even build expertise, but the perception of expertise,
because let's be real, I feel like there are some
preconceived notions about what it means to be a black
woman working, and so it's always been in my mind
like I want the best, Like wherever I am, I
want the best.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I want to be with the best people. And so
a lot of DBT, especially is like who you've worked with,
kind of similar to academia. Who are your mentors and
how col to the people that like developed the whole thing,
which yes is buying into power structures and is a
reality of the work I think. And so that's another
reason why I've stayed in group practice, because I'm trying
(30:11):
to build proximity to those people while I'm building my
own name and the kinds of work that I want
to do.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
One of the things that I did enjoy about functioning
in a group practice setting was definitely the ability to
connect with colleagues, to engage in consultation, to bounce something
off of somebody else as you're in between sessions, if
there's something you were stuck on. But it was the
ease for me. It was the ease of just being
(30:38):
able to come into a furnished office with all the
office supplies that I needed, and somebody to send the
facts and contact the insurance companies. All of those pieces
were really beautiful and useful. And I think that when
we're considering. At least what I gathered from being a
part of a group practice was understanding the value of
(31:01):
what is provided by that group practice owner. I think
a lot of times in clinician communities we hear, well,
what's a the percentage that someone should take if you're
functioning in a group practice, and we sometimes will devalue
all that is being offered to you, the staff, the
support somebody else to answer the phone for you, or
(31:22):
return an email, or communicate with somebody's PCP, or get
that release of information from the client, or run that payment.
That ease is beautiful and it's worthwhile. You just have
to determine when you are functioning in that kind of setting,
is that what you need? And if you're finding yourself
stuck or frustrated in that kind of setting, is it
(31:42):
because you don't just want the autonomy of being able
to come in and see your clients and go. Are
you really wanting to be in the seat the person
who makes the decisions, the change maker, the visionary? And
for me that was the challenge. I wanted to be
the visionary and I wanted to walk out my own
vision as a closed to continuing to operate in the
practice space.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
I do think that's so valuable. I've just been over here,
like formulating a metaphor, because everything has pros and cons.
So we lived in an apartment for years, like probably
for eight years of our married life we lived in
an apartment, and then in the pandemic, we moved over
to this house. And I can vividly remember, like in
(32:23):
the summertime, seeing overgrown weeds and stuff coming out of
the sidewalks and I was.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Like, who manages this? And I'm like, oh wait, it's me.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
And I like there were so many times in that
first year I'm like, oh my gosh, where is the
leasing office? Like I don't want to I see my sidewalk,
and I think that at the end of the day,
it's like I have my own space, Like I have
the ability to create what I want. And that, to me,
I think is like the comparison to group passes versus
private practice, Like there's sometimes where you really want the
(32:55):
leasing office. I have two young children, Like there's something
that is probably more of a priority than I would
like it to be. And Yeah, that mindfulness that doctor
Deander talked about, just being aware of what is leading
to the consternation. I think is so important because, like
I said, everything has pros and cons.
Speaker 6 (33:13):
I want to dismantle the notion that you have to
pick one or the other of picking private practice or
working in an agency, because right now I'm doing both.
I'm working for a local, low cost agency primarily serving
the folks of color and the agency doing trauma therapy,
specifically in couples of family therapy, mostly along with having
(33:34):
my own private practice. So I find that I kind
of get the best of both worlds. Of course, I'm
managing my own thing, I'm paying my own liability insurance,
all the things, I'm doing all that on my own,
but I still have a community, and I still have
a place to be able to go and learn from
the cases that I have there and fun factor appoint
(33:56):
doctor Jackson. I'm pretty newly licensed, So I find that
being able to have that balance between the two helps
me be able to practice that sense of independence and
confidence in my clinical decisions while still being able to
have a spot to ask those questions as needed. And
(34:18):
I mean, luckily, scheduling wise, it works out to have both.
So I think, if it's possible, it's worth considering doing both.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
At the same time, I love everything that y'all brought
up and just come left with.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Me real quick. Okay, don't come for me too hot.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
But I think that we are in a pay me
what I'm worth era where people don't want to do
any work to earn what they're worth. Number one, No
one can never pay your worth. You are a priceless
human being, so your worth will never be paid.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
You can be paid what you're asking for what you desire,
but your worth as a human being far surpasses any
dollar amount that anybody.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Will ever be able to give you one.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Number two, I find that people want to be in
a boss era, but don't want to do boss stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
You didn't boss up right.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
You want all the benefits of being the boss, but
you don't want to have done the learning. You don't
want to have to do the billing. You don't want
to have to do the email sending, the calling of
the insurance. You don't want to have to figure out
the credentialing. You don't want to have to figure out
any of the stuff. You don't even want to figure
out who you got to hire. But you want the
(35:28):
money that the boss is getting, but you don't want
the hours that the boss is putting in, because let's
be real, I never worked for a group practice, so
I won't even begin to pretend to claim that I
work for a few agencies before I went into private practice.
And one thing that I loved was I go in
at this time, I come out at this time, and
you know what I'm doing after nothing, nothing, but I
(35:52):
own this business, which means that this baby is my
baby twenty four seven. It means that while I do
get breaks, and I'm not saying that I don't, I'm
saying that my baby is always on my mind. Because
you're always a parent, somebody gonna need something at some point,
usually while you're on vacation.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Guess who has to answer you do it.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So let's be real, It's okay to not want to
be the boss. It's okay to want to work for
someone else and to just find the right place that
allows you to live the life of flexibility that you're
probably looking for at a pay that makes you smile
just a little bit, right. And I feel like that's
something that I've been offering to the therapist that work
for me and even my assistant. I'm like, I need
(36:34):
you to create your own schedule because I'm not gonna
do it. I need you to know that between Christmas
Eve and New Year, we're closed. If you decide to
see a client, that's your business, that's not my business.
But there will be no support because we are off.
We are closed, The assistant is off. Everybody's off. But
you chose to work, that's you'll business, right. But I
(36:56):
think that sometimes we're not being honest with ourselves. I
think there's a culture around boss hood, but there's not
a culture of learning bosshood and quiet as it's kept and.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Not somebody's gonna be mad.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Beyonce doesn't cosplay some stuff for y'all that got y'all
all in your feelings a little bit. First she was
a boss and now she is a worker, and y'all
are trying to follow Beyonce, and I need y'all to stop,
find your own center, figure out what it is that
you're trying to do, and what it is that you're
trying to build, and stop trying to be what you.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Believe that you're supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Because somebody told you that there is a lack of
value in you as a person if you have a
job rather than.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Own a job. I mean the true theater to be said.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Wait, you know, oh you know, I love you, but
we will nill out any queenslander. But your point is
well taken. Your point is well taken.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
I did it's gonna say, I don't. Anyway, I was
gonna say something doctor Donna said, kind of like right
back to the lift. I did forget that one of
the reasons why I like working for agencies right now,
especially as a psychologist, is that they have put in
the work to facilitate training programs, and that's something that's
(38:11):
valuable to me, being able to work at places that
have accreditation to handle trainees. But then I think also
what doctor Donna was saying is that it's not impossible
to do that in private practice either, because it seems
like you guys have cultivated a situation where you're hiring
people you can still keep that mentorship train alive. It
just takes work, and so I just wanted to pull that.
(38:34):
I don't know how I caught that from everything that
you said, but I did pick up on the mentorship
piece and just wanted to highlight that because I think
that that is important, at least it's important to me
as a black woman to be able to feel like
I'm giving back to the pipeline of psychology. And it
doesn't have to be every black woman's value to give back.
But I think why I appreciate what you were saying
(38:55):
is that you can still give back and have boundaries
and values and figure out how you want that can
figure that in your life.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
And your career.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
More from our conversation after the break, before Therapy for
Black Girls was my full time thing, like, I was
the director of a counsing center, and before any of
(39:24):
this was even a dream, I saw myself like retiring
from a cousing center. Like I love college student mental health,
so I definitely want to put a plug in there
for people because I think sometimes there's this idea of
like not wanting to work in agencies, right, but I
loved I've worked in like probably four or five different
college student mental health centers and loved my time in
each of them, and I think that is probably some
(39:45):
of the best training experiences that I've ever had. So
for anybody who's looking for additional agency opportunities college student
mental health. It's also great because there's like a timing
to the year, right, like you have busy fall and
spring semesters, then not a lot of students in the summer,
and so that's a great thing to think about. So
I also want to hear you all talk about how
have you figured out your pacing as a therapist?
Speaker 6 (40:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
So, I think that there are lots of conversations For
some people who come from agencies, there is this idea
of like other people building your caseloads. So you might
have to see ten clients in a day because that's
what the job tells you that you have to do.
How have you figured out, like how to manage your caseloads?
So how many people do you see during a day?
What have you figured out in terms of like a
rhythm for you to still do the kind of clinical
(40:29):
work that you want to do.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
I started off in my private practice in a survival mentality.
My personal story is I was working at a group
practice and then I realized that I wanted to start
my own business. And because like you, doctor White, I'm
in Colorado, there are very few black therapists around. I
was fortunate enough to take my clients with me into
(40:52):
my private practice, and I thought that I needed to
be able to like just work as much much as
possible to be able to make sure I was making
ends meet, and if I could go back, I would
not do that again. I think I was so worried
in the beginning of like what if I don't make enough?
What if I can't sustain this? And I think that
(41:14):
survival deficit mindset burned me out because fun fact I
started my private practice as I was planning my wedding
at the same time was actually disgusting. And I was
literally doing like eight to ten sessions a day and
then planning my wedding in the evening from like eight
to one of them. It was absolutely horrible. I do
(41:36):
not recommend anybody do that. So now I see between
five and eight on a really long day, but between
like five and eight in a day, and it gives
me time to do things like this, which I don't
think I would have been able to have time for before.
It gives me time to consult I'm now an adjunct
professor at the University of Denver, like it gives me
(41:58):
time to be able to do other things while still
seeing the clients that I want to see. I think
my pacing also has to do with being able to
say no, not every client. I know Doctor Donna said
this in the last episode, and it like drilled into
my brain. Not every client is a good client for you.
(42:19):
So if you have to pass along the referral to
somebody else who's a better fit, it will come back,
like it will come back and you will have that
person who is a good fit I was gonna say
to doctor Data. I think that also helped me set
my pacing because now more than ever in my past,
(42:40):
I've said no.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
A lot more.
Speaker 6 (42:43):
I was supposed to teach through the summer, I said no.
I was supposed to see four extra people. I was
like no, And I think it's allowing me to make
sure that I'm doing the best work I can because
I actually am present and awake for.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
All of it. My answer is math and science go
with me.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
So Number one, I did the math. How much money
do I need to pay my bills? But then how
much money do I want to live a life that
does it have me in a constant state of word
like what's my magic number?
Speaker 3 (43:18):
And then I work backwards, right, if.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
You want to make one hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
You do your math.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
How many weeks out of the year do you want
to work? Like, how much time off are you going
to take? You subtract that you divide the magic number
by the number of weeks you actually intend to work.
How many days now do you intend to work? You
divide again. How many clients would you prefer to see?
You divide again. It will tell you how much you
need to charge in order to live the life that
(43:44):
you are trying to live. So the math told me
that I needed to see but somewhere between fifteen and
twenty clients a week in order to meet my magic number.
And then my prices increased, which means that I didn't
need to see that many people. But I kept it
because I was just like, well, I want a little
extra money because you know, a girl trying and go
on a beach somewhere and she want to buy a
new babas cool. But what eventually went from four to
(44:07):
five days a week of working turn to three days steady,
turn to two days steady. I'm on one and on
that one I see up to eight clients in that
one day. I've also had to take a step back
and look at the things that I'm actually doing right.
I'm writing a book, i am teaching, I am creating
a training program for a large organization. I'm looking at
(44:30):
these things that I am doing that are also bringing
in money, and I'm just like, well, at what point
do you say I'm gonna let go of doing so
much of this so I could do more of this?
And I think that sometimes we be in that wholesol
ground culture so much that we don't stop and look
around to see did you get to the place that
you said that you wanted to go and it's the
(44:51):
destination the same? Did anything change? Do you want to
take the scenic group now? Do you want to make
a pit stop? Do you want to pause for a
little bit? That sometimes we forget about those things and
we get so into the hustle and grind to do
that we don't stop and allow space for pivot, for change,
for evolution.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
I love everything that Josephine and doctor Donna said because
I can relate to what Josephine said in terms of
just like, let me hoard, let me gather all the
clients so that I can make the money and reach
the goals. And I love what doctor Donna was saying
in terms of aligning my life with my values and
what's important to me and being on the sand, dipping
my feet and the water and having time to align
(45:31):
my life of what is important and allowing myself to evolve.
But I think the thing that we don't talk about
enough because we jump into this hushle and grind culture
is that y'all need to establish a solid business plan.
That's where the math is going to be mathing, That's
where the vision is going to be clear. That's where
the plan for pivots and for alternative streams of income
(45:52):
and cash flow analysis and understanding of what your break
even costs are going to be.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
That's where all that happens.
Speaker 5 (45:59):
You don't have to figure this out on the fly,
and if you don't know how to do it, there's
someone out there who does. There are small business associations
who can guide you through these processes that allow you
the opportunity to make educated determinations about how you're going
to go about establishing your practice, finding your flow, identifying
what your stamina is and ultimately that's what's going to
(46:22):
carry you and keep you grounded. So that's not a
moment where it's like I feel so exhausted. So I'm
moving from eight clients to four and now you're math
and mathing for your bills or for your overhead, or
to pay your contractors or to pay your employees. You've
got to be knowledgeable about how your business runs. And
the only way you're going to be able to do
that is to have a solid, comprehensive business line.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yeah. Now, I'm really just appreciated this conversation today, such
wisdom and all this. I was just gonna say that
your values orientation is important for me, and also important
not to get too caught up in any one story
of who who you are and what you can do,
because that can make some stuck points in those pivots.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
I think.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
So I trained to be a child psychologist, and so
all this time I came to Utah, I worked in
college counseling, and I was like, but wait, I'm a
child psychologist. But I too loved college counseling. But sometimes
it doesn't even stick in my conceptualization of my identity
because I'm a child psychologist, right, But really who I
(47:26):
am is somebody who wants to provide holistic care, and
that's what you're doing in a college. And so it
worked for me. But then now as a child psychologist
with children. My after school time is precious, and so
I don't want to build a practice of only seeing
kids an outpatient from three to eight o'clock at night.
(47:50):
It's just not how I want my life to be
at this point. And I can feel guilty about that
because I'm a child psychologist, or I can figure out
what are the things that really describe me from a
value standpoint and how can I move to that? So
I don't like seeing more than five clients in the day.
When I worked in impatient, we had a case load
(48:13):
of seven or eight, but you didn't have to see
all of them every day, So I didn't see more
than five or six clients a day. I find, especially
doing more DBT work than I used to, it's harder
to see more than six because of all of the
patient planning that you're having to do, especially like with
my clients, you're thinking about them all the time. They
(48:33):
might be texting you, like there might be some crises
to manage. And so I've really learned to just not
tie myself too strongly to any kind of narrative of
what I'm supposed to be, and that has provided the
balance that I've needed. I don't want to see clients
before ten o'clock because I'm not going to get there
(48:54):
on time, like I've got ADHD, I have to get
my kid off to school. We're gonna make it so
it scheduled people past ten. And then I found that
there were different things that I was willing to do
in telehealth when we were working during the pandemic, then
when I was working in person, and then hybrid has
been like a disaster of like values articulation because there's
(49:17):
so many options and you really kind of have to
know what works well for you. And so yeah, not
getting stuck into any one narrative of who I'm supposed
to be has helped me.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I love that. Thank y'all so much for sharing all
that information. I think that is such a beautiful gift
to offer the community. Just the idea of building your
career around the life that you actually want to have,
right like, not the other way around, and really kind
of figuring out how to do this professional thing in
addition to life and not really having it be the
thing that's driving all of our decisions. So we do
(49:48):
need to wrap up, because we could continue to go
on because y'all have been such incredible guests, so let's
just go around and remind everyone where we can find you.
We'll start with you, Josephine, with your website as well
as your social media handle.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
Everyone. You can find me at vmpupc A MPa WPC.
That's my website name, that's my social media. I'm on Instagram,
I'm on LinkedIn. I got a whole lot of love
after my last episode, especially for folks who are pre licensed,
so with super encouraging so richet.
Speaker 5 (50:18):
You can find me at Epiphany Psychotherapy dot com and
you can find me on Instagram at doctor Period d
Jazzing on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
What about you, doctor Alpoyd.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
You can find me at my group practice website uc
ebt dot com or on social media at applesid on
on social.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
And you can find me at doctor Period Dona Orioo
on Instagram, on TikTok, I think I might even be
on Facebook. You can also join the free Fabulist Infucked
community on Facebook well there for a limited time. And
if you're in the DMV, we're doing the Plan to
Orgasm masterclass come up in June, so I'm super excited
(51:02):
about that. Although we also have the retreat coming up
in October, we go on to Mexico.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
I love that, Doctor Jackson. Can we get you to
repeat your website and your social media handles please?
Speaker 5 (51:11):
You can find me at Epiphanypsychotherapy dot com and on
Instagram at doctor period D.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
Jackson.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Well, thank you all for joining me again this week
and sharing more of your time. I really appreciate you
in the service that you are offering to our community
and sharing your wisdom. I appreciate it. I'm so glad
Doctor Apple White, doctor Jackson, doctor Orioo, and Josephine were
able to join me for this conversation. To learn more
about them and their work, visit the show notes at
(51:41):
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three twelve and
be sure to text two of your girls right now
and tell them to check out the episode as well.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check
out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into
this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
(52:03):
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join US at Community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com. This episode was produced by FRIEDA.
Lucas and the Lease Ellis, and editing was done by
Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again
this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with
(52:25):
you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 3 (52:31):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
(00:32):
find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
(00:58):
joining me for session three twelve of the Therapy for
Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
a word from our sponsors. We've had dozens of therapists
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(01:19):
friendships to meditation, and even horror movies. But have you
ever wondered what it takes to become a licensed therapist? Well,
the road isn't paved in gold, more like a few
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(01:40):
looking to enter the field, and everyone in between. Joining
me today are therapist doctor Kimberly Applewhite based in Utah,
doctor DeAndrea Jackson based in Ohio, doctor Donna Oriowo in Washington,
d C. And Josephine and Paul Green in Colorado. Collegues
and I got candid about our journeys and talked about
(02:02):
the different ways to market yourself and increase your caseload,
how to navigate social media and ethics, and weighing your
options between starting your own private practice are working in
a group setting our agency. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on
social media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join
(02:25):
us over in the sister circle to talk more in
depth about the episode. You can join us at community
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well,
I am so excited that all of you are able
to join us for part three now of our incredible
conversation of becoming a therapist. Who knew that this was
spin into like its own little mini series, But I
(02:47):
think the community has just valued your voices so much so,
I'm glad that you were all able to join us
again today. So one of the questions that we have
not been able to get to that I really want
to spend some time talking about is the idea of
marketing yourself as a private practice therapist or even if
you're not in private practice, you still want a caseload, right,
And this is definitely one of those things that they
(03:08):
did not teach us in grad school. I don't know
if grad schools are teaching this now, but definitely when
I graduated, there was no marketing, like how do you
even get your first client? So what did you do
or what are you currently doing to market yourself? And
what would you like other therapists to know about different
avenues or different opportunities they might have to market themselves
as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
One thing I used with social media, especially when I
was getting started, I needed people to understand what it
was exactly that I was doing as a therapist that
may not meet whatever they think a therapist is supposed
to do, right, so as a sex and relationship therapist,
but with a focus on colorism and texturalism. A lot
(03:49):
of the work that I was doing is let me
educate you about what this thing is and why you
might need this thing. So educate from that perspective in
social media was a really great help because it opened
the door for people to understand exactly what it was.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I was doing, why I was doing, and why they.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Might want to come and see me specifically, because, despite
what they say profile on psychology today, therapy for black
girls and whatever, plethora of other spaces is not enough.
That's more passive, and I wanted to be more active.
So in addition to that type of marketing, I talked
to therapists in this area.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I'm like, who are.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The people who see my people who might at some
point be on overflow and need somebody to service backup?
Like me, pick me, choose me, love me. So that's
what I was, especially when I started.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
I feel like so many of those points were so wise,
Doctor Donna, because I was just talking to somebody on
the phone before I got on here. So my background
is in child psychology, but I don't do a lot
of assessments now, so I'll pretty much only do them
for BIPOD clients or when one of my black clinician's
colleagues refers them to me because I really do not
like report writings like anti marketing. But I was telling
(05:09):
this parrot because they were talking about how hard it
is to find black therapists, especially here in Utah where
I'm based, and I'm like, I think we've got this
underground railroad situation where we know who will do what,
and so I do think it's so wise to talk
to other therapists in the area. It may seem like competition,
but because we're all doing kind of different things, even
(05:30):
if we have the same focus on audiences, we might
have a different flavor, different priorities, and so it's not competition.
And I would love to decolonize competition, Like I think
there's enough for all of us if we're working together.
And so I really just value a lot of what
you said, and also just the value of social media.
That was something that I was taught on one of
(05:51):
my post fellowships that was public health emphasized. Like all
of the doctors, all of the fellows, they were all
on social media, and that's how a lot of times
you get to see what's going on in the world,
what other people are saying, to exchange ideas, and then
that becomes its own marketing across the country, especially for
psychologists who have sie packed capability. If you apply for sypack,
(06:15):
which means that you can see people in many states,
over thirty states, so people who were just limiting their
marketing to their state. I also have just looked at
how being careful about how I am describing myself. Our
company takes lera client. Soleira is a third party contractor.
(06:36):
It works with a lot of employee assistance programs. But
for like pretty expansive companies, and on those platforms, you
only get so much space to describe who you are,
and so then it's important that how you communicate things
has the flavor of who you are too, and not
just what you do. Because I work at an evidence
(06:57):
based place, that's how it markets itself. Then my first
profiles sound a little bit like an evidence paced robot,
like I do I do, and I'm like I read
them all recently. I'm like, this is not even who
I am anymore, Like I'm just a therapist.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
You could kick it.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
And so just being able to communicate that stuff in
your language, I think is important if you're going to
go those traditional marketing routes, because you are still a
brand like even if you're fresh out of school, you're
a brand.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Like doctor Donna said, people who already have the audience
that you're looking for. And if I'm looking to work
with black women, then I'm gonna be talking to hairstylists
about what it is that I do and how I
can offer support to them and to their clientele. Because
you know, we've said in the salon chair and we
get to talking and people will talk about their problems
(07:44):
and does the line is not always the place to
get the skills and the resources. So just being a
walking marketing opportunity for yourself talking to anyone who might
have your clientele as a captive audience, I think would be.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I think that they're so much good that has been said.
What I would add is that even though there are
all of these traditional sort of ways of marketing, like
social media, well I guess social media is becoming a
bit more traditional talking to other therapists, talking to other doctors.
I have personally found that working with other agencies that
(08:22):
are full and overflowing has been a really great way
to also get in the door. And I find that
talking to many different folks who are not necessarily in
the mental health world or connected to the mental health
world tend to really not have a strong understanding of
what we do. So I find myself even there was
a time at the airport not too long ago, or
(08:44):
I ended up like explaining what it means to be
a trauma therapist and it opened up this whole conversation.
I was even able to get a referral from that.
So I think it's really important to remember that our
referrals can come from even very obscure and peculiar places.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
So for those of you who've talked about using social
media to market yourself and market your practice, because even
though a lot of this has not been talked about
in grad school, social media definitely is one that I
think there are some conversations now happening, but definitely not
a lot. And we know that our ethical codes typically
are at least five years behind like where we are
(09:20):
in reality as practitioners. So what kinds of things would
you want therapists or future therapists to know about what
it looks like to market yourself on social media? Because
as licensed professionals, I do think we have to be
careful in what marketing looks like and like being sure
not to overpromise things and like just maybe operating outside
of our scope of expertise. So what kinds of things
(09:42):
do you want therapists to know about what looks like
to ethically market yourself on social media.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
I'll go first on this one. I have a social
media manager who is going to be going into public
health for her master's degree and looks through and helps
me plan everything. She's a gift of a human being, Divya,
and I find that if there is a second set
of eyes on what I'm doing and I have to
(10:10):
explain to somebody why I am doing what I'm doing,
and they who are not like Dibya is not a therapist,
will be able to answer or ask me like is
this ethical? It encourages me to make sure and double check.
So I think for me personally, it's been really helpful
to collaborate with other folks and make sure that what
(10:33):
I'm putting out there hits what's ethical without like what
you were saying, doctor Joy over promising. I also think
that social media there's a lot of things that are
really trendy. I personally am not that great at it,
but I think that knowing what trends are actually useful
for us to lean into versus which ones we probably
could like just lean back from is also important when
(10:57):
looking at ethics. But I personally find that if I
have to explain why I'm putting something on social media
to another person, then I'm sure that what I'm doing
I can argue in the future.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
Social media is not where I do most of my marketing,
but I think the thing that's kept me from doing that.
My concern around is this the best place to market
myself has been those dns and whether or not people
might try to reach out and ask questions or divulge
information without me even asking. That might tiptoe us in
to areas of limits of confidentiality and all kinds of
(11:30):
other ethical issues. That's why I've been a little bit
hesitant on social media myself, but I'm open to any
feedback on that.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I have found that you got to state your boundaries,
and you state them early, and you state them often right. So,
as a sex therapist, dig pics are part of my
reality because people will send them, but I don't have
to open it, I don't have to check it, I
don't have to respond. For all of our clients, we
send regular when my that you are not allowed to
(12:01):
ask nary a question in the DM, not even when
your next appointment is that you will be deleted and
blocked because Meta is not known for keeping secrets, and
while we have an ethical obligation to keep your secrets,
Meta does not. And something that had happened a few
years ago where a private conversation that somebody was having
(12:22):
in their DMS was used to prosecute somebody, let us
know that Meta is not your friend, So stay up
out of those dms.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Right. But for me where it comes to social media
and ethics, like, I definitely.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Understand that we all come from an ethical space, right
ethical background, but I also like to remember that white
supremacist capitalism created those ethics, which means that I have
to do additional work to decolonize those ethics to even
make sure that they make sense for what it is
that I do and how it is that I approach
things right, Because I mean, ethically, you're not supposed to
take anything from a client, but when you work with
(12:58):
black clients, you might just now had separated yourself from
your client in such a way that you will not
be able to build the type of therapeutic relationship that
you are needing to build in order to do the
work that you are trying to do, especially for the
sensitive work that I talk about. Right, I'm in sexuality,
which means that I mean, I mean we're talking about
that nitty gritty that download, that.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Thing we be doing in the bedrooms.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
So I have found that I have to make sure
that I am outlining what my parameters are. And it's
like no questions in the DMS, no requests for therapy
in the DMS. If you want therapy, email, if you
want therapy, go to this website, but we are not
engaging with you in this way in the DMS. If
it looks inappropriate, we simply do not answer. We will
(13:40):
delete it, we'll block it, we'll restrict, we'll do what
we got to do on our end, because we recognize
that the onus is on us the owners, is not
on the people who are on social media. They're just
using social media the way that they've been known or
taught to use social media. So the DMS is not
my favorite place to be, which means I simply am not.
We check those things like once or twice a month,
(14:01):
which means that if you DM does Finn to see it.
But as far as the other pieces of what I
think of around as ethical behavior on social media, being
yourself right, it has already been established I think by
doctor Kim. Remember that you are a brand, but you
are also a person. So being yourself on social media
(14:23):
is one of the surefiest ways to make sure that
you're probably not lying on social media either, right, and
to stay in your lane, whatever that lane is that
you have carved out for yourself. I'm not saying don't
talk about nothing else. Ever, I'm saying that I would
constantly be asking myself why am I posting the thing
that I'm posting. What do I hope that my ideal
person is getting from the content that I'm wanting to
(14:47):
put out. Some things are appropriate for a conversation in
a group chat with your friends, Some things are appropriate
for the therapy for Black Girls Thrive Tribe, Some things
are appropriate for your journal. Everything is not appropriate for
social media. But I think that sometimes because we have
been in an oversharing culture, sometimes we lack the discernment
(15:09):
to know. And I think that if you know this
about yourself, if you know that you're not always sure
what should be on social media or on the side
of note, you don't have to do social media to
market yourself or to even feel your practice. It's one
way to feel your practice. And if you can't be
sure about what is okay and not okay to post,
then maybe just don't post anything until you figure it out.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
I love all that. Yeah, I agree with so much
of this, And I was just thinking when Josephine said
she had a social media manager, I was like, oh man,
that like imposter center, And part of my brain was like,
I would never get to a place where I died
a social media manager. But then I was like, but wait,
there's so much that ethically we need, and so it's
so important, especially like starting your own practice or working
(15:53):
in practice, that you just value yourself enough to do
things right, like to have people that are checking things
that can even be outside of the mental health field,
to decipher things to say like is it even relevant
for the audience that you're trying to reach, is it understandable,
is it ethical? Like what kind of boundaries says it cross?
I think a lot of times it's easy to get
(16:14):
into your own silo of what you think is important
or what you think has to be said, and even
be kind of emotion minded about it. A lot of
times urgency of situations or things that we see today
happening in the world, you're like, Okay, I gotta say something.
I have to act now. And it is so wise,
especially with social media that lasts forever, to just have
people that support you and check and balances and yeah,
(16:35):
to care about yourself and your practice and what you're
trying to cultivate and the service you're trying to provide,
to set yourself up well to do those things.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, And you know, this really leads me to a
different question around like building a team, right. So I
think several of you have talked about having people that
work in your practice. Josephine you talked about having a
social media manager, and doctor Orioel you mentioned we will
block or delete messages, which makes me think that's not
you doing that, that you have some team members, And
so I would love to hear like how you have
(17:05):
grown your practices, right, whether that means hiring new clinicians
to work in your practice or hiring these other professionals
like social media managers, because again I was not taught
any hr in grad school about like what it means
to like hire people and benefits and all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And it's so much.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Because we are building I think where we find ourselves
now in twenty twenty three, we're building very different kinds
of practices in mental health businesses than we probably would
have been like fifteen years ago. Right, So what has
that process been like for you to figure out, like
how to hire new people in your practice or in
your business, and what do you wish you would have
known before you started that process.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
I got an attorney, let me tell you, because I
wasn't trying to make any legal mistakes and any differences
between an employee versus an independent contract to Honey draft
this contract for me, so I know exactly what my
parameters are. And I think it's so important to recognize
when you're moving into private practice and you're stepping into
(18:04):
the space of business ownership. Business ownership doesn't mean you
have to do it all. It means you're aware. It
means you're knowledgeable, It means you have vision and foresight,
but you don't have to be the person doing every
single piece of it. So surrounding yourself with the individuals
with the knowledge that you need in order to be successful,
whether that's somebody who can be a business consultant to you,
(18:27):
an attorney of course, your accountant or your tax planner.
All of those kind of people are so important in
addition to finding clinicians who will come alongside and journey
with you on your vision.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
It's my perspective. Ooh what you said.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm just like yes, because everybody wants to stand in
the space of I know everything, all the time, all
at once, and then, just like bay Back, stay in
your lane. My lane is therapy, my lane is speaking,
My lane is teaching. These are things that I know
how to do. These are things that I've been trained
how to do. You know who don't know how to
do accounting very well?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Me?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know who don't understand the algorithm because that's not
my job. So what I've found to be helpful, or
at least the first person that I hired was the
person that was going to help me to streamline my
processes so I could spend more time in my zone
of genius rather than in my zone of slight incompetence. Right,
I don't want to call the insurance company. I'm not
(19:23):
interested in putting people on the schedule. I'm not interested
in answering emails back and forth. I'm not interested in
figuring out what to post. And when I'm not interested, Look,
when I tell you that I'm hands off of my
social media right now, I mean I am hands off.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I'd be like, hey, where did you find that?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
How did you know that? I would say that, ooh girl,
Apparently I have an entire cash of things that I've
said at one place to another, from podcasts to written
things all over the Internet that my assistant pulls from
and creates beautiful social media graphics from. I'm just like, so,
all I got to do is mind my businesses, stay
in my life, with it, with it. So for me,
(20:02):
part of it has been, yes, get the lawyer, get
the people that know how to do the thing, sometimes
finding the people who have already done it right. So
I mentioned before that I was part of the Private
Practice Academy which is now the Legacy Wellness Lounge by
doctor Jetta Robinson, and it taught me a lot of
what I needed to know right And I got to
ask her questions to make sure I was sticking.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
In my lane and knowing when it.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Was time to hire somebody else, because that's also what
a good accountant will do. They will let you know
when you can actually afford to hire somebody else, what
you can pay them, and how many hours they can
actually work. That's also how I know another assistant is
about to be onboarded because the money is.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
About to come through.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So it's about trying to not trying to figure out
everything on your own. I think that a lot of
us have been taught and brought up in, you know,
being a superwoman. Right, you still are in this space
of hyperindependence. You are still in this space of trying
to say all the things that you could do by yourself,
and no one is saying that you can't do. We're
saying that you don't have to. You don't have to,
(21:07):
so find a team work interdependently. Does that mean that
sometimes you're gonna have to let somebody go.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Yes, I have been there. I've had to let somebody go.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
They didn't understand the value of the work that I
was doing and they were basically sabotage my business. On
the low, I'm looking like, yes, you will have to
let somebody go. Yes it's gonna hurt, but you know
what you feel, your feelings, you figure out where you
need to shure some things up in your policies, and
then you keep it moving. You don't stop there, right
what they say, You're not gonna stop driving your car
because you get one flat tire, and you're certainly not
(21:37):
gonna shoot out the rest of the tires just because
of one flat. You're gonna change the tire and figure
out what you need to do differently to make sure
that you continue to get to the destination that you
have charted for yourself. And that's all I'm asking people
to do. Stop trying to do everything by yourself.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I totally agree. Today somebody is cleaning my house, and
I think sometimes it can be hard to accept. You know,
you've gotten to a place, you have higher education, You
get money by the virtue of the work that you do,
and it means that you are brought into certain kinds
of privilege, like in a discriminative sense that you now
(22:13):
have access to And I know for me that sometimes
that feels bad. And when I start to notice that
emotional energy is going into figuring something out, that's the
mindfulness bill for me that like I probably do not
have the expertise like doctor Donna was saying, and so
I don't have to figure everything out. I mean, I
(22:34):
think I'm the only one here that is still in
group practice, and so I was just going to say
the things that keep me in group practice are the
things that people have mentioned, like somebody to do the accounting,
an attorney, like the bill or the scheduler. But they're
all things that I am observing and paying attention to
while I'm in group practice because these are the things
that I don't know about. And I think you were
(22:56):
also mentioned in Doctor Donna. It's important to say consultation
with people who are building private practices, like they'll check you,
just give you advice on things that you know, so
you don't have to blaze the trail as hard as
they did. And that's so important. One of the things
that I am in the process of setting up now
(23:17):
is a community advisory board to give me input about
what would be beneficial in terms of outreach to the community.
And that's gonna be made up of community stakeholders like
other adults in different jobs, but also teenagers and use
the people I want to serve. And so that's going
to become an important part of my practice moving forward.
(23:37):
While I'm still in the group practice, but don't be
bound by the chains of group practice just because you
think you have to do these things yourself, because like
doctor Dandre and doctor Donna said, you don't have to
do them all.
Speaker 6 (23:51):
Yeah, And I'm in the process of hiring very slowly.
I'm a little scared of building a team if I'm
going to be very honest, because as I am pretty
new in the field myself, so I am finding that
I mean to hire folks who are not only experts
in what they do, but hire folks who can work
(24:14):
with me and work really well with me and my style.
So I'll use Diva as an example. Diva is very
self sufficient and very independent in her work style. She'll
text me and say, hey, I need this and this,
and I'm able to go and check off everything that
she needs and she's able to go and do it
on her own, and then all of a sudden, my
(24:35):
social media looks pretty and then I'm like, thank you,
I appreciate it. I found that I sometimes can be
a little bit too hands on. So I think having
someone who challenges me to let go and forces me
to trust them allows me to be able to see
the benefit of their growth. Because I worked with a
(24:58):
VA before, I think I was just two hands on
with and I was like, no, lie, y'all on a space.
I think I was micromanaging her a little bit because
I was so nervous about how she was doing things,
and I realized that I didn't trust myself at the
time to let someone else do the work. So even
(25:19):
as I'm now like contemplating bringing on someone to answer
the emails and the phone calls and such, I know
part of the growth process of being a boss is
being able to let it go and trust that others
are going to be able to do just as good
of a job as you, even if it looks different
from you. And also one other thing is that the
(25:44):
ideas that folks bring could be what you not necessarily
are expecting, but could very well be what your business needs.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I did not.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
Really like social media, like I said earlier before, but
I think once I got on a schedule, Diva has
this amazing like spreadsheet where she like checks things off
and I check things off, and it's just a It's
a beautiful system. And I think when we were able
to really hone things in and hold things down, then
it made it feel more doable. So I would name
(26:18):
that like the person has to fit you and be
able to be a good match, which is why interviews
are really important. References are really important. But I wouldn't
just skip over that process just because you need someone
in the job. If you're getting someone, make sure that
they're a good fit.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
More from our conversation after the break, bring up a
really good point, Josephine, in terms of what's the saying
like high or slow and fire fans. Right, So I
love that you are taking your time with hiring because
(26:58):
it's a huge decision, right, like who were you especially
some of those very early team members, Like you're bringing
somebody in to really intimately help you build this thing,
right that you have probably felt really close to. So
I don't think that is a bad thing at all.
And doctor apple White, you mentioned like that this is
why you are still a part of a group practice, right,
because you don't want to deal with many of these
(27:19):
other things, which is a totally like fair and valid decision, right.
So I definitely don't want us to give the impression
that like private practice is the thing, being the owner
of a private practice is the thing for everybody, because
it definitely is not right So I wonder if we
can talk a little bit about that, because I think
all of you were in other places. Before the three
of you who are owned your own private practice, you
(27:40):
were in other locations. So talk a little bit about
like getting those positions, and like for people who maybe
don't want to own a private practice, like what are
some of the benefits of working in some of these
other locations.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
I think, for me, why I stay connected to a
group practice other than what I've already said I don't
want to deal with the other stuff at this point
in time, is that I value being connected to other people.
I think it's taken me a while to find a
situation where I worked with people who cared about clients
in similar ways as I did. It's kind of like
(28:11):
what Josephine was talking about and having a good fit
for the people that work for you, you also need
a good fit of the people that work with you.
And there are definitely settings that I've been in, especially
because you know, I'm mostly a DBT therapist and so
working with people with borderline personality disorder and complex traumas,
and I think in so many other places it's easy
to be cynical about working with these types of clients
(28:33):
or like judge them too harshly. I mean it's in
kind of the like the behavior pattern of the diagnosis
that they split people, right, and so like teams that
work with a lot of people with borderline personality disorder
are often split where some people really love this client
and everybody else really like I mean, hates is a
strong word, but it does feel that way sometimes on
(28:55):
some teams. And I just didn't want to be around
people that held up cynicism more often than that, and
so it has taken me a while to find people
who are like that. So the group practice that I'm
in is woman owned, which has been good. I think
Utah comes with its own cultural challenges, but I feel
(29:16):
like people have commitment to openness, agreeableness, but not to
a fault. So all of these things kind of make
it worth my while to continue being connected with people.
I also, at the time felt like I wanted to
build expertise, or.
Speaker 7 (29:32):
Maybe not even build expertise, but the perception of expertise,
because let's be real, I feel like there are some
preconceived notions about what it means to be a black
woman working, and so it's always been in my mind
like I want the best, Like wherever I am, I
want the best.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I want to be with the best people. And so
a lot of DBT, especially is like who you've worked with,
kind of similar to academia. Who are your mentors and
how col to the people that like developed the whole thing,
which yes is buying into power structures and is a
reality of the work I think. And so that's another
reason why I've stayed in group practice, because I'm trying
(30:11):
to build proximity to those people while I'm building my
own name and the kinds of work that I want
to do.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
One of the things that I did enjoy about functioning
in a group practice setting was definitely the ability to
connect with colleagues, to engage in consultation, to bounce something
off of somebody else as you're in between sessions, if
there's something you were stuck on. But it was the
ease for me. It was the ease of just being
(30:38):
able to come into a furnished office with all the
office supplies that I needed, and somebody to send the
facts and contact the insurance companies. All of those pieces
were really beautiful and useful. And I think that when
we're considering. At least what I gathered from being a
part of a group practice was understanding the value of
(31:01):
what is provided by that group practice owner. I think
a lot of times in clinician communities we hear, well,
what's a the percentage that someone should take if you're
functioning in a group practice, and we sometimes will devalue
all that is being offered to you, the staff, the
support somebody else to answer the phone for you, or
(31:22):
return an email, or communicate with somebody's PCP, or get
that release of information from the client, or run that payment.
That ease is beautiful and it's worthwhile. You just have
to determine when you are functioning in that kind of setting,
is that what you need? And if you're finding yourself
stuck or frustrated in that kind of setting, is it
(31:42):
because you don't just want the autonomy of being able
to come in and see your clients and go. Are
you really wanting to be in the seat the person
who makes the decisions, the change maker, the visionary? And
for me that was the challenge. I wanted to be
the visionary and I wanted to walk out my own
vision as a closed to continuing to operate in the
practice space.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
I do think that's so valuable. I've just been over here,
like formulating a metaphor, because everything has pros and cons.
So we lived in an apartment for years, like probably
for eight years of our married life we lived in
an apartment, and then in the pandemic, we moved over
to this house. And I can vividly remember, like in
(32:23):
the summertime, seeing overgrown weeds and stuff coming out of
the sidewalks and I was.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Like, who manages this? And I'm like, oh wait, it's me.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
And I like there were so many times in that
first year I'm like, oh my gosh, where is the
leasing office? Like I don't want to I see my sidewalk,
and I think that at the end of the day,
it's like I have my own space, Like I have
the ability to create what I want. And that, to me,
I think is like the comparison to group passes versus
private practice, Like there's sometimes where you really want the
(32:55):
leasing office. I have two young children, Like there's something
that is probably more of a priority than I would
like it to be. And Yeah, that mindfulness that doctor
Deander talked about, just being aware of what is leading
to the consternation. I think is so important because, like
I said, everything has pros and cons.
Speaker 6 (33:13):
I want to dismantle the notion that you have to
pick one or the other of picking private practice or
working in an agency, because right now I'm doing both.
I'm working for a local, low cost agency primarily serving
the folks of color and the agency doing trauma therapy,
specifically in couples of family therapy, mostly along with having
(33:34):
my own private practice. So I find that I kind
of get the best of both worlds. Of course, I'm
managing my own thing, I'm paying my own liability insurance,
all the things, I'm doing all that on my own,
but I still have a community, and I still have
a place to be able to go and learn from
the cases that I have there and fun factor appoint
(33:56):
doctor Jackson. I'm pretty newly licensed, So I find that
being able to have that balance between the two helps
me be able to practice that sense of independence and
confidence in my clinical decisions while still being able to
have a spot to ask those questions as needed. And
(34:18):
I mean, luckily, scheduling wise, it works out to have both.
So I think, if it's possible, it's worth considering doing both.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
At the same time, I love everything that y'all brought
up and just come left with.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Me real quick. Okay, don't come for me too hot.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
But I think that we are in a pay me
what I'm worth era where people don't want to do
any work to earn what they're worth. Number one, No
one can never pay your worth. You are a priceless
human being, so your worth will never be paid.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
You can be paid what you're asking for what you desire,
but your worth as a human being far surpasses any
dollar amount that anybody.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Will ever be able to give you one.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Number two, I find that people want to be in
a boss era, but don't want to do boss stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
You didn't boss up right.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
You want all the benefits of being the boss, but
you don't want to have done the learning. You don't
want to have to do the billing. You don't want
to have to do the email sending, the calling of
the insurance. You don't want to have to figure out
the credentialing. You don't want to have to figure out
any of the stuff. You don't even want to figure
out who you got to hire. But you want the
(35:28):
money that the boss is getting, but you don't want
the hours that the boss is putting in, because let's
be real, I never worked for a group practice, so
I won't even begin to pretend to claim that I
work for a few agencies before I went into private practice.
And one thing that I loved was I go in
at this time, I come out at this time, and
you know what I'm doing after nothing, nothing, but I
(35:52):
own this business, which means that this baby is my
baby twenty four seven. It means that while I do
get breaks, and I'm not saying that I don't, I'm
saying that my baby is always on my mind. Because
you're always a parent, somebody gonna need something at some point,
usually while you're on vacation.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Guess who has to answer you do it.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So let's be real, It's okay to not want to
be the boss. It's okay to want to work for
someone else and to just find the right place that
allows you to live the life of flexibility that you're
probably looking for at a pay that makes you smile
just a little bit, right. And I feel like that's
something that I've been offering to the therapist that work
for me and even my assistant. I'm like, I need
(36:34):
you to create your own schedule because I'm not gonna
do it. I need you to know that between Christmas
Eve and New Year, we're closed. If you decide to
see a client, that's your business, that's not my business.
But there will be no support because we are off.
We are closed, The assistant is off. Everybody's off. But
you chose to work, that's you'll business, right. But I
(36:56):
think that sometimes we're not being honest with ourselves. I
think there's a culture around boss hood, but there's not
a culture of learning bosshood and quiet as it's kept and.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Not somebody's gonna be mad.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Beyonce doesn't cosplay some stuff for y'all that got y'all
all in your feelings a little bit. First she was
a boss and now she is a worker, and y'all
are trying to follow Beyonce, and I need y'all to stop,
find your own center, figure out what it is that
you're trying to do, and what it is that you're
trying to build, and stop trying to be what you.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Believe that you're supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Because somebody told you that there is a lack of
value in you as a person if you have a
job rather than.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Own a job. I mean the true theater to be said.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Wait, you know, oh you know, I love you, but
we will nill out any queenslander. But your point is
well taken. Your point is well taken.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
I did it's gonna say, I don't. Anyway, I was
gonna say something doctor Donna said, kind of like right
back to the lift. I did forget that one of
the reasons why I like working for agencies right now,
especially as a psychologist, is that they have put in
the work to facilitate training programs, and that's something that's
(38:11):
valuable to me, being able to work at places that
have accreditation to handle trainees. But then I think also
what doctor Donna was saying is that it's not impossible
to do that in private practice either, because it seems
like you guys have cultivated a situation where you're hiring
people you can still keep that mentorship train alive. It
just takes work, and so I just wanted to pull that.
(38:34):
I don't know how I caught that from everything that
you said, but I did pick up on the mentorship
piece and just wanted to highlight that because I think
that that is important, at least it's important to me
as a black woman to be able to feel like
I'm giving back to the pipeline of psychology. And it
doesn't have to be every black woman's value to give back.
But I think why I appreciate what you were saying
(38:55):
is that you can still give back and have boundaries
and values and figure out how you want that can
figure that in your life.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
And your career.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
More from our conversation after the break, before Therapy for
Black Girls was my full time thing, like, I was
the director of a counsing center, and before any of
(39:24):
this was even a dream, I saw myself like retiring
from a cousing center. Like I love college student mental health,
so I definitely want to put a plug in there
for people because I think sometimes there's this idea of
like not wanting to work in agencies, right, but I
loved I've worked in like probably four or five different
college student mental health centers and loved my time in
each of them, and I think that is probably some
(39:45):
of the best training experiences that I've ever had. So
for anybody who's looking for additional agency opportunities college student
mental health. It's also great because there's like a timing
to the year, right, like you have busy fall and
spring semesters, then not a lot of students in the summer,
and so that's a great thing to think about. So
I also want to hear you all talk about how
have you figured out your pacing as a therapist?
Speaker 6 (40:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
So, I think that there are lots of conversations For
some people who come from agencies, there is this idea
of like other people building your caseloads. So you might
have to see ten clients in a day because that's
what the job tells you that you have to do.
How have you figured out, like how to manage your caseloads?
So how many people do you see during a day?
What have you figured out in terms of like a
rhythm for you to still do the kind of clinical
(40:29):
work that you want to do.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
I started off in my private practice in a survival mentality.
My personal story is I was working at a group
practice and then I realized that I wanted to start
my own business. And because like you, doctor White, I'm
in Colorado, there are very few black therapists around. I
was fortunate enough to take my clients with me into
(40:52):
my private practice, and I thought that I needed to
be able to like just work as much much as
possible to be able to make sure I was making
ends meet, and if I could go back, I would
not do that again. I think I was so worried
in the beginning of like what if I don't make enough?
What if I can't sustain this? And I think that
(41:14):
survival deficit mindset burned me out because fun fact I
started my private practice as I was planning my wedding
at the same time was actually disgusting. And I was
literally doing like eight to ten sessions a day and
then planning my wedding in the evening from like eight
to one of them. It was absolutely horrible. I do
(41:36):
not recommend anybody do that. So now I see between
five and eight on a really long day, but between
like five and eight in a day, and it gives
me time to do things like this, which I don't
think I would have been able to have time for before.
It gives me time to consult I'm now an adjunct
professor at the University of Denver, like it gives me
(41:58):
time to be able to do other things while still
seeing the clients that I want to see. I think
my pacing also has to do with being able to
say no, not every client. I know Doctor Donna said
this in the last episode, and it like drilled into
my brain. Not every client is a good client for you.
(42:19):
So if you have to pass along the referral to
somebody else who's a better fit, it will come back,
like it will come back and you will have that
person who is a good fit I was gonna say
to doctor Data. I think that also helped me set
my pacing because now more than ever in my past,
(42:40):
I've said no.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
A lot more.
Speaker 6 (42:43):
I was supposed to teach through the summer, I said no.
I was supposed to see four extra people. I was
like no, And I think it's allowing me to make
sure that I'm doing the best work I can because
I actually am present and awake for.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
All of it. My answer is math and science go
with me.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
So Number one, I did the math. How much money
do I need to pay my bills? But then how
much money do I want to live a life that
does it have me in a constant state of word
like what's my magic number?
Speaker 3 (43:18):
And then I work backwards, right, if.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
You want to make one hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
You do your math.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
How many weeks out of the year do you want
to work? Like, how much time off are you going
to take? You subtract that you divide the magic number
by the number of weeks you actually intend to work.
How many days now do you intend to work? You
divide again. How many clients would you prefer to see?
You divide again. It will tell you how much you
need to charge in order to live the life that
(43:44):
you are trying to live. So the math told me
that I needed to see but somewhere between fifteen and
twenty clients a week in order to meet my magic number.
And then my prices increased, which means that I didn't
need to see that many people. But I kept it
because I was just like, well, I want a little
extra money because you know, a girl trying and go
on a beach somewhere and she want to buy a
new babas cool. But what eventually went from four to
(44:07):
five days a week of working turn to three days steady,
turn to two days steady. I'm on one and on
that one I see up to eight clients in that
one day. I've also had to take a step back
and look at the things that I'm actually doing right.
I'm writing a book, i am teaching, I am creating
a training program for a large organization. I'm looking at
(44:30):
these things that I am doing that are also bringing
in money, and I'm just like, well, at what point
do you say I'm gonna let go of doing so
much of this so I could do more of this?
And I think that sometimes we be in that wholesol
ground culture so much that we don't stop and look
around to see did you get to the place that
you said that you wanted to go and it's the
(44:51):
destination the same? Did anything change? Do you want to
take the scenic group now? Do you want to make
a pit stop? Do you want to pause for a
little bit? That sometimes we forget about those things and
we get so into the hustle and grind to do
that we don't stop and allow space for pivot, for change,
for evolution.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
I love everything that Josephine and doctor Donna said because
I can relate to what Josephine said in terms of
just like, let me hoard, let me gather all the
clients so that I can make the money and reach
the goals. And I love what doctor Donna was saying
in terms of aligning my life with my values and
what's important to me and being on the sand, dipping
my feet and the water and having time to align
(45:31):
my life of what is important and allowing myself to evolve.
But I think the thing that we don't talk about
enough because we jump into this hushle and grind culture
is that y'all need to establish a solid business plan.
That's where the math is going to be mathing, That's
where the vision is going to be clear. That's where
the plan for pivots and for alternative streams of income
(45:52):
and cash flow analysis and understanding of what your break
even costs are going to be.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
That's where all that happens.
Speaker 5 (45:59):
You don't have to figure this out on the fly,
and if you don't know how to do it, there's
someone out there who does. There are small business associations
who can guide you through these processes that allow you
the opportunity to make educated determinations about how you're going
to go about establishing your practice, finding your flow, identifying
what your stamina is and ultimately that's what's going to
(46:22):
carry you and keep you grounded. So that's not a
moment where it's like I feel so exhausted. So I'm
moving from eight clients to four and now you're math
and mathing for your bills or for your overhead, or
to pay your contractors or to pay your employees. You've
got to be knowledgeable about how your business runs. And
the only way you're going to be able to do
that is to have a solid, comprehensive business line.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yeah. Now, I'm really just appreciated this conversation today, such
wisdom and all this. I was just gonna say that
your values orientation is important for me, and also important
not to get too caught up in any one story
of who who you are and what you can do,
because that can make some stuck points in those pivots.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
I think.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
So I trained to be a child psychologist, and so
all this time I came to Utah, I worked in
college counseling, and I was like, but wait, I'm a
child psychologist. But I too loved college counseling. But sometimes
it doesn't even stick in my conceptualization of my identity
because I'm a child psychologist, right, But really who I
(47:26):
am is somebody who wants to provide holistic care, and
that's what you're doing in a college. And so it
worked for me. But then now as a child psychologist
with children. My after school time is precious, and so
I don't want to build a practice of only seeing
kids an outpatient from three to eight o'clock at night.
(47:50):
It's just not how I want my life to be
at this point. And I can feel guilty about that
because I'm a child psychologist, or I can figure out
what are the things that really describe me from a
value standpoint and how can I move to that? So
I don't like seeing more than five clients in the day.
When I worked in impatient, we had a case load
(48:13):
of seven or eight, but you didn't have to see
all of them every day, So I didn't see more
than five or six clients a day. I find, especially
doing more DBT work than I used to, it's harder
to see more than six because of all of the
patient planning that you're having to do, especially like with
my clients, you're thinking about them all the time. They
(48:33):
might be texting you, like there might be some crises
to manage. And so I've really learned to just not
tie myself too strongly to any kind of narrative of
what I'm supposed to be, and that has provided the
balance that I've needed. I don't want to see clients
before ten o'clock because I'm not going to get there
(48:54):
on time, like I've got ADHD, I have to get
my kid off to school. We're gonna make it so
it scheduled people past ten. And then I found that
there were different things that I was willing to do
in telehealth when we were working during the pandemic, then
when I was working in person, and then hybrid has
been like a disaster of like values articulation because there's
(49:17):
so many options and you really kind of have to
know what works well for you. And so yeah, not
getting stuck into any one narrative of who I'm supposed
to be has helped me.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I love that. Thank y'all so much for sharing all
that information. I think that is such a beautiful gift
to offer the community. Just the idea of building your
career around the life that you actually want to have,
right like, not the other way around, and really kind
of figuring out how to do this professional thing in
addition to life and not really having it be the
thing that's driving all of our decisions. So we do
(49:48):
need to wrap up, because we could continue to go
on because y'all have been such incredible guests, so let's
just go around and remind everyone where we can find you.
We'll start with you, Josephine, with your website as well
as your social media handle.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
Everyone. You can find me at vmpupc A MPa WPC.
That's my website name, that's my social media. I'm on Instagram,
I'm on LinkedIn. I got a whole lot of love
after my last episode, especially for folks who are pre licensed,
so with super encouraging so richet.
Speaker 5 (50:18):
You can find me at Epiphany Psychotherapy dot com and
you can find me on Instagram at doctor Period d
Jazzing on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
What about you, doctor Alpoyd.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
You can find me at my group practice website uc
ebt dot com or on social media at applesid on
on social.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
And you can find me at doctor Period Dona Orioo
on Instagram, on TikTok, I think I might even be
on Facebook. You can also join the free Fabulist Infucked
community on Facebook well there for a limited time. And
if you're in the DMV, we're doing the Plan to
Orgasm masterclass come up in June, so I'm super excited
(51:02):
about that. Although we also have the retreat coming up
in October, we go on to Mexico.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
I love that, Doctor Jackson. Can we get you to
repeat your website and your social media handles please?
Speaker 5 (51:11):
You can find me at Epiphanypsychotherapy dot com and on
Instagram at doctor period D.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
Jackson.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Well, thank you all for joining me again this week
and sharing more of your time. I really appreciate you
in the service that you are offering to our community
and sharing your wisdom. I appreciate it. I'm so glad
Doctor Apple White, doctor Jackson, doctor Orioo, and Josephine were
able to join me for this conversation. To learn more
about them and their work, visit the show notes at
(51:41):
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three twelve and
be sure to text two of your girls right now
and tell them to check out the episode as well.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check
out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into
this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
(52:03):
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join US at Community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com. This episode was produced by FRIEDA.
Lucas and the Lease Ellis, and editing was done by
Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again
this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with
(52:25):
you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 3 (52:31):
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