September 6, 2023 • 52 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
When it comes to music, Summer 2023 has given us everything and more. From Janelle Monae ushering us into The Age Of Pleasure to Beyonce giving us life with her Renaissance tour, not to forget Ice Spice taking us to Barbieland, the question of song of the summer has never been more complicated. Joining me this week to chat all about summer’s major music moments is returning guest Danyel Smith. Danyel is the author of the acclaimed Shine Bright: A Very Personal History of Black Women In Pop and creator & host of the Spotify Original podcast Black Girl Songbook. Today, Danyel shares what makes a good summer song, the healing power of summer music, and her favorite summer releases of the past & present.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three twenty three of the
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Which friend are you?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And your sister circle?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Are you the wallflower, the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader?
Take the quiz at Sisterhoodheels dot com slash quiz to
find out, and then make sure to grab your copy
of Sisterhood Heels to find out more about how you
can be a better friend and how your circle can
do a better job of supporting you. Order yours today
at Sisterhoodheels dot com. When it comes to music, Summer
(01:51):
twenty twenty three has given us everything and more. From
Janelle Monet ushering us into the Age of Pleasure, to
Beyonce giving us life with her Renaissance tour, and let's
not forget I Spice taking us to Bobby Land. The
question of song of the Summer has never been more complicated.
Joining me this week to chat all about summer's major
(02:12):
music moments is returning guest Danielle Smith. Danielle is the
author of the acclaimed Shine Bright, a very personal history
of Black women in pop, and creator and host of
the Spotify original podcast, Black Girls Songbook. Residing in California,
Danielle is also a contributing writer to The New York
Times magazine. Today, Danielle shares what makes a good summer song,
(02:37):
the healing power of summer music, and her favorite releases
of the past and present. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on
social media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join
us over in the Sister Circle to talk more about
the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So good to
(03:03):
see you again, Danielle.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It's good to see you too. Look at you. What
about those glasses?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I know right, they helped me to see very well
and they're cute, very fashionable. So the last time we
had you here on the podcast, you were talking about
your then newly released books Shine Bright. So tell me
what has changed for you since the book and what
kinds of reaction did you get related to the book.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I honestly could not have hoped for a better reaction,
the amount of support, the amount of feedback, the amount
of love, frankly from people who were glad that the
sort of untold stories of black women in music were
being told in detail, beyond them just being the first
(03:50):
this or the first that that was spectacular. There is
a huge memoir piece in my book that was very
emotional for me. I had a tempestuous childhood. So when
I was on the road with the book, some folks
would just really come up to me and say, yes,
I really did appreciate what you said about Diana Ross
or I really appreciate what you said about Marilyn McCoo.
(04:10):
I really appreciate the stories that you told about Whitney Houston.
But I also appreciate the story you told about yourself
the strength that has been giving me over the last year.
It's been it's just been fortifying. I feel super I
guess lucky, but just mostly just grateful.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I love that, and I love that you have gotten
such good feedback, and it felt like you were really
the only one to write this book, right, Like those
stories really were advantage point that. I think that you
had a very unique way of sharing with us. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Oh, I'm glad that you enjoyed. It just brings me
a lot of joy to tell the stories. I mean,
sometimes it makes me mad because of the content, or
it makes me sad because I know some of the
tragedies that have occurred.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I know some of the.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Meanness and the prejudice that black women in music and
black women in john.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Of course, we so often get the brunt of that.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
But it still it just brings me so much joy
to tell the stories because there is also that much joy,
that much commitment to excellence, that much ambition, that much
just love in these women and their voices and their work.
So it has been fantastic. I'm so happy you asked me.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yes, yes, So we brought you back this week, Danielle,
because we really wanted to have a conversation about summer music, right, Like,
it feels like that is very much a vibe looking
forward to summer music. So I want to hear from you.
What is your definition of summer music. Is it just
a song that comes out in the summer, or is
it like music that gives you summer vibes?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
You know?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Let me just say for me, it's not really a
song that has to come out in the summer, because
sometimes I feel like songs in the previous eras but
also in this era, sometimes they need some moments to
like marinate, They need to kind of bubble under the
big pop scene and sort of become what they're going
(06:03):
to be. To me, it's rarely that a song drops
on June fifteenth and then by July nineteenth it's just.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
The most amazing summer song of the world.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
In some cases, like maybe this summer we had Barbie World,
which to me is a supreme, supreme, supreme summer song.
But no, it doesn't have to come out in the summer.
It has to evoke a certain free spiritedness, a certain
this moment is for me and nature.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
This is for the sun to touch my skin. I
feel good in that.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So oftentimes, to me, a summer song makes you feel
great about being on a bicycle or being in a
convertible car where you feel the wind in your hair,
or something that's playing out of a phone, or a
waterproof speaker at the beach as everybody's running back and
forth into the water. Those are the kind of things
(07:00):
to me, that mood of summer that makes a summer song.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So you said that you feel like Barbiewell was a
supreme summer song. What makes it a supreme summer song
for you?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Okay, So even though I just said it doesn't have
to drop in the summer, I just said, like I
just said that this one kind of did, or at
the very least slate spring, I think, and it just
took over. There's something about the confidence in the song.
There's something about the song that says, yes, I need
(07:33):
a miniskirt one, where's my halter top?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Do you know what I mean? Where's my glowy lotion?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Like?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Where are my girlfriends?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
We need to like coordinate, if not one hundred percent match,
like you know, what I'm saying, Like when she says
that line about where it girls and we're not playing tag?
Every time I hear it, I'm like, it's me odd,
Like it's just that cute.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Love it, Love it, Yeah, I mean, And of course
the movie to go over the summer right like, it
feels like everything was Bobby and I feel like that
was the perfect songs that go along with the movie.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
It really was, and it's so great. Also, just miss
NICKI Minaj are Queen of rap. You know, sometimes it's
so difficult as we all get older in life and
in the game to form partnerships with folks that are
coming up under us. And to see Niki and I
(08:28):
spies just come together like in this it's almost a
perfect record. Like the way they bounce off of each other,
the way they're in sync, just really energy.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wise, mood wise.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
To see that partnership, it does my heart just a
whole lot of good to see that happening.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Love it, Love it. So is there a particular song
that instantly brings up a summer memory for you?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
What's that Roy Ayir song Everybody Loves the Sunshine?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yes, remember Mary J. Blige sampled it for my life everybody.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So that song, it's always credited as it should be
to Roy Ayers, he's the brilliant musician that created the record,
but the vocals are by a woman named Debbie Darby.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
My life, My life, My life, my life. Don't let
me get to sing it. But let's not do that
because we're gonna be in a winter song moment with that.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
There's something about that Roy Airs Debbie Derby moment, My
life in the Sunshine. I lived in Brooklyn for a
long time. I lived there for a long time when
I was married, but also when I was single, So
it's something about that energy.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And I think then tied to the Mary J.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Blig song, It's just gonna always remind me of New
York and Brooklyn and summertime really in New York and Brooklyn,
which let me just go on and say in Brooklyn,
and not really even in New York, but like very
specifically in Brooklyn. If you've never spent a summer in Brooklyn,
you're missing like the people, the food, the parks, the
(10:05):
people walking their dogs, the beef patties, the pizza, the
sitting outside with your ice coffee at the cafe. The
saying should we go into the city. Should we go
into the city, and the answer being no, we shouldn't
because Brooklyn is everything. They're looking at the que folks
on the street, folks in their tank tops and their
(10:27):
sun dresses, like it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
The street fair.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
There's always a street fair in Brooklyn. It's not a
special occasion. There's always a street fair somewhere in Brooklyn.
So you can always go begetting some dried apricots, you
can go get yourself a corn dog, you can get
yourself a vegan smoothie. And it's just the energy of
Brooklyn and that song, My Life in the Sunshine, it
conjures all that up for me.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I love it. That's a good one. So you mentioned
the sampling there, and that's something I love to hear
more about. So I feel like sampling is something that
has been proliferated right like the industry, but I feel
like there's a bit of controversy also around sampling. I'd
love to hear your thoughts on sampling and maybe some
of your favorite songs that have sampled another song.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I think it's always tough.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
When we were talking about Nicki Minajen I spice it
can be such a challenge really to have a conversation
musically between generations. But I think that hip hop actually
has made it easier, and that even when things could
get salty, like maybe between Will Smith and DJ Jazzy
(11:32):
Jeff and Corn the Gang, who they sampled for their
cuge summer hit Summertime.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Come On.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Oh you know how much we love Will Smith? Come On?
Come On?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
That is like the Black Summertime national anthem. First of all,
Will's in perfect form. He's in perfect form vocally, the
video is perfection. And the way I was just talking
about Brooklyn, that's the way Will is speaking about Philly.
We all love that song and we all love the music.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
But the music is.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
A huge sample from Cool in the Gang, who have
a song called Summer Madness. In Will's version, there's like, again,
don't get me to mimicking sounds, but there's this long
note right, and then it goes higher and it goes higher,
and it's almost like, how high can it go when
it contributes so much to the mood.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
That's cool in the game.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That's all Robert Coobell in his game, And to me,
it's a perfect sampling, a perfect example of DJ jazz.
Jeff and Will Smith, the Fresh Prince probably had heard
that song their whole life. Their parents probably played it
(12:43):
in their homes. They probably heard it on the radio,
they heard it at parties, so it was just a
part of their spirit and soul. So when they say
let's put together a song about summertime in Philly, that's
what they go to. So to me, that magic. Especially
if things are done right and the original artist is
being paid as they should be paid for their creative work,
(13:05):
then I have nothing bad to say about sampling, not
one thing. I love the conversation between generations.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
It makes hip hop rich, It makes hip hop educational,
even when it doesn't seem like it's being so.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I am anything of.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I love that. That's a great example. Are there others
that come to mind for you that you feel like
are some of your favorites?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well? I like anything that samples. Frankie Beverly amazed.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And it's funny because Frankie Beverly and Mays they do
not like to be sampled.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
They're a group where they feel like, basically, y'all need
to make your own music, like.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
We're fine over here, Like you need to do something
on your own, but it's really hard not to because
Frankie Beverly amazes. It's our life, it's in our blood.
So anything that samples Mays featuring Frankie Beverly, there's just
so many and I'm always listening for it.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And are you able to typically pick it up pretty easily?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yes and no, because I think sometimes one hip hop
producers are so smart and they're so meticulous, they might
take the very tiniest bit of a song and that's
why hip hop works. Okay, So now I know one
Diana Ross, I'm coming out and more Money and More Problems,
Am I right?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
It's like, if you don't know the Diana Ross song
more Many, More Problems still works, But if you do
know the Diana Ross.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Song More Money, More Problems works on levels.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
It also calls people into conversations across generations and across
eras and music. It calls in people who came up
with the Supremes, It calls in people who came up
with Diana Ross as a solo artist, and it calls
up people who were partying with Uptown and Bad Boy
Records during the late eighties and early nineteen nineties. So
(15:00):
it functions on levels and it's just something that could
I hear it. Of course I immediately heard it, and
that matters because of the age that I am.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
But also my niece who's thirty years younger, A mean, she.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Doesn't know the Diana russong, but momenty more problems is
everything to her when really her generation is more I
spice than anything.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So that's why I love sampling as well.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
No, I love that that the intergenerational piece I think
is important. So when you think about like summer music,
in summer songs, do you feel like there's anybody who
has had a big career out of primarily releasing songs
of the summer and summer music.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
It is the Southern and Midwest guys. Okay, it's ludicrous,
and it's Nelly for sure. It's Hot in Here. It's
a summer song, like it's a nightclub song. It's a
fraternity or sorority dance song. But it's Hot in Here
is also like a beat song, So Nelly, And then
(16:01):
you think about all those like Ludacris hasn't always been
the most politically correct, so I hesitate to bring up
area codes. But that was a huge, huge, summer song,
Oh My God, Ti and Rihanna, these artists, I feel
like they know how to put their finger on the
(16:22):
pulse of I want to make people dance. I want
people to have on loose fitting clothing. I want people
to be sexy. I want people to feel good. I
don't want people, at least in this instance, to ask
themselves too many hard questions about life. I want them
to be feeling like things can be okay because the
(16:44):
sun is shining.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I look cute. People look cute.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Also, I'm not always listening to Katy Perry, but Katy
Perry and Snoop with California girls and me being a
California girl. Listen, I think not to get on my
homestatee though, what is amazing when I think about a
song from like nineteen seventies from Marlena Shaw, the jazz singer,
(17:08):
California Soul. It's been sampled so many times, it's been
in commercials for Jeep. It's California Soul.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Again. You did not invite me on here for my
singing voice, but California Soul.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
I think songs about California, songs about the American West.
Somehow those are easy to get in there as summer
songs as well.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So I feel like you've given us a bit of
an answer to this question. But like, how would an
artist approach a song for the summer perhaps differently than
they might a song for any other time.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I don't think it's any easier, But I do think
you have to be intentional as a creator, and I
do think that you have to be a part of
a team, because no matter what the credits say, a
song is a team effort. So rare one in a
million where a song is only one person singer, songwriter, producer,
(18:06):
vocal write. Like, really, almost nobody is all of those things,
even Prince when he said he was. I think when
you're trying to make something for the summertime, you really
do have to say, all this stress that's right here
on my shoulders, I have to create as if it's
not there. I have to create as if the song
(18:27):
is in my face. I have to create as if
I have a glass of prosecco in front of me,
or rose with a little raspberry in it or something.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
My toes are.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Done, my nails are done, and I'm just looking at
the waves hitting the shore. Even if the song doesn't
contain those details. It's that mood that it helps infuse
the song with that kind of energy, because a song
isn't just the lyrics and the sound.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
It's not just.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The lyrics or even the story of the song and
the instruments or the technology. It really is the spirit
of the people that made the record.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Like it still matters.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I always say that there's a lot of math in music,
right there is. Music is a language its own kind
of algebra. But none of that matters without the magic
that is there. And you do hear it in summer songs,
but really in just the best songs where you can't
quite even me, who's been writing about music for decades,
(19:38):
sometimes I will be thinking of a song that I
love so much that it's difficult to write about because
it's hard to capture in words the magic of somebody
else's imagination. And summer songs, man, sometimes they're just so
effervescent and evokace. That's when you just know, like there's magic,
(20:03):
you know, being in the studio as recording artists, if
you're able to all be together, because so much is
done now via laptop and phone, but a lot is
still done together in a room and I've been in
these rooms where people come in and they're grouchy, or
they're tired because it's early, or because it's late. They're hungry,
(20:24):
they're waiting on food. They have a whole bunch of
stuff in their notes app or a whole bunch of
stuff in a raggedy little notepad. Somebody else is late.
Things we're supposed to have happened that haven't happened. But
somebody plays a note, or somebody reads a couple of lyrics,
somebody changes the lighting in the room. Somebody arrives with
(20:45):
the limit pepper wings, and all of a sudden magic
is being made and it doesn't require as much conversation.
People are vibing off of each other, and man, those
moments you can hear them in summertime. You can hear
them in summer madness.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You can hear them.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Man, what's my other favorite one? Oh my god, lovely day.
Didn't you mention that from Bill Withers? Yes, what I've
been at weddings where they play that when the bride
and groom have just been married and they're walking, I
mean the tears of joy from everyone, and then when
Bill Withers at the end of that record sings that
(21:24):
pure long almost twenty second. Nope, he didn't tell anybody
he was doing that before he did it. The musicians
and stuff didn't know. They had to stay in the
groove in the cut with him. I know they were
looking at it. I don't know, but I can imagine
they were looking at each other like, Okay, what is
Bill on right now? If he's still going? And they
(21:48):
stayed with it, and then we have that classic. We
can't forget How Girl Summer, Doctor joy M.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I mean clearly, clearly. I feel like that has been
like the summer theme since it came out.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It's so great, and it's also so influential just in
American culture. It's like everything is such and such a summer.
It's a hot labor summer. It's a hot car summer,
it's a hot mini skirt summer. It's a hot whatever summer, right,
And I don't think Megan gets enough.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Credit for that. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I also feel like the timing of it was not fair,
because of course it dropped right in the pandemic, and
so I feel like we have not quite had a
summer to fully appreciate Hot Girl Summer since it came out.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
True you know, true, yeah, yes, but Meg really is
her own She is her own kind of genius.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Ah all that she's been through.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I hope she's loving and enjoying her summer really deeply.
One of my favorite favorites, though, is Summertime from Elephis
Gerald and Louis Armstrong when she said, and the living
is easy when you know and it was no parts
of that, right, but she still had to give us
(23:05):
that so that we could even imagine it and feel
it and have some salve on our souls.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
What does she say?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
The cotton is high, the catfish are jumping like ladies
and gentlemen. Ella Fitzgerald not quite the beginning of everything
for us, but super close to being that. And she
had her own summer anthem with that song, Summertime. And
if folks haven't heard it, you're missing out. You are
(23:36):
missing out. And also, believe me, so many people have
covered it, and most people, regardless of genre, rise to
the occasion of the song. But Ella's version with mister
Armstrong is the version.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Please start there, Please.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Please start there. More from our conversation after the break,
I feel like there's a very Beyonce tie in here.
And I don't want us to get too sidetracked, because
(24:14):
I could definitely spend the rest of this episode talking
about everything that is Renaissance. But I do feel like
you made a comment just a second ago around making music,
even when that's not what people are feeling, right like
when the world is crumbling, how artists will go within
to give the public something. And I definitely feel like
that's what Renaissance was for a lot of us when
it dropped last year and then now this year with
(24:37):
the tour, like that very much feels like summer music
for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
A gift, yes, a gift to the culture, our culture,
but a gift to the world and the universe. Like
it's an ongoing, never stopping costume party. It's like a
disco ball over the world, you know, like in the
way social media allows us to participate in each other's
(25:04):
joy to get Ready with Me videos of people listen
to me with get Ready for Me videos for a
Renaissance night, Why are people going all the way out?
Like there's this one red outfit that Beyonce has worn,
you know how she loves like a leotard, but it's
(25:25):
a long sleeve leotard and she's gonna give you a
good guarter belt and a boot and all of this.
This one woman I was watching, she is a seamstress.
She is a tailor, a designer. She created that outfit
for herself, and let me tell you the stuff that
she was using.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I was like, girl, I don't know how that's gonna
hold together.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
I feel you, but girl, wear some under it, because
I don't know what's gonna pop out. When she put
that on one, it all held together. But when she
put that on the joy of her looking at herself
and her work in her mirror and sharing that with.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
All of us.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Girl listen, I was like, Beyonce's doing work when she's
not even working, because oh my god, everybody with their
aerodesse and cowboy hats. Many people making them themselves, even
if they're not professionals with a needle and thread. Like
one woman I saw was like, I'm going to renaissance.
I'm not spending all this money though I'm doing advantage.
(26:26):
I'm doing all vintage, and I'm doing it like from
this one store, so I'm not driving all over town
the way she came out looking, I'm like, I should
have gotten more dressed up.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I saw her in London.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I guess I was at the top of the summer
and I didn't know really how deep we all needed
that until I saw folks dancing at floor level at
the concert in London. I had my fancy seats on
the riser. But at a certain point it's not good
(26:59):
enough to be fancy or renaissance.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
You got to go floor. You got to go to
the floor.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And when we did, and I was actually able to
dance with folks, see up close people's signs, see up
close people taping each other with their phones. It was
an upside down kind of joy. It really was. And
then when Blue came, we're not even discussing Blues summer
(27:28):
of really becoming herself. You know we all have that
summer too. Yes, yes, we have it at summer camp.
We have it at vacation Bible School, we have it
down south at our auntie's house where we're staying for
the summer. We have it at band camp. Blue just
happens to be having on hers on the Renaissance choir
with her where if you look at her from the
(27:54):
beginning of the tour, she was tentative, just letting the
choreography begin to live in her just figuring out what
she looks the most cute in, just figuring out the
way she's going.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
To communicate with the audience.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
And when your parents are jay Z and Beyonce, it
does get in your blood, but you still have to
figure out who you are.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And then to see.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Her now, first of all, she looks two winches hollid,
and she looked at the top of the summer. But
oftentimes that happens to us. She's so confident. Now she's
all the way to sassy. Now, yeah she is, am
I wrong?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
No? No, you are not you and not She's very
much living the choreography at this point.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yes, it's in her now, it's in her DNA. And
just to see the way she's just beaming. Yeah, And
you know, I'm gonna say that's hard work. She's learning
that too, to come out on stage every night and
do that, even just for the beats that she's out there, Right,
she still has to go through hair and makeup, costume, rehearsals, meetings,
(28:56):
all of those things. It's the ultimate summer job, right,
And I think, right, it is all right, And I
just feel that we're blessed to witness it and as
private as they can be too with their kids.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I think it's very intentional that they're allowing you.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Imagine if you're a note year old black girl right now.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yes, those are my other favorite TikTok videos of seeing
moms bring their kids to Renaiss songs and they're so
excited to see Blue.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
It isn't the best listen if I was nine her
tune right now? Would you ever forget? No? No? That
may be the real summertime jam. Right there is Miss Blue.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yes, in the Ivy League as they're calling it, it's
a summer being blue, right, but we're blue the summer blue.
So there was so many incredible songs of the summer
during your time at Vibe. So you were there from
ninety four to ninety nine, So let me just list
off some of the summer songs. So we had Janet
(29:56):
Jackson with Any Time, Any Place, Aliyah Back and Forth.
We had TLC Waterfalls, Mariah Carey, Always Be My Baby,
Monica and Brandy The Boy Is Mine, and Destiny Chow Bills,
Bill's Bills. Are there any behind the scenes stories or
moments that you can remember and share from any of
(30:19):
those songs of the summer.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
I don't know if I know behind the scenes of
the actual songs, but I do know what it was
like being in New York at that time when those
songs were out and hot, and a particular one that
I remember, it's not on your list, but it was
Buster rhymes, put your hands on my eyes can see.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Okay, let me tell you something.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And Buster's on tour right now, and I know I
haven't seen it, but I know he's turning it out
every night. He's such a friend, he's such a legend.
But the first time I heard that song, I don't
even think I was a vibey. I might have still
been in Billboard. There was a record release party for
a Boye to Men, And if you've ever been to
New York, you know what Chelsea Piers is. That's on
(31:05):
the west side of New York. And the party was
supposed to be as parties will be on the yacht
that was docked in Chelsea Piers.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
So here I am.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I'm going and it's a very snooty industry party. It's
looking like in my storm. The yacht was supposed to
take us up and down the Hudson River. Then they
announced we're not going to take the boat out because
of inclement weather. In might rain, it might be too windy,
so we're just going to stay in the dot. The
DJ and it was Kick Capri. He said, I have
(31:39):
a new record, though I don't know if you all
have parted. First of all, this is a boys to
men party. It isn't even like a party where everybody.
It wasn't even a jodasy party. Like. It was a
very bougie, you know, a linen jacket, it's swaying in
the wind type of boys and been party. He played
put your hands where my eyes could see, and I
(32:00):
think at first we were like, is this a real record?
Like it wasn't that good. I'm not gonna say the
sun came back out, but in my memory, the sun
came back out and listen, folks were taking off their shoes.
He must have played that song. Every time I tell
the story, it is a different number. He either played
that song four times, eight times, or fifteen times in
(32:22):
a row. I don't remember at this point. But what
I do remember is that I was literally wet with
sweat from dancing. This is name work party. It's not
the type of party that people even dance at there
wasn't a proper dance floor magic like New York even
(32:42):
at that time, I think, and maybe I felt this
way too, because I was a country mouse from Oakland,
California moving to the big city. But those kinds of moments,
to me, are the behind the scenes moments that matter
the most to me, even more than the times that
I've been in the studio, because it's it's one thing
to see people creating, and that's magic and it's a
(33:03):
gift in my life and it's a privilege. But I'm
not really participating except for as a witness when you
hear it with other people, like we're talking about with
the Renaissance shows and stuff, and you can't help us say,
I'm taking my shoes off because I can't dance comfortably enough.
I'm gonna dance and dance and dance. And I don't
even know you, ma'am or sir. All of a sudden,
(33:26):
we are skipping to my lou together and the sun
is out, it might rain, the wind is blowing, it's summertime. Like, oh,
so that's my best behind the scenes. I mean, I
remember when waterfalls came out. I remember all those moments
Janet Jackson, Anytime, anyplace. All of those were amazing moments.
But what I really remember about those, even more than
(33:49):
working those records as a journalist or an editor, is
when I had the chance to participate and shake my
own group thing.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And I am not.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
That girl that is a good dancer. Let me tell
you something. When music can make me forget that listen,
then that's my song.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
And right very much summer music vibes, then.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
That's my song.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
If you make me forget any awkwardness that I might
feel about myself or my body or how I move
or any of those things, that's when something becomes well,
that's my song, because that's what it's doing for me.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
More from our conversation after the break. So you started
off pretty early in this conversation talking about how Barbie
World was a quintessential summer or song. What else about
(34:48):
music this summer has been special for you? What do
you think has been special about this summer's music lineup?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's this other song? What is her name? Gucci? Gucci?
What what it is? Yes?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Wait a minute, wait a minute, Okay, I am too
much in these Instagram streets. If that song soundtracks one
more real. I'm gonna have to fight everybody. But it's
so good though, And then I didn't realize until just
this morning, when I was preparing for our conversation, I
was like, why would love this song so much? I mean, obviously,
(35:25):
Ducie has an amazing voice, has such a sweet, little
confident lilt to it or something like. I love it.
But I'm like, but what else is it about this record?
And I said him, who produced?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Who wrote? Who produced? So why is it? Somebody name
J White did it? And the thing is, you know
what else? He produced?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Bodak Yellow and I like It from Cardi b Oh wow,
both of those songs are what diamond singles. Mister White
has a little bit of a hot hand right now,
doesn't he clearly?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And then he.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Also produced the Savage remix for Megan Beyonce. Oh so,
wait a minute. This is a sweet creative partnership. And
now I think that it's going to be way beyond
just a great summer song because this person has these
diamond credentials and if they work this out right, we
(36:19):
could still be jamming this song three four years from now,
like it's new.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
So I love that. What are the other ones? That
I'm loving mine, Oh you know what I love.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
And I can't believe I'm saying it because she has
acted a fool on so many occasions. I'm covering my
eyes because I don't even want to look you in
my eyes right now when I say this, it's that
damn Miley cyrus and that I can I can give
myself flower.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
It is catchy, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Though.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I am passing the flowers at Trader Joe's, like, I
can give myself some flowers, like seriously, like, and I'm like,
she goes too far, but she says she can hold
her own hand or something like.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Girl, you said I stepped too far. I don't want
to hold my own hand now.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
But there is something so powerful about I can get
my own flowers for myself. And I'm a straight girl.
I love getting flowers from my man. It's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
But it's not everything. It's not everything.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
And to hear it said so clearly, and because it's
the hook the title of the song, you can't hide
from it.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
You don't have to look for it.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, and it's a beautiful sentiment for my Honestly, it's
a beautiful sentiment it's so strong and beautiful at the
same time. That's a summer summer song right there. That's
a skipping down the street song right there.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Like it's almost as good as what's my other one,
I'm Walking on Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Y'all can hate on me if you want to. Here's
the thing, I don't care.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Do We girls have our own individual versions of what
feels like somewhere.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Right I'm walking on Sunshine and it shot feels up. Girl.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Listen if I look, this is the therapy for Michael Show.
I've made no secret about the fact that I am
a depressive, like I'm always dealing with that, and I'm
happy to be able to even say that right now
with a smile on my face, because I used to
not be able to. But sometimes music, and I think
sometimes that's why it's been such a partner to me
(38:19):
in my life.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
When I hear a song like.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Walking on Sunshine, it does something to the chemistry in
my body, It does something to my mood. I'm not
saying it's medicinal. I'm not saying it takes the place
of therapy, but I'm saying it will function for me
as such a boost, though it will function for me
as such a like I'm going through it. I'm going
(38:41):
through it. I'm going through it, but this is helping
me get through it. And that's whether it's something as
joyous as I'm Walking on Sunshine or Hot Girl Summer.
But sometimes we need a little in my life, my life,
mym you know, and that helps as well.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Okay, so I'm gonna list of some other summer projects
to get your thoughts. What about Sexy rids Hood, how
this princiss o Why?
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Okay, And that's my whole answer right there. Also why
she's that cute ooh, I love them.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So somebody else who I think is also really tapping
into the heart of R and B right now is
Victoria Monique with Jaguard too.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Let me tell you about her. Okay.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
First of all, the music again, we go back to
what we were talking about, conversations between generations. She's so
clearly influenced by the music of the seventies and early
eighties that if you were actually there, I was a kid,
but still it pulls you in regardless of your age,
because you can find an entry point like you can
find it, and then if you're like with her age wise,
(39:53):
you don't have to have heard that music from back then, you.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Don't have to know who the emotions are.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
You can just be into it for what she's doing
because it does belong completely to her. Still, I did
a panel at one point, moderated a panel of black
women creators, and she was on the panel. And the
way her human energy, the way she presents in person,
is so chill and calming. It was giving shade, to
(40:19):
be honest, Wow, it was giving sophisticated.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It was a little bit giving. Y'all are lucky you
have time for this.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
And I'm not mad at that because she has songs
to write and things to do.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
But I say all that.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
To say I love the songs, but I also just
love very much right now, the idea of her.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I love black women making rhythm and blues.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I love black women who understand what pop actually means.
That it doesn't necessarily mean that something has to sound
like a pop song. It means you just going for
the biggest and the most. I hear that ambition in
her music, you know. So she's out of here, So
see her now before the tickets are a geopop because
(41:03):
they will be so she's that girl.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Agreed, Yes, agreed. Okay. What about Janelle Monee's The Age
of Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Let me tell you about her, Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Janelle Monee is an alien like the Voice the Chops.
As an actor, I will never forget her portraying that
scientist in Hidden Figures, the way she was able to
capture the joy of her partner in that film, giving
her those pencils to support her work and the efforts
(41:42):
that she was making. She didn't go like crazy, like
a cheerleader or anything like that. It was just this
quiet inner joy of like this person sees me. And
I've been in the presence of Jenne Monee and I
feel like that's her energy in real life. I feel
like she sees us. I hear it in her music.
(42:03):
I see it in her work in Hollywood. I see
in the way she runs her business called Wonderland, her
creative collective. In the dancing in the Clothes, We've seen
the evolution from the discipline of I will only wear
black and white. I will only wear black and white
because I'm not even here to have the surface of me.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I'm not here for that even to be discussed.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
It's just gonna be black and white, and then we've
seen how she's moved all the way over then to
so much color and so much big design to them
like and also, I'm free with my body.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Now you all won't see my body.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Y'all can see it because it's all that so again,
like maybe it's just all the girls whose last name
is gonnaame.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
They're having a moment on it being having a.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Whole moment completely they are.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
They are okay one more so, what about fly on
a boss?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
If you wish all the way over my head? No
idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
So these are the two little sisters on teach.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Oh you're about them?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
No, I love them girls just to know their name,
not hello Christ, I'm about to sitity.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Oh my god, girl.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
They're invited to any girl they can come by right
now for breakfast.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Are you kidding me? Those girls? And then now they
have to deal with the WNBA.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
I use this word a lot of times when I
speak about black women's work because we don't get the
credit for it. The amount of planning and discipline and
execution that I see in everything that they're doing it
is brilliant.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
It is the commitment. This is the commitment too.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
You know how many people probably have told them, Okay,
you guys have done that, so you guys can try
something else.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
No, we're doing this. We're doing this till it all
the way kills over and dies.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
We are doing this. People love this also, you can
see by the way they are running down the street
like bulls. I love to see it. The joy and
the strength get of my way, my way also in
the black community, to have the nerve to be saying, hello, Christ,
you know something.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Somebody's grandma was mad.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Right now, I'm about to sin again. Listen the way
I love them. And it feels so.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I could be totally wrong about this. I do not know.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
It feels so lifted from the first line of a
journal injury, because honey, I think we've all written those
two sentences at the top of a journal entry with
different words, whether it's greetings Jesus, whether it's a lah,
(44:42):
whether it's hello Universe, whether it's I'm about to f
up again, whether it's why am I doing this again?
That sentiment of I'm trying and at the same time
I don't care. It is so free to be lifted
from the journal, to be lifted from the interior to
(45:05):
being the exterior and to be executed with all that physicality.
Listen to me, I'm so mad I didn't know who
they were. And please leave that in there because I'm
dead wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
But I'll tell you what. I know that song, though
you do. I know that song and I live for it.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yes, yes, okay. So this may be a hard question.
So what would you say, definitively is your song of
the Summer for twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
It wasn't released in the summer, but people are playing
it like it was and it's kill Bill From says.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
I, Oh, I'm still that Okay.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
I'm so mature. I'm so mature. I wrote about her
for the New York Times magazine. I visited her at
her home in Malibu. To get there, unless you know
a secret way that I don't know, you have to
ride up Pacific Coast Highway.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
It's literally named.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Always as one of the most beautiful highways in the
entire world. And to me, that song just evokes just that,
driving up Pacifico's Highway with the top down, having done
something that you probably shouldn't have and you're a little
bit chastising yourself, but you're all the way enjoying yourself.
(46:25):
There's something about Scissor's voice two in general, but particularly
in this song, in her songwriting that's just kind of fearless.
I could see how that song could be written and
it could not be say, chosen for the album that
it sounds maybe a little goofy, a little unfinished, little
rough around the edges. And that's just why it is
(46:46):
such a summer song.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
It's just free. It's just free.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
It's another one, and it's so great for black women's
singers right now, that the things that we struggle with
the most, things that again we just commit to our girlfriends,
maybe over brunch or in our group chats or in
our journals, whether you're typing them or writing them down.
These feelings that people feel like, well, do black women
(47:10):
even feel that way?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Y'all are so strong. Y'all just get it, y'all get
things done.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
You guys, just manage situations are coming from our partners.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Well, you don't need me because you've got this. Sure.
It's all true, and it's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
So to see these innermost feelings coming out that aren't
even necessarily about the other, right, but about a black
woman's own self and own heart. Those are the songs
that I'm responding to. Whether it's as we just mentioned,
Hello Christ, I'm about to sin again, or whether it's like,
(47:49):
you know, you just keep somebody's car, honey, not that
I know anything about that, and you've got away with it, and.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
You know you're wrong, you know you're wrong.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
You're like, I'm so mature, You're being sarcastic with yourself.
But at the same time, it's like, I was mad, though,
and you did do that to me. And I'm not
saying it's writer or it's okay to quote Whitney Houston,
but what is okay it's for black women to be
saying how they feel about themselves. So often we're singing
about I miss you so much, I'm gonna love you forever,
(48:24):
I'm want to jump on the midnight train to Georgia,
come back to me child, anytime, anyplace. And all these
are beautiful songs. I could listen to them in a
row right now, be happy for the rest of the day.
But sometimes what's missing is us singing about how we
feel about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
And it's happening now.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
I think a lot of the energy of rap and
women in rap is spilling over into women in R
and B in black pop.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That I'm talking about me, what's going on with me?
Speaker 3 (48:58):
Good, bad or otherwise mature or immature, and it's delicious,
it's heartening.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I love that. That's a beautiful answer. So Danyelle will
remind the community where we can stay connected with you.
It is your website as well as any social media
channels you want to share.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
I am Danielle Smith and that is spelled d A
and y E L. Smith.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
You can find me at what remains of Twitter. You
can find me on Facebook, but I'm there rarely. If
you really want to find me, come on over to Instagram,
come on over to threads, come on over to spill,
come on over to Spoutable. I'm there either as Danamo
Da n A m O, which is my high school
nickname Danamo because I was such a little Dynamo if
you can imagine, and you can also find me. Just
(49:44):
google Danielle Smith and shine Bright and you will find
the thing that I'm most proud of, which is my book,
Shine Bright, which is a very personal history of black
women in pop music. It was named by Pitchwork as
the music book of twenty twenty two, and it's the
nearest and dearest thing to my heart. And if you
want to hear my voice talking so much mess as
(50:06):
I'm talking here with Doctor Joy, you can also just
go to Spotify search Black Girl's Songbook and you can
hear my podcast where I'm always telling stories about black
women in music and also about myself as a black
woman in music, as the former editor in chief of
Vibe and Billboard and all the many things that I've done.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Indeed, we will be sure to include all of that
in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending
more time with us today. Always talk so fun. I'm
so glad Danielle was able to join us once again
to share her expertise. To learn more about her and
her work, or to grab your copy of Shine Bright,
(50:47):
visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com
slash Session three twenty three, and don't forget to text
two of your girls right now and encourage them to
check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist
in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com slash directory. And if you want
to continue digging into this topic, or just be in
community with other sisters. Come on over and join us
(51:10):
in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the
Internet designed just for black women. You can join us
at Community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode
was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
(51:31):
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Which friend are you and your sister circle? Are you
the wallflower, the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader? Take
the quiz at Sisterhoodheels dot com slash quiz to find out,
(51:51):
and then make sure to grab your copy of Sisterhood
Heels to find out more about how you can be
a better friend and how your circle can do a
better job of supporting you. Order yours today at sisterhood
Heels dot com.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three twenty three of the
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Which friend are you?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And your sister circle?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Are you the wallflower, the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader?
Take the quiz at Sisterhoodheels dot com slash quiz to
find out, and then make sure to grab your copy
of Sisterhood Heels to find out more about how you
can be a better friend and how your circle can
do a better job of supporting you. Order yours today
at Sisterhoodheels dot com. When it comes to music, Summer
(01:51):
twenty twenty three has given us everything and more. From
Janelle Monet ushering us into the Age of Pleasure, to
Beyonce giving us life with her Renaissance tour, and let's
not forget I Spice taking us to Bobby Land. The
question of song of the Summer has never been more complicated.
Joining me this week to chat all about summer's major
(02:12):
music moments is returning guest Danielle Smith. Danielle is the
author of the acclaimed Shine Bright, a very personal history
of Black women in pop, and creator and host of
the Spotify original podcast, Black Girls Songbook. Residing in California,
Danielle is also a contributing writer to The New York
Times magazine. Today, Danielle shares what makes a good summer song,
(02:37):
the healing power of summer music, and her favorite releases
of the past and present. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on
social media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join
us over in the Sister Circle to talk more about
the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So good to
(03:03):
see you again, Danielle.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It's good to see you too. Look at you. What
about those glasses?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I know right, they helped me to see very well
and they're cute, very fashionable. So the last time we
had you here on the podcast, you were talking about
your then newly released books Shine Bright. So tell me
what has changed for you since the book and what
kinds of reaction did you get related to the book.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I honestly could not have hoped for a better reaction,
the amount of support, the amount of feedback, the amount
of love, frankly from people who were glad that the
sort of untold stories of black women in music were
being told in detail, beyond them just being the first
(03:50):
this or the first that that was spectacular. There is
a huge memoir piece in my book that was very
emotional for me. I had a tempestuous childhood. So when
I was on the road with the book, some folks
would just really come up to me and say, yes,
I really did appreciate what you said about Diana Ross
or I really appreciate what you said about Marilyn McCoo.
(04:10):
I really appreciate the stories that you told about Whitney Houston.
But I also appreciate the story you told about yourself
the strength that has been giving me over the last year.
It's been it's just been fortifying. I feel super I
guess lucky, but just mostly just grateful.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I love that, and I love that you have gotten
such good feedback, and it felt like you were really
the only one to write this book, right, Like those
stories really were advantage point that. I think that you
had a very unique way of sharing with us. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Oh, I'm glad that you enjoyed. It just brings me
a lot of joy to tell the stories. I mean,
sometimes it makes me mad because of the content, or
it makes me sad because I know some of the
tragedies that have occurred.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I know some of the.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Meanness and the prejudice that black women in music and
black women in john.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Of course, we so often get the brunt of that.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
But it still it just brings me so much joy
to tell the stories because there is also that much joy,
that much commitment to excellence, that much ambition, that much
just love in these women and their voices and their work.
So it has been fantastic. I'm so happy you asked me.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yes, yes, So we brought you back this week, Danielle,
because we really wanted to have a conversation about summer music, right, Like,
it feels like that is very much a vibe looking
forward to summer music. So I want to hear from you.
What is your definition of summer music. Is it just
a song that comes out in the summer, or is
it like music that gives you summer vibes?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
You know?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Let me just say for me, it's not really a
song that has to come out in the summer, because
sometimes I feel like songs in the previous eras but
also in this era, sometimes they need some moments to
like marinate, They need to kind of bubble under the
big pop scene and sort of become what they're going
(06:03):
to be. To me, it's rarely that a song drops
on June fifteenth and then by July nineteenth it's just.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
The most amazing summer song of the world.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
In some cases, like maybe this summer we had Barbie World,
which to me is a supreme, supreme, supreme summer song.
But no, it doesn't have to come out in the summer.
It has to evoke a certain free spiritedness, a certain
this moment is for me and nature.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
This is for the sun to touch my skin. I
feel good in that.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So oftentimes, to me, a summer song makes you feel
great about being on a bicycle or being in a
convertible car where you feel the wind in your hair,
or something that's playing out of a phone, or a
waterproof speaker at the beach as everybody's running back and
forth into the water. Those are the kind of things
(07:00):
to me, that mood of summer that makes a summer song.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So you said that you feel like Barbiewell was a
supreme summer song. What makes it a supreme summer song
for you?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Okay, So even though I just said it doesn't have
to drop in the summer, I just said, like I
just said that this one kind of did, or at
the very least slate spring, I think, and it just
took over. There's something about the confidence in the song.
There's something about the song that says, yes, I need
(07:33):
a miniskirt one, where's my halter top?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Do you know what I mean? Where's my glowy lotion?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Like?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Where are my girlfriends?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
We need to like coordinate, if not one hundred percent match,
like you know, what I'm saying, Like when she says
that line about where it girls and we're not playing tag?
Every time I hear it, I'm like, it's me odd,
Like it's just that cute.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Love it, Love it, Yeah, I mean, And of course
the movie to go over the summer right like, it
feels like everything was Bobby and I feel like that
was the perfect songs that go along with the movie.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
It really was, and it's so great. Also, just miss
NICKI Minaj are Queen of rap. You know, sometimes it's
so difficult as we all get older in life and
in the game to form partnerships with folks that are
coming up under us. And to see Niki and I
(08:28):
spies just come together like in this it's almost a
perfect record. Like the way they bounce off of each other,
the way they're in sync, just really energy.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wise, mood wise.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
To see that partnership, it does my heart just a
whole lot of good to see that happening.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Love it, Love it. So is there a particular song
that instantly brings up a summer memory for you?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
What's that Roy Ayir song Everybody Loves the Sunshine?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yes, remember Mary J. Blige sampled it for my life everybody.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So that song, it's always credited as it should be
to Roy Ayers, he's the brilliant musician that created the record,
but the vocals are by a woman named Debbie Darby.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
My life, My life, My life, my life. Don't let
me get to sing it. But let's not do that
because we're gonna be in a winter song moment with that.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
There's something about that Roy Airs Debbie Derby moment, My
life in the Sunshine. I lived in Brooklyn for a
long time. I lived there for a long time when
I was married, but also when I was single, So
it's something about that energy.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And I think then tied to the Mary J.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Blig song, It's just gonna always remind me of New
York and Brooklyn and summertime really in New York and Brooklyn,
which let me just go on and say in Brooklyn,
and not really even in New York, but like very
specifically in Brooklyn. If you've never spent a summer in Brooklyn,
you're missing like the people, the food, the parks, the
(10:05):
people walking their dogs, the beef patties, the pizza, the
sitting outside with your ice coffee at the cafe. The
saying should we go into the city. Should we go
into the city, and the answer being no, we shouldn't
because Brooklyn is everything. They're looking at the que folks
on the street, folks in their tank tops and their
(10:27):
sun dresses, like it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
The street fair.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
There's always a street fair in Brooklyn. It's not a
special occasion. There's always a street fair somewhere in Brooklyn.
So you can always go begetting some dried apricots, you
can go get yourself a corn dog, you can get
yourself a vegan smoothie. And it's just the energy of
Brooklyn and that song, My Life in the Sunshine, it
conjures all that up for me.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I love it. That's a good one. So you mentioned
the sampling there, and that's something I love to hear
more about. So I feel like sampling is something that
has been proliferated right like the industry, but I feel
like there's a bit of controversy also around sampling. I'd
love to hear your thoughts on sampling and maybe some
of your favorite songs that have sampled another song.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I think it's always tough.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
When we were talking about Nicki Minajen I spice it
can be such a challenge really to have a conversation
musically between generations. But I think that hip hop actually
has made it easier, and that even when things could
get salty, like maybe between Will Smith and DJ Jazzy
(11:32):
Jeff and Corn the Gang, who they sampled for their
cuge summer hit Summertime.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Come On.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Oh you know how much we love Will Smith? Come On?
Come On?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
That is like the Black Summertime national anthem. First of all,
Will's in perfect form. He's in perfect form vocally, the
video is perfection. And the way I was just talking
about Brooklyn, that's the way Will is speaking about Philly.
We all love that song and we all love the music.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
But the music is.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
A huge sample from Cool in the Gang, who have
a song called Summer Madness. In Will's version, there's like, again,
don't get me to mimicking sounds, but there's this long
note right, and then it goes higher and it goes higher,
and it's almost like, how high can it go when
it contributes so much to the mood.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
That's cool in the game.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That's all Robert Coobell in his game, And to me,
it's a perfect sampling, a perfect example of DJ jazz.
Jeff and Will Smith, the Fresh Prince probably had heard
that song their whole life. Their parents probably played it
(12:43):
in their homes. They probably heard it on the radio,
they heard it at parties, so it was just a
part of their spirit and soul. So when they say
let's put together a song about summertime in Philly, that's
what they go to. So to me, that magic. Especially
if things are done right and the original artist is
being paid as they should be paid for their creative work,
(13:05):
then I have nothing bad to say about sampling, not
one thing. I love the conversation between generations.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
It makes hip hop rich, It makes hip hop educational,
even when it doesn't seem like it's being so.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I am anything of.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I love that. That's a great example. Are there others
that come to mind for you that you feel like
are some of your favorites?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well? I like anything that samples. Frankie Beverly amazed.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And it's funny because Frankie Beverly and Mays they do
not like to be sampled.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
They're a group where they feel like, basically, y'all need
to make your own music, like.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
We're fine over here, Like you need to do something
on your own, but it's really hard not to because
Frankie Beverly amazes. It's our life, it's in our blood.
So anything that samples Mays featuring Frankie Beverly, there's just
so many and I'm always listening for it.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And are you able to typically pick it up pretty easily?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yes and no, because I think sometimes one hip hop
producers are so smart and they're so meticulous, they might
take the very tiniest bit of a song and that's
why hip hop works. Okay, So now I know one
Diana Ross, I'm coming out and more Money and More Problems,
Am I right?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
It's like, if you don't know the Diana Ross song
more Many, More Problems still works, But if you do
know the Diana Ross.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Song More Money, More Problems works on levels.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
It also calls people into conversations across generations and across
eras and music. It calls in people who came up
with the Supremes, It calls in people who came up
with Diana Ross as a solo artist, and it calls
up people who were partying with Uptown and Bad Boy
Records during the late eighties and early nineteen nineties. So
(15:00):
it functions on levels and it's just something that could
I hear it. Of course I immediately heard it, and
that matters because of the age that I am.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
But also my niece who's thirty years younger, A mean, she.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Doesn't know the Diana russong, but momenty more problems is
everything to her when really her generation is more I
spice than anything.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So that's why I love sampling as well.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
No, I love that that the intergenerational piece I think
is important. So when you think about like summer music,
in summer songs, do you feel like there's anybody who
has had a big career out of primarily releasing songs
of the summer and summer music.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
It is the Southern and Midwest guys. Okay, it's ludicrous,
and it's Nelly for sure. It's Hot in Here. It's
a summer song, like it's a nightclub song. It's a
fraternity or sorority dance song. But it's Hot in Here
is also like a beat song, So Nelly, And then
(16:01):
you think about all those like Ludacris hasn't always been
the most politically correct, so I hesitate to bring up
area codes. But that was a huge, huge, summer song,
Oh My God, Ti and Rihanna, these artists, I feel
like they know how to put their finger on the
(16:22):
pulse of I want to make people dance. I want
people to have on loose fitting clothing. I want people
to be sexy. I want people to feel good. I
don't want people, at least in this instance, to ask
themselves too many hard questions about life. I want them
to be feeling like things can be okay because the
(16:44):
sun is shining.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I look cute. People look cute.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Also, I'm not always listening to Katy Perry, but Katy
Perry and Snoop with California girls and me being a
California girl. Listen, I think not to get on my
homestatee though, what is amazing when I think about a
song from like nineteen seventies from Marlena Shaw, the jazz singer,
(17:08):
California Soul. It's been sampled so many times, it's been
in commercials for Jeep. It's California Soul.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Again. You did not invite me on here for my
singing voice, but California Soul.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
I think songs about California, songs about the American West.
Somehow those are easy to get in there as summer
songs as well.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So I feel like you've given us a bit of
an answer to this question. But like, how would an
artist approach a song for the summer perhaps differently than
they might a song for any other time.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I don't think it's any easier, But I do think
you have to be intentional as a creator, and I
do think that you have to be a part of
a team, because no matter what the credits say, a
song is a team effort. So rare one in a
million where a song is only one person singer, songwriter, producer,
(18:06):
vocal write. Like, really, almost nobody is all of those things,
even Prince when he said he was. I think when
you're trying to make something for the summertime, you really
do have to say, all this stress that's right here
on my shoulders, I have to create as if it's
not there. I have to create as if the song
(18:27):
is in my face. I have to create as if
I have a glass of prosecco in front of me,
or rose with a little raspberry in it or something.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
My toes are.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Done, my nails are done, and I'm just looking at
the waves hitting the shore. Even if the song doesn't
contain those details. It's that mood that it helps infuse
the song with that kind of energy, because a song
isn't just the lyrics and the sound.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
It's not just.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The lyrics or even the story of the song and
the instruments or the technology. It really is the spirit
of the people that made the record.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Like it still matters.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I always say that there's a lot of math in music,
right there is. Music is a language its own kind
of algebra. But none of that matters without the magic
that is there. And you do hear it in summer songs,
but really in just the best songs where you can't
quite even me, who's been writing about music for decades,
(19:38):
sometimes I will be thinking of a song that I
love so much that it's difficult to write about because
it's hard to capture in words the magic of somebody
else's imagination. And summer songs, man, sometimes they're just so
effervescent and evokace. That's when you just know, like there's magic,
(20:03):
you know, being in the studio as recording artists, if
you're able to all be together, because so much is
done now via laptop and phone, but a lot is
still done together in a room and I've been in
these rooms where people come in and they're grouchy, or
they're tired because it's early, or because it's late. They're hungry,
(20:24):
they're waiting on food. They have a whole bunch of
stuff in their notes app or a whole bunch of
stuff in a raggedy little notepad. Somebody else is late.
Things we're supposed to have happened that haven't happened. But
somebody plays a note, or somebody reads a couple of lyrics,
somebody changes the lighting in the room. Somebody arrives with
(20:45):
the limit pepper wings, and all of a sudden magic
is being made and it doesn't require as much conversation.
People are vibing off of each other, and man, those
moments you can hear them in summertime. You can hear
them in summer madness.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You can hear them.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Man, what's my other favorite one? Oh my god, lovely day.
Didn't you mention that from Bill Withers? Yes, what I've
been at weddings where they play that when the bride
and groom have just been married and they're walking, I
mean the tears of joy from everyone, and then when
Bill Withers at the end of that record sings that
(21:24):
pure long almost twenty second. Nope, he didn't tell anybody
he was doing that before he did it. The musicians
and stuff didn't know. They had to stay in the
groove in the cut with him. I know they were
looking at it. I don't know, but I can imagine
they were looking at each other like, Okay, what is
Bill on right now? If he's still going? And they
(21:48):
stayed with it, and then we have that classic. We
can't forget How Girl Summer, Doctor joy M.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I mean clearly, clearly. I feel like that has been
like the summer theme since it came out.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It's so great, and it's also so influential just in
American culture. It's like everything is such and such a summer.
It's a hot labor summer. It's a hot car summer,
it's a hot mini skirt summer. It's a hot whatever summer, right,
And I don't think Megan gets enough.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Credit for that. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I also feel like the timing of it was not fair,
because of course it dropped right in the pandemic, and
so I feel like we have not quite had a
summer to fully appreciate Hot Girl Summer since it came out.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
True you know, true, yeah, yes, but Meg really is
her own She is her own kind of genius.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Ah all that she's been through.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I hope she's loving and enjoying her summer really deeply.
One of my favorite favorites, though, is Summertime from Elephis
Gerald and Louis Armstrong when she said, and the living
is easy when you know and it was no parts
of that, right, but she still had to give us
(23:05):
that so that we could even imagine it and feel
it and have some salve on our souls.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
What does she say?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
The cotton is high, the catfish are jumping like ladies
and gentlemen. Ella Fitzgerald not quite the beginning of everything
for us, but super close to being that. And she
had her own summer anthem with that song, Summertime. And
if folks haven't heard it, you're missing out. You are
(23:36):
missing out. And also, believe me, so many people have
covered it, and most people, regardless of genre, rise to
the occasion of the song. But Ella's version with mister
Armstrong is the version.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Please start there, Please.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Please start there. More from our conversation after the break,
I feel like there's a very Beyonce tie in here.
And I don't want us to get too sidetracked, because
(24:14):
I could definitely spend the rest of this episode talking
about everything that is Renaissance. But I do feel like
you made a comment just a second ago around making music,
even when that's not what people are feeling, right like
when the world is crumbling, how artists will go within
to give the public something. And I definitely feel like
that's what Renaissance was for a lot of us when
it dropped last year and then now this year with
(24:37):
the tour, like that very much feels like summer music
for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
A gift, yes, a gift to the culture, our culture,
but a gift to the world and the universe. Like
it's an ongoing, never stopping costume party. It's like a
disco ball over the world, you know, like in the
way social media allows us to participate in each other's
(25:04):
joy to get Ready with Me videos of people listen
to me with get Ready for Me videos for a
Renaissance night, Why are people going all the way out?
Like there's this one red outfit that Beyonce has worn,
you know how she loves like a leotard, but it's
(25:25):
a long sleeve leotard and she's gonna give you a
good guarter belt and a boot and all of this.
This one woman I was watching, she is a seamstress.
She is a tailor, a designer. She created that outfit
for herself, and let me tell you the stuff that
she was using.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I was like, girl, I don't know how that's gonna
hold together.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
I feel you, but girl, wear some under it, because
I don't know what's gonna pop out. When she put
that on one, it all held together. But when she
put that on the joy of her looking at herself
and her work in her mirror and sharing that with.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
All of us.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Girl listen, I was like, Beyonce's doing work when she's
not even working, because oh my god, everybody with their
aerodesse and cowboy hats. Many people making them themselves, even
if they're not professionals with a needle and thread. Like
one woman I saw was like, I'm going to renaissance.
I'm not spending all this money though I'm doing advantage.
(26:26):
I'm doing all vintage, and I'm doing it like from
this one store, so I'm not driving all over town
the way she came out looking, I'm like, I should
have gotten more dressed up.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I saw her in London.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I guess I was at the top of the summer
and I didn't know really how deep we all needed
that until I saw folks dancing at floor level at
the concert in London. I had my fancy seats on
the riser. But at a certain point it's not good
(26:59):
enough to be fancy or renaissance.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
You got to go floor. You got to go to
the floor.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And when we did, and I was actually able to
dance with folks, see up close people's signs, see up
close people taping each other with their phones. It was
an upside down kind of joy. It really was. And
then when Blue came, we're not even discussing Blues summer
(27:28):
of really becoming herself. You know we all have that
summer too. Yes, yes, we have it at summer camp.
We have it at vacation Bible School, we have it
down south at our auntie's house where we're staying for
the summer. We have it at band camp. Blue just
happens to be having on hers on the Renaissance choir
with her where if you look at her from the
(27:54):
beginning of the tour, she was tentative, just letting the
choreography begin to live in her just figuring out what
she looks the most cute in, just figuring out the
way she's going.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
To communicate with the audience.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
And when your parents are jay Z and Beyonce, it
does get in your blood, but you still have to
figure out who you are.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And then to see.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Her now, first of all, she looks two winches hollid,
and she looked at the top of the summer. But
oftentimes that happens to us. She's so confident. Now she's
all the way to sassy. Now, yeah she is, am
I wrong?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
No? No, you are not you and not She's very
much living the choreography at this point.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yes, it's in her now, it's in her DNA. And
just to see the way she's just beaming. Yeah, And
you know, I'm gonna say that's hard work. She's learning
that too, to come out on stage every night and
do that, even just for the beats that she's out there, Right,
she still has to go through hair and makeup, costume, rehearsals, meetings,
(28:56):
all of those things. It's the ultimate summer job, right,
And I think, right, it is all right, And I
just feel that we're blessed to witness it and as
private as they can be too with their kids.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I think it's very intentional that they're allowing you.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Imagine if you're a note year old black girl right now.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yes, those are my other favorite TikTok videos of seeing
moms bring their kids to Renaiss songs and they're so
excited to see Blue.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
It isn't the best listen if I was nine her
tune right now? Would you ever forget? No? No? That
may be the real summertime jam. Right there is Miss Blue.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yes, in the Ivy League as they're calling it, it's
a summer being blue, right, but we're blue the summer blue.
So there was so many incredible songs of the summer
during your time at Vibe. So you were there from
ninety four to ninety nine, So let me just list
off some of the summer songs. So we had Janet
(29:56):
Jackson with Any Time, Any Place, Aliyah Back and Forth.
We had TLC Waterfalls, Mariah Carey, Always Be My Baby,
Monica and Brandy The Boy Is Mine, and Destiny Chow Bills,
Bill's Bills. Are there any behind the scenes stories or
moments that you can remember and share from any of
(30:19):
those songs of the summer.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
I don't know if I know behind the scenes of
the actual songs, but I do know what it was
like being in New York at that time when those
songs were out and hot, and a particular one that
I remember, it's not on your list, but it was
Buster rhymes, put your hands on my eyes can see.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Okay, let me tell you something.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And Buster's on tour right now, and I know I
haven't seen it, but I know he's turning it out
every night. He's such a friend, he's such a legend.
But the first time I heard that song, I don't
even think I was a vibey. I might have still
been in Billboard. There was a record release party for
a Boye to Men, And if you've ever been to
New York, you know what Chelsea Piers is. That's on
(31:05):
the west side of New York. And the party was
supposed to be as parties will be on the yacht
that was docked in Chelsea Piers.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
So here I am.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I'm going and it's a very snooty industry party. It's
looking like in my storm. The yacht was supposed to
take us up and down the Hudson River. Then they
announced we're not going to take the boat out because
of inclement weather. In might rain, it might be too windy,
so we're just going to stay in the dot. The
DJ and it was Kick Capri. He said, I have
(31:39):
a new record, though I don't know if you all
have parted. First of all, this is a boys to
men party. It isn't even like a party where everybody.
It wasn't even a jodasy party. Like. It was a
very bougie, you know, a linen jacket, it's swaying in
the wind type of boys and been party. He played
put your hands where my eyes could see, and I
(32:00):
think at first we were like, is this a real record?
Like it wasn't that good. I'm not gonna say the
sun came back out, but in my memory, the sun
came back out and listen, folks were taking off their shoes.
He must have played that song. Every time I tell
the story, it is a different number. He either played
that song four times, eight times, or fifteen times in
(32:22):
a row. I don't remember at this point. But what
I do remember is that I was literally wet with
sweat from dancing. This is name work party. It's not
the type of party that people even dance at there
wasn't a proper dance floor magic like New York even
(32:42):
at that time, I think, and maybe I felt this
way too, because I was a country mouse from Oakland,
California moving to the big city. But those kinds of moments,
to me, are the behind the scenes moments that matter
the most to me, even more than the times that
I've been in the studio, because it's it's one thing
to see people creating, and that's magic and it's a
(33:03):
gift in my life and it's a privilege. But I'm
not really participating except for as a witness when you
hear it with other people, like we're talking about with
the Renaissance shows and stuff, and you can't help us say,
I'm taking my shoes off because I can't dance comfortably enough.
I'm gonna dance and dance and dance. And I don't
even know you, ma'am or sir. All of a sudden,
(33:26):
we are skipping to my lou together and the sun
is out, it might rain, the wind is blowing, it's summertime. Like, oh,
so that's my best behind the scenes. I mean, I
remember when waterfalls came out. I remember all those moments
Janet Jackson, Anytime, anyplace. All of those were amazing moments.
But what I really remember about those, even more than
(33:49):
working those records as a journalist or an editor, is
when I had the chance to participate and shake my
own group thing.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And I am not.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
That girl that is a good dancer. Let me tell
you something. When music can make me forget that listen,
then that's my song.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
And right very much summer music vibes, then.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
That's my song.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
If you make me forget any awkwardness that I might
feel about myself or my body or how I move
or any of those things, that's when something becomes well,
that's my song, because that's what it's doing for me.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
More from our conversation after the break. So you started
off pretty early in this conversation talking about how Barbie
World was a quintessential summer or song. What else about
(34:48):
music this summer has been special for you? What do
you think has been special about this summer's music lineup?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's this other song? What is her name? Gucci? Gucci?
What what it is? Yes?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Wait a minute, wait a minute, Okay, I am too
much in these Instagram streets. If that song soundtracks one
more real. I'm gonna have to fight everybody. But it's
so good though, And then I didn't realize until just
this morning, when I was preparing for our conversation, I
was like, why would love this song so much? I mean, obviously,
(35:25):
Ducie has an amazing voice, has such a sweet, little
confident lilt to it or something like. I love it.
But I'm like, but what else is it about this record?
And I said him, who produced?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Who wrote? Who produced? So why is it? Somebody name
J White did it? And the thing is, you know
what else? He produced?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Bodak Yellow and I like It from Cardi b Oh wow,
both of those songs are what diamond singles. Mister White
has a little bit of a hot hand right now,
doesn't he clearly?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And then he.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Also produced the Savage remix for Megan Beyonce. Oh so,
wait a minute. This is a sweet creative partnership. And
now I think that it's going to be way beyond
just a great summer song because this person has these
diamond credentials and if they work this out right, we
(36:19):
could still be jamming this song three four years from now,
like it's new.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
So I love that. What are the other ones? That
I'm loving mine, Oh you know what I love.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
And I can't believe I'm saying it because she has
acted a fool on so many occasions. I'm covering my
eyes because I don't even want to look you in
my eyes right now when I say this, it's that
damn Miley cyrus and that I can I can give
myself flower.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
It is catchy, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Though.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I am passing the flowers at Trader Joe's, like, I
can give myself some flowers, like seriously, like, and I'm like,
she goes too far, but she says she can hold
her own hand or something like.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Girl, you said I stepped too far. I don't want
to hold my own hand now.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
But there is something so powerful about I can get
my own flowers for myself. And I'm a straight girl.
I love getting flowers from my man. It's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
But it's not everything. It's not everything.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
And to hear it said so clearly, and because it's
the hook the title of the song, you can't hide
from it.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
You don't have to look for it.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, and it's a beautiful sentiment for my Honestly, it's
a beautiful sentiment it's so strong and beautiful at the
same time. That's a summer summer song right there. That's
a skipping down the street song right there.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Like it's almost as good as what's my other one,
I'm Walking on Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Y'all can hate on me if you want to. Here's
the thing, I don't care.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Do We girls have our own individual versions of what
feels like somewhere.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Right I'm walking on Sunshine and it shot feels up. Girl.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Listen if I look, this is the therapy for Michael Show.
I've made no secret about the fact that I am
a depressive, like I'm always dealing with that, and I'm
happy to be able to even say that right now
with a smile on my face, because I used to
not be able to. But sometimes music, and I think
sometimes that's why it's been such a partner to me
(38:19):
in my life.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
When I hear a song like.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Walking on Sunshine, it does something to the chemistry in
my body, It does something to my mood. I'm not
saying it's medicinal. I'm not saying it takes the place
of therapy, but I'm saying it will function for me
as such a boost, though it will function for me
as such a like I'm going through it. I'm going
(38:41):
through it. I'm going through it, but this is helping
me get through it. And that's whether it's something as
joyous as I'm Walking on Sunshine or Hot Girl Summer.
But sometimes we need a little in my life, my life,
mym you know, and that helps as well.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Okay, so I'm gonna list of some other summer projects
to get your thoughts. What about Sexy rids Hood, how
this princiss o Why?
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Okay, And that's my whole answer right there. Also why
she's that cute ooh, I love them.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So somebody else who I think is also really tapping
into the heart of R and B right now is
Victoria Monique with Jaguard too.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Let me tell you about her. Okay.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
First of all, the music again, we go back to
what we were talking about, conversations between generations. She's so
clearly influenced by the music of the seventies and early
eighties that if you were actually there, I was a kid,
but still it pulls you in regardless of your age,
because you can find an entry point like you can
find it, and then if you're like with her age wise,
(39:53):
you don't have to have heard that music from back then, you.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Don't have to know who the emotions are.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
You can just be into it for what she's doing
because it does belong completely to her. Still, I did
a panel at one point, moderated a panel of black
women creators, and she was on the panel. And the
way her human energy, the way she presents in person,
is so chill and calming. It was giving shade, to
(40:19):
be honest, Wow, it was giving sophisticated.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It was a little bit giving. Y'all are lucky you
have time for this.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
And I'm not mad at that because she has songs
to write and things to do.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
But I say all that.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
To say I love the songs, but I also just
love very much right now, the idea of her.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I love black women making rhythm and blues.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I love black women who understand what pop actually means.
That it doesn't necessarily mean that something has to sound
like a pop song. It means you just going for
the biggest and the most. I hear that ambition in
her music, you know. So she's out of here, So
see her now before the tickets are a geopop because
(41:03):
they will be so she's that girl.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Agreed, Yes, agreed. Okay. What about Janelle Monee's The Age
of Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Let me tell you about her, Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Janelle Monee is an alien like the Voice the Chops.
As an actor, I will never forget her portraying that
scientist in Hidden Figures, the way she was able to
capture the joy of her partner in that film, giving
her those pencils to support her work and the efforts
(41:42):
that she was making. She didn't go like crazy, like
a cheerleader or anything like that. It was just this
quiet inner joy of like this person sees me. And
I've been in the presence of Jenne Monee and I
feel like that's her energy in real life. I feel
like she sees us. I hear it in her music.
(42:03):
I see it in her work in Hollywood. I see
in the way she runs her business called Wonderland, her
creative collective. In the dancing in the Clothes, We've seen
the evolution from the discipline of I will only wear
black and white. I will only wear black and white
because I'm not even here to have the surface of me.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I'm not here for that even to be discussed.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
It's just gonna be black and white, and then we've
seen how she's moved all the way over then to
so much color and so much big design to them
like and also, I'm free with my body.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Now you all won't see my body.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Y'all can see it because it's all that so again,
like maybe it's just all the girls whose last name
is gonnaame.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
They're having a moment on it being having a.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Whole moment completely they are.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
They are okay one more so, what about fly on
a boss?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
If you wish all the way over my head? No
idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
So these are the two little sisters on teach.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Oh you're about them?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
No, I love them girls just to know their name,
not hello Christ, I'm about to sitity.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Oh my god, girl.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
They're invited to any girl they can come by right
now for breakfast.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Are you kidding me? Those girls? And then now they
have to deal with the WNBA.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
I use this word a lot of times when I
speak about black women's work because we don't get the
credit for it. The amount of planning and discipline and
execution that I see in everything that they're doing it
is brilliant.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
It is the commitment. This is the commitment too.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
You know how many people probably have told them, Okay,
you guys have done that, so you guys can try
something else.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
No, we're doing this. We're doing this till it all
the way kills over and dies.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
We are doing this. People love this also, you can
see by the way they are running down the street
like bulls. I love to see it. The joy and
the strength get of my way, my way also in
the black community, to have the nerve to be saying, hello, Christ,
you know something.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Somebody's grandma was mad.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Right now, I'm about to sin again. Listen the way
I love them. And it feels so.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I could be totally wrong about this. I do not know.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
It feels so lifted from the first line of a
journal injury, because honey, I think we've all written those
two sentences at the top of a journal entry with
different words, whether it's greetings Jesus, whether it's a lah,
(44:42):
whether it's hello Universe, whether it's I'm about to f
up again, whether it's why am I doing this again?
That sentiment of I'm trying and at the same time
I don't care. It is so free to be lifted
from the journal, to be lifted from the interior to
(45:05):
being the exterior and to be executed with all that physicality.
Listen to me, I'm so mad I didn't know who
they were. And please leave that in there because I'm
dead wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
But I'll tell you what. I know that song, though
you do. I know that song and I live for it.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yes, yes, okay. So this may be a hard question.
So what would you say, definitively is your song of
the Summer for twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
It wasn't released in the summer, but people are playing
it like it was and it's kill Bill From says.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
I, Oh, I'm still that Okay.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
I'm so mature. I'm so mature. I wrote about her
for the New York Times magazine. I visited her at
her home in Malibu. To get there, unless you know
a secret way that I don't know, you have to
ride up Pacific Coast Highway.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
It's literally named.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Always as one of the most beautiful highways in the
entire world. And to me, that song just evokes just that,
driving up Pacifico's Highway with the top down, having done
something that you probably shouldn't have and you're a little
bit chastising yourself, but you're all the way enjoying yourself.
(46:25):
There's something about Scissor's voice two in general, but particularly
in this song, in her songwriting that's just kind of fearless.
I could see how that song could be written and
it could not be say, chosen for the album that
it sounds maybe a little goofy, a little unfinished, little
rough around the edges. And that's just why it is
(46:46):
such a summer song.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
It's just free. It's just free.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
It's another one, and it's so great for black women's
singers right now, that the things that we struggle with
the most, things that again we just commit to our girlfriends,
maybe over brunch or in our group chats or in
our journals, whether you're typing them or writing them down.
These feelings that people feel like, well, do black women
(47:10):
even feel that way?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Y'all are so strong. Y'all just get it, y'all get
things done.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
You guys, just manage situations are coming from our partners.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Well, you don't need me because you've got this. Sure.
It's all true, and it's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
So to see these innermost feelings coming out that aren't
even necessarily about the other, right, but about a black
woman's own self and own heart. Those are the songs
that I'm responding to. Whether it's as we just mentioned,
Hello Christ, I'm about to sin again, or whether it's like,
(47:49):
you know, you just keep somebody's car, honey, not that
I know anything about that, and you've got away with it, and.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
You know you're wrong, you know you're wrong.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
You're like, I'm so mature, You're being sarcastic with yourself.
But at the same time, it's like, I was mad, though,
and you did do that to me. And I'm not
saying it's writer or it's okay to quote Whitney Houston,
but what is okay it's for black women to be
saying how they feel about themselves. So often we're singing
about I miss you so much, I'm gonna love you forever,
(48:24):
I'm want to jump on the midnight train to Georgia,
come back to me child, anytime, anyplace. And all these
are beautiful songs. I could listen to them in a
row right now, be happy for the rest of the day.
But sometimes what's missing is us singing about how we
feel about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
And it's happening now.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
I think a lot of the energy of rap and
women in rap is spilling over into women in R
and B in black pop.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That I'm talking about me, what's going on with me?
Speaker 3 (48:58):
Good, bad or otherwise mature or immature, and it's delicious,
it's heartening.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I love that. That's a beautiful answer. So Danyelle will
remind the community where we can stay connected with you.
It is your website as well as any social media
channels you want to share.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
I am Danielle Smith and that is spelled d A
and y E L. Smith.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
You can find me at what remains of Twitter. You
can find me on Facebook, but I'm there rarely. If
you really want to find me, come on over to Instagram,
come on over to threads, come on over to spill,
come on over to Spoutable. I'm there either as Danamo
Da n A m O, which is my high school
nickname Danamo because I was such a little Dynamo if
you can imagine, and you can also find me. Just
(49:44):
google Danielle Smith and shine Bright and you will find
the thing that I'm most proud of, which is my book,
Shine Bright, which is a very personal history of black
women in pop music. It was named by Pitchwork as
the music book of twenty twenty two, and it's the
nearest and dearest thing to my heart. And if you
want to hear my voice talking so much mess as
(50:06):
I'm talking here with Doctor Joy, you can also just
go to Spotify search Black Girl's Songbook and you can
hear my podcast where I'm always telling stories about black
women in music and also about myself as a black
woman in music, as the former editor in chief of
Vibe and Billboard and all the many things that I've done.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Indeed, we will be sure to include all of that
in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending
more time with us today. Always talk so fun. I'm
so glad Danielle was able to join us once again
to share her expertise. To learn more about her and
her work, or to grab your copy of Shine Bright,
(50:47):
visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com
slash Session three twenty three, and don't forget to text
two of your girls right now and encourage them to
check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist
in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com slash directory. And if you want
to continue digging into this topic, or just be in
community with other sisters. Come on over and join us
(51:10):
in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the
Internet designed just for black women. You can join us
at Community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode
was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
(51:31):
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Which friend are you and your sister circle? Are you
the wallflower, the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader? Take
the quiz at Sisterhoodheels dot com slash quiz to find out,
(51:51):
and then make sure to grab your copy of Sisterhood
Heels to find out more about how you can be
a better friend and how your circle can do a
better job of supporting you. Order yours today at sisterhood
Heels dot com.
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