Session 407: Driving Anxiety

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
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(00:57):
for joining me for session four oh seven of the
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(01:41):
join Patreon for all the details about what we're planning
and to be the first to know when the doors
are open. We can't wait to see you inside. Driving
and getting your license is generally considered a milestone achievement
of adolescence in early adulthood, but for many, the prospect
of driving is an incredible burden that leads to terrible anxiety.

(02:05):
In fact, according to a twenty twenty study from the
Insurance Information Institute, only twenty five percent of sixteen year
olds in the United States had drivers licenses, compared to
forty three percent in nineteen ninety seven. But even for adults,
the prospect of driving presents obstacles, as was the case
with one of today's guests. Hey Fran Hay is a

(02:25):
wellness advocate, influencer, and most famously co hosts of the
friend Zone podcast. In a recent episode, she opened up
about her struggles with getting her license and learning to
drive as an adult. In today's conversation, I get to
learn more about how Fran worked to overcome her driving anxiety,
and then later on, I'll be joined by a clinical
psychologist to learn more about what informs driving anxiety. I'm

(02:49):
so excited for you to hear this conversation. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session.
But thank you so much for being here with us today.
Friend Absolutely, it's a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
You know how I feel about you, So thank you.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Oh, the honor is mine, The honor is mine. So
one of the many things that I love about the
friend Zone is that you all are so candid and
kind of sharing your own kind of experiences of being
a human and like the things that you're struggling with.
And on a recent episode you've been talking about like
your anxiety around driving, So tell us a little bit
more about this, or for maybe people who haven't heard

(03:33):
that episode of the friend Zone, and like your process
of learning to drive and getting your license.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, yeah, so I am a true blue New Yorker.
If you know anything about New Yorkers. We take the
train everywhere, and it really isn't even a class thing.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
It's not a race thing. It's just a convenience thing.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
It's it's a train stop pretty much every couple of blocks.
You know, it's at this point, I think it's two
dollars and ninety cents, but you can imagine just how
easy it is to get where you're going, and it's
quick and accessible. So all of us just took the train.
So I never really felt called to I guess culturally,
like the culture of New York, to learn to drive,

(04:13):
to have a car, if you know anything about the
parking as well, that's not an easy thing. New York
is very expensive as well, so it's not easy to
have a car in New York City. So it just
wasn't something I had access to. I did have my
license in high school because it was a prerequisite, which
is great, but being that I didn't have a car,

(04:35):
I've learned just enough to pass the test and get
the license, But then after that, it wasn't much practicing
happening for me.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
And so when I moved.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
To Oregon three years ago, I realized, oh my goodness,
I'm gonna need a car. There's no train here and
I can't just jump on a three or the two.
And it's not that type of city. It's a walkable city,
but transportation isn't like the main thing here. So had
to get my car and to be learning in my

(05:06):
forties a pretty scary skill like driving was very overwhelming.
Actually was more overwhelming than I anticipated. And that's kind
of what I've been sharing on the friend zone, just
the journey of learning to drive in your forties.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Absolutely yeah, and I think it's something we take for granted.
I mean, I grew up in Louisiana, so like not
in a walkable place very much country. I mean you
could walk, but like to get anyway, seriously, you needed
to be able to drive. Yeah, so we ain't to
take driver's dad in high school and drive pretty soon afterwards.
But if you do grow up in a city like
New York, that is not the expectation. Now now, I'm

(05:44):
just curious, so to take the tests in New York,
what are you driving? If most people don't have cars,
there's the state of cars.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
You have a license, Okay, if they had their own cars,
I guess they.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Assume mostly workers aren't going to have a car, So
I think maybe they make concessions considering I definitely did
not have a car.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
I know for a fact, I.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Didn't borrow anyone because no one had a car. So yeah,
I think if I remember correctly, the exam had its
own car and you just kind of rolled with it.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, got it right.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
So now that you have found yourself in Oregon, you know,
having to develop the skill that you had not for
a while. What are some of the specific fears that
have come up for you around driving?

Speaker 2 (06:24):
Oh? Man, I think the biggest one for me was
the highway.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
That one was the one that when I would get
on the highway, like I'd noticed, my shoulders would be
high and I'd have to tell myself, like lower your
shoulders and breathe. I talk to myself a lot while
I'm driving. The cool thing is a lot of our
listeners who have also been driving for a very long
time have given me a lot of amazing tips just
sound like the best apps to use. That kind of

(06:52):
gives you more of a heads up on which side
to get out of so you're not as worried about
exiting or entering or And that's been really cool, just
like the community we've created and there was no judgment.
It was kind of like, hey, we got you learning
the thing. So that's been really cool. But I'd say
the Highway is probably the one that even now I'm

(07:16):
about to hit a full year of driving by myself,
and I still kind of feel the little pings in
my body whenever I have to merge onto that highway.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
And so I wasn't aware that there were apps that
would plan out your route and it tells you, like
what lane to be in to make the exit.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Exactly. Yeah, I just using the Google Maps.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
Some people liked ways, some people didn't, But a lot
of the maps they kind of have these arrows to
let you know, hey, in this many miles, you're gonna
you know, exit all right, and stay on the left
lane and stay on the right lane. It kind of
will just tell you, even while you're driving, get to
the third lane or move to the second lane. And
that's extremely useful when you're already kind of panicking on,

(08:03):
oh my goodness, am I gonna make it to the
lane I need to be in in the exit time?
You know, it's just like all the things that kind
of kick up so helpful, you know, technology becomes helpful
in them.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When you've started kind of relearning to drive,
did you take additional like classes? Is it a friend
or family member who's been helping you, Like, how did
you reacclimate yourself to the process of driving.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
I will say.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
This, Yeah, my partner definitely got in the car with
me just to make sure I was okay. But it
was surprising that I didn't forget in all those years.
I mean I had to be seventeen when we first
took the test. Obviously eighteen when you use your license.
But in all those years, I think I maybe drove
a couple of time throughout, you know, when you're like

(08:50):
in different cities as you get older, but not the
way I'm driving now. And when I got in the car,
it kind of was like riding a bicycle. All came
back to me, just the reflex of like knowing how
to adjust the mirrors and how to adjust the chair.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
And making sure you could see everything.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
With clarity and knowing where everything is and making sure
you know how to use it and all the things
that you'll need while you're on the road. But yeah,
I was surprised. I was pleasantly surprised that it kind
of just like all came back to me how to
turn properly, like I was turning and driving, you know, slowly. Yeah,
but I was doing it, and to me, that was

(09:30):
the coolest part.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
I will say, people.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
Get really angry when you drive at the speed limit.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Depends on what lane you're in, right, Like if you're
all the way over to the left, people are expecting
you to be going superfest right.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
But even on the street just normally like not because
the highway that's.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Kind of expected, right, people are gonna get annoyed, and
you know, but I mean just the everyday city streets,
I found that people would hank it me.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
I kind of act a lot.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Of rage in people by driving the speed limit or
even going above.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
And I had to actually have a conversation.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
With myself because I found myself feeling like, oh, well,
maybe I should drive faster, but then I'm like, no,
I have to drive at the speed that is legal,
and then I'm comfortable with right now, Like I'm still learning,
and I've had to really fight to not feel pressured
by the middle fingers coming.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Up at me and people yelling, and I'm like, whoa.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
The rage that this activates just it was like interesting
to me, and it gets so angry.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
I'm literally just driving, yeah, steed limit.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
That's something that I've also had to learn, And I
talked about that on the show, and we got a
lot of feedback with people saying, oh, yeah, I get pissed,
like we got places to be.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
People got things to do, Like nobody got time for
you to me driving like a turtle.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Wow. I feel like that is something that we always
hear about road rage, right, but I think definitely throughout
the pandemic and now like I feel like people's rage
has like increased a lot of it probably doesn't even
have to do with like being on the road rageful
about all things.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah, I think it's it's misdirected, and you know, I
try to to consider that, but at the same time,
it's like overwhelming as someone that is developing, like working
through fears that are kicking up for me, and then
having to also quote unquote accommodate people's rage on the
road for whatever it is that they are dealing with.

(11:29):
They don't know if like I'm a new driver, they
don't know if I'm just not a great driver, or
if I'm older, like it's just automatic anger.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
That's been probably one of the most interesting things that
I guess I didn't consider that's a new driver.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
So is there any anxiety that has popped up for
you around like parking initially, Yes, because it's that feeling
that everyone's watching you.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, you have to do it quickly and perfectly, and
you can't waste time.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Especially I will say Oregon is much calmer than New
York because in New York you really don't have time
to waste when you're parking, like there's gonna be cars
behind you lining up, honking, people yelling, cursing, like y'all
are you know? New York's a different beast. But Oregon,
I will say, for the most part, because there's less traffic,

(12:22):
I can find little places to practice, you know, Like
that's what I did the first couple of weeks, Like
I went to like a target parking lot and just
practice pulling and pulling out, especially if it's two cars
next to each other, Like can you pull it in
without being too close and still being able to.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Get out the car.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
I practiced some like residential areas that had a lot
less cars and traffic and kind of put myself in
that position to feel comfortable, and.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
I think that's what helped me out.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, what about like backing into a spot in parallel parking,
like to me, those feel like more advanced.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Gil I'm not at the backing up with.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
I make excuses like, oh, I'd prefer to just pull in,
but I'm just.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Not there yet.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
Parallel parking surprisingly came natural, I'd say, like for some
reason my brain was able to understand the movements of it,
like the technical aspects, and so that is okay.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
I think what I'm still learning though, is gauging the space.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
You know, because I drive an SUV. So it's like,
are you comfortably able to park in this space or not?
Because you have to decide that so quickly, you know,
as you're pulling up to it and working on those muscles.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Well, I don't personally, I also pull in.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
I think it's.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, my husband like prepares to back into stuff, and
I'm like saying necessary, and it's like, oh, you know,
if it's like a concert or something you want to
be able to drive out.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
That makes me feel about it.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, You're not alone in it at all. Right, Knowing
what I know of you, like you exude like this easefulness,
like your whole goal is to head thing as easeful
as possible. This feels very like in the face of that, right,
like nothing about driving really is easeful, especially when you
are at first learning. So how have you kind of
reconciled this like very difficult thing that feels very against

(14:15):
how you normally show up in the world.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
I mean, that's the hard part.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
There's no way to make it easeful. Like it's just
a part of life that's not easeful. And I think
that it's like it's like anything. It's like there's gonna
be some things rand that you just can't control and
you still have to be a part of and it
hasn't been joyful. You have to relax because I just
feel so tense in a lot of moments when I'm driving.

(14:38):
It's slowly starting to dissipate because I think I'm finding
more trust.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
In my skills.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
And that's the thing where you're learning something, it's scary
to feel like you don't know what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
But I'm trusting myself more. I'm trusting my defensive driving.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
That's the biggest one thing, because you might trust your
own skill set, but you also don't have control of
the life other cars around you, Like I said, their
rage or even just their skill set. There's just so
much that you have to consider when you're on the road,
you're in this big metal thing going at insane speeds
or at least the cars around me are. And so

(15:16):
it's the one thing I have to say, Like it's
not useful, but I do do that help me.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Like I drive with.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Like a blanket wrapped around me to help me stay grounded.
I have a diffuser that diffuses essential oils that call me.
I make sure I have like a driving playlist that
is songs that call me, you know, so like I
can control the aspects that I can control, and then
the rest.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
I'm just at the mercy of driving, Like that's just
what it is. I try my best. Yeah carry, Yeah,
it here is.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
And I think you bring up a good point around
like when you're learning new skills. But I think about
like some skills are very different than others, right, like right,
some of them are safe, exactly, Like we can have
anxiety about public speaking, but likely nobody's gonna die if
you forget your words. This feels very different because the
level of controlling what you're doing, but also the other
drivers really pushes you.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yes, And I think it has been a huge learning
lesson for me because one thing about a person like
me that does like ease is that I can have
control issues because you think that you can control every
aspect of your life to make it quote unquote easeful.
And for the most part, I do have a pretty
easeful life, but I also have to leave room for

(16:37):
the parts that are just not gonna be that way
because it's just not realistic, you know, like it's just
not life in its full range.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
I guess you'd say.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
And I have to be fair and realistic and flexible
with those aspects.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
And like, I think that's why I stayed away from
trying to drive for so long.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Because I knew that it was an aspect of life
that was like scary and out of my control and
all of the things.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
And so I don't know what clicked this year because.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
I have been living here for three years, but it
just it was this year that's something clicked.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
I don't know what it was, but it.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
Was like the first day of April and I literally
told my partner because we had been driving a little
bit here and there, but I was like, I'm getting
in the car today and I'm going by myself.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
And he was like, okay, I'm like I'm gonna do it.
To do list. I made a to do list in
the notes.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
App of like five things I wanted to do, like
drop off a package, go buy this perfume I wanted
at the mall. Like I just like wrote five little things,
and I told myself that I was going to get
in the car and knock out those five things on
my to do list and not come home until they
were done. And I did that, and I felt so
proud because it was so hard, and I wanted to

(17:52):
cry and I was trembling for most of it, but
I did it. I remember I came and parked in
front of my house. I just started clapping. I was
in that car clapping so hard, and I was like,
you did it.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
You did it.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
Like it just was like and I guess that's the
thing about hard things, right, It's like you do them
and then you're just like so proud of yourself for
having the adurance and the bravery to just do it.
I'm in my forties, Like there are people my partners
started driving when he was like thirteen, like just around
with his uncles and stuff, and so his skill set

(18:27):
is like it's like light years ahead of mine, and
I have to not feel I'm catching up to anyone
else and just be excited that I'm developing this thing
that I was not able to do before. And that's
been really cool.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, And I think that that is the beauty, Like
my therapist's heart is like beaming, right, because that is
what happens when we do hard things, the things that
we're afraid of, right, Like you finally learn that, hey,
it was scary, but I did it right, and so
that then builds this confidence and a muscle to continue
to do difficult things. I think that we may be.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Afraid of pride to see the progress.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
No, I'm definitely not the best driver yet, and I
still have so much to learn and so much to
work through. But I went from like creating that to
do list and trying to get through it that day
to now it's not even a second thought, Like if
we need groceries.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
I'm jumping in my car and going and getting them.
I'm driving myself to the gym.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
And it's actually been really helpful in me taking better
care of myself, you know, like I'm able to do
the things I need to do for myself, and I
feel like, oh, that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's like an added bonus to my quality of life.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
And so that in itself inspires me to keep learning
and keep growing, trying to get better. And you know,
I still will sometimes go off into a parking lot
and practice because you can never get too comfortable. I
know people that have been driving for twenty years that
still feel scared. Then they tell me that they're like yeah,

(19:58):
or they still don't feel comfortable, like you said, backing
up or parallel parking, and I'm like, okay.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
That actually helps me to.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
Not assume that I have to be this perfect driver
within the year or else it's like I wasted my time.
It's like, no, you just gotta do what you gotta do.
Keep going and it's been great.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, more from our conversation after the break. So for
the other two years that you've been in Oregon, Fran
had your partner just been driving you around taking uber
so you were just kind of managing with it a

(20:40):
combination of BOTHA was able, he would take me, and
if he wasn't around or wasn't able, I would jump
in an Uber or I have a few friends out
here at the drive.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
So usually if we were going somewhere and they would
just like come and scoop me.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
And there were times where like if my partner was
out of town for work or for family things, our
car would be sitting in front of my house and
here I am having an uber pull up behind it.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
To pick me up, and I just was like, girl,
that started.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
Kind of letting me know, like, you guys paid for
this car. You know you saved up for this car,
Like for it to be sitting there catching dust just
because your partner isn't in town. It was affecting me emotionally.
But for some reason I couldn't do it.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
I don't know what it was.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
I had such a block, like nothing in me wanted
to get in that car, and nothing in me like
And my partner would ask and say, hey, let's go
to a park, and I would always say no, and
he was just like, why are you so resistant?

Speaker 2 (21:43):
I'm like, I'm just scared. There's really no way around it.
I'm scared and I don't feel ready.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
And sometimes if he would catch me on a more
open day, I would say okay, and we'd like drive
a little.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
But I'd be in such a panic.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah that it just wasn't something I was like, how
could I do this, like how am I supposed to drive?

Speaker 2 (22:04):
And I'm so scared to do this?

Speaker 3 (22:07):
And then you know there's an added element of like
I'm so much older and feeling like I'm late can
developing that skill, and am I just going to be
this nervous driver because I'm older and I locked in
a little too late, Like just all the things that
your mind kind of plays around stories you create, all
the stories. Like I said, I don't know what hit
in April of this year. I don't know if it

(22:29):
was like we were in quarantine for all those years,
which was kicking up a lot of emotional things, and
maybe there was like an element of freedom that a
lot of us were feeling this year of needing like.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Breakout of this fog.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
And I feel like it may have tied in with
that of that feeling of like I was in this discomfort,
in this sort of restricted space for so many years
and using that as a crutch almost and then this
year something happens. I just busted out of it and
got in that car by myself. I said, what do

(23:06):
they say, do it scared?

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Do it scared? I? Sure did that?

Speaker 3 (23:10):
You did?

Speaker 2 (23:11):
I was like, not kidding you?

Speaker 3 (23:13):
In my hands were trembling, But I've learned to talk
myself through it, like out loud, I'll talk to myself,
like I'll say, what's kicking up? Or if I make
a mistake, you know, obviously they are mistakes that I'll make,
and they're scary because you're driving. Like it's consequences of mistakes.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Are very different. You know.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
When you're driving, it's like it's life altering and that's
scary about it, by the grace of God, And no
mistake has been too crazy so far, you know, Like
it's just been little things where maybe I turned wrong,
or there's certain intersections like those four way ones where
y'all have to kind of look at each other and
decide when. Yeah, like you know, just learning those things

(23:57):
that you're not gonna learn until you're in it, Like
a book can tell you one thing, or an instructor,
but like when it's you by yourself having to use
your own driving instinct, something that like you haven't developed
in all this time, Like it's you know, touch and go,
but like there's no other way for me to learn
it than to just like be in it, so I'm trying.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
I also think that there's something really powerful about like
honoring the fear right, like, you know, I just don't
feel ready, right, But then when you were, then you
just jumped in the car, right. So I think that
that's an important lesson too. Then it's okay to kind
of just hold the fear and kind of be with
it without pushing ourselves past where we're comfortable just yet.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Absolutely, And I'm grateful that my partner because I think
that helps too. Write your environment, not making you do
something before you're ready. Because we did have moments where
he seemed frustrated because he wasn't fully understanding, like you
kind of know how to drive. We have a car,
Like in his brain, he's like, what's missing? What's the block?

Speaker 2 (25:01):
But there came a day where he came up to
me and.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Was like, you know, I don't want to make you
feel like you have to do this thing because we
have a car. Whatever block you're feeling is there for
a reason, and I don't want to push that. So
he was like apologetic because he had his moments, but
he's kind of like, girl, what's.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
The issue here?

Speaker 3 (25:20):
So I'm sure that that makes learning hard if you
don't have an environment that supports however long it might
take you to be developing these skills, or if you
don't develop them or you do, like, whatever the case
may be. I'm grateful to have the space to take
as long as I need to and make my mistakes.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
You know.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
I feel really affirmed because I went to pick him
up from the airport the other day. And that's cool too,
to kind of contribute to the ecosystem of our life.
You know, it's like, now I can make those airport
runs or whatever.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
You almost feel like an adult, like and a driving adult. Now, yeah,
you know this was a notch.

Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
Now, are there certain boundaries you put in place because
you are still kind of developing, so you know, maybe
like driving in bad weather or at night, like, are
there certain things you're just like, okay.

Speaker 4 (26:09):
Not yet, right.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
That's funny because we just talked about that.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
I am still not comfortable fully with night driving, especially
not of its raining.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
I do live in the PNW.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
If you know anything about it, it's a very rainy place,
especially what I guess our version of winter is more
so just like rain, a rainy season. So it's like
you have to get comfortable with rain if you're gonna
be in this part of the country where it rains
more than other parts. The other day, I was on
the highway and it started pouring, and I almost felt

(26:45):
like God was like, okay.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Next, can you do you little together and stop saying.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Oh my god. Okay.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
I've been learning by having to do it in a
lot of ways. You can't prepare in a lot of ways,
you know what I mean. You just have to do it.
So I have been put in those situations. But I
jokingly told my friends the other day, like, whenever I
have to do that rain highway night time combo, that
next level that's like ap driving.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
So what wish more people knew about, like learning how
to drive as an adult.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Like we said, it's gonna be scary. A couple of
people reached out to me saying they were grateful that
I've been sharing because it's something they've had a block
with as well, and that they felt a lot of
shame for, you know, and I think there is a
lot of shame because you almost feel like I don't
know how to do this thing. And I think the

(27:41):
biggest thing I'd say is not late. You know, a
lot of us grew up in different circumstances I'm sure
you have your reason. Maybe you didn't have money for
a car, or like me, I didn't have money, but
I also wasn't in a city that was accommodating for
having a car. Like we have our reasons for why
we didn't develop these skill sets, and I think the
biggest thing is to just forget that part, just accept

(28:04):
that part, like that just.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Is what it is. I don't necessarily know how to help.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
Someone work around the shame of that, but I think
for me, it's just the doing, the baby steps, the starting.
Just tell yourself you want to do it, and like
I did that day, just give yourself a to do list,
like maybe just I'm gonna go to the market today
and just buy my groceries.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Instead of ordering them, you know what I mean, Like, give.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yourself one step and you'll be surprised how that one
step will feel so good and you'll be so proud,
and it'll inspire you just to you know, keep adding
more and also doing it is on your own terms.
Like I said, there's still a lot I'm learning, and
I'm taking it very slow. There's no hack, there's no tips.

(28:48):
It's just like you just got to in that car
and it's gonna be scary and you're gonna be.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Trembling, but the only way to do it is to
do it.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you talked about heavy your diffuser you're driving.
Are there other things that have you've incorporated into like
the ritual of driving that have made it, you know,
a little bit more comfortable for you.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
I feel like.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Those are the only things I can say that I've
done for the ritual of driving that really helped me. Also,
just like I am someone that can't have too much
stuff around me when I'm nervous, Like I can't have
anything in the back seat, nothing in the seat next
to me, Like it's almost like I need space to think.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
So I get a.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
Little neurotic about like the state of the car when
I have to get in it. And this might not
be for everyone, but for me, I pray right before
I drive off, I have to do it. I pray
I am just like I talk to the car. I
Dustin and Sante make fun of me for this, but

(29:50):
I talk to the car like this is my homie.
We're about to get on this road together, you know,
And for me, it's like we're coming together to do
this thing and I'm thankful to have a car to
do this with, you know, And I'm always like, tell
the car, like, Okay, we're going to be safe. I
thank God for the ability to do this, the access,

(30:10):
the resources, the bravery, the skill set, and tell them.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
You know, I just hope I get home safely.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
And really just a lot of talking to myself, like
talking myself through it. And it don't matter how cooky
you might look in the car talking to yourself. I'm
sure people have pulled up like is she good?

Speaker 1 (30:30):
I loves it happening over there?

Speaker 2 (30:32):
What's going on it?

Speaker 3 (30:33):
You know, and do whatever. For a while, I didn't
play music. It was like I need silence, I need
to breathe, I need to think. I need to see
what I'm like. You know, how to see what you're doing,
you almost need to hear. Is like you need all
your senses to be clear. So it took me a
while to get comfortable with music, and now music is

(30:55):
actually a part of the comfort for me. So it's
funny how as you can developing skill sets, you'll need
to kind of reconfigure what you need to do to
support them.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
And that's been kind of cool to see too. Yeah,
create that little universe in your car.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yes, yes, create that ritual for yourself whatever it looks
like right for you, it's the blankets and diffusers. For
other people, it may be something different.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
You know what I mean, some water, some tea, like
just get it, yeah, get it going in there.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
As long as you're getting in there and driving.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
You know, right right, whatever helps you get in the car.
So there's the like mechanics of driving. But there's also
all this other stuff associated with cars, right, like what's
the tire pressure? It's the tank full? Like these lights?
Me has that like pumping gas? Yes, So has that
added to your anxiety or do you feel like, okay,
these are things I kind of have more control over.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
No, that's absolutely. I'm actually glad you mentioned that, because
that is part of the thing of like feeling comfortable
with your car and a lot of That's what I
did was that even before I started driving, getting on
the road, I looked up like YouTube videos about my car,
literally like what do different lights mean?

Speaker 2 (32:10):
I looked up the reading manual.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
I know not everyone's gonna do that, but for me
and how my brain works, it's like, if I'm gonna
be in this machine, I need to know how to
use this thing. I need to know what each light
that is possibly gonna kick on means.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
And once it does, what does that mean?

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Luckily for me, the only thing that's turned on is
the tire pressure one, which you know, wasn't as scary.
I just at first I was like, oh my god,
there's a car about to like my tires about to
blow up in a highway. I didn't know exactly what
that meant, like how much time do I have? What
does that mean? And then you learn too that there's
a lot of nails on the street that mess with

(32:47):
your tires, which is like, where are all these nails
coming from?

Speaker 1 (32:51):
All these nails coming from?

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Any nail?

Speaker 4 (32:55):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Like from the great question around the city? Right?

Speaker 3 (32:58):
It's trippy to me, so, you know, learning about that,
I will say, that's a little scary. Is like the
cars are very technologically advanced now, right, like you have
smart cars, and to me that's a little scary too,
like to be so reliant on this screen.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
And the other day my GPS screen went.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Black for a couple seconds while I was on the highway,
kind of like needing to know where I was going,
and my heart sank because I'm in the highway literally.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Relying on needing to know, needing this app to tell
me what exit and what lane.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
And it kind of also taught me like, hey, you
also have to develop skills outside of the technological aspects
of the car, you know what I mean, Like, yeah,
you can rely on them, but like you see how
the screen just went black, how it knocked you out.
So now I try to park my car without relying
on the cameras. Well, I got and a lot of

(34:00):
tips on driving places and not necessarily always relying on
the GPS to show you every way to get there,
you know, like having plan b's.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
It's a lot of work to be a key driver.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
The car is also like technologically saving, like you're basically
driving a computer, right, and so it's not just like
the gas it's like, okay, if this thing goes out,
like what all can I do with this car now?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Right?

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah? And having to have these like backup plans for
what happens when the computer crashes, so.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
Absolutely and just and also you know, the biggest thing
too is like, particularly with parking, right, a lot of
us do rely on these cameras. I think it's a
disservice to like your own ability to kind of rely
on technology to help you with everything.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Like I do think it's useful and I'm grateful.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
Because obviously it makes it a lot easier to see
the car buying me on the screen. But also I
just don't want to rely on it where let's say
my camera's not working one day, then I feel like
I can't park, Like I don't want to that type
of driver. And so it has been a learning of
like being thankful for the technology, but also not allowing
myself to be like a sitting duck without it, you know,

(35:11):
and figuring out how to do that. If you want
to be a great driver, it's like you're going to
put in some work, Like I get it now.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
I thought you got it and figured it out. They're
just so high tech and it's like interesting to try
to keep up.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Right, right, Yeah, And I think as a newer driver,
like your appreciation for it, I think it is probably
different than somebody who's been driving since they were fifteen,
right right.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Well, almost like takes it for granted too exactly.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, I do this, yep.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
But it's been cool, you know.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
I think for my mental health that I think was
like really helpful this year to have this new goal.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
A lot of our goals.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
Are very work oriented, and when people ask you, you know,
what do you have planned for the year, we normally
are discussing like business or like creative project or things
that we want to tap into. But it felt kind
of nice to have a goal that like, I wasn't
making money off of. This wasn't a business plan. It
was like solely for me as a human, like just

(36:13):
human development. And I kept saying, this is a big
human development year for me, you know, And I don't
think I have had years like that in a long
time because I normally am so work oriented, and it
felt kind of nice to just have this project that's
just for me, like you know, me to elevate I guess,

(36:35):
my experience as a human being. And that's been really cool.
It almost makes you be like, Okay, what's.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Next, noxt, Like what is you have next human development goal?
Is there like a driving goal that you have, or
like okay, I want to do a road trip or
that's you know what you're thinking.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yeah, Like I went on a road trip with a
friend of mine and it was cool to be able
to contribute to the legs of it, you know, and
she's like, I'll take this part, you take that part.
But I think it'd be really cool to be that
person that just packs my bags, you know, throws them
in the trunk and comfortably drives for six hours or
eight hours. Like I'm impressed when I think of people

(37:13):
driving for that long. The most I've done is maybe
forty five an hour. You have to be so alert,
send so many things to consider for that long.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
So thinking of like.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Six hours or three plus hour road trips, that's definitely
next on the docket for me, just like the endurance
I guess of these skill sets and adding on, like
we went camping and that was really cool to pack
up the car and drive to the camp site, you know,
and like hello and build our little worlds. And I'm

(37:46):
just like, ah, this is so cool. Like the access
and freedom that being able to drive gives you has
been like my favorite part because now I'm just looking
for things to get into, Like I'm a love sex.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
What can I visit?

Speaker 1 (38:00):
What's the new adventure now?

Speaker 2 (38:02):
And I love that because that's a lot of why
I moved here.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
You know, people felt Oregon was random and it was
but I was looking.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Forward to the access to nature.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
I'm coming from New York, you know, concrete jungle, and
so it's been cool to now finally have a skill
set that can contribute to me enjoying why I moved
out to Oregon.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
So this may be another skill that you're not quite
comfortable with yet. But what's been your experience with like
vackseat drivers? Right, So, now that you have the experience
of knowing what it's like to drive, what's it like
for you to have people in the bag saying like, what, dude,
you know do all this?

Speaker 3 (38:40):
I will say this, The only one I've had that
I felt that way with was my partner, because he's
been in the car with me the most. I've only
driven two of my friends, okay, and they were more
so excited for me the whole time and being like,
oh my god, the pitch you that I can honor say.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
They didn't share their thoughts.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
On maybe the turn being this way or maybe next time, hey,
none of that. It was just this pure excitement to
see me in a different way, in a way that
they've never experienced and in a way that they know
that I have been working on and excited about now.
My partner, who has been there a little longer, he can't.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Help it something.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
He's kind of the de facto driving instructor at this point,
so he's gonna say something.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
And we've actually had to have.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
Conversations about that, and I said to him, with the
way that I learn, I'd prefer if you kept mental
note and then after, when we're done driving, I'm gonna
ask you always because I do love the feedback, but
not while I'm driving. Yeah, Like, that's the boundary I
had to set because if I'm already nervous, right, and

(39:51):
then you're telling me like and you know, I don't
know what it is about backseat drivers, but the way
they say it always feels nerve wracking. Even if they
say it calm, you just don't land.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Well when you're already nervous.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
So we kind of set that boundary, which has been
really helpful because he'll take mental notes and then he'll
tell me afterwards, like with this turn here, you can't
do that or stop da da da, and it's like okay, cool,
and it's like I'm out of the car, so I
can receive it fully as opposed to feeling triggered or

(40:24):
like emotionally charged by you correcting me in real time
when I'm already doing something i'm scared of, you know,
And that's what works for me. And luckily he received
that and we've been able to do that moving forward,
because I just panic when you're correcting me in real time,
Like it just makes me panic. It doesn't work for
my personality. So I'm glad that we nip that in

(40:47):
the butt.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
So what words of information do you have fran from
maybe other new drivers or those who are still contemplating
kind of getting behind the wheel.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
The biggest thing I'd say is just talk yourself through
what's kicking up for you. If you're feeling shame, then
like have that combo with yourself while you're driving. Like
that really helped me, Like I'm like, what, Like when
I got on the highway, I'm like, Okay, you're so
nervous right now, you're trembling, your shoulders are up, your
breathing is short. What's the scariest part? And like saying

(41:21):
it out loud while I'm in it, for some reason
helped me because it was like I was able to
kind of pinpoint I'm scared of merging. I'm scared that
when I pull up, I'm not gonna be driving fast
enough and the car behind me is gonna hit me,
you know.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
And it's like kind of calling it out.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
And that allowed me to focus on the parts that
scared me so that I can keep working on them to.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
The point that like I've better my skill set and
whatever that fear point is.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
And then I get comfortable over time because now merging,
because I knew it was a scary part, Like now
I've been working on merging, like focusing on the merging,
focusing on the fear of the exits. The only way
you'll know what the scary things are is by like
saying them out loud and giving yourself an opportunity to
be like okay, and then I need to put more
energy into that. Like then I gotta keep getting on

(42:15):
the highway every day, and I gotta merge every day,
and I got to exit every day.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
So I say, like, face it, that's the biggest thing.
Just face it. It's going to be terrified.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
The only way that you'll get better at it is
by doing it. And use me as an example. I'm
only what eight months in, but the difference in my
quality of life in those eight months has been like amazing.
Imagine me in five years. The five years are going
to pass anyways, right, you might as well get a

(42:47):
skill set up in there.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, you know, like you might as well. So hopefully
thank you that's helpful in some way.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, thank you for that, Friand I think it will
be helpful for a lot of people. This has been
such important assets that you've shared. I really appreciate you
kind of you know, talking about your experience. I do think,
you know, especially at our age, like I think it
is hard to like admit these things that like you
think everybody else does, it can't bring about a lot
of shame. And so I think every time we take

(43:15):
the opportunity to throw the door open on this scary
secret thing, it lets a lot of other people in, right,
And so I really appreciate you being so open about
your experience.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
Absolutely, And you know, people throw terms around like late
bloomer and it's like going in here, and so you
know it's blooming at some point. Like I said earlier,
we have our different reasons for why, and so a
lot of us are so quick to just feel so
weird about things, and so like you said, kind of
opening that door up. I'm hoping somebody listening to this

(43:46):
is like, you know what I can You know I
can do it for two just eight months in right?

Speaker 1 (43:54):
So, where can people stay connected with your friend with
your website? Where can we listen to the friend Zone
tell us how to extend touch?

Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah, so I'm hey, Frian Hay across the board. Website
handles been the same for many years, and don't forget
to check us out on the friend Zone podcast, which
drops every Wednesday.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
I'm on there with my co hosts, Dustin Ross and
Assante and we drop every week.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
We're nine years in so there's a lot to catch
up on if you're unfamiliar. And those who do listen, hey, y'all, yeah,
that's really it. That's where they can fire me.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Thank you, Fran. We will be sure to include all
of that in this show notes. Thank you for spending
time with me today.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Thank you talk to Joelcord pleasure.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
It was such a pleasure hearing from Fran. Our candor
and vulnerability really helped cashurize and often overlooked experience for
city dwellers and even our younger generations. Even amongst the
TBG team, I learned there were dissenting attitudes around driving.
To get more context into what informed driving anxiety, I
want to just speak to a specialist entered doctor Jamika Moore.

(45:03):
Doctor Moore is a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in
treating anxiety disorders using evidence based treatment approaches. She treats
a range of anxiety and co occurring disorders with a
special interest in obsessive compulsive disorder phobia, is in social anxiety.
Today she gets in depth with me about the symptoms
and solutions for driving anxiety. Thank you so much for

(45:25):
joining us sector.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
Moore, Hi, thank you, thank you for having me. I'm
so happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
So I'd love to hear a little bit more about
your practice. I know you work quite a bit with
treating anxiety concerns. Can you tell me more about your practice?

Speaker 4 (45:39):
Yes, So, I specialize in treating OCD and anxiety disorders.
I really enjoy doing exposure work. Most of my clients
are presenting with an anxiety disorder, a lot of OCD,
a lot of phobias, social phobia is best what my
specialty is, and I really enjoy doing this work. I
love that.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
I love that. So today we're going to be talking
primarily around like driving anxiety. So is this something that
you see pretty frequently in your practice?

Speaker 4 (46:06):
You know, I will say OCD is primarily what I see.
But I do get my driving phobia clients in because
I do exposure work, and so people will come in
and we have to run a protocol for them because
they are experiencing anxiety on highways, a lot of avoidant behavior,
not wanting to actually drive, so getting a lot of
accommodation from family members and friends. I think that if

(46:28):
I've seen an increase over the last couple of years,
I don't think so, But I do think that it
seems to be that there are populations of people just
aren't driving as much, or they're delay in driving, Like
I'm just not getting their licenses when we did when
we were sixteen, we were excited to go. But I'm
noticing some delays in my college age students.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Really, Now, what would you attribute that to you? Because
you're right, like I do feel like there's always been
this excitement of like freedom is associated with kind of
having your own So maybe people don't need to Is
that what you would think?

Speaker 4 (47:01):
Yeah, I think the technology definitely plays a role. I
think that depending on your school program as well. Some
people don't actually have driving education is part of their
core curriculum in high school, so parents might have to
finance that separately, which also might delay getting a license
because you just don't have it automatically built into your
academic program.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Got it Okay? Okay, So can you talk to me
about like some of the things behind the scenes that
really drive anxiety related to driving. What are some of
the kind of underlying thoughts.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
Well, I think, first of all, what's happening is people
have a lot of catastrophic thoughts connected to driving, and
so if you imagine worst case scenario, you're going to
get an accident, you'll get injured, you will die. Those
really generate a lot of anxiety, and so you can
understand why people would avoid driving if that's what your
mind is telling you is going to happen. I also

(47:54):
think that sometimes people have anxiety modeled for them. If
you have a parent or family member who might have
had some driving issues and a lot of anxiety, you
might have saw that as a child and have come
to associate driving with anxiety because of how your parents
actually modeled that for you. So I think you can
see it in your thoughts. If you know other people

(48:15):
who've gotten it to car accident, that can also create
some anxiety for you. Even if you yourself have been
in an accident, you can have some trauma connected to
that as well, because you've experienced a situational issue that
has resulted in some anxiety.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
I appreciate you offering that, doctor Moore, And I feel
like this is always the tricky part with like treating
anxiety is you know there is some rational thought this
is a serious vehicle, like you could cause damage to
yourself for other people if you're not like responsible. But
what is the line, right, Like, how do you help
clients differentiate what's a rational kind of like Okay, this

(48:52):
is responsible versus something that is more on the anxiety
side of the spectrum.

Speaker 4 (48:58):
I think that's a really great question. We do what's
called cognitive restructuring, and part of cognitive restructuring is helping
clients identify those thoughts. And a specific technique would be
identifying cognitive errors or distortions, because those are where we're
going to see a lot of the more exaggerated catastrophic thoughts.
Before I do any course of exposure work, I actually

(49:19):
start with psycho education on what is anxiety and really
doing like a metacognitive process like thinking about thinking, so
that clients can really understand how their thinking patterns will
directly influence their mood and their actions. And so we
do a thorough assessment of back first to be able
to tell like, Okay, we want to have respect for driving,

(49:40):
because you know other people on the road, and so
there are some natural concerns that may arise, but typically
when it gotting into the phobic zone, we're seeing some rigid,
catastrophic thoughts that we want to challenge and help the
clients create alternative thoughts.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
It's been some time since I took a driver's plaz
I feel like maybe and I don't know if they
incorporate this into education for drivers now, like helping to
incorporate that mental health component.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
I think so too when I don't know that they
do that as well, because typically it's not a problem
until it's a problem, right, right, And so I think
that handling some of that on the front end of
like driving is scary. We want to validate your feelings,
but we also want to help you avoid some traps
that you may get into that can intensify anxiety symptoms

(50:28):
for sure.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
M H.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
So you talked about doing a lot of exposure therapy
with your clients, which is kind of like a subdomain
I guess under CBT. Can you tell us a little
bit more about like CBT and maybe specifically about exposure
therapy as it is related to driving.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
Okay, So generally speaking, kind and new behavioral therapy really
helps you examine your thoughts to understand how they influence
mood and behavior. And so the scene really works on
thinking and the B part is broy, you'll get your
exposure therapy is how you want to make behavioral changes,
and that could be anything from driving, social skills. Now,
as it pertains to exposure, you can't treat phobias without

(51:07):
exposure with therapy. It just doesn't work. And exposure with
therapy is directly confronting whatever that fear is, if it's driving,
if it's storms, and we create like a graduated plan
in order to help client work on their own specific zone,
because not all driving phobias would be created the same, right,
Some people might be afraid of being a passenger in

(51:29):
a car. Some people might be afraid of storms or
highways or being in unfamiliar places, and so the plan
is going to be specific to the individual and what
they're actually struggling with. And we have steps, right like
these little steps that we take. So, for example, let's
say someone just has a fear of driving in general.
We may start with a parking lot where no one's there,

(51:51):
and they may have an exposure buddy that will come
along with them, maybe they help them get there so
that they're free to practice in that specific parking lot.
And then we may go to a busy residential street
or not so busy residential street. Next we may gradually
go to a busy or residential street, and then we
can eventually work our way up to highways. And so

(52:12):
it takes time, it takes a lot of patience, it
takes a lot of compassion. But you see people grow
in their confidence and that's something that's amazing to watch
because they start off scinctious and then they get better
over time. And the point I want to make about
exposure therapy, this is not about anxiety reduction. Like I
don't want my clients to think that they're going to
come to treatment and never experience any anxiety connected to

(52:36):
whatever the phobia is. This is about learning to manage
your anxiety while doing the thing, if it's driving or
conversation or test taking. Right. So some people will come
in and they're like, I don't want anxiety, Like I
just to them, treatment is I never feel any anxiety
at all? And I'm like, well, I'm probably not signing
that treatment plan because we need to learn how to

(52:58):
manage this. We're capable of handling our emotions.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
You know, yeah you said that, because we know that,
like some anxiety is good, right, Like some anxiety is
what makes you focus so that you are understanding how
to be responsible on the road, or it's what gets
us all the couch when we know we need to
be studying for test, right, But it is learning how
to manage it and like, so that it doesn't take.

Speaker 4 (53:18):
Over in your life, right, Trying to get people to
function in side of that optimum zone of anxiety. Now,
when people are experiencing panic, which happens some people have
panic attacks while they're driving, we do want to help
them regulate to be able to bring that anxiety down
to something that feels more manageable. But even still, there
has to be a willingness to experience anxiety in order

(53:41):
to get better. Like that's just how it goes.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Yeah, so I love to hear more about like what
treatment looks like because you know, therapists who practice exposure
therapy are not always in the office, right, Like we
are not practicing kind of a parallel park in your office, right,
And so what does that look like? There's some kind
of additional insurance you have because if you're in the
client talk to me through all of those things.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
Yes, so you definitely can do that kind of NBG
work directly hands on with your clients where you may
be in the car, and you definitely want to make
sure your insurance is on point with that because you
know you have to keep yourself covered and protected. And
so yeah, some therapists won't meet clients in the wild.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
If you will.

Speaker 4 (54:20):
Some will do assistance over the phone before they're getting
into the exposure. But I will see a lot of
my client's exposure work is independent. When it comes to driving,
we work through a plan. They know exactly what the
homework assignment is, and then they go do it on
their own. Because with the exposure work, what you want
is repetition and you want this to be happening frequently,

(54:41):
Like anything that you want to learn, you can't practice
in September and not pick it up again until January.
So they should be doing like exposures three five times
a week. And so because of that, it will be
hard for a therapist to assist with all of that.
And that's where exposure buddies come into place, someone who
can assist and be there to help at least in
those initial phases of treatment. However, I would fade out

(55:04):
an exposure buddy over time, because otherwise they become a
safety behavior like a safety person oh crutch that someone
uses which could maintain the phobia. And so yeah, people
make decisions, some outside of the office training, some coaching
prior to sessions, but a lot of independent work.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Got it okay. And so you know, I wonder if
you could walk us through maybe like what a sample
treatment plan would be for somebody who maybe is anxious
about driving on the highway right, like anxious about merging
and getting off the exit or getting onto an exit.
Can you talk us through one of those?

Speaker 4 (55:39):
Yes, So I would initially start with just that assessment
of understanding what that specific phobia is in order to
create that plan for it. Then we do a course
of anxiety psycho education, right, like helping people understand what
is anxiety, highlighting the specific symptoms, how anxiety is maintained.

(56:00):
And then we go to the cognitive part, right, I
want to teach some cognitive strategies so that they can
look at those thoughts that increase the anxiety and maintain
the anxiety. And then we go into the exposure plan.
And so with the highway driver, I would even start
with regular driving, right, so like specifically, what is it
about the highway? Is it merging? Is it faster speed?

(56:23):
So we would start practicing some of those smaller exposures
first so that they can get to a highway and say, okay,
we need help merging. Let's find an area in your
town where you have to merge and they do that repetitively,
and okay, if this high speed, let's find an area
in town where you have to account for these high speeds.
And then eventually we work our way up to a

(56:44):
highway that might not be as scary, you know, like
something or something that mimics the highway, and then they'll
practice that, and then we would work our way up
to like the big Dog, which would be the highway
and initially again a therapy buddy what a them, and
then through that repetition, eventually they'll do it.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
So lo, do you have any contact with the exposure buddy.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
Absolutely, because a lot of phobias are maintained through accommodation
from family members and friends and they're think they're helping.
You know, I'll always drive, I'm gonna take over. Don't
worry about it. You don't have to drive, and the
phobia is like, yes, I get to stick around because
this person is accommodating this. In order to stop that accommodation,
I like to meet with the exposure buddy so that

(57:28):
we can say thank you. I know you love them,
But now we're gonna start fading out this support that
you've been given and we're gonna support in other ways.
And also like this is the plan, you're going to
attend on this exposure, but by exposure seven or depending
on where the client is, we're gonna fade you out
and you can again support in different way.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
More from our conversation after the break. Have you heard
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(58:10):
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Sign up now at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
join Patreon for all the details about what we're planning

(58:31):
and to be the first to know when the doors
are open. We can't wait to see you inside. So
let's talk more about the support system. So you've already
talked about like maybe they could be an exposure buddy,
but also need to be mindful that they are not
doing too much accommodating so that the person never challenges themselves.

(58:52):
What other things would you say to your family and
friends around how to support a friend or a loved
one who maybe having some anxiety about driving.

Speaker 4 (58:59):
Yeah, I like to say meet people where they are.
I think we forget a simple question to just say
how can I support you?

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Right?

Speaker 4 (59:05):
Are there phrases that you want me to say or
things that you don't want me to say, because people
get triggered a lot when their anxiety is high, and
sometimes someone will say the wrong thing that they think
is supportive and it's not. So here are safe words.
Here a words of encouragement that you will you know,
be happy to hear during these moments. And here's our
steer clear list where you don't want me to say

(59:26):
these things to you. That's it reminding them of the skills,
like sometimes it's help or say I know you've been
working hard and you got this. Just remember your skills.
You know you can get through it.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Again.

Speaker 4 (59:36):
Some people might not like that, but some people might
find that to be really grounding, like right, I am
working on this. I do have skills and just being
positive and encouraging people can overcome phobias. And I think
like life can get in the way sometimes too, and
so you're trying to learn how to feel more comfortable
on the road you have life hitting you, and I
think sometimes just having someone say you know you got

(59:58):
this and you can you can get through this. I
see you working hard, you know, just stay the course
could be very helpful.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah, so you mentioned something and I hadn't thought about this,
but it does make sense because I also am anxious
about driving in the rain or like you know, when
there's a big storm. But you also talked about like
the need for repetition, and we know there's not like
necessarily a storm all the time. What does the treatment
plan look like when it is something that you're anxious about,
like a storm that you can't necessarily predict for.

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
We can look for Okay, what is it about the storm?
Is it that it's dark? Is it you know, we
can try to recreate some of those situations because ultimately,
remember this is about anxiety management. At the end of
the day, people are really responding to the fact that
they're anxious and they're making negative predictions about what can happen.
So we don't necessarily need a storm in order to

(01:00:47):
work on that part. All we need is anxiety and
the ability to do some cognitive restructuring and reframing, and
then when that storm hits, it's like, Okay, this is
gold time. For some people. It's even the possibility that
a storm might happen right again making predictions, and so
that's why the cognitive restructuring part is helpful too, because
it'll help them address the thoughts that maintain and contribute

(01:01:10):
to the anxiety even in the absence of the specific
stressor got it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
I guess I'm wondering how manageable are the steps because
it feels like there's a lot of things that I'm
thinking about, and I'm also like wanting to be focused.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
On the road.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
So talk to me about how are people practicing this.
How much happens before you even get in the car
versus what you're doing in real time.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
Yeah, a lot's going to happen before you get in
the car. And so when I said I start with
that course of doing some cognitive work first, that's a
lot of session that will go into that. So that's
just not like a one session thing. This is repetition
so that they can learn alternative ways of thinking. Like
those negative thoughts so have to one hundred percent disappear,
and sometimes they won't because they're pretty well conditioned and

(01:01:55):
they're automatic. So what we want are healthier thoughts or
more reason both thoughts to sit alongside both, and eventually,
through the repetition of doing the cognitive restructuring and practicing
those alternative thoughts, you can get some shift to where like, Okay,
this is my primary way of thinking about this, and
those catastrophic thoughts can still be there, but I may

(01:02:16):
no longer engage them anymore. I don't get hooked on
them anymore. I realize that I can have a more
balanced thoughts. So in order for us to have that
way of thinking become a new way of thinking, we
have to have practice. And so that course of treatment
is its own little lame And that's definitely happening before
someone gets in the car, because if you tried, you could.

(01:02:39):
I mean, I'm a big proponent of behavioral treatment. You
can try to skip that stuff and get straight in
the car. But my clients we are driving phobia said
they really appreciated the cognitive work first because it helped
them feel more grounded and they could catch themselves beyond
like every time I drove them going to die. And
then they're like, okay, and that might not be true.
I say that to myself, and I'm realizing it's not true.

(01:03:01):
And even that can help alleviate some of the anxiety
that they aren't activating themselves as much anymore by hooking
on negative automatic thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
So you mentioned, you know, one of the underlying concerns
related to driving anxiety sometimes is that there has been
a previous accident, right, or maybe they were driving or
were in the car with someone else. Is there the
same like cognitive restructuring work that's done with somebody who's
had like a previous accident, or does it look differently
same thing?

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):
They have evidence now to support that driving can be
scary because they've been in an accident. But the predictions
that they're making artist saying it's going to happen again. Right,
They're over generalizing because it happens once, now it's always
going to happen. We still want to work with those
thoughts even if someone has had a car accident, but
we do want to be respectful of the fact that

(01:03:50):
they have had that experience and maybe it coded as
a trauma, maybe it didn't. But we want to tell
our clients even if you've had negative experiences, it doesn't
mean that the treatment doesn't work for you or that
you're going to be necessarily different than someone who hasn't
had those experiences. There's help and there's a relief for
those clients as well.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Are there relaxation or other mindfulness kinds of techniques that
you pair with some of the cognitive stuff to help
the clients manage the anxiety.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
Yes, there's mindfulness and relaxation techniques. I think that's specifically
useful for clients who maybe have panic disorder presenting with
their driving phobia, because they're having panic attacks and so
there has to be some way to work through that
panic attack to alleviate those symptoms. But I kind of
take a different approach with relaxation and mindfulness exercise it

(01:04:41):
when it comes to phobias, because I take the approach
that we need to confront and manage the anxiety. Sometimes
if you make clients think that they have to always
be in some sort of like yoga breathing, I think
that does a disservice to the clients because it conditions
this idea that they need to have no or low anxiety.

(01:05:01):
I take the approach that it's okay if the anxiety
is they're we're learning to live with anxiety versus constantly
needed to be in this state where it's low. And
the reason why if that breathing doesn't work, client wil
panic there are symptoms will go up because they're like
I expected this to work. I'm breathing for in for
out and it's not working that and I'm like, okay,

(01:05:22):
but that's again, if you're making symptom reduction the only
point of the treatment, you do a disservice to clients.
I think, big picture, yes, we want symptom reduction, but
if we're telling clients that they have to have nowhere
low anxiety, that's not a long term strategy because there
is no anxiety free life. And so I'd rather them
expected to show up and be like, Okay, I can

(01:05:43):
drive and be anxious, I can talk and be anxious,
and then once they adopt that mindset of willingness and acceptance,
that also helps them get to more symptom reduction because
you're learning how to live with anxiety versus that expectation
that it has to go way.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
So I wonder if you can talk more about some
of the setbacks that you see people have when they're
working through the treatment plan. It feels like you've come
back to this one multiple times, this idea that there
needs to be no anxiety right, and like having to
kind of reroute them. Are there other things that you
have found that show up that you need to help
clients think through.

Speaker 4 (01:06:18):
The commitment to do exposure people have so many things
going on in their life that they'll just be like,
work went late, Sorry, I didn't do my exposure work
this week. This happened, I didn't get a chance to
do exposure work. So it's that buy in. So the
treatment in and of itself is like, if you're going
to choose to do exposure therapy, you have to kind
of be accountable for yourself to make sure that you

(01:06:39):
are actually going to be able to get the treatment done.
And so scheduling like having people put it in their
calendar is if it's a work meeting that you cannot
miss because if you're not doing exposure, you're not doing
exposure and it you know, then you're in treatment and
you're like, well it's not working. Well, it's not working
because you aren't doing that compone, and then it just

(01:07:00):
continues to feed into that cycle of avoidance. Sometimes people
don't do the exposure homework because they actually just want
to avoid it. They want to get better, but it's here,
it work, and so trying to rectify those two things
and constantly doing accountability checks.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Is there anybody you would say is not a good
candidate for exposure work?

Speaker 4 (01:07:20):
I would say in part of my assessment, I wouldn't
look for deficits to see is this more pure anxiety
with some fear around driving, or do you need to
actually get some skills first before you, you know, are
starting this course of treatment, right, Because if you do
legitimately have some deficits, I would recommend a driving course first,

(01:07:43):
just to be able to like get those skills up.
I wouldn't feel super confident doing exposure therapy for someone
who's in my office saying, while also I just don't
know how to drive because the skill wouldn't work well.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
You know, you make it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
You bring up an interesting point because I think that
that is also really to other skill based anxieties, right,
Like I'm thinking about like public speaking, or you know,
like sometimes our anxiety is fueled because we don't know enough, right,
are there are these other work that we need to
do beyond like the therapy office that can help to
maybe reduce our anxiety. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
Absolutely, Like if you are, it's always identified the deficits.
Even if like let's say someone's driving and we're doing
an assessment and they're like, I don't like driving at night.
It's scared of me. One thing I want to cross
check first, how's your vision? Do you need to make
a doctor's appointment first to make sure your vision is
on point and you're actually not having blurt vision while

(01:08:36):
you're driving, And then that's enhancing the anxiety. And so
it's always looking for deficits, looking for medical conditions first,
so we can roll that out and feel more confident
in moving forward with the treatment plan.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Is there anything related to the work that you do
with driving? For me, is that you think is important
to cover.

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
Biggest points learning how to live with the anxiety and
not coming to therapy thinking that your anxiety is one
hundred percent disappear. Because you don't need your anxiety to
one hundred percent disappear in order to be able to drive,
you can learn how to work with it. I think
that's would be one of the biggest takeaways.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
From this perfect Well, this has been incredibly helpful, Doctor Wore,
Thank you so much. Can you tell us where can
we stay connected with you? What is your website as
well as any social media channels you'd like to share.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
My website is doctor Jamika Moore dot com and you
can find me on Instagram at jam Session. That's jam
Underscore s SSI n D perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.
Thank you so much, Doctor Moore.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Between friends, anecdoto accounts, and doctor Moore's professional analysis, there
were so many gems and how anxiety informed so much
of how we engage with the world. I'm so happy
they were both able to join us and really drive
home pun intended the message of how to overcome your anxiety.
So learn more about friend and doctor Moore. Be sure
to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot

(01:10:03):
com slash Session four oh seven, and don't forget to
text two of your girls right now and tell them
to check out the episode.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Did you know?

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
You can leave us a voicemail with your questions for
the podcast. If you want to suggest movies or books
for us to review, or even give thoughts around topics
you'd like to hear discussed. Drop us a message at
Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let
us know what's on your mind. We just might feature
it on a future episode. If you're looking for a
therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy

(01:10:33):
for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was produced
by Elise Ellis Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Session 407: Driving Anxiety