November 22, 2023 • 33 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
In passing, you’ve likely heard the phrase, “the eyes are the windows to the soul.” But did you know that there is an emerging body-based modality that works to process client trauma through movement in the eyes? It’s called ‘Brainspotting,’ and today’s guest is here to share all about it. Nicole Bryant is a licensed Mental Health clinician practicing in North Carolina who specializes in neuro-psychotherapy and is currently a Certified Brainspotting Practitioner.
In our conversation today, we discuss the science behind Brainspotting, how Brainspotting can serve as an alternative for clients dissatisfied with talk therapy, and why she believes communities of color could benefit most from this treatment.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three thirty four of the
Therapy Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
a word from our sponsors introducing the new Therapy for
Black Girl's holiday gift collection. Our new ensemble of drinkwaar totes, journals,
and sweatshirts were designed with coziness and utility in mind,
(01:20):
while offering a gentle reminder that we are precious cargo
and should be handled with care. Happy holidays, y'all, remember
to take good care and give good gifts. In passing,
you've likely heard the phrase the eyes are the windows
(01:42):
to the soul. But did you know that there is
an emerging body based modality that works to process client
trauma through movement in the eyes. It's called brain spotting,
and today's guest is here to share all about it.
Nicole Bryant is a licensed mental health clinician practicing in
North Carolina. Nicole specializes in neural psychotherapy and is currently
(02:04):
a certified brain spotting practitioner. In our conversation, we discussed
the science behind brain spotting, how brain spotting can serve
as an alternative for clients to dissatisfy with talk therapy,
and why she believes communities of color could benefit most
from this treatment. If something resonates with you while enjoying
our conversation, please share it with us on social media
(02:26):
using the hashtag TBG in session or join us over
in the sister circle To talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Nicole, Thank you for having me very excited.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
To chat with you.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So you specialize in neural psychotherapy and you're a certified
brain spotting practitioner. Can you tell us a little bit
about what both of those things are.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Wow, So certify brain spotting practitioner. I'm certified in the
practice of brain spotting. Brain Spotting is a psychological little
neurological technique that has psychological benefits.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
The founder, doctor David Grant. He came upon.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Brain spotting almost twenty years ago, so we're talking about
a fairly new treatment modality. He is certified in EMDR
and he founded his practice in New York. When he
was using EMDR with a patient. This particular patient was
a figure skater, so she was an athlete and she
was having difficulty meeting this particular technique as it relates
(03:36):
to ice skating. She was coming up and then coming
back down and falling, and she's meeting with doctor Graham
and she's starting to discuss just what's taking place with
her as an athlete as far as what's taking place
with this technique. And he was doing EMDR with her
and he found while doing a particular technique during EMDR
eye reflexes, he found that her eye began to flicker
(04:01):
when he got to a particular spot, and something in
him said, just stop. MDR is very protocol driven. There's
a way to go about MDR. With this particular reflex
that he was noticing with her eye, he stopped with
the pointer instead of continuing with the MDR technique, and
this overflow of emotion took place. She started crying profusely.
(04:23):
She started talking about her childhood. She started talking about
the effects of the divorce and how mom blamed her
for the divorce, everything that had basically been held in
her for this particular time. And come to find out,
she basically had this fear of rejection and fear of
messing up, fear of not being a followed through. This
was one session she went back to the ice skating
(04:44):
and she was able to nail the particular technique that
she had all this trouble, all these weeks, all these
months of being able to nail.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Wow, So I wonder what kinds of questions was he
asking her related to the way her eye was flirting.
Made him think something's going on there, like how did
he get to this rejection story?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Doctor Graham talks about in brain spotting the uncertainty principle.
Brain spotting has a lot to do with a felt sense.
So his attunement and how attuned he was in the
therapeutic relationship as well as that particular session, his attunement
with her, holding space, with her being present with her
(05:27):
without a neurological background, medical degree background, different things that
nature to basically be able to pinpoint, Okay, this is
what's taking place with her eye. He decided to just
stop talking. He decided to just stop as far as
the particular technique that he was going to do with
EMDR and based off of his felt sense, he just
(05:47):
allowed her to process and she began to process on
her own from a neurobiological level, was processing, crying, talking.
I don't know why, but I just thought of this
memory just came up and I'm thinking of such as such,
and she begins to process based off of that and
from their brain spotting, what was born.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It was almost like a free association thing like he
just stopped the protocol and gave her a space to
kind of talk.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Through what was happening. Absolutely got it.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, so he unlike this for her, and then what
does this look like then in terms of him creating
brain spotting?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
What does he do in brain spotting?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
He creates brain spotting? He starts learning a little bit
more neurobiologically, what's taking place. He starts getting with other
particular scientists and neurobiologists and neuroscientists, and he learns even
more in regards to EMDR and he's getting with different
people and they're letting him know what is taking place
neurobiology and what is taking place from a neurological standpoint
(06:49):
in different things that nature, and he starts to develop
a little bit more and a little bit more and
a little.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Bit more in regards to brain spotting.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
So me particularly in order to become certified in brain spotting,
you have to go through two phases of treatment, Phase one,
in phase two, and in phase one, we're learning the
basic techniques such as why access access, We're learning as
far as inside window, outside window resourcing and different things
that nature, and we evolve a little bit more in
(07:20):
phase two. And then from phase two, I'm meeting with
a consultant and I'm basically getting some supervision in regards
to my.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Techniques and different things that nature.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And after I complete a certain amount of hours and
a certain amount of supervision consultation hours, I go before
the Brain Spotting Institute and I'm awarded certification.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And you also mentioned having specialization in neuropsychotherapy, So what
is that.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So I'm a lover of all things knowledge and learning
a little bit more and my first training session you'll say,
with brain spotting and learning a little bit more about it.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
For me, it was wanting to take.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
It a little bit further and learn from a neurological
neuroscience level what is taking place within the brain and
sensations and all of that good stuff. And my facilitator
as a related to brain spoting is explaining it to
us that there's different schools that you'll be able to
learn a little bit more as it relates to neuroscience
getting the fundamentals. So Harvard University offers fundamentals and neuroscience
(08:24):
program and I enroll and I'm completing the different series
and I've completed completely and I get the certification as
it relates to fundamentals. So now being able to take
this background knowledge of neuroscience and perception and sensation in
regards to the brain and tying that to what I
know now with certified brain spotting practitioner, I've basically developed
(08:48):
my practice as far as being able to from a
psycho physiological level, how can I help the person sitting
in front of me who tends to be black and
brown and tends to be a woman. What complex trauma?
Not just PTSD, but complex PTSD. Bringing in body awareness,
helping her understand what's taking place as to why you're
(09:10):
possibly feeling like this from a neurological level, and then
from there giving her the space as far as being
able to process whatever she needs to process in the
time that she is with me.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
God is so the neuropsychotherapy piece is really much more
sharing with clients. Okay, what's happening in your body when
maybe you're having a panic attack, or when you talk
about this experience with your mom, Here's what's.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Happening in your brain?
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Got it? Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Okay, So you mentioned that brain spotting started as a
spin off basically from EMDR. He was practicing EMDR. So
how is it different? In what ways are they maybe similar?
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I have no training MDR. From what I know what
brain spotting again goes back to the uncertainty principle. MDR
is more protocol driven as far as what they're learning
from MDR, being certified in MDR protocol, how to go
about the different techniques. Brain spotty not as much. You're
allowing the client really to guide you as to really
(10:07):
what is taking place. So let's say inside window or
even outside window, I'm watching them from a therapist standpoint,
when I'm observing what I may be seeing in their
eyes other different type of reflexes they may on. This
is the reflex that I'm seeing seeing based off of
what I'm doing with the pointer. Just focus right there
(10:28):
and what the felt says? Can you let me know
what's taking place before we're starting the technique. On a
scale of zero to ten, what are you feeling right
now in your body? Someone might say, I'm coming in
with a little bit more anxiety. I've just felt this panic.
Where do you feel that from head to toe? Where
would you pinpoint that? And then once they let me
know when they pinpoint that on a scale of zero
(10:49):
to ten, what would you rate that? Zero being nothing,
ten being what it is? Okay, well, we're gonna look
for maybe if there's any type of activation, and I'm
going to bring this point, but I'm going to take
it three spots across your visual field. The only thing
you need to do is just focus on the pointer.
That's all I need to do. Just keep your eyes
on the pointer, and then based off of what I'm
(11:11):
seeing when them do is they're looking at the pointer,
I may be able to give them some feedback us too.
I just notice a lot of blinking right now as
you're looking at that particular spot.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I just noticed you took a yawn. I did.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, you just took a big yawn, which could be
a reflex. I'm noticing something taking place with your head
or your neck. Just focus there for a bit. Do
you feel a bit of an activation? You say you
were about a six when we started. What are you
feeling now? I'm at a ten. I don't know why.
I'm just feeling really really anxious. I'm getting really really okay, Okay, well,
just focus there on the corner and just let me
(11:42):
know what you're noticing about that ten. And then a
lot of times, if they haven't had experience with brain spotting,
they're looking at the porner. Then they're looking back at
me because they're wondering why I'm not talking. So a
lot of times I'll let them know before brain spotting.
Talk therapy versus brain spotting is a bit different. Don't
do a lot of talking. I'm allowing you to process
(12:04):
anything that comes up for you, it doesn't have to
make sense. Feel free to process it.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Anything.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
It could be a thought, it could be a feeling
and emotion, it could be a memory, maybe a song
just popped up. Anything that comes up to you, feel
free to process. And then something comes up and they
start processing. I don't know why. I just thought of
my dad, tell me about that, and they're starting to
process X, Y and Z and a.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Lot of times what they do.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Going back to the neural psychotherapy, I'm explaining to them
as it relates to the brain, and I'll let them know.
Just take your fist and inside right here is the
middle part and outside here is the outer part of
the brain, and we have what's called the prefuntal cortext our.
Cerebral cortext has taken place outside here and inside here
probably the middle part mid part brain. Well outside here
(12:53):
we do a lot of talking, like in talk therapy
or the only mammals that have.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
A prefuntal cortex.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
That's why we talk, and mammal stay in the fight
and flight and do other different type of things to
communicate what they need. Well, what we're doing with brain spotting,
we're bypassing the cerebral cortex, and we're going straight into
the mid part here where emotions are stored. Every emotion
that you've had since birth, whether you remembered or not,
is stored there in our limbic system which houses our emotions.
(13:20):
And what we're doing right now is going straight into
the subcortical with the use of your eyes, and you're
starting to process, and then a memory or something just
popped up for you. Because keep in mind, in your
o limbic system, where our emotions are stored, it's something
called our hippocampus. And the way you can think about
the hippocampus is like a file cabinet, and all of
us have a file cabinet in our desk at our
(13:42):
home office XYZ where we have files where we file them.
We pull it out when we need to get that file,
and then when we're done, we place it back. Well,
sometimes trauma impairs that. It impairs the ability to be
able to file away the memory because the event was
so traumatic, stressful, and impaired the brain's natural ability to
(14:03):
be able to tuck it away, file it away and
pull it out when I need to. In other words,
I have control trauma impairs that because we know what
the Olympics system. There's no sense of time, there's no
sense of language. So whether it happened five years ago
or whether it happened fifty years ago, it's replaying and
it's coming up for us in this traumatic experience.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
And it worked. It did.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You're sitting in front of me as a human being.
You have a fight and a flight system that's going
to help keep you surviving, that's going to help keep
you here.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
It worked.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
And the brain, almost like a computer, is still trying
to do the different downloads and uploads and all that
good stuff that it does, and it's having difficulty doing that,
so it goes into these fits of rages, or it
has hyper arousal, or it gets angry. It's pacing nightmares
flashbacks as a way to try to process the files
(14:59):
that are in the file cabinet, but instead of all
over the desk, and what we're going to try and
do with the processing that you're doing right now is
put those papers away back into the hippocampus where they're
supposed to be, and you take them out when you
want to, not when someone upsets you, when you're.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Triggered more from our conversation after the break, So I
feel like you've already given us a little bit of like, Okay,
what's happening in these sessions?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
But can you set the stage for us?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So let's say somebody calls your office, they maybe found
your website or something, they say, I want to try
brain spotting. Can you set the stage for us for
what happens in your first session? Would do subsequent sessions
look like? How long does it take? Can you kind
of walk us through that process?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Each client is different and almost always already out with
the consultation first, deciding what's in the best interests of
them as well as myself as it relates to the therapeutic relationship.
And then after we make the decision to go ahead
and decide to move forward, we schedule the first session,
and I'm letting them know in the first session and
the intake, we're probably not going to get into brain
spotting too quickly, wanting to get to know you a
(16:19):
little bit more, wanting to do a little bit more
psycho education. I do a lot of psycho education first
leading into the brain spotting session.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Some of my clients have heard of brain.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Spotting, some of them haven't, and because it is a
different technique in comparison to quote unquote talk therapy. I'm
explaining to them about fighting flight. Some of them have
heard of it, some of them haven't, explaining to them
about what the nervous system is looking like under fight
and flight, and different things of that nature. Some homework assignments,
all of that good stuff. And then maybe about the
fourth fifth session in they're ready. They're talking a little
(16:51):
bit more, building a little bit more rapport, getting to
know me a little bit more.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
And what we'll do first is we'll start out with
some music.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
So with brain spot David Grant he invented biolateral music,
so biobing two lateral music that they're putting in the
headphones earphones, and it's too because it's going in both sides.
As far as the hemispheres of the brain, we know
that the audio sensation aids as it relates to a
feeling of a neutralness, then maybe start to feel calm.
(17:21):
They don't have to be calm in order to do
brain spotting, but they're going to start to feel a
bit of a neutral feeling or relaxed feeling. I'll just
remind them of where they are. Just remember that you're
sitting down. You may start to feel a little bit
more relaxed. And then I'm asking them what are you feeling?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
So is the music a particular kind of music? Is
it like standardized music that you play for every first
session or just some music you pick.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So the biolateral music has like the beach wavy sound,
and then there's drums, and then there's something else that's
being played. And what I'll tell them is just press play.
They'll get the link and I say, just press play anything.
I can listen to anything, anything, Just press play. Just
put it at a comfortable level where you can hear
it and me so if you need to adjust it,
that's fine because I just want you to baby to
(18:06):
hear me just in case I have any questions, and
just listen to the music as we focus.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
On the pointer.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Oh so the music is playing as you are doing
the pointing. Absolutely, And so what happens like after the
session and like how do you maybe bring them out
of this and you know, allow them to kind of
move on with the rest of their day.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Again, it goes back to David Grant the uncertainty principle,
and he talks about the brain being designed to do
exactly what it needs to do. The brain knows what
it needs to do. The brain is healing as we're
doing these particular brain spotting techniques, and it's going to
continue to heal. And I'll let them know that your
brain knows exactly what it needs to do. As far
(18:47):
as any particular side effects or anything like that, No,
just allow the brain to take place. Now, this is
a body based modality. So you may feel so certain
type of things within your body.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
You may not. You may have dreams, you may not.
You may have crying spells, you may not.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
You may be just aokay and back and sitting in
front of me the next week and I don't know
that pointer thing.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I feel better.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I don't know why, but I'm just feeling a little
bit more relieved from feeling a little bit more.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Can we try that again?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Sure, and we go back into as far as that
particular technique. O. They're saying, I feel anything. Just went
on with my day. It was fine. I didn't feel
any type of effect. That's okay too. We are helping
to bring down the activity level, right, We're helping to
with this particular technique.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Hopefully they're going down to a four to a two,
to a three, to a one to a zero.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
There are times they go up to a ten and
they stay at a ten and the session ends with
them being at a ten, and we're letting them know
that that's okay too, and obviously bringing in other different
type of techniques that we learned in therapy school like
CBT and other different type of techniques that we can
do as far as talk therapy, so that they have
the techniques and the tools to be able to process
(19:57):
and cope as a relate to the particular feelings that
they're feeling because I won't see you until next week. However,
the goal isn't for them to feel one hundred percent
better or feeling as far as no particular feeling after
the end of the brain spoty session.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And you mentioned that you are not typically doing a
lot of talking, so you're kind of just moving the
pointer and checking in with them around.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
You know what got activated when you move.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
To a certain place and you're just allowing them to talk.
At what point are you kind of like either wrapping
it up or moving the pointer again? Like, how does
the flow of the session because you do say like, Okay,
we're not going to see each other for another week.
So it sounds like sessions are still about an hour
fifty minutes or so. So at what point are you
kind of like wrapping up the processing that they're doing.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I do a little bit more talking and I'm explaining
to them, Okay, we've got about maybe ten minutes left
in the session. Five minutes and left in the session.
I'm just checking in. Maybe they're process a little bit more,
maybe they won't. Maybe they're just completely focused there on
that poinner or whatnot, and that's the processing, just them
being focused on a porner. Others may talk and do
more what they're talking. Others may cry and do more
(21:03):
with the crying or whatnot. But as we're moving towards
the latter part of the minutes of the sessions, I
am communicating with them and letting them know as far
as the session coming.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
To a close.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Then once they're agreeable that everything is complete for them
in that particular session, this is what we're going to
work through. I'll bring down the pointer, check back in
with them, talk about next steps when we meet next
and different things that nature.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
What you may feel after the sessions.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
What you may not feel You may feel like you
can go run and do XYZ. You may just need
to take a couple of minutes like any other therapy
session and just sit over to yourself for a little bit
and collect your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I want to know who would be maybe a good
candidate or maybe not a good candidate for brain spotting.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Everybody is a good candidate for brain spotting.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Everybody.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It does not matter your background, socioeconomic status, raise everybody
is a good candidate for brain spotting. I actually had
the special privilege of participating in both of my training sessions.
Want to become certified in a BIPOC training Black Indigenous
Practitioners of color.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
And when David would come in to introduce.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Himself the founder, he talked about that particular question and
he talked about everyone having the opportunity to be exposed,
to understand and to learn more about brain spotting. That
brain spotting is not just for someone writing a Mercedes
or owns XYZ.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Brain Spotting is just as.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Effective and may be more needed for someone who's taken
the bus. And you know, for me, as a black clinician,
what can I do and how can I be purposeful
and intentional as far as getting brain spotting out to
the community where people look like myself, my features and
all of that good stuff, that can learn a little
(22:57):
bit more about this body based modality and how we
can bring the body into the healing process. When it
comes to psychotherapy, they do tell us that if you're
working with certain populations, obviously to take that under consideration
and what particular training you may need. That's another benefit
of brain spotting. Therapists are not the only people trained
(23:20):
in brain spotting. Nurses, medical doctors, psychiatrists, occupational therapists, physical
therapists are trained in brain spotting have become consultants or
international trainers. My consultant actually when I was getting my
clinical hours for my certification, she was a registered nurse.
And is there I know, I'm sure this is different
for every client, but is there like an average number
(23:42):
of sessions that.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
People typically complete of brain spoting?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
There is no average number of sessions. So when they
ask how many sessions is it going to take for
me to start to feel better? You can feel better
after the first session, you can feel better after the
fifth session. Some it may take a little bit longer,
but you will start to feel better.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
And how are you gauging effectiveness?
Speaker 4 (24:04):
That is a really good question.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
They come back and effectiveness looks different for each person. Obviously,
going back to what brought them effectiveness could be I
started out as a five. By the end of that session, Nicole,
I was at a ten. But for some reason something
different took place after I ended with you. I just
felt as though I was able to cope.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
It was just a.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Different experience of a ten. So that felt sense coming
back into play for them, and I'll ask them what
did you mean by that? Can you tell me a
little bit more about what that meant? I don't know
whereas before I may have been prone to do something maladaptive,
you know, unhealthy. I just found myself this will pass.
Maybe it goes back to some of the psycho education
that we were doing prior, as far as what I
(24:52):
was learning a little bit more about my body. Okay,
I'm just in panic. This is what's going on. This
is why I'm feeling this tightness. This is why I'm
feeling this. This is why I'm feel knowing that and
I called a friend, or I started a journal, or
I ran a bath, or I took a walk, So
even though I was feeling these symptoms, I can cope
and I'm back here and I would like to try
it again.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
That's effective.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
More from our conversation after the break, So how did
you become interested in this nicole? And I'm curious to
know how learning more about like some of these body
and movement based modalities have really expanded your practice.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
So from a personal standpoint, I have experienced loss, grief
and loss, specifically both of my parents passing at a
very young age. By the time I was thirty one,
I buried both of my parents. My father died tragically.
My mother died eight years to the day after he passed.
So May first, my father died May second, my mother died.
(25:58):
We actually transitioned her into hospice the day that he died,
on his eighth anniversary. She died twenty four hours later.
So as you can imagine that time of year, this
time of year has always been like a boom boom,
it's always been like a double whammy or whatnot. And
had a really good mentor licensed clinical social worker at
that particular point, both of my parents had died via hospice,
(26:19):
so I had the privilege of seeking services through hospice,
and she said, well, is anyone doing body based modalities
with you? And of course I was body based modalities
And she's explaining to me a little bit more as
far as what that may mean, as far as unlocking
some of the grief that was taking place with me
because of the double deaths and experiencing them as simultaneously
(26:42):
as I did. And I said no, She said, it
just might be something you may want to look into.
And she just started sending me some research and some information,
knowing me and knowing that I'm something of a lover
of all knowledge, and I would, you know, research myself
and look into a little bit more. And I just
started doing that. And she had already been trained, i
want to say, in brain spotting and was explaining to
(27:04):
me that might be something that I may want to
look into as far as also being trained in, particularly
with the work that I was doing with young black women.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
And I signed up and I took.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
A course and I started the training, and I guess
the rest is history, as they say.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
So you already talked a little bit about, you know,
really wanting to bring this to black and brown communities.
Why do you think modalities like this are very good
or could be a really good fit for the black
women clients that you see.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Culture mental health has a stigma in the black community,
just the stigma associated with mental health. And when we
hear counseling and when we hear therapy and culture, what
happens in this house stays in this house. We don't
(27:53):
talk about it, talk talk, We don't talk about it.
So who am I to say what someone needs to
be doing as far as talking about it when we
may be a part of a culture where we don't
talk about it, And how can you when we already
said when we first started out and the Olympic system,
(28:15):
trauma has no sense of time, has no sense of language.
We hear people say after a traumatic event sometimes I
just had no words. I literally had no words for
what happened to me. I had no words.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
No, you did it.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
And part of what I do to validate them in
that therapeutic process, how could you? The Olympic system has
no sense of time, and it has no sense of language.
And keep in mind, you don't talk with your mouth.
We talk out of our mouth. But there's a particular
part in the brain that's aiding in us talking, just
like you see with your brain, you hear with your brain,
(28:52):
you feel with your brain. How we touched, how we
were touched those first five years of life, the attachment
that went back to nine times out of tend a
primary caregiver, which was a mother. That all was taking place.
As far as the development of the brain, so the
olympics system, the occipital lobe which helps us to see,
which overlaps with other loaves, as far as the perietal
(29:14):
lobe which helps us to feel in touch, which also
overlaps with the temporal lobe that goes back to sound,
which also is over here near the prefrontal cortex. As
far as language and different things that nature we learn language,
acquisition and comprehension and speech, all of that with the brain.
Wouldn't it help us to have techniques that aid us
(29:36):
in regards to helping someone who has no words to.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Not have to have words.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Do I necessarily need to know exactly what happened when
you were ten years old in that particular situation that happened.
David Graham says, No, the specifics and the details aren't
necessarily what's important helping my individual or putting an environment
as a clinician. We learn that in therapy school as
far as the achievement and as far as the therapeutic
alliance and person centered thinking, all that good stuff that's
(30:06):
going to aid them and being able to process however
they need to process. Possibly is what's more of importance
for me than knowing specifically based off of your language,
specifically what happened to you. If that person just needs
to cry for thirty minutes, that's how they processed.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
So if somebody is interested in finding a brain spoting
practitioner to work with.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Where would they find these people?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Like is there a directory you talked about like needing certification?
So how can they find somebody who is credential to
do this kind of work?
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Right on the brain spotting website brainspotting dot com, every
certified brain sparting practitioner, every consultant, and every international trainer
is listed on the website their particular state, their name,
their license, and what their expertise is. Like myself certified
brain sparting practitioner, you will find that on the website.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
And for therapists who may be enjoying our conversation, what
kinds of things do they need? To know if they're
interested in getting trained in this kind of modality, go.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Straight on that website.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
You'll be able to see as far as what's listed,
as far as different particular trainings where they're listed. He
has trainings, different trainers from all over the world, almost
every continent. David Brand has been to talk a little
bit more as it relates to the benefits of brain
spotting and how all different types of people of all
different topic walks of life and cultures are getting trained
(31:33):
in brainspotting.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So it sounds like that website is a great source
of resources if people have any kinds of questions or
want to learn more about brainspotting in general. Right there, Perfect, Well,
what is your website, Nicole? Is there a website that
you can share any social media handles where people can
stay connected with you.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yes, the name of my practice is Jeweler's Health.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I practice here in the local area of Charlotte, North Carolina,
and you can go on Jewelerhealth dot org health dot
org to.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Find me Perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
with us today, Nicole. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
I appreciate meeting doctor Joy.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
I'm so glad Nicole was able to share her expertise
with us today. To learn more about her and her work,
be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three thirty four, And don't
forget to text two of your girls right now and
tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
(32:38):
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be in community with other sisters, come on over
and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
corner of the Internet, designed just for black women. You
can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
(33:01):
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Take good care.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
What introducing the new Therapy for Black Girls holiday gift collection,
our new ensemble of Drinkwaar totes, journals, and sweatshirts were
designed with coziness and utility in mind, while offering a
gentle reminder that we are precious cargo and should be
handled with care. Happy holidays, y'all, remember to take good
(33:33):
care and give good gifts.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three thirty four of the
Therapy Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
a word from our sponsors introducing the new Therapy for
Black Girl's holiday gift collection. Our new ensemble of drinkwaar totes, journals,
and sweatshirts were designed with coziness and utility in mind,
(01:20):
while offering a gentle reminder that we are precious cargo
and should be handled with care. Happy holidays, y'all, remember
to take good care and give good gifts. In passing,
you've likely heard the phrase the eyes are the windows
(01:42):
to the soul. But did you know that there is
an emerging body based modality that works to process client
trauma through movement in the eyes. It's called brain spotting,
and today's guest is here to share all about it.
Nicole Bryant is a licensed mental health clinician practicing in
North Carolina. Nicole specializes in neural psychotherapy and is currently
(02:04):
a certified brain spotting practitioner. In our conversation, we discussed
the science behind brain spotting, how brain spotting can serve
as an alternative for clients to dissatisfy with talk therapy,
and why she believes communities of color could benefit most
from this treatment. If something resonates with you while enjoying
our conversation, please share it with us on social media
(02:26):
using the hashtag TBG in session or join us over
in the sister circle To talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Nicole, Thank you for having me very excited.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
To chat with you.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So you specialize in neural psychotherapy and you're a certified
brain spotting practitioner. Can you tell us a little bit
about what both of those things are.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Wow, So certify brain spotting practitioner. I'm certified in the
practice of brain spotting. Brain Spotting is a psychological little
neurological technique that has psychological benefits.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
The founder, doctor David Grant. He came upon.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Brain spotting almost twenty years ago, so we're talking about
a fairly new treatment modality. He is certified in EMDR
and he founded his practice in New York. When he
was using EMDR with a patient. This particular patient was
a figure skater, so she was an athlete and she
was having difficulty meeting this particular technique as it relates
(03:36):
to ice skating. She was coming up and then coming
back down and falling, and she's meeting with doctor Graham
and she's starting to discuss just what's taking place with
her as an athlete as far as what's taking place
with this technique. And he was doing EMDR with her
and he found while doing a particular technique during EMDR
eye reflexes, he found that her eye began to flicker
(04:01):
when he got to a particular spot, and something in
him said, just stop. MDR is very protocol driven. There's
a way to go about MDR. With this particular reflex
that he was noticing with her eye, he stopped with
the pointer instead of continuing with the MDR technique, and
this overflow of emotion took place. She started crying profusely.
(04:23):
She started talking about her childhood. She started talking about
the effects of the divorce and how mom blamed her
for the divorce, everything that had basically been held in
her for this particular time. And come to find out,
she basically had this fear of rejection and fear of
messing up, fear of not being a followed through. This
was one session she went back to the ice skating
(04:44):
and she was able to nail the particular technique that
she had all this trouble, all these weeks, all these
months of being able to nail.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Wow, So I wonder what kinds of questions was he
asking her related to the way her eye was flirting.
Made him think something's going on there, like how did
he get to this rejection story?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Doctor Graham talks about in brain spotting the uncertainty principle.
Brain spotting has a lot to do with a felt sense.
So his attunement and how attuned he was in the
therapeutic relationship as well as that particular session, his attunement
with her, holding space, with her being present with her
(05:27):
without a neurological background, medical degree background, different things that
nature to basically be able to pinpoint, Okay, this is
what's taking place with her eye. He decided to just
stop talking. He decided to just stop as far as
the particular technique that he was going to do with
EMDR and based off of his felt sense, he just
(05:47):
allowed her to process and she began to process on
her own from a neurobiological level, was processing, crying, talking.
I don't know why, but I just thought of this
memory just came up and I'm thinking of such as such,
and she begins to process based off of that and
from their brain spotting, what was born.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It was almost like a free association thing like he
just stopped the protocol and gave her a space to
kind of talk.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Through what was happening. Absolutely got it.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, so he unlike this for her, and then what
does this look like then in terms of him creating
brain spotting?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
What does he do in brain spotting?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
He creates brain spotting? He starts learning a little bit
more neurobiologically, what's taking place. He starts getting with other
particular scientists and neurobiologists and neuroscientists, and he learns even
more in regards to EMDR and he's getting with different
people and they're letting him know what is taking place
neurobiology and what is taking place from a neurological standpoint
(06:49):
in different things that nature, and he starts to develop
a little bit more and a little bit more and
a little.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Bit more in regards to brain spotting.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
So me particularly in order to become certified in brain spotting,
you have to go through two phases of treatment, Phase one,
in phase two, and in phase one, we're learning the
basic techniques such as why access access, We're learning as
far as inside window, outside window resourcing and different things
that nature, and we evolve a little bit more in
(07:20):
phase two. And then from phase two, I'm meeting with
a consultant and I'm basically getting some supervision in regards
to my.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Techniques and different things that nature.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And after I complete a certain amount of hours and
a certain amount of supervision consultation hours, I go before
the Brain Spotting Institute and I'm awarded certification.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And you also mentioned having specialization in neuropsychotherapy, So what
is that.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So I'm a lover of all things knowledge and learning
a little bit more and my first training session you'll say,
with brain spotting and learning a little bit more about it.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
For me, it was wanting to take.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
It a little bit further and learn from a neurological
neuroscience level what is taking place within the brain and
sensations and all of that good stuff. And my facilitator
as a related to brain spoting is explaining it to
us that there's different schools that you'll be able to
learn a little bit more as it relates to neuroscience
getting the fundamentals. So Harvard University offers fundamentals and neuroscience
(08:24):
program and I enroll and I'm completing the different series
and I've completed completely and I get the certification as
it relates to fundamentals. So now being able to take
this background knowledge of neuroscience and perception and sensation in
regards to the brain and tying that to what I
know now with certified brain spotting practitioner, I've basically developed
(08:48):
my practice as far as being able to from a
psycho physiological level, how can I help the person sitting
in front of me who tends to be black and
brown and tends to be a woman. What complex trauma?
Not just PTSD, but complex PTSD. Bringing in body awareness,
helping her understand what's taking place as to why you're
(09:10):
possibly feeling like this from a neurological level, and then
from there giving her the space as far as being
able to process whatever she needs to process in the
time that she is with me.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
God is so the neuropsychotherapy piece is really much more
sharing with clients. Okay, what's happening in your body when
maybe you're having a panic attack, or when you talk
about this experience with your mom, Here's what's.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Happening in your brain?
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Got it? Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Okay, So you mentioned that brain spotting started as a
spin off basically from EMDR. He was practicing EMDR. So
how is it different? In what ways are they maybe similar?
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I have no training MDR. From what I know what
brain spotting again goes back to the uncertainty principle. MDR
is more protocol driven as far as what they're learning
from MDR, being certified in MDR protocol, how to go
about the different techniques. Brain spotty not as much. You're
allowing the client really to guide you as to really
(10:07):
what is taking place. So let's say inside window or
even outside window, I'm watching them from a therapist standpoint,
when I'm observing what I may be seeing in their
eyes other different type of reflexes they may on. This
is the reflex that I'm seeing seeing based off of
what I'm doing with the pointer. Just focus right there
(10:28):
and what the felt says? Can you let me know
what's taking place before we're starting the technique. On a
scale of zero to ten, what are you feeling right
now in your body? Someone might say, I'm coming in
with a little bit more anxiety. I've just felt this panic.
Where do you feel that from head to toe? Where
would you pinpoint that? And then once they let me
know when they pinpoint that on a scale of zero
(10:49):
to ten, what would you rate that? Zero being nothing,
ten being what it is? Okay, well, we're gonna look
for maybe if there's any type of activation, and I'm
going to bring this point, but I'm going to take
it three spots across your visual field. The only thing
you need to do is just focus on the pointer.
That's all I need to do. Just keep your eyes
on the pointer, and then based off of what I'm
(11:11):
seeing when them do is they're looking at the pointer,
I may be able to give them some feedback us too.
I just notice a lot of blinking right now as
you're looking at that particular spot.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I just noticed you took a yawn. I did.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, you just took a big yawn, which could be
a reflex. I'm noticing something taking place with your head
or your neck. Just focus there for a bit. Do
you feel a bit of an activation? You say you
were about a six when we started. What are you
feeling now? I'm at a ten. I don't know why.
I'm just feeling really really anxious. I'm getting really really okay, Okay, well,
just focus there on the corner and just let me
(11:42):
know what you're noticing about that ten. And then a
lot of times, if they haven't had experience with brain spotting,
they're looking at the porner. Then they're looking back at
me because they're wondering why I'm not talking. So a
lot of times I'll let them know before brain spotting.
Talk therapy versus brain spotting is a bit different. Don't
do a lot of talking. I'm allowing you to process
(12:04):
anything that comes up for you, it doesn't have to
make sense. Feel free to process it.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Anything.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
It could be a thought, it could be a feeling
and emotion, it could be a memory, maybe a song
just popped up. Anything that comes up to you, feel
free to process. And then something comes up and they
start processing. I don't know why. I just thought of
my dad, tell me about that, and they're starting to
process X, Y and Z and a.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Lot of times what they do.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Going back to the neural psychotherapy, I'm explaining to them
as it relates to the brain, and I'll let them know.
Just take your fist and inside right here is the
middle part and outside here is the outer part of
the brain, and we have what's called the prefuntal cortext our.
Cerebral cortext has taken place outside here and inside here
probably the middle part mid part brain. Well outside here
(12:53):
we do a lot of talking, like in talk therapy
or the only mammals that have.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
A prefuntal cortex.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
That's why we talk, and mammal stay in the fight
and flight and do other different type of things to
communicate what they need. Well, what we're doing with brain spotting,
we're bypassing the cerebral cortex, and we're going straight into
the mid part here where emotions are stored. Every emotion
that you've had since birth, whether you remembered or not,
is stored there in our limbic system which houses our emotions.
(13:20):
And what we're doing right now is going straight into
the subcortical with the use of your eyes, and you're
starting to process, and then a memory or something just
popped up for you. Because keep in mind, in your
o limbic system, where our emotions are stored, it's something
called our hippocampus. And the way you can think about
the hippocampus is like a file cabinet, and all of
us have a file cabinet in our desk at our
(13:42):
home office XYZ where we have files where we file them.
We pull it out when we need to get that file,
and then when we're done, we place it back. Well,
sometimes trauma impairs that. It impairs the ability to be
able to file away the memory because the event was
so traumatic, stressful, and impaired the brain's natural ability to
(14:03):
be able to tuck it away, file it away and
pull it out when I need to. In other words,
I have control trauma impairs that because we know what
the Olympics system. There's no sense of time, there's no
sense of language. So whether it happened five years ago
or whether it happened fifty years ago, it's replaying and
it's coming up for us in this traumatic experience.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
And it worked. It did.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You're sitting in front of me as a human being.
You have a fight and a flight system that's going
to help keep you surviving, that's going to help keep
you here.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
It worked.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
And the brain, almost like a computer, is still trying
to do the different downloads and uploads and all that
good stuff that it does, and it's having difficulty doing that,
so it goes into these fits of rages, or it
has hyper arousal, or it gets angry. It's pacing nightmares
flashbacks as a way to try to process the files
(14:59):
that are in the file cabinet, but instead of all
over the desk, and what we're going to try and
do with the processing that you're doing right now is
put those papers away back into the hippocampus where they're
supposed to be, and you take them out when you
want to, not when someone upsets you, when you're.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Triggered more from our conversation after the break, So I
feel like you've already given us a little bit of like, Okay,
what's happening in these sessions?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
But can you set the stage for us?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So let's say somebody calls your office, they maybe found
your website or something, they say, I want to try
brain spotting. Can you set the stage for us for
what happens in your first session? Would do subsequent sessions
look like? How long does it take? Can you kind
of walk us through that process?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Each client is different and almost always already out with
the consultation first, deciding what's in the best interests of
them as well as myself as it relates to the therapeutic relationship.
And then after we make the decision to go ahead
and decide to move forward, we schedule the first session,
and I'm letting them know in the first session and
the intake, we're probably not going to get into brain
spotting too quickly, wanting to get to know you a
(16:19):
little bit more, wanting to do a little bit more
psycho education. I do a lot of psycho education first
leading into the brain spotting session.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Some of my clients have heard of brain.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Spotting, some of them haven't, and because it is a
different technique in comparison to quote unquote talk therapy. I'm
explaining to them about fighting flight. Some of them have
heard of it, some of them haven't, explaining to them
about what the nervous system is looking like under fight
and flight, and different things of that nature. Some homework assignments,
all of that good stuff. And then maybe about the
fourth fifth session in they're ready. They're talking a little
(16:51):
bit more, building a little bit more rapport, getting to
know me a little bit more.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
And what we'll do first is we'll start out with
some music.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
So with brain spot David Grant he invented biolateral music,
so biobing two lateral music that they're putting in the
headphones earphones, and it's too because it's going in both sides.
As far as the hemispheres of the brain, we know
that the audio sensation aids as it relates to a
feeling of a neutralness, then maybe start to feel calm.
(17:21):
They don't have to be calm in order to do
brain spotting, but they're going to start to feel a
bit of a neutral feeling or relaxed feeling. I'll just
remind them of where they are. Just remember that you're
sitting down. You may start to feel a little bit
more relaxed. And then I'm asking them what are you feeling?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
So is the music a particular kind of music? Is
it like standardized music that you play for every first
session or just some music you pick.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So the biolateral music has like the beach wavy sound,
and then there's drums, and then there's something else that's
being played. And what I'll tell them is just press play.
They'll get the link and I say, just press play anything.
I can listen to anything, anything, Just press play. Just
put it at a comfortable level where you can hear
it and me so if you need to adjust it,
that's fine because I just want you to baby to
(18:06):
hear me just in case I have any questions, and
just listen to the music as we focus.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
On the pointer.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Oh so the music is playing as you are doing
the pointing. Absolutely, And so what happens like after the
session and like how do you maybe bring them out
of this and you know, allow them to kind of
move on with the rest of their day.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Again, it goes back to David Grant the uncertainty principle,
and he talks about the brain being designed to do
exactly what it needs to do. The brain knows what
it needs to do. The brain is healing as we're
doing these particular brain spotting techniques, and it's going to
continue to heal. And I'll let them know that your
brain knows exactly what it needs to do. As far
(18:47):
as any particular side effects or anything like that, No,
just allow the brain to take place. Now, this is
a body based modality. So you may feel so certain
type of things within your body.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
You may not. You may have dreams, you may not.
You may have crying spells, you may not.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
You may be just aokay and back and sitting in
front of me the next week and I don't know
that pointer thing.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I feel better.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I don't know why, but I'm just feeling a little
bit more relieved from feeling a little bit more.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Can we try that again?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Sure, and we go back into as far as that
particular technique. O. They're saying, I feel anything. Just went
on with my day. It was fine. I didn't feel
any type of effect. That's okay too. We are helping
to bring down the activity level, right, We're helping to
with this particular technique.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Hopefully they're going down to a four to a two,
to a three, to a one to a zero.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
There are times they go up to a ten and
they stay at a ten and the session ends with
them being at a ten, and we're letting them know
that that's okay too, and obviously bringing in other different
type of techniques that we learned in therapy school like
CBT and other different type of techniques that we can
do as far as talk therapy, so that they have
the techniques and the tools to be able to process
(19:57):
and cope as a relate to the particular feelings that
they're feeling because I won't see you until next week. However,
the goal isn't for them to feel one hundred percent
better or feeling as far as no particular feeling after
the end of the brain spoty session.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And you mentioned that you are not typically doing a
lot of talking, so you're kind of just moving the
pointer and checking in with them around.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
You know what got activated when you move.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
To a certain place and you're just allowing them to talk.
At what point are you kind of like either wrapping
it up or moving the pointer again? Like, how does
the flow of the session because you do say like, Okay,
we're not going to see each other for another week.
So it sounds like sessions are still about an hour
fifty minutes or so. So at what point are you
kind of like wrapping up the processing that they're doing.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I do a little bit more talking and I'm explaining
to them, Okay, we've got about maybe ten minutes left
in the session. Five minutes and left in the session.
I'm just checking in. Maybe they're process a little bit more,
maybe they won't. Maybe they're just completely focused there on
that poinner or whatnot, and that's the processing, just them
being focused on a porner. Others may talk and do
more what they're talking. Others may cry and do more
(21:03):
with the crying or whatnot. But as we're moving towards
the latter part of the minutes of the sessions, I
am communicating with them and letting them know as far
as the session coming.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
To a close.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Then once they're agreeable that everything is complete for them
in that particular session, this is what we're going to
work through. I'll bring down the pointer, check back in
with them, talk about next steps when we meet next
and different things that nature.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
What you may feel after the sessions.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
What you may not feel You may feel like you
can go run and do XYZ. You may just need
to take a couple of minutes like any other therapy
session and just sit over to yourself for a little bit
and collect your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I want to know who would be maybe a good
candidate or maybe not a good candidate for brain spotting.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Everybody is a good candidate for brain spotting.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Everybody.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It does not matter your background, socioeconomic status, raise everybody
is a good candidate for brain spotting. I actually had
the special privilege of participating in both of my training sessions.
Want to become certified in a BIPOC training Black Indigenous
Practitioners of color.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
And when David would come in to introduce.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Himself the founder, he talked about that particular question and
he talked about everyone having the opportunity to be exposed,
to understand and to learn more about brain spotting. That
brain spotting is not just for someone writing a Mercedes
or owns XYZ.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Brain Spotting is just as.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Effective and may be more needed for someone who's taken
the bus. And you know, for me, as a black clinician,
what can I do and how can I be purposeful
and intentional as far as getting brain spotting out to
the community where people look like myself, my features and
all of that good stuff, that can learn a little
(22:57):
bit more about this body based modality and how we
can bring the body into the healing process. When it
comes to psychotherapy, they do tell us that if you're
working with certain populations, obviously to take that under consideration
and what particular training you may need. That's another benefit
of brain spotting. Therapists are not the only people trained
(23:20):
in brain spotting. Nurses, medical doctors, psychiatrists, occupational therapists, physical
therapists are trained in brain spotting have become consultants or
international trainers. My consultant actually when I was getting my
clinical hours for my certification, she was a registered nurse.
And is there I know, I'm sure this is different
for every client, but is there like an average number
(23:42):
of sessions that.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
People typically complete of brain spoting?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
There is no average number of sessions. So when they
ask how many sessions is it going to take for
me to start to feel better? You can feel better
after the first session, you can feel better after the
fifth session. Some it may take a little bit longer,
but you will start to feel better.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
And how are you gauging effectiveness?
Speaker 4 (24:04):
That is a really good question.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
They come back and effectiveness looks different for each person. Obviously,
going back to what brought them effectiveness could be I
started out as a five. By the end of that session, Nicole,
I was at a ten. But for some reason something
different took place after I ended with you. I just
felt as though I was able to cope.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
It was just a.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Different experience of a ten. So that felt sense coming
back into play for them, and I'll ask them what
did you mean by that? Can you tell me a
little bit more about what that meant? I don't know
whereas before I may have been prone to do something maladaptive,
you know, unhealthy. I just found myself this will pass.
Maybe it goes back to some of the psycho education
that we were doing prior, as far as what I
(24:52):
was learning a little bit more about my body. Okay,
I'm just in panic. This is what's going on. This
is why I'm feeling this tightness. This is why I'm
feeling this. This is why I'm feel knowing that and
I called a friend, or I started a journal, or
I ran a bath, or I took a walk, So
even though I was feeling these symptoms, I can cope
and I'm back here and I would like to try
it again.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
That's effective.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
More from our conversation after the break, So how did
you become interested in this nicole? And I'm curious to
know how learning more about like some of these body
and movement based modalities have really expanded your practice.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
So from a personal standpoint, I have experienced loss, grief
and loss, specifically both of my parents passing at a
very young age. By the time I was thirty one,
I buried both of my parents. My father died tragically.
My mother died eight years to the day after he passed.
So May first, my father died May second, my mother died.
(25:58):
We actually transitioned her into hospice the day that he died,
on his eighth anniversary. She died twenty four hours later.
So as you can imagine that time of year, this
time of year has always been like a boom boom,
it's always been like a double whammy or whatnot. And
had a really good mentor licensed clinical social worker at
that particular point, both of my parents had died via hospice,
(26:19):
so I had the privilege of seeking services through hospice,
and she said, well, is anyone doing body based modalities
with you? And of course I was body based modalities
And she's explaining to me a little bit more as
far as what that may mean, as far as unlocking
some of the grief that was taking place with me
because of the double deaths and experiencing them as simultaneously
(26:42):
as I did. And I said no, She said, it
just might be something you may want to look into.
And she just started sending me some research and some information,
knowing me and knowing that I'm something of a lover
of all knowledge, and I would, you know, research myself
and look into a little bit more. And I just
started doing that. And she had already been trained, i
want to say, in brain spotting and was explaining to
(27:04):
me that might be something that I may want to
look into as far as also being trained in, particularly
with the work that I was doing with young black women.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
And I signed up and I took.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
A course and I started the training, and I guess
the rest is history, as they say.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
So you already talked a little bit about, you know,
really wanting to bring this to black and brown communities.
Why do you think modalities like this are very good
or could be a really good fit for the black
women clients that you see.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Culture mental health has a stigma in the black community,
just the stigma associated with mental health. And when we
hear counseling and when we hear therapy and culture, what
happens in this house stays in this house. We don't
(27:53):
talk about it, talk talk, We don't talk about it.
So who am I to say what someone needs to
be doing as far as talking about it when we
may be a part of a culture where we don't
talk about it, And how can you when we already
said when we first started out and the Olympic system,
(28:15):
trauma has no sense of time, has no sense of language.
We hear people say after a traumatic event sometimes I
just had no words. I literally had no words for
what happened to me. I had no words.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
No, you did it.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
And part of what I do to validate them in
that therapeutic process, how could you? The Olympic system has
no sense of time, and it has no sense of language.
And keep in mind, you don't talk with your mouth.
We talk out of our mouth. But there's a particular
part in the brain that's aiding in us talking, just
like you see with your brain, you hear with your brain,
(28:52):
you feel with your brain. How we touched, how we
were touched those first five years of life, the attachment
that went back to nine times out of tend a
primary caregiver, which was a mother. That all was taking place.
As far as the development of the brain, so the
olympics system, the occipital lobe which helps us to see,
which overlaps with other loaves, as far as the perietal
(29:14):
lobe which helps us to feel in touch, which also
overlaps with the temporal lobe that goes back to sound,
which also is over here near the prefrontal cortex. As
far as language and different things that nature we learn language,
acquisition and comprehension and speech, all of that with the brain.
Wouldn't it help us to have techniques that aid us
(29:36):
in regards to helping someone who has no words to.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Not have to have words.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Do I necessarily need to know exactly what happened when
you were ten years old in that particular situation that happened.
David Graham says, No, the specifics and the details aren't
necessarily what's important helping my individual or putting an environment
as a clinician. We learn that in therapy school as
far as the achievement and as far as the therapeutic
alliance and person centered thinking, all that good stuff that's
(30:06):
going to aid them and being able to process however
they need to process. Possibly is what's more of importance
for me than knowing specifically based off of your language,
specifically what happened to you. If that person just needs
to cry for thirty minutes, that's how they processed.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
So if somebody is interested in finding a brain spoting
practitioner to work with.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Where would they find these people?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Like is there a directory you talked about like needing certification?
So how can they find somebody who is credential to
do this kind of work?
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Right on the brain spotting website brainspotting dot com, every
certified brain sparting practitioner, every consultant, and every international trainer
is listed on the website their particular state, their name,
their license, and what their expertise is. Like myself certified
brain sparting practitioner, you will find that on the website.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
And for therapists who may be enjoying our conversation, what
kinds of things do they need? To know if they're
interested in getting trained in this kind of modality, go.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Straight on that website.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
You'll be able to see as far as what's listed,
as far as different particular trainings where they're listed. He
has trainings, different trainers from all over the world, almost
every continent. David Brand has been to talk a little
bit more as it relates to the benefits of brain
spotting and how all different types of people of all
different topic walks of life and cultures are getting trained
(31:33):
in brainspotting.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So it sounds like that website is a great source
of resources if people have any kinds of questions or
want to learn more about brainspotting in general. Right there, Perfect, Well,
what is your website, Nicole? Is there a website that
you can share any social media handles where people can
stay connected with you.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yes, the name of my practice is Jeweler's Health.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I practice here in the local area of Charlotte, North Carolina,
and you can go on Jewelerhealth dot org health dot
org to.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Find me Perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
with us today, Nicole. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
I appreciate meeting doctor Joy.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
I'm so glad Nicole was able to share her expertise
with us today. To learn more about her and her work,
be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three thirty four, And don't
forget to text two of your girls right now and
tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
(32:38):
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be in community with other sisters, come on over
and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
corner of the Internet, designed just for black women. You
can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
(33:01):
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Take good care.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
What introducing the new Therapy for Black Girls holiday gift collection,
our new ensemble of Drinkwaar totes, journals, and sweatshirts were
designed with coziness and utility in mind, while offering a
gentle reminder that we are precious cargo and should be
handled with care. Happy holidays, y'all, remember to take good
(33:33):
care and give good gifts.
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