April 3, 2024 • 38 mins
Playing with markers, clay, and stencils is something we may recall fondly from our youth, but today dismiss as childish. Art Therapy, however, is a very legitimate and relaxing form of therapy for all ages that challenges us to think through our emotions by putting pen to paper. To tell us more, today we're joined by Chicago based artist and registered art therapist, Pierra D. Brown. Since graduating with her Master’s from the School of the Art Institute, she’s worked both in communities, schools, and hospitals to provide clinical services to people of all ages.
During our conversation, Pierra and I discuss the training needed to become an art therapist, how art therapy can be used as an alternative or in supplement with traditional talk therapy, and what art therapy can teach us about shedding our perfectionist habits.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi. I'm Pierre D. Brown and I'm on the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my
work as an art therapist.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Playing with markers, clay, and stencils is something we may
recall fondly from our youth, but today dismiss as childish.
Art therapy, however, is a very legitimate and relaxing form
of therapy for all ages that challenges us to think
through our emotions by putting pen to paper to tell
us more. Today, I'm joined by Chicago based artist and
(01:44):
registered art therapists Pierra D. Brown. Since graduating with her
Masters from the School of the Art Institute, she's worked
both in communities, schools, and hospitals to provide clinical services
to people of all ages. In recent years, Pierra started
utilizing her social media to raise awareness on what art
therapy is and the benefits it has on mental health
(02:07):
and wellness. During our conversation, Piera and I discussed the
training needed to become an art therapist, how art therapy
can be used as an alternative or in supplement with
traditional talk therapy, and what art therapy can teach us
about shedding our perfectionist habits. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social
(02:28):
media using the hashtag TVG in session or join us
over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for
joining us today, Pierra, Thank.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You for having me. I'm so excited and nervous all
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Oh, it will be painless. I promise, I promise. So
tell me a little bit about how you got started
with art. What is your earliest memory of being an
art lover.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I've always loved art. I'm very like tactiles, always building stuff.
I was into like science kits, little crochet making bees,
through and through ninety childs. So I was like, I
want every craft I've seen. So I was making bracelets,
the little looms, all the things. So I've always been
into art doing art. I never had the thought that
I wanted to be like an artist or anything. I
(03:21):
was just like, I like doing it.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I got it. You know. As I'm thinking, it does
feel like we had a very different relationship to like
arts and crafts as children than I think like my
own children have now, like they do some kind of
like friendship bracelet knitting stuff. But I definitely feel like
we have more crafty kinds of things as children.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
No, we absolutely did. And I love bringing it back
to some of my younger patients or some of my
adults to be like, oh my god, I remember doing
this with it. I was like, yes, bring all the
nineties stuff back.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I love it. I love it. So tell me about
how that journey, like your initial interests in are then
transitioned to you becoming an art therapist. So what inspired
you to actually look into this as a career, Plath,
It was actually.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
A complete accident. I originally was going to get my
bachelors in psychology. I was going to double major education psychology,
but the education programs will to intend, so I like
psychology more and we're required to take like additional electives.
I took a ceramics course, so I was like, oh,
I did in high school, I'll do it again. And
it just so happened that my professor was like, you're
(04:23):
really good at this. What are you in school for?
And I was like, oh, psychology. So he was like,
have you heard of art therapy? I feel like he
slicked with try to get me into the art program,
but he needed, like to diversify it a little bit.
But it all worked out because I had never heard
of art therapy prior to I want to say it
was like the first semester of my junior year of
(04:44):
undergrad got it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah. I do feel like art therapy is one of
those specialties that people kind of find accidentally. Now hopefully
that changes after your interview, right, then people can be
more intentional about teaking it out as a path. But
I think most people often have a story like this right,
like that they find out a about it through Happens Stands.
So tell me, if somebody is looking for an art therapist,
what kinds of things should they be looking for? Like,
(05:07):
are there certain credentials that we should be aware of?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
There is So when you were going through the art
therapy program, you have to get a master's So starting off,
if you're working with someone, they have to have the
MA behind their name that they finish their master's program.
And following that you have the ability. Depending on the
state that you're in, you can either get certified. Illinois
(05:31):
does not have a certification. I'm actually just a registered
art therapist, but they prepare you through the program that
I went through to either go get your LCPC. You
can go that route and so you can have those credentials.
I skipped that route. I wanted to jump just straight
towards my registration. So you have ATR registered art therapists
and then you have ATRBC or certified in the future.
(05:54):
That is my goal. I just don't like taking tests.
It requires taking tests and I'm not a test girl,
but those are the credentials when you're looking for an
art therapist, like an official registered art therapist and not
just someone who, oh I like to do art and
I want to incorporate it with mental health. Those are
the credentials that you will look for.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Got it? So walk us through what an actual art
therapy session looks like, like how is art therapy actually
different from traditional talk therapy?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So I work in two spaces, clinical and a non clinical.
So I'll walk you through my clinical how working and
behavioral health hospital. And so when doing my art therapy,
I work with groups up to twenty patients and my
general groups, I will have like an identified art activity
that I'm going to do with the patients that kind
of touch on different goals that are amongst the general
(06:46):
treatment plan. And so I will start off with an
introduction about who I am, what I'm there for, what
we're going to be doing, and then I will present
them with the art materials and then they will go
through get their art materials, start the activity, and as
they're working, I will interact with the patients. It's a
lot of patients, so it's never just like a sit
down thing, but I will start them with the art activities.
(07:09):
Sometimes the art activity is very open. It's more for
a self care relaxation, being able to sit and calm
and quiet, and sometimes it has like a specific direction,
and as they're going through that, I will check in
with them how are they're feeling. I will ask them questions.
And in that space it's only forty five minutes, so
it's really really quick, and so I'm just trying to
(07:30):
get them to make the art as much as possible.
But as they're making art, I will ask the questions
about how they're feeling emotionally, things that are coming up
for them. In that space. As far as my non
clinical setting, there's a lot more time. I always tell
people whenever they want to work with me, I'm like,
it's an hour thirty minutes to two hours, so that
way they can make the art and then we can
(07:52):
have conversation in the middle of it, and then like
the last fifteen to twenty minutes, then we can engage
in a conversation about emotions that came up for them
while making the art, how it relates back to their
life or their past, whatever it is. In that setting,
there's more time allotted to the processing part of the
art making, and in comparison to a traditional therapist, I'm
(08:14):
just using the art materials, the art directives as a
tool to initiate some one of those thoughts, to spark
those like, oh, I haven't thought about it this way,
and it makes a little bit easier to process.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Got it. So it's interesting that you described the longer process,
like the hour and thirty minutes two hour session as
non clinical, because that sounds more clinical.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
To me in some ways.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Are you talking about it just in terms of like
the settings the hospital versus not in the hospital?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Is that what? Yes? No, it is so clinical me
working behavior health, I'm following and going by specific treatment plans.
I do documentation. Then my non clinical I'm working within
the community. There is no treatment plan. I'm not doing
documentation at the end. But it has the same premise.
It's just it's it's very like it's a little like baselines,
little self care for the non clinical stuff. Some things
(09:04):
can come up, they might be like triggering or some
experiences that they have, but in the non clinical setting,
we can briefly touch on that and then I can
refer them to someone else versus like it coming back
to me that kind of like.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Help that is helpful. So I'm curious how are you choosing,
like what kinds of art activities your clients and your
patients are doing, and what is the purpose? So like
why might you choose one art activity versus another, and
like why are you even using art?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Okay, I will break it down because I work with
like adults, pediatric and adolescents. So for my adults, I'm
really big in exposure exposing my patients to art materials
because a lot of the patients I work with are
brown and black and under service areas, so a lot
of the time they have artists taken out of schools
and sometimes they don't get that ability to explore art
(09:55):
because a lot of the adults in their mindset arts
for kids. So it's more like an exposed your things.
So I will bring them like a range of art materials.
And within the hospital setting, we are limited to what
we can use. So in my little like little create
that I have to carry, my main things that I
like to bring are markers, oil, pastels, crayons. I have
some stensiles I bring like a folder of like puzzles,
(10:17):
whereas arch just amazes, things that I'm able to like
see visually, like I'm missing some or I can count
I have, like watercolor paints, things that I know, I
can count, I can keep track of because in that space,
some of the patients they're there for specific needs and
they can't be around or they can't have certain materials.
But for the adults, it's just more exposure. I want
(10:38):
to expose them to different art materials, let them explore,
let them just be able to like, I really like this.
I wouldn't have thought to like use oil pastels. I
like how it feels. I like the messiness, or I
used to pay when I was younger. I want to
get back into it. So for my adults, it's just
more bringing them to what they most likely aren't going
to be in contact with in their day to day.
(10:59):
From my adolescents, it ranges so if I'm talking with
my nursing stuff and they say, hey, miss p they've
been struggling with let's say, oh, relationships, and I'm like, okay,
you know, we might have a conversation about relationships and dating,
and I might create an art activity around relationships, identifying
family relationships, romantic friendships, and we'll go from there. And
(11:21):
for my peds, it's always about working as a group,
having to share, transitioning, so going from one spot to
another spot, a little bit of like everything because they're
younger and I want to make sure I like touch
on a lot of things. But when I'm creating the
art activity, I just kind of go day to day,
like I relate today. Can they handle this? Have they
(11:42):
been very aggressive? Can I bring the paints? No, they're
a little too opposed to if I won't bring the paints.
And then as far as my non clinical community stuff,
I usually talk with the organizations and they let me
know what topics that they have to address, and I'm like,
all right, cool, and then from there I'll create a topic,
find art active, and direct it back to the topic
that they want.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Got it. So I had a chance to take an
art therapy elective in grad school, and I'm remembering two
distinct experiences in that class. So one the assignment was
something like to visualize a rose bush and like then
draw it. And I remember really struggling with that because
I had never seen a rose bush like I had
(12:23):
seen like roses at Kroger or you know, like but
I don't think I had ever seen a rose bush,
and so it really was difficult for me to complete
this exercise. And I would imagine like thinking through like
the cultural competence of assigning certain kinds of assignments. Can
you talk about like how you think through like what's
appropriate and you already talked about wanting to expose them
(12:45):
to as many like materials as possible. Can you talk
through like the cultural pieces of why you're choosing certain
assignments for your clients.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Of course, so speaking of like the rose bush activity,
I do have an activity whereas like imagine yourself as
a tree, and we all have a very generic view
of a tree. So I will come prepared with examples
of trees and allow them to explore the variety because
I know they, Like I said, I worked with brown
and black individuals and underserved spaces, and especially in Chicago,
(13:14):
a lot of our patients they don't leave their communities.
Cargo's very segregated, so they don't leave their communities. So
I'm always aware, Okay, will they have some sort of
awareness of what different trees look like? No, I'm going
to provide them with this sort of aid. Sometimes as
far as art materials. I know a lot of the
(13:35):
time no one has ever used oil pastels, but I
will take the time and if they're interested and they're like,
you know, miss P, what is this, I'm like, Oh,
they're oil pastels. Let me show you how you can
use them. I always am prepared to like show them
how to use cerve materials because I know they don't
have that experience, especially my adolescents and my peeds. They're
taking art out of schools, so sometimes they're like, I
(13:57):
want to use those you know, WATERCOLORSK cool? Miss P.
Can you show me how? Yes, I can or my
little kids to work on their fine motor skills working
with stencils. Miss P, I can't do this. I'm going
to show you how. I'm going to walk you through it.
It's taking things that they should traditionally be learning in school,
but bringing it into a space where they're able to
(14:18):
have that opportunity to learn those skills.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Got it? And can you talk about you know, so
you said they do the assignment and then like you're
asking them questions, So what kinds of questions might you
be asking based on whatever the art project was?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You know what? Honestly, it depends on what I'm observing.
So if I'm observing someone who's having a hard time,
like let's say the road situation, I'm like break down
and be like, hey, I noticed you're struggling. What's going
on with you? I've never seen a rose bush before?
And I'm like, really, okay, we'll think of a basic
bush and you know, we'll break it down that way,
and it's just kind of like, why you know, why
haven't you seen like a rose bush? Oh, I live
(14:54):
in apartments, we don't see that, Or how's that experience
for you? And it starts from there and it just
goes into like a guided conversation led by the patients,
but it's all of what I'm observing. If I notice
something in their artwork, I will address what's in their artwork,
and I'll have them try their best to explain like
what they drew or how they came up with this idea.
Today I had like one little kid. He was like
(15:16):
drawing a picture and I'm like, oh, who is that.
That's our little sister. Oh how old your little sister?
She's twelve. I'm like, wait a minute, you sure she's little?
And she's like, wait, you do it's like big sister,
I'm like, okay, you know, are you guys close? Yeah,
this is the end. It just goes from there. And
so I'm like observing what they're working on and then
going off of what they're giving me, and then it
can go further and sometimes they'll ask me questions, They'll
(15:38):
come up with questions, and then we'll engage in conversations
about that. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, I mean, and it really does speak to the
idea that like, it isn't so much about whatever the
art project is you've assigned, right, It's really about the
deeper meaning and what is the motivation. And I think
the other thing with like art therapy and like other
kinds of non traditional kind of talk therapy, is that
you may be able to to get to a concern
or something that it would have taken you much longer
(16:04):
to get to in talk therapy, like art therapy, it
feels like dismantles a little bit. Can you talk a
little bit about how you've seen our therapy be used
and how it may be useful and kind of disarming
in some ways and kind of giving you more space
to have maybe more difficult conversations.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Oh. Absolutely, it definitely breaks that area. So when I
work with adults, sometimes they can come in my group
super super like upset and mad. They've had a hard day,
they haven't talked to their therapists or their doctor, and
they're just like, I just want to sit here. And
I'm like, you could sit there and I'll pull out
some orgony and I'll start making orgon me and they
(16:39):
sit and there like huh and they start to like
relax and chill out a little bit. I'm like, oh,
you want to learn, and they're like no, no, no, no no,
I just want to watch. And I'm like okay, and
then then they'll start looking to peak and I'm like,
let me make you something and they're like yeah, yeah,
you can make me something though, like and it's it's
such a great way to like, even if they're not
engaging in the art activity, it definitely can and like,
(17:00):
just Okay, it's not so bad. This is nice to
watch someone being creative. It's nice to be in a
space that's very calming and relaxing with some of my adolescents.
Some of them, like I said, maybe having a tough day.
They don't know who I am, and when I come
into the spaces. I'm very strict, not like super super strict,
but like, this is what we're doing, this is how
(17:21):
we're doing it because I want the space to be chill.
We only have forty five minutes. So some of them like, oh,
who are you? And I'm just like, listen, I didn't
give you no attitude, don't give me attitude. And then
from there they be like okay. And then we do
on art together and they see something cool and they'd
be like, oh, Okay. Miss PA's not so bad because
I like how she's talking to everyone else in the space,
(17:41):
and so I can also talk to her as well.
I've built many a relationships that started off super rocky
that turned to just missp Oh my gosh, I love you,
and it's just like I love your groups. It's so calm.
I needed this, And so in the hospital setting, it
definitely is really helpful to break that just I'm scared
to be here, I'm angry to be here, or I'm
very nervous. I don't know what I'm getting into.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. So
you said you've worked with a variety of different clients.
So Pedes adolescents and adults. Can you give us a
breakdown of, like how often you're working with each of
(18:25):
those kind of demographics?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Monday through Friday, every day.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
With all all those groups. So you see adults and I.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Do three to four groups today, yes, and so one
group I be peds, one group might be adolescents. So yes,
Monday through Friday. I see those groups. They get to
know me very very well.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Got it. And that's why you're saying, like, oh, I
don't want to be here, because of course, as a
part of them being in the hospital, sometimes these groups
are mandated, right, a part of the treatment. Got it?
Got it? Okay? Okay, So how long are you typically
working with them? Like is the group kind of time?
And in like okay, this is the twelve week group
or can you give us a breakdown of how that works.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So we have a set schedule in my expressive therapy
department and we see them, like I said, Monday through Friday.
It's all dependent on when the individual discharges, but the
groups run regularly unless there's some sort of change. And
like I have mentioned previously, the groups are only forty
five minutes, and so it's just when they are discharging,
(19:25):
that's when they'll be done seeing us. But they will
either see myself or another expressive therapists or like another
art therapist or another WREC therapist from my department, and
just each day we stay on the schedule.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Got it, got it? And of course you work in
it sounds like hospital settings where we know our therapists
work maybe in private practice or in other places. For
somebody who may be enjoying the conversation, how might they
decide whether our therapy is going to be maybe a
good fit for them or their child.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I always say if your child has an interest in art,
it's a good route to go if they already have
an interest in art, because for some people, if they're
not really interested in are they're a little hesitant. Also,
if they've tried traditional therapy and there is no growth,
I would recommend you know, like, hey, try art therapy,
try music therapy, especially for children, that those kind of
(20:17):
avenues help the process of therapy be a little smoother.
And it's like it doesn't feel like therapy feels like
something fun or interesting that they're going to be exploring.
Until it doesn't become fun and interesting. It's like, oh,
we're talking about this today. Oh man, But it is
a good avenue if traditional therapy isn't working for them.
And I know some individuals who do traditional therapy and
(20:40):
an expressive therapy in tandem because you get a little
bit of something from both the spaces.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Got it. So what if I'm considering art therapy but
I don't really feel like I'm a good drawer, like
I'm not super artsy, or maybe my kid is not
what I also benefit from art therapy if I'm not
like a good artist.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Oh, listen, I always tell them, I'm I'm an art teacher.
I'm an art therapist. You're not getting a grade. You
are Listen. You come and you create at whatever level
you're trying to create at all my patients are like
I don't know how to do or I was like,
I'm not giving you a grade. Just come at whatever
creative level you're at, and it is appreciated. On my end,
I love effort. I love that you tried. I appreciate
(21:20):
that you tried, and if you like it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah. I would imagine this is also a great space
to kind of talk through like perfectionistic kinds of tendencies,
right that need to think that there's like only one
way to do an art kind of thing. Can you
say a little bit about how therapy can help with
some of.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
That who when you're working with artists, like full fledged artists,
that perfectionism really is the thing that they struggle with
the most. And so I always encourage them. When I'm
working with artists who are perfectionists, I come to them
from an artist level and say, Okay, you're not here
(21:55):
to be an artist, You're here for therapy. You just
have an additional gift that helps with that. And I
always kind of like encourage them to use it as
like a way to improve their artistic ability. Put it
in that realm. If I'm working with someone who is
an artist, and I always say, try a different material
that you haven't tried before. This is your opportunity to
practice with it. And when you practice with it, you
(22:17):
will get better. And then they'd be like, I didn't
think about that, because I always want to stay with
where they're comfortable, like, oh, I love painting them drying.
Try something different that puts you out there, and then
if you don't like it, then go back to what
you're safe. Is. If they are not experiencing or I say,
have you done this before? Well, no, I said, then
why would you expect to be good at it the
first time. It's going to take practice the same way
(22:37):
that we were learning how to walk when we were younger.
We weren't perfect. We was wild and looking like a
little loose creatures out in the world. And so that's
what I try to instill in them. And I always say,
don't beat yourself up about it, and then if they
want to redo it, they can redo it.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So what actually happens to the art projects are the
assignments that happen as a part of art therapy session,
like do you keep them? Does the client keep them?
What happens with them?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, they keep them unless they want to gifted to me,
my little kids, little like I've made this for you.
I'm like, thank you so much, and listen, I have
a lot of art that's in my little cubicle and
some of them may be going into trash. I'm not
gonna lie about it. And I'm like, yeah, it's still
in my office. But generally I say, it's your art.
I don't you know, unless you want to gifted to me,
it's your art. You do what you want to do.
(23:21):
So I've seen patients like, oh, okay, I'm done and
they throw it away. It's not hurting my feeling because
it's not, like I said, I'm not a teacher and
I don't have an attachment to it. And if you did,
and you just want to do it in the moment,
you want to throw it away, that's what you want
to do with your artists and your possession.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Is there ever a time I can imagine this has happened,
or maybe they are trying to express something that's a
little bit more difficult. How are you having conversations with
them to then maybe talk with parents or other people
in their lives maybe about the art project. Is that
a part of the work.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Too, Because they are inpatient, I don't get that processing
outside of the space. But if there is something that
has reference to like self harm, I will have a
conversation with them and I will like ask them like independently, like, hey,
I noticed we have a lot of this happening in
your artwork. What kind of thoughts are we going through?
Are we feeling safe? And then they'll say yes, they'll
(24:10):
say no, and then I'll say, okay, do you want
me to notify the nursing staff and then they'll be
like yeah, and then we'll go from there. And so
it would be the nursing staff and the other staff
on the units that depending on like how aggressive or
shocking it is, or like some of the conversations they're
having about their artwork that I will direct to them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Got it. Let's say somebody's enjoying our conversation and they're
thinking like, oh, I might want to try this out.
So maybe resources are limited or there is not an
art therapist in their area to work with. What kinds
of strategies or exercises made you suggest for somebody who
maybe wants to dabble in this a little bit, but
not necessarily like sign up for our therapy at this
point of course.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So there are actually quite a few. Social media is
a really great place to look for art therapy because
there's quite a few mutual art therapists that I do
follow up on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, but some
really safe ones. My favorite one that I love to
like introduce to people. It's so simple, you just kind
of go, you trace your hand and then with this activity,
(25:14):
I like to sometimes work on confidence in each of
the fingers. You're going to identify five positive things about
yourself and you get super creative designed like the inside
of the hand on the outside of the hand. A
lot of people are just like, oh, coloring books are
a great start for you if you need something super
super structured. It's the safe place that everyone goes. So
if you want to start that route and gravitate from
(25:35):
coloring books to just openly being creative, creating an art
journal and just utilizing different materials and just creating based
off your emotions, you can. So starting with coloring books
if you are not privy to doing art, starting with
their as you little safe structured space, and then navigating
trying different materials and doing things from there. But YouTube, Instagram, TikTok,
(25:59):
looking for different therapists who put our activities out there.
It's a great way to go more.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
From our conversation after the break. The other memory I
have from that art therapy class was we were required
to make I don't think it was paper mache, but
some kind of like tacky clay something where we made
(26:27):
a mask of our faces and then we had to
decorate the mask. And so the conversation part of it
was like, what was the experience like making the mask?
And then also like what meaning is attached to the
way that you decorated the mask, which I think could
be a pretty powerful conversation and an exercise for black women,
right because we talk all about the mask we wear,
(26:48):
and so to have a physical representation of a mask,
I think could be a really cool exercise as well.
Have you done anything like that with clients?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I have. I do the inner and outer self, so
that I do with my adolescence because a lot of
them are perceived one way, and like I had mentioned,
they are bron and black, and so for my black girls,
how they're perceived on the outward does not reflect how
they're viewed inner. So I love that activity because it
breaks down what they have taken from what people have
(27:18):
said that's stuck to their outer self and how they
have internalized that. So I definitely have done that activity.
We didn't physically make a mask. We do a pay
per form just because like I said, certain materials are
not allowed, but that processing and how they well, my
mama said, I'm a hoe, so I guess it will
be a hoe And it's just like what do you
actually think you know you're that and they're like, no,
(27:40):
I don't feel that way. It's just you know, people
say it or I'm dumb, I'm stupid, and it's just like,
are you just saying that because other people have said it? Well, yeah,
well how do you really feel? I actually feel like
I'm kind of smart. I love science, and they start
this whole thing about how they actually feel. It's just
how they're acting based off of that. So I've definitely
done that activity and it is a very hard one.
Certain activities that I don't like to put out there
(28:03):
into the space because it does open up certain wounds
that if you do not have a trained or license
art therapists or therapist there to help you process it,
it can re trigger some things internally. And so when
people are like, I want to do an art therapy activity,
I'm like, what's something that is safe that is not
(28:24):
going to retraumatize you or make you have these specific
thoughts that you can't close. And so when people say
they want to do that, I'm just like, I'm hesitant
because you have no one there to support you through this,
because it's a journey when you do specific things like.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
That, right, right, Yeah, And I think some of these
conversations around like social media and even sharing activities like that,
is that so much of our training is designed to
like look out for those kinds of things, right, and
so in a non trained person's eyes, it looks like, oh,
just a cool, fun activity, let's just do this, as
opposed to what kinds of things can this kind of
(29:01):
activity open up? So I appreciate you sharing that if
you can also talk about, like why you think our
therapy might be particularly helpful for black women and girls
as opposed to other.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Groups who because it allows them to be soft and vulnerable.
When I always when working with black women organizations and
I say, this is all about you. You're not worried
about your partner, your kids, and you have the ability
(29:32):
to make mistakes and you can be as creative, as sweet,
as cute as you want to be, Versus that I
got to worry about everybody else. I got to be
on guard. I gotta do this, I gotta do that,
And so our therapy is so good with that. And
also it teaches people to relax because I hear it
all the time. It's just like I never get an
opportunity to relax. So even if the directive it might
(29:54):
be a little difficult. The creating process allows them to
just relax and just this is nice. I could just
focus on me and my own thoughts and not everyone else.
It just allows you to be really soft, because when
I'm with my patients, I'd be like.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Oh nice man, nice nice. So you also you've mentioned
like how you share some of this stuff on social media.
Can you talk a little bit about how you balance,
like what is the balance between you kind of working
as an art therapist and also now a content creator
sharing some of this who.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
I've slow down a lot. So I was talking to
my friend and he's like, when did you get started?
And I was like, accidentally, and I had did like
a video and it was like what is your name?
Where you signed? What is your job? And then everyone's like,
I got art therapy. And then it was during COVID,
so everyone was like, oh, yeah, this is great. I
was like I got time. Yeah. Then life happened and
(30:46):
so I took about two months off and then I
was like, okay, I just I want to go slow.
So right now I'm getting back into Okay, I want
to be creative. I want to put more out there.
On social media. I want to navigate, so a lot
of scheduling, a lot of planning, a lot of taking
time to Okay, I know I have to make content,
(31:08):
but I want to relax today, so giving myself that
break when I need it. I recently transitioned to part
time because I was getting a little burned out, so
that has also helped me do the content creating portion
of it. But a lot of planning, a lot of scheduling.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And with that, how are you also finding time to
stay connected to like art pursuits, like those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Everyone to ask me this question, and I don't really
make art like that. I think the art for me
is the content creating part. I'm creative whenever it hits me.
I have like friends who when I first moved to Chicago,
I did pursue being a painter actively, and they're like, Okay,
where are the shows? When are you doing it? And
I'm just like, I'm not really feeling it right now.
(31:50):
I've slowly like done a little bit here and there,
But I just create when I want to create. It's
not my go to as far as like my personal
self care. Everyone assumes that's my for self care. Because
I'm urt therapist. I'm like, no, I like to move.
I'm a little adhd girly.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
So got it? Got it? And who are some of
your favorite artists or your favorite art pieces?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I enjoy boss Yacht. There's this German artist I can't
think of his name, but he makes creepy, grotesque portraits
of people. And that's where I navigated my art too,
just more abstracted portraits. I don't mind portraits. I'm not
gonna lie to you. I don't know names. I just
know visuals.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So I'm curious. Pierre. Is art therapy something that's typically
covered by insurance?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, actually it is. I know through like the hospital setting.
It is required for our patients to get expressive therapy,
which includes our therapy. And because our therapy is in
a lot of majority hospital spaces, yes, it is covered
by insurance. So when anyone is asking me how do
I locate an art therapist, I'm like, number one, if
you have insurance, look through your insurance because we are
(33:00):
through that.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Got it. That's good to know. So you've talked several
times about like art being taken out of schools. I'm
wondering if you have any thoughts or hopes for how
art and art therapy can be reintegrated into schools.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So after I graduated in twenty sixteen with my master's,
I actually did two years in an elementary school and
art was led by a history teacher, and so she
would come to me for ideas and I'll go like, oh,
so I as the art therapist, would do art therapy
with the kids they assigned me. But then I also
(33:35):
worked with Columbia College and they're after school program providing
an art therapy program. So I definitely can see that
there are organizations that go into schools and that can
provide art, and when you're working with art therapists, there's
additional benefits to that. So when I had did it,
you know, I was like, all right, I'm going to
(33:55):
work with the little kids because I know they don't
get art like that. We're going to do things for
fine motors, tracing, cutting, all of those things. For my
bigger kids, we're gonna work on sculptural things that induce
frustration and managing that. So that was like a nice
way to implement that working with programs that provide after school.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
I'm wondering, do you have a preference in terms of
age group, Like, is there a favorite group of clients
that you work with.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I love second graders and then I love the sixth
of the eighth grade. Why because they got little attitudes
and it's so fun because there's all little personalities. It's
just like they actually are like who they're going to be.
That's why I like second grade and then sixth of
the eighth grade. Those are like the very who it's
the very experimental years and then they're trying to figure
(34:42):
out who they are, and so I like being in
the space to provide them with the support and the
person that can go to if they have questions. Working
at the elementary school, that was my favorite group because
they were always missed p I have a question about this.
I'm like, did you ask your mom? Is your mom?
And they're like she won't answer it. I'm like, Okay,
here we go. And it's just I like that age
(35:02):
because they have so many questions and they just are
trying to be young adults and try to navigate that space,
and I'm just like I want to be there to
support them on that journey.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I love it. I love it so even outside of
like an art therapy setting. What kinds of questions can
we be asking ourselves as we are pursuing creative kinds
of things to stay connected to, like our feelings and
emotions as we are exploring creative pursuits.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Honestly, just how am I feeling doing this? That's like
the number one why am I getting mad? And then
the number one thing I also like I took from
undergrad and I bring it to my patients when they're
working on our project. If you're starting to feel yourself
get frustrated, give yourself a break and acknowledge that, Okay,
I'm frustrated right now, I need to break come back
(35:50):
to it with fresh eyes. And then sometimes just do
you actually want to be like using whatever it is
that you're used? Do you want to be using there?
Do you want to use something else? And now are
you forcing yourself to use this? Because sometimes I'd be like,
M I want to use markers, and I'm like, I
don't want to use markers right now, because sometimes you
just think I'm gonna use markers. It's just like I
dont want to use markers. I want to be a
little more tactile, Like what do you need also do
(36:12):
like a physical body check. I want to work with Clay,
I want to do something with my hands. So just
asking yourself though, like how am I feeling? Do I
want to use this material? Do I need to break?
Do I feel done? Like? Am I happy with it?
Am I content? Or do I want to remove it
out my space?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Very helpful questions. Where can we stay connected with you? Pierre?
What is your website as well as any social media
handles like you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
On Instagram you can find me at p erad dot
b and that's p I E R R A D
as a dog dot b as in boy and that's
on Instagram. And then on TikTok you can find me
at Pierra dB. It's the same thing, just a little
dot that's there.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Got it will be short. Include all of that in
the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some
time with us today. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
No problem, This was so nice. I liked it.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Thank you. I'm so glad Piera was able to join
us and share her expertise today, So learn more about
her and the work she's doing. Be sure to visit
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com Slash
Session three fifty three, and don't forget to text two
of your girls right now and tell them to check
out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in
(37:28):
your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue
digging into this topic or just be in community with
other sisters, come on over and join us in the
sister Circle. It's our cozy corn of the Internet designed
just for black women. You can join us at community
dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced
(37:50):
by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. Look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take it care
Speaker 2 (38:09):
What
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi. I'm Pierre D. Brown and I'm on the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my
work as an art therapist.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Playing with markers, clay, and stencils is something we may
recall fondly from our youth, but today dismiss as childish.
Art therapy, however, is a very legitimate and relaxing form
of therapy for all ages that challenges us to think
through our emotions by putting pen to paper to tell
us more. Today, I'm joined by Chicago based artist and
(01:44):
registered art therapists Pierra D. Brown. Since graduating with her
Masters from the School of the Art Institute, she's worked
both in communities, schools, and hospitals to provide clinical services
to people of all ages. In recent years, Pierra started
utilizing her social media to raise awareness on what art
therapy is and the benefits it has on mental health
(02:07):
and wellness. During our conversation, Piera and I discussed the
training needed to become an art therapist, how art therapy
can be used as an alternative or in supplement with
traditional talk therapy, and what art therapy can teach us
about shedding our perfectionist habits. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social
(02:28):
media using the hashtag TVG in session or join us
over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for
joining us today, Pierra, Thank.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You for having me. I'm so excited and nervous all
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Oh, it will be painless. I promise, I promise. So
tell me a little bit about how you got started
with art. What is your earliest memory of being an
art lover.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I've always loved art. I'm very like tactiles, always building stuff.
I was into like science kits, little crochet making bees,
through and through ninety childs. So I was like, I
want every craft I've seen. So I was making bracelets,
the little looms, all the things. So I've always been
into art doing art. I never had the thought that
I wanted to be like an artist or anything. I
(03:21):
was just like, I like doing it.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I got it. You know. As I'm thinking, it does
feel like we had a very different relationship to like
arts and crafts as children than I think like my
own children have now, like they do some kind of
like friendship bracelet knitting stuff. But I definitely feel like
we have more crafty kinds of things as children.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
No, we absolutely did. And I love bringing it back
to some of my younger patients or some of my
adults to be like, oh my god, I remember doing
this with it. I was like, yes, bring all the
nineties stuff back.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I love it. I love it. So tell me about
how that journey, like your initial interests in are then
transitioned to you becoming an art therapist. So what inspired
you to actually look into this as a career, Plath,
It was actually.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
A complete accident. I originally was going to get my
bachelors in psychology. I was going to double major education psychology,
but the education programs will to intend, so I like
psychology more and we're required to take like additional electives.
I took a ceramics course, so I was like, oh,
I did in high school, I'll do it again. And
it just so happened that my professor was like, you're
(04:23):
really good at this. What are you in school for?
And I was like, oh, psychology. So he was like,
have you heard of art therapy? I feel like he
slicked with try to get me into the art program,
but he needed, like to diversify it a little bit.
But it all worked out because I had never heard
of art therapy prior to I want to say it
was like the first semester of my junior year of
(04:44):
undergrad got it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah. I do feel like art therapy is one of
those specialties that people kind of find accidentally. Now hopefully
that changes after your interview, right, then people can be
more intentional about teaking it out as a path. But
I think most people often have a story like this right,
like that they find out a about it through Happens Stands.
So tell me, if somebody is looking for an art therapist,
what kinds of things should they be looking for? Like,
(05:07):
are there certain credentials that we should be aware of?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
There is So when you were going through the art
therapy program, you have to get a master's So starting off,
if you're working with someone, they have to have the
MA behind their name that they finish their master's program.
And following that you have the ability. Depending on the
state that you're in, you can either get certified. Illinois
(05:31):
does not have a certification. I'm actually just a registered
art therapist, but they prepare you through the program that
I went through to either go get your LCPC. You
can go that route and so you can have those credentials.
I skipped that route. I wanted to jump just straight
towards my registration. So you have ATR registered art therapists
and then you have ATRBC or certified in the future.
(05:54):
That is my goal. I just don't like taking tests.
It requires taking tests and I'm not a test girl,
but those are the credentials when you're looking for an
art therapist, like an official registered art therapist and not
just someone who, oh I like to do art and
I want to incorporate it with mental health. Those are
the credentials that you will look for.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Got it? So walk us through what an actual art
therapy session looks like, like how is art therapy actually
different from traditional talk therapy?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So I work in two spaces, clinical and a non clinical.
So I'll walk you through my clinical how working and
behavioral health hospital. And so when doing my art therapy,
I work with groups up to twenty patients and my
general groups, I will have like an identified art activity
that I'm going to do with the patients that kind
of touch on different goals that are amongst the general
(06:46):
treatment plan. And so I will start off with an
introduction about who I am, what I'm there for, what
we're going to be doing, and then I will present
them with the art materials and then they will go
through get their art materials, start the activity, and as
they're working, I will interact with the patients. It's a
lot of patients, so it's never just like a sit
down thing, but I will start them with the art activities.
(07:09):
Sometimes the art activity is very open. It's more for
a self care relaxation, being able to sit and calm
and quiet, and sometimes it has like a specific direction,
and as they're going through that, I will check in
with them how are they're feeling. I will ask them questions.
And in that space it's only forty five minutes, so
it's really really quick, and so I'm just trying to
(07:30):
get them to make the art as much as possible.
But as they're making art, I will ask the questions
about how they're feeling emotionally, things that are coming up
for them. In that space. As far as my non
clinical setting, there's a lot more time. I always tell
people whenever they want to work with me, I'm like,
it's an hour thirty minutes to two hours, so that
way they can make the art and then we can
(07:52):
have conversation in the middle of it, and then like
the last fifteen to twenty minutes, then we can engage
in a conversation about emotions that came up for them
while making the art, how it relates back to their
life or their past, whatever it is. In that setting,
there's more time allotted to the processing part of the
art making, and in comparison to a traditional therapist, I'm
(08:14):
just using the art materials, the art directives as a
tool to initiate some one of those thoughts, to spark
those like, oh, I haven't thought about it this way,
and it makes a little bit easier to process.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Got it. So it's interesting that you described the longer process,
like the hour and thirty minutes two hour session as
non clinical, because that sounds more clinical.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
To me in some ways.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Are you talking about it just in terms of like
the settings the hospital versus not in the hospital?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Is that what? Yes? No, it is so clinical me
working behavior health, I'm following and going by specific treatment plans.
I do documentation. Then my non clinical I'm working within
the community. There is no treatment plan. I'm not doing
documentation at the end. But it has the same premise.
It's just it's it's very like it's a little like baselines,
little self care for the non clinical stuff. Some things
(09:04):
can come up, they might be like triggering or some
experiences that they have, but in the non clinical setting,
we can briefly touch on that and then I can
refer them to someone else versus like it coming back
to me that kind of like.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Help that is helpful. So I'm curious how are you choosing,
like what kinds of art activities your clients and your
patients are doing, and what is the purpose? So like
why might you choose one art activity versus another, and
like why are you even using art?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Okay, I will break it down because I work with
like adults, pediatric and adolescents. So for my adults, I'm
really big in exposure exposing my patients to art materials
because a lot of the patients I work with are
brown and black and under service areas, so a lot
of the time they have artists taken out of schools
and sometimes they don't get that ability to explore art
(09:55):
because a lot of the adults in their mindset arts
for kids. So it's more like an exposed your things.
So I will bring them like a range of art materials.
And within the hospital setting, we are limited to what
we can use. So in my little like little create
that I have to carry, my main things that I
like to bring are markers, oil, pastels, crayons. I have
some stensiles I bring like a folder of like puzzles,
(10:17):
whereas arch just amazes, things that I'm able to like
see visually, like I'm missing some or I can count
I have, like watercolor paints, things that I know, I
can count, I can keep track of because in that space,
some of the patients they're there for specific needs and
they can't be around or they can't have certain materials.
But for the adults, it's just more exposure. I want
(10:38):
to expose them to different art materials, let them explore,
let them just be able to like, I really like this.
I wouldn't have thought to like use oil pastels. I
like how it feels. I like the messiness, or I
used to pay when I was younger. I want to
get back into it. So for my adults, it's just
more bringing them to what they most likely aren't going
to be in contact with in their day to day.
(10:59):
From my adolescents, it ranges so if I'm talking with
my nursing stuff and they say, hey, miss p they've
been struggling with let's say, oh, relationships, and I'm like, okay,
you know, we might have a conversation about relationships and dating,
and I might create an art activity around relationships, identifying
family relationships, romantic friendships, and we'll go from there. And
(11:21):
for my peds, it's always about working as a group,
having to share, transitioning, so going from one spot to
another spot, a little bit of like everything because they're
younger and I want to make sure I like touch
on a lot of things. But when I'm creating the
art activity, I just kind of go day to day,
like I relate today. Can they handle this? Have they
(11:42):
been very aggressive? Can I bring the paints? No, they're
a little too opposed to if I won't bring the paints.
And then as far as my non clinical community stuff,
I usually talk with the organizations and they let me
know what topics that they have to address, and I'm like,
all right, cool, and then from there I'll create a topic,
find art active, and direct it back to the topic
that they want.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Got it. So I had a chance to take an
art therapy elective in grad school, and I'm remembering two
distinct experiences in that class. So one the assignment was
something like to visualize a rose bush and like then
draw it. And I remember really struggling with that because
I had never seen a rose bush like I had
(12:23):
seen like roses at Kroger or you know, like but
I don't think I had ever seen a rose bush,
and so it really was difficult for me to complete
this exercise. And I would imagine like thinking through like
the cultural competence of assigning certain kinds of assignments. Can
you talk about like how you think through like what's
appropriate and you already talked about wanting to expose them
(12:45):
to as many like materials as possible. Can you talk
through like the cultural pieces of why you're choosing certain
assignments for your clients.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Of course, so speaking of like the rose bush activity,
I do have an activity whereas like imagine yourself as
a tree, and we all have a very generic view
of a tree. So I will come prepared with examples
of trees and allow them to explore the variety because
I know they, Like I said, I worked with brown
and black individuals and underserved spaces, and especially in Chicago,
(13:14):
a lot of our patients they don't leave their communities.
Cargo's very segregated, so they don't leave their communities. So
I'm always aware, Okay, will they have some sort of
awareness of what different trees look like? No, I'm going
to provide them with this sort of aid. Sometimes as
far as art materials. I know a lot of the
(13:35):
time no one has ever used oil pastels, but I
will take the time and if they're interested and they're like,
you know, miss P, what is this, I'm like, Oh,
they're oil pastels. Let me show you how you can
use them. I always am prepared to like show them
how to use cerve materials because I know they don't
have that experience, especially my adolescents and my peeds. They're
taking art out of schools, so sometimes they're like, I
(13:57):
want to use those you know, WATERCOLORSK cool? Miss P.
Can you show me how? Yes, I can or my
little kids to work on their fine motor skills working
with stencils. Miss P, I can't do this. I'm going
to show you how. I'm going to walk you through it.
It's taking things that they should traditionally be learning in school,
but bringing it into a space where they're able to
(14:18):
have that opportunity to learn those skills.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Got it? And can you talk about you know, so
you said they do the assignment and then like you're
asking them questions, So what kinds of questions might you
be asking based on whatever the art project was?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You know what? Honestly, it depends on what I'm observing.
So if I'm observing someone who's having a hard time,
like let's say the road situation, I'm like break down
and be like, hey, I noticed you're struggling. What's going
on with you? I've never seen a rose bush before?
And I'm like, really, okay, we'll think of a basic
bush and you know, we'll break it down that way,
and it's just kind of like, why you know, why
haven't you seen like a rose bush? Oh, I live
(14:54):
in apartments, we don't see that, Or how's that experience
for you? And it starts from there and it just
goes into like a guided conversation led by the patients,
but it's all of what I'm observing. If I notice
something in their artwork, I will address what's in their artwork,
and I'll have them try their best to explain like
what they drew or how they came up with this idea.
Today I had like one little kid. He was like
(15:16):
drawing a picture and I'm like, oh, who is that.
That's our little sister. Oh how old your little sister?
She's twelve. I'm like, wait a minute, you sure she's little?
And she's like, wait, you do it's like big sister,
I'm like, okay, you know, are you guys close? Yeah,
this is the end. It just goes from there. And
so I'm like observing what they're working on and then
going off of what they're giving me, and then it
can go further and sometimes they'll ask me questions, They'll
(15:38):
come up with questions, and then we'll engage in conversations
about that. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, I mean, and it really does speak to the
idea that like, it isn't so much about whatever the
art project is you've assigned, right, It's really about the
deeper meaning and what is the motivation. And I think
the other thing with like art therapy and like other
kinds of non traditional kind of talk therapy, is that
you may be able to to get to a concern
or something that it would have taken you much longer
(16:04):
to get to in talk therapy, like art therapy, it
feels like dismantles a little bit. Can you talk a
little bit about how you've seen our therapy be used
and how it may be useful and kind of disarming
in some ways and kind of giving you more space
to have maybe more difficult conversations.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Oh. Absolutely, it definitely breaks that area. So when I
work with adults, sometimes they can come in my group
super super like upset and mad. They've had a hard day,
they haven't talked to their therapists or their doctor, and
they're just like, I just want to sit here. And
I'm like, you could sit there and I'll pull out
some orgony and I'll start making orgon me and they
(16:39):
sit and there like huh and they start to like
relax and chill out a little bit. I'm like, oh,
you want to learn, and they're like no, no, no, no no,
I just want to watch. And I'm like okay, and
then then they'll start looking to peak and I'm like,
let me make you something and they're like yeah, yeah,
you can make me something though, like and it's it's
such a great way to like, even if they're not
engaging in the art activity, it definitely can and like,
(17:00):
just Okay, it's not so bad. This is nice to
watch someone being creative. It's nice to be in a
space that's very calming and relaxing with some of my adolescents.
Some of them, like I said, maybe having a tough day.
They don't know who I am, and when I come
into the spaces. I'm very strict, not like super super strict,
but like, this is what we're doing, this is how
(17:21):
we're doing it because I want the space to be chill.
We only have forty five minutes. So some of them like, oh,
who are you? And I'm just like, listen, I didn't
give you no attitude, don't give me attitude. And then
from there they be like okay. And then we do
on art together and they see something cool and they'd
be like, oh, Okay. Miss PA's not so bad because
I like how she's talking to everyone else in the space,
(17:41):
and so I can also talk to her as well.
I've built many a relationships that started off super rocky
that turned to just missp Oh my gosh, I love you,
and it's just like I love your groups. It's so calm.
I needed this, And so in the hospital setting, it
definitely is really helpful to break that just I'm scared
to be here, I'm angry to be here, or I'm
very nervous. I don't know what I'm getting into.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. So
you said you've worked with a variety of different clients.
So Pedes adolescents and adults. Can you give us a
breakdown of, like how often you're working with each of
(18:25):
those kind of demographics?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Monday through Friday, every day.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
With all all those groups. So you see adults and I.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Do three to four groups today, yes, and so one
group I be peds, one group might be adolescents. So yes,
Monday through Friday. I see those groups. They get to
know me very very well.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Got it. And that's why you're saying, like, oh, I
don't want to be here, because of course, as a
part of them being in the hospital, sometimes these groups
are mandated, right, a part of the treatment. Got it?
Got it? Okay? Okay, So how long are you typically
working with them? Like is the group kind of time?
And in like okay, this is the twelve week group
or can you give us a breakdown of how that works.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So we have a set schedule in my expressive therapy
department and we see them, like I said, Monday through Friday.
It's all dependent on when the individual discharges, but the
groups run regularly unless there's some sort of change. And
like I have mentioned previously, the groups are only forty
five minutes, and so it's just when they are discharging,
(19:25):
that's when they'll be done seeing us. But they will
either see myself or another expressive therapists or like another
art therapist or another WREC therapist from my department, and
just each day we stay on the schedule.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Got it, got it? And of course you work in
it sounds like hospital settings where we know our therapists
work maybe in private practice or in other places. For
somebody who may be enjoying the conversation, how might they
decide whether our therapy is going to be maybe a
good fit for them or their child.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I always say if your child has an interest in art,
it's a good route to go if they already have
an interest in art, because for some people, if they're
not really interested in are they're a little hesitant. Also,
if they've tried traditional therapy and there is no growth,
I would recommend you know, like, hey, try art therapy,
try music therapy, especially for children, that those kind of
(20:17):
avenues help the process of therapy be a little smoother.
And it's like it doesn't feel like therapy feels like
something fun or interesting that they're going to be exploring.
Until it doesn't become fun and interesting. It's like, oh,
we're talking about this today. Oh man, But it is
a good avenue if traditional therapy isn't working for them.
And I know some individuals who do traditional therapy and
(20:40):
an expressive therapy in tandem because you get a little
bit of something from both the spaces.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Got it. So what if I'm considering art therapy but
I don't really feel like I'm a good drawer, like
I'm not super artsy, or maybe my kid is not
what I also benefit from art therapy if I'm not
like a good artist.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Oh, listen, I always tell them, I'm I'm an art teacher.
I'm an art therapist. You're not getting a grade. You
are Listen. You come and you create at whatever level
you're trying to create at all my patients are like
I don't know how to do or I was like,
I'm not giving you a grade. Just come at whatever
creative level you're at, and it is appreciated. On my end,
I love effort. I love that you tried. I appreciate
(21:20):
that you tried, and if you like it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah. I would imagine this is also a great space
to kind of talk through like perfectionistic kinds of tendencies,
right that need to think that there's like only one
way to do an art kind of thing. Can you
say a little bit about how therapy can help with
some of.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
That who when you're working with artists, like full fledged artists,
that perfectionism really is the thing that they struggle with
the most. And so I always encourage them. When I'm
working with artists who are perfectionists, I come to them
from an artist level and say, Okay, you're not here
(21:55):
to be an artist, You're here for therapy. You just
have an additional gift that helps with that. And I
always kind of like encourage them to use it as
like a way to improve their artistic ability. Put it
in that realm. If I'm working with someone who is
an artist, and I always say, try a different material
that you haven't tried before. This is your opportunity to
practice with it. And when you practice with it, you
(22:17):
will get better. And then they'd be like, I didn't
think about that, because I always want to stay with
where they're comfortable, like, oh, I love painting them drying.
Try something different that puts you out there, and then
if you don't like it, then go back to what
you're safe. Is. If they are not experiencing or I say,
have you done this before? Well, no, I said, then
why would you expect to be good at it the
first time. It's going to take practice the same way
(22:37):
that we were learning how to walk when we were younger.
We weren't perfect. We was wild and looking like a
little loose creatures out in the world. And so that's
what I try to instill in them. And I always say,
don't beat yourself up about it, and then if they
want to redo it, they can redo it.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So what actually happens to the art projects are the
assignments that happen as a part of art therapy session,
like do you keep them? Does the client keep them?
What happens with them?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, they keep them unless they want to gifted to me,
my little kids, little like I've made this for you.
I'm like, thank you so much, and listen, I have
a lot of art that's in my little cubicle and
some of them may be going into trash. I'm not
gonna lie about it. And I'm like, yeah, it's still
in my office. But generally I say, it's your art.
I don't you know, unless you want to gifted to me,
it's your art. You do what you want to do.
(23:21):
So I've seen patients like, oh, okay, I'm done and
they throw it away. It's not hurting my feeling because
it's not, like I said, I'm not a teacher and
I don't have an attachment to it. And if you did,
and you just want to do it in the moment,
you want to throw it away, that's what you want
to do with your artists and your possession.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Is there ever a time I can imagine this has happened,
or maybe they are trying to express something that's a
little bit more difficult. How are you having conversations with
them to then maybe talk with parents or other people
in their lives maybe about the art project. Is that
a part of the work.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Too, Because they are inpatient, I don't get that processing
outside of the space. But if there is something that
has reference to like self harm, I will have a
conversation with them and I will like ask them like independently, like, hey,
I noticed we have a lot of this happening in
your artwork. What kind of thoughts are we going through?
Are we feeling safe? And then they'll say yes, they'll
(24:10):
say no, and then I'll say, okay, do you want
me to notify the nursing staff and then they'll be
like yeah, and then we'll go from there. And so
it would be the nursing staff and the other staff
on the units that depending on like how aggressive or
shocking it is, or like some of the conversations they're
having about their artwork that I will direct to them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Got it. Let's say somebody's enjoying our conversation and they're
thinking like, oh, I might want to try this out.
So maybe resources are limited or there is not an
art therapist in their area to work with. What kinds
of strategies or exercises made you suggest for somebody who
maybe wants to dabble in this a little bit, but
not necessarily like sign up for our therapy at this
point of course.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So there are actually quite a few. Social media is
a really great place to look for art therapy because
there's quite a few mutual art therapists that I do
follow up on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, but some
really safe ones. My favorite one that I love to
like introduce to people. It's so simple, you just kind
of go, you trace your hand and then with this activity,
(25:14):
I like to sometimes work on confidence in each of
the fingers. You're going to identify five positive things about
yourself and you get super creative designed like the inside
of the hand on the outside of the hand. A
lot of people are just like, oh, coloring books are
a great start for you if you need something super
super structured. It's the safe place that everyone goes. So
if you want to start that route and gravitate from
(25:35):
coloring books to just openly being creative, creating an art
journal and just utilizing different materials and just creating based
off your emotions, you can. So starting with coloring books
if you are not privy to doing art, starting with
their as you little safe structured space, and then navigating
trying different materials and doing things from there. But YouTube, Instagram, TikTok,
(25:59):
looking for different therapists who put our activities out there.
It's a great way to go more.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
From our conversation after the break. The other memory I
have from that art therapy class was we were required
to make I don't think it was paper mache, but
some kind of like tacky clay something where we made
(26:27):
a mask of our faces and then we had to
decorate the mask. And so the conversation part of it
was like, what was the experience like making the mask?
And then also like what meaning is attached to the
way that you decorated the mask, which I think could
be a pretty powerful conversation and an exercise for black women,
right because we talk all about the mask we wear,
(26:48):
and so to have a physical representation of a mask,
I think could be a really cool exercise as well.
Have you done anything like that with clients?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I have. I do the inner and outer self, so
that I do with my adolescence because a lot of
them are perceived one way, and like I had mentioned,
they are bron and black, and so for my black girls,
how they're perceived on the outward does not reflect how
they're viewed inner. So I love that activity because it
breaks down what they have taken from what people have
(27:18):
said that's stuck to their outer self and how they
have internalized that. So I definitely have done that activity.
We didn't physically make a mask. We do a pay
per form just because like I said, certain materials are
not allowed, but that processing and how they well, my
mama said, I'm a hoe, so I guess it will
be a hoe And it's just like what do you
actually think you know you're that and they're like, no,
(27:40):
I don't feel that way. It's just you know, people
say it or I'm dumb, I'm stupid, and it's just like,
are you just saying that because other people have said it? Well, yeah,
well how do you really feel? I actually feel like
I'm kind of smart. I love science, and they start
this whole thing about how they actually feel. It's just
how they're acting based off of that. So I've definitely
done that activity and it is a very hard one.
Certain activities that I don't like to put out there
(28:03):
into the space because it does open up certain wounds
that if you do not have a trained or license
art therapists or therapist there to help you process it,
it can re trigger some things internally. And so when
people are like, I want to do an art therapy activity,
I'm like, what's something that is safe that is not
(28:24):
going to retraumatize you or make you have these specific
thoughts that you can't close. And so when people say
they want to do that, I'm just like, I'm hesitant
because you have no one there to support you through this,
because it's a journey when you do specific things like.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
That, right, right, Yeah, And I think some of these
conversations around like social media and even sharing activities like that,
is that so much of our training is designed to
like look out for those kinds of things, right, and
so in a non trained person's eyes, it looks like, oh,
just a cool, fun activity, let's just do this, as
opposed to what kinds of things can this kind of
(29:01):
activity open up? So I appreciate you sharing that if
you can also talk about, like why you think our
therapy might be particularly helpful for black women and girls
as opposed to other.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Groups who because it allows them to be soft and vulnerable.
When I always when working with black women organizations and
I say, this is all about you. You're not worried
about your partner, your kids, and you have the ability
(29:32):
to make mistakes and you can be as creative, as sweet,
as cute as you want to be, Versus that I
got to worry about everybody else. I got to be
on guard. I gotta do this, I gotta do that,
And so our therapy is so good with that. And
also it teaches people to relax because I hear it
all the time. It's just like I never get an
opportunity to relax. So even if the directive it might
(29:54):
be a little difficult. The creating process allows them to
just relax and just this is nice. I could just
focus on me and my own thoughts and not everyone else.
It just allows you to be really soft, because when
I'm with my patients, I'd be like.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Oh nice man, nice nice. So you also you've mentioned
like how you share some of this stuff on social media.
Can you talk a little bit about how you balance,
like what is the balance between you kind of working
as an art therapist and also now a content creator
sharing some of this who.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
I've slow down a lot. So I was talking to
my friend and he's like, when did you get started?
And I was like, accidentally, and I had did like
a video and it was like what is your name?
Where you signed? What is your job? And then everyone's like,
I got art therapy. And then it was during COVID,
so everyone was like, oh, yeah, this is great. I
was like I got time. Yeah. Then life happened and
(30:46):
so I took about two months off and then I
was like, okay, I just I want to go slow.
So right now I'm getting back into Okay, I want
to be creative. I want to put more out there.
On social media. I want to navigate, so a lot
of scheduling, a lot of planning, a lot of taking
time to Okay, I know I have to make content,
(31:08):
but I want to relax today, so giving myself that
break when I need it. I recently transitioned to part
time because I was getting a little burned out, so
that has also helped me do the content creating portion
of it. But a lot of planning, a lot of scheduling.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And with that, how are you also finding time to
stay connected to like art pursuits, like those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Everyone to ask me this question, and I don't really
make art like that. I think the art for me
is the content creating part. I'm creative whenever it hits me.
I have like friends who when I first moved to Chicago,
I did pursue being a painter actively, and they're like, Okay,
where are the shows? When are you doing it? And
I'm just like, I'm not really feeling it right now.
(31:50):
I've slowly like done a little bit here and there,
But I just create when I want to create. It's
not my go to as far as like my personal
self care. Everyone assumes that's my for self care. Because
I'm urt therapist. I'm like, no, I like to move.
I'm a little adhd girly.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
So got it? Got it? And who are some of
your favorite artists or your favorite art pieces?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I enjoy boss Yacht. There's this German artist I can't
think of his name, but he makes creepy, grotesque portraits
of people. And that's where I navigated my art too,
just more abstracted portraits. I don't mind portraits. I'm not
gonna lie to you. I don't know names. I just
know visuals.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So I'm curious. Pierre. Is art therapy something that's typically
covered by insurance?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, actually it is. I know through like the hospital setting.
It is required for our patients to get expressive therapy,
which includes our therapy. And because our therapy is in
a lot of majority hospital spaces, yes, it is covered
by insurance. So when anyone is asking me how do
I locate an art therapist, I'm like, number one, if
you have insurance, look through your insurance because we are
(33:00):
through that.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Got it. That's good to know. So you've talked several
times about like art being taken out of schools. I'm
wondering if you have any thoughts or hopes for how
art and art therapy can be reintegrated into schools.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So after I graduated in twenty sixteen with my master's,
I actually did two years in an elementary school and
art was led by a history teacher, and so she
would come to me for ideas and I'll go like, oh,
so I as the art therapist, would do art therapy
with the kids they assigned me. But then I also
(33:35):
worked with Columbia College and they're after school program providing
an art therapy program. So I definitely can see that
there are organizations that go into schools and that can
provide art, and when you're working with art therapists, there's
additional benefits to that. So when I had did it,
you know, I was like, all right, I'm going to
(33:55):
work with the little kids because I know they don't
get art like that. We're going to do things for
fine motors, tracing, cutting, all of those things. For my
bigger kids, we're gonna work on sculptural things that induce
frustration and managing that. So that was like a nice
way to implement that working with programs that provide after school.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
I'm wondering, do you have a preference in terms of
age group, Like, is there a favorite group of clients
that you work with.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I love second graders and then I love the sixth
of the eighth grade. Why because they got little attitudes
and it's so fun because there's all little personalities. It's
just like they actually are like who they're going to be.
That's why I like second grade and then sixth of
the eighth grade. Those are like the very who it's
the very experimental years and then they're trying to figure
(34:42):
out who they are, and so I like being in
the space to provide them with the support and the
person that can go to if they have questions. Working
at the elementary school, that was my favorite group because
they were always missed p I have a question about this.
I'm like, did you ask your mom? Is your mom?
And they're like she won't answer it. I'm like, Okay,
here we go. And it's just I like that age
(35:02):
because they have so many questions and they just are
trying to be young adults and try to navigate that space,
and I'm just like I want to be there to
support them on that journey.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I love it. I love it so even outside of
like an art therapy setting. What kinds of questions can
we be asking ourselves as we are pursuing creative kinds
of things to stay connected to, like our feelings and
emotions as we are exploring creative pursuits.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Honestly, just how am I feeling doing this? That's like
the number one why am I getting mad? And then
the number one thing I also like I took from
undergrad and I bring it to my patients when they're
working on our project. If you're starting to feel yourself
get frustrated, give yourself a break and acknowledge that, Okay,
I'm frustrated right now, I need to break come back
(35:50):
to it with fresh eyes. And then sometimes just do
you actually want to be like using whatever it is
that you're used? Do you want to be using there?
Do you want to use something else? And now are
you forcing yourself to use this? Because sometimes I'd be like,
M I want to use markers, and I'm like, I
don't want to use markers right now, because sometimes you
just think I'm gonna use markers. It's just like I
dont want to use markers. I want to be a
little more tactile, Like what do you need also do
(36:12):
like a physical body check. I want to work with Clay,
I want to do something with my hands. So just
asking yourself though, like how am I feeling? Do I
want to use this material? Do I need to break?
Do I feel done? Like? Am I happy with it?
Am I content? Or do I want to remove it
out my space?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Very helpful questions. Where can we stay connected with you? Pierre?
What is your website as well as any social media
handles like you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
On Instagram you can find me at p erad dot
b and that's p I E R R A D
as a dog dot b as in boy and that's
on Instagram. And then on TikTok you can find me
at Pierra dB. It's the same thing, just a little
dot that's there.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Got it will be short. Include all of that in
the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some
time with us today. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
No problem, This was so nice. I liked it.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Thank you. I'm so glad Piera was able to join
us and share her expertise today, So learn more about
her and the work she's doing. Be sure to visit
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com Slash
Session three fifty three, and don't forget to text two
of your girls right now and tell them to check
out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in
(37:28):
your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue
digging into this topic or just be in community with
other sisters, come on over and join us in the
sister Circle. It's our cozy corn of the Internet designed
just for black women. You can join us at community
dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced
(37:50):
by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. Look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take it care
Speaker 2 (38:09):
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.