Session 416: Navigating BDSM & Kink As A Black Woman

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

(00:57):
for joining me for session four sixteen of the Black
Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after word
from our sponsors. When it comes to conversations about sexuality,
especially for black women in films, there's often a heavy

(01:20):
weight of stereotypes, silence, and shame. We've been conditioned to
think of our desires as something to hide or fix,
rather than explore and understand. But what if our pleasure,
boundaries and needs could be expressed with clarity, confidence, and care.
This week, we're exploring how BDSM and kink can be
powerful too for reconnecting with desire, agency, and emotional safety.

(01:43):
While these communities are often misunderstood, they emphasize consent, communication,
and trust, values that are essential in any healthy relationship.
I'm so excited to be joined again by doctor Lana Holmes,
a licensed clinical psychologist and somatic practitioner who's specializes in
working with BIPOC and LGBTQ plus clients around identity, sexuality,

(02:06):
and trauma. Our previous conversation in Session two twenty two,
how horror films help us process life was such an
eye opener for me. It gave me so many more
layers to think about when it comes to the horror
genre and how it can help us process trauma layers.
I just didn't know we're there. I'm so happy she's
back with us this week to explore another deeply layered

(02:27):
and often misunderstood topic, BDSM and kink. If something resonates
with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us
on social media using the hashtag tvg and Session, or
join us over in our Patreon community. To talk more
about the episode. You can join us at community dot
therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you

(02:53):
so much for joining me again, doctor Holmes.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for
having me on again.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Absolutely absolutely so you joined us for session two twenty two,
which is one of I feel like I say this
all the time, my favorite episodes, but I feel like
I learned so much and it was like such an
interesting perspective on a conversation. So we talked about like
how you can use horror films to actually process trauma.
So catch us up all what's been going on since
we last chatted.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Oh wow, let's see, still doing clinical practice. Also recently
transitioned into doing continuing education courses that our APA approved.
The inaugural course that actually dealt with the same topic
we're going to focus on today, has to do with
kink and crinical practice. In fact, the full title is
Kink and Clinical Practice one oh one. Just is then

(03:41):
opportunity to help clinicians become better acquainted with the BDSM
and kink populations and how to treat them, especially folks
who may have heard some things out there in media,
but they're like, I have no idea about the nuts
and bolts of what BSM and kink are, and I
want to be more competent in these areas well.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
I feel like you have set us up for a
great conversation today, So let's get started by like a
one oh one, like, what are you talking about when
you refer to BDSM and kink? What are some definitions there?

Speaker 2 (04:13):
So, the best ways I could describe kink is about
like a niche set of sexual practices that are seen
as being unconventional but are deeply rewarding and pleasurable for folks.
And then on the opposite side with like BDSM, it's
an acronym, so for those of us who remember dialectical

(04:33):
behavior therapy, you're gonna love this. The BDSM is an
acronym that stands for bondage and discipline, domination and submission,
and then sadism and masochism. And so these are sexual,
relational and emotional dynamics that have to do with power
exchange and like playing around with power in a way

(04:56):
that can be erotic but also a way that can
be deeply emotionally psychologic, even in some cases depending on preferences,
spiritually satisfying.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Okay, so we are going to dig more into all
of those acronyms as you just shared, but i'd love
to hear from you, like what drew you to exploring
this professionally and why do you think it's important for
black women in films to kind of learn more about this?

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Huh, that's a great question. Professionally, I think part of
the reason that I've felt drawn to this is like
it's a part of my overall ethos of being there
for people that are part of marginalized, depressed, and stigmatized community. Also,
I think if we're thinking more broadly of why any
clinician should care about this is sexuality is such an

(05:41):
integral part of people's overall health and well being, and
by and large, a lot of people can have conflicted
emotions but also a lot of shame about sex in general.
But then especially if you are part of a kind
of subcultural sexual community, then there can be even more
shame and misunderstanding. So we already know from research but

(06:04):
also anecdotal evidence that there are number of people within
BSM and KING communities and when they come into treatment
get misdiagnosed, get judged, get criticized, and so that not
only blocks folks from being able to access them as
a health care that they need, but also it can
lead to more harm, which ethically we are not supposed

(06:25):
to be doing as licensed with health professionals. So for me,
I just wanted to be able to provide a warm,
welcoming place where people could be And I mean usually
when people come into treatment from BSM and king communities,
the focus isn't necessarily always going to be on that,
but people just want to have the assurance that they
could talk about all the different parts of their life

(06:46):
and what's important and meaningful to them, and you're going
to know what they're talking about. They don't have to
educate you on it. But also you're going to be
understanding and inclusive and embracing about it rather than remissaying
or being disgusted. Yeah, but people want to be able
to say, like, I can talk about my depression and
how I like to get banked and you're not going

(07:08):
to bat nigh or I have to hide some part
of it from me. But also people sometimes can come
into treatment because they might be experiencing challenges or even
like coming into this aspect of their selves for the
first time, and they want somebody who's knowledgeable to help
them navigate and process like what it means to be

(07:29):
a part of the king can be as communities from
a psychological perspective, you know, so that's it, and then
when it comes to Black women in fems, it's like,
why is this important for us? And why should we
consider this?

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Is?

Speaker 2 (07:41):
I think for black women and fems, we are often
hamstrung in terms of our sexuality. So we've had to
deal with these racialized stereotypes of our sexuality as being
like hyper sexual, which can then lead to this reaction
is wanting to be as proper and respectable in our

(08:02):
sexuality as possible. So a lot of these reactions have
to do with like how do we defend our felves
rather than like what are our true desires? And I
think with BDSM and kink it offers an opportunity for
folks to be able to tap into like what do
you want and to be explicit about it and to
be intentional about it. But also BSM kink really emphasize clear,

(08:27):
assertive communication boundaries also consent in a way that I
think sometimes in vanilla or you know, basically anything that
outside of like king can BDSM doesn't. And so there
can be enhances level of safety and agency that comes
from exploring your sexuality within the context of BSM and kink.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
So that to Holmes, you mentioned that one of the
reasons someone might go to therapy is to kind of
explore this area of their sexuality. I wonder if you
could talk about how someone might even know that they're
interested in BDSM ar key, we might let me know, like, oh,
this might be something I might be more interested in.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
That's interesting. Yeah, my head is just a wash with
all of these accounts that people said, like this is
how I got an ink laying or new So some
of the media examples that I've encountered, both like looking
at the research, working with people, being with people in
these communities is a lot of media, and it's not
necessarily like sextual or pornographic media. Even examples include people

(09:34):
where they're like, oh, there was a regular mainstream film
that featured a character that was wearing lever or lateech
or who was being restrained, and people were like, oh,
I found that very appealing in a way that was
different than just oh it's cool or it's like aesthetic
with pasing. But they're like, I'm feeling aroused by it,

(09:56):
or I feel like this kind of emotional connection to
it Also I've heard people where they're like, it's been books,
like not only books that are considered to be a
part of the canon of BSM and king history, but
also just books again where there are elements of power
dynamics at play, where people are being restrained, where there's

(10:20):
like these different kinds of really like physical power oriented
dynamics are happening where people realize it. Like, another example
that comes to mind is I've heard at least one
example of somebody's like I loved comic books and being
like Wonder Woman being tied up with her last of Truth,

(10:43):
Like that really was appealing to me and was like
a early kink awakening. And that's really apropos because the
creator is I'm remembering doctor Moulton, who was like also
a ment health professional, like created Wonder Woman as a dominatrix.
That was just an underlying intention like with that character.

(11:03):
So to me, when I heard the example, it's like, Oh,
that's very upper po that's that person just intuitively glommed
on to that.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
So you've already mentioned spanking as like one type of play,
but there are so many different ways to play in
the bdsame kind of community. Can you talk about like
some of those differences and to talk more about like
the sense of playing with power, like what does that
look like in practice?

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, So when I think about kink, there can be
a number of things, like you said, outside of spanking
that people can do. There's things like bloshing, which is
a subset of the like wet and messy fetish where
folks may play with food. Bashing specifically talked about people

(11:47):
engaging in like sexual scenes and play with food being
involved with the broader wet and messy fetish, people may
use like really sticky or viscous things, whether it be
body face pain or gunge, which is basically like mixing
different things to have like a slimy texture and consistency
to put in their bodies or to engage in sexual

(12:09):
play with. So basically, you know, if I were to
explain it in a more comprehensive way of the differences
between like all those these different things, it would be
you know, kink being a matter of any kind of
like obscure or unconventional sexual behaviors and preferences, and a

(12:32):
subset of that would be fetishes where a person can
derive sexual arousal pleasure of stimulations from specific body parts
inanimate objects or situations. So typically the fetish that is
needed for arousal orgasm or pleasure to okur, whereas like kink,
it doesn't absolutely positively have to be there for that.
Some additional kink examples off the top of my head

(12:54):
include exhibitionism or voyeurism, smoking, lay tag, leather feet. And
then when it comes to like power dynamics, so you know,
particularly thinking about domination and submission, a dominant which depending

(13:14):
on your gender, folk make like to go by dominant
domin dom et cetera, or dominatrix that is the person
who is in this position of power, whereas the sub
is the person or to put it a different way,
a dominant is someone who is taking the power, whereas

(13:36):
the submissive or sub is the person that is giving
up their power. But it's something that's done consensually. It's
something that is done with a great level of care
and responsibility. And one of the things that I always
like to specify is that it's a common misunderstanding that like, oh,
dominant can just do whatever they want and like they're

(13:58):
the one that holds all the key, Like, actually, no,
it's the sub because the sub is the person that
can say, yeah, I'm want to continue this, no I
want us to slow down, or no I want us
to stop all together. What basically helps to make this
power dynamic safe is consent and being able to be
very clear and intentional before you even engage in that

(14:20):
kind of dynamic or scene about what you absolutely want
to do, what you don't want to do, what you
may be willing to try under very specific negotiation in terms,
but also being able to figure out how you're going
to communicate when you want to stop, slow down, or continue.

(14:40):
And so that's when safe words or safe phrases or
even safe signals come into play, which are pre negotiated.
There are some general community wide ones that people like using,
with the most famous one I can think of this
like the stop light one where red means stop, yellow
means hey, let's flow down, check in green means let's continue,
do more. This is great. We also people will have

(15:01):
some sensory idiosyncratic for themselves, so usually it's something that
is so kind of jarring that it will immediately make
you pay attention to it, and something like acupocal that
if you're in the middle of sex and somebody says that,
and that's your like queue to stop as a safe bird, Like,
I think that's a pretty good one. Yeah. But also
sometimes if there are acts that people engage in where

(15:26):
they might be nonverbal, like because they have a gag
in their mouth, for example, or maybe they get into
such an altered state of consciousness that it might be
hard for them to verbalize, there could be a pre
negotiated safe signal where they make a certain move or
gesture that indicates like, hey, this is great, let's keep going,
or we need to flow down, or this needs to

(15:46):
stop immediately.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
So you brought up consents several times, and from what
you're describing, it sounds like there is a fair amount
of like talking probably on the front end right before
like a play or a scene. I think is how
you describe, right, Yeah, So can you talk about like
how are you sitting down to have this conversation? Right? Like,
are there some guidelines to follow, like how do you
set up a conversation around kink and medism?

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Oh no, that's a great question. First, there's a number
of different models that people may harken to, So you
know some of the names for these models and their
acronyms that you might see out there like safe stayed in.
Consensual also notes SSC, risk of wear, consensual kink or
RACK personal responsibility informed consensual kink Alto notes prick carring, communication,

(16:35):
consent and caution, the four seas or as I like
to call it, fee to the fourth power, and then
trauma informed consensual kink TICK. So there are little nuances
between them, but some of the common threads is regardless
of the role that you're going to be assuming within
like any aspect of kink or BSM, if you want

(16:56):
to make sure that like when you come and approach
like a potential play a part, whether this is somebody
who're going to be involved in a long time dynamic
with or someone who it's going to be more casual
and short term. Also and pickup play is you come
prepared basically with like, hey, this is what I know,
I like and what I would like to do, either

(17:16):
for this time that we meet or like going into
the future and pre planning. But there's a lot of
upfront discussion about not only what you like, but like
the risks involved, like physically, mentally, emotionally, about also levels
of experience and competence of like, for example, I think

(17:37):
about something like shabari or rope play, is if you
don't know what you're doing, or if you're still really
new and green to that, you have the high potential
of injuring someone. And so it's important not only to
kind of have book knowledge about it, but to be like,
do you have practice, you have experience doing this, because
if you don't, somebody can get physically harmed in a

(17:59):
way that we want to always avoid. And so you know,
there's those things other things that come to mind. Yeah,
of just like making sure too that in addition to
kind of covering like what you like, what you don't like,
the possible risks entailed being able to negotiate like safe
word signals, et cetera. Is you want to also get

(18:22):
a sense of who these people are. And so usually
it's recommended throughout any stage of development a person is
in within BDSM and kink, but especially if you're new
to it, is to really get to take time to
know yourself and to take time to get to know
other people within your local BDSM and kink community. And
so one of the ways that this is typically accomplished

(18:44):
is through munches which are usually informal gatherings that can
happen in like a restaurant or a cafe where folks
are who are involved in like their particular local bda
Semn King community meet each other, get to know each other,
and then it's a nice compliment to like getting to

(19:06):
know people in a dungeon or a play party setting.
So with munches, those are typically like casual affairs where
like people are just wearing the regular clothes, nobody's engaging
in any kind of like sexual romantic activity. But it's
an opportunity for education, for fellowship and also just to

(19:27):
kind of get a sense of who people are, because
all people are fallible, even in a community that is
driven by ethics, as the bism and King communities are.
And so just because somebody comes in and says like, yeah,
I have all this experience and I love doing this
and this is so much fun, doesn't mean that they're
necessarily going to be a ethical face or abiding a

(19:49):
trustworthy person. So that's another aspect too, like you want
to make sure that you're doing due diligence to try
to determine and other ways of figuring that out too,
is kind of of like getting people's advice or recommendations. Also,
people will give references right where It's like, before I
play with you, I want to see if there's other
people who've played with that I could speak with or

(20:12):
get a sense of, like how you are. That way,
I have like another layer of protection before I engage
in a scene or of any form of player or
a dynamic with you.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
More from our conversation after the break. So, doctor Holmes,
Let's say somebody is enjoying our conversation and they think like, oh,
this is something I might be interested in learning more about.
Where would they start? Like would they look for a munch.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
In their area?

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Is there like a website to explore? Like how would
somebody get started with kind of exploring this for themselves?

Speaker 2 (20:52):
There are different points of entry, Like we're really an
a fortunate time where there's so many different access access
points that people can have in terms of information acclamation.
This is my kind of opinion. People don't have to
do this, but I would say definitely start with like
educational material, so books. One of my favorites is Playing

(21:15):
Well with Others, which was written by Wee. Harrington and
Malina Williams now known as Melena williams Hof. There are
also other books like on topping and bottoming and like,
there's a wealth of information out there. Also, there are
a lot of online and in person workshops that people
can attend. There are a number of conventions, including the

(21:35):
Stex Down South Convention, which is based in the metro
Atlanta area and usually happens like around September if I
remember correctly, of every year. So I would say, before
you actually take the step to go like I'm going
to meet people and I'm going to actually engage in
scenes and play or dynamics, is educate yourself more, because
sometimes what can happen is people may just lead with

(21:58):
I really like this, it's rousing and exciting, and I
just want to like jump in rather than going, okay,
well my interest is piqued. But what do I want
to get out of this experience? What about this is
truly appealing to me? Also what do I not like
as well? And also where are the things I'm uncertain
about that whether it's because I don't know if I

(22:20):
really would enjoy it, or I feel like it's too intiminating,
or I lack enough sufficient skills or knowledge to engage
with it successfully. So I would say always start with
education and self reflection first, and then I think the
next step would be and also to that piece, there's

(22:41):
a lot of great like King can be as some
educators available online and in person that you can follow
and look at the ones that stick out to my
mind that are really great, or Marla Rene Stewart, who's
actually one of the co founders or founder if I'm
remembering correctly of the Sex Down Soeulth conference. There's also
Luna Matatas. They're also like Evy Loopine and like a

(23:01):
number of other people who are available with like online
websites but also who do like imperson workshops that like
you can learn from and get like a deeper perspective on.
But after you reach a point where you feel like
you have a good bread rock of knowledge, I think
the next step that you know would be appropriate would
be meeting people. So trying to see through like social media,

(23:26):
if there are local bsemn King communities in your area
that you can pap into and meet people from there. Also,
I think as of this time, fet Life is probably
the most popular online kind of social media website that's
completely dedicated to people who are in the BDSM and

(23:46):
king communities, and so I think those are some like
different tips that people could look at. Also, you could
see if there's like a dungeon in your local community
or area or region. Sometimes dungeons may have certain rules,
the regulations or protocols of like screening people before they
can come in, so be mindful of that. But yeah,

(24:09):
like those are some suggestions that immediately popp to mind
of like what people could do.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Mm hmm. And my understanding is that an important part
of BDS and play is often aftercare. Can you say
more about that in the role that plays in the
playing scene?

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Oh? Yeah, So when you're engaged in the scene, it
is emotionally, psychologically, physically, and again sometimes even spiritually very taxing.
I would kind of equate it to like, let's say
you go on a really long run, is you're at
this heightened level of like stimulation for a prolonged period

(24:45):
of time and then it stops, And so what can
happen is known as drop, whether it's sub drop or
dom drop or scene drop, where people are like I
am on this high and then all of a sudden
it stops, and people after that can sometimes experience distress

(25:05):
or significant exhaustion and fatigue, and in order to make
sure that people aren't just left with this like abrupt
end that can feel negative for people, folks will engage
in like intentional aftercare to make sure that their emotional, psychological, physiological,
and again even spiritual needs or addressed. So aftercare is

(25:27):
usually something that is pre negotiated and planned as a
part of the informed consent process so that people know
what they need and a very comperson in person. So
there's like no global script of what aftercare should look
like for everybody. Some people may find, oh, I really
need food and water. Other people may find I need

(25:48):
somebody to physically be in the room with me and
de brief with me. Other people may be like, hey,
I just need somebody to tell me that I did
a good job and kind of leave me to myself
as I do some deep breathing. Or some people are
like I need to go take a bath, And so
it varies from person to person, which is why again

(26:08):
self reflection is so important for people to really think like, yeah,
if you enter do something like this, what do you
anticipate knowing yourselves maybe some of your needs And it
doesn't have to be perfect and aftercare is something that
can evolve over time. But I think it's important for

(26:28):
people to think critically about, like, yeah, what are my
needs and to not just kind of expect it to
come through autmosis or from other people immediately anticipating what
their needs are.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
So as I'm listening to you talk about this doctor home,
it is striking me that you know, if there is
so much I mean, I guess there is any time
you have sex, right, like an emotional psychological risk, but
it feels like it's heightened in this situation right as
you're talking about like this drop. I wonder if there
are like psychological risks or like psychological factors that you
should kind of be aware of for yourself that might

(27:00):
like this might not be a good time to explore
medias in in Kate, do some work before I get
to this place, Oh child, Okay.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
No, because it's it's something that like both for people
who are in the mental health field that work would
videos I mean king populations talk about, but also like
even people who are king can beis and partitioners like
who are deeply involved in the community and themselves talk
about a lot because that is something that sometimes people
don't fully account for and now is becoming a forefront

(27:33):
of the informed consent process. Again, it's one of the
things that's very individualized. So, I mean, one of the
things I've seen is happening now when people go through
air informed consent process is there's an explicit questioning about, hey,
you know when it comes to any of these particular
things you want to do, or just where you're at

(27:54):
generally right now when it comes to, you know, engaging
in any type of M or kink scene, is like,
how is your mental health now? We're not expecting, for example,
if you're in the kink and BSM community, to become
a de facto mental health practitioner, because for various reasons
you can't and shouldn't do that. But it's more about

(28:15):
being able to have that sense of care and concern
for people of like is this really the best time
to be doing this? Like is this something that's going
to be triggering for you? Is this something that you
can handle right now? Because sometimes there can be harm
or misunderstandings that happen because people either weren't being clear

(28:39):
or honest about what their personal threshold at that moment was.
So I think that Generally speaking, I would say, like,
if you are in a place where you're emotionally psychologically
very raw or tender, if you are struggling with your functioning,
if you meet criteria fire or diagnosis and the symptoms
attached to that dyet, or still very active, generally speaking,

(29:04):
I would say that you should either take a pause
before engaging or slow down and critically think about, like, well,
is it a matter of me maybe reducing the intensity
of the kind of scenes I typically engage with, or
should I maybe take a indefinite break so that I
can focus on my emotional psychological healing and be in

(29:27):
a better headspace for that. So it's again very personalized
for people. If you are a kink or bigis and
practitioner and you are being a kink affirming therapist, that's
a topic of discussion that you could bring up too,
where you're like, Hey, I know I'm not feeling my best.
I still would love to engage in scenes with people
or be in dynamics, but I am not so sure

(29:50):
if that's best for me. So like, can we talk about,
you know, what I'm going through and how to reconcile
these things, and what would seem to be the healthiest
choice to make at this time. So that's something that
can be processed thinking performing therapy.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
More from our conversation after the break. So I have
a bit of a follow up question there. In our
earlier podcast conversation we talked about, like how horror films
can help you process trauma, is there a way that

(30:28):
BDSM play and kink can also help you to process trauma? Like,
is there a way to use maybe past traumatic experiences
through play that allows you to heal from them?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Oh? Yeah, no, definitely, Like that is actually I think
one of the benefits of it. So when it comes
to BDSM, kink and trauma, one is the number one
things I would like to share with people is like
or is introduced the misbusting essentially, because there's a number
of folk who have this misconception that, oh, well, if
you're a BDS, i'm or king practitioner, you are more

(31:02):
likely to have been a victim of trauma, and none
of the research shows that there's no correlation with that.
In fact, when we look at the psychological and emotional
well being of individuals in the king can BESM communities,
they're either on par with or exceed that of their
vanilla counterparts in peer So I always just like to

(31:23):
say that if like you are just because you're in
the bean king and BSM, it's not because of trauma,
and it doesn't mean that you have a greater likelihood
of having been traumatized. But for those who you know,
have experienced trauma, they find it can be healing. One
of the main reasons is because they know what to expect.
There's clear communication. There's also explicit agency about what you

(31:44):
will and will not do. So instead of kind of
going through this vague exploration of what you do and
do not want to do, which can sometimes happen in
like vanilla sexual context, BDSM and kink by is like,
we are going to be very straightforward about what we
will will not do. Also, you know from the get go,

(32:06):
like you don't have to do anything you don't want
to do, and if you change your mind, you can.
That's one of the most beautiful things I love about
badasm and kink is it empowers people to know that
they can change their mind and there's no caveats about
well you need to have a good reason or oh,
like I've kind of feel left out. It's like no,
like if you don't want to do it for any reason,
it's fine and it stopped questions asked. But also it

(32:29):
can provide a safe container for people to confront trauma
and to work through it. So it can almost operate
off of the same underlying mechanisms and principles of like
exposure and habituation that we as mental health professionals are
aware of. So yeah, basically just providing a safe container

(32:51):
that people can co create, that is well structured and
designed for people to be able to have like a
positive sexual or romance or physical interaction with somebody, whether
or not they directly explore their trauma, because sometimes what's
healing about it if you're a trauma survivor engaged in
kink is not that you're implicitly focusing on the trauma,

(33:13):
but that you're able to go like I can have
essentially a corrective experience where it's like I can actually
be naked or have sex with someone and I don't
get hurt, Like I am going to be okay throughout
the entire experience.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
So what are some of the other myths that you
find yourself challenging frequently?

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Ooh, okay, that people who experience who are in king
commedism are inherently mentally ill, that there's something wrong with
you if you like that basically that they are abusers
or that they like being abused, that they are more
prone to violent And again when we look at and

(33:56):
the research base and evidence, like, there is no bearing
on that at all. In fact, I would say, like
because of the strong emphasis on being responsible, being caring,
being ethical, being clear, is that people are more well
adjusted in the BSM king community compared to their vanilla counterparts.

(34:20):
And also there are a lot of different protocols that
people go by to address times that harm happens and
also to actively try to prevent it from happening. And so,
like I mentioned before, there's nothing that shows that individuals
of BFM or kink involvement are more likely to be
mentally ill. In fact, they're more likely to not be.

(34:43):
And yeah, so like that's a lot of the misbusting
that I tackle. But also I think another thing that
goes along with that is helping clinicians in particular to
be aware of their own biases about this. Sometimes it's
called an ick or a quick, which is a portmanteau
of like squirm and inch of being aware. Just like

(35:06):
when we talk about anything related to margialized pressing different
text communities, it's like, what are your underlying beliefs about
people in this community? Where did that information come from?
Is it based on fact or is it just based
on essentially myths, misconceptions or just your own personal kind
of likes or dislikes around things. And it's important to

(35:29):
look at that because I find a lot of times
when people have squirms or x is based off of ignorance.
And so that's why I think education is so important
that way folks are able to examine, like, well is
that factual? I mean going back to like common behavioral therapy.
You can have a thought all day long, but like
is it factual? And like, especially if it's something you're
going to base your behaviors and how you treat people

(35:52):
off of, it's important that it's accurate. I think another
miss but also something that kind of helps people are
still learning and becoming acquaint would be Yesiman Kink. Whether
you're a license myental health professional, whether you're a practitioner,
is about you don't have to like or agree with
everything you know, and you don't have to be into everything,

(36:14):
because I think sometimes folks may feel a pressure to like, oh, well,
I just have to like immediately think everything as wonderful
then like be on board with that. And it's like, well, no,
you can still have things that you have questions about.
You can still have things that you perhaps personally wouldn't
engage with and that you would explicitly tell people like
I don't do that. But you don't have the right

(36:36):
to treat people as this they're subhuman because you disagree
with their particular kink or fetish or that power dynamic.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
So you mentioned earlier that part of the reason why
you have been so passionate about this work is because
black women and fans are often so constrained in terms
of like how sexuality shows up right, Like, there's a
lot of socidal messaging. I think that says like okay,
butanilla is okay. But you cannot go much further than that.
So what would you say to someone who maybe is
enjoying our conversation and is thinking like, Okay, maybe this

(37:07):
is something I want to explore but still maybe feels
a lot of shame, Like how do you work through
some of that?

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Oh, that's I think the immediate thing that comes to
mind is like, shame is something that you can't undo
on your own. You always need the help of other people.
I mean, yes, there can be the kind of introspection
of like breaking down why something is shameful, but I

(37:34):
think it's important to come to people that you trust,
who you know care about you and have unconditional and
positive regard for you, whether in the context of therapy
and or being a part of the BDA semon king
community with trusted peer to be able to work through it.
And I think one of the things I always like
to let people know who have shame about any aspect

(37:55):
of their sexuality is like there's no rush to immediately
switch the pendulum from feeling a shame to like feeling
full of pride and like buy in the T shirt
and having the bumper sticker, but of being able to
understand that it's a non linear process. And so I think, again,
it kind of goes back to what we were saying,

(38:15):
is it factual? Like where does the shame come from?
Where does the messaging come from? Was it from a
credible store? Because sometimes a lot of times when it
comes to sex, a lot of people were like, well,
someone or multiple people told me that this was bad
or evil or disgusting, or I got the very clear
message implicitly or explicitly that I would be rejected or

(38:38):
ostracized if I let it be known or actively expressed
desire to engage in this aspect of human sexuality. And
so I think it's always important to go back to like,
do those people know what they were talking about? You know,
there could be people who can come up with very
strong opinions, but if it isn't coming from a place

(39:02):
of accuracy, then you can't really put credence in it.
It would be like believing that the sun is made
of butter because multiple people repeatedly told you. They could
say that all day, but like you can't get your
butter knife and carb a piece out and put it
on your bagel. So I look at it like that,
at being able to really deconstruct where it comes from

(39:25):
and if it's accurate, but then also being able to
replace it with factual information. And I think also it's
important to distinguish like the difference between preference, opinion and
what the research base or evidence base says right and
what reality says, because I think it's somebody you can

(39:47):
come in and say like, well, I don't like it
because I wouldn't do that, or I don't like it
because I've never met anybody that does that, but not
one to do something is not the same as and
it's evil and I'm going to label you as being
a horrid, wretched person because of that. So I think
that's also important to make those distinctions for yourself between
what's just a matter of preference or opinion, what does

(40:09):
this actually mean and look like, and what's the effect
and consequences of it when it's an action? And then
what does the research base say, what does like the
educational base say.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
So you mentioned earlier that for a lot of people
that you've talked with, like media has been their introduction
or they saw something or read something that made them think, oh,
I want to know more about this. I mean, we've
definitely seen BDSM and kink kind of in pop culture
and in media specifically movies and things like Fifty Shades
of Gray and more recently Baby Girl. What do you
think these pieces and maybe not just these pieces specifically,

(40:43):
but what does media generally get right about vidasm in cake?
And what would you like to see maybe done differently.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Oh, this is a hard one for me because I've
seen how it goes so wrong so many times that
I've kind of like, I'm a little faulty about media
portrayals of BDSM and kink because they think typically what
they get wrong is consent and all the other ethical
pieces of it, where there are the fifty shades of

(41:11):
gray being a classic example, like that's been condemned by
the b SM kink community because the lead character is
not engaging in like ethical consensual practices and in a
number of ways like is exhibiting abuse and manipulation and coercion.
So there're like some media portrayals that like do that,

(41:34):
and like I think often there's like a lack of
exploring like the informed consent negotiation process, clear communication aftercare
some of the better examples that I've seen, like Secretary,
even though there are some things that you did in
real life, I was like, well that wouldn't be ethical,
But like about the healing aspect of like the relationship

(41:57):
those two people who were able to use dynamics as
a way of being able to get better mentally, emotionally,
and physically. But also there's a documentary from the nineteen
nineties that I forget the name of, but was able
to go through in deep detail, like the training process

(42:20):
of if you're interested in being like a dominant or
the missives, and also being able to talk for FAMI
with people about like, well, what are your motivation, like
how do you engage in a practice, et cetera. So
I think like what I would like to see more of,
it's like more comprehensive, like from top to bottom of
what it would be like for a character to like

(42:42):
have their kind of kink awakening, to be able to
actually go through the process of like learning more about this,
but also if things go wrong, being able to show
how that could be corrected, rather than just being like, well,
something happened, and we're not going to for what happened,
and you're just going to move on to the next thing. Basically,
I want something that's a bit more realistic rather than

(43:03):
just kind of using BSM or kink as a plot
device or something.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
You know. Mm hmmmm. So you mentioned that, you know,
large part of VDSM is kind of power play, and
I'm thinking about like black women in films in spaces,
thinking about like race and gender kind of showing up
in that space, right, because that no space is free
of those kinds of isms. Right, So what kinds of
things do black women in films need to be aware

(43:30):
of in thinking about like finding affirming in like safe
places for them to kind of get more resources or
to be in community.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, no, because the reality is, to be a Simon King,
community is predominantly white, and it's predominantly affluent, and it's
a little bit predominantly you know, people who pursued higher education,
et cetera. So there's a lot of privilege in that space.
And it's not just coming from like the practitioners, but
people who hold positions of power as a part of
committees and boards and organizations. So and I mean there

(44:01):
has been not only for ten accounts, but research for
folks who've been like, yeah, even though I'm active in
this community, I have phased discrimination. It's not guaranteed to
happen every single time you go out to play, but
like any subculture is a microcosm of the broader culture,
so it can happen. As a counterpoint to that, there

(44:22):
have been, over the course of decades a number of
blacks centered BDSM and kink organizations. So some of the
like broader ones that I can think of are like
Black Roads. There's also Onyx, which like it's divided like
their Onyx, which is predominantly for like gay black men.

(44:44):
And then there's Onyx Pearls for women and fem But
also there are small room, more independent like play parties
and communities that are created, and like I mentioned earlier,
they're sex down South, which was created predominantly by and
for black bds kink whilesos sex positives folks. So I
would just say, like particularly looking online or as you're

(45:06):
delving into it, of like following the educator who are
black women and fems, and then from there being able
to see like what would be events both online and
person that they're organizing or that they're supporting or that
they're promoting who.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
We talked about some of the more mainstream examples of
media like the movies and stuff. But porn I think
is also another way that people maybe get introduced to
BDSHM in kink. Can you talk about or share you
some of your thoughts around like porn being a healthy
route to learning more about BDSHIM in kink and what
should people be aware of?

Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, I guess For me, in my mind, I categorize
porn into two main camps. There's like main stream porn
and then there's like more like ethical, independent, feminist queer porn,
and like when it comes to porn and those like
latter categories, I feel like there's more positive, healthy, realistic

(46:06):
representation of BDSM and kink. So like some places that
come to mind as like ex Confessions and Left Cinema
by Erica Lust. There's also cam Damages online website. There's
also a four Chambered Heart that I think is like
really enjoyable and really beautiful and really like realistic and positive. Yeah,

(46:30):
So those are some of the examples I can think of,
and the reason why I like them is they're not
only humanizing, but again you can tell that there is
a desire to gives like very faithful representations a BDSM
and kank and to make sure that you know, people
have like more of an accurate understanding as they're watching

(46:51):
it and not just thinking like, oh, this is just
just something cute that I can like take in, digest
and dispose of. Like, but they I think do a
good job. They do it justice, Doctor Holmes.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
You've talked about like the importance of safety and kind
of your own self assessment before you kind of get
into play. Is there anything more that you want to
say about safety or things for people to consider as
they are thinking more about this topic.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
I think it just again. The only other thing that
would add that I haven't mentioned before would be following
your gut of like if there's something that just personally
for you doesn't feel right, then listening to that rather
than just being like, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna
overlook that, because you know, I don't want to hurt

(47:40):
anybody's feelings or step on anybody's toes. Like you can
say no and be respectful, or you could say like
I feel uncomfortable, and I would also say that, like
if you're in that kind of leminal space where you're like,
I don't feel like this is good, but I don't
have like all the information as to why, Like that's
enough of a reason, because they've sometimes seen when it
comes to romantic or sexual interactions of any sort, not

(48:01):
just the BDSM and kink, where people are like my
intuition was telling me like this wasn't okay, But because
I didn't immediately have all the information about why I proceeded,
and it was only afterwards that I realized why for me,
this wasn't going to be a good experience. And so
I think it's important, like as a matter of safety,
of listening to that because you can take that extra

(48:24):
time to slow down and be like, well, what about
this doesn't feel good instead of just overlooking it and
rushing ahead to proceed with a particular person or fiene
or event. Also, going back to the educational piece, I
forgot to mention a jet sitting Jasmine who is a
porn performer, a sex educator who also does work when
it comes to sex positivity, BDSM and kink and her

(48:46):
husband who's a fellow performer and educator King Nowar do
really great work. Also, the extra cool thing is that
jetsaying Jasmine is also a licensed with the health professional
as well.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Nice thank you for that additional resource. So you know,
you mentioned that sometimes like talking with a therapist, like
somebody who is like BDSM kink affirming could be a
great way to kind of talk more about this. How
would we find a BDSM and kink affirming therapist? Like,
is there some registry, some directory, some certification that you

(49:15):
need to have that people should be aware of.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
No, it's really cool. So now there's like a number
of places. So there are particular places like Kink Affirming Professionals,
which is a directory that was designed by the National
Coalition of Sexual Freedom for professionals who are not only
proficient when it comes to kink and BSM, but also
even ethical non monogamy, which is owned separate subculture and

(49:40):
category of sexuality. Is just to be able to make
it easier to find folks to do that kind of work.
Though you could definitely go to there again, like CAP
Professionals or Kink Affirming Professionals directory. They're also though has
now in a lot of regular therapist directories been a
different search terms or like boxes you can check related

(50:03):
to being like sex positive or kink affirming. I've seen
that on like Psychology Today. I've also seen that on
like Therapy Den. I've seen that on Inclusivetherapist dot com.
So there's like a number of places that are general
directories as well that like they have those search terms
that you can put in and look for.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Got it and you mentioned that you are working on
a course to help clinicians to become more versed in
this and like do no Harm. So can you tell
us more about that course?

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, so it's entitled the Kink and Clinical Practice when
in one course it is a AP approved continuing education course.
There's also some approval from other mental health organizations and
it's available through the Touchdown Institutes. I believe the link
should be available in the show notes if I remember correctly.
I designed it as an introductory level course for pre

(50:56):
licensed and licensed clinicians who again may be interesting or
heard about kink and BDFM, but they feel like, I
don't know anything about this, So it's a very fun
and geeky and I think warm introductory course at least
I like to think. So that's how it's signed it
for people. And yeah, I'd be more than happy for

(51:17):
people to take part in that. Currently it's available as
like a self pace online course, so you could do
it at your own leisure.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
And yeah, and you said that's at Touchstone dot com.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yeah, the Touchstone Institute got it.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Okay, we definitely will include that in the show notes.
And likewise, where can people stay connected with you? What
is your website? As well as any social media handles
you'd like to share.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
You can find me at the Center for Inclusive Therapy
and LAMA so the website addresses Inclusive Wellness dot com.
If I remembering correctly, and just search for doctor Lana
Holmes and I seed folks in individual and couple cell therapy.
And then also I'm available on LinkedIn as well, so
you can put in doctor Lana homes or Lana Homesidy

(52:01):
and find me there perfect well.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Thank you so much for spending some more time with
us today, doctor Holmes.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
I appreciate it. Oh, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
I'm so glad doctor Holmes was able to join us
for this conversation and to share her expertise. It was
a pleasure to have us to join us and help
us break past taboo narratives, unpack shame, and reclaim our
sexuality with clarity and care. To learn more about her
and her work, be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session four one six,

(52:33):
and don't forget to text two of your girls right
now and tell them to check out the episode. Did
you know that you could leave us a voicemail with
your questions or suggestions for the podcast? Whether you have
a question for me insights from a recent episode or
suggestions for topics, books or movies we should cover. Drop
us a voicemail at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for

(52:53):
Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it in a future episode. If
you're looking for a therapys in your area, visit our
therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory,
and don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at
Therapy for Black Girls or join us over in our
Patreon community at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

(53:15):
for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more. We
can't wait to see you inside. This episode was produced
by Elise Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done
by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continuing this
conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Session 416: Navigating BDSM & Kink As A Black Woman