June 11, 2025 • 36 mins
This week we’re joined by Mary Frances Phillips, a scholar-activist, public intellectual, and Associate Professor of African American Studies at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. Her interdisciplinary research agenda focuses on race and gender in post-1945 social movements and the carceral state. Her scholarly interests include the Modern Black Freedom Struggle, Black Feminism, and Black Power Studies.
Her first book Black Panther Woman chronicles the life and spiritual practices of Ericka Huggins, a founding member of the Black Panther Party and the first woman to hold a leadership role within the movement. Unpacking her unlawful arrest, latent queerness, and journey from resistance warrior to revolutionary; Dr. Phillips helps close the gap on how some of the movement philosophy of the past has made its way into the current day.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four one five of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after worrdy from our sponsors. Today is a very
special episode in honor of pride Mouth. We're joined by
(01:18):
Mary Francis Phillips, a scholar, activist, public intellectual, and Associate
Professor of African American Studies at the University of Illinois
Urbana Champaign. Her interdisciplinary research agenda focuses on race and
gender in post nineteen forty five social movements and the
carceral state. Her scholarly interests include the modern Black freedom struggle,
(01:40):
black feminism, and black power studies. Her first book, Black
Panther Woman, chronicles the life and spiritual practices of Erica Huggins,
a founding member of the Black Panther Party and the
first woman to hold a leadership role within the movement.
Unpacking her unlawful arrest, latent queerness, and journey from Razil
distance warriors to revolutionary Doctor Phillips helps close the gap
(02:03):
on how some of the movement philosophy of the past
has made its way into the current day. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it
with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
or join us over in our Patreon channel for more
conversation and an ad free version of the podcast. Here's
our conversation, Doctor Phillips. Thank you so much for joining
(02:29):
us today.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Excited is to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So can you get us started by telling us a
little bit about your background as a researcher and a historian.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yes, so, I got my PhD in African American Studies
at Michigan State University. That origin in that program actually
goes back to my undergraduate of days at Michigan State University.
I started in a major in health study and was
taken what was considered a minor, They didn't have majors
(03:05):
and minors, but it was called Black American and Diasporic studying.
It was a specialization, and it allowed me to take
a whole host of courses into disciplinear and courses related
to the African American experience. And I got so passionate
about the African American experience, particularly African American history, that
(03:26):
I had decided to pursue a master's in African American
Studies at Ohio State University and then get my PhD
in African American Studies at Michigan State University. So I
am firmly trained and rooted in African American studies. So
I bring that lens to all of my research work
and you see that all over my new book Black
(03:49):
Panther Women, which is.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
A Black studies project.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Beautiful. So what drew you to studying the women of
the Black Panther and specifically Erica Huggins.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, So the origin story is actually dates back to
those undergraduate years taken African American history courses, and we
would get to the topic of the Black Panther Party
and I would just get so curious. I was just
blown away at the community programs of the Panthers, at
the power of the Panthers, at the work that it
was doing in the communities that I was varted from
(04:21):
my courses that I got really curious about the women.
What were their experiences, what did their everyday lives look like?
And I put that away and I came back to
that when I was doing my PhD. And initially my
dissertation was a dual biography on two women in a
Black Panther Party, and that was Erica Huggins. But then
(04:43):
when I decided to go ahead and do the book,
I just focused on Erica Huggins. Now. I came to
Erica Huggins as a PhD student. When I first started
presenting at conferences National Council for Black Studies, I was
on a panel with all the people that I cited
in my paper, and someone who became my mentor at
(05:05):
the time, lad La blank Ernest, connected.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Me with Ericas.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
She said, you should talk to Erica, you should meet Erica.
I hadn't heard of her and we had that initial conversation,
and I was blown away by her story, by her resilience.
At the time, we didn't talk in that initial conversation
a lot about her her prison resistance. Right, in that
(05:29):
early conversation, I was focused on a different area on
the Panthers. But once I decided to go ahead and
pick up the book, I had since then learned so
much about her prison resistance, so much of how spirituality
became a core a core component of her survival. So
the book is very different than where the dissertation was
(05:51):
and was going. It's on new research on We'll focus
on your methodologies.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
And I'm curious, was there any trepidation for you writing
about a still living person? And was there any pushback
from Erica about having a book written about her?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So she welcomed the idea when I think about so,
let me think a couple of things about in reference
to that question, Erica welcomed the idea. There are some
archival places at universities that have her documents, to have
some of her archives, and that is Yale University. Right.
(06:31):
She's well documented in a Black Panther Party newspaper. However,
there is not one University, a one archive collection that
has all her papers, and so given those archival gaps,
there were times that I had to turn to my
living source for information about her life that only she
(06:55):
would know. And so the book blends my oral history
with her, other people that I've talked to that knew
her lawyers that was critical during her trial, as well
as her prison records, co intelpro papers, photographs, is a
whole host of material that I look at to really
(07:15):
give a critical readering of her life. She welcomed the
idea of me doing biography on her life, as those
interviews in the book is well over a decade of
interviews that I had done with Erica. However, as we
continued with the project, we certainly did have some slight conflict,
(07:38):
and a lot of that resolved around my training as
a professional historian and my interpretation of her life, given
my training, place in her life in a proper historical context,
and at times that began in conflict with how she
(07:59):
saw her life. And so there are moments that we
had to talk through uncomfortable conversations that we had to have.
At times she wanted me to cut certain stories out
of her life.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Some of those stories have been cut.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Some stories haven't been cut, but we've had to have
a lot of conversation and there has been a delicate
balance to really bring her story to life.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
M H. Yeah, So it doesn't sound like it was
any intrepidation really on your part. It was more like,
I want to honor her in this way, right, Like
there is not one place where her story kind of exists,
and so I really wanted this book to be that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Absolutely. There are no biographies on academic, scholarly biographies on
Black Panther women, and so this is the first scholarly biography.
And Erica started at the rank and found level as
MANI members in a Black Panther Party. She ascended to
the Central Committee, one of the top positions that you
(08:58):
could hold in a Black Panther part, already ultimately running
the Black Panther Party's local community school as director. And
her story is important and the spiritual practices that she
put into place, those healing practices to work through the
trauma and the assaults that she was experienced and in
prison is a story orth telling. It's a powerful story
(09:21):
and it gives us a lot of tools that could
help black and brown women as we are navigating the
world that we am today.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I definitely want to hear more about those practices, but
first I want to hear more just about like the
role that women had in the Black Panther Party, because
I feel like for a very long time, like you
only saw the men in the Black Panther Party, as
with a lot in history, right, and so I'm very
excited that we are seeing more and more and getting
more stories about the incredible role and the pivotal role
that women had in the party. Can you say more
(09:53):
about the roles that women tended to have in the
Black Panther Party.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, So the women in the Black Panther Party were
involved in every aspect before we think about the Black
Panther Party. When we think about the community programs of
the Black Panther Party, it was women that were ultimately
running those programs. Women made up very early in the
history of the Black Panther Party. Women made up the
majority of the organization, and that's oftentimes left out of
(10:21):
the public telling of the Black Panther Party. Women were
keeping the organization alive and keeping it thriving, if you will,
when you had the police and the state attack many
members in the Black Panther Party, while women also endured
(10:41):
much of those attacks. Oftentimes they will attack the public
mail faces of the organization. It was women who was
keeping that organization alive and functioning into the closing of
the last community survival program, that is the Black Panther
Party's elementary level institution, the Oakland Community School, And so
(11:03):
women were critical to the everyday operation of the organization,
as many other Black Panther scholars have.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Noted, and that de Villa's what would you say?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Your research has shown you are illuminated about the gender
dynamics of men and women in the party and how
that may be present in some challenges to the work.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
When we think about the gender dynamics of the Black
Panther Party, that varies depending on what period we're talking about,
what year we're talking about, what branch we're talking about,
when we think about what time period we're talking about,
that's a complex question, and oftentimes I hear when the
(11:48):
Panthers are talked about in the public responses is very.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Black and white.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
But it was very complicated, right, and so a lot
of members and the Black Panther Party lived together and
they brought all of that right that you bring living
together as they coexisted, and they work through their conflicts
(12:14):
as anyone else would do. You had some people that
may have been on vocal, others who were not.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
You had Huey P.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Newton. You know, when we think about the moment of
the women's liberation period, who was writing a public letter
write in support of the women's liberation movement and the
gay liberation movement. And so the Panthers were in conversation
with the when you put it in a proper context,
(12:44):
with the when we think of the feminist movement, when
we think of women's liberation, when we think of from
coalitions with progressive organizations, and so they were having those
internal conversations and internal debates, and we actually see this
charted this history and the Black Panther Party newspaper. You
see these conversations women really being active as first vocal
(13:07):
about talking about perhaps the sexism that may have been
in their chapters or mithogyny. But this looked different depending
on when and where we're talking about it, what time periods.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
More from our conversation after the break, can you say more,
Doctor Phillis about the relationship between the women of the
Black Panther Party and Black feminist thought and theory that
was being developed at that time.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, so women in the Black Panther Party were in conversation.
I'm thinking about the Black Panther Party newspaper, and I'm
thinking about an interview that the Panthers had did with
various organizers and the Women's Liberation Movement, various organizers and
many Black feminists organizations. Per Se, when we think about
(14:04):
women that were in the Panthers, they may not have
agreed completely right in some regards. Some women with some
of the leaders in the Black feminist movement. However, they
were always in conversation, so some had kind of, you know,
there were agreements, and in others they talked about their differences.
(14:24):
But fundamentally, when we think about rights, when we think
about equality, when we think about justice, when we think
about having the ability to make a choice and have
an autonomy over our bodies, there is agreement, right, and
so the fundamental ideas around Black feminist thoughts, many women
(14:46):
in a Black Panther Party also held tight in those
principles of ideas as well.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So, doctor Hillers, You've talked about the spiritual practices, and
it sounds like some emotional health practices that Erica developed
while she was in prison that you feel like we're
very helpful for her and you feel like there is
some extrapolation we can do for today's time. Can you
talk more about some of those practices in what you saw?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, So, Erica was incarcerated for a crime she didn't commit.
She was incarcerated for two years from nineteen sixty nine
to nineteen seventy one. During that time, she endured horrendous
prison violence. So the book helps us look at not
just what Black Panther party activism among women look like
(15:29):
on the streets of Connecticut and Oakland, California, but also
what did that look.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Like behind bars?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Right, looking at that extension and how that work extended
behind bars, and when Erica was placed in isolation and
medical isolation, she was segregated. Her and the rest of
the Panthers that were incarcerated were the first political prisoners
that prison. Niatic prisoner is what I refer to it
in the book as the genet your correctional institution today.
(16:00):
They were the first political prisoners that had ever been
at that prison, and the state didn't know what to
do with them, and so they separated them out of
fear that they would incite rebellion and a riot. However,
many women in a general population still communicating with them,
and so one of the first things the panther women
(16:21):
did to support each other was to take care of
each other. Some of the women were pregnant. Even though
food is viewed as punishment in prison, and oftentimes it
wasn't even edible, like you couldn't even eat the food
or what have you. But when it was they would
share the better parts of their filled with other women,
the other panther women who was incarcerated with them, and
(16:44):
so they developed what I called a wellness rhythm to
take care of each other. One of the panther women
had arthritis and she couldn't move because of the cold
cement floors, and so the other panther women would carry her.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Around as needed.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
They truly did take care one another. And one thing
Erica did during that time is she turned to one
of the lawyers on her legal team, Charles Gary, who
was a yogi.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
He was a yoga expert.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
He used to do headstanf before he went into the courtroom.
So she turned to her and said she needed a
book on yoga, and so he gave her one, and
she self taught herself yoga and meditation so that she
could keep herself alive. One of the main motivating factors
and why she did this is because she was a
(17:33):
new mother. Her husband at the time, John Huggins's mother
would bring her daughter May to prison on a Saturday
for a hour to visit Erica, and Erica wanted her
daughter to see her well, healthy, fully present. She didn't
want her seeing her sad and wilter and sick. Teaching
(17:57):
herself meditation and yoyoga was critical and allowed her to
be fully present for those Saturday jasus for her daughter.
That was destroy for her motivation, and she continued with that,
and part of that was being able to take time
to do her own reflection, her own healing from the
(18:18):
inside out. She did her yoga when time permitted, yoga meditation,
oftentimes not getting more than thirty minutes because we are
in prison and time is not her own. And then
when she was moved to the general population, she knew
that she needed the larger community to help sustain her
(18:38):
and so she built a women's centered community organization. And
I'll talk about in the book called the Sister Love Collective,
and they developed a host of resources and support pieces
that were part of the program or a part of
the collective to help eat one another. So really addressed
their social, medical, psychological needs for one another. And that
(19:03):
includes starting a hair salon that includes refashion and the
prison uniforms, that include starting a women's bell fund. So
all of this with very little resources, utilizing networks, creating
networks right in These are all forms of wellness as
I define the spiritual wellness initiatives and programs, and these
(19:23):
are activities to integrate the mind, the body, and the soul.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
What pieces of that did she continue kind of after
she was released, doctor Phillips, So I would imagine that
some of this men found its way into the curriculum
and the centers and things. Can you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yes? Yes, So when she got her freedom and got
out of prison, she went right back to work with
the Black Panther Party. One thing that she did she
started to become a teacher at the school first and
then initially most director of the Panthers ocaland Community School,
and she brought the practice of yoga and meditation to
(20:01):
the young elementary school students in the school, when a
student was disruptive or maybe messing with the other kids
that what have you, she would have that student go
do yoga to refocus their energies.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
There was a moment in the.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
School where the whole school meditated to really be present
with your innate greatness, as she described it. Yoga and
meditation were these practices that were central that she brought
to students. She also brought in yogi experts that would
come in and.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Work with the students as well.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That became really important. One thing we learned from the
work of Erica and others is that given the state
violence that the Panthers often experienced, there was a gap
and there was a need for spirituality in the organization.
And she helped feel that gap where we think about
(20:57):
organizationally with the Panthers.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Because something knows you right about doctor Phillis is Erica's queerness.
And I wonder, how do you feel like her, like
just identity and her role as a queer woman in
the Black Panther Party. How do you feel like that
expanded the party's ideas you talked about like feeling like
they you know, oftimes we're supporting the gay rights movements
and things like that. How do you feel like her
(21:20):
presence really helped to expand their thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Well, you know, to panthers, and I've heard many panthers
say this, They believed they were going to die. Erica
described her time in the Panthers as living.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
In the war.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
And so this is during the time of the free
love movement. And so through Erica's story we learn that
many Panthers loved who they loved unapologetically. So love when
we think about pleasure, and we think about what is
their pleasure in the struggle, and that is that idea
(21:57):
to love who you want to love on apology jetically
And so we see her embracing all of who she
was right she in a book I talk about her
coming to terms with her queer identity. It wasn't accepted
in the church that she went to, but over time,
through going to her aunt and talking things out with
(22:19):
her slowly accepting I love freely and it's not about
if you are particular.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Gender or not.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Right, love is love is love. And so when you
think about it in that particular context, particularly with the
war that was placed out on the Panthers, and one
thing is really important. I cite this scholarship in my
work when we think about queer futures and we're thinking
about the idea to see the future in the present
(22:49):
in Erica, and when we think about the larger work
on the Panthers, that's one of their visions.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
That's something that you.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Can see in the programs that they were creating in
the way that you know, and particularly in Cherica's life
and how she approached love and her relationships.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, and I wonder, you know, if you had a
chance doctor Phillis's talk with Erica, maybe even other Panthers
that you've been doing your research just about what they
see now and like how the work that they did
maybe have set a blueprint for how we can continue
to resist and continue to organize in today's time.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yes, absolutely, And so what I notice about many moments
today when we think about Black Lives Matter and other movements,
they are studying the work of the Panthers. They are
in conversation with Erica Huggins, they are in conversation with
Antheler Davis, right. They are studying their work and their
activism and using a Fatoshi cour and really thinking about
(23:54):
their critically movements today and how their movements inform how
the past informed the present. And I think also they
are studying a black feminist movement. They have language to
their disposal that was being developed when we think about
earlier movements. They are really developing agendas and principles that
(24:18):
are really aware about intersectionality, that are really engaging women's
issues and the multiplicity that come to them when we
think about race, class, and gender and very nuanced ways
from studying the past. And so I know that Erica
Huggins and many of the other Panthers are celebrating the work,
(24:41):
and like I said, they're constantly engaging with them in
whatever rays they can.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
More from our conversation after the break, So giving them
so much of your research uncovered how spiritual practices and
emotional wellness practices really were a guideline for them, I'm
(25:09):
wondering if there are any new practices that you developed
as you learn more about the things that they were doing.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, thank you for that question. And so for me,
I didn't just want to write about yoga and meditation.
I felt like I needed to put it into practice
so that I can actually feel what.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Erica was experiencing.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
What does it really do inside the body, right, and
it helped me better write the power and the potential
of what yoga meditation can do inside the body.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
I also have a.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Strong network of black women writers other historians who are
also doing this work. The community work and the networking
that is essential to the work of Erica and building
in wellness practic is that helps sustain us as some
of the things that I've been doing as a scholar
(26:07):
as well.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So yeah, so what would you say you were most
surprised by in the research and writing of the book.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Oh, man, that's a really good question. One of the
things that most surprised me is some of the moments
the book really encapsulates or encapsulates, excuse me. It humanizes
Erica right and humanizes the women in the Black Panther Party,
(26:38):
And so the book really showcases all that comes with
our full humanity. And so some of the surprises for
me were moments that I talk about in the book.
For example, what Erica might not have been her best self?
She was young, she was twenty one, right when she
(26:59):
was nineteen twenty twenty one, twenty two, one of the
longest serving women members in a Black Panther Party, when
we think of her activism, and there were times when
she wasn't her best self, and there were times when
she made from choices that I don't know if she
would have made twenty years later. Right, she was under
(27:19):
a lot of pressure when she was one of the
Black Panther Party school.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
On the Central Committee.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
She was going through her own particular kinds of personal
experiences and at times she called harm to other people.
And she's done a lot of restorative justice work around that,
and I've been in a lot of conversations with those
that she harm around that. But some of the things
that I talk about in the book I think was
(27:44):
a bit surprising for me once I learned it, but
I also put it in a proper context to give
you a full picture of everything, and that the kind
of pressure that she was up against as well.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
So those were some.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Of the surprises in the book. That's the first thing
that comes to mind as far as surprises.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, you know, we've kind of talked about how, you know,
the women in the Black Panther Party have been unsung,
but thinks to scholars like you and others are really
highlighting the women. But I think today we do see
women Black women specifically, like at the forefront of a
lot of the liberation movements, right, What do you think
has contributed to that shift?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Black women were always at the forefront of these liberation movements.
I think some of the language around the backbone type
of language I've heard oftentimes people say women were the
backbone of these mo movements. And I really trouble that
type of language because if we study it, even when
we study it deeply, we see that Black women were
always at the center of these movements.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And the way that have been when we think.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
About the public right, guts and historians are really unpacking
all of that, but the way it's been told in
a public view is told through this kind of sexist
leans that women in the back. And so when I
think any movement that I can think of, women have
always been at the front, and I always have been
at the center. And we're critical to the work and
(29:10):
to the activism, to the political organizing.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
And so they've always been there.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You know. I think many of us have been surprised
to learn how holistic the practices that were being used
in the Black Panther Party, like the yoga and meditation
and these different kinds of things. And so it feels like,
even though we have been doing that as a part
of supporting our community for a very long time, the
language of mental health in the black community, it feels
like it's still slower to catch up. Why do you
(29:37):
think that is even though we've been kind of doing
that for so long.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You know, I think it has a lot to deal
with the period of slavery, right as a community, We've
been through a long history of government assault of state
terra on our bodies, on our minds, and and.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
We are still here. We're pushing through.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
And when I think about enslavement of black bodies, I
think about the period of Jim Crow. I think about
in a lot of ways when we think about the
government today and trying to take us back to the
period of Jim Crow. Mental health has been some racist
connotations that's come out of that, and I think it's
(30:26):
been a protective mechanism, right, And you see that kind
of struggle, right, I think mental health has come a
long way. There's been so much activism around mental health.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Even when we think about.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
What activism around black men getting the kind of mental
health that's needed to black women, or when I think
about a larger community in general how far we've come.
But I think it's been a protective mechanism and also
as a community not quite understanding how to talk about
these things. Thanks, right, this fear of being viewed is
(31:03):
something that you're not being able to unpack that and
understand that we live in a world where we are
under assault, and so we need to do that kind
of internal healing work to heal from within when we
think about the multiple ways that we've been attacked. It's
(31:23):
a way to get the support and the help that
we need to live in a society if that has
a history of racism and white supremacy that we're still
living till a day m h.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
You know, doctor Phillips, if it is true that history
repeats itself, I wonder, as a historian, what do you
have to say, any things or just any random thoughts
you have about like the moment in time we find
ourselves in right now.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
You know, when I think about the government and I
think about this intentional way that we are being pushed
back to a bygone day almost with an attempt to
really strip us of our humanity. And we've been through
(32:14):
this before. We've been through moments like this and before.
We are constantly fighting for our humanity right. So I
see a lot of things that has happened that's happening now,
happened before in different periods. If we're studying the period
of enslavement right, if we're studying the civil rights movement right,
(32:37):
fighting for how our humanity has been consistent for us
right and developing tools to keep us alive and to
keep us thriving, to say we matter and we're here,
and to resist this kind of white supremist violence that's
been placed on us and consistently placed on us.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
What are your whole for how people engage with your book,
and what are some of the takeaways you hope that
they leave with.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I hope that readers.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Really see the power in Erica's story. I'm hoping that
the story gives readers a sense of strength, gives a
set of tools to help us think about the political
present and what we need to do to help us
(33:32):
walk the world as full human beings and what that
means for us on the inside, and reignite a deepening
fire to heal ourselves from family trauma, heal ourselves from
state violence, to heal ourselves and to do the work
(33:53):
that we have to do within to understand that we
have power within each and.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Every one of us.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Us Erica tapped into that when she was at the
lowest part of her life.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
The state was trying to kill us, kill her.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
She was incarcerated, she was in prison. She had to
turn outward right to do the Ontono work that was
necessary for her own healing for herself. She didn know
if she would get out of prison, but she knew
that she could not let this prison cure her.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
And so I'm.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Hoping that readers take that energy and take the story
and apply it to their own lives and whatever way
serves them.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So where can we stay connected with you, doctor Phillipson,
So what's your website as well as any social media
handles you'd like to share And where can we grab
a copy of the book?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yes, and so the book is as it's literally everywhere.
It's on Audible, it's at all the bookstores, Barnes and Noble,
It's on the NYU Press website. My website is maryforsus
Phillips dot com. On my website, there's a way to
stay connected with me. And so you could get the
(35:09):
audible version. You could get it from any bookstore. It
is available everywhere at the book beautiful.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today,
doctor Phillips.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Thank you. I'm so glad doctor Phillips was able to
join us with this conversation and share more about her work.
To learn more about doctor Phillips or to grab a
copy of the book, we should have visited the show
notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com says session four
one five, and don't forget to text two of your
(35:42):
girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.
Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail
with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. Do you
have a movie or a book you like us to review,
or have thoughts about a guest you'd like to hear.
Drop us a voice message at Memo dot fm, slash
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your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast.
(36:04):
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit
our therapist directory at Therapy from Blackgirls dot com slash directory.
This episode was produced by Elie Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four one five of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after worrdy from our sponsors. Today is a very
special episode in honor of pride Mouth. We're joined by
(01:18):
Mary Francis Phillips, a scholar, activist, public intellectual, and Associate
Professor of African American Studies at the University of Illinois
Urbana Champaign. Her interdisciplinary research agenda focuses on race and
gender in post nineteen forty five social movements and the
carceral state. Her scholarly interests include the modern Black freedom struggle,
(01:40):
black feminism, and black power studies. Her first book, Black
Panther Woman, chronicles the life and spiritual practices of Erica Huggins,
a founding member of the Black Panther Party and the
first woman to hold a leadership role within the movement.
Unpacking her unlawful arrest, latent queerness, and journey from Razil
distance warriors to revolutionary Doctor Phillips helps close the gap
(02:03):
on how some of the movement philosophy of the past
has made its way into the current day. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it
with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
or join us over in our Patreon channel for more
conversation and an ad free version of the podcast. Here's
our conversation, Doctor Phillips. Thank you so much for joining
(02:29):
us today.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Excited is to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So can you get us started by telling us a
little bit about your background as a researcher and a historian.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yes, so, I got my PhD in African American Studies
at Michigan State University. That origin in that program actually
goes back to my undergraduate of days at Michigan State University.
I started in a major in health study and was
taken what was considered a minor, They didn't have majors
(03:05):
and minors, but it was called Black American and Diasporic studying.
It was a specialization, and it allowed me to take
a whole host of courses into disciplinear and courses related
to the African American experience. And I got so passionate
about the African American experience, particularly African American history, that
(03:26):
I had decided to pursue a master's in African American
Studies at Ohio State University and then get my PhD
in African American Studies at Michigan State University. So I
am firmly trained and rooted in African American studies. So
I bring that lens to all of my research work
and you see that all over my new book Black
(03:49):
Panther Women, which is.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
A Black studies project.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Beautiful. So what drew you to studying the women of
the Black Panther and specifically Erica Huggins.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, So the origin story is actually dates back to
those undergraduate years taken African American history courses, and we
would get to the topic of the Black Panther Party
and I would just get so curious. I was just
blown away at the community programs of the Panthers, at
the power of the Panthers, at the work that it
was doing in the communities that I was varted from
(04:21):
my courses that I got really curious about the women.
What were their experiences, what did their everyday lives look like?
And I put that away and I came back to
that when I was doing my PhD. And initially my
dissertation was a dual biography on two women in a
Black Panther Party, and that was Erica Huggins. But then
(04:43):
when I decided to go ahead and do the book,
I just focused on Erica Huggins. Now. I came to
Erica Huggins as a PhD student. When I first started
presenting at conferences National Council for Black Studies, I was
on a panel with all the people that I cited
in my paper, and someone who became my mentor at
(05:05):
the time, lad La blank Ernest, connected.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Me with Ericas.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
She said, you should talk to Erica, you should meet Erica.
I hadn't heard of her and we had that initial conversation,
and I was blown away by her story, by her resilience.
At the time, we didn't talk in that initial conversation
a lot about her her prison resistance. Right, in that
(05:29):
early conversation, I was focused on a different area on
the Panthers. But once I decided to go ahead and
pick up the book, I had since then learned so
much about her prison resistance, so much of how spirituality
became a core a core component of her survival. So
the book is very different than where the dissertation was
(05:51):
and was going. It's on new research on We'll focus
on your methodologies.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
And I'm curious, was there any trepidation for you writing
about a still living person? And was there any pushback
from Erica about having a book written about her?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So she welcomed the idea when I think about so,
let me think a couple of things about in reference
to that question, Erica welcomed the idea. There are some
archival places at universities that have her documents, to have
some of her archives, and that is Yale University. Right.
(06:31):
She's well documented in a Black Panther Party newspaper. However,
there is not one University, a one archive collection that
has all her papers, and so given those archival gaps,
there were times that I had to turn to my
living source for information about her life that only she
(06:55):
would know. And so the book blends my oral history
with her, other people that I've talked to that knew
her lawyers that was critical during her trial, as well
as her prison records, co intelpro papers, photographs, is a
whole host of material that I look at to really
(07:15):
give a critical readering of her life. She welcomed the
idea of me doing biography on her life, as those
interviews in the book is well over a decade of
interviews that I had done with Erica. However, as we
continued with the project, we certainly did have some slight conflict,
(07:38):
and a lot of that resolved around my training as
a professional historian and my interpretation of her life, given
my training, place in her life in a proper historical context,
and at times that began in conflict with how she
(07:59):
saw her life. And so there are moments that we
had to talk through uncomfortable conversations that we had to have.
At times she wanted me to cut certain stories out
of her life.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Some of those stories have been cut.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Some stories haven't been cut, but we've had to have
a lot of conversation and there has been a delicate
balance to really bring her story to life.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
M H. Yeah, So it doesn't sound like it was
any intrepidation really on your part. It was more like,
I want to honor her in this way, right, Like
there is not one place where her story kind of exists,
and so I really wanted this book to be that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Absolutely. There are no biographies on academic, scholarly biographies on
Black Panther women, and so this is the first scholarly biography.
And Erica started at the rank and found level as
MANI members in a Black Panther Party. She ascended to
the Central Committee, one of the top positions that you
(08:58):
could hold in a Black Panther part, already ultimately running
the Black Panther Party's local community school as director. And
her story is important and the spiritual practices that she
put into place, those healing practices to work through the
trauma and the assaults that she was experienced and in
prison is a story orth telling. It's a powerful story
(09:21):
and it gives us a lot of tools that could
help black and brown women as we are navigating the
world that we am today.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I definitely want to hear more about those practices, but
first I want to hear more just about like the
role that women had in the Black Panther Party, because
I feel like for a very long time, like you
only saw the men in the Black Panther Party, as
with a lot in history, right, and so I'm very
excited that we are seeing more and more and getting
more stories about the incredible role and the pivotal role
that women had in the party. Can you say more
(09:53):
about the roles that women tended to have in the
Black Panther Party.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, So the women in the Black Panther Party were
involved in every aspect before we think about the Black
Panther Party. When we think about the community programs of
the Black Panther Party, it was women that were ultimately
running those programs. Women made up very early in the
history of the Black Panther Party. Women made up the
majority of the organization, and that's oftentimes left out of
(10:21):
the public telling of the Black Panther Party. Women were
keeping the organization alive and keeping it thriving, if you will,
when you had the police and the state attack many
members in the Black Panther Party, while women also endured
(10:41):
much of those attacks. Oftentimes they will attack the public
mail faces of the organization. It was women who was
keeping that organization alive and functioning into the closing of
the last community survival program, that is the Black Panther
Party's elementary level institution, the Oakland Community School, And so
(11:03):
women were critical to the everyday operation of the organization,
as many other Black Panther scholars have.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Noted, and that de Villa's what would you say?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Your research has shown you are illuminated about the gender
dynamics of men and women in the party and how
that may be present in some challenges to the work.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
When we think about the gender dynamics of the Black
Panther Party, that varies depending on what period we're talking about,
what year we're talking about, what branch we're talking about,
when we think about what time period we're talking about,
that's a complex question, and oftentimes I hear when the
(11:48):
Panthers are talked about in the public responses is very.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Black and white.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
But it was very complicated, right, and so a lot
of members and the Black Panther Party lived together and
they brought all of that right that you bring living
together as they coexisted, and they work through their conflicts
(12:14):
as anyone else would do. You had some people that
may have been on vocal, others who were not.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
You had Huey P.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Newton. You know, when we think about the moment of
the women's liberation period, who was writing a public letter
write in support of the women's liberation movement and the
gay liberation movement. And so the Panthers were in conversation
with the when you put it in a proper context,
(12:44):
with the when we think of the feminist movement, when
we think of women's liberation, when we think of from
coalitions with progressive organizations, and so they were having those
internal conversations and internal debates, and we actually see this
charted this history and the Black Panther Party newspaper. You
see these conversations women really being active as first vocal
(13:07):
about talking about perhaps the sexism that may have been
in their chapters or mithogyny. But this looked different depending
on when and where we're talking about it, what time periods.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
More from our conversation after the break, can you say more,
Doctor Phillis about the relationship between the women of the
Black Panther Party and Black feminist thought and theory that
was being developed at that time.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, so women in the Black Panther Party were in conversation.
I'm thinking about the Black Panther Party newspaper, and I'm
thinking about an interview that the Panthers had did with
various organizers and the Women's Liberation Movement, various organizers and
many Black feminists organizations. Per Se, when we think about
(14:04):
women that were in the Panthers, they may not have
agreed completely right in some regards. Some women with some
of the leaders in the Black feminist movement. However, they
were always in conversation, so some had kind of, you know,
there were agreements, and in others they talked about their differences.
(14:24):
But fundamentally, when we think about rights, when we think
about equality, when we think about justice, when we think
about having the ability to make a choice and have
an autonomy over our bodies, there is agreement, right, and
so the fundamental ideas around Black feminist thoughts, many women
(14:46):
in a Black Panther Party also held tight in those
principles of ideas as well.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So, doctor Hillers, You've talked about the spiritual practices, and
it sounds like some emotional health practices that Erica developed
while she was in prison that you feel like we're
very helpful for her and you feel like there is
some extrapolation we can do for today's time. Can you
talk more about some of those practices in what you saw?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, So, Erica was incarcerated for a crime she didn't commit.
She was incarcerated for two years from nineteen sixty nine
to nineteen seventy one. During that time, she endured horrendous
prison violence. So the book helps us look at not
just what Black Panther party activism among women look like
(15:29):
on the streets of Connecticut and Oakland, California, but also
what did that look.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Like behind bars?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Right, looking at that extension and how that work extended
behind bars, and when Erica was placed in isolation and
medical isolation, she was segregated. Her and the rest of
the Panthers that were incarcerated were the first political prisoners
that prison. Niatic prisoner is what I refer to it
in the book as the genet your correctional institution today.
(16:00):
They were the first political prisoners that had ever been
at that prison, and the state didn't know what to
do with them, and so they separated them out of
fear that they would incite rebellion and a riot. However,
many women in a general population still communicating with them,
and so one of the first things the panther women
(16:21):
did to support each other was to take care of
each other. Some of the women were pregnant. Even though
food is viewed as punishment in prison, and oftentimes it
wasn't even edible, like you couldn't even eat the food
or what have you. But when it was they would
share the better parts of their filled with other women,
the other panther women who was incarcerated with them, and
(16:44):
so they developed what I called a wellness rhythm to
take care of each other. One of the panther women
had arthritis and she couldn't move because of the cold
cement floors, and so the other panther women would carry her.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Around as needed.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
They truly did take care one another. And one thing
Erica did during that time is she turned to one
of the lawyers on her legal team, Charles Gary, who
was a yogi.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
He was a yoga expert.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
He used to do headstanf before he went into the courtroom.
So she turned to her and said she needed a
book on yoga, and so he gave her one, and
she self taught herself yoga and meditation so that she
could keep herself alive. One of the main motivating factors
and why she did this is because she was a
(17:33):
new mother. Her husband at the time, John Huggins's mother
would bring her daughter May to prison on a Saturday
for a hour to visit Erica, and Erica wanted her
daughter to see her well, healthy, fully present. She didn't
want her seeing her sad and wilter and sick. Teaching
(17:57):
herself meditation and yoyoga was critical and allowed her to
be fully present for those Saturday jasus for her daughter.
That was destroy for her motivation, and she continued with that,
and part of that was being able to take time
to do her own reflection, her own healing from the
(18:18):
inside out. She did her yoga when time permitted, yoga meditation,
oftentimes not getting more than thirty minutes because we are
in prison and time is not her own. And then
when she was moved to the general population, she knew
that she needed the larger community to help sustain her
(18:38):
and so she built a women's centered community organization. And
I'll talk about in the book called the Sister Love Collective,
and they developed a host of resources and support pieces
that were part of the program or a part of
the collective to help eat one another. So really addressed
their social, medical, psychological needs for one another. And that
(19:03):
includes starting a hair salon that includes refashion and the
prison uniforms, that include starting a women's bell fund. So
all of this with very little resources, utilizing networks, creating
networks right in These are all forms of wellness as
I define the spiritual wellness initiatives and programs, and these
(19:23):
are activities to integrate the mind, the body, and the soul.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
What pieces of that did she continue kind of after
she was released, doctor Phillips, So I would imagine that
some of this men found its way into the curriculum
and the centers and things. Can you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yes? Yes, So when she got her freedom and got
out of prison, she went right back to work with
the Black Panther Party. One thing that she did she
started to become a teacher at the school first and
then initially most director of the Panthers ocaland Community School,
and she brought the practice of yoga and meditation to
(20:01):
the young elementary school students in the school, when a
student was disruptive or maybe messing with the other kids
that what have you, she would have that student go
do yoga to refocus their energies.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
There was a moment in the.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
School where the whole school meditated to really be present
with your innate greatness, as she described it. Yoga and
meditation were these practices that were central that she brought
to students. She also brought in yogi experts that would
come in and.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Work with the students as well.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That became really important. One thing we learned from the
work of Erica and others is that given the state
violence that the Panthers often experienced, there was a gap
and there was a need for spirituality in the organization.
And she helped feel that gap where we think about
(20:57):
organizationally with the Panthers.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Because something knows you right about doctor Phillis is Erica's queerness.
And I wonder, how do you feel like her, like
just identity and her role as a queer woman in
the Black Panther Party. How do you feel like that
expanded the party's ideas you talked about like feeling like
they you know, oftimes we're supporting the gay rights movements
and things like that. How do you feel like her
(21:20):
presence really helped to expand their thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Well, you know, to panthers, and I've heard many panthers
say this, They believed they were going to die. Erica
described her time in the Panthers as living.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
In the war.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
And so this is during the time of the free
love movement. And so through Erica's story we learn that
many Panthers loved who they loved unapologetically. So love when
we think about pleasure, and we think about what is
their pleasure in the struggle, and that is that idea
(21:57):
to love who you want to love on apology jetically
And so we see her embracing all of who she
was right she in a book I talk about her
coming to terms with her queer identity. It wasn't accepted
in the church that she went to, but over time,
through going to her aunt and talking things out with
(22:19):
her slowly accepting I love freely and it's not about
if you are particular.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Gender or not.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Right, love is love is love. And so when you
think about it in that particular context, particularly with the
war that was placed out on the Panthers, and one
thing is really important. I cite this scholarship in my
work when we think about queer futures and we're thinking
about the idea to see the future in the present
(22:49):
in Erica, and when we think about the larger work
on the Panthers, that's one of their visions.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
That's something that you.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Can see in the programs that they were creating in
the way that you know, and particularly in Cherica's life
and how she approached love and her relationships.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, and I wonder, you know, if you had a
chance doctor Phillis's talk with Erica, maybe even other Panthers
that you've been doing your research just about what they
see now and like how the work that they did
maybe have set a blueprint for how we can continue
to resist and continue to organize in today's time.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yes, absolutely, And so what I notice about many moments
today when we think about Black Lives Matter and other movements,
they are studying the work of the Panthers. They are
in conversation with Erica Huggins, they are in conversation with
Antheler Davis, right. They are studying their work and their
activism and using a Fatoshi cour and really thinking about
(23:54):
their critically movements today and how their movements inform how
the past informed the present. And I think also they
are studying a black feminist movement. They have language to
their disposal that was being developed when we think about
earlier movements. They are really developing agendas and principles that
(24:18):
are really aware about intersectionality, that are really engaging women's
issues and the multiplicity that come to them when we
think about race, class, and gender and very nuanced ways
from studying the past. And so I know that Erica
Huggins and many of the other Panthers are celebrating the work,
(24:41):
and like I said, they're constantly engaging with them in
whatever rays they can.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
More from our conversation after the break, So giving them
so much of your research uncovered how spiritual practices and
emotional wellness practices really were a guideline for them, I'm
(25:09):
wondering if there are any new practices that you developed
as you learn more about the things that they were doing.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, thank you for that question. And so for me,
I didn't just want to write about yoga and meditation.
I felt like I needed to put it into practice
so that I can actually feel what.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Erica was experiencing.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
What does it really do inside the body, right, and
it helped me better write the power and the potential
of what yoga meditation can do inside the body.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
I also have a.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Strong network of black women writers other historians who are
also doing this work. The community work and the networking
that is essential to the work of Erica and building
in wellness practic is that helps sustain us as some
of the things that I've been doing as a scholar
(26:07):
as well.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So yeah, so what would you say you were most
surprised by in the research and writing of the book.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Oh, man, that's a really good question. One of the
things that most surprised me is some of the moments
the book really encapsulates or encapsulates, excuse me. It humanizes
Erica right and humanizes the women in the Black Panther Party,
(26:38):
And so the book really showcases all that comes with
our full humanity. And so some of the surprises for
me were moments that I talk about in the book.
For example, what Erica might not have been her best self?
She was young, she was twenty one, right when she
(26:59):
was nineteen twenty twenty one, twenty two, one of the
longest serving women members in a Black Panther Party, when
we think of her activism, and there were times when
she wasn't her best self, and there were times when
she made from choices that I don't know if she
would have made twenty years later. Right, she was under
(27:19):
a lot of pressure when she was one of the
Black Panther Party school.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
On the Central Committee.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
She was going through her own particular kinds of personal
experiences and at times she called harm to other people.
And she's done a lot of restorative justice work around that,
and I've been in a lot of conversations with those
that she harm around that. But some of the things
that I talk about in the book I think was
(27:44):
a bit surprising for me once I learned it, but
I also put it in a proper context to give
you a full picture of everything, and that the kind
of pressure that she was up against as well.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
So those were some.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Of the surprises in the book. That's the first thing
that comes to mind as far as surprises.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, you know, we've kind of talked about how, you know,
the women in the Black Panther Party have been unsung,
but thinks to scholars like you and others are really
highlighting the women. But I think today we do see
women Black women specifically, like at the forefront of a
lot of the liberation movements, right, What do you think
has contributed to that shift?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Black women were always at the forefront of these liberation movements.
I think some of the language around the backbone type
of language I've heard oftentimes people say women were the
backbone of these mo movements. And I really trouble that
type of language because if we study it, even when
we study it deeply, we see that Black women were
always at the center of these movements.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And the way that have been when we think.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
About the public right, guts and historians are really unpacking
all of that, but the way it's been told in
a public view is told through this kind of sexist
leans that women in the back. And so when I
think any movement that I can think of, women have
always been at the front, and I always have been
at the center. And we're critical to the work and
(29:10):
to the activism, to the political organizing.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
And so they've always been there.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You know. I think many of us have been surprised
to learn how holistic the practices that were being used
in the Black Panther Party, like the yoga and meditation
and these different kinds of things. And so it feels like,
even though we have been doing that as a part
of supporting our community for a very long time, the
language of mental health in the black community, it feels
like it's still slower to catch up. Why do you
(29:37):
think that is even though we've been kind of doing
that for so long.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You know, I think it has a lot to deal
with the period of slavery, right as a community, We've
been through a long history of government assault of state
terra on our bodies, on our minds, and and.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
We are still here. We're pushing through.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
And when I think about enslavement of black bodies, I
think about the period of Jim Crow. I think about
in a lot of ways when we think about the
government today and trying to take us back to the
period of Jim Crow. Mental health has been some racist
connotations that's come out of that, and I think it's
(30:26):
been a protective mechanism, right, And you see that kind
of struggle, right, I think mental health has come a
long way. There's been so much activism around mental health.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Even when we think about.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
What activism around black men getting the kind of mental
health that's needed to black women, or when I think
about a larger community in general how far we've come.
But I think it's been a protective mechanism and also
as a community not quite understanding how to talk about
these things. Thanks, right, this fear of being viewed is
(31:03):
something that you're not being able to unpack that and
understand that we live in a world where we are
under assault, and so we need to do that kind
of internal healing work to heal from within when we
think about the multiple ways that we've been attacked. It's
(31:23):
a way to get the support and the help that
we need to live in a society if that has
a history of racism and white supremacy that we're still
living till a day m h.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
You know, doctor Phillips, if it is true that history
repeats itself, I wonder, as a historian, what do you
have to say, any things or just any random thoughts
you have about like the moment in time we find
ourselves in right now.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
You know, when I think about the government and I
think about this intentional way that we are being pushed
back to a bygone day almost with an attempt to
really strip us of our humanity. And we've been through
(32:14):
this before. We've been through moments like this and before.
We are constantly fighting for our humanity right. So I
see a lot of things that has happened that's happening now,
happened before in different periods. If we're studying the period
of enslavement right, if we're studying the civil rights movement right,
(32:37):
fighting for how our humanity has been consistent for us
right and developing tools to keep us alive and to
keep us thriving, to say we matter and we're here,
and to resist this kind of white supremist violence that's
been placed on us and consistently placed on us.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
What are your whole for how people engage with your book,
and what are some of the takeaways you hope that
they leave with.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I hope that readers.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Really see the power in Erica's story. I'm hoping that
the story gives readers a sense of strength, gives a
set of tools to help us think about the political
present and what we need to do to help us
(33:32):
walk the world as full human beings and what that
means for us on the inside, and reignite a deepening
fire to heal ourselves from family trauma, heal ourselves from
state violence, to heal ourselves and to do the work
(33:53):
that we have to do within to understand that we
have power within each and.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Every one of us.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Us Erica tapped into that when she was at the
lowest part of her life.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
The state was trying to kill us, kill her.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
She was incarcerated, she was in prison. She had to
turn outward right to do the Ontono work that was
necessary for her own healing for herself. She didn know
if she would get out of prison, but she knew
that she could not let this prison cure her.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
And so I'm.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Hoping that readers take that energy and take the story
and apply it to their own lives and whatever way
serves them.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So where can we stay connected with you, doctor Phillipson,
So what's your website as well as any social media
handles you'd like to share And where can we grab
a copy of the book?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yes, and so the book is as it's literally everywhere.
It's on Audible, it's at all the bookstores, Barnes and Noble,
It's on the NYU Press website. My website is maryforsus
Phillips dot com. On my website, there's a way to
stay connected with me. And so you could get the
(35:09):
audible version. You could get it from any bookstore. It
is available everywhere at the book beautiful.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today,
doctor Phillips.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Thank you. I'm so glad doctor Phillips was able to
join us with this conversation and share more about her work.
To learn more about doctor Phillips or to grab a
copy of the book, we should have visited the show
notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com says session four
one five, and don't forget to text two of your
(35:42):
girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.
Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail
with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. Do you
have a movie or a book you like us to review,
or have thoughts about a guest you'd like to hear.
Drop us a voice message at Memo dot fm, slash
Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on
your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast.
(36:04):
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit
our therapist directory at Therapy from Blackgirls dot com slash directory.
This episode was produced by Elie Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
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