May 14, 2025 • 45 mins
Today we’re joined by the brilliant and unapologetically authentic Dr. Donna Oriowo, licensed clinical social worker, certified sex and relationship therapist, and author of the bold new book, Drink Water & Mind Your Business. Known for her unique blend of cultural insight, therapeutic expertise, and straight-no-chaser delivery, Dr. Oriowo returns to the show to share the inspiration behind her new work and why it’s a necessary read for Black women navigating life, relationships, and radical self-care. We’re diving into what it really means to protect your peace, create boundaries without guilt, and center yourself in a world that often demands your labor but denies your rest.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:58):
for joining me for session four eleven of the Therapy
for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
afterword from our sponsors. Today, we're joined by the brilliant
and unapologetically authentic doctor Donna Oriowo, License Clinical social Worker,
(01:22):
certified sex and relationship therapist, and author of the bold
new book Drink Water and Mind Your Business. Known for
her unique blend of cultural insight, therapeutic expertise, and straight
no chaser delivery, Doctor Oriowo returns to the show to
share the inspiration behind her new work and why it's
a necessary read for black women navigating life, relationships and
(01:45):
radical self care. We're diving into what it really means
to protect your peace, create boundaries without guilt, and center
yourself in a world that often demands your labor but
denies your rest. If you've struggled with putting yourself first
or felt drained from care too much, this conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Is for you.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in Session, or join us over in our Patreon channel
To talk more about the episode. You can join us
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation,
(02:24):
Doctor Orioll, welcome back. We're so happy to have you
back joining us here on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yes, this is a very special celebration. I feel like
we've had so many conversations here, but no conversations about
your brand new book. Drink water and mind your business,
and so I love to hear just how you're feeling.
You know, I think the launch week, and like the
weeks leading up to launch can be a lot going
on for authors. So how are you feeling? How you
taking care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Heart palpitations, I might be dying, I don't know. I
don't know. And also I'm still super excited at the
same time. So I like to say I'm exhilarated because
I feel like it adds in that I'm scared to
tell with the I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah. I always think it's an interesting time, I think,
especially when therapists release books, because you know, I think
we know all the things right, like all the self talk,
all the you know whatever, but I think it's still
very different in practice. So what kinds of things have
you been having to challenge yourself on as a therapist
releasing a book?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
The boundaries, specifically the boundaries that I feel like at
this point, it has been said repeatedly, do not look
at the reviews. It has been told to me time
and time again. So right now I am working on
heeding that advice and not looking at the reviews. I'm
trying to mind my business. The reviewser for people who
(03:51):
are trying to figure out if they should read or
buy this thing. I am not there, which means I
have no business and the review so I'm working on
mine in my business and drinking my water.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Mm hmmm. Yeah, yeah, that's a very good idea. I
definitely encourage you to heed that as well. So you know,
this is your first book is about self esteem, but
you have a previous work book called Cocoa Butter and
Hair Grease, all about texturism, and so I think a
lot of people would have assumed that, like your first
larger book would have been like a continuation of that line,
(04:25):
But this one, I think is in connection with that,
but not like the same thing. So can you talk
about why you made the decision to have the self
esteem be focus of your first book.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
There were a couple of things. One, the idea to
even write the book was not mine. I was approached
by a publisher. They were like, hey, you do a
really great job and talking about this thing. You should
write a book, And I was just like, oh, duh,
of course I should. So I wrote a book. But also,
(04:55):
colorism in texturism feel so niche, and I think that
people are consistently disconnecting it from self esteem somehow, or
only seeing self esteem in a very specific way. So
it made more sense to me to let's bring it
back to the original problem. This encompasses the other, and
(05:16):
then let's have a further conversation from here. So I
didn't want to start with colorism and texturism, if only
because some people don't see themselves as having an issue here,
though I do talk about it in the book. I
want to say is in chapter four what We're not
Gonna Do?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Got it? The title I think is very tongue in
cheat Drink water and mind your business. But can you
tell me, like what those concepts mean? So drinking water
and minding your business, what does that mean in terms
of like healing and self maintenance?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Water is the foundation of all life. Almost all living
things require some level of water. I have it on
good authority that a lot of our planet is water.
So to me, drinking water feels very foundational. And from
a sexuality standpoint, if you're actually drinking your water, you're
more likely to have stronger orgasms, right, You're more likely
(06:09):
to be able to have the movement in your body
that is required for arousal and for orgasm, and then
that beautiful resolution it's more likely to happen if you're hydrated. Also,
mental health wise, the dehydrated brain can look like depressed brain,
can look like anxious brain. So if you actually are
(06:29):
drinking your water, You're doing everything that you need to
be doing for your body, just in general. But then
in adding in the mind your business. I think of
it in terms of the way my mama would use it,
right fre'cial front mind yourself, which feels a lot different
than just the way that we might use it as
a weapon. Be like, mind your business, don't do what
you need to go do. But I mean, ultimately it
(06:52):
still ends up being about are you minding your business?
Are you paying attention to your stuff? Are you taking
a look at what's involved in it and how you
would like to move forward with what's involved. So for me,
drinking water and mining your business. If we start there,
where can't we go?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Very novel approach, but so foundational As you mentioned, right,
let's just start at the basics here. Let's just stop
with all the complex stuff and just start at the
basic Yeah. Yeah, So one of the arguments that you
make in the book is that self esteem has been
gate kept by whiteness. Can you say a little bit
more about that and why you feel like self esteem
as it relates to black women has not been more
(07:32):
of a conversation. I think that the problem has been
very much along the lines of if you don't have
good self esteem, it's your problem. You haven't loved yourself enough,
you haven't liked yourself enough, you haven't done all the.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Work that you needed to do, and who going to
help you if not you? It's if you don't have
good self esteem, it's your problem, right, So we say
that it's your fault, that if it's low, you failed,
that you didn't like yourself, that you didn't care for
yourself enough, that you didn't show up enough. The problem
for me then is that no one is looking at
the world around us or acknowledging how self esteem was
(08:04):
never actually self taught. You learn it from the people
who are around you. Your self esteem is not created
in a bubble. It was created with supremacy culture in mind. Parents, grandparents,
and even our great grandparents were also subjected to it,
which means that what they taught us was already in
many ways through this lens of supremacy culture. So if
(08:26):
we're going to disrupt the narrative, if we're going to
live a life of pleasure on purpose, then it will
require us to actually divest from the messages that don't
belong to us and to build a more affirming community
within ourselves, yes, but also with each other, because self
esteem is not a solo thing. I actually think of
it as a community failure.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
You can say more about that, because I think that
is definitely a disruption from what we were taught in
grad school, right what self esteem is, which is of
course why you wrote this book, right, But can you
say more about like how it is actually the community's
jobs you and feel self esteem.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I recently had finished rereading your book sister Hood Heels
and the things you said, and I was just like, see,
that's all like I'm saying. I was just like see.
I was turning to my husband, like, look, see this
thing here. Like friendships, our relationships with each other are
so foundational. But if the idea is that you should
(09:24):
do it on your own, that's a very white supremacist notion.
That doesn't make any actual sense. Not when we are
keeping in mind that you don't give birth to yourself
and you don't raise yourself. Someone else does it. So
much of the way that we have learned to see
and sit with ourselves, we learn from how other people
(09:46):
saw and sat with us, and then we repeat it.
People are staying in relationships that they ain't got no
business in. People have a self talk that makes me
wanting to get into a tussle with them because I'm like,
you're not going to talk to my friend. I like that, right,
And I see the interconnectedness of it all, and the
hyper individualism is very white supremacist. It's very you're on
(10:09):
your own. And for me, I end up thinking about
the African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone,
If you want to go far, go together, that the
support of the community will take you further than you
ever thought that you could go. If you're trying to
get somewhere quick and you want to make it, I mean,
it'd be quick and it'd be cute, because it will
(10:30):
not be sustainable. I just keep thinking that many hands
make light the work. And because you didn't even start
the work, now you're talking about undoing what you got
and then rebuilding and going from there. It feels quite
frankly idiotic, Like maybe that's not the kindest way to
say it, but it is a way that I would
say it. It does feel a little idiotic. And I
(10:52):
remember somebody telling me that no, it's yours, you should
build it on your own and what happened in the
past doesn't matter. Tell that to symbol I smacked in
the head by Rafiki and whatef Robki say oh, well
it's in the past, and then he understood. But it
still hurts. The thing that was still hurts us now
at our big age, at this time in our lives,
(11:15):
it still hurts, which means that we have to unlearn.
We have to do that work.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
What definition are you actually using for self esteem? What
do you mean when we are talking about self esteem,
especially as the way you are conceptualizing in.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Oh, self esteem is how you feel about yourself? I'm like,
I didn't add no frills, I didn't add no extras,
just how do you feel about you? I separated it
from self concept, which is what do you think and
know about you? Are you feeling yourself? Do you think
(11:49):
there's something wrong with you? Are you miirred and shame? Like?
How do you feel about you? And I think that's
the only way that you can really know is if
you also know yourself? Is it?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
There are different dimensions for self esteem? Can I have
high self esteem as it relates to maybe you know,
like my hair, but then have lower self esteem? Maybe
as it relates to some other area of my life.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
You know what you are taking me on this memory
lane of the dissertation I wrote, and I did sexual
self efficacy along with general self esteem and hair esteem,
sexual self efficacy just being sexual esteem. Is there a
correlation between how we feel about our sexual selves, our
hair and our general self esteem? And the answer was yes.
(12:32):
Usually if you were good in one, you were good
in a lot of the other areas as well. They
were very strongly correlated. For me, I am thinking of
it though, as being dimensional, that you may feel really
great about yourself in this space, but not so great
in this space. And the thing sometimes we want to
borrow trouble. So if you feel good about yourself, say financially,
(12:55):
you think that that means that it's going to translate
to how you feel about yourself, maybe in your romantic
relationships or in your friendships. And I don't think that's
how that works. I think that if you don't, you
can't buy your way into liking yourself. But people think
you can. They think you can buy and earn your
way into enjoying who you are. I think that money
(13:19):
is just money, and that when we die, we don't
take it nowhere.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So if you're saying that self esteem is a community
kind of project, right, we need people to kind of
help us establish that for ourselves. Actually, no, let's take
a step back to how does it get damaged in
the first place, and then what does it look like
to actually rebuild it.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I'd say that it gets damaged by way of triangulation.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That feels like a fancy therapy word.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
It definitely is a little halfway fancy therapy word, but
triangulation being that, like the way that your parents raise
you is through the lens of white supremacy. Oftentimes they
think about what will it be for you to be
in public? And I don't know, I feel like it
was a thing for a while to punish your kid
(14:08):
according to what the law might do to them, which
is kind of wild. So you're doing this untold damage.
But it's through this lens. It's white supremacy requires you
to behave this way. Male supremacy requires women to behave
this way. So your parents teach you that way and
you grow up in that way. But when you deviate
(14:30):
from it, you get pushedback, like your parents will point
to what someone else is doing outside They will point
to what society is saying about this thing to try
and make you go back into the space that they
taught you to be in, triangulating you back into position
(14:53):
your parents got it from their parents, who got it
from their parents, and so on and so forth. So
at some point someone has to withstand the discomfort of
being out of pocket in order to change the entire system.
And some of it to me is like how much
(15:14):
bravery do we have to do that part of the
work to defy what other people think our place should be.
Because there is a place for the fat woman, there
is a place for the disabled woman, there's a place
for the dark skinned woman. People say things like you
act in light skin. We have to consider what does
that mean. What are you saying when you say that
(15:35):
someone is behaving light skin? What are you saying about
that person's worth and value relative to someone who is
light skin. You're saying that they don't actually have as
much and that they should. The same way people will
say like, act your wage like you don't have enough
money to be that sessy. You don't have enough money
to be wanting the things that you want. As a
(15:57):
matter of fact, we even say beggars cannot be choosers.
All of these things are meant to triangulate someone back
into position about where someone sees them and not necessarily
evoke where they may actually be mentally, emotionally, etc. We
are just going by what we see and then we're
(16:19):
telling them where they should actually rearrange themselves to be.
The triangulation is happening all around us, and I guess
I just wonder when we're going to stop.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
What does it look like then to take yourself out
of their triangulation? Or maybe we don't take ourselves out right,
Like maybe it is the system around us that forces
us out, or how does it happen that we realize, Okay,
something needs to change here.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
You find the right people, you build your community. Sometimes
you have vacant self esteem, which is they feel lowly
about themselves and that's just it, right, like there's nothing
else going on there. They feel low and the world
confirms that, yes, indeed you are low. So sometimes you
need to build the people around you who don't think
(17:03):
what you think, who think a little bit better about
you than you do, and those people for a time
may serve as validation. The point or the goal is
to get them to be confirmation. You don't want to
be validated by somebody your entire life, because then whether
or not you get to feel good about yourself hangs
(17:24):
on the whim of their feelings. But sometimes to start out,
that's what we need. We need somebody else to be like,
excuse you don't talk tobout feel like you need someone
else to be like, oh, no, you are the shit.
Indeed you are awesome. Right, someone to lift you up,
someone to help you in that way, and they will
serve as validation for a time until you get to
(17:47):
a place where you can validate yourself. But then they
just confirm. So then it's oh, am I tripping? Yes, girl,
you tripping. Then it's confirmation that, yes, indeed you are
tripping because I think you forgod, how great you are? Like,
let me help you find your mind because you lost it.
Let's help you find it. And I would say that
(18:07):
that is how like when I'm not feeling my best,
when I have questions, when I am confused about something,
I feel like I can reach out to people who
are able to get me back on my square, who
are able to remind me. I believe it was you
who told me, don't be looking at the reviews. It's
none of my business. Probably, And I like, even thinking
(18:29):
back to that very first book, Coco Butter and Hair Grease,
You and somebody else done told everybody that I had
a book that I didn't have, and I was just like,
now I got to come out of the Google drive fold,
and now it has to be a real book because
don't want to turn y'all to liars. And I'm just like,
where would I be without that level of love? Where
would I be without that love of support? Where would
(18:50):
I be if somebody else didn't believe more than I believed?
At the time, I didn't have the capacity to believe more.
I was full. I needed to double my capacity. But
that took time. That stretching took time, and it took people.
I didn't do it by myself, because who has time
to be doing everything by theirself? Don't We always say
(19:11):
that we need to stop trying to be superwoman. This
is us not being superwoman. Self esteem is not self
taught and it is not a solo game.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
More from our conversation after the break, So, how would
you say the book really walks readers through? Like, how
do you uncover your traumas and really the beliefs and
the behaviors that are rooted in trauma instead of in truth.
(19:41):
How does the book really help you to do that?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Ooh, this is a delicious question. The book is divided
into two parts, so you have Mind over Matter Part
one and Mind Your MATTERA Part two. I always think
of it like the first half is very much how
well do we understand the full scope of the problem,
And I would argue that a lot of us don't
(20:05):
really understand. So chapter one does the work of defining it.
Chapter two talks about what's in it, and chapter three
brings in this idea about the values. What values have
we been given as it surrounds self esteem specifically, and
have we even been taught to value it at all?
Most of us are taught to value our productivity and
(20:29):
our worth relative to others based off what we can
give them that would make us worthy and valuable people.
But if we're trying to move away from that, then
that means we've got a extra work to do. So
that's where it come into like what we're not going
to do and talking about sexuality and self esteem. So
(20:49):
the first half of the book is let's make sure
that we fully understand. And there's so many questions in
there to answer to get you thinking about like, Okay,
how has this thing been working for me? What could
I be doing next? Whereas the second half of the
book is very much we're gonna get the work now.
Now's the part where we do still talking concepts but
(21:12):
actually practicing them, putting that work in. And I don't
recommend anybody do this work alone. I recommend that you
do it with someone with a group if you will,
maybe get that book, maybe get your sister circle, right,
get your sister circle, get your book club. Don't do
it by yourself, because I want people to be able
to talk it out with other people, and I think
(21:33):
that we already do enough alone, and quite frankly, I'm
over it.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So in this book and kind of throughout your work,
you're always talking about like unlearning, right, Like I feel
like that is a hallwark word for you, just because
of so much of the work is about like all
these things that we've been taught about ourselves that are
like not true but really impacting how we live and
how we show up in the world. So what does
the process of unlearning look like? And how is that
related to our self esteem?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Ooh, learning is painful, it's I think it's scary. There
is an unraveling that can occur that makes it feel
sometimes like you are untethered and you're about to float
away and you have no idea where you're going. Because
being tethered to a lie probably feels more comfortable than
being untethered completely because at least you know how you're
(22:24):
supposed to function within a lie. You also don't have
to take full accountability for you when you are tethered
to that lie, because as long as you're tethered to
that lie, then well, the lie said this, The lie
has to be the one to take accountability for this.
You only are responsible for making sure that you act
within the confines that was fed to you. But when
(22:48):
you unravel, it's scary to look at your life and
know that you have to readjust that. It may put
you at odds with your family members, with your friends.
Because we pick the people in our lives at our
capacity level. We teach them how to treat us based
(23:11):
off that capacity. So when your capacity and your tolerance
for discomfort grow and you're like, no, that's not okay
for me. That doesn't feel okay for me, and you're
now putting in boundaries, you're having better communication. They're not
going for it, not immediately, not all at once. They're
(23:31):
not going for it because they know what has always been.
They know who you have been to them, and now
you're changing who you are, which requires them to now
be behaving differently as well. For some people, it's just
a bit too much, which is part of the reason
why you got to find the right people. It's why
you have to do this other part of the work.
(23:53):
But there's nothing cute about healing. And I know that
people throw that word around willing nearly all the time. Understood,
healing is nonlinear and healing hurts. You're exposing things that
have been under tight wraps, right you're actually doing the work.
I mean people say things like time heals all womb
(24:14):
time don't heal nothing. It's a lot that we tell
ourselves so that we can praise ourselves for our own inaction.
I'm like time passes, that's all it does. Whether or
not it heals is entirely up to you. Because with healing,
you have to apply something and usually that thing is
going to make you a little bit uncomfortable. It's taking
(24:36):
the medicine, it's using the alcohol or the hydrogen peroxide.
It's going to the doctor to set a bone straight.
It hurts, but then the ache, the pain that comes after,
is healing pain, and not the continued pain of being
out of alignment, of being consistently hurt. Quiet as it's kept,
some of us get used to it. We get used
(24:57):
to constantly being in pain, and as a matter of fact,
and I just get used to it. We identify with it.
So with you want to learn, then now you've got
to figure out who you are without this pain. And
if this pain is the only thing that you believe
makes you valuable, you may not want to do the
work anyway.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So I want to go back to something that you said,
because you talked about boundaries as it's related to self esteem,
and I think when we learn about boundaries, we're often
thinking about it in relation to other people. But you
talk about it as being something that we set for ourselves.
Can you talk about that distinction.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I feel like boundaries are what you do in your
own garden, right, Like I think that sometimes people think
that boundaries are what you do to say no to
other people. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about you, right, So,
like boundaries to me are how you say yes to yourself,
and sometimes that requires you to say no to other things.
So I think about how comfortable do I feel with
(25:50):
this thing, what is it that I'm wanting in this moment,
what is it that I'm needing? And I set my
boundaries accordingly. I know that I need to drink more water.
I set a boundary around how much of this thing
or that thing gets to be in the house. When
I know that I need to drink more water. I
know that I require a certain amount of quiet time,
(26:12):
which means that my mama and my sister deciding that
my house is a work share experience, it means that
I have to put a limit on that. And it's
not about them, It's about me. It's about what I
learned about me. Even going to brunch yesterday was a
conversation in boundaries. There were things that I needed to
(26:33):
do and some quiet time that I needed to have.
I intended yesterday to be like a morning day for me.
I was just gonna cry. I've got a live feelings.
All this stuff is going on all at once, and
I was just like, we're gonna be grid and we're
gonna cry. And I took some time and realized I
didn't need more. So when my sister said, hey, let's
go to brunch easy, yes, I was just like, you
(26:56):
know what, I do need to be around family right now.
I don't need to be by myself, and I do
want to see my sister and I do want to
spend time with my parents. For me, the boundary was
will it bring you joy? Will it bring you pleasure?
Will it bring you peace? And why aren't you doing it?
And I mean, quite frankly, that's how I choose a
lot of stuff that I do these days. Will it
(27:18):
bring me something? What will it bring me? And is
the thing that is going to bring me something that
I want? Recently, I was supposed to do an event
with someone, and when I met her, I was very
excited and wanted to learn more about her and her
work and how we could come together to do this thing.
We don't found the venue, we don't talk to the
owner of the venue. We about to set it off,
(27:40):
but she was so rude to me, so often right
like condescending in the way that she spoke to me,
and I was just like, I got to do it
because I made a commitment. And I was just like,
you also made a commitment to yourself. Are you violating
your commitment to yourself by continuing with this thing that
(28:00):
feels not just uncomfortable but untenable? Like I've had a
conversation with her about it, I was just like, I don't.
I don't like the way you talk to me. So
it's not that it came out of left field and
we didn't have a conversation. I said what I needed
to say. She continued the way that she continued. I decided,
you know what I'm done. I'm gonna give you the flyer.
(28:22):
You do with it what you will, good luck and
your future endeavors. She ain't said nothing to me, but
in that moment, I felt like I honored myself. I
was just like, I don't have to work with somebody
who is disrespectful, who doesn't know how to use the
word please, and who is giving me directives like I
worked for her, So for me, the boundary, it wasn't
(28:44):
about her. It was about how I felt and what
I needed and what I didn't need was that. So
I stopped, yeah and that feels like a beautiful example
of how that would make you feel better about yourself.
Right like that I honored myself, which is why I
think it's so cool that you are connecting boundaries to
self esteem, right like. I think that that is a
(29:04):
good reminder for people to think about when they have
to maybe have some of those difficult conversations. Yeah, and
sometimes you have to practice your self esteem before it's
there fully, so I know that I still am working
on me, And that's what I know. I don't think
there's a land called self esteem and you just arrive
and you stay. I think that it's constant work because
(29:26):
the world around you is constantly giving you whatever message
it's trying to give you to triangulate you back into
whatever the position was that you were in. And I
know that for me, if I don't hear from someone,
sometimes I tell myself a story about why they don't
want to hear from me, or why something feels off.
I'm like, I ask myself often is it helpful for
(29:47):
you to create that type of story? Do you want
to talk to them directly and actually understand or you
want to keep on being in an assulption. And I'm
thinking about something that a teacher wants said, like to
assume takes an ask out of you and me and
not just let me stop assuming. Or better yet, what's
the worst case scenario, what's the best case scenario, what's
the most likely scenario. Let's go with the most likely
(30:07):
until you actually have a conversation and see how that works.
And in doing so it helps me, for example, to
actually ask for help. I'm not really good at it.
I feel so guilty because I'm like, oh, but this
person has this thing going on and they're busy, and
I tell myself all the story about why I shouldn't ask,
(30:32):
and I have to mind my business. I can't make
choices for other people. So I drink my water and
I mind my business and I just ask. And if
the answer is no, I am accepting of the no.
I hear the no, I accept the no, and I
often ask for any explanation. Most people offer it anyway,
right like, oh, no, I won't be able to do
(30:52):
this because so I sort of go with whatever the
no is. But when they say yes, I'm like, look
at that. You made a choice for someone that you
didn't need to make, and you told yourself no and
they would have told you, yes, stop doing this. So
I use it as a way to also reinforce in
my mind that I have to trust the people who
(31:14):
are in my life to make choices for themselves and
not for me to make choices for them based off
how I feel about me and my request in that moment,
like asking you to write the forward for the book,
knees was quaking, stomach was queazy, and I was just like,
tape it and put your phone down. Okay. I just
(31:37):
I ran away from the phone. I was just like,
okay that way, and then I started thinking, Okay, who
else come riding forward?
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Matt, You've already had no backup player for me?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Well, because I was just like, no, doctor, Joy is
busy as a book a show. I mean soon gonna
be on TV. Right, I'm putting it out there to Joy.
Somebody heard it, and I'm just like, I can't ask
because that would be ridiculous. That's what goes on my mind.
(32:11):
You can't ask because that would be ridiculous. But then
I had to consider what is saying that? Is it
the part of me that was taught never to have
needs that I would be more valuable, especially in my
dark skinness. If I were a person who didn't have needs,
who never voiced needs, but only met the needs of
(32:34):
others as they request of me. I don't think people
think of that as a self esteem conversation, but I do.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah. I was about to say more about that, because
I don't think our traditional literature does not connect anything
about our needs and all of that to self esteem.
But you definitely do that here. So can you talk
more about I mean, you can continue with the example,
talk more about like how this shows up in ways
that people don't think about self esteem, how it shows
up in our lives.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I'm not even sure how to answer. I think that
we are taught how to put on a performance based
off our body size, our skin tone, our perceived gender,
based off our gendaitoals. We are taught about where we
should be in life, about where our ranking is, and
(33:24):
then we're taught how to behave according to that ranking.
And people who are dark skinned, people who are fat,
people are disabled are the people who are supposed to
just take what you can get because you are a
beggar in life, which means you don't make choice, you
can even you can't even choose to like yourself without
(33:45):
our permission, because there's nothing likable about you, so you
don't get to which means that you stop asking questions,
you stop asking for things. I've had people show up
in therapy and say, with whole chest, oh yeah, you know,
I'm gonna go with the flow type of person. I
don't have no you know, I don't be neat and nothing.
I'm just like, this is a flex. This is your flex.
(34:11):
You went with the flow so far that you did
not give any heed or mind to what it is
that you needed, and now you don't even know how
you got to where you went. Being good with the
flow is not a flex. You just told me you
don't have any boundaries. You just told me that there's
nothing that this person could ask of you that you
won't give, regardless of how much it harms you. Not
(34:32):
a flex. The other pieces that sometimes we use, the
things that we do have to try and prove our
value relative to others. So people will say things like, oh,
it's not my fault that I'm so pretty. You are
assuming that other people are ugly. And I challenge people
to tell me what is it about you that you
(34:53):
think it's particularly pretty? And they will almost always tell you, oh, well,
I got good hair, I have like skinned, Oh I'm skinny.
I'm like, skinny is not a personality. Light skin is
not a personality. Good hair is not a personality, and
they should not be made into such. But if that's
(35:15):
the thing that you've been taught that you are allowed
to shine on, it becomes your personality. So you don't
even know what other awesome things there are about you
because you are so focused on the thing that other
people said that they found valuable. We lose out when
the narrative is reduced down to a single attribute, because
(35:36):
there's so much more that people have to offer that
we never will get to. If it's just well, the
thing that makes me cute is this, or the things
that makes me valuable is this. Mother's Day is on
the way, if not passed, it's somewhere. And I think
one of the things that sort of gets on my
nerves the most is that Mother's Day seems like a
(35:57):
day where we praise mothers for their lady I'm like,
is that all you have to praise a mom for
what they did? So if they did nothing, they're not
a worthwhile person. They're not a worthwhile human. For me,
it's mothers are only worth something because of their use
relative to us, what they're willing to sacrifice of themselves.
(36:22):
And I'm just like, I don't think that's a flex either.
Granted I also think of Mother's Day as my day.
I ain't got no children, but I'm just like Mammy,
you need to celebrate me. I'm your first born. I'm
the reason for the season.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
More from our conversation after the break. So this is
not a surprise for me and probably not for anybody
who knows your work, But there's a very strong connection
to self esteem and sexuality and sexual pleasure in the books.
(37:00):
Can you say more about the connection there, because again,
that is not something that you would see in literature
before your book. So what's the connection there and why
did you think it was important to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I felt like it was important to talk about because
somehow the conversation about sex gets left out of self
esteem or sexuality. So sex being the what you do
with that body audi and sexuality being who you are,
So we are sexual beings from birth till death, and
the sexuality being in the way that we adorn ourselves,
the way that we talk to other people who we're
attracted to, whether or not we feel safe in that attraction.
(37:34):
All those things for me are in the space of
sexuality as well as hedge path. Thinking about the book
teaching about HIV, it's a textbook, it's the first thing
that comes to mind. So after having distinguished the difference
between sex and sexuality, understanding that quite frankly, a lot
of us are raised with the idea that we will
be partnered, that we will be partnered, that we will
(37:58):
bring forth progeny, and we will raise is that progeny.
These are basically sexuality based rituals. How will you adorn
yourself in order to find your partner in order to
have commitment or not have commitment? And then what will
you do sexually in the bedroom in order to produce
said progeny? And yet somehow in the conversations about self esteem,
(38:21):
we don't talk about sexuality. I was just like, how
does that work? Seems strange, seems off, especially when so
many people are talking about self esteem relative to their
ability to get a partner. So I'm like, you're talking
about getting a partner, but we're not talking about sex
and sexuality seems off. Stinks alone. It's faulked. We need
(38:44):
to remake that. So for me, it was important to
bring it into the book because number one, I don't
know that they're actually separate concepts. And for black girls
in particular, they are already given this title of being
fast from the time that they are young. So if
you are a fast black girl, how did that impact
(39:07):
your self esteem? Even the words of being told to
go put on some clothes because your uncle is coming over,
how did this impact your sexuality development and your self
esteem development? Inquire our minds want to know, so I
thought it was important to talk about.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
So how are you hoping that readers will interact and
engage with the book?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I think that sometimes I only got as far as
just write a girl, and I don't know that I
spent as much time thinking about the reader experience until recently,
until like after you know, the book is done and
they're like, Okay, finally the editing is done and we're
(39:46):
going to make it look cute. I feel like there's
been one thing after the other that I don't know
that I thought very much about the experience of reading it.
So I really like your question, what should I.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Maybe there is no shit, Maybe it's just like it's
up there now.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, I want people to read it. That'd be nice,
pretty cool if it's more than just me and my
mom and my editing team and you. If it's more
than us, that I think I would be satisfied. And
I want people to think of this as a guide,
so I know that's some people like to read things
through quickly so that they have an overview and an understanding. Cool,
(40:27):
go back, read the things, but answer all the questions.
I even put like a QR code where people could
get a workbook that I created as a companion piece
because I was thinking about it, like, if you don't
make it easy for people to do the thing, they
won't do the thing. So I wanted to make it
easy for people to do the thing. So there is
(40:48):
a QR code in the book that will get them
this workbook where they can answer some of those questions
that are found in the book. And I even created
a free website where I'm keeping resources and that I
will regularly update with more things. Mostly because I am
an expert, but I'm not the Capital Tche expert on
(41:11):
self esteem. I don't think anybody is the Capital Tche
expert on self esteem, which means that I want people
to be able to hear from a diverse number of
people on their thoughts about self esteem, to be able
to take in the information and then synthesize it for
themselves and pick the pieces that make the most sense
(41:31):
for where they are in their life's journey at the moment.
So for me, this is the book that you revisit
something that you can read it now, but as you're
going through a certain life stage or something is going on,
or you're struggling with a certain concept, you can go
back do it again. Your answers may change, what you
know may change, because as long as you're a person
(41:53):
who is alive, you're constantly changing, you're constantly learning, and
I want you to be able to do everything that
you can and with that learning, with that growth.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So what's one piece of advice you would give your
eighteen year old self?
Speaker 2 (42:06):
My eighteen year old self was something else. Ooh, one
piece of advice I would give my eighteen year old self.
I think I would have asked her to shine brighter.
I think that I felt crown. Crown. I think I
would have told that self of mine to pick what
(42:28):
I want, not because of what someone else wants, but
because of what I actually want, what I actually desire,
because there's only one person that is going to live
my life and have to deal with the consequences or
the regrets of my action or in action. I don't
know what I would have been if I knew that
on a deeper way at eighteen because Nigerian, firstborn and
(42:54):
first gen doctor, lawyer, engineer, and I was supposed to
be the doctor of psychology. And while yes I did
become a sex therapist instead, which was unexpected and not
all it wasn't completely welcomed, it was still a safer
route within what my parents wanted for me as opposed
(43:19):
to what I wanted for myself. I very well may
have been a dancer. I was very heavy in to dance,
modern ballet. That's what I wanted to do. I want
to dance, so I'll probably be a dancer. Right now,
we wouldn't even know each other because you would still.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Be I mean, we might, I don't know. I passed
get across, we'd be talking about dance therapy. Who knows?
Who even knows?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Who knows? So?
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Where can we stay connected with you? Where can we
find our copy of the book. Give us all the
digital information you can.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Stay connected with me on social media. I'm at doctor
dot donna oreoo on Instagram, threads and TikTok. You want
to get your copy of your book drinkwaterbook dot com.
I am trying to be everywhere because you know, I'm
trying to put together like a baby book tour. Like
maybe go somewhere say hi to some people.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
So be on the lookout for her in a city
near you or the internet.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
On the internet for so, I really am deeply in
love with my house. I don't like leaving it.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I completely my stuff.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
They keep my stuff here.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
I get it. I get it. I feel likewise, thank
you so much for spending some more time with us today,
doctor Oriel. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
I'm so glad Doctor Oriowell was able to join us
again today and share more of her expertise and to
share more about her new book, Drink Water and Mind
Your Business. To learn more about her or to grab
a copy of the book, visit the show notes at
Therapy for Black Girls dot com, slash Session for one
one and don't forget to text this episode to two
of your girls right now and tell them to check
(45:04):
it out. Did you know You can leave us a
voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If
there's a book or movie you'd like to suggest, or
if you have thoughts about topics you want us to discuss,
drop us a message at Memo dot fm, slash Therapy
for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
(45:25):
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indychubu, and Tyrie Rush.
Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again this week. I look forward
to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take
(45:47):
good care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:58):
for joining me for session four eleven of the Therapy
for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
afterword from our sponsors. Today, we're joined by the brilliant
and unapologetically authentic doctor Donna Oriowo, License Clinical social Worker,
(01:22):
certified sex and relationship therapist, and author of the bold
new book Drink Water and Mind Your Business. Known for
her unique blend of cultural insight, therapeutic expertise, and straight
no chaser delivery, Doctor Oriowo returns to the show to
share the inspiration behind her new work and why it's
a necessary read for black women navigating life, relationships and
(01:45):
radical self care. We're diving into what it really means
to protect your peace, create boundaries without guilt, and center
yourself in a world that often demands your labor but
denies your rest. If you've struggled with putting yourself first
or felt drained from care too much, this conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Is for you.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in Session, or join us over in our Patreon channel
To talk more about the episode. You can join us
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation,
(02:24):
Doctor Orioll, welcome back. We're so happy to have you
back joining us here on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yes, this is a very special celebration. I feel like
we've had so many conversations here, but no conversations about
your brand new book. Drink water and mind your business,
and so I love to hear just how you're feeling.
You know, I think the launch week, and like the
weeks leading up to launch can be a lot going
on for authors. So how are you feeling? How you
taking care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Heart palpitations, I might be dying, I don't know. I
don't know. And also I'm still super excited at the
same time. So I like to say I'm exhilarated because
I feel like it adds in that I'm scared to
tell with the I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah. I always think it's an interesting time, I think,
especially when therapists release books, because you know, I think
we know all the things right, like all the self talk,
all the you know whatever, but I think it's still
very different in practice. So what kinds of things have
you been having to challenge yourself on as a therapist
releasing a book?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
The boundaries, specifically the boundaries that I feel like at
this point, it has been said repeatedly, do not look
at the reviews. It has been told to me time
and time again. So right now I am working on
heeding that advice and not looking at the reviews. I'm
trying to mind my business. The reviewser for people who
(03:51):
are trying to figure out if they should read or
buy this thing. I am not there, which means I
have no business and the review so I'm working on
mine in my business and drinking my water.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Mm hmmm. Yeah, yeah, that's a very good idea. I
definitely encourage you to heed that as well. So you know,
this is your first book is about self esteem, but
you have a previous work book called Cocoa Butter and
Hair Grease, all about texturism, and so I think a
lot of people would have assumed that, like your first
larger book would have been like a continuation of that line,
(04:25):
But this one, I think is in connection with that,
but not like the same thing. So can you talk
about why you made the decision to have the self
esteem be focus of your first book.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
There were a couple of things. One, the idea to
even write the book was not mine. I was approached
by a publisher. They were like, hey, you do a
really great job and talking about this thing. You should
write a book, And I was just like, oh, duh,
of course I should. So I wrote a book. But also,
(04:55):
colorism in texturism feel so niche, and I think that
people are consistently disconnecting it from self esteem somehow, or
only seeing self esteem in a very specific way. So
it made more sense to me to let's bring it
back to the original problem. This encompasses the other, and
(05:16):
then let's have a further conversation from here. So I
didn't want to start with colorism and texturism, if only
because some people don't see themselves as having an issue here,
though I do talk about it in the book. I
want to say is in chapter four what We're not
Gonna Do?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Got it? The title I think is very tongue in
cheat Drink water and mind your business. But can you
tell me, like what those concepts mean? So drinking water
and minding your business, what does that mean in terms
of like healing and self maintenance?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Water is the foundation of all life. Almost all living
things require some level of water. I have it on
good authority that a lot of our planet is water.
So to me, drinking water feels very foundational. And from
a sexuality standpoint, if you're actually drinking your water, you're
more likely to have stronger orgasms, right, You're more likely
(06:09):
to be able to have the movement in your body
that is required for arousal and for orgasm, and then
that beautiful resolution it's more likely to happen if you're hydrated. Also,
mental health wise, the dehydrated brain can look like depressed brain,
can look like anxious brain. So if you actually are
(06:29):
drinking your water, You're doing everything that you need to
be doing for your body, just in general. But then
in adding in the mind your business. I think of
it in terms of the way my mama would use it,
right fre'cial front mind yourself, which feels a lot different
than just the way that we might use it as
a weapon. Be like, mind your business, don't do what
you need to go do. But I mean, ultimately it
(06:52):
still ends up being about are you minding your business?
Are you paying attention to your stuff? Are you taking
a look at what's involved in it and how you
would like to move forward with what's involved. So for me,
drinking water and mining your business. If we start there,
where can't we go?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Very novel approach, but so foundational As you mentioned, right,
let's just start at the basics here. Let's just stop
with all the complex stuff and just start at the
basic Yeah. Yeah, So one of the arguments that you
make in the book is that self esteem has been
gate kept by whiteness. Can you say a little bit
more about that and why you feel like self esteem
as it relates to black women has not been more
(07:32):
of a conversation. I think that the problem has been
very much along the lines of if you don't have
good self esteem, it's your problem. You haven't loved yourself enough,
you haven't liked yourself enough, you haven't done all the.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Work that you needed to do, and who going to
help you if not you? It's if you don't have
good self esteem, it's your problem, right, So we say
that it's your fault, that if it's low, you failed,
that you didn't like yourself, that you didn't care for
yourself enough, that you didn't show up enough. The problem
for me then is that no one is looking at
the world around us or acknowledging how self esteem was
(08:04):
never actually self taught. You learn it from the people
who are around you. Your self esteem is not created
in a bubble. It was created with supremacy culture in mind. Parents, grandparents,
and even our great grandparents were also subjected to it,
which means that what they taught us was already in
many ways through this lens of supremacy culture. So if
(08:26):
we're going to disrupt the narrative, if we're going to
live a life of pleasure on purpose, then it will
require us to actually divest from the messages that don't
belong to us and to build a more affirming community
within ourselves, yes, but also with each other, because self
esteem is not a solo thing. I actually think of
it as a community failure.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
You can say more about that, because I think that
is definitely a disruption from what we were taught in
grad school, right what self esteem is, which is of
course why you wrote this book, right, But can you
say more about like how it is actually the community's
jobs you and feel self esteem.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I recently had finished rereading your book sister Hood Heels
and the things you said, and I was just like, see,
that's all like I'm saying. I was just like see.
I was turning to my husband, like, look, see this
thing here. Like friendships, our relationships with each other are
so foundational. But if the idea is that you should
(09:24):
do it on your own, that's a very white supremacist notion.
That doesn't make any actual sense. Not when we are
keeping in mind that you don't give birth to yourself
and you don't raise yourself. Someone else does it. So
much of the way that we have learned to see
and sit with ourselves, we learn from how other people
(09:46):
saw and sat with us, and then we repeat it.
People are staying in relationships that they ain't got no
business in. People have a self talk that makes me
wanting to get into a tussle with them because I'm like,
you're not going to talk to my friend. I like that, right,
And I see the interconnectedness of it all, and the
hyper individualism is very white supremacist. It's very you're on
(10:09):
your own. And for me, I end up thinking about
the African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone,
If you want to go far, go together, that the
support of the community will take you further than you
ever thought that you could go. If you're trying to
get somewhere quick and you want to make it, I mean,
it'd be quick and it'd be cute, because it will
(10:30):
not be sustainable. I just keep thinking that many hands
make light the work. And because you didn't even start
the work, now you're talking about undoing what you got
and then rebuilding and going from there. It feels quite
frankly idiotic, Like maybe that's not the kindest way to
say it, but it is a way that I would
say it. It does feel a little idiotic. And I
(10:52):
remember somebody telling me that no, it's yours, you should
build it on your own and what happened in the
past doesn't matter. Tell that to symbol I smacked in
the head by Rafiki and whatef Robki say oh, well
it's in the past, and then he understood. But it
still hurts. The thing that was still hurts us now
at our big age, at this time in our lives,
(11:15):
it still hurts, which means that we have to unlearn.
We have to do that work.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
What definition are you actually using for self esteem? What
do you mean when we are talking about self esteem,
especially as the way you are conceptualizing in.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Oh, self esteem is how you feel about yourself? I'm like,
I didn't add no frills, I didn't add no extras,
just how do you feel about you? I separated it
from self concept, which is what do you think and
know about you? Are you feeling yourself? Do you think
(11:49):
there's something wrong with you? Are you miirred and shame? Like?
How do you feel about you? And I think that's
the only way that you can really know is if
you also know yourself? Is it?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
There are different dimensions for self esteem? Can I have
high self esteem as it relates to maybe you know,
like my hair, but then have lower self esteem? Maybe
as it relates to some other area of my life.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
You know what you are taking me on this memory
lane of the dissertation I wrote, and I did sexual
self efficacy along with general self esteem and hair esteem,
sexual self efficacy just being sexual esteem. Is there a
correlation between how we feel about our sexual selves, our
hair and our general self esteem? And the answer was yes.
(12:32):
Usually if you were good in one, you were good
in a lot of the other areas as well. They
were very strongly correlated. For me, I am thinking of
it though, as being dimensional, that you may feel really
great about yourself in this space, but not so great
in this space. And the thing sometimes we want to
borrow trouble. So if you feel good about yourself, say financially,
(12:55):
you think that that means that it's going to translate
to how you feel about yourself, maybe in your romantic
relationships or in your friendships. And I don't think that's
how that works. I think that if you don't, you
can't buy your way into liking yourself. But people think
you can. They think you can buy and earn your
way into enjoying who you are. I think that money
(13:19):
is just money, and that when we die, we don't
take it nowhere.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So if you're saying that self esteem is a community
kind of project, right, we need people to kind of
help us establish that for ourselves. Actually, no, let's take
a step back to how does it get damaged in
the first place, and then what does it look like
to actually rebuild it.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I'd say that it gets damaged by way of triangulation.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That feels like a fancy therapy word.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
It definitely is a little halfway fancy therapy word, but
triangulation being that, like the way that your parents raise
you is through the lens of white supremacy. Oftentimes they
think about what will it be for you to be
in public? And I don't know, I feel like it
was a thing for a while to punish your kid
(14:08):
according to what the law might do to them, which
is kind of wild. So you're doing this untold damage.
But it's through this lens. It's white supremacy requires you
to behave this way. Male supremacy requires women to behave
this way. So your parents teach you that way and
you grow up in that way. But when you deviate
(14:30):
from it, you get pushedback, like your parents will point
to what someone else is doing outside They will point
to what society is saying about this thing to try
and make you go back into the space that they
taught you to be in, triangulating you back into position
(14:53):
your parents got it from their parents, who got it
from their parents, and so on and so forth. So
at some point someone has to withstand the discomfort of
being out of pocket in order to change the entire system.
And some of it to me is like how much
(15:14):
bravery do we have to do that part of the
work to defy what other people think our place should be.
Because there is a place for the fat woman, there
is a place for the disabled woman, there's a place
for the dark skinned woman. People say things like you
act in light skin. We have to consider what does
that mean. What are you saying when you say that
(15:35):
someone is behaving light skin? What are you saying about
that person's worth and value relative to someone who is
light skin. You're saying that they don't actually have as
much and that they should. The same way people will
say like, act your wage like you don't have enough
money to be that sessy. You don't have enough money
to be wanting the things that you want. As a
(15:57):
matter of fact, we even say beggars cannot be choosers.
All of these things are meant to triangulate someone back
into position about where someone sees them and not necessarily
evoke where they may actually be mentally, emotionally, etc. We
are just going by what we see and then we're
(16:19):
telling them where they should actually rearrange themselves to be.
The triangulation is happening all around us, and I guess
I just wonder when we're going to stop.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
What does it look like then to take yourself out
of their triangulation? Or maybe we don't take ourselves out right,
Like maybe it is the system around us that forces
us out, or how does it happen that we realize, Okay,
something needs to change here.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
You find the right people, you build your community. Sometimes
you have vacant self esteem, which is they feel lowly
about themselves and that's just it, right, like there's nothing
else going on there. They feel low and the world
confirms that, yes, indeed you are low. So sometimes you
need to build the people around you who don't think
(17:03):
what you think, who think a little bit better about
you than you do, and those people for a time
may serve as validation. The point or the goal is
to get them to be confirmation. You don't want to
be validated by somebody your entire life, because then whether
or not you get to feel good about yourself hangs
(17:24):
on the whim of their feelings. But sometimes to start out,
that's what we need. We need somebody else to be like,
excuse you don't talk tobout feel like you need someone
else to be like, oh, no, you are the shit.
Indeed you are awesome. Right, someone to lift you up,
someone to help you in that way, and they will
serve as validation for a time until you get to
(17:47):
a place where you can validate yourself. But then they
just confirm. So then it's oh, am I tripping? Yes, girl,
you tripping. Then it's confirmation that, yes, indeed you are
tripping because I think you forgod, how great you are? Like,
let me help you find your mind because you lost it.
Let's help you find it. And I would say that
(18:07):
that is how like when I'm not feeling my best,
when I have questions, when I am confused about something,
I feel like I can reach out to people who
are able to get me back on my square, who
are able to remind me. I believe it was you
who told me, don't be looking at the reviews. It's
none of my business. Probably, And I like, even thinking
(18:29):
back to that very first book, Coco Butter and Hair Grease,
You and somebody else done told everybody that I had
a book that I didn't have, and I was just like,
now I got to come out of the Google drive fold,
and now it has to be a real book because
don't want to turn y'all to liars. And I'm just like,
where would I be without that level of love? Where
would I be without that love of support? Where would
(18:50):
I be if somebody else didn't believe more than I believed?
At the time, I didn't have the capacity to believe more.
I was full. I needed to double my capacity. But
that took time. That stretching took time, and it took people.
I didn't do it by myself, because who has time
to be doing everything by theirself? Don't We always say
(19:11):
that we need to stop trying to be superwoman. This
is us not being superwoman. Self esteem is not self
taught and it is not a solo game.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
More from our conversation after the break, So, how would
you say the book really walks readers through? Like, how
do you uncover your traumas and really the beliefs and
the behaviors that are rooted in trauma instead of in truth.
(19:41):
How does the book really help you to do that?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Ooh, this is a delicious question. The book is divided
into two parts, so you have Mind over Matter Part
one and Mind Your MATTERA Part two. I always think
of it like the first half is very much how
well do we understand the full scope of the problem,
And I would argue that a lot of us don't
(20:05):
really understand. So chapter one does the work of defining it.
Chapter two talks about what's in it, and chapter three
brings in this idea about the values. What values have
we been given as it surrounds self esteem specifically, and
have we even been taught to value it at all?
Most of us are taught to value our productivity and
(20:29):
our worth relative to others based off what we can
give them that would make us worthy and valuable people.
But if we're trying to move away from that, then
that means we've got a extra work to do. So
that's where it come into like what we're not going
to do and talking about sexuality and self esteem. So
(20:49):
the first half of the book is let's make sure
that we fully understand. And there's so many questions in
there to answer to get you thinking about like, Okay,
how has this thing been working for me? What could
I be doing next? Whereas the second half of the
book is very much we're gonna get the work now.
Now's the part where we do still talking concepts but
(21:12):
actually practicing them, putting that work in. And I don't
recommend anybody do this work alone. I recommend that you
do it with someone with a group if you will,
maybe get that book, maybe get your sister circle, right,
get your sister circle, get your book club. Don't do
it by yourself, because I want people to be able
to talk it out with other people, and I think
(21:33):
that we already do enough alone, and quite frankly, I'm
over it.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So in this book and kind of throughout your work,
you're always talking about like unlearning, right, Like I feel
like that is a hallwark word for you, just because
of so much of the work is about like all
these things that we've been taught about ourselves that are
like not true but really impacting how we live and
how we show up in the world. So what does
the process of unlearning look like? And how is that
related to our self esteem?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Ooh, learning is painful, it's I think it's scary. There
is an unraveling that can occur that makes it feel
sometimes like you are untethered and you're about to float
away and you have no idea where you're going. Because
being tethered to a lie probably feels more comfortable than
being untethered completely because at least you know how you're
(22:24):
supposed to function within a lie. You also don't have
to take full accountability for you when you are tethered
to that lie, because as long as you're tethered to
that lie, then well, the lie said this, The lie
has to be the one to take accountability for this.
You only are responsible for making sure that you act
within the confines that was fed to you. But when
(22:48):
you unravel, it's scary to look at your life and
know that you have to readjust that. It may put
you at odds with your family members, with your friends.
Because we pick the people in our lives at our
capacity level. We teach them how to treat us based
(23:11):
off that capacity. So when your capacity and your tolerance
for discomfort grow and you're like, no, that's not okay
for me. That doesn't feel okay for me, and you're
now putting in boundaries, you're having better communication. They're not
going for it, not immediately, not all at once. They're
(23:31):
not going for it because they know what has always been.
They know who you have been to them, and now
you're changing who you are, which requires them to now
be behaving differently as well. For some people, it's just
a bit too much, which is part of the reason
why you got to find the right people. It's why
you have to do this other part of the work.
(23:53):
But there's nothing cute about healing. And I know that
people throw that word around willing nearly all the time. Understood,
healing is nonlinear and healing hurts. You're exposing things that
have been under tight wraps, right you're actually doing the work.
I mean people say things like time heals all womb
(24:14):
time don't heal nothing. It's a lot that we tell
ourselves so that we can praise ourselves for our own inaction.
I'm like time passes, that's all it does. Whether or
not it heals is entirely up to you. Because with healing,
you have to apply something and usually that thing is
going to make you a little bit uncomfortable. It's taking
(24:36):
the medicine, it's using the alcohol or the hydrogen peroxide.
It's going to the doctor to set a bone straight.
It hurts, but then the ache, the pain that comes after,
is healing pain, and not the continued pain of being
out of alignment, of being consistently hurt. Quiet as it's kept,
some of us get used to it. We get used
(24:57):
to constantly being in pain, and as a matter of fact,
and I just get used to it. We identify with it.
So with you want to learn, then now you've got
to figure out who you are without this pain. And
if this pain is the only thing that you believe
makes you valuable, you may not want to do the
work anyway.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So I want to go back to something that you said,
because you talked about boundaries as it's related to self esteem,
and I think when we learn about boundaries, we're often
thinking about it in relation to other people. But you
talk about it as being something that we set for ourselves.
Can you talk about that distinction.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I feel like boundaries are what you do in your
own garden, right, Like I think that sometimes people think
that boundaries are what you do to say no to
other people. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about you, right, So,
like boundaries to me are how you say yes to yourself,
and sometimes that requires you to say no to other things.
So I think about how comfortable do I feel with
(25:50):
this thing, what is it that I'm wanting in this moment,
what is it that I'm needing? And I set my
boundaries accordingly. I know that I need to drink more water.
I set a boundary around how much of this thing
or that thing gets to be in the house. When
I know that I need to drink more water. I
know that I require a certain amount of quiet time,
(26:12):
which means that my mama and my sister deciding that
my house is a work share experience, it means that
I have to put a limit on that. And it's
not about them, It's about me. It's about what I
learned about me. Even going to brunch yesterday was a
conversation in boundaries. There were things that I needed to
(26:33):
do and some quiet time that I needed to have.
I intended yesterday to be like a morning day for me.
I was just gonna cry. I've got a live feelings.
All this stuff is going on all at once, and
I was just like, we're gonna be grid and we're
gonna cry. And I took some time and realized I
didn't need more. So when my sister said, hey, let's
go to brunch easy, yes, I was just like, you
(26:56):
know what, I do need to be around family right now.
I don't need to be by myself, and I do
want to see my sister and I do want to
spend time with my parents. For me, the boundary was
will it bring you joy? Will it bring you pleasure?
Will it bring you peace? And why aren't you doing it?
And I mean, quite frankly, that's how I choose a
lot of stuff that I do these days. Will it
(27:18):
bring me something? What will it bring me? And is
the thing that is going to bring me something that
I want? Recently, I was supposed to do an event
with someone, and when I met her, I was very
excited and wanted to learn more about her and her
work and how we could come together to do this thing.
We don't found the venue, we don't talk to the
owner of the venue. We about to set it off,
(27:40):
but she was so rude to me, so often right
like condescending in the way that she spoke to me,
and I was just like, I got to do it
because I made a commitment. And I was just like,
you also made a commitment to yourself. Are you violating
your commitment to yourself by continuing with this thing that
(28:00):
feels not just uncomfortable but untenable? Like I've had a
conversation with her about it, I was just like, I don't.
I don't like the way you talk to me. So
it's not that it came out of left field and
we didn't have a conversation. I said what I needed
to say. She continued the way that she continued. I decided,
you know what I'm done. I'm gonna give you the flyer.
(28:22):
You do with it what you will, good luck and
your future endeavors. She ain't said nothing to me, but
in that moment, I felt like I honored myself. I
was just like, I don't have to work with somebody
who is disrespectful, who doesn't know how to use the
word please, and who is giving me directives like I
worked for her, So for me, the boundary, it wasn't
(28:44):
about her. It was about how I felt and what
I needed and what I didn't need was that. So
I stopped, yeah and that feels like a beautiful example
of how that would make you feel better about yourself.
Right like that I honored myself, which is why I
think it's so cool that you are connecting boundaries to
self esteem, right like. I think that that is a
(29:04):
good reminder for people to think about when they have
to maybe have some of those difficult conversations. Yeah, and
sometimes you have to practice your self esteem before it's
there fully, so I know that I still am working
on me, And that's what I know. I don't think
there's a land called self esteem and you just arrive
and you stay. I think that it's constant work because
(29:26):
the world around you is constantly giving you whatever message
it's trying to give you to triangulate you back into
whatever the position was that you were in. And I
know that for me, if I don't hear from someone,
sometimes I tell myself a story about why they don't
want to hear from me, or why something feels off.
I'm like, I ask myself often is it helpful for
(29:47):
you to create that type of story? Do you want
to talk to them directly and actually understand or you
want to keep on being in an assulption. And I'm
thinking about something that a teacher wants said, like to
assume takes an ask out of you and me and
not just let me stop assuming. Or better yet, what's
the worst case scenario, what's the best case scenario, what's
the most likely scenario. Let's go with the most likely
(30:07):
until you actually have a conversation and see how that works.
And in doing so it helps me, for example, to
actually ask for help. I'm not really good at it.
I feel so guilty because I'm like, oh, but this
person has this thing going on and they're busy, and
I tell myself all the story about why I shouldn't ask,
(30:32):
and I have to mind my business. I can't make
choices for other people. So I drink my water and
I mind my business and I just ask. And if
the answer is no, I am accepting of the no.
I hear the no, I accept the no, and I
often ask for any explanation. Most people offer it anyway,
right like, oh, no, I won't be able to do
(30:52):
this because so I sort of go with whatever the
no is. But when they say yes, I'm like, look
at that. You made a choice for someone that you
didn't need to make, and you told yourself no and
they would have told you, yes, stop doing this. So
I use it as a way to also reinforce in
my mind that I have to trust the people who
(31:14):
are in my life to make choices for themselves and
not for me to make choices for them based off
how I feel about me and my request in that moment,
like asking you to write the forward for the book,
knees was quaking, stomach was queazy, and I was just like,
tape it and put your phone down. Okay. I just
(31:37):
I ran away from the phone. I was just like,
okay that way, and then I started thinking, Okay, who
else come riding forward?
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Matt, You've already had no backup player for me?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Well, because I was just like, no, doctor, Joy is
busy as a book a show. I mean soon gonna
be on TV. Right, I'm putting it out there to Joy.
Somebody heard it, and I'm just like, I can't ask
because that would be ridiculous. That's what goes on my mind.
(32:11):
You can't ask because that would be ridiculous. But then
I had to consider what is saying that? Is it
the part of me that was taught never to have
needs that I would be more valuable, especially in my
dark skinness. If I were a person who didn't have needs,
who never voiced needs, but only met the needs of
(32:34):
others as they request of me. I don't think people
think of that as a self esteem conversation, but I do.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah. I was about to say more about that, because
I don't think our traditional literature does not connect anything
about our needs and all of that to self esteem.
But you definitely do that here. So can you talk
more about I mean, you can continue with the example,
talk more about like how this shows up in ways
that people don't think about self esteem, how it shows
up in our lives.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I'm not even sure how to answer. I think that
we are taught how to put on a performance based
off our body size, our skin tone, our perceived gender,
based off our gendaitoals. We are taught about where we
should be in life, about where our ranking is, and
(33:24):
then we're taught how to behave according to that ranking.
And people who are dark skinned, people who are fat,
people are disabled are the people who are supposed to
just take what you can get because you are a
beggar in life, which means you don't make choice, you
can even you can't even choose to like yourself without
(33:45):
our permission, because there's nothing likable about you, so you
don't get to which means that you stop asking questions,
you stop asking for things. I've had people show up
in therapy and say, with whole chest, oh yeah, you know,
I'm gonna go with the flow type of person. I
don't have no you know, I don't be neat and nothing.
I'm just like, this is a flex. This is your flex.
(34:11):
You went with the flow so far that you did
not give any heed or mind to what it is
that you needed, and now you don't even know how
you got to where you went. Being good with the
flow is not a flex. You just told me you
don't have any boundaries. You just told me that there's
nothing that this person could ask of you that you
won't give, regardless of how much it harms you. Not
(34:32):
a flex. The other pieces that sometimes we use, the
things that we do have to try and prove our
value relative to others. So people will say things like, oh,
it's not my fault that I'm so pretty. You are
assuming that other people are ugly. And I challenge people
to tell me what is it about you that you
(34:53):
think it's particularly pretty? And they will almost always tell you, oh, well,
I got good hair, I have like skinned, Oh I'm skinny.
I'm like, skinny is not a personality. Light skin is
not a personality. Good hair is not a personality, and
they should not be made into such. But if that's
(35:15):
the thing that you've been taught that you are allowed
to shine on, it becomes your personality. So you don't
even know what other awesome things there are about you
because you are so focused on the thing that other
people said that they found valuable. We lose out when
the narrative is reduced down to a single attribute, because
(35:36):
there's so much more that people have to offer that
we never will get to. If it's just well, the
thing that makes me cute is this, or the things
that makes me valuable is this. Mother's Day is on
the way, if not passed, it's somewhere. And I think
one of the things that sort of gets on my
nerves the most is that Mother's Day seems like a
(35:57):
day where we praise mothers for their lady I'm like,
is that all you have to praise a mom for
what they did? So if they did nothing, they're not
a worthwhile person. They're not a worthwhile human. For me,
it's mothers are only worth something because of their use
relative to us, what they're willing to sacrifice of themselves.
(36:22):
And I'm just like, I don't think that's a flex either.
Granted I also think of Mother's Day as my day.
I ain't got no children, but I'm just like Mammy,
you need to celebrate me. I'm your first born. I'm
the reason for the season.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
More from our conversation after the break. So this is
not a surprise for me and probably not for anybody
who knows your work, But there's a very strong connection
to self esteem and sexuality and sexual pleasure in the books.
(37:00):
Can you say more about the connection there, because again,
that is not something that you would see in literature
before your book. So what's the connection there and why
did you think it was important to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I felt like it was important to talk about because
somehow the conversation about sex gets left out of self
esteem or sexuality. So sex being the what you do
with that body audi and sexuality being who you are,
So we are sexual beings from birth till death, and
the sexuality being in the way that we adorn ourselves,
the way that we talk to other people who we're
attracted to, whether or not we feel safe in that attraction.
(37:34):
All those things for me are in the space of
sexuality as well as hedge path. Thinking about the book
teaching about HIV, it's a textbook, it's the first thing
that comes to mind. So after having distinguished the difference
between sex and sexuality, understanding that quite frankly, a lot
of us are raised with the idea that we will
be partnered, that we will be partnered, that we will
(37:58):
bring forth progeny, and we will raise is that progeny.
These are basically sexuality based rituals. How will you adorn
yourself in order to find your partner in order to
have commitment or not have commitment? And then what will
you do sexually in the bedroom in order to produce
said progeny? And yet somehow in the conversations about self esteem,
(38:21):
we don't talk about sexuality. I was just like, how
does that work? Seems strange, seems off, especially when so
many people are talking about self esteem relative to their
ability to get a partner. So I'm like, you're talking
about getting a partner, but we're not talking about sex
and sexuality seems off. Stinks alone. It's faulked. We need
(38:44):
to remake that. So for me, it was important to
bring it into the book because number one, I don't
know that they're actually separate concepts. And for black girls
in particular, they are already given this title of being
fast from the time that they are young. So if
you are a fast black girl, how did that impact
(39:07):
your self esteem? Even the words of being told to
go put on some clothes because your uncle is coming over,
how did this impact your sexuality development and your self
esteem development? Inquire our minds want to know, so I
thought it was important to talk about.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
So how are you hoping that readers will interact and
engage with the book?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I think that sometimes I only got as far as
just write a girl, and I don't know that I
spent as much time thinking about the reader experience until recently,
until like after you know, the book is done and
they're like, Okay, finally the editing is done and we're
(39:46):
going to make it look cute. I feel like there's
been one thing after the other that I don't know
that I thought very much about the experience of reading it.
So I really like your question, what should I.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Maybe there is no shit, Maybe it's just like it's
up there now.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, I want people to read it. That'd be nice,
pretty cool if it's more than just me and my
mom and my editing team and you. If it's more
than us, that I think I would be satisfied. And
I want people to think of this as a guide,
so I know that's some people like to read things
through quickly so that they have an overview and an understanding. Cool,
(40:27):
go back, read the things, but answer all the questions.
I even put like a QR code where people could
get a workbook that I created as a companion piece
because I was thinking about it, like, if you don't
make it easy for people to do the thing, they
won't do the thing. So I wanted to make it
easy for people to do the thing. So there is
(40:48):
a QR code in the book that will get them
this workbook where they can answer some of those questions
that are found in the book. And I even created
a free website where I'm keeping resources and that I
will regularly update with more things. Mostly because I am
an expert, but I'm not the Capital Tche expert on
(41:11):
self esteem. I don't think anybody is the Capital Tche
expert on self esteem, which means that I want people
to be able to hear from a diverse number of
people on their thoughts about self esteem, to be able
to take in the information and then synthesize it for
themselves and pick the pieces that make the most sense
(41:31):
for where they are in their life's journey at the moment.
So for me, this is the book that you revisit
something that you can read it now, but as you're
going through a certain life stage or something is going on,
or you're struggling with a certain concept, you can go
back do it again. Your answers may change, what you
know may change, because as long as you're a person
(41:53):
who is alive, you're constantly changing, you're constantly learning, and
I want you to be able to do everything that
you can and with that learning, with that growth.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So what's one piece of advice you would give your
eighteen year old self?
Speaker 2 (42:06):
My eighteen year old self was something else. Ooh, one
piece of advice I would give my eighteen year old self.
I think I would have asked her to shine brighter.
I think that I felt crown. Crown. I think I
would have told that self of mine to pick what
(42:28):
I want, not because of what someone else wants, but
because of what I actually want, what I actually desire,
because there's only one person that is going to live
my life and have to deal with the consequences or
the regrets of my action or in action. I don't
know what I would have been if I knew that
on a deeper way at eighteen because Nigerian, firstborn and
(42:54):
first gen doctor, lawyer, engineer, and I was supposed to
be the doctor of psychology. And while yes I did
become a sex therapist instead, which was unexpected and not
all it wasn't completely welcomed, it was still a safer
route within what my parents wanted for me as opposed
(43:19):
to what I wanted for myself. I very well may
have been a dancer. I was very heavy in to dance,
modern ballet. That's what I wanted to do. I want
to dance, so I'll probably be a dancer. Right now,
we wouldn't even know each other because you would still.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Be I mean, we might, I don't know. I passed
get across, we'd be talking about dance therapy. Who knows?
Who even knows?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Who knows? So?
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Where can we stay connected with you? Where can we
find our copy of the book. Give us all the
digital information you can.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Stay connected with me on social media. I'm at doctor
dot donna oreoo on Instagram, threads and TikTok. You want
to get your copy of your book drinkwaterbook dot com.
I am trying to be everywhere because you know, I'm
trying to put together like a baby book tour. Like
maybe go somewhere say hi to some people.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
So be on the lookout for her in a city
near you or the internet.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
On the internet for so, I really am deeply in
love with my house. I don't like leaving it.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I completely my stuff.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
They keep my stuff here.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
I get it. I get it. I feel likewise, thank
you so much for spending some more time with us today,
doctor Oriel. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
I'm so glad Doctor Oriowell was able to join us
again today and share more of her expertise and to
share more about her new book, Drink Water and Mind
Your Business. To learn more about her or to grab
a copy of the book, visit the show notes at
Therapy for Black Girls dot com, slash Session for one
one and don't forget to text this episode to two
of your girls right now and tell them to check
(45:04):
it out. Did you know You can leave us a
voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If
there's a book or movie you'd like to suggest, or
if you have thoughts about topics you want us to discuss,
drop us a message at Memo dot fm, slash Therapy
for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
(45:25):
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indychubu, and Tyrie Rush.
Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again this week. I look forward
to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take
(45:47):
good care,
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