September 20, 2023 • 43 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
It’s Sex Positive September, and in celebration, we're diving back into our catalog to when Dr. Lexx Brown-James joined us to discuss Black women’s sexuality agency and pleasure. When this episode was initially released, Cardi B & Meg the Stallion had just dropped WAP and the single set the internet on fire. In a new timely release, Meg and Cardi are back with another hit, "Bongos,” a sex-positive anthem perfect for celebrating Sex Positive September. In this episode, Dr. Lexx and I tackled the stereotypes often associated with Black women's sexuality, shame, respectability politics, and agency's role in sexual liberation. We also explored ways to confront our sexual shame and foster healthier attitudes toward sexuality for the next generation.
Resources & Announcements
Visit our Amazon Store for all the books mentioned on the podcast.
Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals.
Where to Find Dr. Lexx
Grab a copy of Dr. Lexx's children's book
Listen to Dr. Lexx dispel the myth that relationships have to be hard work in Session 164 of the podcast.
Listen to Dr. Lexx discuss getting rid of sexual shame on Session 55 of the podcast.
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Our Production Team
Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard
Producers: Fredia Lucas, Ellice Ellis & Cindy Okereke
Production Intern: Zariah Taylor
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three twenty five of the
Therapy from Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. The reviews for
Sisterhood Heels are rolling in and I simply cannot stop
smiling at the hot girl books on Instagram shared finish
(01:19):
reading this warm hug of a book last night, and
while it made me want to hug my sister friends
so bad, Sisterhood Heels is a beautiful guide on how
we as black women can use our community and friends
to aid in our healing process. Thank you so much
for the beautiful review.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Have you grabbed your copy yet? Get one for yourself
and a friend at Sisterhoodheels dot com. It's sex positive September,
and in celebration, we're diving back into our catalog. So
when Doctor Lex Brown James joined us to discuss Black
women's sexuality, agency and pleasure. When this episode was initially released,
(02:01):
Cardi b and Meg the Sallion had just dropped Wop
and the singles set the Internet on fire. Well, Meg
and Cardi are back, this time with another hit, Bongos,
a sex positive anthem that is just perfect for sex
positive September. In this episode, Doctor Lex and I tackled
the stereotypes often associated with Black women's sexuality, shame, respectability, politics,
(02:25):
and agencies role in sexual liberation, and we explored ways
to confront our sexual shame and foster healthier attitudes towards
sexuality for the next generation. Press play on this episode
and let's celebrate sex positive September. Thank you so much
for joining us again today, doctor Lex.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Thank you for having me back. I love it here.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
We're always happy to have you back. I really appreciate
you sliding into my dms, Like, Hey, can we talk
about this you.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Have created just touch the per perfect platform.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So tell me lex what was your initial reaction to
the visuals as well as audio.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So in my chest, my reactions were my knee still
got it. That's what I thought initially, like I could
drop down and get back up, and I didn't fall out,
nor did I die. So I was really proud of
myself out of that. And it was so free. There
was a nineties nostalgia. You know, I grew up in Atlanta,
(03:30):
I grew up in College Park, so here in Frank
Ski on the radio was normal and regular every morning,
and I was like, look at this homage, look at
this homage, and that was unexpected. And then all of
the commentary and it's all based on this over sexualization
of black women. And I was like, Okay, let's see
(03:51):
where this goes. But everybody only defaulted to this over
sexualization of the black women based on this Jezebel stereotape.
The Jezebel stereotpe is the idea that black women typically
our class figured, lighter skin and with some type of
non kinky hair. I think the mulatto type woman is
(04:15):
sexually overt and think Carmen Jones, right, so Carmen in
that movie would be the idea of a Jezebel. But
people forget the conversation where black women and their sexualization.
They're also sexualized as Mammy's so fat, dark skinned black
women who have kink gear hair, who are considered not
(04:37):
necessarily sexual, right because they're not the Jezebel, and yet
they reproduce and take care of children. And then there's
also the Sapphire, And the Sapphire is comes from Amos
and Andy right and is considered that kind of ballbuster
type woman who is like, oh, well, you can't handle me,
and attitudinal and think maybe like a Claire Huxtable type,
(05:01):
I will tell you when we will be together in
this way. And then there's the superwoman, So the Black superwoman,
this idea that black women can make a dollar out
of fifteen cents and take care of the communities and
their children and their partners and their job and they're
never exhausted or tired and always have this pleasant attitude
(05:22):
and considered asexual right because they're so strong and they
don't even need sex, and nobody's willing to like really
broach them because they don't need to have this physical
pleasure or satisfaction in their lives. We have all of
these other stereotypes and the only one that people wanted
to focus on was the Jezebel And I was like, huh,
(05:43):
well that's pigeonholing.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So why do you think that is? Do you think
that people aren't even aware of all of these other stereotypes.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think they're aware, but I don't think that their
sexuality is as amped up. And I think that a
black woman in charge of her own sexual pleasure is
scary for some folks. We have a lot of shame.
I was personally told as a child to call my
vagina a pocketbook because I am a Southerner, and you
(06:11):
keep your pocketbook closed and you keep it off the floor. Right,
those are the two things you learned. And I was like, huh,
that's interesting. Why would it ever be on the floor.
But the idea that if you have this own sexual pleasure,
you're some type of hope, you're some type of one
time over sexualized quote unquote, not wifey material. H Right,
(06:34):
And so I don't think the other ones get as
much play because they are somewhat more acceptable.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, because the sexuality, like you said, is not as
overt so it might be okay for those things to
be happening, but everybody doesn't know about it. Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And a lot of the commentary I saw doctor Lex
was around just this whole idea, like is this appropriate
especially right now right? So people it felt like we're
you know, offended or really shocked, especially given everything that's
(07:03):
happening in the world right now that we have this
overly sexual you know, like women reclaiming their sexuality or
claiming their sexuality in a way that feels like it
might not fit with like everything going on in the
world right now, right.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And my question is when better? When better to do
it while we are having movements towards black liberation and freedom,
right when we are having more time maybe to ourselves
at home to have these conversations, When better to talk
about what sexual liberation looks like. I've had clients who
(07:39):
didn't know what the different parts of their role are were.
They're calling their clitterists a third nipple, right, or scared
to say any of the words that are in WAW right,
especially the pee part. They can't say that word out
loud or they whisper it very low. Yeah, because of
the shame and that we've not supposed to talk about this,
(08:01):
and they suffer in their sex lives. They don't say
this isn't pleasurable, or this hurts or I really want
to try doing this a different way because they don't
think they're allowed to. They don't have that permission and
nobody ever gave them that permission. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You know, doctor Lex, you talked about sexual shame, right, Like,
I know a lot of your work sensors on that.
So I want to hear you talk more about like
how that shame does play out, because I don't think
that people necessarily recognize that what they're experiencing in their
reaction to this video or other things is shame.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Child Look, because the interweaves are talking and the level
of respectability politics, and I've triped this a couple of
times online at this point. Right, So, the idea that
black women are inherently sexual and they get over sexualized,
and it's true, there is the adultification of young black girls,
(08:56):
and there's an adultification of black males too. They're sexual
from puberty and they want sex, right, is a misnomer
and it is put on black bodies undoubtedly this conversation
and WOP are two different conversations. We're talking about being
able to enjoy pleasure, so vasal congestion, big fun words
(09:19):
because I like dropping big fun words. Here is when
the genitals are actually blood and it can happen from
an allergy, it happen from arousal. It can happen because
like you just need extra bloodslow in that region. For
some reason, canal starts to lubricate during arousal and excitement. Right,
(09:39):
and the vaginal canal can even change colors a lighter
pink to a deeper red or a crimson or even
a purple. Right because it is saying like I'm excited
for this, we can start to own that it is
okay for you to have pleasure and a society that's
been taught that you're not supposed to have pleasure, you're
supposed to sell sacrifice for goodness, and for black women specifically,
(10:03):
because some colonizers saw some bare breasted African women on
the coast and was like, oh, they must have sex
all the time because their breasts are always out, and
because they felt aroused by seeing this, by seeing this
natural state of being and the body in this way,
they posited that on those African women, and that is
(10:28):
the narrative that has been used to scapegoat abuse of
Black women and girls throughout time. And so to fight
back against that narrative, it's you have to be as
prim and proper as possible, because this is what world
already believes about you. And WOP takes that and throws
it out the window, saying like, why am I gonna
(10:49):
go I'm gonna decolonize my perspective? Why do I have
to believe what these people have said about me all
the time? Why do I have to be this way
to be respected? You know?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Brionna Holt had a beautiful quote. So she just wrote
a piece for Complex all about Wow, and she says
black women have little to no control of how society
views us with or without party. In Megan's collab, black
women shaking their butts and describing their sex life and
music is not what says black women back. It's the
people who justify harm toward us because of these actions.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
And that sounds like what you're talking.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
About exactly exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying, right, And
we see that in rape culture, right. Well, she was
wearing a short streat she was asking for it, or
she drank too much at a party, or she's had
sex with this many people, so it must have meant
that she wanted it. Now, when we think about again
the dultification of young black girls, it's oh, well, she's
(11:46):
developed enough, her body is ready, And I'm like, that's
not what this is. This is literally saying I can
enjoy my body. I feel empowered through the pleasure of
my body, and I know what pleases my body, and
there's power in that and starting to recognize that power
that is being owned, you.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Know, do I feel like that?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Is?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Another part of what I have been observing is people
talking about, well, how is this not a continuation of
the conversation of the adultification of black girls, Like what
kind of message is descending to our young black girls?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
M hm, Well, part of it is when you've grown,
you got grown folks business, right, grown.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Folks business at the facing level.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And so growing up, I had an interesting childhood and
a very liberal parent. So I learned about a lot
about sex and sexuality, which was amazing because it helped
me right So to Studies show that the more that
kids learn about sexuality so not just intercourse, not just penetration,
but whole sexuality body is being, intimacy, consent, talking about
(12:56):
expression of self, all of those things. The longer they
will actually wait, and the more likely they're going to
be to use protection when they decide to engage in
some type of intercourse or outer course, all that to
be said. Growing up, I got to attend hen parties
with my mom and my aunties who are really my neighbors,
but y'all know how that goes, right, So and their
(13:19):
kids are my cousins and or my nieces and nephews,
depending on our age. And I got to go to
hen parties where they would talk about, you know, being
with these guys when I was a teenager and ex
boyfriends and how some things did work and how somethings didn't.
And I'm like, Wow, there's a whole world in this.
There's a whole world in like this power of feminine
(13:40):
attitude and ownership that a lot of us don't get
to know about a lot of us is saying, oh,
you'll find that out when you're supposed to find that out.
But our mentors not aren't necessarily comfortable guiding us, and
so we have to learn through pain instead of learning
through wisdom. And I'd rather folks learn through wisdom to
(14:01):
learn cooking.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So I wonder if you can offer some strategies to
people about how that can happen, right, because I think
the messaging that young women often get is just keep
your legs closed, right, Like people will figure that out,
like you said, when you're older. But who am I
going to figure it out from if like nobody's talking
to me about it? So what kinds of things do
you think people can do to impart this wisdom?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Right? So I can give an example for my own life.
So I have trolling kids. I call them hayton A babies.
Those are my habs. And my oldest hab is a
volva owner and said it's okay that I call her
by she or he pronounced not say. And one day
was sitting on my lap and tends to be news
(14:46):
because she's three and that's what life is right now.
So sit on my lot and started like touching her
volva and I was like, are you touching your volva?
And she says, yeah, it's nice. I'm like, it is nice,
and and we didn't talk about consent of you touching
your volvo while you were on me. I'm a little
bit uncomfortable, and I'd really like for you to do
(15:07):
that in your own private space when you're by yourself,
like your room, or if you want to go to
the bathroom and do that, that's absolutely fine. And she
was like, well, I kind of want to watch the
Magic School Bus. I was like, okay, we can continue
watching the Magic School Bus. And then she was like, well,
let me go wash my hands again. And I was like,
thank you for doing that, and went off and washed
(15:28):
her hands again and came back and sat on my
lap and didn't touch your vulva anymore. Right, all of
that says, yes, it's nice to touch your vova. It
is absolutely okay to touch your vova. It is not
okay to touch your volva while you were on me. Right,
this is not a private place to do. So please
go do that in a private place, or you can
stop and do it later. But we're not shaming, right,
(15:49):
And some people are like, well, my kid's not three,
my kid is sixteen and trying to be out here
in these streets during COVID and et cetera, et cetera.
It's time to talk to them. About one. If they're
out in me s, if they are doing things that
were they're sexually active, is it pleasurable for them? Have
you taught your child how to advocate for their own
pleasure and what that looks like. I've never met a
(16:10):
parent yet who says I want my kids to have
a crappy sex life. I've not yet met that parent. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Most parents are just like, I don't want them to
have a sex life period.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Right, And that's absolutely okay and absolutely unrealistic. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
If they choose that, then fine, but not just because you.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Want it exactly exactly right. And even folks who identify
as asexual might have some type of romantic or physically
pleasurable intercourse or sexual play. So it's saying, hey, have
you checked in with your body and to see what
feels nice? Right? How do you tell somebody no, you
don't want to do something, or yes, you do want
(16:50):
to do something. We do leave that part out. We
teach people how to say no all the time, we
don't really teach them how to say yes around their
physical empowerment and enjoyment, especially when they're adolescents.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I think this goes back to your earlier statement. Though,
and even our first conversation with you here on the
podcast about sexual shame, right, because I don't know that
as a parent you can have that conversation with your
kids if you have not done some of the work
of like releasing your own sexual shame.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Agreed. Agreed, well, and I will contend that some parents
that I've seen say, I just don't want to do
what my parents did to me. Right. Yeah, so you
woke up and you just found a book on your
bookshelf and it was like, okay, what is this about?
Or they hated you a book was like come to
me if you have any questions. You were like, I'm
(17:37):
not coming to talk to you. This is strange because
they were also really uncomfortable. So I've seen parents say
like I want to do differently for my child and
figuring out what that looks like. And that also might
be saying we have an askeable adult, right, Like I'm
a t t to my lying sister's kids, right. So
those are my line nieces and my line nephews. And
(17:58):
so I've had my nieces come to me and be like, Hey,
this is what's going on. I need some help, t Lex.
What do we do and I am, and I'm like, hey,
your kid wants to have a conversation with me. Is
this okay with you? So I check in with consent,
not necessarily about the topic, but saying can I be
that askable person and are you comfortable with that? And
(18:19):
they're like yes, I'm okay. And I tell the same
thing to the team, like, hey, I'm gonna talk to
your mom to make sure it's okay you talk to me,
and then we can put some boundaries around it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I love the concept of an askable adult and matter
as that we trust yeah, because it feels like okay,
even if maybe I haven't done my own work to
be comfortable with this conversation, if there is an auntie
or somebody who they can have this conversation within, the
conversation still happens exactly exactly. I've not yet met a
parent that was like, if I feel safe with this
(18:50):
adult to help me parents these kids, I'm be like nah, right.
It's different if it's some random stranger that you don't
know or who you're just getting to know. But if
it's somebody you're super close and you trust their opinion
and you all have like values and you're like, Okay,
this person's knowledgeable about this.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
I trust them. I want my kid to have help.
I want my kid to have support. Then we're building
those communities, and so making sure you have somebody who
is sex positive in your community can be integral. So
when these kids see why, because it's gonna happen, right
and the internet is everywhere. Kids are way more savvy
and deleting cookies nowadays than we were we were, and
(19:26):
deleting browser history, and so they're gonna see it and
they'll be like, I noticed you were interested in this,
What were you interested in?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So making it a conversation as again opposed to shaming
mm hmm, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And say like, I'm not really comfortable with you consuming
this type of adult content, so we can we talk
about what was interesting and maybe find like the information
you were looking for.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, And it also feels it also feels really interesting
that people are reacting to this as if this is
the first time we have seen women clean their sexuality
in a music video or in lyrics, right, Like, this
comes from a long history of other female rappers and
women in music who have done similar kinds of things.
So why do you think the reaction has been so strong.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Well so, I think this is the first time it's
been so in your face. All right, I will tell
you I got my life from that fountain.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
In the entry of the video, the fountain was rather
cool as a whole former breastfeeding mom like, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Thank you, doctor Joy. I told my other psychologist friends.
We were fighting. Wait, we scrapping because I hadn't seen it,
and they had started conversations, and you know, I have
little ones. I don't always get a chance to look
at things up to date. I was like, let me
go look at this video. And I saw that fountain,
and I was like, is that from their numbers? It is?
And none of them saw the breastfeeding or the nursing
(20:50):
chesticles that I saw. They were like, I saw the hair,
and I saw the pose, and I thought about little Kim,
and I was like, but you ain't see this nursing
parent who oftentimes feels touched out or maybe even unwanted
or uncertain about their bodies. And it's a celebration of yes,
you can bust the wide open and still be a
nurse and parent and take advantage of those full and
(21:11):
gorged boobs while they're sitting up right and enjoy some
of that sexual play too. So yes, thank you doctor
Joy for confirming that for me. Like the Obi won,
I was like, all right, yeah, I got yall, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, it definitely has felt like the backlash has felt different.
And I'm trying to remember, like the last video we
had that might have given us the same kind of reaction.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I don't was it well, I don't remember. I'm not
the person for music an art. I remember Tweet, and
I remember that I was not old enough to be
singing about Tweet when my neck in my back was out. Yeah.
But I'm just remembering, you know, growing up seeing Freaknick
and hearing Trina and here in low Cam and Foxy
Brown and seeing those things right, and seeing those same
(22:14):
things and hearing the same terms, and people have sung
about sex.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
This is the beginning of time, right, Like our mothers
and grandmothers, like they all had similar content in terms
of lyric. Now, it may not have been as descriptive
or like as pointed, but everybody has been singing about
sex for a very long time, for.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
A very long time, right, And that's the other part
of that it is liberating to be like I can
just say this out loud. And that's part of our
sex therapy model. Right. The first step in our sex
therapy model is permission giving. Right, it's saying I give
you permission to talk about these things. I give you
permission to say them out loud. I typically take that
a step further and use it also for consent, like
(22:54):
do you have me permission to talk about this with you,
and ensuring that that conversation is safe for everybody in
a room, and also giving people permission to pass, like
if it's too uncomfortable, we don't have to talk about it.
But we don't see black women rappers get held up
in the same light when we see black mail rappers
(23:14):
talking about the same thing. Right, Yeah, the black male
rappers have talked about sex and how many people they
want to run through, and how they like their sex,
and how they want a sex kitten and a video
fixing and how they hit it from behind, et cetera,
et cetera, and don't get the same scrutiny. They don't
get the same scrutiny. And yet when a woman talks
(23:35):
about her own body part and how it functions, she's
now all of a sudden, the hue and uncouth.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Right, the discrepancy feels very jarring to me. Right, Like
when male rappers release these same kinds of songs, there
is very little to know criticism of these kinds of things,
but it feels like people really are reacting to the
fact that these women have their agency to talk about
what brings them pleasure in that it's okay for us
(24:04):
to talk about these things as women because.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
We don't hear about the black book, which is a
male sexual stereotype for black men, right, that he always
wants sex, that his appetite is insatiable, that he has
a super large, superhuman penis and is able to just
have as much sex as he wants for as long
as he wants, right, and even saying those things out loud,
quote unquote, They're not supposed to be horrible for men, right.
(24:28):
Men are supposed to function like that. When we think
about toxic masculinity, anything outside of that narrative is supposed
to be non masculine. And it's that embracing of this
hyper masculinity and this toxic masculinity that I also think
reflects back on like wait, what you're trying to be
in power sexually. Nah. Now I'm not cool with that
(24:49):
because now it feels threatening. So it's I want a
sex kitten, and I think I put this in a meme.
I want a sex kitten. I want somebody who's going
to do sex tricks. And women are like, wow, I'm
putting on you. And then dudes are like, nah, not
like that.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
You will help.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
House? Right?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
How good? How does it come together? I do want
to hear more about that than your thoughts about that,
Like if people are just not recognizing how contradictory those
messages are, right, like that, it's okay for you to
do all these things if I say that you do them,
or if I encourage you to do them, but if
you initiate it, then it's a problem.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
And I think that comes from that power piece, right,
it's I have power over you, or I have influence
over you. I can own part of this narrative. Well,
I'm the one who made her that way, right, t
Pain says, Now she liked Pain right because he taught
her how to do it. And so there's a powers
there that adds to that ego. But it's not necessarily
(25:48):
theirs to own. It's the own individual persons to own.
And I think we get that in sexuality. In my
own study, black women having sex, and this is about
but most of the black women in that study believed
that during sex there was a power exchange. There's an
(26:08):
exchange of power during that intimacy. And this is that
two hundred and fifty women just about. So there was
an exchange of power that happened during this sexual exchange
and intercourse. And they believe that. And so if they
believe that, right, and they're with another person who believes that,
then it's yeah, now I have some type of power.
(26:30):
Now I'm part of your narrative. Now I'm part of
your story and you are because of me.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So we know that when women become more liberated, that
leads to liberation for everybody. So it does feel like
people are working against their best interest in working against
women being more sexually liberated. Yes, that sexual liberation of
saying I'm owning my body, I'm owning my pleasure and
I am wet for this, and you'd be like, nah,
(26:58):
I don't want that. That may sounds so ridiculous, It
sounds so ridiculous, But how do you think that then
maybe does help men to even feel more comfortable with
their own liberation.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I think it also gives remember that permission piece I
was talking about. It gives them permission too to say
I don't have the mind read do you like this?
Do you like that? I'm gonna try this right, and
it's taxing. And one thing, if you're a woman who
was sleeping with men, the penis doesn't like pressure. It
(27:30):
does not like pressure. It's something that just like it
was really hard and stress really do affect penile performance.
So tell me what you like, show me what you like,
and puzzle typically begets arousal. So the sounds, a noise,
(27:53):
the the what was the song? The macaroni and cheet
sound right, Those things say I'm ready for you and
want you can be such a turn on that it
could be get more arousal and saying like, oh, I
know exactly how to please this person. I know exactly
(28:14):
what this vaginal canal wants. I know exactly what this
cluitterist wants. I know exactly what whatever these nipples, these toes,
this elbow, the back of the neck, whatever it is,
I know what it wants. And that helps my own
sexual self esteem, and so you can give that gift
through your own self exploration to your lover. You can
(28:36):
give that gift of enhancing their sexual self esteem because
they listen to exactly what you needed, and we're able
to help you facilitate pleasure.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So where do you think we can start to kind
of break down on some of that doctor lex like
how can we help people to kind of get out
of that contradiction?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
So I think one is starting with some of these conversations, right,
So listening to this podcast, listening to sex poseive folks,
hearing out all sorts of perspectives, right, because again we
live in America, so most of our perspectives come from America.
But looking outside of ourselves. I have a book called
Like the African Reader about sexuality from various parts of
(29:17):
Africa that helped me like, oh look, other people have
sung and talked about hymen's and vagina's. Look at that
and there's power in that. So starting to explore some
of our understanding. The other one, Pleasure Activism is the
great book. And then The Body Is Not an Apology
is a great book. Yeah, because we do have to externalize,
(29:40):
like hey, this is how you've been taught to see yourself.
What do you actually believe about yourself and the skin
that you're in and the body that you have that's
outside of everybody else's opinions and constraints. Then you start
to explore your pleasure. Do you actually like when your
lover snacks your butt like that? Or is it fun
(30:00):
for them? Do you want to be I don't know, choked,
or do you want your toe sucked? Or do you
want the back of your knee licked at the right place,
I don't know, whatever it is, explore for yourself what
really feels good for you, and then being able to
voice some of that which has statistically been found better
to happen. And I will say periment apostle and postman
(30:21):
aposal women. So there's doctor joy, a level of cares
that you no longer give. Right after a certain point,
you're able to verbalize like I don't have confidence, I
don't like that, do it this way. And there's some
relief in also not being fearful of like getting pregnant
(30:42):
things like that. But there is a level that comes
with comfortability with your body at that point. For a
lot of women identify folks before that, so before your
mid to late forties. Folks, Babe, I really don't like that.
Can we try it a different way? Or it really
turns tends me on when I'm really into If please
(31:04):
keep doing that, it feels so good, right, So, having
some of that scripted language to encourage and also center
your own pleasure during this time. It is not your
lover's job to give you pleasure. It's your job to
help your lover facilitate pleasure for yourself and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
You know, doctor Lex, listening to you talk about that
study that talks about like postmitalpausal, it feels like a
part of what WAB does is give people language for
like censoring their own pleasure that you can start asking
for that even earlier in your life.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Please please ask for that even earlier in your life.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
It can be celebratory too, right right, not something that's
just so hidden in so away. And when we're talking
about wo, I also want to just plug that it
doesn't matter how you get a walk, right, So, if
it is a natural occurring lubrication, if it is an
added lubrication that is water based or silicon based, you do
not use silicon based if you were going to use
a silicon toy, right, enjoy that. People who are nursing,
(32:16):
you need to automatically add a lubricant. It does not
make you any less than if you're using a lubricant.
It just makes everything feel better. And I can say
I had a ooh over a seventy five year old
client who said that they had great lubrication and yet
they still had some burning when there was some digital penetration.
(32:38):
And I was like, that means there's not a lot
of lubrication. You need more about that, and she was
like oh. And so I sent them some lubricant samples
and I got a call back from the partner and
from the client and they were like, hey, can we
buy more of this where it from? And I was like,
I'm happy to to this website to get more of it. Right.
(33:03):
So it's that permission to start off younger and for
my own kids. But both of my kids are Volva owners,
and I want them to have pleasure with their bodies
again learning through wisdom and not through pain. So I
want to make sure like, hey, you know what, if
it doesn't feel good, you say stop or I want
you to be careful with your own body. So this
is why you wash your hands before you touch your
(33:23):
vovas and we don't stick to like random things in
our volvas. Right, all of this type of stuff are
important to talk about what feels good in our bodies,
and this pleasure doesn't necessarily always have to be sexual either,
as sexual Aswap is right, there's also pleasure from that empowerment.
I can be on top and I can own this
and say I'm gonna say my own name right because
(33:45):
i own this, and I'm a spell it for you
because I'm that good, and that can be empowering and
uplifting as well.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, you know, the other thing that I think, you
know it's important to think about in terms of this conversation,
doctor Lex, is that it feels like like women feeling
empowered about their sexuality doesn't really just stop like in
the bedroom, because it feels like there is this part
of like specifically with Meg, right. You know, we know
(34:13):
that she was recently shot and there was of course
again conversation about like how people were not taking it
seriously and like all the jokes and memes about it,
and it feels like a part of why it was
not taken this seriously is because she is so sexy, right,
so she is not seen as this like helpless woman,
you know, that kind of thing, and so it feels
(34:33):
like there is like a convulsion of those worlds and
that her sexuality has also made her view people as
somebody that it was okay to like joke about her
being harmed.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Mm hmmm mm hmmm. So those are those respectability politics
coming in again. Right, You're not worthy of decent human
empathy from somebody harming you, right, So this was violent, yes, right,
And she's lucky she survived because if it would have
been anywhere else in her body, or if she would
have been majorly injured, then everybody would be like, oh
(35:06):
my gosh, rip right and playing albums and dedication songs.
And we have to realize that happens to real folks
in everyday life all the time, all the time. And
the specifically I'll definitely say specifically for black trans women too.
They are killed for existing because it challenges this power
(35:29):
dynamic that men find it threatening. So men find their
attraction threatening. And it's similar here saying that oh, you're
too sexy or you're too much and that threatens this
idea of my masculinity because now I'm not the sexually
dominant one. That's really problematic and really scary that people
would be like, oh, this is so funny. And I
(35:50):
saw something about that, like then I read about it
the meme from Boys in the Hood or Beyonce I
got bit in the face by another woman and everybody
want to be an oppera mm hmm, And I was like,
there is no difference, Like a human is a human, right,
and she still still deserves the same respect whether she's
busting it open or not. You know.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
The other thing that I thought was really cool about
the video was that they brought other women in, right,
So it also felt like this like celebration, like this
sisterhood of sexuality, right, like that we are not only
going to talk about our own, but we're gonna also
invite other people to talk about theirs or at least
share a piece of theirs.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Again, and there's no shame in our game. And we're
not the only ones. Look at all of us. All
of us have some form of sexiness that's our own
that we can all own. And I think that was
so empowering. It reminded me of what was that song,
Ladies Night.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Ladies Night, Yah, the cameos.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
For the mansion. Now, I have no idea what my
roomor looked like, but it can't be that cheetah room.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
But it's funny that one, right, And so I was like,
this is so cool.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Every had their own space, and I think that was
metaphor you all have your own space be create exactly
who you want to be sexual mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
And then one person's sexuality doesn't have to like compromise
or be in competition with.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yours exactly because it's abundance. Yeah, we're coming from a
Her level of sexy doesn't take away from your level
of sexy, right right, right? What she does? And I
think we've been taught that, right. What's that saying? Anything
you won't do another woman will yes to hang on
to some trifling person? Just why why do you want
(37:35):
him if he wants her sex? Right, or maybe I'm
open to it, and like he can have her sex
and he can have my sex, or she can go
have his sex. Like whatever, we're not from we're not
from scarcity, We're from abundance. This person isn't a threat
to you. And if you all decide like these are
your boundaries that you're not with other people, maybe you
can learn something new that you might enjoy, or you
(37:58):
all can figure that out together. But whatever one person
does doesn't take away from your own because everybody has
their own lane.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, So, doctor Alex, I knew that you were going
to be up on this video because this is kind
of in line with you know, what you do and
how you work with clients, right, And I think that
that's an important part of the conversation too. It's just
as therapist, how like this kind of information can be
helpful with our clients. So I know you have already
started using this in your clinical work, right I have.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I have. I have a client who is just so
empowered and who like, listen to Foxy Brown and look
Cam and loved it and then had never seen the
video brings back nostyle that with Holly Berry and the
fact that apps where we're not necessarily about these respectability
(38:50):
politics and adopting all of them. It was We're going
to be who we are and that's good enough for
whatever socioeconomic class we're in and whatever world we're in.
And I was like, you gotta go watch Baps talking
about some self acceptance and that was her homework. I
was like, go watch Baps. You love this video. I
need you to have some context. Go watch bas and
(39:11):
Baps is about these two black chicks from the hood.
All they wanted to do was like one wanted to
be a dancer and a heavy d video and that
was her life goal. And they left the men that
they were with for not feeling accepted and encouraged and
a whole bunch of other stuff. If you haven't gotten
to see Bats, go watch Baps, y'all right for this week.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I don't know, it's probably on like a hood or
Netflix something.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
I would wow, it's probably on YouTube at the page
and it's probably at this point. But yeah, so just
learning more and again it's all about that self acceptance.
I think that really is key of giving yourself permission
to exist, to breathe without the sphere of this biblical Jezebel,
(39:54):
without this fear of being rejected based on your sexuality.
Because if a person rejects you, then that's not the
person for you. It's not the person you're meant to
be with. You know.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Something else that has really heartened me just kind of
following like the Twitter threads is that it feels like
so both Halle Berry and Viola Davis were like photo
shopped into different parts of the video, and they both
have like retweeted.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
They're like photo shops stop it. I love it, which
feels really empowering to me. I think in that it
is you know, like this older generation of women kind
of like saying like, yes, we.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Like co sign right, so we are also rejecting these
respectability politics that you know, like we can't also be sexy.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yes, exactly, and especially for Viola Davis right, yes, being
a darker skinned and with kinky hair, and like Viola
Davis's arms are amazing and a muscular build, right, yes, yes,
Sam yup, I could definitely be in this video and
owning not I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yes, it was very very I really appreciated her sharing
her you know, like nonverbal co signing so to speak
with the video. Yeah, so, doctor Lex, tell people where
they can find you. I know you were recently here,
but maybe people miss your last episode. We will of
course include both of your previous appearances in the show notes,
(41:19):
but tell people where they can find you.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
You can find me at Lex. That's Ledublex sex sex
dotdoc dot com and you can subscribe to my website
for all of the following updates. You can check out
the new upcoming Conflict Resolution Couples course I have for
the spark a virtual brunch and you'll get some one
on one time with me about ninety minutes wor to
(41:44):
talk about resolving conflict, showing up how you really are.
I know we're all trying to be together as much
as we can in the most positive ways right now,
and that's what that course really does. And then I'm
lexex doc across all social media platforms, so that's Facebook, Instagram.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And Twitter perfect and we'll add that to the show
notes as well. Thank you so much, Lex.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
A huge thank you to doctor Lex Brown James for
joining us again for this episode, so learn more about
her and her work. Be sure to visit the show
notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three
twenty five, and don't forget to visit Sexpositive September dot
com for all of the other incredible conversations we're having
this month. If you're looking for a therapists in your area,
(42:34):
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
com slash directory and if you want to continue digging
into this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas,
(42:58):
Alise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care. What's The reviews for Sisterhood
(43:18):
Heels are rolling in and I simply cannot stop smiling
at the hot girl books on Instagram shared finish reading
this warm hug of a book last night and while
it made me once a hug my sister friend so bad,
Sisterhood Heels is a beautiful guide on how we as
black women can use our community and friends to aid
in our healing process. Thank you so much for the
(43:41):
beautiful review. Have you grabbed your copy yet? Get one
for yourself and a friend at Sisterhoodheels dot com.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three twenty five of the
Therapy from Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. The reviews for
Sisterhood Heels are rolling in and I simply cannot stop
smiling at the hot girl books on Instagram shared finish
(01:19):
reading this warm hug of a book last night, and
while it made me want to hug my sister friends
so bad, Sisterhood Heels is a beautiful guide on how
we as black women can use our community and friends
to aid in our healing process. Thank you so much
for the beautiful review.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Have you grabbed your copy yet? Get one for yourself
and a friend at Sisterhoodheels dot com. It's sex positive September,
and in celebration, we're diving back into our catalog. So
when Doctor Lex Brown James joined us to discuss Black
women's sexuality, agency and pleasure. When this episode was initially released,
(02:01):
Cardi b and Meg the Sallion had just dropped Wop
and the singles set the Internet on fire. Well, Meg
and Cardi are back, this time with another hit, Bongos,
a sex positive anthem that is just perfect for sex
positive September. In this episode, Doctor Lex and I tackled
the stereotypes often associated with Black women's sexuality, shame, respectability, politics,
(02:25):
and agencies role in sexual liberation, and we explored ways
to confront our sexual shame and foster healthier attitudes towards
sexuality for the next generation. Press play on this episode
and let's celebrate sex positive September. Thank you so much
for joining us again today, doctor Lex.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Thank you for having me back. I love it here.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
We're always happy to have you back. I really appreciate
you sliding into my dms, Like, Hey, can we talk
about this you.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Have created just touch the per perfect platform.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So tell me lex what was your initial reaction to
the visuals as well as audio.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So in my chest, my reactions were my knee still
got it. That's what I thought initially, like I could
drop down and get back up, and I didn't fall out,
nor did I die. So I was really proud of
myself out of that. And it was so free. There
was a nineties nostalgia. You know, I grew up in Atlanta,
(03:30):
I grew up in College Park, so here in Frank
Ski on the radio was normal and regular every morning,
and I was like, look at this homage, look at
this homage, and that was unexpected. And then all of
the commentary and it's all based on this over sexualization
of black women. And I was like, Okay, let's see
(03:51):
where this goes. But everybody only defaulted to this over
sexualization of the black women based on this Jezebel stereotape.
The Jezebel stereotpe is the idea that black women typically
our class figured, lighter skin and with some type of
non kinky hair. I think the mulatto type woman is
(04:15):
sexually overt and think Carmen Jones, right, so Carmen in
that movie would be the idea of a Jezebel. But
people forget the conversation where black women and their sexualization.
They're also sexualized as Mammy's so fat, dark skinned black
women who have kink gear hair, who are considered not
(04:37):
necessarily sexual, right because they're not the Jezebel, and yet
they reproduce and take care of children. And then there's
also the Sapphire, And the Sapphire is comes from Amos
and Andy right and is considered that kind of ballbuster
type woman who is like, oh, well, you can't handle me,
and attitudinal and think maybe like a Claire Huxtable type,
(05:01):
I will tell you when we will be together in
this way. And then there's the superwoman, So the Black superwoman,
this idea that black women can make a dollar out
of fifteen cents and take care of the communities and
their children and their partners and their job and they're
never exhausted or tired and always have this pleasant attitude
(05:22):
and considered asexual right because they're so strong and they
don't even need sex, and nobody's willing to like really
broach them because they don't need to have this physical
pleasure or satisfaction in their lives. We have all of
these other stereotypes and the only one that people wanted
to focus on was the Jezebel And I was like, huh,
(05:43):
well that's pigeonholing.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So why do you think that is? Do you think
that people aren't even aware of all of these other stereotypes.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think they're aware, but I don't think that their
sexuality is as amped up. And I think that a
black woman in charge of her own sexual pleasure is
scary for some folks. We have a lot of shame.
I was personally told as a child to call my
vagina a pocketbook because I am a Southerner, and you
(06:11):
keep your pocketbook closed and you keep it off the floor. Right,
those are the two things you learned. And I was like, huh,
that's interesting. Why would it ever be on the floor.
But the idea that if you have this own sexual pleasure,
you're some type of hope, you're some type of one
time over sexualized quote unquote, not wifey material. H Right,
(06:34):
And so I don't think the other ones get as
much play because they are somewhat more acceptable.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, because the sexuality, like you said, is not as
overt so it might be okay for those things to
be happening, but everybody doesn't know about it. Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And a lot of the commentary I saw doctor Lex
was around just this whole idea, like is this appropriate
especially right now right? So people it felt like we're
you know, offended or really shocked, especially given everything that's
(07:03):
happening in the world right now that we have this
overly sexual you know, like women reclaiming their sexuality or
claiming their sexuality in a way that feels like it
might not fit with like everything going on in the
world right now, right.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And my question is when better? When better to do
it while we are having movements towards black liberation and freedom,
right when we are having more time maybe to ourselves
at home to have these conversations, When better to talk
about what sexual liberation looks like. I've had clients who
(07:39):
didn't know what the different parts of their role are were.
They're calling their clitterists a third nipple, right, or scared
to say any of the words that are in WAW right,
especially the pee part. They can't say that word out
loud or they whisper it very low. Yeah, because of
the shame and that we've not supposed to talk about this,
(08:01):
and they suffer in their sex lives. They don't say
this isn't pleasurable, or this hurts or I really want
to try doing this a different way because they don't
think they're allowed to. They don't have that permission and
nobody ever gave them that permission. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You know, doctor Lex, you talked about sexual shame, right, Like,
I know a lot of your work sensors on that.
So I want to hear you talk more about like
how that shame does play out, because I don't think
that people necessarily recognize that what they're experiencing in their
reaction to this video or other things is shame.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Child Look, because the interweaves are talking and the level
of respectability politics, and I've triped this a couple of
times online at this point. Right, So, the idea that
black women are inherently sexual and they get over sexualized,
and it's true, there is the adultification of young black girls,
(08:56):
and there's an adultification of black males too. They're sexual
from puberty and they want sex, right, is a misnomer
and it is put on black bodies undoubtedly this conversation
and WOP are two different conversations. We're talking about being
able to enjoy pleasure, so vasal congestion, big fun words
(09:19):
because I like dropping big fun words. Here is when
the genitals are actually blood and it can happen from
an allergy, it happen from arousal. It can happen because
like you just need extra bloodslow in that region. For
some reason, canal starts to lubricate during arousal and excitement. Right,
(09:39):
and the vaginal canal can even change colors a lighter
pink to a deeper red or a crimson or even
a purple. Right because it is saying like I'm excited
for this, we can start to own that it is
okay for you to have pleasure and a society that's
been taught that you're not supposed to have pleasure, you're
supposed to sell sacrifice for goodness, and for black women specifically,
(10:03):
because some colonizers saw some bare breasted African women on
the coast and was like, oh, they must have sex
all the time because their breasts are always out, and
because they felt aroused by seeing this, by seeing this
natural state of being and the body in this way,
they posited that on those African women, and that is
(10:28):
the narrative that has been used to scapegoat abuse of
Black women and girls throughout time. And so to fight
back against that narrative, it's you have to be as
prim and proper as possible, because this is what world
already believes about you. And WOP takes that and throws
it out the window, saying like, why am I gonna
(10:49):
go I'm gonna decolonize my perspective? Why do I have
to believe what these people have said about me all
the time? Why do I have to be this way
to be respected? You know?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Brionna Holt had a beautiful quote. So she just wrote
a piece for Complex all about Wow, and she says
black women have little to no control of how society
views us with or without party. In Megan's collab, black
women shaking their butts and describing their sex life and
music is not what says black women back. It's the
people who justify harm toward us because of these actions.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
And that sounds like what you're talking.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
About exactly exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying, right, And
we see that in rape culture, right. Well, she was
wearing a short streat she was asking for it, or
she drank too much at a party, or she's had
sex with this many people, so it must have meant
that she wanted it. Now, when we think about again
the dultification of young black girls, it's oh, well, she's
(11:46):
developed enough, her body is ready, And I'm like, that's
not what this is. This is literally saying I can
enjoy my body. I feel empowered through the pleasure of
my body, and I know what pleases my body, and
there's power in that and starting to recognize that power
that is being owned, you.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Know, do I feel like that?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Is?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Another part of what I have been observing is people
talking about, well, how is this not a continuation of
the conversation of the adultification of black girls, Like what
kind of message is descending to our young black girls?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
M hm, Well, part of it is when you've grown,
you got grown folks business, right, grown.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Folks business at the facing level.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And so growing up, I had an interesting childhood and
a very liberal parent. So I learned about a lot
about sex and sexuality, which was amazing because it helped
me right So to Studies show that the more that
kids learn about sexuality so not just intercourse, not just penetration,
but whole sexuality body is being, intimacy, consent, talking about
(12:56):
expression of self, all of those things. The longer they
will actually wait, and the more likely they're going to
be to use protection when they decide to engage in
some type of intercourse or outer course, all that to
be said. Growing up, I got to attend hen parties
with my mom and my aunties who are really my neighbors,
but y'all know how that goes, right, So and their
(13:19):
kids are my cousins and or my nieces and nephews,
depending on our age. And I got to go to
hen parties where they would talk about, you know, being
with these guys when I was a teenager and ex
boyfriends and how some things did work and how somethings didn't.
And I'm like, Wow, there's a whole world in this.
There's a whole world in like this power of feminine
(13:40):
attitude and ownership that a lot of us don't get
to know about a lot of us is saying, oh,
you'll find that out when you're supposed to find that out.
But our mentors not aren't necessarily comfortable guiding us, and
so we have to learn through pain instead of learning
through wisdom. And I'd rather folks learn through wisdom to
(14:01):
learn cooking.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So I wonder if you can offer some strategies to
people about how that can happen, right, because I think
the messaging that young women often get is just keep
your legs closed, right, Like people will figure that out,
like you said, when you're older. But who am I
going to figure it out from if like nobody's talking
to me about it? So what kinds of things do
you think people can do to impart this wisdom?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Right? So I can give an example for my own life.
So I have trolling kids. I call them hayton A babies.
Those are my habs. And my oldest hab is a
volva owner and said it's okay that I call her
by she or he pronounced not say. And one day
was sitting on my lap and tends to be news
(14:46):
because she's three and that's what life is right now.
So sit on my lot and started like touching her
volva and I was like, are you touching your volva?
And she says, yeah, it's nice. I'm like, it is nice,
and and we didn't talk about consent of you touching
your volvo while you were on me. I'm a little
bit uncomfortable, and I'd really like for you to do
(15:07):
that in your own private space when you're by yourself,
like your room, or if you want to go to
the bathroom and do that, that's absolutely fine. And she
was like, well, I kind of want to watch the
Magic School Bus. I was like, okay, we can continue
watching the Magic School Bus. And then she was like, well,
let me go wash my hands again. And I was like,
thank you for doing that, and went off and washed
(15:28):
her hands again and came back and sat on my
lap and didn't touch your vulva anymore. Right, all of
that says, yes, it's nice to touch your vova. It
is absolutely okay to touch your vova. It is not
okay to touch your volva while you were on me. Right,
this is not a private place to do. So please
go do that in a private place, or you can
stop and do it later. But we're not shaming, right,
(15:49):
And some people are like, well, my kid's not three,
my kid is sixteen and trying to be out here
in these streets during COVID and et cetera, et cetera.
It's time to talk to them. About one. If they're
out in me s, if they are doing things that
were they're sexually active, is it pleasurable for them? Have
you taught your child how to advocate for their own
pleasure and what that looks like. I've never met a
(16:10):
parent yet who says I want my kids to have
a crappy sex life. I've not yet met that parent. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Most parents are just like, I don't want them to
have a sex life period.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Right, And that's absolutely okay and absolutely unrealistic. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
If they choose that, then fine, but not just because you.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Want it exactly exactly right. And even folks who identify
as asexual might have some type of romantic or physically
pleasurable intercourse or sexual play. So it's saying, hey, have
you checked in with your body and to see what
feels nice? Right? How do you tell somebody no, you
don't want to do something, or yes, you do want
(16:50):
to do something. We do leave that part out. We
teach people how to say no all the time, we
don't really teach them how to say yes around their
physical empowerment and enjoyment, especially when they're adolescents.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I think this goes back to your earlier statement. Though,
and even our first conversation with you here on the
podcast about sexual shame, right, because I don't know that
as a parent you can have that conversation with your
kids if you have not done some of the work
of like releasing your own sexual shame.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Agreed. Agreed, well, and I will contend that some parents
that I've seen say, I just don't want to do
what my parents did to me. Right. Yeah, so you
woke up and you just found a book on your
bookshelf and it was like, okay, what is this about?
Or they hated you a book was like come to
me if you have any questions. You were like, I'm
(17:37):
not coming to talk to you. This is strange because
they were also really uncomfortable. So I've seen parents say
like I want to do differently for my child and
figuring out what that looks like. And that also might
be saying we have an askeable adult, right, Like I'm
a t t to my lying sister's kids, right. So
those are my line nieces and my line nephews. And
(17:58):
so I've had my nieces come to me and be like, Hey,
this is what's going on. I need some help, t Lex.
What do we do and I am, and I'm like, hey,
your kid wants to have a conversation with me. Is
this okay with you? So I check in with consent,
not necessarily about the topic, but saying can I be
that askable person and are you comfortable with that? And
(18:19):
they're like yes, I'm okay. And I tell the same
thing to the team, like, hey, I'm gonna talk to
your mom to make sure it's okay you talk to me,
and then we can put some boundaries around it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I love the concept of an askable adult and matter
as that we trust yeah, because it feels like okay,
even if maybe I haven't done my own work to
be comfortable with this conversation, if there is an auntie
or somebody who they can have this conversation within, the
conversation still happens exactly exactly. I've not yet met a
parent that was like, if I feel safe with this
(18:50):
adult to help me parents these kids, I'm be like nah, right.
It's different if it's some random stranger that you don't
know or who you're just getting to know. But if
it's somebody you're super close and you trust their opinion
and you all have like values and you're like, Okay,
this person's knowledgeable about this.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
I trust them. I want my kid to have help.
I want my kid to have support. Then we're building
those communities, and so making sure you have somebody who
is sex positive in your community can be integral. So
when these kids see why, because it's gonna happen, right
and the internet is everywhere. Kids are way more savvy
and deleting cookies nowadays than we were we were, and
(19:26):
deleting browser history, and so they're gonna see it and
they'll be like, I noticed you were interested in this,
What were you interested in?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So making it a conversation as again opposed to shaming
mm hmm, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And say like, I'm not really comfortable with you consuming
this type of adult content, so we can we talk
about what was interesting and maybe find like the information
you were looking for.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, And it also feels it also feels really interesting
that people are reacting to this as if this is
the first time we have seen women clean their sexuality
in a music video or in lyrics, right, Like, this
comes from a long history of other female rappers and
women in music who have done similar kinds of things.
So why do you think the reaction has been so strong.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Well so, I think this is the first time it's
been so in your face. All right, I will tell
you I got my life from that fountain.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
In the entry of the video, the fountain was rather
cool as a whole former breastfeeding mom like, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Thank you, doctor Joy. I told my other psychologist friends.
We were fighting. Wait, we scrapping because I hadn't seen it,
and they had started conversations, and you know, I have
little ones. I don't always get a chance to look
at things up to date. I was like, let me
go look at this video. And I saw that fountain,
and I was like, is that from their numbers? It is?
And none of them saw the breastfeeding or the nursing
(20:50):
chesticles that I saw. They were like, I saw the hair,
and I saw the pose, and I thought about little Kim,
and I was like, but you ain't see this nursing
parent who oftentimes feels touched out or maybe even unwanted
or uncertain about their bodies. And it's a celebration of yes,
you can bust the wide open and still be a
nurse and parent and take advantage of those full and
(21:11):
gorged boobs while they're sitting up right and enjoy some
of that sexual play too. So yes, thank you doctor
Joy for confirming that for me. Like the Obi won,
I was like, all right, yeah, I got yall, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, it definitely has felt like the backlash has felt different.
And I'm trying to remember, like the last video we
had that might have given us the same kind of reaction.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I don't was it well, I don't remember. I'm not
the person for music an art. I remember Tweet, and
I remember that I was not old enough to be
singing about Tweet when my neck in my back was out. Yeah.
But I'm just remembering, you know, growing up seeing Freaknick
and hearing Trina and here in low Cam and Foxy
Brown and seeing those things right, and seeing those same
(22:14):
things and hearing the same terms, and people have sung
about sex.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
This is the beginning of time, right, Like our mothers
and grandmothers, like they all had similar content in terms
of lyric. Now, it may not have been as descriptive
or like as pointed, but everybody has been singing about
sex for a very long time, for.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
A very long time, right, And that's the other part
of that it is liberating to be like I can
just say this out loud. And that's part of our
sex therapy model. Right. The first step in our sex
therapy model is permission giving. Right, it's saying I give
you permission to talk about these things. I give you
permission to say them out loud. I typically take that
a step further and use it also for consent, like
(22:54):
do you have me permission to talk about this with you,
and ensuring that that conversation is safe for everybody in
a room, and also giving people permission to pass, like
if it's too uncomfortable, we don't have to talk about it.
But we don't see black women rappers get held up
in the same light when we see black mail rappers
(23:14):
talking about the same thing. Right, Yeah, the black male
rappers have talked about sex and how many people they
want to run through, and how they like their sex,
and how they want a sex kitten and a video
fixing and how they hit it from behind, et cetera,
et cetera, and don't get the same scrutiny. They don't
get the same scrutiny. And yet when a woman talks
(23:35):
about her own body part and how it functions, she's
now all of a sudden, the hue and uncouth.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Right, the discrepancy feels very jarring to me. Right, Like
when male rappers release these same kinds of songs, there
is very little to know criticism of these kinds of things,
but it feels like people really are reacting to the
fact that these women have their agency to talk about
what brings them pleasure in that it's okay for us
(24:04):
to talk about these things as women because.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
We don't hear about the black book, which is a
male sexual stereotype for black men, right, that he always
wants sex, that his appetite is insatiable, that he has
a super large, superhuman penis and is able to just
have as much sex as he wants for as long
as he wants, right, and even saying those things out loud,
quote unquote, They're not supposed to be horrible for men, right.
(24:28):
Men are supposed to function like that. When we think
about toxic masculinity, anything outside of that narrative is supposed
to be non masculine. And it's that embracing of this
hyper masculinity and this toxic masculinity that I also think
reflects back on like wait, what you're trying to be
in power sexually. Nah. Now I'm not cool with that
(24:49):
because now it feels threatening. So it's I want a
sex kitten, and I think I put this in a meme.
I want a sex kitten. I want somebody who's going
to do sex tricks. And women are like, wow, I'm
putting on you. And then dudes are like, nah, not
like that.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
You will help.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
House? Right?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
How good? How does it come together? I do want
to hear more about that than your thoughts about that,
Like if people are just not recognizing how contradictory those
messages are, right, like that, it's okay for you to
do all these things if I say that you do them,
or if I encourage you to do them, but if
you initiate it, then it's a problem.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
And I think that comes from that power piece, right,
it's I have power over you, or I have influence
over you. I can own part of this narrative. Well,
I'm the one who made her that way, right, t
Pain says, Now she liked Pain right because he taught
her how to do it. And so there's a powers
there that adds to that ego. But it's not necessarily
(25:48):
theirs to own. It's the own individual persons to own.
And I think we get that in sexuality. In my
own study, black women having sex, and this is about
but most of the black women in that study believed
that during sex there was a power exchange. There's an
(26:08):
exchange of power during that intimacy. And this is that
two hundred and fifty women just about. So there was
an exchange of power that happened during this sexual exchange
and intercourse. And they believe that. And so if they
believe that, right, and they're with another person who believes that,
then it's yeah, now I have some type of power.
(26:30):
Now I'm part of your narrative. Now I'm part of
your story and you are because of me.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So we know that when women become more liberated, that
leads to liberation for everybody. So it does feel like
people are working against their best interest in working against
women being more sexually liberated. Yes, that sexual liberation of
saying I'm owning my body, I'm owning my pleasure and
I am wet for this, and you'd be like, nah,
(26:58):
I don't want that. That may sounds so ridiculous, It
sounds so ridiculous, But how do you think that then
maybe does help men to even feel more comfortable with
their own liberation.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I think it also gives remember that permission piece I
was talking about. It gives them permission too to say
I don't have the mind read do you like this?
Do you like that? I'm gonna try this right, and
it's taxing. And one thing, if you're a woman who
was sleeping with men, the penis doesn't like pressure. It
(27:30):
does not like pressure. It's something that just like it
was really hard and stress really do affect penile performance.
So tell me what you like, show me what you like,
and puzzle typically begets arousal. So the sounds, a noise,
(27:53):
the the what was the song? The macaroni and cheet
sound right, Those things say I'm ready for you and
want you can be such a turn on that it
could be get more arousal and saying like, oh, I
know exactly how to please this person. I know exactly
(28:14):
what this vaginal canal wants. I know exactly what this
cluitterist wants. I know exactly what whatever these nipples, these toes,
this elbow, the back of the neck, whatever it is,
I know what it wants. And that helps my own
sexual self esteem, and so you can give that gift
through your own self exploration to your lover. You can
(28:36):
give that gift of enhancing their sexual self esteem because
they listen to exactly what you needed, and we're able
to help you facilitate pleasure.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So where do you think we can start to kind
of break down on some of that doctor lex like
how can we help people to kind of get out
of that contradiction?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
So I think one is starting with some of these conversations, right,
So listening to this podcast, listening to sex poseive folks,
hearing out all sorts of perspectives, right, because again we
live in America, so most of our perspectives come from America.
But looking outside of ourselves. I have a book called
Like the African Reader about sexuality from various parts of
(29:17):
Africa that helped me like, oh look, other people have
sung and talked about hymen's and vagina's. Look at that
and there's power in that. So starting to explore some
of our understanding. The other one, Pleasure Activism is the
great book. And then The Body Is Not an Apology
is a great book. Yeah, because we do have to externalize,
(29:40):
like hey, this is how you've been taught to see yourself.
What do you actually believe about yourself and the skin
that you're in and the body that you have that's
outside of everybody else's opinions and constraints. Then you start
to explore your pleasure. Do you actually like when your
lover snacks your butt like that? Or is it fun
(30:00):
for them? Do you want to be I don't know, choked,
or do you want your toe sucked? Or do you
want the back of your knee licked at the right place,
I don't know, whatever it is, explore for yourself what
really feels good for you, and then being able to
voice some of that which has statistically been found better
to happen. And I will say periment apostle and postman
(30:21):
aposal women. So there's doctor joy, a level of cares
that you no longer give. Right after a certain point,
you're able to verbalize like I don't have confidence, I
don't like that, do it this way. And there's some
relief in also not being fearful of like getting pregnant
(30:42):
things like that. But there is a level that comes
with comfortability with your body at that point. For a
lot of women identify folks before that, so before your
mid to late forties. Folks, Babe, I really don't like that.
Can we try it a different way? Or it really
turns tends me on when I'm really into If please
(31:04):
keep doing that, it feels so good, right, So, having
some of that scripted language to encourage and also center
your own pleasure during this time. It is not your
lover's job to give you pleasure. It's your job to
help your lover facilitate pleasure for yourself and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
You know, doctor Lex, listening to you talk about that
study that talks about like postmitalpausal, it feels like a
part of what WAB does is give people language for
like censoring their own pleasure that you can start asking
for that even earlier in your life.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Please please ask for that even earlier in your life.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
It can be celebratory too, right right, not something that's
just so hidden in so away. And when we're talking
about wo, I also want to just plug that it
doesn't matter how you get a walk, right, So, if
it is a natural occurring lubrication, if it is an
added lubrication that is water based or silicon based, you do
not use silicon based if you were going to use
a silicon toy, right, enjoy that. People who are nursing,
(32:16):
you need to automatically add a lubricant. It does not
make you any less than if you're using a lubricant.
It just makes everything feel better. And I can say
I had a ooh over a seventy five year old
client who said that they had great lubrication and yet
they still had some burning when there was some digital penetration.
(32:38):
And I was like, that means there's not a lot
of lubrication. You need more about that, and she was
like oh. And so I sent them some lubricant samples
and I got a call back from the partner and
from the client and they were like, hey, can we
buy more of this where it from? And I was like,
I'm happy to to this website to get more of it. Right.
(33:03):
So it's that permission to start off younger and for
my own kids. But both of my kids are Volva owners,
and I want them to have pleasure with their bodies
again learning through wisdom and not through pain. So I
want to make sure like, hey, you know what, if
it doesn't feel good, you say stop or I want
you to be careful with your own body. So this
is why you wash your hands before you touch your
(33:23):
vovas and we don't stick to like random things in
our volvas. Right, all of this type of stuff are
important to talk about what feels good in our bodies,
and this pleasure doesn't necessarily always have to be sexual either,
as sexual Aswap is right, there's also pleasure from that empowerment.
I can be on top and I can own this
and say I'm gonna say my own name right because
(33:45):
i own this, and I'm a spell it for you
because I'm that good, and that can be empowering and
uplifting as well.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, you know, the other thing that I think, you
know it's important to think about in terms of this conversation,
doctor Lex, is that it feels like like women feeling
empowered about their sexuality doesn't really just stop like in
the bedroom, because it feels like there is this part
of like specifically with Meg, right. You know, we know
(34:13):
that she was recently shot and there was of course
again conversation about like how people were not taking it
seriously and like all the jokes and memes about it,
and it feels like a part of why it was
not taken this seriously is because she is so sexy, right,
so she is not seen as this like helpless woman,
you know, that kind of thing, and so it feels
(34:33):
like there is like a convulsion of those worlds and
that her sexuality has also made her view people as
somebody that it was okay to like joke about her
being harmed.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Mm hmmm mm hmmm. So those are those respectability politics
coming in again. Right, You're not worthy of decent human
empathy from somebody harming you, right, So this was violent, yes, right,
And she's lucky she survived because if it would have
been anywhere else in her body, or if she would
have been majorly injured, then everybody would be like, oh
(35:06):
my gosh, rip right and playing albums and dedication songs.
And we have to realize that happens to real folks
in everyday life all the time, all the time. And
the specifically I'll definitely say specifically for black trans women too.
They are killed for existing because it challenges this power
(35:29):
dynamic that men find it threatening. So men find their
attraction threatening. And it's similar here saying that oh, you're
too sexy or you're too much and that threatens this
idea of my masculinity because now I'm not the sexually
dominant one. That's really problematic and really scary that people
would be like, oh, this is so funny. And I
(35:50):
saw something about that, like then I read about it
the meme from Boys in the Hood or Beyonce I
got bit in the face by another woman and everybody
want to be an oppera mm hmm, And I was like,
there is no difference, Like a human is a human, right,
and she still still deserves the same respect whether she's
busting it open or not. You know.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
The other thing that I thought was really cool about
the video was that they brought other women in, right,
So it also felt like this like celebration, like this
sisterhood of sexuality, right, like that we are not only
going to talk about our own, but we're gonna also
invite other people to talk about theirs or at least
share a piece of theirs.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Again, and there's no shame in our game. And we're
not the only ones. Look at all of us. All
of us have some form of sexiness that's our own
that we can all own. And I think that was
so empowering. It reminded me of what was that song,
Ladies Night.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Ladies Night, Yah, the cameos.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
For the mansion. Now, I have no idea what my
roomor looked like, but it can't be that cheetah room.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
But it's funny that one, right, And so I was like,
this is so cool.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Every had their own space, and I think that was
metaphor you all have your own space be create exactly
who you want to be sexual mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
And then one person's sexuality doesn't have to like compromise
or be in competition with.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yours exactly because it's abundance. Yeah, we're coming from a
Her level of sexy doesn't take away from your level
of sexy, right right, right? What she does? And I
think we've been taught that, right. What's that saying? Anything
you won't do another woman will yes to hang on
to some trifling person? Just why why do you want
(37:35):
him if he wants her sex? Right, or maybe I'm
open to it, and like he can have her sex
and he can have my sex, or she can go
have his sex. Like whatever, we're not from we're not
from scarcity, We're from abundance. This person isn't a threat
to you. And if you all decide like these are
your boundaries that you're not with other people, maybe you
can learn something new that you might enjoy, or you
(37:58):
all can figure that out together. But whatever one person
does doesn't take away from your own because everybody has
their own lane.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, So, doctor Alex, I knew that you were going
to be up on this video because this is kind
of in line with you know, what you do and
how you work with clients, right, And I think that
that's an important part of the conversation too. It's just
as therapist, how like this kind of information can be
helpful with our clients. So I know you have already
started using this in your clinical work, right I have.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I have. I have a client who is just so
empowered and who like, listen to Foxy Brown and look
Cam and loved it and then had never seen the
video brings back nostyle that with Holly Berry and the
fact that apps where we're not necessarily about these respectability
(38:50):
politics and adopting all of them. It was We're going
to be who we are and that's good enough for
whatever socioeconomic class we're in and whatever world we're in.
And I was like, you gotta go watch Baps talking
about some self acceptance and that was her homework. I
was like, go watch Baps. You love this video. I
need you to have some context. Go watch bas and
(39:11):
Baps is about these two black chicks from the hood.
All they wanted to do was like one wanted to
be a dancer and a heavy d video and that
was her life goal. And they left the men that
they were with for not feeling accepted and encouraged and
a whole bunch of other stuff. If you haven't gotten
to see Bats, go watch Baps, y'all right for this week.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I don't know, it's probably on like a hood or
Netflix something.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
I would wow, it's probably on YouTube at the page
and it's probably at this point. But yeah, so just
learning more and again it's all about that self acceptance.
I think that really is key of giving yourself permission
to exist, to breathe without the sphere of this biblical Jezebel,
(39:54):
without this fear of being rejected based on your sexuality.
Because if a person rejects you, then that's not the
person for you. It's not the person you're meant to
be with. You know.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Something else that has really heartened me just kind of
following like the Twitter threads is that it feels like
so both Halle Berry and Viola Davis were like photo
shopped into different parts of the video, and they both
have like retweeted.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
They're like photo shops stop it. I love it, which
feels really empowering to me. I think in that it
is you know, like this older generation of women kind
of like saying like, yes, we.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Like co sign right, so we are also rejecting these
respectability politics that you know, like we can't also be sexy.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yes, exactly, and especially for Viola Davis right, yes, being
a darker skinned and with kinky hair, and like Viola
Davis's arms are amazing and a muscular build, right, yes, yes,
Sam yup, I could definitely be in this video and
owning not I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yes, it was very very I really appreciated her sharing
her you know, like nonverbal co signing so to speak
with the video. Yeah, so, doctor Lex, tell people where
they can find you. I know you were recently here,
but maybe people miss your last episode. We will of
course include both of your previous appearances in the show notes,
(41:19):
but tell people where they can find you.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
You can find me at Lex. That's Ledublex sex sex
dotdoc dot com and you can subscribe to my website
for all of the following updates. You can check out
the new upcoming Conflict Resolution Couples course I have for
the spark a virtual brunch and you'll get some one
on one time with me about ninety minutes wor to
(41:44):
talk about resolving conflict, showing up how you really are.
I know we're all trying to be together as much
as we can in the most positive ways right now,
and that's what that course really does. And then I'm
lexex doc across all social media platforms, so that's Facebook, Instagram.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And Twitter perfect and we'll add that to the show
notes as well. Thank you so much, Lex.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
A huge thank you to doctor Lex Brown James for
joining us again for this episode, so learn more about
her and her work. Be sure to visit the show
notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three
twenty five, and don't forget to visit Sexpositive September dot
com for all of the other incredible conversations we're having
this month. If you're looking for a therapists in your area,
(42:34):
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
com slash directory and if you want to continue digging
into this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas,
(42:58):
Alise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care. What's The reviews for Sisterhood
(43:18):
Heels are rolling in and I simply cannot stop smiling
at the hot girl books on Instagram shared finish reading
this warm hug of a book last night and while
it made me once a hug my sister friend so bad,
Sisterhood Heels is a beautiful guide on how we as
black women can use our community and friends to aid
in our healing process. Thank you so much for the
(43:41):
beautiful review. Have you grabbed your copy yet? Get one
for yourself and a friend at Sisterhoodheels dot com.
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