March 5, 2025 • 50 mins
How is Black girlhood defined these days? As we see fewer depictions of Black girls in the media, limited spaces for them to shop, and continuing adultification bias, it seems more difficult than ever to answer this question. Joining me to discuss the ways Black girlhood is defined is Dr. Lauren Mims, an assistant professor at NYU's Steinhardt School. Her research focuses on how sociocultural stressors impact Black children's development, and identifying strengths that can buffer the negative effects of bias and discrimination. She also served as Assistant Director of the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans during the Obama Administration. During our conversation we discuss girlhood and womanhood through education, media representation, psychology, and even TikTok.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Resources & Announcements
Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast.
Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals.
Where to Find Dr. Mims
Instagram: @DrLaurenMims
Stay Connected
Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory.
Take the info from the podcast to the next level by joining us in the Therapy for Black Girls Sister Circle community.therapyforblackgirls.com
Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop.
The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession.
Make sure to follow us on social media:
Twitter: @therapy4bgirls
Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls
Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls
Our Production Team
Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard
Senior Producer: Ellice Ellis
Producer: Tyree Rush
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four oh one of the
Theory for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation afterword from our sponsors. When Kashawn Thompson coined the
term black girl magic in twenty thirteen, it sparked a
(01:19):
movement that celebrated black women, girls, and felms their resilience,
beauty and power. And as amazing as the movement has been,
twelve years later, we find ourselves in an era of
blackfam representation that still struggles in its delineation of black
women from black girls, as the media examples dwindle in
culture shifts, we hear Therapy for Black Girls dare to
(01:40):
ask what even is black girlhood? Joining me for this
conversation is doctor Lauren Mimes, an assistant professor at NYU
Steinhardt School. Her research focuses on how sociocultural stressors impact
black children's development and identifying strengths that can buffer the
negative effects of bias and discrimination. She also served as
(02:01):
an assistant director of the White House Initiative on Educational
Excellence for African Americans during the Obama administration, exploring girlhood
and womanhood through education, media representation, psychology, and somehow even TikTok.
Doctor Mims helps us better contextualize not only what black
girlhood is, but how to empower young girls in helping
us define it. This conversation is a continuation of our
(02:24):
reflection on the past, present, in future of Black girlhood
and womanhood in celebration of four hundred episodes of Therapy
for Black Girls. Very excited for you to hear this conversation.
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for
(02:49):
joining us today, doctor Mims.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh, I'm so excited.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I am a doctor, Joey Fan So I'm so excited
for us to get to talk.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, I am too. So can you start by telling
us a little bit about your background and what you
do as a psychologist?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah? Absolutely, so.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I'm currently a professor of developmental psychology. I started in
the field of developmental psychology because I felt like there
was no one who was really focused and immersed in
thinking about from the moment a black child wakes up
to the moment they go to bed, what are the places,
the spaces, the relationships that either help or hinder their ability.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
To be their best selves?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And so I really wanted to take this kind of
whole child approached understanding how to best support children's development.
So I started off as an undergrad at the University
of Virginia. I remember my textbooks. We had culture Week
and that was when we learned about non white children.
And I remember at the other end of my week,
(03:52):
I would go to African American studies classes, and I
remember I was so wrapped up and learning about the
brilliance of black Americans throughout time, and I thought, Huh,
we really need to bridge these two and thinking about
Black children's development and how we have this amazing history
of surviving and thriving, and how can we ensure take
(04:14):
what we know about black history and black people's lives
and use that to really transform the power and the
possibilities and the potential for Black children. And so I
have been working to think about how to create pathways
to thriving for Black children and their families.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And that's my journey. I took a small.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Leave of absence during my PhD to serve as assistant
director of the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for
African Americans during the Obama administration, which was amazing. I
was able to really think about when we center black
children's brilliance in the educational settings, then really looking and
thinking about what do they need. And one of the
(04:59):
things that we did then was bring black children into
the space and ask Black children what do they need
to be supported in school spaces and then work with
administrators and policymakers to think about how to we enact
those policies with that center black children's needs.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And so that has been where I am.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
And now this kind of Virginia girl is here in
a big New York city, really focusing on thinking about
black children's excellence.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I love that. Thank you for that, doctor Miams. So
I'm curious to hear what kinds of things did the
children identify when you ask them, like, what kinds of
things do you need to be supported?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
I love that question. I think sometimes those adults we think, oh,
more pizza parties, or we want to have restars is longer.
But they were really talking a lot about supports kind
of having their basic needs met, and so talking about
things we want to walk down the hallway and feel
like our bodies are not policed, particularly for black girls.
(05:59):
And I remember one girl said when she would walk
down the hallway the way that she said, my.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Hip swish naturally back and.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Forth, and people would think that I had an attitude,
and they would say, where are you going with all
of that attitude?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
What are you doing?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And she really wanted teachers to understand black girls and
the unique experiences that they bring into the space, from
the way that they walk, the way that they talk,
the way that they engage in the classroom, so that
she didn't feel like she had to be someone else
or that she was going to walk down the hallway
to the bathroom and know that she would be stopped
(06:35):
by every teacher who thought that she was doing something wrong,
that she didn't have a pass. And so a lot
of it was around really thinking about discipline conversation, so
kind of rethinking discipline in those policies as well as
some of them said that there were not bathrooms doors
in the bathrooms, and that their water fountains weren't working.
They were really worried about nutritious access to meals. They said,
(06:59):
you know, the pizza is really greasy. I would love
for the pizza to change. And so I think that
a lot of what they wanted echoes a lot of
the things that we want for children, which we were
talking to elementary and middle school children, and so I
think when we give them the platform, they're really echoing
some of the things that the hopes and goals and
not just these kind of small fun things. But like
(07:21):
I will speak for them, they probably would want more recess.
They don't want to get rid of pizza altogether. But
a lot of the things they were talking about is
what does it mean to be a black student in
this school? Knowing that I may experience bias and discrimination
just for being me, and I don't want that. I
want teachers to see me and to affirm who I
(07:42):
am in this space.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Thank you so much for sharing that, and I think
you have given us like a very poignant example. Then
the reason why I really wanted to have this conversation
about black girlhood. So the example that you shared about
the little girl kind of walking through the hallway and
her hip swishing, and how adults often make one interpretation
of things that kids do that is not at all
accurate with the reality of what's happening and is often
(08:05):
a misinterpretation with black girls, right, Like there's often these
conduct or attitude lenses put on their behavior that is
not at all accurate. Can you talk a little bit
about like how that happens and like the impact that
has on girls.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So, I think one of the biggest studies that I
think a lot is about Georgetown, So the Center on
Gender Justice and Opportunity. They released the study a couple
of years ago that introduced this topic of adultification bias
against black girls. And so when they were in that study,
they found that among those that they surveyed, adults actually
perceived black girls to be less innocent, less needing of protection,
(08:44):
less needing of nurturing, and that they were more they
were seen more adult like than their peers. And this
started as young as five, and so I think I
also think a lot about There was a news story
in the New York Times about a young little girl
and she was giggling. She was giggling and having a
great time in class, and she was sent to the
nurse's office and she was actually searched for contraband because
(09:08):
her joy. They thought her joy must have come from
some type of drug. But I think for me, giggling
is a core part of children's experiences. But adultification bias
really takes that away from Black girls because at that
point they were seen as kind of miniature black women.
So then this is not miniature black women. It's from
(09:31):
a negative perception because all black women giggle as well,
the idea that they must be knowledgeable about illicit drugs
and they must be engaging in illicit drugs, and that's
why we see this giggling instead of seeing black girls
as Black girls as these kind of like learning, developing,
thriving little girls that need support, valued to be valued,
(09:56):
and kind of being loved and all the ways that
we want children to be, And so adultification bias really
shapes how adults see children to the point where I
just think a lot about the hip switching and the giggling,
and that you could police giggling and think that that
joy is related to something like engaging in enlictit drug
(10:18):
activity in elementary school mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And I know that your work touches on this, and
there are so many other like brilliant researchers who are
doing a lot around the adultification of black girls right
and really helping educators, I think especially to look at
like how this is impacting the way they are disciplining
and teaching. Can you tell us a little bit about
some of those practices and what educators and maybe other
adults need to know about black girls.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I think the.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
First thing is to really think about that really positive.
When you think of black girls, what do you think of?
And often I think the first intervention I always say
is self reflection. So how do I see the students
in my classrooms, particular the black girls. Am I seeing
them from what we call kind of an axiom of criminality?
(11:05):
And so when am I looking at black girls in
the classroom when a pen drops is the first thing
I do look over at the black students. And so
a lot of research has found I gays, when you
prime teachers to say kind of what's wrong in the classroom,
they tend to stare more at black children than they
do of children of other races. And so pausing and
(11:25):
thinking what was the last interaction that I had with
the black girl in my classroom? Was it related to discipline?
Was it related to talking about off task behavior? When
did I kind of celebrate and affirm them? And I
think even thinking about engaging in kind of that process
of awareness and thinking about how am I showing up
(11:47):
for the black girls in my classroom and also kicking
it one step further and really thinking about doing an inventory.
What does my classroom library look like? Where are black
girls represented? When are we talking about black Americans? So
some of my research has talked about in middle school,
some of the youth said when I asked them about
where do you learn about at race and where do
you learn about being African American? They said history class,
(12:09):
and it's around slaves and they said whips and chains.
That's the imagery that they see of black Americans in
the school environment, and so I think engaging in practices
where we're really taking an inventory of the ways that
we are treating and nurturing black girls in our classroom
as well as thinking about how we are representing black girlhood,
(12:30):
I think is a good first step that all teachers
can engage in, and it's something that is incredibly meaningful.
So I remember when the first time that I read
a black girl book in school, it was Warriors Don't
Cry by Melba Patillobile's and it was about school integration,
and that was so meaningful to me to read in
(12:51):
class and to have everybody have to read that book
and to read about a black girl's experience about how
she wants to achieve academically but how difficult it is
because of the threats that she has, and she talks
to her grandmother encourages her to be her best self.
And I just remember reading that as a required reading
(13:14):
was incredibly meaningful to me because that was the first
time I think that I had seen my black girlhood
reflected as something that was important to history.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And so I think that those are really.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Important, not just kind of representation in the number of
books you have, but that is one step further and
really thinking that was required reading and also being really
really careful during those interactions to shut down any instances
of bias or you know, giving people the language to
have these conversations, providing spaces for you to have but
(13:48):
really being careful. You also don't want to traumatize young
folks where they then have to hear about that's wrong
with Melba or these kind of stereotyped languages used in
the conversation. And so I think it's important too, but
it can be really powerful. So I just remember my
peers really talking about how brave she was and how
they didn't know that these things were happening, and that
(14:09):
was really I think that was meaningful for me to
see that other people were engaging in the history of
the civil rights movement from the lens of a black girl.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
That was incredibly powerful when I was younger. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So I have so many thoughts swirling, Doctor Miams. One
of them is like, what is even rubric may not
be the best word, but like, what are we even
talking about when we are talking about black girlhood? So
I'm thinking about like my own experience as a little
black girl, right I'm thinking about hand games and jump
rope and like playing outside with friends and stuff, and
(14:45):
it feels like girlhood and just childrenhood looks very different
these days, I think, especially in the advent of technology.
And I know that there are lots of initiatives to
keep kids outside and like make sure that they are
able to kind of still be kids, but it feels
like there's a fight for that to happen, right, I
mean that so much is kind of along the backdrop
of technology. So we're talking about like black girlhood, Like,
(15:08):
what does that even look like in twenty twenty five?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
What does black girlhood look like in twenty twenty five?
I would say the first answer is to ask black girls.
I think so often, as black adults, black women, we
sometimes either you know. I love the idea that we
don't know. I think that that is an important space
(15:33):
for us to come into and because I think that
when we were black girls, our experience is different than
black girls today, and so so much of my research
is asking those kind of basic questions. So tell me
about what your day is like, tell me about the
things that you love, tell me about the things that
you dislike. And I have learned so much about skincare
(15:57):
is bigger. But also so I think that when we
think about black girlhood, I've been thinking a lot about
how it is not just adultification bias and the fact
that we see them as older. I also think that
because of the advantage of technology, they're engaging in things
(16:19):
that maybe we weren't thinking about or engaging in when
we were that age. So I think that handgames are
still wonderful and still fun. But I also think that
when I talk to them, they're also talking about how
do they cope with seeing the videos of the murder
of George Floyd and thinking about young girls are kind
(16:42):
of contending with that, as well as seeing ads of
girls who are missing, while they're also engaging on social media,
And so I think that their childhood is different than
ours in the fact that we have this information.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Ecosystem that is reaching them.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
At ages that are younger than I think when we
started really thinking about some of the things that were occurring.
And so I think that black girlhood is giggling, it's joy,
it's scissorhood, but it is also I think focusing on
learning how to cope with really difficult things that are
(17:30):
happening to themselves or to the world, and I think
that that's become an even bigger part of black girls' journeys.
A lot of the girls I talk to when I
ask them kind of what is it like growing up
as a black girl, we are currently asking young folks
to answer the question being a black youth today means,
(17:51):
and then just opening it to ask the first thing
that comes to mind, and it's difficult. We hear things
like it's tough, it's scary, it's exhaust stay, it's a lot,
and those are the first things that they are bringing up.
And so I think that what I don't want to
do is infantilize black girls and think that they're not
(18:14):
little women. But they also are not as insulated from
the societal ills as we may have seen in other
time periods.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I don't remember.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
When I was younger, I wanted we didn't see these
viral videos of police brutality. We would watch the news,
but the news was something that you could turn off.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
When you use the internet. The internet tied up with
the phone, so you weren't on the internet that long.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
There were kind of safeguards that were around, and so
I think where we see a lot of Black youth
report that they are online almost constantly or most a
lot of the day, And so I think that that
you see kind of an experience where you are walking
through the world while also seeing the world move outside
(19:07):
of your kind of your smaller ecosystem, broader than your neighborhood, broader.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Than your school, broader than your peers.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
You can see other people you've never met before, and
I think that that can be incredibly powerful. And so
I think that there are young folks who I've talked
to who actually are able to figure out who am
I and what does it mean to be me? In
a way that's even more meaningful because they see other
youth who share their interests and share their identities and
they maybe a thousand miles away because they can see
(19:36):
those online.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And that can be extremely validating.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
At the same time, we have seen experiences of by
curious witnessing racism online can cause post traumatic stress symptoms
among young folks. They're anxious, they're frustrated, they're scared, they're
hyper vigilant. The things that they see online come with
(19:59):
them into their life as they're trying to figure out
what does it mean to be me? And so I
think that that's a different way to be a Black girls.
Thinking about WBS, You're always talking about the double consciousness,
I think developing a double consciousness you develop it a
little bit earlier.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah, there's a part of me that feels very feel
torn about that because you know it. Yes, like there
is no really like taking them away from technology, right
because it infiltrates so much of their lives. But it
does feel like it has really kind of stripped this
ability for kids to be kids, which I think adds
to this adultification piece that we often see impacting black girls.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Over the summer, for the past six years, I've taught
Black Girl Power Hour and it's a fun class. I
go to Richmond, Virginia Girls for Change and I work
with the elementary but mostly middle schoolers. One of the
things we do is I work with them first to
look at books and read books steeped from Black women
and girls who have written those books and learn about
(21:01):
the ways that they're writing about their experience. And then
they start writing and podcasting about their own experience. And
it's given me a great window into seeing some of
the things that black girls are thinking about because I
tell them a podcast you can do it by yourself
or I can do it with somebody else, and you
can pick whatever topic you want, and I'm going to
limit it to five minutes, and I want you to
(21:23):
share something. You can either talk to adults or you
can talk to other black girls. And the topics they
pick are both exciting and also they make me pause,
mostly because I think a lot about the concept that
Geronimus came up with in terms of weathering and thinking
(21:44):
about what does it look like? Do we see weathering
occurring younger? So they will talk about one of the
things that Nadia said. She did a podcast on black
girl's childhoods, and one of the things she said is
she said, right now, black girls don't get a childhood.
Instead of worrying about where they're going to go for
a sleepover, they're worried about whether themselves and their parents
(22:07):
are going to come home okay. And I think that
that really talks about the shift that they see. They
know what childhood could look like and they know the
childhood that they're living. And so she says, you know,
we need to be the change. We need to start
the change. It's for us to start. And so really
thinking about we want to build conscious like folks who
(22:30):
are going to change the world, but also knowing that developmentally,
like they're still changing mentally, their brain is still developing,
and we want to make sure that they are given
these identity of farming experiences and nurtured and supported, while
also I think being mindful that they are starting to
(22:51):
deal with some really really heavy topics at younger ages.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
More from our conversation after the break. So I chuckled
when you mentioned a skincare comment because I think that
that is what we've seen a lot of, right, Like
they're spending time like all the incipora and like here's
(23:18):
my makeup, get ready with me. So what other kinds
of things have they shared with you and your research about,
like how they're spending their days.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
One of the things I think has been really interesting
is a lot of them are also thinking about what
does it mean to be healthy and health convers health
related conversations. So one of the students did a podcast
about being vegan and really thinking about what that looks like.
Another one talked about endorphins and exercise and how it
(23:47):
made them feel good.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I thought that that was so great.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
They also the other things they did They talked a
lot about what does it mean to be a black
girl in a school that's predominantly white, and so many
choose to talk about that and both the difficulties as
well as what would be supportive. And so they talk
about again going back to the story of the girl
walking down the hallway, a lot of them talk about
(24:13):
that they walk down their own hallways and that they
are greeted not for who they are, but these stereotypes
that kind of surround black girls. And so this idea
of thinking about they're not being referred to for gifted programming,
that often feel like that their identity is being questioned
(24:36):
in the spaces that they occupy, and so we see
a lot about that. But also the power of teachers.
I hear a lot about, and I think when we
think about our favorite teachers, it doesn't necessarily mean that
there's a school of amazing teachers, but like, shout out
to the teachers who are creating spaces for black girls
to try and figure out what is going on with
my life. But sometimes they're just opening in between periods
(25:01):
and it's someone who says, oh, the teacher. She stands
outside and she waves and she says like, hey, ray Chaw,
you do and have a good day today, And that
warms my heart because she sees me. Other times, it's
that teacher who is teaching that class beyond the way
that it's supposed to be taught. She starts with the
textbook and then remixes with mentor texts and really ensures
(25:21):
that everyone in the classroom feels like their experiences are reflected.
And so I've heard a lot about the power of teachers.
Also think about the power of families, and so I
know that as a developmental psychologist, we talk about and
specifically thinking about adolescence, we talk about how adolescents part
of the development that's happening.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And I won't get too brain science you if we
want to get a brand sciency, we can.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
But in thinking about there's this perception that they move
away from family and kind of shift to have a
huge importance of peers, and that while that is true,
they also talk about how great it is to have
their family and so talking about the kitchen table or
the conversations they have, And so I think that our
(26:09):
teenagers still they still need us, they still lead us
when they're adolescence, they still see the power of really
strong relationships with their family, and so they talk about that.
They talk about the relationship that they've cultivated with their
mother as being something that's really positive. But a lot
of them do talk about police brutality as well, and
a lot of kind of thinking about whether that's local
(26:31):
community area of violence that they have witnessed or heard about,
or just these nationally publicized viral videos of instances of
murders that make them feel like a sense of who
do I trust? Who are the people I turned to?
(26:51):
And so I think that that's really important. But also
I think the last thing I'll say is the developmentally
appropriate things of adolescents. So the biggest thing you're trying
to figure out during adolescences, who am I?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
What does it mean to be me? What's going on
in my body?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And I think that at that point rejection can be
Peers are important, and so experiencing rejection or trying to
make friends.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Two of my young.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Podcasters wrote about how to make friends, and they did
podcasts for other black girls on making friends and not
being scared to reach out, And I think some of
that reminds me a bit of They also a lot
of young folks grew up in the shadows of a
pandemic where they were sitting for five years. In their
five years ago, they were sitting in their little offices
(27:39):
and zooming. And so when they reintegrated, we reintegrated and
put them back into classrooms. And so for young kids
who were in elementary school and then puberty started and
then they're jumped back into the school building, they.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Have to think about, wow, wait, I look different.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
People look different because of kind of brain development, height,
and sensitive and awareness of the stuff that's going on.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's a big deal.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, So I really appreciate you bringing up the idea
of identity, right because that is like the thing that's
happening in much of you know, our childhood and so
much I think of how we figure out who we
are and like who we are in the world is
connected to media. And so there have been all these
conversations around like where are black girls showing up in media?
So we already talked a little bit about social media,
(28:27):
but in the larger landscape of like things we see
on TV or on streaming, it feels like there is
like a lack of black girls present. Can you talk
a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
There's definitely a lack of black girl protagonists, because I
think if we think about distinguishing between black girls and
black women, we've seen some fierce strong black leads, black
women and these kind of leading roles. Really thinking about
black girls even fifteen and under, there are very few
(28:58):
current running movies or television that features black girls. I'm
a bit nervous about what you are talking about the disappearance,
and so I think when media does play a role
in thinking about these messages in the world around you,
what do I see and how does that relate to
(29:20):
who I am? And how do I reconcile those the
messages congruent or discord it from what I know? And
so I think when we don't see media that features
black girls, then we're really missing out on an opportunity
to elevate their narratives. I think it would be so
cool to have a black girl and let's say in
(29:41):
New York City, just going about her life, like her
experiences in schools, her experience making friends. But you see
and you feel how stress she is when she's going
to make that friend, or how she is really stressed
about school, and how then putting in this kind of
intervention component, how does she cope with that? Like, what
(30:01):
are these like really cool coping strategies that we could
infuse into some of these narratives, So then they can say, Hey,
there is an upsurge of media that is being created
by black girls that focuses on their experiences. And so
I think that there are a good number of YouTube
channels where you can kind of get ready with me.
(30:23):
I love some a good get ready with me, but
they're doing their skincare and they're like, okay, so let's
talk about and it's some very heavy topic, but like
I'm listening because like, not only are you and then
you're you know, showing me the different type of makeup
while also informing on things that are what's happening in
your life. And so I think there are some black
(30:45):
girl YouTubers or thinking about TikTok as a platform for
kind of short form narratives that are happening. And so
I think when we think expansively about media, I don't
think that there is an all out disappearance of black
girls in kind of the media landscape, but I do
think in terms of television, it is really really important
(31:08):
for us to think about amplifying the narratives of black girls.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, and I think that that it's something you hear
kind of even on a larger scale related to black
women's media, right, Like there are plenty of things grounded
in Okay, I'm the only one, and what is it
like to navigate racism and all of these things? But
like it's also okay to just have media that just
shows every day miss right, like just getting together with
friends or going to work or whatever. I think the
same thing for girls. Yeah, yeah, more from our conversation
(31:36):
after the break. So, Doctorments, it has been a while
since I have taken the developmental psyche class, so I
remember like learning about all of these theories like PHA
stuff and like ericson stuff. I'd love for you to
(31:57):
share with me, Like what newer research is there around,
because of course all of that was not based on
black kids, right, So what research is there now? Maybe
research you're doing or other colleagues around like developmental models
for black kids and what it does look like for
black kids to thrive.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Mmmm, so rerid so grid.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
So there's the Society for Research on Child Development and
there's a Black caucus, and so that Black caucus has
a couple hundred strong now as well as the association.
The APA Associate has kind of really thinking about centering
the Black experience. And so I think that there are
more people now than ever, but I also think we
still have some more work to go to Really thinking
(32:40):
about it's important, I think to have models that are adapted,
but it's different than having models that are grounded in
black children's experience, and so thinking about this is for
black youth. And so I think two of the ones
that I use in my research and that I love
are the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory, which is
called p best and it sounds very fancy, but doctor
(33:04):
Spencer Craft of that this is a good story. I'm
going to put this here because it leads into why
the theory is so relevant. And so I think a
lot of people when we think about developmental psychologists, maybe
people who haven't taken a developmental psychology class actually probably
know some developmental psychology. So a lot of people are
familiar with Maymi Phipps Clark's work on the doll study,
(33:28):
and so really thinking about she asked the question on
and black children. She says, which one is the good doll?
In which one is the bad doll. And then black
children when they white and a black doll, and Black
children were likely to choose the black doll when the
interviewer asked who's the bad doll, and the white doll
(33:48):
when asked who is the good doll? And so that
served as the impetus for Brown v. Board of Education,
and the idea that's separate but equal was inherently unequal
and harmed full to children. And so that's kind of
thinking about Brownbee Board of Education was a big kind
of developmental scholarship. But I was super fascinated by that.
(34:11):
But then theory wise Spencer comes in, and she came
in in nineteen seventy six. This is my favorite fun fact.
That's why they say. But she replicated the study as
part of her dissertation, and what she found was that
again that black children were choosing the white doll when
(34:32):
asked which ones were the good doll, and that they
were choosing the black doll when asked which one were.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
The bad doll.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
But when she actually talked to them about their own
self esteem, black preschool children actually maintained a healthy self esteem.
And so basically this idea is that black children what
she finds is black children they can report what they
observe and so what they hear, but they actually don't
(35:00):
internalize it in the early years. And so then the
question and the reason that the phenomenological variant of ecological
systems theory comes into play is it's a reminder that
black children are not just sponges taking in all of
the messages in their lives and then just internalizing them
and that making that part of who they are. What
(35:23):
she's saying in the theory is that actually, due to
their identities, they're more likely.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
To raise black children.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
They're more likely to experience bias and discrimination as a
result of racism, but that will lead to and that
increases the likelihood that they'll experience stress. We know that
racism costs stress. When somebody when you're walking with a
plate of cookies like I was the other day, and
the person didn't leave the door open, then it cost
(35:52):
a little stress. But what she says is at that
point that experience of stress does not necessarily mean that
that's going to lead.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
To negative life outcomes.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
I am going to see that stressful thing happening, and
I am going to make meaning of it. So children
are interpreting what does this experience mean? And so when
they've had things like conversations with their family about being
proud to be black, as well as conversations about that
you may experience bias in the world because of the
(36:27):
biases that society has around black Americans. When something like
that happens, then they cannot say like there must be
something wrong with me, or like she didn't see me,
or I must not be important to hope for someone
to hold the door. They can say, oh God, like
what a discriminator. That is an experience of you know, racism,
(36:50):
Like why wouldn't they all keep that?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And so then you.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Actually are preserving your sense of who you are and
you can make meaning of the situation. And so then
the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is this idea
then that in that experience of stress, then you can
utilize coping strategies.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
And so you can say that.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Person didn't open the door because they hold biases, or
that person maybe they didn't notice me.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Then kind of think about for me, it's to go
to the group chat. That's my coping.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
It's like, oh, guys, yeah, did you see this thing
that happened, and then they say, oh, that's so silly,
and then I move forward, I exhale, and I continue
my day, and so I don't immediately internalize that as
saying that there's something wrong with me. And so the
phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is a good way
to understand children's learning and development. That they are confronted
(37:43):
with stress, but they're always making meaning of what that
stress looks like. And when the presence of social support
and some of those kind of coping assets.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Then they can continue to.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Positively develop and it doesn't necessarily kind of derail their
sense of who they are the world. And so I
really love the phenomenological variant ecological systems theory. And then
the second one is Velma Murray. She talks about ordinary
Black family magic, which I think is amazing, and so
she talks about thinking about that due to the phenomenological
(38:15):
variant of ecological systems theory. But similar to the vestiges
of slavery really impact us, from where we live, what
we eat, the laws that are on the books, and
so those things may increase the likelihood forward kind of
negative outcomes, such as kind of thinking about economic insecurity,
(38:36):
food insecurity, living in a place that you don't have
access to high quality healthcare. But what she talks about
is that one of the things that buffers or kind
of shields Black children from the kind of negative experiences
of living in kind of a racially stratified society is
ordinary Black family magic. And so she says things like
(39:00):
the kinship support, so like other mothering or mothering provides
great benefits, or thinking about leaning into this strong kind
of black sisterhood that we have. That's a form she
talks about spirituality, and so spirituality, whatever that looks like
and however that is defined, can buffer or shield those
(39:22):
kind of experiences. And it almost reminds me of glitter.
And so if you've ever used glitter before, it's like
I will do a project and then ten days later
I will still find pieces of glitter. I have showered
every every one of those ten days, and yet that
glitter sticks. I think a lot about ordinary Black family
magic and some of these coping things they stick to
(39:43):
you like glitter. And so when you're in that experience
where something happens, then you still are stuck with those
positive things that have happened. They have kind of provided
you with a boost to be able to cope with
whatever that thing is. And so a lot of our
work is thinking about what's that glitter, what's the residual
stuff that's helping kids thrive, And it's.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
A lot of what we already know.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
It's the things that for us are really powerful. I
think that when we take a developmental approach, though, we
know that how we interpret those things may be different.
So thinking about when we are kind of moving from
our littlest learners, who are kind of very at this point,
(40:27):
they are able to report but not internalize because a
lot of their kind of thoughts are a little egocentric
that are around me, like I love that they love themselves.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
They love themselves.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
But once we see a second period, so there's kind
of zero to three we know in the brain world
is a huge period for learning and development. The brain
is like amazing things are happening. As somebody who focuses
a lot on adolescents, we actually see a second critical
period for that same kind of activity. So developmentally, when
(41:02):
we're thinking about young adolescent brains, this is around starting
at ten kind of or even as early as eight.
Because we know that for black girls, puberty is the
ind across the nation, puberty is starting earlier, but for
black girls it's start ing much earlier, and so thinking
about this might be something that catalyzes ad eight at
(41:22):
the startup con But what we know is that when
we think about the young adolescent brain, that's a second
period of critical development. And so when we're thinking about
those experiences of stress, we are thinking about those experiences
of stress in a brain that is also developing and
is actually more sensitive to that stress. And so what
we see like the ideas of the connections between nerve cells,
(41:48):
they're proliferating, which basically means that like the connections between
different neurons are forming in response to new experiences best
and these unused neural connections they're being discarded so the
brain can work more efficiently, like we only have so
much space up here. And so we also know there's
(42:09):
this continued process of what they call kind of myelination.
So this communication it's almost like the covering and its
speeds of communication between neurons, and so we see continued myelination.
So we see the kind of malleable that the brain
is changing. And one of the ways that we see
a changing in adolescence in a time where I think
(42:30):
we are thinking about what would the absence of media
look like, because it's not that they're not engaging with media,
it's just that there's not black girls centered media, and
also thinking about them and their peers are also.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Kind of trying to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Then without the absence of thinking about that, there's a
really cool Gabrielle Washday type thing for those who are
kind of trying to figure it out. Between the eight
and fifteen age, they're more attuned to that social information
because of they're kind of cognitively and so then during adolescence,
developmentally they are more attuned to social information. They are
(43:08):
more sensitive to rewards than ever before. And so this
was sometimes where we kind of give adolescents a bad rap.
I'm here to say that I love adolescence. We don't
have to talk about them as being these risk takers,
but it is this idea that there are kind of
when the kind of they have an activated reward center
(43:32):
of their brain is kind of more active, and so
then they are becoming kind of more sensitive to social evaluation.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So they may engage in what.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
We consider more risky here because there's more reward, like
having a really great friend feels even better, Like that's
so great, right, Like I love my friends and they
make me feel great and I just can't I'm like wow,
and they feel even greater when you're adolescents.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
But at the same time.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Then that can be more devastating when you have things
like friend breakups or conflict. And so I think when
they're trying to figure out kind of that helps with
this overall goal of trying to figure out developmentally, like
who am I and what does it mean to be me?
The brain is doing something right, right, it's thinking about
they're more attuned to helping you figure out the answer
(44:19):
to that. But at the same time, it means those
like unsupportive contexts or the really damaging media that we
may see that are talking about black girls in ways
that don't represent their actual experience, they could be particularly
harmful and adolescence. But a lot of my work focuses
on thinking about either creating or looking at how meaningful
(44:42):
space is for this kind of identity exploration can have
really enhanced that learning that curiosity and feel really good
because I know, for me, it feels really good to
be have a really strong group of friends, or to
go to a program in New York City and everybody
that panel is so great and they're talking about things
(45:03):
and you just feel really cool. And so thinking about
for adolescents very similarly, like they feel that same joy
and reward. And so when we think about kind of
where do we go moving forward or how do we
support black girls and adolescents, is really thinking about if
it is high reward, then it is also high opportunity
(45:28):
that exists to really thinking about infusing narratives, whether that
be a conversation that you have with your young person
in the car on the way to soccer, even though they're.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Like, Mom, come on, I just want to get to soccer.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Those little things can stick with them. We're doing this
study right now where they're reading a book and the
book talks about it's called the light she feels inside
and she's going throughout the day and her light kind
of a glow. In the book she shows different colors
and afterwards, my dog student Elesha, and I are having
(46:03):
parents talk with their kids around kind of what when
she had a red glow? What was she feeling? Angry?
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Okay, well, when was the last.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Time you felt angry like, let's have those conversations and
so that book and other books and engaging in those
conversations and making those meaningful across all ages chapter books. Similarly,
I think that young folks will whether we see sometimes
they're not going to let you know that that conversation
(46:34):
might feel like that was kind of cringey, mom, but
it may be the thing that's glitter later on when
they hear like, oh, we had that great conversation about
how our hair and our history, and they're like, okay, mom,
I'm just wearing my hair like this. But then when
somebody says like, why is your hair like this, then
(46:54):
they can say, well, you know, actually my hair is
like this, and they repeat the same thing that they
maybe didn't let you know that they heard and appreciated.
But then it's this idea of thinking about kind of
fortifying and surrounding adolescents, particularly black girls, with these positive
and affirming narratives wherever we can find them, wherever we
(47:17):
can create them, or giving them the mic to create
them themselves can be something that we can see that's
most really really helpful in adolescence as this kind of
rewards and that the increased sensitivity as well as we
see these kind of like rapid brain development, thinking about
like what are these brain building experiences that are supportive?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
They can feel good, and they can be really helpful
for kids development.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
So hopefully that's like a development primery.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
It is very helpful to me as the mom of
an eleven year old. Also, you're making me feel much
better about my Korean genius.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
There you go, you are building her brain.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Yeah, well it's a boy, but I'm still applying some
of these sat In Principe's right for sure, for sure.
So this has been so incredible, Doctor Williams. I really
feel like you have given us some great context and
some great places to kind of move forward and really
creating these affirming spaces for black girls. So tell us
where we can stay connected with you. What is your
website as well as any social media channels you'd like
(48:18):
to share?
Speaker 3 (48:20):
So I am on Instagram, So I am at doctor
Lauren Vims. My lab is at the Home Place Lab.
Highly recommend following the lab. We have kind of emerging studies,
but we also find it really important so folks don't
have to read thirty pages of research articles. We try
to put those into six labs and thinking about how
(48:42):
to support children's development. How else take care of your
own mental health and then you can find me on
NYU's website as well as if you google the homeplace
lab then both of those will be googleable.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
So thank you, ERCT.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with me today,
doctor Mims.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
You are incredible, phenomenal and I am just happy to
be here.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Oh, thank you, thank you so much. I'm so glad
doctor Mimms was able to join me for this conversation.
To learn more about her and her work, visit the
show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session
four one, and don't forget to text this episode to
two of your girls right now. Did you know? You
can leave us a voice note with your questions for
(49:30):
the podcast. If you want to suggest movies or books
for us to review, or even have thoughts about topics
you'd like to hear us discuss, drop us a message
at mimo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and
let us know what's on your mind. We might just
answer your question on the podcast. If you're looking for
a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was
(49:54):
produced by at Least Ellis and Tyree Rush. Editing was
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continuing this
conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four oh one of the
Theory for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation afterword from our sponsors. When Kashawn Thompson coined the
term black girl magic in twenty thirteen, it sparked a
(01:19):
movement that celebrated black women, girls, and felms their resilience,
beauty and power. And as amazing as the movement has been,
twelve years later, we find ourselves in an era of
blackfam representation that still struggles in its delineation of black
women from black girls, as the media examples dwindle in
culture shifts, we hear Therapy for Black Girls dare to
(01:40):
ask what even is black girlhood? Joining me for this
conversation is doctor Lauren Mimes, an assistant professor at NYU
Steinhardt School. Her research focuses on how sociocultural stressors impact
black children's development and identifying strengths that can buffer the
negative effects of bias and discrimination. She also served as
(02:01):
an assistant director of the White House Initiative on Educational
Excellence for African Americans during the Obama administration, exploring girlhood
and womanhood through education, media representation, psychology, and somehow even TikTok.
Doctor Mims helps us better contextualize not only what black
girlhood is, but how to empower young girls in helping
us define it. This conversation is a continuation of our
(02:24):
reflection on the past, present, in future of Black girlhood
and womanhood in celebration of four hundred episodes of Therapy
for Black Girls. Very excited for you to hear this conversation.
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for
(02:49):
joining us today, doctor Mims.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh, I'm so excited.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I am a doctor, Joey Fan So I'm so excited
for us to get to talk.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, I am too. So can you start by telling
us a little bit about your background and what you
do as a psychologist?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah? Absolutely, so.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I'm currently a professor of developmental psychology. I started in
the field of developmental psychology because I felt like there
was no one who was really focused and immersed in
thinking about from the moment a black child wakes up
to the moment they go to bed, what are the places,
the spaces, the relationships that either help or hinder their ability.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
To be their best selves?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And so I really wanted to take this kind of
whole child approached understanding how to best support children's development.
So I started off as an undergrad at the University
of Virginia. I remember my textbooks. We had culture Week
and that was when we learned about non white children.
And I remember at the other end of my week,
(03:52):
I would go to African American studies classes, and I
remember I was so wrapped up and learning about the
brilliance of black Americans throughout time, and I thought, Huh,
we really need to bridge these two and thinking about
Black children's development and how we have this amazing history
of surviving and thriving, and how can we ensure take
(04:14):
what we know about black history and black people's lives
and use that to really transform the power and the
possibilities and the potential for Black children. And so I
have been working to think about how to create pathways
to thriving for Black children and their families.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And that's my journey. I took a small.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Leave of absence during my PhD to serve as assistant
director of the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for
African Americans during the Obama administration, which was amazing. I
was able to really think about when we center black
children's brilliance in the educational settings, then really looking and
thinking about what do they need. And one of the
(04:59):
things that we did then was bring black children into
the space and ask Black children what do they need
to be supported in school spaces and then work with
administrators and policymakers to think about how to we enact
those policies with that center black children's needs.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And so that has been where I am.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
And now this kind of Virginia girl is here in
a big New York city, really focusing on thinking about
black children's excellence.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I love that. Thank you for that, doctor Miams. So
I'm curious to hear what kinds of things did the
children identify when you ask them, like, what kinds of
things do you need to be supported?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
I love that question. I think sometimes those adults we think, oh,
more pizza parties, or we want to have restars is longer.
But they were really talking a lot about supports kind
of having their basic needs met, and so talking about
things we want to walk down the hallway and feel
like our bodies are not policed, particularly for black girls.
(05:59):
And I remember one girl said when she would walk
down the hallway the way that she said, my.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Hip swish naturally back and.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Forth, and people would think that I had an attitude,
and they would say, where are you going with all
of that attitude?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
What are you doing?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And she really wanted teachers to understand black girls and
the unique experiences that they bring into the space, from
the way that they walk, the way that they talk,
the way that they engage in the classroom, so that
she didn't feel like she had to be someone else
or that she was going to walk down the hallway
to the bathroom and know that she would be stopped
(06:35):
by every teacher who thought that she was doing something wrong,
that she didn't have a pass. And so a lot
of it was around really thinking about discipline conversation, so
kind of rethinking discipline in those policies as well as
some of them said that there were not bathrooms doors
in the bathrooms, and that their water fountains weren't working.
They were really worried about nutritious access to meals. They said,
(06:59):
you know, the pizza is really greasy. I would love
for the pizza to change. And so I think that
a lot of what they wanted echoes a lot of
the things that we want for children, which we were
talking to elementary and middle school children, and so I
think when we give them the platform, they're really echoing
some of the things that the hopes and goals and
not just these kind of small fun things. But like
(07:21):
I will speak for them, they probably would want more recess.
They don't want to get rid of pizza altogether. But
a lot of the things they were talking about is
what does it mean to be a black student in
this school? Knowing that I may experience bias and discrimination
just for being me, and I don't want that. I
want teachers to see me and to affirm who I
(07:42):
am in this space.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Thank you so much for sharing that, and I think
you have given us like a very poignant example. Then
the reason why I really wanted to have this conversation
about black girlhood. So the example that you shared about
the little girl kind of walking through the hallway and
her hip swishing, and how adults often make one interpretation
of things that kids do that is not at all
accurate with the reality of what's happening and is often
(08:05):
a misinterpretation with black girls, right, Like there's often these
conduct or attitude lenses put on their behavior that is
not at all accurate. Can you talk a little bit
about like how that happens and like the impact that
has on girls.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So, I think one of the biggest studies that I
think a lot is about Georgetown, So the Center on
Gender Justice and Opportunity. They released the study a couple
of years ago that introduced this topic of adultification bias
against black girls. And so when they were in that study,
they found that among those that they surveyed, adults actually
perceived black girls to be less innocent, less needing of protection,
(08:44):
less needing of nurturing, and that they were more they
were seen more adult like than their peers. And this
started as young as five, and so I think I
also think a lot about There was a news story
in the New York Times about a young little girl
and she was giggling. She was giggling and having a
great time in class, and she was sent to the
nurse's office and she was actually searched for contraband because
(09:08):
her joy. They thought her joy must have come from
some type of drug. But I think for me, giggling
is a core part of children's experiences. But adultification bias
really takes that away from Black girls because at that
point they were seen as kind of miniature black women.
So then this is not miniature black women. It's from
(09:31):
a negative perception because all black women giggle as well,
the idea that they must be knowledgeable about illicit drugs
and they must be engaging in illicit drugs, and that's
why we see this giggling instead of seeing black girls
as Black girls as these kind of like learning, developing,
thriving little girls that need support, valued to be valued,
(09:56):
and kind of being loved and all the ways that
we want children to be, And so adultification bias really
shapes how adults see children to the point where I
just think a lot about the hip switching and the giggling,
and that you could police giggling and think that that
joy is related to something like engaging in enlictit drug
(10:18):
activity in elementary school mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And I know that your work touches on this, and
there are so many other like brilliant researchers who are
doing a lot around the adultification of black girls right
and really helping educators, I think especially to look at
like how this is impacting the way they are disciplining
and teaching. Can you tell us a little bit about
some of those practices and what educators and maybe other
adults need to know about black girls.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I think the.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
First thing is to really think about that really positive.
When you think of black girls, what do you think of?
And often I think the first intervention I always say
is self reflection. So how do I see the students
in my classrooms, particular the black girls. Am I seeing
them from what we call kind of an axiom of criminality?
(11:05):
And so when am I looking at black girls in
the classroom when a pen drops is the first thing
I do look over at the black students. And so
a lot of research has found I gays, when you
prime teachers to say kind of what's wrong in the classroom,
they tend to stare more at black children than they
do of children of other races. And so pausing and
(11:25):
thinking what was the last interaction that I had with
the black girl in my classroom? Was it related to discipline?
Was it related to talking about off task behavior? When
did I kind of celebrate and affirm them? And I
think even thinking about engaging in kind of that process
of awareness and thinking about how am I showing up
(11:47):
for the black girls in my classroom and also kicking
it one step further and really thinking about doing an inventory.
What does my classroom library look like? Where are black
girls represented? When are we talking about black Americans? So
some of my research has talked about in middle school,
some of the youth said when I asked them about
where do you learn about at race and where do
you learn about being African American? They said history class,
(12:09):
and it's around slaves and they said whips and chains.
That's the imagery that they see of black Americans in
the school environment, and so I think engaging in practices
where we're really taking an inventory of the ways that
we are treating and nurturing black girls in our classroom
as well as thinking about how we are representing black girlhood,
(12:30):
I think is a good first step that all teachers
can engage in, and it's something that is incredibly meaningful.
So I remember when the first time that I read
a black girl book in school, it was Warriors Don't
Cry by Melba Patillobile's and it was about school integration,
and that was so meaningful to me to read in
(12:51):
class and to have everybody have to read that book
and to read about a black girl's experience about how
she wants to achieve academically but how difficult it is
because of the threats that she has, and she talks
to her grandmother encourages her to be her best self.
And I just remember reading that as a required reading
(13:14):
was incredibly meaningful to me because that was the first
time I think that I had seen my black girlhood
reflected as something that was important to history.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And so I think that those are really.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Important, not just kind of representation in the number of
books you have, but that is one step further and
really thinking that was required reading and also being really
really careful during those interactions to shut down any instances
of bias or you know, giving people the language to
have these conversations, providing spaces for you to have but
(13:48):
really being careful. You also don't want to traumatize young
folks where they then have to hear about that's wrong
with Melba or these kind of stereotyped languages used in
the conversation. And so I think it's important too, but
it can be really powerful. So I just remember my
peers really talking about how brave she was and how
they didn't know that these things were happening, and that
(14:09):
was really I think that was meaningful for me to
see that other people were engaging in the history of
the civil rights movement from the lens of a black girl.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
That was incredibly powerful when I was younger. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So I have so many thoughts swirling, Doctor Miams. One
of them is like, what is even rubric may not
be the best word, but like, what are we even
talking about when we are talking about black girlhood? So
I'm thinking about like my own experience as a little
black girl, right I'm thinking about hand games and jump
rope and like playing outside with friends and stuff, and
(14:45):
it feels like girlhood and just childrenhood looks very different
these days, I think, especially in the advent of technology.
And I know that there are lots of initiatives to
keep kids outside and like make sure that they are
able to kind of still be kids, but it feels
like there's a fight for that to happen, right, I
mean that so much is kind of along the backdrop
of technology. So we're talking about like black girlhood, Like,
(15:08):
what does that even look like in twenty twenty five?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
What does black girlhood look like in twenty twenty five?
I would say the first answer is to ask black girls.
I think so often, as black adults, black women, we
sometimes either you know. I love the idea that we
don't know. I think that that is an important space
(15:33):
for us to come into and because I think that
when we were black girls, our experience is different than
black girls today, and so so much of my research
is asking those kind of basic questions. So tell me
about what your day is like, tell me about the
things that you love, tell me about the things that
you dislike. And I have learned so much about skincare
(15:57):
is bigger. But also so I think that when we
think about black girlhood, I've been thinking a lot about
how it is not just adultification bias and the fact
that we see them as older. I also think that
because of the advantage of technology, they're engaging in things
(16:19):
that maybe we weren't thinking about or engaging in when
we were that age. So I think that handgames are
still wonderful and still fun. But I also think that
when I talk to them, they're also talking about how
do they cope with seeing the videos of the murder
of George Floyd and thinking about young girls are kind
(16:42):
of contending with that, as well as seeing ads of
girls who are missing, while they're also engaging on social media,
And so I think that their childhood is different than
ours in the fact that we have this information.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Ecosystem that is reaching them.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
At ages that are younger than I think when we
started really thinking about some of the things that were occurring.
And so I think that black girlhood is giggling, it's joy,
it's scissorhood, but it is also I think focusing on
learning how to cope with really difficult things that are
(17:30):
happening to themselves or to the world, and I think
that that's become an even bigger part of black girls' journeys.
A lot of the girls I talk to when I
ask them kind of what is it like growing up
as a black girl, we are currently asking young folks
to answer the question being a black youth today means,
(17:51):
and then just opening it to ask the first thing
that comes to mind, and it's difficult. We hear things
like it's tough, it's scary, it's exhaust stay, it's a lot,
and those are the first things that they are bringing up.
And so I think that what I don't want to
do is infantilize black girls and think that they're not
(18:14):
little women. But they also are not as insulated from
the societal ills as we may have seen in other
time periods.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I don't remember.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
When I was younger, I wanted we didn't see these
viral videos of police brutality. We would watch the news,
but the news was something that you could turn off.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
When you use the internet. The internet tied up with
the phone, so you weren't on the internet that long.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
There were kind of safeguards that were around, and so
I think where we see a lot of Black youth
report that they are online almost constantly or most a
lot of the day, And so I think that that
you see kind of an experience where you are walking
through the world while also seeing the world move outside
(19:07):
of your kind of your smaller ecosystem, broader than your neighborhood, broader.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Than your school, broader than your peers.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
You can see other people you've never met before, and
I think that that can be incredibly powerful. And so
I think that there are young folks who I've talked
to who actually are able to figure out who am
I and what does it mean to be me? In
a way that's even more meaningful because they see other
youth who share their interests and share their identities and
they maybe a thousand miles away because they can see
(19:36):
those online.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And that can be extremely validating.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
At the same time, we have seen experiences of by
curious witnessing racism online can cause post traumatic stress symptoms
among young folks. They're anxious, they're frustrated, they're scared, they're
hyper vigilant. The things that they see online come with
(19:59):
them into their life as they're trying to figure out
what does it mean to be me? And so I
think that that's a different way to be a Black girls.
Thinking about WBS, You're always talking about the double consciousness,
I think developing a double consciousness you develop it a
little bit earlier.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah, there's a part of me that feels very feel
torn about that because you know it. Yes, like there
is no really like taking them away from technology, right
because it infiltrates so much of their lives. But it
does feel like it has really kind of stripped this
ability for kids to be kids, which I think adds
to this adultification piece that we often see impacting black girls.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Over the summer, for the past six years, I've taught
Black Girl Power Hour and it's a fun class. I
go to Richmond, Virginia Girls for Change and I work
with the elementary but mostly middle schoolers. One of the
things we do is I work with them first to
look at books and read books steeped from Black women
and girls who have written those books and learn about
(21:01):
the ways that they're writing about their experience. And then
they start writing and podcasting about their own experience. And
it's given me a great window into seeing some of
the things that black girls are thinking about because I
tell them a podcast you can do it by yourself
or I can do it with somebody else, and you
can pick whatever topic you want, and I'm going to
limit it to five minutes, and I want you to
(21:23):
share something. You can either talk to adults or you
can talk to other black girls. And the topics they
pick are both exciting and also they make me pause,
mostly because I think a lot about the concept that
Geronimus came up with in terms of weathering and thinking
(21:44):
about what does it look like? Do we see weathering
occurring younger? So they will talk about one of the
things that Nadia said. She did a podcast on black
girl's childhoods, and one of the things she said is
she said, right now, black girls don't get a childhood.
Instead of worrying about where they're going to go for
a sleepover, they're worried about whether themselves and their parents
(22:07):
are going to come home okay. And I think that
that really talks about the shift that they see. They
know what childhood could look like and they know the
childhood that they're living. And so she says, you know,
we need to be the change. We need to start
the change. It's for us to start. And so really
thinking about we want to build conscious like folks who
(22:30):
are going to change the world, but also knowing that developmentally,
like they're still changing mentally, their brain is still developing,
and we want to make sure that they are given
these identity of farming experiences and nurtured and supported, while
also I think being mindful that they are starting to
(22:51):
deal with some really really heavy topics at younger ages.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
More from our conversation after the break. So I chuckled
when you mentioned a skincare comment because I think that
that is what we've seen a lot of, right, Like
they're spending time like all the incipora and like here's
(23:18):
my makeup, get ready with me. So what other kinds
of things have they shared with you and your research about,
like how they're spending their days.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
One of the things I think has been really interesting
is a lot of them are also thinking about what
does it mean to be healthy and health convers health
related conversations. So one of the students did a podcast
about being vegan and really thinking about what that looks like.
Another one talked about endorphins and exercise and how it
(23:47):
made them feel good.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I thought that that was so great.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
They also the other things they did They talked a
lot about what does it mean to be a black
girl in a school that's predominantly white, and so many
choose to talk about that and both the difficulties as
well as what would be supportive. And so they talk
about again going back to the story of the girl
walking down the hallway, a lot of them talk about
(24:13):
that they walk down their own hallways and that they
are greeted not for who they are, but these stereotypes
that kind of surround black girls. And so this idea
of thinking about they're not being referred to for gifted programming,
that often feel like that their identity is being questioned
(24:36):
in the spaces that they occupy, and so we see
a lot about that. But also the power of teachers.
I hear a lot about, and I think when we
think about our favorite teachers, it doesn't necessarily mean that
there's a school of amazing teachers, but like, shout out
to the teachers who are creating spaces for black girls
to try and figure out what is going on with
my life. But sometimes they're just opening in between periods
(25:01):
and it's someone who says, oh, the teacher. She stands
outside and she waves and she says like, hey, ray Chaw,
you do and have a good day today, And that
warms my heart because she sees me. Other times, it's
that teacher who is teaching that class beyond the way
that it's supposed to be taught. She starts with the
textbook and then remixes with mentor texts and really ensures
(25:21):
that everyone in the classroom feels like their experiences are reflected.
And so I've heard a lot about the power of teachers.
Also think about the power of families, and so I
know that as a developmental psychologist, we talk about and
specifically thinking about adolescence, we talk about how adolescents part
of the development that's happening.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And I won't get too brain science you if we
want to get a brand sciency, we can.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
But in thinking about there's this perception that they move
away from family and kind of shift to have a
huge importance of peers, and that while that is true,
they also talk about how great it is to have
their family and so talking about the kitchen table or
the conversations they have, And so I think that our
(26:09):
teenagers still they still need us, they still lead us
when they're adolescence, they still see the power of really
strong relationships with their family, and so they talk about that.
They talk about the relationship that they've cultivated with their
mother as being something that's really positive. But a lot
of them do talk about police brutality as well, and
a lot of kind of thinking about whether that's local
(26:31):
community area of violence that they have witnessed or heard about,
or just these nationally publicized viral videos of instances of
murders that make them feel like a sense of who
do I trust? Who are the people I turned to?
(26:51):
And so I think that that's really important. But also
I think the last thing I'll say is the developmentally
appropriate things of adolescents. So the biggest thing you're trying
to figure out during adolescences, who am I?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
What does it mean to be me? What's going on
in my body?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And I think that at that point rejection can be
Peers are important, and so experiencing rejection or trying to
make friends.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Two of my young.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Podcasters wrote about how to make friends, and they did
podcasts for other black girls on making friends and not
being scared to reach out, And I think some of
that reminds me a bit of They also a lot
of young folks grew up in the shadows of a
pandemic where they were sitting for five years. In their
five years ago, they were sitting in their little offices
(27:39):
and zooming. And so when they reintegrated, we reintegrated and
put them back into classrooms. And so for young kids
who were in elementary school and then puberty started and
then they're jumped back into the school building, they.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Have to think about, wow, wait, I look different.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
People look different because of kind of brain development, height,
and sensitive and awareness of the stuff that's going on.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's a big deal.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, So I really appreciate you bringing up the idea
of identity, right because that is like the thing that's
happening in much of you know, our childhood and so
much I think of how we figure out who we
are and like who we are in the world is
connected to media. And so there have been all these
conversations around like where are black girls showing up in media?
So we already talked a little bit about social media,
(28:27):
but in the larger landscape of like things we see
on TV or on streaming, it feels like there is
like a lack of black girls present. Can you talk
a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
There's definitely a lack of black girl protagonists, because I
think if we think about distinguishing between black girls and
black women, we've seen some fierce strong black leads, black
women and these kind of leading roles. Really thinking about
black girls even fifteen and under, there are very few
(28:58):
current running movies or television that features black girls. I'm
a bit nervous about what you are talking about the disappearance,
and so I think when media does play a role
in thinking about these messages in the world around you,
what do I see and how does that relate to
(29:20):
who I am? And how do I reconcile those the
messages congruent or discord it from what I know? And
so I think when we don't see media that features
black girls, then we're really missing out on an opportunity
to elevate their narratives. I think it would be so
cool to have a black girl and let's say in
(29:41):
New York City, just going about her life, like her
experiences in schools, her experience making friends. But you see
and you feel how stress she is when she's going
to make that friend, or how she is really stressed
about school, and how then putting in this kind of
intervention component, how does she cope with that? Like, what
(30:01):
are these like really cool coping strategies that we could
infuse into some of these narratives, So then they can say, Hey,
there is an upsurge of media that is being created
by black girls that focuses on their experiences. And so
I think that there are a good number of YouTube
channels where you can kind of get ready with me.
(30:23):
I love some a good get ready with me, but
they're doing their skincare and they're like, okay, so let's
talk about and it's some very heavy topic, but like
I'm listening because like, not only are you and then
you're you know, showing me the different type of makeup
while also informing on things that are what's happening in
your life. And so I think there are some black
(30:45):
girl YouTubers or thinking about TikTok as a platform for
kind of short form narratives that are happening. And so
I think when we think expansively about media, I don't
think that there is an all out disappearance of black
girls in kind of the media landscape, but I do
think in terms of television, it is really really important
(31:08):
for us to think about amplifying the narratives of black girls.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, and I think that that it's something you hear
kind of even on a larger scale related to black
women's media, right, Like there are plenty of things grounded
in Okay, I'm the only one, and what is it
like to navigate racism and all of these things? But
like it's also okay to just have media that just
shows every day miss right, like just getting together with
friends or going to work or whatever. I think the
same thing for girls. Yeah, yeah, more from our conversation
(31:36):
after the break. So, Doctorments, it has been a while
since I have taken the developmental psyche class, so I
remember like learning about all of these theories like PHA
stuff and like ericson stuff. I'd love for you to
(31:57):
share with me, Like what newer research is there around,
because of course all of that was not based on
black kids, right, So what research is there now? Maybe
research you're doing or other colleagues around like developmental models
for black kids and what it does look like for
black kids to thrive.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Mmmm, so rerid so grid.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
So there's the Society for Research on Child Development and
there's a Black caucus, and so that Black caucus has
a couple hundred strong now as well as the association.
The APA Associate has kind of really thinking about centering
the Black experience. And so I think that there are
more people now than ever, but I also think we
still have some more work to go to Really thinking
(32:40):
about it's important, I think to have models that are adapted,
but it's different than having models that are grounded in
black children's experience, and so thinking about this is for
black youth. And so I think two of the ones
that I use in my research and that I love
are the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory, which is
called p best and it sounds very fancy, but doctor
(33:04):
Spencer Craft of that this is a good story. I'm
going to put this here because it leads into why
the theory is so relevant. And so I think a
lot of people when we think about developmental psychologists, maybe
people who haven't taken a developmental psychology class actually probably
know some developmental psychology. So a lot of people are
familiar with Maymi Phipps Clark's work on the doll study,
(33:28):
and so really thinking about she asked the question on
and black children. She says, which one is the good doll?
In which one is the bad doll. And then black
children when they white and a black doll, and Black
children were likely to choose the black doll when the
interviewer asked who's the bad doll, and the white doll
(33:48):
when asked who is the good doll? And so that
served as the impetus for Brown v. Board of Education,
and the idea that's separate but equal was inherently unequal
and harmed full to children. And so that's kind of
thinking about Brownbee Board of Education was a big kind
of developmental scholarship. But I was super fascinated by that.
(34:11):
But then theory wise Spencer comes in, and she came
in in nineteen seventy six. This is my favorite fun fact.
That's why they say. But she replicated the study as
part of her dissertation, and what she found was that
again that black children were choosing the white doll when
(34:32):
asked which ones were the good doll, and that they
were choosing the black doll when asked which one were.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
The bad doll.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
But when she actually talked to them about their own
self esteem, black preschool children actually maintained a healthy self esteem.
And so basically this idea is that black children what
she finds is black children they can report what they
observe and so what they hear, but they actually don't
(35:00):
internalize it in the early years. And so then the
question and the reason that the phenomenological variant of ecological
systems theory comes into play is it's a reminder that
black children are not just sponges taking in all of
the messages in their lives and then just internalizing them
and that making that part of who they are. What
(35:23):
she's saying in the theory is that actually, due to
their identities, they're more likely.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
To raise black children.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
They're more likely to experience bias and discrimination as a
result of racism, but that will lead to and that
increases the likelihood that they'll experience stress. We know that
racism costs stress. When somebody when you're walking with a
plate of cookies like I was the other day, and
the person didn't leave the door open, then it cost
(35:52):
a little stress. But what she says is at that
point that experience of stress does not necessarily mean that
that's going to lead.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
To negative life outcomes.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
I am going to see that stressful thing happening, and
I am going to make meaning of it. So children
are interpreting what does this experience mean? And so when
they've had things like conversations with their family about being
proud to be black, as well as conversations about that
you may experience bias in the world because of the
(36:27):
biases that society has around black Americans. When something like
that happens, then they cannot say like there must be
something wrong with me, or like she didn't see me,
or I must not be important to hope for someone
to hold the door. They can say, oh God, like
what a discriminator. That is an experience of you know, racism,
(36:50):
Like why wouldn't they all keep that?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And so then you.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Actually are preserving your sense of who you are and
you can make meaning of the situation. And so then
the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is this idea
then that in that experience of stress, then you can
utilize coping strategies.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
And so you can say that.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Person didn't open the door because they hold biases, or
that person maybe they didn't notice me.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Then kind of think about for me, it's to go
to the group chat. That's my coping.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
It's like, oh, guys, yeah, did you see this thing
that happened, and then they say, oh, that's so silly,
and then I move forward, I exhale, and I continue
my day, and so I don't immediately internalize that as
saying that there's something wrong with me. And so the
phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is a good way
to understand children's learning and development. That they are confronted
(37:43):
with stress, but they're always making meaning of what that
stress looks like. And when the presence of social support
and some of those kind of coping assets.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Then they can continue to.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Positively develop and it doesn't necessarily kind of derail their
sense of who they are the world. And so I
really love the phenomenological variant ecological systems theory. And then
the second one is Velma Murray. She talks about ordinary
Black family magic, which I think is amazing, and so
she talks about thinking about that due to the phenomenological
(38:15):
variant of ecological systems theory. But similar to the vestiges
of slavery really impact us, from where we live, what
we eat, the laws that are on the books, and
so those things may increase the likelihood forward kind of
negative outcomes, such as kind of thinking about economic insecurity,
(38:36):
food insecurity, living in a place that you don't have
access to high quality healthcare. But what she talks about
is that one of the things that buffers or kind
of shields Black children from the kind of negative experiences
of living in kind of a racially stratified society is
ordinary Black family magic. And so she says things like
(39:00):
the kinship support, so like other mothering or mothering provides
great benefits, or thinking about leaning into this strong kind
of black sisterhood that we have. That's a form she
talks about spirituality, and so spirituality, whatever that looks like
and however that is defined, can buffer or shield those
(39:22):
kind of experiences. And it almost reminds me of glitter.
And so if you've ever used glitter before, it's like
I will do a project and then ten days later
I will still find pieces of glitter. I have showered
every every one of those ten days, and yet that
glitter sticks. I think a lot about ordinary Black family
magic and some of these coping things they stick to
(39:43):
you like glitter. And so when you're in that experience
where something happens, then you still are stuck with those
positive things that have happened. They have kind of provided
you with a boost to be able to cope with
whatever that thing is. And so a lot of our
work is thinking about what's that glitter, what's the residual
stuff that's helping kids thrive, And it's.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
A lot of what we already know.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
It's the things that for us are really powerful. I
think that when we take a developmental approach, though, we
know that how we interpret those things may be different.
So thinking about when we are kind of moving from
our littlest learners, who are kind of very at this point,
(40:27):
they are able to report but not internalize because a
lot of their kind of thoughts are a little egocentric
that are around me, like I love that they love themselves.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
They love themselves.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
But once we see a second period, so there's kind
of zero to three we know in the brain world
is a huge period for learning and development. The brain
is like amazing things are happening. As somebody who focuses
a lot on adolescents, we actually see a second critical
period for that same kind of activity. So developmentally, when
(41:02):
we're thinking about young adolescent brains, this is around starting
at ten kind of or even as early as eight.
Because we know that for black girls, puberty is the
ind across the nation, puberty is starting earlier, but for
black girls it's start ing much earlier, and so thinking
about this might be something that catalyzes ad eight at
(41:22):
the startup con But what we know is that when
we think about the young adolescent brain, that's a second
period of critical development. And so when we're thinking about
those experiences of stress, we are thinking about those experiences
of stress in a brain that is also developing and
is actually more sensitive to that stress. And so what
we see like the ideas of the connections between nerve cells,
(41:48):
they're proliferating, which basically means that like the connections between
different neurons are forming in response to new experiences best
and these unused neural connections they're being discarded so the
brain can work more efficiently, like we only have so
much space up here. And so we also know there's
(42:09):
this continued process of what they call kind of myelination.
So this communication it's almost like the covering and its
speeds of communication between neurons, and so we see continued myelination.
So we see the kind of malleable that the brain
is changing. And one of the ways that we see
a changing in adolescence in a time where I think
(42:30):
we are thinking about what would the absence of media
look like, because it's not that they're not engaging with media,
it's just that there's not black girls centered media, and
also thinking about them and their peers are also.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Kind of trying to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Then without the absence of thinking about that, there's a
really cool Gabrielle Washday type thing for those who are
kind of trying to figure it out. Between the eight
and fifteen age, they're more attuned to that social information
because of they're kind of cognitively and so then during adolescence,
developmentally they are more attuned to social information. They are
(43:08):
more sensitive to rewards than ever before. And so this
was sometimes where we kind of give adolescents a bad rap.
I'm here to say that I love adolescence. We don't
have to talk about them as being these risk takers,
but it is this idea that there are kind of
when the kind of they have an activated reward center
(43:32):
of their brain is kind of more active, and so
then they are becoming kind of more sensitive to social evaluation.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So they may engage in what.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
We consider more risky here because there's more reward, like
having a really great friend feels even better, Like that's
so great, right, Like I love my friends and they
make me feel great and I just can't I'm like wow,
and they feel even greater when you're adolescents.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
But at the same time.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Then that can be more devastating when you have things
like friend breakups or conflict. And so I think when
they're trying to figure out kind of that helps with
this overall goal of trying to figure out developmentally, like
who am I and what does it mean to be me?
The brain is doing something right, right, it's thinking about
they're more attuned to helping you figure out the answer
(44:19):
to that. But at the same time, it means those
like unsupportive contexts or the really damaging media that we
may see that are talking about black girls in ways
that don't represent their actual experience, they could be particularly
harmful and adolescence. But a lot of my work focuses
on thinking about either creating or looking at how meaningful
(44:42):
space is for this kind of identity exploration can have
really enhanced that learning that curiosity and feel really good
because I know, for me, it feels really good to
be have a really strong group of friends, or to
go to a program in New York City and everybody
that panel is so great and they're talking about things
(45:03):
and you just feel really cool. And so thinking about
for adolescents very similarly, like they feel that same joy
and reward. And so when we think about kind of
where do we go moving forward or how do we
support black girls and adolescents, is really thinking about if
it is high reward, then it is also high opportunity
(45:28):
that exists to really thinking about infusing narratives, whether that
be a conversation that you have with your young person
in the car on the way to soccer, even though they're.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Like, Mom, come on, I just want to get to soccer.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Those little things can stick with them. We're doing this
study right now where they're reading a book and the
book talks about it's called the light she feels inside
and she's going throughout the day and her light kind
of a glow. In the book she shows different colors
and afterwards, my dog student Elesha, and I are having
(46:03):
parents talk with their kids around kind of what when
she had a red glow? What was she feeling? Angry?
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Okay, well, when was the last.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Time you felt angry like, let's have those conversations and
so that book and other books and engaging in those
conversations and making those meaningful across all ages chapter books. Similarly,
I think that young folks will whether we see sometimes
they're not going to let you know that that conversation
(46:34):
might feel like that was kind of cringey, mom, but
it may be the thing that's glitter later on when
they hear like, oh, we had that great conversation about
how our hair and our history, and they're like, okay, mom,
I'm just wearing my hair like this. But then when
somebody says like, why is your hair like this, then
(46:54):
they can say, well, you know, actually my hair is
like this, and they repeat the same thing that they
maybe didn't let you know that they heard and appreciated.
But then it's this idea of thinking about kind of
fortifying and surrounding adolescents, particularly black girls, with these positive
and affirming narratives wherever we can find them, wherever we
(47:17):
can create them, or giving them the mic to create
them themselves can be something that we can see that's
most really really helpful in adolescence as this kind of
rewards and that the increased sensitivity as well as we
see these kind of like rapid brain development, thinking about
like what are these brain building experiences that are supportive?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
They can feel good, and they can be really helpful
for kids development.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
So hopefully that's like a development primery.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
It is very helpful to me as the mom of
an eleven year old. Also, you're making me feel much
better about my Korean genius.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
There you go, you are building her brain.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Yeah, well it's a boy, but I'm still applying some
of these sat In Principe's right for sure, for sure.
So this has been so incredible, Doctor Williams. I really
feel like you have given us some great context and
some great places to kind of move forward and really
creating these affirming spaces for black girls. So tell us
where we can stay connected with you. What is your
website as well as any social media channels you'd like
(48:18):
to share?
Speaker 3 (48:20):
So I am on Instagram, So I am at doctor
Lauren Vims. My lab is at the Home Place Lab.
Highly recommend following the lab. We have kind of emerging studies,
but we also find it really important so folks don't
have to read thirty pages of research articles. We try
to put those into six labs and thinking about how
(48:42):
to support children's development. How else take care of your
own mental health and then you can find me on
NYU's website as well as if you google the homeplace
lab then both of those will be googleable.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
So thank you, ERCT.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with me today,
doctor Mims.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
You are incredible, phenomenal and I am just happy to
be here.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Oh, thank you, thank you so much. I'm so glad
doctor Mimms was able to join me for this conversation.
To learn more about her and her work, visit the
show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session
four one, and don't forget to text this episode to
two of your girls right now. Did you know? You
can leave us a voice note with your questions for
(49:30):
the podcast. If you want to suggest movies or books
for us to review, or even have thoughts about topics
you'd like to hear us discuss, drop us a message
at mimo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and
let us know what's on your mind. We might just
answer your question on the podcast. If you're looking for
a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was
(49:54):
produced by at Least Ellis and Tyree Rush. Editing was
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continuing this
conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!