June 4, 2025 • 49 mins
In this deeply moving episode, we’re joined by Lisa Price, founder and CEO of Carol’s Daughter, for an intimate conversation about parenting, identity, and unconditional love. Lisa opens up about her journey as a mother to a transgender child, sharing the lessons she’s learned, the challenges she’s faced, and the transformative power of showing up with empathy and authenticity. Together, we explore how her experiences as a parent have shaped her both personally and professionally, and how she continues to advocate for love, acceptance, and inclusion—both at home and within her brand.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session four one four of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. In this deeply
moving episode, we're joined by Lisa Price, founder and CEO
(01:19):
of Carol's Daughter, for an intimate conversation about parenting, identity,
and unconditional love. Lisa opens up about her journey as
a mother to a transgender child, sharing the lessons she's learned,
the challenges she's faced, and the transformative power of showing
up with empathy and authenticity. Together, we explore how her
experiences as a parent have shaped her both personally and professionally,
(01:42):
and how she continues to advocate for love, acceptance, and
inclusion both at home and within her brand. Lisa's story
is one of courage, growth, and unwavering support, offering inspiration
and insight for anyone navigating their own journey of understanding
and connection. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
(02:03):
TVG in session, or join us over in Patreon. For
more conversations about the podcast, you can join us at
Community not Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
thank you so much for joining us today, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Thank you. I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, I'm honored to chat with you. You have been
such an inspiration to so many of us. Your work
has really just opened the door and really helped so
many of us take good care of ourselves when many
people were not making products for us. So it's a
real honor to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, So, if you could get started by talking to
me a little bit about your mental health journey, So
before becoming a parent and balancing the demands of running
a business. Did you already have experience with therapy.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I did not have experience with therapy. There was one
period and I was already a parent at that time
when I was in therapy with my husband. We did
couple's therapy after becoming parents. Because everything was so different,
it was kind of limited and just within that scope.
(03:14):
And at the time, it was something that I looked
at as there is a problem, so let's address the problem.
Not this is maintenance and this is ongoing and it's
not something that you do until there's a cure. I
have a completely different perspective on therapy now. I kind
(03:37):
of can't imagine not having it and you know, not
having that accessibility. But I did used to think of
it as there's a problem, let's address the problem, and
then when you're cured, you can stop. But that's not accurate.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, that's really interesting. Can you say more about like
how that early experience really has helped to shape your
ideas about mental health?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
That experience just having the disinterested third party to talk
to was something that was very eye opening to me,
But at the time it didn't necessarily make the impact
that that is something that you continue to do and
have available to you, the idea of two things existing
(04:26):
at the same time. It doesn't have to be either,
or it can be yes, and was something that I
didn't understand fully until about four years ago. But just
having that experience over twenty years ago at least opened
the door to it being positive, because there was this
(04:48):
feeling twenty you know, over twenty years ago that well,
I screwed up, So this is why we're here, not that. No,
you're here because this is normal and this is what
a lot of people need and it's what we should
be doing. It was almost like it was punishment for
(05:09):
something that I had done incorrectly, and I don't feel
that way now.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Mmmmm.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's interesting and I'm not really surprised because I think
a lot of people find themselves exploring therapy both as
a couple but also maybe just as a parent after
a child enters the relationship because the whole dynamic changes.
And I know that a lot of the work that
you do with Carol's Daughter and the Love Delivered initiative
really focuses on women's maternal health. So can you say
(05:37):
a little bit about what you've learned about the mental
health of moms and how maybe that has changed for
you over time.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Oh my goodness. When you are having a baby, there's
so much attention and conversation on what is the nursery
going to look like? What are you having? Are you
having a boy or a girl? And depending on which
one it is, how much can you shop? And what
(06:05):
are you going to get and what's going to be
cute and you and those are wonderful things that are
that are part of being a parent, and all of
that stuff is fun and if you're somebody who likes
to decorate and decorating a nursery is going to be enjoyable,
and nesting is a part of the process. But no
one talks to you, at least then when I was
(06:27):
becoming a parent. And my oldest is almost twenty nine,
and then the second born is twenty seven and the
youngest is eighteen. So I've been out of this market
for a long time. But no one talks to you
about how you're going to feel, what it's like to
not sleep, what it's like to have this responsibility for
(06:50):
this other human being, and how overwhelming that can be.
I was not a person that experienced postpartum depression, as
I can tell it doesn't seem to be that that
was my story. I don't remember feeling that way, but
I do remember feeling like I have to get this
(07:11):
right and I can't mess up. When why should I
feel that way. I've never done it before. Of Course
I'm going to mess up. Of course I'm going to
do things incorrectly. But there was this feeling that I
wasn't allowed to I've got to get it right. But
how do I get it right? Who helps me get
it right? What is right? What is wrong? So many
(07:32):
questions that just couldn't be answered, that you just learned
as you did it. So sometimes I look back on
it and I'm amazed that my children are relatively healthy
and sound, and you know, it came out okay, considering
I had no guide book whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, And I wonder if you could offer to new
parents some things, because what you're basically talking about is
like giving ourselves grief. There is no hand that comes
with these little people that are brought into our lives,
so there is a lot of like learning on the job.
So what would you say to maybe other parents who
maybe are embarking on this journey newly if.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
You have access to professionals, whether you actually go into
therapy or not. Right, maybe just having a consultation with someone.
So like if you think of it as maybe you're
thinking about buying a house, so you have a conversation
with your accountant or with someone at the bank. You
go to see what do you qualify for? What is
(08:34):
your credit score looking like? If you were to take
out a mortgage, what would your interest rate look like?
You do research on it. You don't just go out
and buy a house, right, You do research to see
where you stand. Do research on what it's like to
become a parent. Talk to other people in your lives
who are parents, and not just about getting up at night,
(08:58):
not just about feeding and things like that. What is
it like when they are in school? What is it
like if you know someone whose child has a learning difficulty?
What is that like? Just so you understand what could
be your life and understand that there's so many people
on that same path and there isn't really anything that
(09:22):
you can do to change that. You can take your
prenatal vitamins, you can go to your doctor's visits, you
can do all of the things that you're supposed to do,
but you can't plan for what is going to happen,
and it doesn't mean that you forgot something or you
(09:43):
did something wrong. If something happens that you didn't plan for,
it's not meant to be perfect. If you think about
your own childhood, your own childhood wasn't perfect. Your mom
and dad were not perfect, your grandparents weren't perfect, but
they they got the job done. And if you or
(10:03):
your partner are in a situation where there was trauma
in your childhood, then definitely addressing that trauma before you
become a parent is critical because hurt people hurt people,
and you can repeat behavior unintentionally. So do the research,
(10:23):
read the books, listen to the podcasts, do all the
things to be as prepared as you can be. But
give yourself grace because you're not going to cover everything.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I really appreciate that analogy to home buying because I
think both parenting and like long term partnership and marriage,
like they feel like these things that I think a
lot of us just expect to do and like expect
to do it right, when a lot of us don't
have any knowledge really of like what makes those things
work and what makes those things healthy, right, And so
it's okay, to talk to other people, to talk to
(10:54):
other couples, to talk to professionals, to get information to
help you with the major decision, just like a house
is a.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Major decision, right exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah. So one of the other times that I think
a lot of people find themselves in a therapist's office
is around entrepreneurship and like business development. I wonder if
you can share a little bit about like how the
things maybe you learned in therapy you found triggling into
your business and how that helped you to make different
decisions in your business.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, to be completely honest, that type of therapy did
not come into my life until just about five years ago.
I started regular therapy during the pandemic. Prior to that,
it was just that situation before, which was like twenty
seven years ago. But being an entrepreneur and I guess
(11:47):
practicing what a therapist would call reality therapy when you're
in the reality of the situation, so reality starts to
teach you things I learned that I couldn't get it
all done. I used to be a person that made
I still make lists, but when I made lists in
the past, I made them with the intent that everything
(12:11):
on that list is going to get checked off on
that day. So if I make a list on Monday,
I can't go to bed until I've checked all the boxes.
And becoming a parent while being an entrepreneur also being
a wife, I started to have lots of things carrying
over to the next day. I couldn't get it all done,
(12:34):
and I was blaming myself at first, like you're just
you're not doing the time management right. Get a different journal,
get a calendar apps, you know, we could figure this out.
And it took a while for me to realize, no,
it's not going to happen. I'm not going to get
everything done. And the way that I managed it for
myself was there were going to be days when I
(12:56):
was going to be a really great wife and mother,
and days when I was going to be an excellent
founder of a business. And maybe there's going to be
a handful of those days every month where all of
that gets done really well simultaneously. And that's okay. It
(13:17):
doesn't have to be every single day I'm perfect. It's
just not possible. But I learned that, I guess the
harder way. I learned it through not achieving the goals
over and over again, but trying to and then finally
recognizing maybe this just isn't doable. I don't have to
give up, but I probably have the bar set a
(13:40):
bit too high.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And so your therapist helps you to kind of look
at what was all on your plate and helped you
to get more realistic maybe about.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
What Well before the therapist, I was figuring it out
for myself. Now that I've been with a therapist. Absolutely,
one of the most profound things that she said to
me was when I had COVID. I had COVID in
twenty twenty two and I had recovered from it wasn't
a particularly bad bout of it, but for about four
(14:10):
weeks after I would get very tired early in the day.
So I would start my day like six am, and
by eleven thirty I needed a nap, and not a
little nap, a long nap. And I said to my therapist,
I said, this is so hard to get adjusted to
because I'm not used to being this sleepy and like
(14:31):
leading to nap every day. You know. I thought that
I was better and that everything was okay, And she said, well,
why don't you use this as an opportunity to learn
what tired feels like because up until this point, the
only thing you really know is exhaustion. And it was like,
bo I was so good at overriding, I'm not tired.
(14:58):
I could keep going, you know that. It was being
sick that taught me, Oh, this is tired, This happens
before exhaustion. This is what it looks like. So that
was a huge thing for me. It was a huge,
huge discovery to understand the difference between tired and exhausted.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
And how would you describe your relationship to risk and
like taking breaks? How would you say it is now.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Much better than it used to be. I had to
actually write it down in the schedule. Ten minutes of nothing,
fifteen minutes knitting, twenty minutes read, and no matter what
was going on, I had to make myself do that.
Everything goes into my schedule. Everything, And I'm much better
(15:53):
at getting the cues sooner than before, and I feel
more balanced and I don't feel anxiety when I look
at Monday's lists and there's five items on Monday's list
that I never got to that spill over to Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday. I'm okay as long as it gets
(16:14):
done within a week. I'm good, got it.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. One
of the other things that you've been very publicity and
talking about is your relationship with your children, and especially
(16:38):
your daughter. So can you talk a little bit about,
like when she came out to you and what that
experience was like.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Okay, to be clear, I do have two daughters, So
the daughter that we're referring to is the older one,
my second born, and Andy was born male. What is
the correct way to say it, born and classified as male.
I guess that's the right way to say, categorized as male. Ever,
(17:06):
and was always different, just different in the way that
she moved through the world, the way that she processed
her humor. She was just different. And at that time,
the scope of language that my husband and I had,
and I guess scope of possibilities of what that meant
(17:30):
was maybe end is gay and just doesn't know it yet,
And we were both raised to accept. We both have
close family members that came out to the family. Their
lives were hidden to some extent, but not hidden with family,
so we didn't view anything as concerning outside of safety,
(17:55):
you know, because not everybody feels the same way so
that would be our only concern is that our child
is safe. So I remember having conversations with Endy when
she was younger that if she felt that she were gay,
that was something that she could talk about with us
and it would be okay, because we didn't want to
(18:17):
assume that they knew that it was okay, because it
isn't okay with a lot of people. And so later
when there were more things in the news, more things
on television, you know, you start learning about non binary
and trans and there's more options if you will, more
(18:37):
dialogue around the topic. I remember when they told us
that they were non binary, and I didn't struggle with
that as her identity. I struggled more with understanding, what
is it that I'm supposed to do with that, and
(18:58):
how do I support that? And I got it wrong
a couple of times. But we had conversations about it, which,
you know, which was great. But non binary was harder
for me to wrap my head around because I was
accustomed to this way or this way. And I'm actually
(19:19):
very appreciative that our daughter's journey started with non binary
because the idea of somebody being gender fluid and not
identifying one way or the other is very very interesting
when you think of how society is set up with
certain roles and the ability to live in between is
(19:41):
something that I think a lot of us would benefit
from if we could do that, if we weren't relegated
to certain tasks and expectations based on our gender or
based on our color.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Can you say more about getting it wrong in some
of those conversations, because I think it's for a lot
of people that I don't want say the wrong thing.
How did you navigate like getting those wrong?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Well, when some of this was happening, when some of
her transition was taking place, she wasn't living at home.
She was in school and we were going through the pandemic,
So coming home to visit was challenging because her dad
and I were considered high risk and she would have
(20:24):
to fly home and so forth. So there was a
lot of communicating over the phone. And when she started
HRT and decided to transition from identifying as non binary
to being more she they I thought that there was
a transition to what you would refer to as feminine,
(20:50):
and I ordered clothes for her, and I ordered color
and flowers and ruffles, all the things, thinking oh, you know,
we're not non binary? Where she they? So that's feminine
(21:10):
to me, and her being a sweetheart and not wanting
to hurt my feelings didn't say anything, and I never
see pictures of like the outfits, and I didn't hear
anything like oh I love the shirt, I love the
dre you know. It was just sort of quiet. And
(21:31):
so I said, did I mess up with the clothes?
And that's when I found out that I did. And
I learned that her definition of feminine was very different
from mine. Her definition of feminine was more androgynous and
more neutral tones and not overly frilly and colorful and floral.
(21:55):
And it was really interesting because I didn't expect myself
to have played into such a stereotype, and I did,
you know, it was like somebody finding out that they're
having a girl and painting everything pink and lavender. I
fell right into the trap. And I thought that I
was being so modern but grateful that it didn't cause
(22:18):
any you know, friction between us. She completely understood what
I did, but didn't know how to explain that I
got it wrong because she didn't want to hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And I just want to back up a bit, Lisa.
When you say HRT, can you tell us what you're
referring to about that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, So Endy started hormone replacement therapy. I believe it
was April of twenty twenty one when she decided to transition,
and she was an adult, so it was a decision
that she could make on her own. She didn't have
to talk to her dad and I to get permission
or anything like that. And the scariest part for me
(22:57):
with that was because the pandemic, she wasn't home and
I didn't know what transition was going to look like
for her. And I remember calling and asking what is
it going to be like? Because I felt like maybe
(23:20):
I needed to go visit her to say goodbye to
the person that I was used to seeing, because up
until that point, I wasn't still fully clear on what
becoming she meant to her. So was there going to
be makeup? Was there going to be jewelry? Is she
(23:41):
going to change her name? Change her hair? And so
the next time that I see them, are they going
to be drastically different from the person that I saw before?
And I just wanted to say goodbye. And that's when
she assured me of this is what I see myself
looking like. I think I'm going to look a lot
(24:04):
like I do now, and I'm not really into makeup.
I wear it sometimes, but not a lot. And she
always wore her hair long, so that wasn't going to
be different. So she kind of you know, like, we
talked through it, we cried, and I felt like I
didn't have to go to Atlanta and hug somebody for
the last time. And when she came home, the most
(24:27):
amazing thing to me was it was like seeing myself
at that age. There's a lot of similarity in the
way that she dresses and the way she styles her hair.
It's very much like what I looked like at that
age because I wasn't really into makeup either. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Thank you so much for sharing that, Lisa, And I
think what you're sharing is like this piece that I
think a lot of parents struggle with, even in their
desire to be supportive and you know, affirming and like, hey,
this is totally fine. I'm one hundred percent behind you.
Like there it's still this grief of is this person
going to still exist?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Right? Like?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Do I need to go and say goodbye to this person.
Can you say more about, like how you navigated that,
maybe both with Indie and maybe on your own and
with your husband. I don't know if you talk with
the therapist about that. What was it like navigating that
grief for you?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Honestly, the grief was very limited because I realized through
talking to her about it that I wasn't losing something.
And then when I saw her, I really didn't see
somebody different. I think it would have been different if
I had raised a child who was a football player,
(25:43):
really butch, short hair, did all of the masculine things,
and then suddenly wore tunics and had long hair and
spoke in a softer voice. But I was already raising
some one that was different, that didn't dress like everybody else.
(26:05):
That when they went to their high school prom, they
wore a man's tuxedo jacket with a skirt and Doc Martin's,
a full face of makeup, polished nails, you know, like
there was this mix of masculine and feminine. I think
there was perceived grief on my part, but having that conversation,
(26:27):
I realized that it wasn't necessary and it definitely didn't
warrant risking health to get on a plane, and then
when she came home. It was fine for me, it
was fine for my husband. We had to get used
to saying well. First we got used to saying they, they,
(26:47):
and them, and then we got used to saying she,
and she was always very patient with us. And then
it's also helpful that there's other children who buy into
this as well, so they remind you when you forget.
You know that. There were many times when I'd be
(27:08):
having conversation with the older sibling or the younger sibling
and I would say he and get corrected, Who's he?
Who's that? I don't know who you're talking about? Who
are we talking about? And then I'd say sorry, sorry, they, Sorry,
sorry she?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know, but.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I can see where it can be difficult if you
have people in the process that don't give you grace
and aren't patient, and if you're not patient with yourself.
And we were patient with each other, and so yeah,
it wasn't I think because and I'll go into my
(27:47):
past a little bit. My first marriage was to a
person who was actually gay but didn't know it and
didn't allow themselves to be that and viewed that as wrong,
and so they were having a fight with themselves to
not be that and were trying to be something that
(28:10):
they weren't, so they weren't living their truth, and in
not living their truth, they were a horrible, awful husband.
And it was a horrible, awful marriage that didn't even
last a full year. Living through that at the age
of twenty, because I was only twenty when I married
that person, taught me you can't not be true to yourself,
(28:33):
can't pretend to be something that you're not. So I
never wanted anyone that I loved to be unhappy. I
never wanted anyone that I loved to not be able
to be who they are. So if I saw that
someone might be different from everybody else, I always wanted
them to know you can be who you are around me.
(28:54):
Don't feel like you have to pretend. Don't introduce your
girlfriend or your boyfriend as your cousin. Tell me who
they are, It's okay. So it was more important to
me for Endy to live her truth than for somebody
else to be comfortable.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So how would you say You've been surprised? Maybe by
how your relationship with Indy has evolved throughout the transition
up until now.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
The biggest surprise. Honestly is I started off being a
parent with being a parent to my eldest, my son.
Very shortly thereafter Endi came Andy and Forrest are only
nineteen months apart, and so then I thought I was
the mom of two sons, and then I became the
(29:46):
mom to a daughter. My youngest Becca is also a daughter,
and there were a lot of I guess mother daughter
expectations that I I didn't place them on Becca because
she was too young for me to do that. She's
only eighteen now, but I expected those things to exist
(30:12):
with she and I, and we do have a mother
daughter relationship, but there were just certain things that I
just assumed, well, this will be like it was with
me and my mom. And even before Endy came out,
I had that relationship with Andy and not with Becca.
(30:33):
So when she eventually came out, it was sort of
like you were the daughter all along. And that was
not to negate that I have a relationship with Becca
and I love Beca and I love Beca as my
youngest daughter. But if I compare Lisa and Carol and
(30:57):
what that relationship was like, the Endi Lisa relationship is
closest to that, and the Beca Lisa relationship is a
completely different mother daughter relationship, just a special but just
very different. And that's what was surprising, the assumption that
that would exist solely because each of us were classified
(31:20):
at birth as female. And it doesn't work that way.
It's the personality and it's not really tied to the
gender itself.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Can you say more about like some of the uniqueness
of that relationship. So what kinds of things maybe were
you expecting to have and do with Becca that you
ended up then having with Indy.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Uh, crafting. I thought that I'd be teaching her how
to crochet or knit. She tried, but it wasn't really
for her. That's not her thing. And it is with
Endy and Endi embroiders and does a little bit of sewing,
which I don't do it all. So we have that
(32:02):
in common. All of us have a bit of a
thing with fragrance, but Beca and I are more into
it than Endy and I. And when it comes to cooking,
we all cook, but there's a different curiosity that Endy
has that Betha doesn't have. Becca wants to learn how
(32:25):
to do it so she can prepare it for herself
whenever she wants, and Endy wants to learn how to
do it because she wants to be able to carry
on to traditions, and that could just be age. One
is twenty seven and one is eighteen, so Endy thinks
of it as carrying on the lineage of the family,
(32:45):
where Becca doesn't look at it that way. But again,
she's eighteen, so that could change.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Are any of your children interested in entrepreneurship and following
in your footsteps in that way?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Becca? For sure, she looks at it now from the
perspective of, you know, doing hair, doing nails, doing lashes,
always being able to find her own money and not
being tied to a job. And Andy is artistic and
wants to be able to pursue their art, but doesn't
(33:15):
want to pursue their art for the sake of money,
so she will always have like another job to pay
the bills, but does her art. And then Forrest, the oldest.
He is not really an entrepreneur, but also not the
(33:35):
traditional employee either, so he's more like the freelance guy
a bit like his dad.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. So
as a mother, Lisa, how would you maybe share the
importance of talking to other mothers, other parents about the
importance of allyship to the trans community. It sounds like
(34:04):
you had a very long history I think of being
like an ally and being very open to people who
identify in different ways. But what kinds of things would
you say to other people who maybe are new to
this or still have some resistance.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
It's very important that you open up your circle to
include people that are going through what you're going through
and understand it. Because the most important thing for me,
the way that I look at it, I go back
to that first marriage and how unhappy that person was,
(34:40):
how miserable and lost, and just not wanting anyone to
live that way, and really try to open up your
mind to understand that it isn't choice in the way
that you think that somebody can choose one way or
the other. It is who they are. And you know,
(35:04):
when I think about envy from diapers, we just knew
something was different. We didn't know what it was, and
like I said, because we didn't know about trans and
non binary and didn't have that language, then we just said, well,
maybe he's gay, But there's so much more than that.
(35:25):
You know, she's never been been tested to see if
she's on the spectrum, and sometimes we think that could
be a thing. Also, I think there's a lot of
us out there that are undiagnosed. I wouldn't be surprised
if I'm on the spectrum. I have a thing with
fragrance that is not natural, can be very ocd about
certain things. I don't like to touch paper clips, I
(35:48):
have a thing with textures. I'm sure that there's something,
but for the most part, I could function and be normal,
so you know, it doesn't go diagnosed. We have to
look at these things as not failures on our part
or something that we didn't do as parents, something that
we miss, something that's wrong with our children, and just
(36:09):
understand that it's differences and we can't all be identical,
and it's okay to be different, and it's okay to
allow this person that came from you to be different.
There's a piece called On Children by Khalil Jabrod that
is phenomenal and it was something that I heard long
(36:32):
before I became a parent. I didn't become a parent
till I was thirty three, and I read On Children
when I was about eighteen or nineteen, and he says,
your children are not your children. They are the sons
and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you,
but they are not from you, and though they are
(36:52):
with you, they belong not to you. There's more to
it but those words. I'm so grateful that they came
into my life before I was a parent, and it's
how I tried to operate as a parent. They come
through me, but they are not from me, and I'm
here to aid their development, not completely orchestrated.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Which I think is an important distinction. Right, Even as
you talked earlier about like these expectations and ideas about
that we have about who our children will be and
what our relationship will look a lot it is based
on this idea that like we can predetermine some of
that and we cannot.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, we can't. We can't.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah. So, knowing what you know now, what kinds of
things would you share for other parents about having important
conversations even when kids are young about identity. It sounds
like you and your husband, you know, talk with her
very early on, like hey, if this is your reality,
like we're totally fine. What kinds of things would you
say for other parents to keep in mind about identity conversations.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's important to be mindful of your language. You know,
children will grab toys for so many different reasons. A
boy doesn't grab a truck because they were a boy.
They just grab a truck because maybe nobody else bought
anything other than trucks. So maybe if you have a daughter,
(38:20):
maybe you buy her a truck and not just buy
her dolls or vice versa, just to see what happens
and not take something away because well that's too girly.
You can't really indoctrinate them in that way. They're going
to go for what they want. And Dy growing up,
(38:44):
did have more trucks around her than she did dolls,
but she gravitated to legos and building and drawing and coloring,
which was different from four. Her older brother Forrest wasn't
interested in that, and then beca coming into the mix
(39:06):
with these two older brothers. She did everything. She liked
her dolls. But Becca liked her dolls because she was
in charge. They had to sit and listen to her,
and she gave them lessons and did school and she
was the teacher. So it was her way of like
being a boss and being assertive. The dolls have to
(39:27):
listen to me and becha. Mostly liked to play with
food and pretend to cook, and she loved to go shopping.
She loved cash register, she loved calculators. I think you
let them play and you see where they go and
what they're drawn to, and just let it happen and
(39:48):
not try to guide them because this is right and
this is wrong, or this is what girls do and
this is what boys do. And sometimes that can be
hard for people. And I think if you think about
it from any place in your life where you were judged,
So if you are a black or brown person who's
(40:09):
experienced racism and know what it's like to be excluded
from things because you're black or brown, think of that
and how limiting that was on you and all the
things that you didn't do because you weren't allowed to
It wasn't open to you. Nobody told you that black
people did that too. Women who don't get to do
(40:30):
certain things because they're women and men are encouraged to
do them. You know, now when we look at sports,
we see so many more young women being athletes because
it's been okay to do it. The WNBA has been
around long enough that there are two generations of young
(40:52):
girls seeing that it's okay to be a ballplayer and
going for it when we're a normal size. There's things
that fat people can't do, and there's things that only
skinny people can do. So when you think of those
barriers that maybe got put in your way, try not
to put those barriers in your children's way because you
(41:14):
think boys do this and girls do that. Just let
them be people.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Were there other resources that you found helpful that you
might want to offer to others, So you've already mentioned
khalil Ja Brown's other other podcasts or magazines or documentaries
or things that you've read that would be good for people.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I think a lot of what my husband and I
learned we learned being the parents of our eldest child,
who is dyslexic and has add being D's parents, even
though Envy wasn't diagnosed with something specific, was always different
(41:53):
and we always handled her a certain way because she
was different. And then being in therapy with our youngest
with Becca, who has ADHD, there's a lot of things
that we've learned about parenting and parenting differently, especially with
the younger one, which the other two benefited from because
(42:16):
when she was born, they were nine and ten, so
by the time she was in therapy, they were in
high school and getting ready to leave middle school. So
learning how to have a conversation with the child and
not just issue edicts because I was raised on why
(42:38):
do I have to do this? Because I said, so,
that's how I was raised, and I did the same thing,
and that worked with the first two, didn't work so
well with the third. So by the time we had
our third child, like, parenting had to get a little
bit different. So specific books. I wish I could say, oh,
(43:00):
this was great and that was great, but I don't
have anything that comes to mind. Well, no one thing
that does come to mind. And it's gonna sound really wild.
But Goldie Hawn, who a lot of people don't know
because they're not as old as I am, but google her.
She's Kate Hudson's mom. She was dyslexic and likely had
(43:21):
other undiagnosed learning difficulties, and her autobiography is super interesting,
or was to me being the parent of someone who
was dyslexic, it was really interesting hearing her tell what
it was like to grow up with her brain not
working like everybody else's and then there was a series
(43:44):
that I believe was on TLC about a trans child
named Jazz, and I can't think of what the name
of the show was. But my husband, of all people,
because he does not watch shows like that, ended up
watching that show and found it really interesting watching Jazz
(44:06):
initially live as female and then eventually transitioned during the show.
But watching that was our first exposure to, oh, there's
a lot of kids that are going through this, and
this is what it can look like, and this is
what parents deal with and it was really interesting for us.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Thank you so much for offering those So Lisa, as
someone who has been in business and has been responsible
for managing teams, I wonder if there's anything you can
share for other entrepreneurs or business owners about like how
to support someone on your team who may be transitioning.
Is there anything that comes to mind for you?
Speaker 2 (44:45):
There one thing that I think goes a long way,
and some companies do this on your emails. You identify
who you are so you know it'll say Lisa M. Price,
founder Carol's daughter. She her. A lot of us may
(45:06):
think I don't have to declare my pronouns because it's
obvious I'm not trans, so why do I have to
identify who I am? And the reason that you have
to do that is because you have that luxury of
everybody knows who you are and what you are. So
(45:26):
you declaring it and making it clear just in case
there's any ambiguity, allows for the person who might be
afraid to declare who they are the freedom to say it.
Because you saying it, you've made it okay. So that
was something that was a part of the corporate structure
(45:51):
where my company sits, so that didn't have to be
an initiative that was discussed. But as a small business person,
you are your corporate structure, so that can definitely be
a first step no matter what is to declare add
your chosen pronouns to your email sign off so it's
(46:12):
not just your title, and it makes people see, oh,
it's okay for me to be who I am. If
you have the ability to make your bathrooms gender neutral,
if you're building an office, I think a lot of
people now when they build office space, they don't build
(46:32):
male and female restrooms. They just build restrooms and make
each stall private so that no matter what's going on,
you're in there. By yourself. So that's something that you
can do now if you inherit a space that's already
set up a certain way. You know, the only thing
that you can do is offer, you know, accommodations to
(46:53):
someone if you become aware that they need them. But
it's having a conversation. It's asking that person permission to
have the conversation. Do I have permission to ask you questions?
There are things that I would like to understand about
how I can better support you all of that.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Thank you for then. I think that's a great place
for people to start. Our producers did look up the
name of that show. The name of the show was
called I Am Jazz.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yes, yes, yes, that was it.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Yes, yes, Lisa, this has been so wonderful. I really
enjoyed talking with you. Let us know where we can
stay connected with you. What is your website as well
as any social media channels you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
The website for Carol's Daughter is Carol's Daughter dot com.
We also have a store on Amazon and Carol's Daughter
is the Instagram handle for the brand, as well as
the TikTok and the Facebook. I am Lesaprise is who
I am on Instagram. And on TikTok perfect.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
We'll be sure to include those in the show notes.
Thank you so much, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Thank you. This was great. I loved having this conversation.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
I'm so glad Lisa was able to join us for
this conversation. Her openness and love remind us of the
strength and vulnerability and the power of affirming every child's truth.
We're very grateful for her voice, her journey in the
space she's helping create for acceptance and growth. To learn
more about Lisa and Carrol's daughter, be sure to visit
(48:32):
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
session four one four, and don't forget to text this
episode to two of your girls right now and tell
them to check it out. Did you know that you
can leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions
for the podcast. If you have a movie or a
book you'd like us to review, or even have thoughts
around people you'd like to hear on the podcast, drop
(48:53):
us a voice message at memo dot fm slash Therapy
for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
You just might f on the podcast if you're looking
for a therapist in your area. Visit our therapist directory
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode
was produced by Alice Ellis, Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing
(49:14):
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing
this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session four one four of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. In this deeply
moving episode, we're joined by Lisa Price, founder and CEO
(01:19):
of Carol's Daughter, for an intimate conversation about parenting, identity,
and unconditional love. Lisa opens up about her journey as
a mother to a transgender child, sharing the lessons she's learned,
the challenges she's faced, and the transformative power of showing
up with empathy and authenticity. Together, we explore how her
experiences as a parent have shaped her both personally and professionally,
(01:42):
and how she continues to advocate for love, acceptance, and
inclusion both at home and within her brand. Lisa's story
is one of courage, growth, and unwavering support, offering inspiration
and insight for anyone navigating their own journey of understanding
and connection. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
(02:03):
TVG in session, or join us over in Patreon. For
more conversations about the podcast, you can join us at
Community not Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
thank you so much for joining us today, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Thank you. I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, I'm honored to chat with you. You have been
such an inspiration to so many of us. Your work
has really just opened the door and really helped so
many of us take good care of ourselves when many
people were not making products for us. So it's a
real honor to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, So, if you could get started by talking to
me a little bit about your mental health journey, So
before becoming a parent and balancing the demands of running
a business. Did you already have experience with therapy.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I did not have experience with therapy. There was one
period and I was already a parent at that time
when I was in therapy with my husband. We did
couple's therapy after becoming parents. Because everything was so different,
it was kind of limited and just within that scope.
(03:14):
And at the time, it was something that I looked
at as there is a problem, so let's address the problem.
Not this is maintenance and this is ongoing and it's
not something that you do until there's a cure. I
have a completely different perspective on therapy now. I kind
(03:37):
of can't imagine not having it and you know, not
having that accessibility. But I did used to think of
it as there's a problem, let's address the problem, and
then when you're cured, you can stop. But that's not accurate.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, that's really interesting. Can you say more about like
how that early experience really has helped to shape your
ideas about mental health?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
That experience just having the disinterested third party to talk
to was something that was very eye opening to me,
But at the time it didn't necessarily make the impact
that that is something that you continue to do and
have available to you, the idea of two things existing
(04:26):
at the same time. It doesn't have to be either,
or it can be yes, and was something that I
didn't understand fully until about four years ago. But just
having that experience over twenty years ago at least opened
the door to it being positive, because there was this
(04:48):
feeling twenty you know, over twenty years ago that well,
I screwed up, So this is why we're here, not that. No,
you're here because this is normal and this is what
a lot of people need and it's what we should
be doing. It was almost like it was punishment for
(05:09):
something that I had done incorrectly, and I don't feel
that way now.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Mmmmm.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's interesting and I'm not really surprised because I think
a lot of people find themselves exploring therapy both as
a couple but also maybe just as a parent after
a child enters the relationship because the whole dynamic changes.
And I know that a lot of the work that
you do with Carol's Daughter and the Love Delivered initiative
really focuses on women's maternal health. So can you say
(05:37):
a little bit about what you've learned about the mental
health of moms and how maybe that has changed for
you over time.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Oh my goodness. When you are having a baby, there's
so much attention and conversation on what is the nursery
going to look like? What are you having? Are you
having a boy or a girl? And depending on which
one it is, how much can you shop? And what
(06:05):
are you going to get and what's going to be
cute and you and those are wonderful things that are
that are part of being a parent, and all of
that stuff is fun and if you're somebody who likes
to decorate and decorating a nursery is going to be enjoyable,
and nesting is a part of the process. But no
one talks to you, at least then when I was
(06:27):
becoming a parent. And my oldest is almost twenty nine,
and then the second born is twenty seven and the
youngest is eighteen. So I've been out of this market
for a long time. But no one talks to you
about how you're going to feel, what it's like to
not sleep, what it's like to have this responsibility for
(06:50):
this other human being, and how overwhelming that can be.
I was not a person that experienced postpartum depression, as
I can tell it doesn't seem to be that that
was my story. I don't remember feeling that way, but
I do remember feeling like I have to get this
(07:11):
right and I can't mess up. When why should I
feel that way. I've never done it before. Of Course
I'm going to mess up. Of course I'm going to
do things incorrectly. But there was this feeling that I
wasn't allowed to I've got to get it right. But
how do I get it right? Who helps me get
it right? What is right? What is wrong? So many
(07:32):
questions that just couldn't be answered, that you just learned
as you did it. So sometimes I look back on
it and I'm amazed that my children are relatively healthy
and sound, and you know, it came out okay, considering
I had no guide book whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, And I wonder if you could offer to new
parents some things, because what you're basically talking about is
like giving ourselves grief. There is no hand that comes
with these little people that are brought into our lives,
so there is a lot of like learning on the job.
So what would you say to maybe other parents who
maybe are embarking on this journey newly if.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
You have access to professionals, whether you actually go into
therapy or not. Right, maybe just having a consultation with someone.
So like if you think of it as maybe you're
thinking about buying a house, so you have a conversation
with your accountant or with someone at the bank. You
go to see what do you qualify for? What is
(08:34):
your credit score looking like? If you were to take
out a mortgage, what would your interest rate look like?
You do research on it. You don't just go out
and buy a house, right, You do research to see
where you stand. Do research on what it's like to
become a parent. Talk to other people in your lives
who are parents, and not just about getting up at night,
(08:58):
not just about feeding and things like that. What is
it like when they are in school? What is it
like if you know someone whose child has a learning difficulty?
What is that like? Just so you understand what could
be your life and understand that there's so many people
on that same path and there isn't really anything that
(09:22):
you can do to change that. You can take your
prenatal vitamins, you can go to your doctor's visits, you
can do all of the things that you're supposed to do,
but you can't plan for what is going to happen,
and it doesn't mean that you forgot something or you
(09:43):
did something wrong. If something happens that you didn't plan for,
it's not meant to be perfect. If you think about
your own childhood, your own childhood wasn't perfect. Your mom
and dad were not perfect, your grandparents weren't perfect, but
they they got the job done. And if you or
(10:03):
your partner are in a situation where there was trauma
in your childhood, then definitely addressing that trauma before you
become a parent is critical because hurt people hurt people,
and you can repeat behavior unintentionally. So do the research,
(10:23):
read the books, listen to the podcasts, do all the
things to be as prepared as you can be. But
give yourself grace because you're not going to cover everything.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I really appreciate that analogy to home buying because I
think both parenting and like long term partnership and marriage,
like they feel like these things that I think a
lot of us just expect to do and like expect
to do it right, when a lot of us don't
have any knowledge really of like what makes those things
work and what makes those things healthy, right, And so
it's okay, to talk to other people, to talk to
(10:54):
other couples, to talk to professionals, to get information to
help you with the major decision, just like a house
is a.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Major decision, right exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah. So one of the other times that I think
a lot of people find themselves in a therapist's office
is around entrepreneurship and like business development. I wonder if
you can share a little bit about like how the
things maybe you learned in therapy you found triggling into
your business and how that helped you to make different
decisions in your business.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, to be completely honest, that type of therapy did
not come into my life until just about five years ago.
I started regular therapy during the pandemic. Prior to that,
it was just that situation before, which was like twenty
seven years ago. But being an entrepreneur and I guess
(11:47):
practicing what a therapist would call reality therapy when you're
in the reality of the situation, so reality starts to
teach you things I learned that I couldn't get it
all done. I used to be a person that made
I still make lists, but when I made lists in
the past, I made them with the intent that everything
(12:11):
on that list is going to get checked off on
that day. So if I make a list on Monday,
I can't go to bed until I've checked all the boxes.
And becoming a parent while being an entrepreneur also being
a wife, I started to have lots of things carrying
over to the next day. I couldn't get it all done,
(12:34):
and I was blaming myself at first, like you're just
you're not doing the time management right. Get a different journal,
get a calendar apps, you know, we could figure this out.
And it took a while for me to realize, no,
it's not going to happen. I'm not going to get
everything done. And the way that I managed it for
myself was there were going to be days when I
(12:56):
was going to be a really great wife and mother,
and days when I was going to be an excellent
founder of a business. And maybe there's going to be
a handful of those days every month where all of
that gets done really well simultaneously. And that's okay. It
(13:17):
doesn't have to be every single day I'm perfect. It's
just not possible. But I learned that, I guess the
harder way. I learned it through not achieving the goals
over and over again, but trying to and then finally
recognizing maybe this just isn't doable. I don't have to
give up, but I probably have the bar set a
(13:40):
bit too high.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And so your therapist helps you to kind of look
at what was all on your plate and helped you
to get more realistic maybe about.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
What Well before the therapist, I was figuring it out
for myself. Now that I've been with a therapist. Absolutely,
one of the most profound things that she said to
me was when I had COVID. I had COVID in
twenty twenty two and I had recovered from it wasn't
a particularly bad bout of it, but for about four
(14:10):
weeks after I would get very tired early in the day.
So I would start my day like six am, and
by eleven thirty I needed a nap, and not a
little nap, a long nap. And I said to my therapist,
I said, this is so hard to get adjusted to
because I'm not used to being this sleepy and like
(14:31):
leading to nap every day. You know. I thought that
I was better and that everything was okay, And she said, well,
why don't you use this as an opportunity to learn
what tired feels like because up until this point, the
only thing you really know is exhaustion. And it was like,
bo I was so good at overriding, I'm not tired.
(14:58):
I could keep going, you know that. It was being
sick that taught me, Oh, this is tired, This happens
before exhaustion. This is what it looks like. So that
was a huge thing for me. It was a huge,
huge discovery to understand the difference between tired and exhausted.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
And how would you describe your relationship to risk and
like taking breaks? How would you say it is now.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Much better than it used to be. I had to
actually write it down in the schedule. Ten minutes of nothing,
fifteen minutes knitting, twenty minutes read, and no matter what
was going on, I had to make myself do that.
Everything goes into my schedule. Everything, And I'm much better
(15:53):
at getting the cues sooner than before, and I feel
more balanced and I don't feel anxiety when I look
at Monday's lists and there's five items on Monday's list
that I never got to that spill over to Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday. I'm okay as long as it gets
(16:14):
done within a week. I'm good, got it.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. One
of the other things that you've been very publicity and
talking about is your relationship with your children, and especially
(16:38):
your daughter. So can you talk a little bit about,
like when she came out to you and what that
experience was like.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Okay, to be clear, I do have two daughters, So
the daughter that we're referring to is the older one,
my second born, and Andy was born male. What is
the correct way to say it, born and classified as male.
I guess that's the right way to say, categorized as male. Ever,
(17:06):
and was always different, just different in the way that
she moved through the world, the way that she processed
her humor. She was just different. And at that time,
the scope of language that my husband and I had,
and I guess scope of possibilities of what that meant
(17:30):
was maybe end is gay and just doesn't know it yet,
And we were both raised to accept. We both have
close family members that came out to the family. Their
lives were hidden to some extent, but not hidden with family,
so we didn't view anything as concerning outside of safety,
(17:55):
you know, because not everybody feels the same way so
that would be our only concern is that our child
is safe. So I remember having conversations with Endy when
she was younger that if she felt that she were gay,
that was something that she could talk about with us
and it would be okay, because we didn't want to
(18:17):
assume that they knew that it was okay, because it
isn't okay with a lot of people. And so later
when there were more things in the news, more things
on television, you know, you start learning about non binary
and trans and there's more options if you will, more
(18:37):
dialogue around the topic. I remember when they told us
that they were non binary, and I didn't struggle with
that as her identity. I struggled more with understanding, what
is it that I'm supposed to do with that, and
(18:58):
how do I support that? And I got it wrong
a couple of times. But we had conversations about it, which,
you know, which was great. But non binary was harder
for me to wrap my head around because I was
accustomed to this way or this way. And I'm actually
(19:19):
very appreciative that our daughter's journey started with non binary
because the idea of somebody being gender fluid and not
identifying one way or the other is very very interesting
when you think of how society is set up with
certain roles and the ability to live in between is
(19:41):
something that I think a lot of us would benefit
from if we could do that, if we weren't relegated
to certain tasks and expectations based on our gender or
based on our color.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Can you say more about getting it wrong in some
of those conversations, because I think it's for a lot
of people that I don't want say the wrong thing.
How did you navigate like getting those wrong?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Well, when some of this was happening, when some of
her transition was taking place, she wasn't living at home.
She was in school and we were going through the pandemic,
So coming home to visit was challenging because her dad
and I were considered high risk and she would have
(20:24):
to fly home and so forth. So there was a
lot of communicating over the phone. And when she started
HRT and decided to transition from identifying as non binary
to being more she they I thought that there was
a transition to what you would refer to as feminine,
(20:50):
and I ordered clothes for her, and I ordered color
and flowers and ruffles, all the things, thinking oh, you know,
we're not non binary? Where she they? So that's feminine
(21:10):
to me, and her being a sweetheart and not wanting
to hurt my feelings didn't say anything, and I never
see pictures of like the outfits, and I didn't hear
anything like oh I love the shirt, I love the
dre you know. It was just sort of quiet. And
(21:31):
so I said, did I mess up with the clothes?
And that's when I found out that I did. And
I learned that her definition of feminine was very different
from mine. Her definition of feminine was more androgynous and
more neutral tones and not overly frilly and colorful and floral.
(21:55):
And it was really interesting because I didn't expect myself
to have played into such a stereotype, and I did,
you know, it was like somebody finding out that they're
having a girl and painting everything pink and lavender. I
fell right into the trap. And I thought that I
was being so modern but grateful that it didn't cause
(22:18):
any you know, friction between us. She completely understood what
I did, but didn't know how to explain that I
got it wrong because she didn't want to hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And I just want to back up a bit, Lisa.
When you say HRT, can you tell us what you're
referring to about that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, So Endy started hormone replacement therapy. I believe it
was April of twenty twenty one when she decided to transition,
and she was an adult, so it was a decision
that she could make on her own. She didn't have
to talk to her dad and I to get permission
or anything like that. And the scariest part for me
(22:57):
with that was because the pandemic, she wasn't home and
I didn't know what transition was going to look like
for her. And I remember calling and asking what is
it going to be like? Because I felt like maybe
(23:20):
I needed to go visit her to say goodbye to
the person that I was used to seeing, because up
until that point, I wasn't still fully clear on what
becoming she meant to her. So was there going to
be makeup? Was there going to be jewelry? Is she
(23:41):
going to change her name? Change her hair? And so
the next time that I see them, are they going
to be drastically different from the person that I saw before?
And I just wanted to say goodbye. And that's when
she assured me of this is what I see myself
looking like. I think I'm going to look a lot
(24:04):
like I do now, and I'm not really into makeup.
I wear it sometimes, but not a lot. And she
always wore her hair long, so that wasn't going to
be different. So she kind of you know, like, we
talked through it, we cried, and I felt like I
didn't have to go to Atlanta and hug somebody for
the last time. And when she came home, the most
(24:27):
amazing thing to me was it was like seeing myself
at that age. There's a lot of similarity in the
way that she dresses and the way she styles her hair.
It's very much like what I looked like at that
age because I wasn't really into makeup either. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Thank you so much for sharing that, Lisa, And I
think what you're sharing is like this piece that I
think a lot of parents struggle with, even in their
desire to be supportive and you know, affirming and like, hey,
this is totally fine. I'm one hundred percent behind you.
Like there it's still this grief of is this person
going to still exist?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Right? Like?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Do I need to go and say goodbye to this person.
Can you say more about, like how you navigated that,
maybe both with Indie and maybe on your own and
with your husband. I don't know if you talk with
the therapist about that. What was it like navigating that
grief for you?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Honestly, the grief was very limited because I realized through
talking to her about it that I wasn't losing something.
And then when I saw her, I really didn't see
somebody different. I think it would have been different if
I had raised a child who was a football player,
(25:43):
really butch, short hair, did all of the masculine things,
and then suddenly wore tunics and had long hair and
spoke in a softer voice. But I was already raising
some one that was different, that didn't dress like everybody else.
(26:05):
That when they went to their high school prom, they
wore a man's tuxedo jacket with a skirt and Doc Martin's,
a full face of makeup, polished nails, you know, like
there was this mix of masculine and feminine. I think
there was perceived grief on my part, but having that conversation,
(26:27):
I realized that it wasn't necessary and it definitely didn't
warrant risking health to get on a plane, and then
when she came home. It was fine for me, it
was fine for my husband. We had to get used
to saying well. First we got used to saying they, they,
(26:47):
and them, and then we got used to saying she,
and she was always very patient with us. And then
it's also helpful that there's other children who buy into
this as well, so they remind you when you forget.
You know that. There were many times when I'd be
(27:08):
having conversation with the older sibling or the younger sibling
and I would say he and get corrected, Who's he?
Who's that? I don't know who you're talking about? Who
are we talking about? And then I'd say sorry, sorry, they, Sorry,
sorry she?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know, but.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I can see where it can be difficult if you
have people in the process that don't give you grace
and aren't patient, and if you're not patient with yourself.
And we were patient with each other, and so yeah,
it wasn't I think because and I'll go into my
(27:47):
past a little bit. My first marriage was to a
person who was actually gay but didn't know it and
didn't allow themselves to be that and viewed that as wrong,
and so they were having a fight with themselves to
not be that and were trying to be something that
(28:10):
they weren't, so they weren't living their truth, and in
not living their truth, they were a horrible, awful husband.
And it was a horrible, awful marriage that didn't even
last a full year. Living through that at the age
of twenty, because I was only twenty when I married
that person, taught me you can't not be true to yourself,
(28:33):
can't pretend to be something that you're not. So I
never wanted anyone that I loved to be unhappy. I
never wanted anyone that I loved to not be able
to be who they are. So if I saw that
someone might be different from everybody else, I always wanted
them to know you can be who you are around me.
(28:54):
Don't feel like you have to pretend. Don't introduce your
girlfriend or your boyfriend as your cousin. Tell me who
they are, It's okay. So it was more important to
me for Endy to live her truth than for somebody
else to be comfortable.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So how would you say You've been surprised? Maybe by
how your relationship with Indy has evolved throughout the transition
up until now.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
The biggest surprise. Honestly is I started off being a
parent with being a parent to my eldest, my son.
Very shortly thereafter Endi came Andy and Forrest are only
nineteen months apart, and so then I thought I was
the mom of two sons, and then I became the
(29:46):
mom to a daughter. My youngest Becca is also a daughter,
and there were a lot of I guess mother daughter
expectations that I I didn't place them on Becca because
she was too young for me to do that. She's
only eighteen now, but I expected those things to exist
(30:12):
with she and I, and we do have a mother
daughter relationship, but there were just certain things that I
just assumed, well, this will be like it was with
me and my mom. And even before Endy came out,
I had that relationship with Andy and not with Becca.
(30:33):
So when she eventually came out, it was sort of
like you were the daughter all along. And that was
not to negate that I have a relationship with Becca
and I love Beca and I love Beca as my
youngest daughter. But if I compare Lisa and Carol and
(30:57):
what that relationship was like, the Endi Lisa relationship is
closest to that, and the Beca Lisa relationship is a
completely different mother daughter relationship, just a special but just
very different. And that's what was surprising, the assumption that
that would exist solely because each of us were classified
(31:20):
at birth as female. And it doesn't work that way.
It's the personality and it's not really tied to the
gender itself.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Can you say more about like some of the uniqueness
of that relationship. So what kinds of things maybe were
you expecting to have and do with Becca that you
ended up then having with Indy.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Uh, crafting. I thought that I'd be teaching her how
to crochet or knit. She tried, but it wasn't really
for her. That's not her thing. And it is with
Endy and Endi embroiders and does a little bit of sewing,
which I don't do it all. So we have that
(32:02):
in common. All of us have a bit of a
thing with fragrance, but Beca and I are more into
it than Endy and I. And when it comes to cooking,
we all cook, but there's a different curiosity that Endy
has that Betha doesn't have. Becca wants to learn how
(32:25):
to do it so she can prepare it for herself
whenever she wants, and Endy wants to learn how to
do it because she wants to be able to carry
on to traditions, and that could just be age. One
is twenty seven and one is eighteen, so Endy thinks
of it as carrying on the lineage of the family,
(32:45):
where Becca doesn't look at it that way. But again,
she's eighteen, so that could change.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Are any of your children interested in entrepreneurship and following
in your footsteps in that way?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Becca? For sure, she looks at it now from the
perspective of, you know, doing hair, doing nails, doing lashes,
always being able to find her own money and not
being tied to a job. And Andy is artistic and
wants to be able to pursue their art, but doesn't
(33:15):
want to pursue their art for the sake of money,
so she will always have like another job to pay
the bills, but does her art. And then Forrest, the oldest.
He is not really an entrepreneur, but also not the
(33:35):
traditional employee either, so he's more like the freelance guy
a bit like his dad.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. So
as a mother, Lisa, how would you maybe share the
importance of talking to other mothers, other parents about the
importance of allyship to the trans community. It sounds like
(34:04):
you had a very long history I think of being
like an ally and being very open to people who
identify in different ways. But what kinds of things would
you say to other people who maybe are new to
this or still have some resistance.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
It's very important that you open up your circle to
include people that are going through what you're going through
and understand it. Because the most important thing for me,
the way that I look at it, I go back
to that first marriage and how unhappy that person was,
(34:40):
how miserable and lost, and just not wanting anyone to
live that way, and really try to open up your
mind to understand that it isn't choice in the way
that you think that somebody can choose one way or
the other. It is who they are. And you know,
(35:04):
when I think about envy from diapers, we just knew
something was different. We didn't know what it was, and
like I said, because we didn't know about trans and
non binary and didn't have that language, then we just said, well,
maybe he's gay, But there's so much more than that.
(35:25):
You know, she's never been been tested to see if
she's on the spectrum, and sometimes we think that could
be a thing. Also, I think there's a lot of
us out there that are undiagnosed. I wouldn't be surprised
if I'm on the spectrum. I have a thing with
fragrance that is not natural, can be very ocd about
certain things. I don't like to touch paper clips, I
(35:48):
have a thing with textures. I'm sure that there's something,
but for the most part, I could function and be normal,
so you know, it doesn't go diagnosed. We have to
look at these things as not failures on our part
or something that we didn't do as parents, something that
we miss, something that's wrong with our children, and just
(36:09):
understand that it's differences and we can't all be identical,
and it's okay to be different, and it's okay to
allow this person that came from you to be different.
There's a piece called On Children by Khalil Jabrod that
is phenomenal and it was something that I heard long
(36:32):
before I became a parent. I didn't become a parent
till I was thirty three, and I read On Children
when I was about eighteen or nineteen, and he says,
your children are not your children. They are the sons
and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you,
but they are not from you, and though they are
(36:52):
with you, they belong not to you. There's more to
it but those words. I'm so grateful that they came
into my life before I was a parent, and it's
how I tried to operate as a parent. They come
through me, but they are not from me, and I'm
here to aid their development, not completely orchestrated.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Which I think is an important distinction. Right, Even as
you talked earlier about like these expectations and ideas about
that we have about who our children will be and
what our relationship will look a lot it is based
on this idea that like we can predetermine some of
that and we cannot.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, we can't. We can't.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah. So, knowing what you know now, what kinds of
things would you share for other parents about having important
conversations even when kids are young about identity. It sounds
like you and your husband, you know, talk with her
very early on, like hey, if this is your reality,
like we're totally fine. What kinds of things would you
say for other parents to keep in mind about identity conversations.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's important to be mindful of your language. You know,
children will grab toys for so many different reasons. A
boy doesn't grab a truck because they were a boy.
They just grab a truck because maybe nobody else bought
anything other than trucks. So maybe if you have a daughter,
(38:20):
maybe you buy her a truck and not just buy
her dolls or vice versa, just to see what happens
and not take something away because well that's too girly.
You can't really indoctrinate them in that way. They're going
to go for what they want. And Dy growing up,
(38:44):
did have more trucks around her than she did dolls,
but she gravitated to legos and building and drawing and coloring,
which was different from four. Her older brother Forrest wasn't
interested in that, and then beca coming into the mix
(39:06):
with these two older brothers. She did everything. She liked
her dolls. But Becca liked her dolls because she was
in charge. They had to sit and listen to her,
and she gave them lessons and did school and she
was the teacher. So it was her way of like
being a boss and being assertive. The dolls have to
(39:27):
listen to me and becha. Mostly liked to play with
food and pretend to cook, and she loved to go shopping.
She loved cash register, she loved calculators. I think you
let them play and you see where they go and
what they're drawn to, and just let it happen and
(39:48):
not try to guide them because this is right and
this is wrong, or this is what girls do and
this is what boys do. And sometimes that can be
hard for people. And I think if you think about
it from any place in your life where you were judged,
So if you are a black or brown person who's
(40:09):
experienced racism and know what it's like to be excluded
from things because you're black or brown, think of that
and how limiting that was on you and all the
things that you didn't do because you weren't allowed to
It wasn't open to you. Nobody told you that black
people did that too. Women who don't get to do
(40:30):
certain things because they're women and men are encouraged to
do them. You know, now when we look at sports,
we see so many more young women being athletes because
it's been okay to do it. The WNBA has been
around long enough that there are two generations of young
(40:52):
girls seeing that it's okay to be a ballplayer and
going for it when we're a normal size. There's things
that fat people can't do, and there's things that only
skinny people can do. So when you think of those
barriers that maybe got put in your way, try not
to put those barriers in your children's way because you
(41:14):
think boys do this and girls do that. Just let
them be people.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Were there other resources that you found helpful that you
might want to offer to others, So you've already mentioned
khalil Ja Brown's other other podcasts or magazines or documentaries
or things that you've read that would be good for people.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I think a lot of what my husband and I
learned we learned being the parents of our eldest child,
who is dyslexic and has add being D's parents, even
though Envy wasn't diagnosed with something specific, was always different
(41:53):
and we always handled her a certain way because she
was different. And then being in therapy with our youngest
with Becca, who has ADHD, there's a lot of things
that we've learned about parenting and parenting differently, especially with
the younger one, which the other two benefited from because
(42:16):
when she was born, they were nine and ten, so
by the time she was in therapy, they were in
high school and getting ready to leave middle school. So
learning how to have a conversation with the child and
not just issue edicts because I was raised on why
(42:38):
do I have to do this? Because I said, so,
that's how I was raised, and I did the same thing,
and that worked with the first two, didn't work so
well with the third. So by the time we had
our third child, like, parenting had to get a little
bit different. So specific books. I wish I could say, oh,
(43:00):
this was great and that was great, but I don't
have anything that comes to mind. Well, no one thing
that does come to mind. And it's gonna sound really wild.
But Goldie Hawn, who a lot of people don't know
because they're not as old as I am, but google her.
She's Kate Hudson's mom. She was dyslexic and likely had
(43:21):
other undiagnosed learning difficulties, and her autobiography is super interesting,
or was to me being the parent of someone who
was dyslexic, it was really interesting hearing her tell what
it was like to grow up with her brain not
working like everybody else's and then there was a series
(43:44):
that I believe was on TLC about a trans child
named Jazz, and I can't think of what the name
of the show was. But my husband, of all people,
because he does not watch shows like that, ended up
watching that show and found it really interesting watching Jazz
(44:06):
initially live as female and then eventually transitioned during the show.
But watching that was our first exposure to, oh, there's
a lot of kids that are going through this, and
this is what it can look like, and this is
what parents deal with and it was really interesting for us.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Thank you so much for offering those So Lisa, as
someone who has been in business and has been responsible
for managing teams, I wonder if there's anything you can
share for other entrepreneurs or business owners about like how
to support someone on your team who may be transitioning.
Is there anything that comes to mind for you?
Speaker 2 (44:45):
There one thing that I think goes a long way,
and some companies do this on your emails. You identify
who you are so you know it'll say Lisa M. Price,
founder Carol's daughter. She her. A lot of us may
(45:06):
think I don't have to declare my pronouns because it's
obvious I'm not trans, so why do I have to
identify who I am? And the reason that you have
to do that is because you have that luxury of
everybody knows who you are and what you are. So
(45:26):
you declaring it and making it clear just in case
there's any ambiguity, allows for the person who might be
afraid to declare who they are the freedom to say it.
Because you saying it, you've made it okay. So that
was something that was a part of the corporate structure
(45:51):
where my company sits, so that didn't have to be
an initiative that was discussed. But as a small business person,
you are your corporate structure, so that can definitely be
a first step no matter what is to declare add
your chosen pronouns to your email sign off so it's
(46:12):
not just your title, and it makes people see, oh,
it's okay for me to be who I am. If
you have the ability to make your bathrooms gender neutral,
if you're building an office, I think a lot of
people now when they build office space, they don't build
(46:32):
male and female restrooms. They just build restrooms and make
each stall private so that no matter what's going on,
you're in there. By yourself. So that's something that you
can do now if you inherit a space that's already
set up a certain way. You know, the only thing
that you can do is offer, you know, accommodations to
(46:53):
someone if you become aware that they need them. But
it's having a conversation. It's asking that person permission to
have the conversation. Do I have permission to ask you questions?
There are things that I would like to understand about
how I can better support you all of that.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Thank you for then. I think that's a great place
for people to start. Our producers did look up the
name of that show. The name of the show was
called I Am Jazz.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yes, yes, yes, that was it.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Yes, yes, Lisa, this has been so wonderful. I really
enjoyed talking with you. Let us know where we can
stay connected with you. What is your website as well
as any social media channels you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
The website for Carol's Daughter is Carol's Daughter dot com.
We also have a store on Amazon and Carol's Daughter
is the Instagram handle for the brand, as well as
the TikTok and the Facebook. I am Lesaprise is who
I am on Instagram. And on TikTok perfect.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
We'll be sure to include those in the show notes.
Thank you so much, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Thank you. This was great. I loved having this conversation.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
I'm so glad Lisa was able to join us for
this conversation. Her openness and love remind us of the
strength and vulnerability and the power of affirming every child's truth.
We're very grateful for her voice, her journey in the
space she's helping create for acceptance and growth. To learn
more about Lisa and Carrol's daughter, be sure to visit
(48:32):
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
session four one four, and don't forget to text this
episode to two of your girls right now and tell
them to check it out. Did you know that you
can leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions
for the podcast. If you have a movie or a
book you'd like us to review, or even have thoughts
around people you'd like to hear on the podcast, drop
(48:53):
us a voice message at memo dot fm slash Therapy
for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
You just might f on the podcast if you're looking
for a therapist in your area. Visit our therapist directory
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode
was produced by Alice Ellis, Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing
(49:14):
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing
this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
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Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.