April 30, 2025 • 52 mins
Today we're joined by educator, writer, and bibliotherapist Emely Rumble, LCSW who's here to share the powerful story behind her debut book, Bibliotherapy in the Bronx. In this inspiring and deeply resonant conversation, Emely explains how the books we read can be a lifeline, a mirror, and a healing balm, especially for young people navigating complex emotional landscapes. From growing up in the Bronx to creating reading circles for healing in underserved schools, Emely has reimagined what therapy can look like for Black and brown communities, centering literature, community, and voice. We’re talking representation, literacy as liberation, and the magic that happens when you see yourself on the page.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session four h nine or Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
afterword from our sponsors. Today's conversation is a very special one.
We're joined by educator, writer, and bibliotherapist Emily Rumble here
(01:23):
to share the powerful story behind her debut book, Bibliotherapy
in the Bronx. In this inspiring and deeply resonant conversation,
Emily explains how the books we read can be a lifeline,
a mirror, and a healing bam, especially for young people
navigating complex emotional landscapes from growing up in the Bronx
(01:43):
to creating reading circles for healing and underserved schools, Emily
has reimagined what therapy can look like for black and
brown communities, censoring literature, community and voice. In this conversation,
we're discussing representation, literacy as liberation, and the magic that
happens when you see yourself on the page. If something
(02:05):
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
or join our patreon for more conversations, add free podcast
episodes and even special giveaways. You can join us at
community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
(02:28):
thank you so much for joining us today, Emily, thank
you for having me. So. I want to talk a
little bit about your love for reading. Can you remember
when you first recognize, like the moment that you were
in love with reading. Was it a particular book, a
particular author? When did you fall in love with reading? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I would say first grade, because that's when I learned
how to read. I loved my first grade teacher, Ms. Parkins.
She was so much fun. She made stories come to
life in her classroom and really imaginative ways we would
put on plays. So I remember first reading Shreganona in
first grade and falling in love with Tommy Depayola, who
(03:10):
was also born and raised in Maridan, Connecticut, where I
was born, and I just thought it was so cool
that there was this children's book author writing about a
witch who was like very loving and ruled by ethics
and morals. And so Miss Parkins would use Streganona's stories
to teach us like character development and moral lessons, but
(03:32):
she always made it fun and so it never felt
like we were being taught how.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
To be good kids, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
But that was really where I fell in love with
reading was in Miss Parkins classroom.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So clearly she did an incredible job instealing the love
for reading in you.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Absolutely she made it so much fun. We never felt
like reading was a chore. I feel like after no
child left behind, we standardized reading, and we made reading
a chore, and we took the imagination and the fun
out of it. Right with the cancelation of programs like
Reading Rainbow, like all of the things that made reading.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Joyful and playful for children.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I'm so grateful that that was such a central part
of my childhood because I had a hard childhood and so.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Being able to go to school, being able to be in.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Classrooms like mss Parkins, that for me was a literary
escape in and of itself.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So it definitely started early for me. Yes, I'm sure
you have seen the millennials and older kind of reminiscing
on the coupons we would get from Peze. The hood
when you read a certain amount of books like that
definitely was a fund of love for reading for me
for sure. I wish they would bring that back me too.
So what does it mean to be a bibliotherapist, Emily?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, So, as a bibliotherapist, I use literature as a
healing tool to support the work that I do with
clients and therapy, and it's really about prescribing literature, whether
that be fiction, self help, memoir, poetry, that's going to
help clients to process emotions, to gain insight into their
life experiences, to how help them discover new perspectives. And
(05:02):
I feel like this is a perfect conversation to have
with you because I've used your books. Sisterhood heals a
lot in bibliotherapy and it's such a culturally responsive bibliotherapy
text because I feel like it's so culturally relevant and
you speak specifically to the dynamics that black women have
in our interpersonal friendships.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And so when I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Thinking about how I'm going to prescribe a book, I
really want to make sure that it's culturally relevant and
that it's not saying, Hey, there's this general framework that
you're going to apply to your life and you're going
to be healed. So it's really about understanding how to
prescribe a text that's going to affirm a client's identity,
that's going to create space for them to imagine and
(05:42):
to pursue their healing on very unique life path.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Thank you for that definition. Can you talk a little
bit about like the similarities and maybe the differences between
like bibulotherapy and something like poetry therapy or art therapy.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Absolutely, So bibliotherapy is under the umbrella of the creative
arts therapy include the likes of art therapy, drama therapy,
music therapy, and the like. So bibliotherapy is really an
expressive creative methodology and it's an intervention that would work
really well for someone who is either naturally a bibliophile,
so someone who's always reading. We have this saying in
(06:17):
the book community. A lot of people will say books
are my therapy, So bibliotherapy is not promoting that. But
what we are saying is that if a client is
an avid reader, if they engage in a personal reading practice,
that is very crucial to their social support system.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
I think of reading for some clients as like a
psychosocial support And this is a great opportunity as a
clinician to come in and say, Hey, what's the last
book that you've read that really opened your eyes to
a new perspective, or what's for us book you read
that made you cry or have such an intense emotional reaction.
Because there's an emotional response, right, we know as clinicians
that there's always a reason underneath.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So under bibliotherapy you would have poetry therapy, which is
its own unique intervention, because we know there's some people
who maybe they don't read full novels, or they're more
drawn to poetry for its symbolism and the literary techniques
that a poet might engage with. I love poetry and
bibliotherapy because it's also a sort of rich sensory experience
for folks to understand how to make connections between what
(07:18):
it looked like, what it felt like, what.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It sounded like right, Like, I also incorporate a lot
of narrative techniques when I'm using bibliotherapy, So just getting
a client to kind of externalize the problem and getting
them to even engage in creative practices characterizing your anger, right,
what color is it, how loud does anger sound?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What's anger's voice like? So there's a lot of neat
ways that a bibliotherapist can engage in this method that
would be really enlightening, not just for the clinician who's
serving a client, but for the client who's already engaging
in this practice at home and in their personal life.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So I'd love to hear about, like how I would
imagine some people seek you out specifically because they want
to do bibulotherapy. Yeah, maybe some clients who you naturally
like in just conversation you find out that they enjoy reading.
So how do you decide, like when to offer bibliotherapy
as an intervention.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, it's interesting because there's so many different pathways. So
sometimes someone's just coming to me.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
For bibliotherapy, absolutely, but then other times I might just
have a therapy client who I've been working with and
maybe we've reached an impasse in the therapy process, or
maybe there's a gap in their psycho educational knowledge, and
I might prescribe a book, or I might say, hey,
let's read this together and see what you think about this,
kind of in the way Sisterhood heals, right, you explain
(08:37):
like the different attachment styles, You explain the life cycle
phases of psychosocial development from Eric Ericson's lens. Like sometimes
it's as simple as that, but other times it's organic,
like in the therapy room. Like I've had clients where
we're in the middle of a really rich conversation or
an emotional one, and they might look at my bookshelf
and be like, oh my god, like that was my
(08:58):
grandmother's favorite book.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Some of my best sessions have happened that way, where
a client, just in the middle of a really rich
therapeutic conversation, they're like, oh my god, you have that book,
and I'm like, oh, yeah, let's you know, go grab
it off the bookshelf.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
What does this book mean to you?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Next thing, they're flipping through it and they're reading something
aloud to me or reading something to themselves, and you see,
you know, when a client starts to sort of elicit
emotion or something meaningful starts to bubble up, we can
use that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And sometimes it doesn't even have to be a book.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I've had rich bibliotherapeutic conversations with clients where we read
song lyrics or where we've just engaged in expressive writing,
which is also a component of bibliotherapy. So anytime that
we encourage a client to journal or to engage in
an expressive writing practice, that's also under the umbrella and
jurisdiction of bibliotherapy as an intervention. So I'm thinking about, like,
(09:48):
oh my gosh, how do you stay on top of
all of the continuing education credits that we have for
our licenses, and now you're also like reading books that
your clients are reading in you know, it feels like
you really have to kind of stay on top of
what's out there to know what to recommend for people.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Absolutely, you know what's so beautiful, doctor Joy.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
When I was doing research for my book Bibliotherapy in
the Bronx, I went to the Schomberg and I read
through the letters of doctor Sadie Peterson Delaney, whose legacy
has been buried, but not anymore because I write about
her legacy.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's very crucial to the history of bibliotherapy.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And it only came into my awareness because I was
reading something that Eleanor Roosevelt had written and she referred
to doctor Sadie Peterson Delaney as the godmother of bibliotherapy.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So quickly I went and googled.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It, and I found out that doctor Sadie Peterson's Delaney
is a black woman who not only was the head
librarian at Tuskegee, but she did such great work there
that she was actually sent to the Schomberg at the
time the one hundred and thirty fifth Street Library through
the New York Public Library System to curate their bibliotherapy collection.
And so when I started reading through the letters of
(10:52):
doctor Sadie Peterson' Delaney and all the amazing work that
she did her relationship to different programs, I mean, I
was reading like a letter that Councy Cullen wrote her
during the Harlem Renaissance, thanking her for using his poetry
working with delinquent youth, like it was so emotional, but
it was beautiful to see the way she curated her
bibliotherapy career like she would build relationships with publishers to
(11:15):
amplify black literature. She played a huge role in getting
the work of Harlem Renaissance authors and poets you know
out there widely known outside of just Harlem. And so
that's sort of the lens through which I've built my
practice literary NYC's I amplify the work of black authors.
I don't get paid for it. It's just the work
(11:37):
that I do because it's also part of my medicine cabinet. Right,
It's like, I want to know what's out there. I
want to be able not to support black writers, but
also like I'm looking for the best medicine for my community.
So I need to know, you know, what's coming out,
when is it coming out? And I'm building relationships with
publishers so that they can know, Hey, I'm an African
American Puyerrican bibliotherapist from the Bronx. I use my plot
(12:00):
form to share public education on this modality as a
healing vehicle for folks. Can we stay connected? So that's
really how I do it, is just by letting people
know who I am, keeping my pulse on what's happening
and publishing, building those relationships so that people know this
is what I do and this is my lane. So
sometimes and I'm grateful for this because I've worked so
(12:21):
harsh and I know, you know, but I'm at the
point now in my career where when a book comes out,
they'll tap me on my shoulder and say, hey, am,
we got this book coming out June twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
We think that you'd love it.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So I'm so grateful to have that now because it's
a synergy that I've had to work for years to
cultivate and trust that I've had to establish within the industry.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
But I'm just really grateful for that. And I'm always reading.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I don't have much of a social life, right like
my girls. I always talk about sisterhod Heels. My girls
are like, we get it. You want to be home reading.
We're coming over with about blah blu war and like,
who we miss you. But I'm always home reading. You know.
It's just me, my clients and my babies. That's really
my life. So I spent a lot of time reading.
And I'm also just an avid reader, you know. I
(13:05):
devour books.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I love reading.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
My grandmother raised me passed away when I was fourteen,
suddenly passed away. I was thrust into foster care, and
I emancipated myself at the age of sixteen.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So literally, when people ask me, like what do books
mean to you, it's like books are literally my family,
Like books raised me, talk about a framework, like I've
read for reasons beyond just literary escapism. Right, Literally, books
safe my life. Yeah, and I love that you are.
It feels like very much walking in doctor Sadie's footsteps
(13:38):
and like continuing her legacy even though you didn't know
about her until you started doing your own writing. That's
so beautiful. Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
It definitely makes me emotional, Like I remember reading through
her letters and just getting at a point where I
just started crying because it just hits different that I'm
thirty nine years old. I've been doing this work since
I was twenty two, Like, how would it have been
to have known about doctor Sadie Peterson is Delaney's legacy
at twenty two? And it just broke my heart because
(14:09):
I'm like, nobody knows her name. That's a problem that
so many of our greats and our heroes are their
legacies are buried, you know, and like I got access
to these archives, but it was because I was writing
a book.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
And so at one point the librarian comes over to
me and she's like, are you.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Are it's Peter, you're crying. So I was telling her
I'm writing a book, I'm biblio therapy. This is my
thing as a therapist, and she was like, oh my god.
So once she connected the dots of what it means
to me to be sitting here at the archive of
doctor Sadie Peterson Slaney's letters, she started crying. So we
were both boohooing, and in true librarian fashion, she was like, okay, girl,
(14:45):
we can't get.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
No ceres on the material riting not unneath our guys,
So tell me more about the process of writing Bibliotherapy in.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
The bronx Oooh man, it's been a long journey. It's
been a deeply personal journey for me. It was hard
to find a publisher who unders what I was trying
to do with the book. Some folks wanted it to
be like a therapeutic resource, very academic. Some folks saw
it as a memoir. And I felt like I needed
it to be both. I needed it to be accessible
(15:12):
to someone who may be just curious about this method
and wants to engage in Biblical therapy in their own
personal practice. But I also wanted it to be educational.
Four clinicians in the field and librarians, we'll do this
work every day. And so the book blends memoir, therapeutic guidance,
and resource curation. So you're going to get a lot
(15:33):
of good, juicy book recommendations and a lot of client
case studies around how I prescribe books and why I
prescribe to this book, and how the medicine and particular
text helped to facilitate a therapeutic process that led to
a client's healing overall. And so this book, for me,
it's my baby. I'm just so excited for the books
to be out there in reader's hands. I've got a
(15:55):
few advanced readers who are reading it now, and it's
beautiful just to hear people say, oh my god, yeah,
I've been using this my whole life. I didn't know
that this is what deblile therapy was, or wow, I've
been doing this with clients and now I get to
deepen my deblio therapy practice as a clinician because I've
got some more tools and that always makes me happy
to hear.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So I wonder if you could give us a bit
of a sneak peek. So when you think about, like
your strategy for choosing books to prescribe for specific clients
depending on what they're going through, how do you choose
the right book and then what kinds of things follow
after they choose the book or after you choose the book?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, so I use my three P method, which is
the presenting problem. So I always want to understand what
a client is coming to therapy for. And we know
this as clinicians. A client might come in and say
that the problem is one thing, and then we uncover
along the way that it's actually something else at the
root of the problem. So presenting problem and then preferences.
I want to understand who my client is as a reader.
(16:54):
Number one, Are they a reader? Are they someone who
would just pick up a book casually because they enjoy reading?
If they're not, then what is something that they do
engage with?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Do they like poetry? Do they like hip hop? I
do a lot of hip hop therapy.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
We're always reading hip hop lyrics, writing our own lyrics.
I work with a lot of black men in the
Bronx who are also very creative artistically, So sometimes it's that,
But I just want to get a sense of who
the client is as a reader. What they gravitate to
in books are their auto by authors for you that
you already feel emotionally connected to, and anything.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
They write you're buying you're reading.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Also, is there anything that you avoid in books? That's
really important because for some clients, we want to be
very careful that we're not prescribing something that's going to
be very triggering or even just in general mindful of
sort of some of the literary devices that author my
employ to tell a story. Right, So like if I
have a client who is very easily activated by symbolic
(17:52):
language or who maybe struggles with reality orientation, I'm not
going to be prescribing something that's like very poetic nature, right,
Like we're going to try to go for something that's
more like concrete.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Specific in nature.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I do an intake essentially with what I call of
reading intake that sort of addresses these different factors so
that I can get to know who my client is
as a reader. I create like a profile for myself
and I am a spiritual therapist. So sometimes I engage
in bibliomancy, where I just set an intention based on
what the client has shared with me about their history,
(18:26):
about their preferences, and then I'll pull a few texts
just using my own intuition, and we'll see what we
pull and see what comes up. And then that's where
my final step comes in, and that's prescription. And that's
where I actually decide, like, Okay, this is going to
be the prescription. And sometimes it's a book, a full novel.
Sometimes it's a self help text. Sometimes it's just an
(18:48):
excerpt from a book or an interaction between characters. I
do a lot of pulling from literature. Sometimes I may
even curate a PowerPoint presentation. Now I've created like five
slides for us to not only discuss what self worth is,
what are some early indicators of developing it. But here
are like three scenes from fiction texts where characters either
(19:10):
have to engage in decision making or assert their self
worth or confront something in an interpersonal relationship or an
inner conflict with self that's going to help them either
strengthen their sense of self worth or self abandoned. So
this is how I think about like the curation of
my sessions, but those are my three p's. So we
got the presenting problem, the preferences of the reader, and
(19:34):
then the book prescription.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Love that as you were talking, it made me think,
would like assigning a film to watch our something fall
under bibliotherapy or is there some other creative arts therapy
that wouldn't necessarily be bibliotherapy but it would definitely be
creative arts therapy, a creative words? Got it? Got it? Okay,
tell us more about like how we find these people.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, So there's several organizations that provide like courses, webinars
and things like that. But if you want to be
credentialed and biblio therapy, there's different pathways you can take
depending on what you want to be credentialed. As for me,
I went through the International Federation of biblio Poetry Therapy.
I write a lot about this in my book because
I again want this method to be accessible and people
(20:16):
to honor the ways that they've engaged with it. And
I feel like our society is just super obsessed with credentialism,
and I want people to know, like you're probably already
using biblio therapy. You don't need a credential, right, But
also if you want to be further trained, if you
want to engage in a community of professionals who do
this work, you can tap in with the International Federation
of Biblio Poetry Therapy, the National Association of Poetry Therapy, which.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
I'm a member of. I love being a member there.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Because they have weekly workshops and I haven't been able
to attend any in person gatherings because I have two
small children and childcare.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Be hard to come back. But it's great to just
be connected to other professionals who are poetry therapists and
bibliotherapists because you end up sharing techniques and resources, and
so that's sort of the path that I've been on.
But to be perfectly frank with you, I decided not
to continue to complete my training because I feel like
the time, money, and resources that I was spending towards
(21:09):
this path just didn't align with where I'm at in
my life.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And I have a small child with a disability, and
my baby girl is for and I just see after
writing my book, I just see like things very differently.
So I'm taking the path.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
We're going to see where this goes.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
But I just want to encourage people that you can
use this method. You're probably already using this method, whether
or not you're credentialed, if you're someone who loves literature,
if you're a clinician who loves literature, just bringing into
the therapy room, right, because we all develop our own
unique style and our own unique way of engaging with texts,
and that's really what it's about, is creating a bridge
from the therapy room to the client's personal life and
(21:49):
really helping them to use their strengths as readers, because
readers have so many strengths, being so deeply thoughtful, self reflective,
value in personal de development, and so there's so many
different ways that training could look. But all in while,
you don't need it to engage in this practice, you're
probably doing it already, got it, And.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'm sure your book will also be a helpful resource
for people who were wanting to do more of this,
as you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Absolutely, Yeah, I got a lot of actually everything's in
the book, all my tips tricks, I've got a lot
of contributions from clients as well. Fact that Lauren Shabon,
she's a professor at Smith College School for Social Work
and a really dear friend of mine. She wrote this
gorgeous reflection on using kis le Mont's long division as
(22:37):
an affirmation practice. The main character in that fictional book, Sitoyen,
has like a list of ten things that he tells
himself as he's time traveling, and she rewrote it for
her own personal biblio therapeutic practice, and it was so
beautiful the way that she rewrites the affirmations from her
lens and then she creates a little insight for a
(22:57):
reader to engage in the practice for themselves.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So the book is jam packed full.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Of things like that, and I feel like people who
are super bookish are going to love that, and therapists
are really gonna enjoy making these strategies their own.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, I can already see how people are going to
be using it, and thank you for that. So I
have a couple of scenarios that I want to offer
to you and see if you can suggest maybe some
books that you might prescribe a client or somebody in
that community who would be interested in learning more So,
the first one is somebody who's having a post breakup
of a long term relationship or a friendship.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Honestly, I feel like, your book has so many gems
in it in terms of understanding when a relationship is over.
I know that it's about sisterhood, but it really provides
such insight for readers on how do you determine when
the relationship is over? Like, how do you know when
it's time to say goodbye? And how do you make
peace with that? And how do you not allow the
(23:54):
grief and the disappointment of that to leak into the
relationships you forged next? So I would definitely recommends your book,
and I need to look up the title for this
next one because I often recommend your book and tandem
with I think it's called Fighting for Our Friendships. Yes,
it's Comfighting for Danielle Ships, Yes Danielle. But y'ard Jackson
(24:17):
absolutely phenomenal book. Another book that really focuses on female
friendships but provides so much context for readers.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
To really look at.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I just feel like books that contextualize advice based on
your unique values, identity, and circumstances are really valuable.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So your book and Danielle's book are really great tools
for that. What about someone looking to tap into their creativity,
possibly feeling depressed or uninspired.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Ooh, I love. I think it's called another one. I
got to look up Rick Rubin's new book. Oh the
way of Something, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
The creative act? Yes, it's the creative act, a way
of being. You're good, you have a real say are
you out here? I have a photographing memory. I can
see the title, but I don't always know the full bing.
I'd love to do a reading and take with you,
because I'm sure when you're reading, your mind is probably
creating so many rich images. For sure. For sure, I'm like,
all these characters look nothing like when you see like
a movie that's made from a book. It's this is
(25:16):
not how I picture character. Okay, so Rick Rubin's book.
And then the third one is somebody who's looking to
add more routine or structure to their life.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Atomic Habits. Atomic Habits because literally it's so rich in tools,
but also in storytelling, like I've probably never read a
self help book that just gathered me together from page one,
like the way he just hooks the reader.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You cannot stop reading. Atomic Habits is such a good book.
More from our conversation after the break. So I do
want to spend some more time there with particular titles
and talk a little bit more about how self help
(26:04):
books it feels like definitely have proliferated readers, right, It
does feel like there's a large amount out there. I
think some of them have been controversial, right, So something
like a rich dad, poor dad, or act like a woman,
think like a man, and that's a od right, that
has been around for some time that I don't see
on lists as much, but I feel like there's a
lot of conversation around those. Do you think that sometimes
(26:26):
self help books can actually cause more harm than they
can be helpful.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I absolutely do, because I think so many of them
are written and lack cultural relevancy and feed into this
narrative of people being broken if they can't perform a
certain way or if things don't look a particular way.
Like I stay away from any self help book that
(26:52):
kind of pushes a very stringent framework on a reader,
because I think we already do that ourselves. So any
kind of self help book that doesn't honor that we
are human beings with living, intersectional experiences that have different
realities based on those intersectionalized, marginalized aspects of self, I'm
(27:18):
not interested.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I always love when I read a book and the
writer from.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Jump introduces who they are, who their audience is, and
who the book is best for, but also privileges that
anybody coming to the text can glean insight. Just keep
these things in mind, right, Like, keep in mind that
this is a decolonial book. Keep in mind that if
you are someone who identifies as fill in the blank,
(27:44):
this might not apply to you. But I hope you
can still gather some insight and make some meaningful connections anyway. Like,
I really value that kind of language because I feel
like self help should be a conversation with the reader.
There shouldn't be something that's very like prescriptive or that
ads are like need to compare or pressure on a reader,
because we already have that in our society.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
We do that to each other. We judge ourselves, we
judge each other.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
And I think what I've observed about clients who are
bibliophiles and avid readers is like we tend to gravitate
towards books because we're so afraid of getting it wrong
or saying it wrong. So a lot of times a
reader like that picks up self help because they want
to feel like they won't get it wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
But really we all get it wrong. That's the point.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Like we're human beings having a human experience. We're always
going to get it wrong. Let's use the book as
a tool to help foster connection to sell and to
one another, not as like a tool for judgment.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So I want to hear more. As you were talking earlier, Emily,
and you were talking about needing to make sure as
you're prescribing books like of the content, that you wouldn't
choose a certain book for a certain client depending on
what they're going through. It made me think of like
the tech that therapists are often recommending, And I feel
like there has recently been some concern about what's the
(29:04):
book the body right? So I see that as a
book that as a clinician, I think makes some sense
and like I think, you know, our training allows us
to engage with that text in a way that is
different from maybe somebody who has not had that training.
But it did make me think, as you were talking,
like this feels like one of those books that you
have to be very careful with. Can you talk about
(29:25):
maybe that book and others that you think therapists want
to be mindful of as absolutely I'm.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
So glad you brought that up, because The Body Keeps
the Score is a hot topic still right because years
later it's divides the community, the reading community, and the
clinician community. I think that a lot of the issue
is that it's not accessible. So if you're not someone
who understands much about the nervous systemmer brain science, you know,
(29:51):
you're not going to like pick up that book and
just read with ease and be able to really make
meaningful connections. There's a lot of jargon in the book.
There's a lot of academic language in the book. It
reads like an academic text, but also there's no context
for the way that the social political aspects of our
life experiences and our society impact on nervous system. And
(30:14):
so if you are, if you're someone in Gaza right now,
right while the bombing is going on, and you pick
up The Body Keeps the Score, is that really going
to help you feel affirmed? No, because there's no context
provided in that book that says that there's something to
be said for our geopolitical landscape and how that affects us.
There's something to be said for the way that politics
(30:37):
write poverty, Like I understand why people have a problem
with the book. I don't think that we should throw
the book away, right Like, I also find that in
some of these very divisive conversations, were quick to just
want to like cast someone out or say well, there's
no good in it, and that's not necessarily true. I
have clients who brought the book to me in therapy
(30:58):
and said, hey, Emily, like, I'm reading this book and
it's making me think about this, and We've had a
really rich session or few sessions based around something that
a client read in that book. So I'm always open
to engaging with whatever a client wants to bring into
the therapy room. I just think that books like The
(31:19):
Body Keeps the Score aren't accessible to everyone, and that's
you know, that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Other others that come to mind for you that you
have found like divisive for both the therapists community and
the reading community. And you got more.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Time because if you notice, on my platforms, I don't
feature books that I don't use and therapy sometimes I'll
get that feedback like how about tell us books not
to recommend? And why I'm like, I hear you, but
like that's not the energy that I want to use
my platform for I'd rather spend it amplifying books that
I do use. But there are several Right, White Fragility
(31:53):
is very controversial, right because she doesn't cite Black women,
she doesn't cite the indigenous scholars and the resources that
she's pulling the literature from. Anytime somebody is writing a
text that doesn't honor the knowledge and the historical ground
that their ideas are founded upon is a major issue.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
And it's not just with that book. There's several books
written by white authors who do not cite, especially black women.
We have a big issue in literature with like not
citing black women, and that's a problem. And shout out
to Ebani Jinny's Moore because all her work is really
centered around calling that out.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I work with a lot of white women who really
that's the first thing they want to talk about is
white fragility, And I'm like.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
There are so many other books that are much better.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
But okay, if this is going to be the entry
point to bibliotherapy with you, we'll work it out, you.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Know, But that one immediately comes to mind. Yeah, So
as you're talking about that, it made me think of
book talk right in the ways that it really has
increased readers and you know, brought new authors into the space.
What do you have to say about like book talk
and like the way that mental health literature I think
specifically has become the rise for people and you know,
introduce new readers to the genre in ways like we
(33:04):
just talked about with a body Keusa Spory that like
not all books for therapists are meant for like a
general reading audience.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
First of all, I love any book community that provides
a space for readers to connect and to grow and
to share ideas. I think it gets messy online, which
is another part that I love about your book, because
you talk about sisterhood and the digital age and how
we should show up online for each other. I think
you said praise publicly, criticized privately, and I love that
because it's usually the opposite that for sure, where we
(33:35):
have such strong ideas about our books and the books
that we connect to and when somebody disagrees, now it's
like a full on fight. One of my favorite creators,
she's a black woman in her fifties. I love her
content so much. She put up a video recently on
BookTalk just saying like, look, maybe it's because I'm old
and I'm just like, I handle things differently. But she
(33:56):
was like, these spaces are sacred spaces for our community.
Let's stop biting each other's heads off. Let's engage in
a dialogue. If somebody thinks about something differently than you,
let's be curious. Ask them why, ask them about the
life experience that they bring to a text. I think
we want community so bad. We're so isolated, especially those
(34:18):
of us that prefer to be at home reading, and
then we have these rich, thriving spaces where we get
to show up and just share a little bit.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
About our reading life.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
And so when it goes left, it just puts a
zamper on everybody's party, right, Like now people feel like, well, dang,
I don't want to share, I don't want to show up,
or I'm not as articulate right, or I don't have
all the fancy microphones and spotlight and you know, to
show and.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
It's like, no, girl, just show up. Tell us what
you're reading.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I want to know because we are getting increasingly more
and more isolated, and people are super lonely and depressed.
And so while these communities are thriving and useful and
necessary and can be really healing. It can go left
really quick when we jump into judgment and we lack curiosity.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
So that's why I worry for us.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
But I'm just grateful that these communities exist because every
now and then you have somebody like my friend who
raises the vibration by just showing up and being like, hey,
y'all tripping, Let's get back to the books.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Hey, let's get back to you. So, what are some
suggestions you have in really for how people can vet books? Right? So,
we know some books are based on like credible mental
health information and others is like pseudoscience, and it's not
always easy to tell which is which. Do you have
any suggestions for how readers can vet books? I think
you need to know who you're reading.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
So you know, we live in a society right now
where everybody is saying that they're a short clinician. I'm
not someone that's super insue credentialism and things like that.
I believe lived experience is important and just as worthwhile,
and I want to hear from.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
People who have lived experience. But I also think when
you have somebody.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Positioning themselves as an expert who actually isn't. That's dangerous,
even folks who maybe were licensed but got their license
revoked from malpractice talking about they do it this way.
That's not the person I want to hear from.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Sir, unless you're telling me that also you made this
mistake and this misstep and this is how you fear right.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
So like, we live in a culture where it's just
what people say goes. So no bet the person that
you're reading, know who you're reading, know what lens they're
writing from is very important. I recently finished The Message,
written by Tannah See Colts, a brilliant book and just
a very useful tool for dialogue around considering who is
(36:44):
telling the story and what is their motivation and is
this narrative truthful or is it one that has an
agenda to harm.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
When we think.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
About who has the platform to tell certain stories, it's
often based upon who's got the power and the money
to tell the story. So really making sure that the
person that you're reading is sharing very transparently who they are,
what they're about, what their values are, who their audience is.
Always check the references the first thing I will do,
(37:16):
especially if it's a nonfiction text, especially if it's around
black mental health. I need to make sure that the
author is black, and I need to go check your
reference list and make sure that you're citing other black
psychologists and clinicians in the field, because you're not going
to write a book on black psychology and you ain't
a black psychologist and all your references are Freudian and we're.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Not doing that.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So I feel like just knowing you know, know who
you're reading, know who they're citing, make sure they're citing,
and make sure that the writer is transparent, because I
feel like we're also living in a time where people
are afraid to write because they're afraid to say the
wrong thing.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Or maybe feeling why.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I'm not an expert, but that's great. Those are the
kind of books I want to read. You're not an expert,
tell us why you wrote the book and what you've
learned that.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Made you want to share what you're sharing with us.
I love reading books like that.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I want to read books written by real people, not experts.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
More from our conversation after the break, So, how do
you help your clients to engage with health help things
critically and in a healthy way? Right? Because you already
mentioned like this temptation to feel like we're broken and
(38:31):
like this book is going to be the thing that
fixes me. How do you help clients to manage that?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, So I think really engaging responsibly with mental health
literature means one knowing that it's not a replacement for therapy, right, Like,
the book is a tool for the process. It's a
powerful tool for insight, it's a powerful tool for guidance,
for structuring the therapy, for engaging in a conversation with
your therapists, because we forget that therapy is about the
(38:58):
relationship between the and the client, but a lot of
us don't know how to be in relationship, and a
lot of us come into therapy feeling very on edge.
If you haven't had anyone ever take an interest in
you and hey, tell me about yourself. Now you have
a therapist in front of you asking you all these
personal questions, and you're like, dang, this is really uncomfortable,
and we can like tense up, freeze up. Those defenses
(39:20):
go up real quick. So I think books are powerful
tools to help with the process. I encourage my clients
to read with curiosity, not pressure, especially if you're reading
self help or a mental health book. Just use the
book to inspire exploration. You read something and you think,
do I agree with this or do I disagree with this?
And what ways has this landed for me in my life?
(39:43):
And in what ways does this not land for me
at all? Now we can get curious about why not
right as a black woman, as a black Puerto Rican woman,
I've definitely read books feminist texts, especially where I'm like, yeah,
this hain't hey for me, right, It's very clear this
ain't for me. Suddenly I pick up a woman's text
and I'm like, oh wow, Like I remember going through
(40:03):
that awakening in my twenties where now I'm reading about
women's theology and I can actually see myself in my
womanhood in the text that opened up a whole new
world for me, right to really center my feminism in
my black womanhood, And what does that mean for me?
What did that mean for me to me and in
me and in my mother and in my grandmother and
(40:24):
in my great grandmother. Also, I think decoding, how can
I explain it? Like sometimes with mental health literature, we're
kind of like given like actionable steps that make it
seem like if you do these things then you're fixed
or these are the steps for a one size fits
(40:45):
all solution, And I think that can be dangerous because
it doesn't read like an invitation to reflect, explore an experiment.
So if we buy into this notion of like, well,
these are the steps, but it's not working for me,
so what's wrong with me? Then girl, don't read the
book because that's not how you should be engaging with
(41:06):
mental health literature. Use it instead as a mayror right
like factor routine. Sims Bishop, who's known as like the
multicultural Children's literature Queen, she talks about books as being mayrors,
windows and sliding doors. So that's how I like to
tell my clients to approach their reading practice. It's like
we're reading books to turn in word and to self reflect.
(41:27):
We're reading books to take a little sneak peek into
someone else's window and see what they're up to and
understand what it's like in somebody else's shoes and sliding
doors where we get to kind of step into a
character's shoes and experience life through their lens and their
intersectional experience, but never to judge, Like the goal is
always to just allow a feeling response to happen to
(41:49):
have fun with it, right, Like I love that in
the book community we've got like book boyfriends and we've
got our favorite tropes. Because really, all of psychology is
our typle. So when we start engaging this way and
when we consider our interiority, there's just so much that
a therapist can do with that. We're not actively aware
(42:10):
of the archetypes and the symbols that speak to us
or that we're drawn too. And I think that's really
important because it's about ancestral veneration as well. Like I'll
never forget the first time I had a reading done
with a spiritual teacher. She was asking about my dreams
and I was telling her like, since I was little,
I would always have wear wolves in my dreams, right,
And she was like, well, that's your African American ancestors.
(42:32):
You know, you grew up a changed from your dad
and your family. But she was like, what would it
be like for you to consider that that every time
a wolf appears in your dreams, it's representative of your
black ancestors. I'm like wow, that was like, oh, and
ever since then, I see wolves everywhere now, like wolf everything.
Even my daughter like sometimes I'll just find her watching
(42:55):
cartoons and she's looking up wolves on YouTube, and I'm like, right, Like,
that's a very spiritual aspect and an archetype that's been
rich in my interior world since I was a little girl.
So spirit speaks to us in different ways science, symbols
and synchronicities.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
So I'm not just a biblio therapist. I'm a spiritual therapist.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And I feel like those two things go hand in
hand in the work. That's a long ones that answered.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I love I love that you are talking about because
I think most people would think about like, I find
myself really drawn to this trope. I don't know why,
but there is a reason why, right, And so a way,
that's what really was really powerful about your work is
that it can help to connect. Like you think it
feels very mindless and mundane, but it actually isn't. What
is it actually saying about your interior world? That's right? Yeah? Yeah,
(43:41):
So what responsibility do you think the publishing industry has
to support more diverse voices in mental health? Literature?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Publishing has a US responsibility and they are not doing enough.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
They're not doing enough. I don't even want to get out.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
My soul box here because every time a black woman
her negative experiences, we're seen as being negative. But it's
not negative. The reality of it is is that I'm
a licensed clinical social worker, a permanently licensed school social worker.
I've been in the field for over fifteen years. I'm
coming out with a book. I get books every day.
I promote them for free if I think my community
(44:19):
could benefit for them. I have only ever been paid
for three opportunities, which I've always announced as public sponsorships,
and each of those opportunities has come from a black
woman in publishing.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
There are white men, mediocre.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Creators, and I'm gonna just leave it at that, who
have literally a platform of thousands of followers, who don't
do near as much as I do, who are getting
paid like I think most recently, and this is someone
who I greatly adore, white man creator.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
But Sweetheart, good friend of mine, he got paid.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
I think he said fourteen hundred dollars for one book
post to create a reel on Instagram. That blew my mind.
I went home and cried back to Joy because it
broke my heart. I was like, you know what fourteen
hundred dollars could do for me? And my family for
my practice. You know how much I could do to
provide free therapy to the teenagers I console with fourteen
(45:23):
hundred dollars. This man has like not even half of
the platform that I have because he started out later.
He's a wonderful man again, but like fourteen hundred dollars
for Instagram reeal for real. And I had to really
like sit with that with spirit because I didn't want
to become resentful. But I just didn't know that certain
creators were getting paid at that level. And then on
(45:45):
the flip side of that, I know women of color
who have bought for their platforms, have huge platforms, do
amazing work, and they will only promote books if they're
getting paid.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And then they get judged for it because as it's.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Seen as not being you know, not passing the baton
to the next person or using their status or social
influence within publishing and within the book community to help
others come up.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
But I get it.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
I also get that and not saying gatekeeping is right
because I'm not going to gatekeep. I always uplift the
sisters who come to me, and I provide a lot
of free education where I.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Can for people but I get it.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I get why a sister would be burnt out doing
this work and feeling unappreciated and getting to a point
where they say.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
You know what, you're paying that man fourteen hundred dollars
for a pose. You need to pay me the.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Same thing, or I'm not going to promote the book.
But then what does that do to our community? Because
we have so many amazing writers and readers who need
to read those writers and indie authors who decide to
do it on their own who also want to get
discovered and deserve to be discovered because they're doing amazing
work in our community. So I always, like, again within
(46:58):
the legacy of that CDP Dison Delaney, remind myself that
like my abundance and my opportunities and my gifts come
from spirit, not from publishing. But that's just one example
of like the disparities and how book influencers are treated
in some of the gaps based on if you're a
creator of color or not. And I know this extends
(47:20):
way beyond the book community, but it matters to me
in the book community because we have a president coming
into office who literally wants to prevent more diverse books
from being published. With book banning on the rise and
our society and all of the ways that marginalized authors
have to just fight to get a book deal. It's
a big societal issue. I feel like it's a mental
(47:42):
health and social justice issue. So the fact that publishing
doesn't do more to amplify diverse, BIPAC book creators is
a big problem. It feels like that is one of
the issues.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
And then the other, as you mentioned, is you know
we've talked about like, okay, who is this book written?
Like publishing also acts as a gatekeeping place for other
diverse voices to be out there sharing information, right because
you know how hard it is to even get a
book deal, and then fighting to get the book to
write the book that you want to write for your community,
as opposed to with the publishing company, things will sell.
(48:17):
That's another part of it, exactly.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
And I'm very fortunate because one thing I love about
row House they give you half of your advance upfront.
So my book would have never been written if I
didn't sign with Rowhouse because I got two kids, one
with a disability and a full time private practice.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
When was I going to be able to write? Rowhouse
giving me half of my advance upfront meant that I
was able to lighten the load on me work wise
so that I could write.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
That's huge. They gave me an editor. I still hired
an editor myself outside of Rowhouse, but the fact that
they provides you with an editor. Their contract is public,
so you could go to their website right now and
download row House's book contract. Anybody can see it before
you decide to submit your manuscript to them. And I
know that they've also had their own challenges, right They've
(49:04):
paid for being such a social justice oriented in the
small publishing house, but that doesn't stop them from publishing
diverse books, especially black women writers. And I'm always going
to thank ro A House for that because I know
that my book wouldn't have been able to be born
without them seeing the vision, honoring the vision, and like
providing me the resources that I needed.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
To write the book. And we are also grateful. I'm very,
very proud of my colicsher. So where can we say
in touch with you? Emily? Where can we grab a
copy of the book, and what is your website as
well as any social media handles you'd like to share?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Absolutely, I'm at literapy l t e r ap Underscore
NYC on all socials. My website is Academy dot LITERAPYNYC
dot com. And my book A Bibliotherapy in the Bronx
that comes out April twenty ninth, twenty twenty five, and
you can pre order on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Simon
(50:01):
and Schuster's website Books a Million. I always say, like,
if you go Barnes and Noble, that's always best, because
I didn't know this until now. If you're a debut
author and your book is coming out in hardcover, you're
less likely to be picked up by Barnes and Noble
unless you have a large number of pre orders. And
I didn't know that, so I did know. If y'all
(50:23):
want my book in Barnes and Noble, pre order from
them and your local indie. You know, go into your
local indie, share about my book, request it from your
libraries so that by the time pub day is here,
you know you can get a copy. I'm excited for
everybody to get the book in hand. And you know,
if you can't pre order, that's okay too. Request it
(50:43):
from your local library. When it releases on April twenty nine,
twenty twenty five. I love the library and we have
to fight and protect our library.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Thank you so much, Emily. We will be sure to
include all that in our show notes. Thank you for
tuening some time with me today. Absolutely, thank you doac
to Joey, I appreciate you absolutely. I'm so glad Emily
was able to join me for this conversation. To learn
more about her and her work, or to grab your
copy of Bibiliotherapy in the Bronx, be sure to visit
(51:13):
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
Session four oh nine, and don't forget to text two
of your girls right now and tell them to check
out the episode. Did you know that you could leave
us a voicemail or share your questions for the podcast.
If you want to suggest movies or books for us
to review, or if you have thoughts about topics you'd
like to hear discussed, drop us a message at Memo
(51:35):
dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls. Let us know
what's on your mind. We just might answer it on
the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area,
visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash directory this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indechubu
and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank
(51:56):
y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
look forward to continue this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care what
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session four h nine or Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
afterword from our sponsors. Today's conversation is a very special one.
We're joined by educator, writer, and bibliotherapist Emily Rumble here
(01:23):
to share the powerful story behind her debut book, Bibliotherapy
in the Bronx. In this inspiring and deeply resonant conversation,
Emily explains how the books we read can be a lifeline,
a mirror, and a healing bam, especially for young people
navigating complex emotional landscapes from growing up in the Bronx
(01:43):
to creating reading circles for healing and underserved schools, Emily
has reimagined what therapy can look like for black and
brown communities, censoring literature, community and voice. In this conversation,
we're discussing representation, literacy as liberation, and the magic that
happens when you see yourself on the page. If something
(02:05):
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
or join our patreon for more conversations, add free podcast
episodes and even special giveaways. You can join us at
community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
(02:28):
thank you so much for joining us today, Emily, thank
you for having me. So. I want to talk a
little bit about your love for reading. Can you remember
when you first recognize, like the moment that you were
in love with reading. Was it a particular book, a
particular author? When did you fall in love with reading? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I would say first grade, because that's when I learned
how to read. I loved my first grade teacher, Ms. Parkins.
She was so much fun. She made stories come to
life in her classroom and really imaginative ways we would
put on plays. So I remember first reading Shreganona in
first grade and falling in love with Tommy Depayola, who
(03:10):
was also born and raised in Maridan, Connecticut, where I
was born, and I just thought it was so cool
that there was this children's book author writing about a
witch who was like very loving and ruled by ethics
and morals. And so Miss Parkins would use Streganona's stories
to teach us like character development and moral lessons, but
(03:32):
she always made it fun and so it never felt
like we were being taught how.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
To be good kids, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
But that was really where I fell in love with
reading was in Miss Parkins classroom.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So clearly she did an incredible job instealing the love
for reading in you.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Absolutely she made it so much fun. We never felt
like reading was a chore. I feel like after no
child left behind, we standardized reading, and we made reading
a chore, and we took the imagination and the fun
out of it. Right with the cancelation of programs like
Reading Rainbow, like all of the things that made reading.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Joyful and playful for children.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I'm so grateful that that was such a central part
of my childhood because I had a hard childhood and so.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Being able to go to school, being able to be in.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Classrooms like mss Parkins, that for me was a literary
escape in and of itself.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So it definitely started early for me. Yes, I'm sure
you have seen the millennials and older kind of reminiscing
on the coupons we would get from Peze. The hood
when you read a certain amount of books like that
definitely was a fund of love for reading for me
for sure. I wish they would bring that back me too.
So what does it mean to be a bibliotherapist, Emily?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, So, as a bibliotherapist, I use literature as a
healing tool to support the work that I do with
clients and therapy, and it's really about prescribing literature, whether
that be fiction, self help, memoir, poetry, that's going to
help clients to process emotions, to gain insight into their
life experiences, to how help them discover new perspectives. And
(05:02):
I feel like this is a perfect conversation to have
with you because I've used your books. Sisterhood heals a
lot in bibliotherapy and it's such a culturally responsive bibliotherapy
text because I feel like it's so culturally relevant and
you speak specifically to the dynamics that black women have
in our interpersonal friendships.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And so when I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Thinking about how I'm going to prescribe a book, I
really want to make sure that it's culturally relevant and
that it's not saying, Hey, there's this general framework that
you're going to apply to your life and you're going
to be healed. So it's really about understanding how to
prescribe a text that's going to affirm a client's identity,
that's going to create space for them to imagine and
(05:42):
to pursue their healing on very unique life path.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Thank you for that definition. Can you talk a little
bit about like the similarities and maybe the differences between
like bibulotherapy and something like poetry therapy or art therapy.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Absolutely, So bibliotherapy is under the umbrella of the creative
arts therapy include the likes of art therapy, drama therapy,
music therapy, and the like. So bibliotherapy is really an
expressive creative methodology and it's an intervention that would work
really well for someone who is either naturally a bibliophile,
so someone who's always reading. We have this saying in
(06:17):
the book community. A lot of people will say books
are my therapy, So bibliotherapy is not promoting that. But
what we are saying is that if a client is
an avid reader, if they engage in a personal reading practice,
that is very crucial to their social support system.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
I think of reading for some clients as like a
psychosocial support And this is a great opportunity as a
clinician to come in and say, Hey, what's the last
book that you've read that really opened your eyes to
a new perspective, or what's for us book you read
that made you cry or have such an intense emotional reaction.
Because there's an emotional response, right, we know as clinicians
that there's always a reason underneath.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So under bibliotherapy you would have poetry therapy, which is
its own unique intervention, because we know there's some people
who maybe they don't read full novels, or they're more
drawn to poetry for its symbolism and the literary techniques
that a poet might engage with. I love poetry and
bibliotherapy because it's also a sort of rich sensory experience
for folks to understand how to make connections between what
(07:18):
it looked like, what it felt like, what.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It sounded like right, Like, I also incorporate a lot
of narrative techniques when I'm using bibliotherapy, So just getting
a client to kind of externalize the problem and getting
them to even engage in creative practices characterizing your anger, right,
what color is it, how loud does anger sound?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What's anger's voice like? So there's a lot of neat
ways that a bibliotherapist can engage in this method that
would be really enlightening, not just for the clinician who's
serving a client, but for the client who's already engaging
in this practice at home and in their personal life.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So I'd love to hear about, like how I would
imagine some people seek you out specifically because they want
to do bibulotherapy. Yeah, maybe some clients who you naturally
like in just conversation you find out that they enjoy reading.
So how do you decide, like when to offer bibliotherapy
as an intervention.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, it's interesting because there's so many different pathways. So
sometimes someone's just coming to me.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
For bibliotherapy, absolutely, but then other times I might just
have a therapy client who I've been working with and
maybe we've reached an impasse in the therapy process, or
maybe there's a gap in their psycho educational knowledge, and
I might prescribe a book, or I might say, hey,
let's read this together and see what you think about this,
kind of in the way Sisterhood heals, right, you explain
(08:37):
like the different attachment styles, You explain the life cycle
phases of psychosocial development from Eric Ericson's lens. Like sometimes
it's as simple as that, but other times it's organic,
like in the therapy room. Like I've had clients where
we're in the middle of a really rich conversation or
an emotional one, and they might look at my bookshelf
and be like, oh my god, like that was my
(08:58):
grandmother's favorite book.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Some of my best sessions have happened that way, where
a client, just in the middle of a really rich
therapeutic conversation, they're like, oh my god, you have that book,
and I'm like, oh, yeah, let's you know, go grab
it off the bookshelf.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
What does this book mean to you?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Next thing, they're flipping through it and they're reading something
aloud to me or reading something to themselves, and you see,
you know, when a client starts to sort of elicit
emotion or something meaningful starts to bubble up, we can
use that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And sometimes it doesn't even have to be a book.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I've had rich bibliotherapeutic conversations with clients where we read
song lyrics or where we've just engaged in expressive writing,
which is also a component of bibliotherapy. So anytime that
we encourage a client to journal or to engage in
an expressive writing practice, that's also under the umbrella and
jurisdiction of bibliotherapy as an intervention. So I'm thinking about, like,
(09:48):
oh my gosh, how do you stay on top of
all of the continuing education credits that we have for
our licenses, and now you're also like reading books that
your clients are reading in you know, it feels like
you really have to kind of stay on top of
what's out there to know what to recommend for people.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Absolutely, you know what's so beautiful, doctor Joy.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
When I was doing research for my book Bibliotherapy in
the Bronx, I went to the Schomberg and I read
through the letters of doctor Sadie Peterson Delaney, whose legacy
has been buried, but not anymore because I write about
her legacy.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's very crucial to the history of bibliotherapy.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And it only came into my awareness because I was
reading something that Eleanor Roosevelt had written and she referred
to doctor Sadie Peterson Delaney as the godmother of bibliotherapy.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So quickly I went and googled.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It, and I found out that doctor Sadie Peterson's Delaney
is a black woman who not only was the head
librarian at Tuskegee, but she did such great work there
that she was actually sent to the Schomberg at the
time the one hundred and thirty fifth Street Library through
the New York Public Library System to curate their bibliotherapy collection.
And so when I started reading through the letters of
(10:52):
doctor Sadie Peterson' Delaney and all the amazing work that
she did her relationship to different programs, I mean, I
was reading like a letter that Councy Cullen wrote her
during the Harlem Renaissance, thanking her for using his poetry
working with delinquent youth, like it was so emotional, but
it was beautiful to see the way she curated her
bibliotherapy career like she would build relationships with publishers to
(11:15):
amplify black literature. She played a huge role in getting
the work of Harlem Renaissance authors and poets you know
out there widely known outside of just Harlem. And so
that's sort of the lens through which I've built my
practice literary NYC's I amplify the work of black authors.
I don't get paid for it. It's just the work
(11:37):
that I do because it's also part of my medicine cabinet. Right,
It's like, I want to know what's out there. I
want to be able not to support black writers, but
also like I'm looking for the best medicine for my community.
So I need to know, you know, what's coming out,
when is it coming out? And I'm building relationships with
publishers so that they can know, Hey, I'm an African
American Puyerrican bibliotherapist from the Bronx. I use my plot
(12:00):
form to share public education on this modality as a
healing vehicle for folks. Can we stay connected? So that's
really how I do it, is just by letting people
know who I am, keeping my pulse on what's happening
and publishing, building those relationships so that people know this
is what I do and this is my lane. So
sometimes and I'm grateful for this because I've worked so
(12:21):
harsh and I know, you know, but I'm at the
point now in my career where when a book comes out,
they'll tap me on my shoulder and say, hey, am,
we got this book coming out June twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
We think that you'd love it.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So I'm so grateful to have that now because it's
a synergy that I've had to work for years to
cultivate and trust that I've had to establish within the industry.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
But I'm just really grateful for that. And I'm always reading.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I don't have much of a social life, right like
my girls. I always talk about sisterhod Heels. My girls
are like, we get it. You want to be home reading.
We're coming over with about blah blu war and like,
who we miss you. But I'm always home reading. You know.
It's just me, my clients and my babies. That's really
my life. So I spent a lot of time reading.
And I'm also just an avid reader, you know. I
(13:05):
devour books.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I love reading.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
My grandmother raised me passed away when I was fourteen,
suddenly passed away. I was thrust into foster care, and
I emancipated myself at the age of sixteen.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So literally, when people ask me, like what do books
mean to you, it's like books are literally my family,
Like books raised me, talk about a framework, like I've
read for reasons beyond just literary escapism. Right, Literally, books
safe my life. Yeah, and I love that you are.
It feels like very much walking in doctor Sadie's footsteps
(13:38):
and like continuing her legacy even though you didn't know
about her until you started doing your own writing. That's
so beautiful. Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
It definitely makes me emotional, Like I remember reading through
her letters and just getting at a point where I
just started crying because it just hits different that I'm
thirty nine years old. I've been doing this work since
I was twenty two, Like, how would it have been
to have known about doctor Sadie Peterson is Delaney's legacy
at twenty two? And it just broke my heart because
(14:09):
I'm like, nobody knows her name. That's a problem that
so many of our greats and our heroes are their
legacies are buried, you know, and like I got access
to these archives, but it was because I was writing
a book.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
And so at one point the librarian comes over to
me and she's like, are you.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Are it's Peter, you're crying. So I was telling her
I'm writing a book, I'm biblio therapy. This is my
thing as a therapist, and she was like, oh my god.
So once she connected the dots of what it means
to me to be sitting here at the archive of
doctor Sadie Peterson Slaney's letters, she started crying. So we
were both boohooing, and in true librarian fashion, she was like, okay, girl,
(14:45):
we can't get.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
No ceres on the material riting not unneath our guys,
So tell me more about the process of writing Bibliotherapy in.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
The bronx Oooh man, it's been a long journey. It's
been a deeply personal journey for me. It was hard
to find a publisher who unders what I was trying
to do with the book. Some folks wanted it to
be like a therapeutic resource, very academic. Some folks saw
it as a memoir. And I felt like I needed
it to be both. I needed it to be accessible
(15:12):
to someone who may be just curious about this method
and wants to engage in Biblical therapy in their own
personal practice. But I also wanted it to be educational.
Four clinicians in the field and librarians, we'll do this
work every day. And so the book blends memoir, therapeutic guidance,
and resource curation. So you're going to get a lot
(15:33):
of good, juicy book recommendations and a lot of client
case studies around how I prescribe books and why I
prescribe to this book, and how the medicine and particular
text helped to facilitate a therapeutic process that led to
a client's healing overall. And so this book, for me,
it's my baby. I'm just so excited for the books
to be out there in reader's hands. I've got a
(15:55):
few advanced readers who are reading it now, and it's
beautiful just to hear people say, oh my god, yeah,
I've been using this my whole life. I didn't know
that this is what deblile therapy was, or wow, I've
been doing this with clients and now I get to
deepen my deblio therapy practice as a clinician because I've
got some more tools and that always makes me happy
to hear.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So I wonder if you could give us a bit
of a sneak peek. So when you think about, like
your strategy for choosing books to prescribe for specific clients
depending on what they're going through, how do you choose
the right book and then what kinds of things follow
after they choose the book or after you choose the book?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, so I use my three P method, which is
the presenting problem. So I always want to understand what
a client is coming to therapy for. And we know
this as clinicians. A client might come in and say
that the problem is one thing, and then we uncover
along the way that it's actually something else at the
root of the problem. So presenting problem and then preferences.
I want to understand who my client is as a reader.
(16:54):
Number one, Are they a reader? Are they someone who
would just pick up a book casually because they enjoy reading?
If they're not, then what is something that they do
engage with?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Do they like poetry? Do they like hip hop? I
do a lot of hip hop therapy.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
We're always reading hip hop lyrics, writing our own lyrics.
I work with a lot of black men in the
Bronx who are also very creative artistically, So sometimes it's that,
But I just want to get a sense of who
the client is as a reader. What they gravitate to
in books are their auto by authors for you that
you already feel emotionally connected to, and anything.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
They write you're buying you're reading.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Also, is there anything that you avoid in books? That's
really important because for some clients, we want to be
very careful that we're not prescribing something that's going to
be very triggering or even just in general mindful of
sort of some of the literary devices that author my
employ to tell a story. Right, So like if I
have a client who is very easily activated by symbolic
(17:52):
language or who maybe struggles with reality orientation, I'm not
going to be prescribing something that's like very poetic nature, right,
Like we're going to try to go for something that's
more like concrete.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Specific in nature.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I do an intake essentially with what I call of
reading intake that sort of addresses these different factors so
that I can get to know who my client is
as a reader. I create like a profile for myself
and I am a spiritual therapist. So sometimes I engage
in bibliomancy, where I just set an intention based on
what the client has shared with me about their history,
(18:26):
about their preferences, and then I'll pull a few texts
just using my own intuition, and we'll see what we
pull and see what comes up. And then that's where
my final step comes in, and that's prescription. And that's
where I actually decide, like, Okay, this is going to
be the prescription. And sometimes it's a book, a full novel.
Sometimes it's a self help text. Sometimes it's just an
(18:48):
excerpt from a book or an interaction between characters. I
do a lot of pulling from literature. Sometimes I may
even curate a PowerPoint presentation. Now I've created like five
slides for us to not only discuss what self worth is,
what are some early indicators of developing it. But here
are like three scenes from fiction texts where characters either
(19:10):
have to engage in decision making or assert their self
worth or confront something in an interpersonal relationship or an
inner conflict with self that's going to help them either
strengthen their sense of self worth or self abandoned. So
this is how I think about like the curation of
my sessions, but those are my three p's. So we
got the presenting problem, the preferences of the reader, and
(19:34):
then the book prescription.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Love that as you were talking, it made me think,
would like assigning a film to watch our something fall
under bibliotherapy or is there some other creative arts therapy
that wouldn't necessarily be bibliotherapy but it would definitely be
creative arts therapy, a creative words? Got it? Got it? Okay,
tell us more about like how we find these people.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, So there's several organizations that provide like courses, webinars
and things like that. But if you want to be
credentialed and biblio therapy, there's different pathways you can take
depending on what you want to be credentialed. As for me,
I went through the International Federation of biblio Poetry Therapy.
I write a lot about this in my book because
I again want this method to be accessible and people
(20:16):
to honor the ways that they've engaged with it. And
I feel like our society is just super obsessed with credentialism,
and I want people to know, like you're probably already
using biblio therapy. You don't need a credential, right, But
also if you want to be further trained, if you
want to engage in a community of professionals who do
this work, you can tap in with the International Federation
of Biblio Poetry Therapy, the National Association of Poetry Therapy, which.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
I'm a member of. I love being a member there.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Because they have weekly workshops and I haven't been able
to attend any in person gatherings because I have two
small children and childcare.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Be hard to come back. But it's great to just
be connected to other professionals who are poetry therapists and
bibliotherapists because you end up sharing techniques and resources, and
so that's sort of the path that I've been on.
But to be perfectly frank with you, I decided not
to continue to complete my training because I feel like
the time, money, and resources that I was spending towards
(21:09):
this path just didn't align with where I'm at in
my life.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And I have a small child with a disability, and
my baby girl is for and I just see after
writing my book, I just see like things very differently.
So I'm taking the path.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
We're going to see where this goes.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
But I just want to encourage people that you can
use this method. You're probably already using this method, whether
or not you're credentialed, if you're someone who loves literature,
if you're a clinician who loves literature, just bringing into
the therapy room, right, because we all develop our own
unique style and our own unique way of engaging with texts,
and that's really what it's about, is creating a bridge
from the therapy room to the client's personal life and
(21:49):
really helping them to use their strengths as readers, because
readers have so many strengths, being so deeply thoughtful, self reflective,
value in personal de development, and so there's so many
different ways that training could look. But all in while,
you don't need it to engage in this practice, you're
probably doing it already, got it, And.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'm sure your book will also be a helpful resource
for people who were wanting to do more of this,
as you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Absolutely, Yeah, I got a lot of actually everything's in
the book, all my tips tricks, I've got a lot
of contributions from clients as well. Fact that Lauren Shabon,
she's a professor at Smith College School for Social Work
and a really dear friend of mine. She wrote this
gorgeous reflection on using kis le Mont's long division as
(22:37):
an affirmation practice. The main character in that fictional book, Sitoyen,
has like a list of ten things that he tells
himself as he's time traveling, and she rewrote it for
her own personal biblio therapeutic practice, and it was so
beautiful the way that she rewrites the affirmations from her
lens and then she creates a little insight for a
(22:57):
reader to engage in the practice for themselves.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So the book is jam packed full.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Of things like that, and I feel like people who
are super bookish are going to love that, and therapists
are really gonna enjoy making these strategies their own.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, I can already see how people are going to
be using it, and thank you for that. So I
have a couple of scenarios that I want to offer
to you and see if you can suggest maybe some
books that you might prescribe a client or somebody in
that community who would be interested in learning more So,
the first one is somebody who's having a post breakup
of a long term relationship or a friendship.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Honestly, I feel like, your book has so many gems
in it in terms of understanding when a relationship is over.
I know that it's about sisterhood, but it really provides
such insight for readers on how do you determine when
the relationship is over? Like, how do you know when
it's time to say goodbye? And how do you make
peace with that? And how do you not allow the
(23:54):
grief and the disappointment of that to leak into the
relationships you forged next? So I would definitely recommends your book,
and I need to look up the title for this
next one because I often recommend your book and tandem
with I think it's called Fighting for Our Friendships. Yes,
it's Comfighting for Danielle Ships, Yes Danielle. But y'ard Jackson
(24:17):
absolutely phenomenal book. Another book that really focuses on female
friendships but provides so much context for readers.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
To really look at.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I just feel like books that contextualize advice based on
your unique values, identity, and circumstances are really valuable.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So your book and Danielle's book are really great tools
for that. What about someone looking to tap into their creativity,
possibly feeling depressed or uninspired.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Ooh, I love. I think it's called another one. I
got to look up Rick Rubin's new book. Oh the
way of Something, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
The creative act? Yes, it's the creative act, a way
of being. You're good, you have a real say are
you out here? I have a photographing memory. I can
see the title, but I don't always know the full bing.
I'd love to do a reading and take with you,
because I'm sure when you're reading, your mind is probably
creating so many rich images. For sure. For sure, I'm like,
all these characters look nothing like when you see like
a movie that's made from a book. It's this is
(25:16):
not how I picture character. Okay, so Rick Rubin's book.
And then the third one is somebody who's looking to
add more routine or structure to their life.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Atomic Habits. Atomic Habits because literally it's so rich in tools,
but also in storytelling, like I've probably never read a
self help book that just gathered me together from page one,
like the way he just hooks the reader.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You cannot stop reading. Atomic Habits is such a good book.
More from our conversation after the break. So I do
want to spend some more time there with particular titles
and talk a little bit more about how self help
(26:04):
books it feels like definitely have proliferated readers, right, It
does feel like there's a large amount out there. I
think some of them have been controversial, right, So something
like a rich dad, poor dad, or act like a woman,
think like a man, and that's a od right, that
has been around for some time that I don't see
on lists as much, but I feel like there's a
lot of conversation around those. Do you think that sometimes
(26:26):
self help books can actually cause more harm than they
can be helpful.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I absolutely do, because I think so many of them
are written and lack cultural relevancy and feed into this
narrative of people being broken if they can't perform a
certain way or if things don't look a particular way.
Like I stay away from any self help book that
(26:52):
kind of pushes a very stringent framework on a reader,
because I think we already do that ourselves. So any
kind of self help book that doesn't honor that we
are human beings with living, intersectional experiences that have different
realities based on those intersectionalized, marginalized aspects of self, I'm
(27:18):
not interested.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I always love when I read a book and the
writer from.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Jump introduces who they are, who their audience is, and
who the book is best for, but also privileges that
anybody coming to the text can glean insight. Just keep
these things in mind, right, Like, keep in mind that
this is a decolonial book. Keep in mind that if
you are someone who identifies as fill in the blank,
(27:44):
this might not apply to you. But I hope you
can still gather some insight and make some meaningful connections anyway. Like,
I really value that kind of language because I feel
like self help should be a conversation with the reader.
There shouldn't be something that's very like prescriptive or that
ads are like need to compare or pressure on a reader,
because we already have that in our society.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
We do that to each other. We judge ourselves, we
judge each other.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
And I think what I've observed about clients who are
bibliophiles and avid readers is like we tend to gravitate
towards books because we're so afraid of getting it wrong
or saying it wrong. So a lot of times a
reader like that picks up self help because they want
to feel like they won't get it wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
But really we all get it wrong. That's the point.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Like we're human beings having a human experience. We're always
going to get it wrong. Let's use the book as
a tool to help foster connection to sell and to
one another, not as like a tool for judgment.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So I want to hear more. As you were talking earlier, Emily,
and you were talking about needing to make sure as
you're prescribing books like of the content, that you wouldn't
choose a certain book for a certain client depending on
what they're going through. It made me think of like
the tech that therapists are often recommending, And I feel
like there has recently been some concern about what's the
(29:04):
book the body right? So I see that as a
book that as a clinician, I think makes some sense
and like I think, you know, our training allows us
to engage with that text in a way that is
different from maybe somebody who has not had that training.
But it did make me think, as you were talking,
like this feels like one of those books that you
have to be very careful with. Can you talk about
(29:25):
maybe that book and others that you think therapists want
to be mindful of as absolutely I'm.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
So glad you brought that up, because The Body Keeps
the Score is a hot topic still right because years
later it's divides the community, the reading community, and the
clinician community. I think that a lot of the issue
is that it's not accessible. So if you're not someone
who understands much about the nervous systemmer brain science, you know,
(29:51):
you're not going to like pick up that book and
just read with ease and be able to really make
meaningful connections. There's a lot of jargon in the book.
There's a lot of academic language in the book. It
reads like an academic text, but also there's no context
for the way that the social political aspects of our
life experiences and our society impact on nervous system. And
(30:14):
so if you are, if you're someone in Gaza right now,
right while the bombing is going on, and you pick
up The Body Keeps the Score, is that really going
to help you feel affirmed? No, because there's no context
provided in that book that says that there's something to
be said for our geopolitical landscape and how that affects us.
There's something to be said for the way that politics
(30:37):
write poverty, Like I understand why people have a problem
with the book. I don't think that we should throw
the book away, right Like, I also find that in
some of these very divisive conversations, were quick to just
want to like cast someone out or say well, there's
no good in it, and that's not necessarily true. I
have clients who brought the book to me in therapy
(30:58):
and said, hey, Emily, like, I'm reading this book and
it's making me think about this, and We've had a
really rich session or few sessions based around something that
a client read in that book. So I'm always open
to engaging with whatever a client wants to bring into
the therapy room. I just think that books like The
(31:19):
Body Keeps the Score aren't accessible to everyone, and that's
you know, that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Other others that come to mind for you that you
have found like divisive for both the therapists community and
the reading community. And you got more.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Time because if you notice, on my platforms, I don't
feature books that I don't use and therapy sometimes I'll
get that feedback like how about tell us books not
to recommend? And why I'm like, I hear you, but
like that's not the energy that I want to use
my platform for I'd rather spend it amplifying books that
I do use. But there are several Right, White Fragility
(31:53):
is very controversial, right because she doesn't cite Black women,
she doesn't cite the indigenous scholars and the resources that
she's pulling the literature from. Anytime somebody is writing a
text that doesn't honor the knowledge and the historical ground
that their ideas are founded upon is a major issue.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
And it's not just with that book. There's several books
written by white authors who do not cite, especially black women.
We have a big issue in literature with like not
citing black women, and that's a problem. And shout out
to Ebani Jinny's Moore because all her work is really
centered around calling that out.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I work with a lot of white women who really
that's the first thing they want to talk about is
white fragility, And I'm like.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
There are so many other books that are much better.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
But okay, if this is going to be the entry
point to bibliotherapy with you, we'll work it out, you.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Know, But that one immediately comes to mind. Yeah, So
as you're talking about that, it made me think of
book talk right in the ways that it really has
increased readers and you know, brought new authors into the space.
What do you have to say about like book talk
and like the way that mental health literature I think
specifically has become the rise for people and you know,
introduce new readers to the genre in ways like we
(33:04):
just talked about with a body Keusa Spory that like
not all books for therapists are meant for like a
general reading audience.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
First of all, I love any book community that provides
a space for readers to connect and to grow and
to share ideas. I think it gets messy online, which
is another part that I love about your book, because
you talk about sisterhood and the digital age and how
we should show up online for each other. I think
you said praise publicly, criticized privately, and I love that
because it's usually the opposite that for sure, where we
(33:35):
have such strong ideas about our books and the books
that we connect to and when somebody disagrees, now it's
like a full on fight. One of my favorite creators,
she's a black woman in her fifties. I love her
content so much. She put up a video recently on
BookTalk just saying like, look, maybe it's because I'm old
and I'm just like, I handle things differently. But she
(33:56):
was like, these spaces are sacred spaces for our community.
Let's stop biting each other's heads off. Let's engage in
a dialogue. If somebody thinks about something differently than you,
let's be curious. Ask them why, ask them about the
life experience that they bring to a text. I think
we want community so bad. We're so isolated, especially those
(34:18):
of us that prefer to be at home reading, and
then we have these rich, thriving spaces where we get
to show up and just share a little bit.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
About our reading life.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
And so when it goes left, it just puts a
zamper on everybody's party, right, Like now people feel like, well, dang,
I don't want to share, I don't want to show up,
or I'm not as articulate right, or I don't have
all the fancy microphones and spotlight and you know, to
show and.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
It's like, no, girl, just show up. Tell us what
you're reading.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I want to know because we are getting increasingly more
and more isolated, and people are super lonely and depressed.
And so while these communities are thriving and useful and
necessary and can be really healing. It can go left
really quick when we jump into judgment and we lack curiosity.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
So that's why I worry for us.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
But I'm just grateful that these communities exist because every
now and then you have somebody like my friend who
raises the vibration by just showing up and being like, hey,
y'all tripping, Let's get back to the books.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Hey, let's get back to you. So, what are some
suggestions you have in really for how people can vet books? Right? So,
we know some books are based on like credible mental
health information and others is like pseudoscience, and it's not
always easy to tell which is which. Do you have
any suggestions for how readers can vet books? I think
you need to know who you're reading.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
So you know, we live in a society right now
where everybody is saying that they're a short clinician. I'm
not someone that's super insue credentialism and things like that.
I believe lived experience is important and just as worthwhile,
and I want to hear from.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
People who have lived experience. But I also think when
you have somebody.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Positioning themselves as an expert who actually isn't. That's dangerous,
even folks who maybe were licensed but got their license
revoked from malpractice talking about they do it this way.
That's not the person I want to hear from.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Sir, unless you're telling me that also you made this
mistake and this misstep and this is how you fear right.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
So like, we live in a culture where it's just
what people say goes. So no bet the person that
you're reading, know who you're reading, know what lens they're
writing from is very important. I recently finished The Message,
written by Tannah See Colts, a brilliant book and just
a very useful tool for dialogue around considering who is
(36:44):
telling the story and what is their motivation and is
this narrative truthful or is it one that has an
agenda to harm.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
When we think.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
About who has the platform to tell certain stories, it's
often based upon who's got the power and the money
to tell the story. So really making sure that the
person that you're reading is sharing very transparently who they are,
what they're about, what their values are, who their audience is.
Always check the references the first thing I will do,
(37:16):
especially if it's a nonfiction text, especially if it's around
black mental health. I need to make sure that the
author is black, and I need to go check your
reference list and make sure that you're citing other black
psychologists and clinicians in the field, because you're not going
to write a book on black psychology and you ain't
a black psychologist and all your references are Freudian and we're.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Not doing that.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So I feel like just knowing you know, know who
you're reading, know who they're citing, make sure they're citing,
and make sure that the writer is transparent, because I
feel like we're also living in a time where people
are afraid to write because they're afraid to say the
wrong thing.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Or maybe feeling why.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I'm not an expert, but that's great. Those are the
kind of books I want to read. You're not an expert,
tell us why you wrote the book and what you've
learned that.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Made you want to share what you're sharing with us.
I love reading books like that.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I want to read books written by real people, not experts.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
More from our conversation after the break, So, how do
you help your clients to engage with health help things
critically and in a healthy way? Right? Because you already
mentioned like this temptation to feel like we're broken and
(38:31):
like this book is going to be the thing that
fixes me. How do you help clients to manage that?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, So I think really engaging responsibly with mental health
literature means one knowing that it's not a replacement for therapy, right, Like,
the book is a tool for the process. It's a
powerful tool for insight, it's a powerful tool for guidance,
for structuring the therapy, for engaging in a conversation with
your therapists, because we forget that therapy is about the
(38:58):
relationship between the and the client, but a lot of
us don't know how to be in relationship, and a
lot of us come into therapy feeling very on edge.
If you haven't had anyone ever take an interest in
you and hey, tell me about yourself. Now you have
a therapist in front of you asking you all these
personal questions, and you're like, dang, this is really uncomfortable,
and we can like tense up, freeze up. Those defenses
(39:20):
go up real quick. So I think books are powerful
tools to help with the process. I encourage my clients
to read with curiosity, not pressure, especially if you're reading
self help or a mental health book. Just use the
book to inspire exploration. You read something and you think,
do I agree with this or do I disagree with this?
And what ways has this landed for me in my life?
(39:43):
And in what ways does this not land for me
at all? Now we can get curious about why not
right as a black woman, as a black Puerto Rican woman,
I've definitely read books feminist texts, especially where I'm like, yeah,
this hain't hey for me, right, It's very clear this
ain't for me. Suddenly I pick up a woman's text
and I'm like, oh wow, Like I remember going through
(40:03):
that awakening in my twenties where now I'm reading about
women's theology and I can actually see myself in my
womanhood in the text that opened up a whole new
world for me, right to really center my feminism in
my black womanhood, And what does that mean for me?
What did that mean for me to me and in
me and in my mother and in my grandmother and
(40:24):
in my great grandmother. Also, I think decoding, how can
I explain it? Like sometimes with mental health literature, we're
kind of like given like actionable steps that make it
seem like if you do these things then you're fixed
or these are the steps for a one size fits
(40:45):
all solution, And I think that can be dangerous because
it doesn't read like an invitation to reflect, explore an experiment.
So if we buy into this notion of like, well,
these are the steps, but it's not working for me,
so what's wrong with me? Then girl, don't read the
book because that's not how you should be engaging with
(41:06):
mental health literature. Use it instead as a mayror right
like factor routine. Sims Bishop, who's known as like the
multicultural Children's literature Queen, she talks about books as being mayrors,
windows and sliding doors. So that's how I like to
tell my clients to approach their reading practice. It's like
we're reading books to turn in word and to self reflect.
(41:27):
We're reading books to take a little sneak peek into
someone else's window and see what they're up to and
understand what it's like in somebody else's shoes and sliding
doors where we get to kind of step into a
character's shoes and experience life through their lens and their
intersectional experience, but never to judge, Like the goal is
always to just allow a feeling response to happen to
(41:49):
have fun with it, right, Like I love that in
the book community we've got like book boyfriends and we've
got our favorite tropes. Because really, all of psychology is
our typle. So when we start engaging this way and
when we consider our interiority, there's just so much that
a therapist can do with that. We're not actively aware
(42:10):
of the archetypes and the symbols that speak to us
or that we're drawn too. And I think that's really
important because it's about ancestral veneration as well. Like I'll
never forget the first time I had a reading done
with a spiritual teacher. She was asking about my dreams
and I was telling her like, since I was little,
I would always have wear wolves in my dreams, right,
And she was like, well, that's your African American ancestors.
(42:32):
You know, you grew up a changed from your dad
and your family. But she was like, what would it
be like for you to consider that that every time
a wolf appears in your dreams, it's representative of your
black ancestors. I'm like wow, that was like, oh, and
ever since then, I see wolves everywhere now, like wolf everything.
Even my daughter like sometimes I'll just find her watching
(42:55):
cartoons and she's looking up wolves on YouTube, and I'm like, right, Like,
that's a very spiritual aspect and an archetype that's been
rich in my interior world since I was a little girl.
So spirit speaks to us in different ways science, symbols
and synchronicities.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
So I'm not just a biblio therapist. I'm a spiritual therapist.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And I feel like those two things go hand in
hand in the work. That's a long ones that answered.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I love I love that you are talking about because
I think most people would think about like, I find
myself really drawn to this trope. I don't know why,
but there is a reason why, right, And so a way,
that's what really was really powerful about your work is
that it can help to connect. Like you think it
feels very mindless and mundane, but it actually isn't. What
is it actually saying about your interior world? That's right? Yeah? Yeah,
(43:41):
So what responsibility do you think the publishing industry has
to support more diverse voices in mental health? Literature?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Publishing has a US responsibility and they are not doing enough.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
They're not doing enough. I don't even want to get out.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
My soul box here because every time a black woman
her negative experiences, we're seen as being negative. But it's
not negative. The reality of it is is that I'm
a licensed clinical social worker, a permanently licensed school social worker.
I've been in the field for over fifteen years. I'm
coming out with a book. I get books every day.
I promote them for free if I think my community
(44:19):
could benefit for them. I have only ever been paid
for three opportunities, which I've always announced as public sponsorships,
and each of those opportunities has come from a black
woman in publishing.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
There are white men, mediocre.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Creators, and I'm gonna just leave it at that, who
have literally a platform of thousands of followers, who don't
do near as much as I do, who are getting
paid like I think most recently, and this is someone
who I greatly adore, white man creator.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
But Sweetheart, good friend of mine, he got paid.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
I think he said fourteen hundred dollars for one book
post to create a reel on Instagram. That blew my mind.
I went home and cried back to Joy because it
broke my heart. I was like, you know what fourteen
hundred dollars could do for me? And my family for
my practice. You know how much I could do to
provide free therapy to the teenagers I console with fourteen
(45:23):
hundred dollars. This man has like not even half of
the platform that I have because he started out later.
He's a wonderful man again, but like fourteen hundred dollars
for Instagram reeal for real. And I had to really
like sit with that with spirit because I didn't want
to become resentful. But I just didn't know that certain
creators were getting paid at that level. And then on
(45:45):
the flip side of that, I know women of color
who have bought for their platforms, have huge platforms, do
amazing work, and they will only promote books if they're
getting paid.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And then they get judged for it because as it's.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Seen as not being you know, not passing the baton
to the next person or using their status or social
influence within publishing and within the book community to help
others come up.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
But I get it.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
I also get that and not saying gatekeeping is right
because I'm not going to gatekeep. I always uplift the
sisters who come to me, and I provide a lot
of free education where I.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Can for people but I get it.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I get why a sister would be burnt out doing
this work and feeling unappreciated and getting to a point
where they say.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
You know what, you're paying that man fourteen hundred dollars
for a pose. You need to pay me the.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Same thing, or I'm not going to promote the book.
But then what does that do to our community? Because
we have so many amazing writers and readers who need
to read those writers and indie authors who decide to
do it on their own who also want to get
discovered and deserve to be discovered because they're doing amazing
work in our community. So I always, like, again within
(46:58):
the legacy of that CDP Dison Delaney, remind myself that
like my abundance and my opportunities and my gifts come
from spirit, not from publishing. But that's just one example
of like the disparities and how book influencers are treated
in some of the gaps based on if you're a
creator of color or not. And I know this extends
(47:20):
way beyond the book community, but it matters to me
in the book community because we have a president coming
into office who literally wants to prevent more diverse books
from being published. With book banning on the rise and
our society and all of the ways that marginalized authors
have to just fight to get a book deal. It's
a big societal issue. I feel like it's a mental
(47:42):
health and social justice issue. So the fact that publishing
doesn't do more to amplify diverse, BIPAC book creators is
a big problem. It feels like that is one of
the issues.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
And then the other, as you mentioned, is you know
we've talked about like, okay, who is this book written?
Like publishing also acts as a gatekeeping place for other
diverse voices to be out there sharing information, right because
you know how hard it is to even get a
book deal, and then fighting to get the book to
write the book that you want to write for your community,
as opposed to with the publishing company, things will sell.
(48:17):
That's another part of it, exactly.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
And I'm very fortunate because one thing I love about
row House they give you half of your advance upfront.
So my book would have never been written if I
didn't sign with Rowhouse because I got two kids, one
with a disability and a full time private practice.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
When was I going to be able to write? Rowhouse
giving me half of my advance upfront meant that I
was able to lighten the load on me work wise
so that I could write.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
That's huge. They gave me an editor. I still hired
an editor myself outside of Rowhouse, but the fact that
they provides you with an editor. Their contract is public,
so you could go to their website right now and
download row House's book contract. Anybody can see it before
you decide to submit your manuscript to them. And I
know that they've also had their own challenges, right They've
(49:04):
paid for being such a social justice oriented in the
small publishing house, but that doesn't stop them from publishing
diverse books, especially black women writers. And I'm always going
to thank ro A House for that because I know
that my book wouldn't have been able to be born
without them seeing the vision, honoring the vision, and like
providing me the resources that I needed.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
To write the book. And we are also grateful. I'm very,
very proud of my colicsher. So where can we say
in touch with you? Emily? Where can we grab a
copy of the book, and what is your website as
well as any social media handles you'd like to share?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Absolutely, I'm at literapy l t e r ap Underscore
NYC on all socials. My website is Academy dot LITERAPYNYC
dot com. And my book A Bibliotherapy in the Bronx
that comes out April twenty ninth, twenty twenty five, and
you can pre order on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Simon
(50:01):
and Schuster's website Books a Million. I always say, like,
if you go Barnes and Noble, that's always best, because
I didn't know this until now. If you're a debut
author and your book is coming out in hardcover, you're
less likely to be picked up by Barnes and Noble
unless you have a large number of pre orders. And
I didn't know that, so I did know. If y'all
(50:23):
want my book in Barnes and Noble, pre order from
them and your local indie. You know, go into your
local indie, share about my book, request it from your
libraries so that by the time pub day is here,
you know you can get a copy. I'm excited for
everybody to get the book in hand. And you know,
if you can't pre order, that's okay too. Request it
(50:43):
from your local library. When it releases on April twenty nine,
twenty twenty five. I love the library and we have
to fight and protect our library.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Thank you so much, Emily. We will be sure to
include all that in our show notes. Thank you for
tuening some time with me today. Absolutely, thank you doac
to Joey, I appreciate you absolutely. I'm so glad Emily
was able to join me for this conversation. To learn
more about her and her work, or to grab your
copy of Bibiliotherapy in the Bronx, be sure to visit
(51:13):
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
Session four oh nine, and don't forget to text two
of your girls right now and tell them to check
out the episode. Did you know that you could leave
us a voicemail or share your questions for the podcast.
If you want to suggest movies or books for us
to review, or if you have thoughts about topics you'd
like to hear discussed, drop us a message at Memo
(51:35):
dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls. Let us know
what's on your mind. We just might answer it on
the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area,
visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash directory this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indechubu
and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank
(51:56):
y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
look forward to continue this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care what
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