We couldn’t let this month go by without having a conversation about one of my favorite things, music. While we’re only halfway through the year, there have already been so many major moments, from iconic performances to albums that push past genre limitations. These culturally-defining moments have all been sparked by artists we love, and we’d be remiss not to celebrate the ongoing impact of Black artists in music.
In honor of Black Music Month, we're joined by Mankaprr Conteh, staff writer at Rolling Stone, and Delisa Shannon, short-form content director at Billboard. Together, we unpacked some of the standout moments of 2025 so far, talk about the artists who are redefining the rules, and reflect on what Black music continues to teach us about innovation, identity, and joy.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Check out her work: https://www.delisashannon.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four seventeen of Therapy for
Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
word from our sponsors. We couldn't let this month go
by without having a conversation about one of my favorite things. Music.
(01:22):
While we're only halfway through the year, there have already
been so many major moments, from iconic performances to albums
that push past genre limitations. These culturally defining moments have
all been sparked by artists we love, and we'd be
remiss not to celebrate the ongoing impact of black artists
in music. In honor of Black Music Month. I'm joined
(01:44):
by Makofarkante, staff writer at Rolling Stone, and Alisa Shannon,
short form content director at Billboard. Together we unpack some
of the standout moments of twenty twenty five so far,
talk about the artists who are redefining the rule, and
reflect on what black music continues to teach us about innovation, identity,
(02:05):
and joy. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TVG in session, or join us over in our Patreon community.
Just talk more in depth about the episode, you can
join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Here's our conversation. Well, thank you both so much for
(02:38):
joining me today. I'm very excited. I always enjoy our
Black Music Month conversations, so I would love for you
both to introduce yourselves and let the audience know who
you are.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
We will start with you. De Lisa.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Hi, everybody, My name is Delisa Shannon. I am a
video producer, host, content creator out in Brooklyn, New York
from his Soon originally and yeah that's me.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
What about you?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Manca Fair?
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Hi, am Manca Percanti I'm a staff writer at Rolling Stone,
where I mostly cover Black music, hip hop, R and B.
I love covering African pop music, and sometimes I dip
into like politics and comedy too.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So I always love when we have journalists on the
conversation because I feel like y'all are having a moment
and both some really great ways and maybe some not
so exciting ways. I think it's a great conversation, especially
for people who are interested in pursuing journalism, whether they're
in school now.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Or in the future.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And so can you start, maybe Macha Purbat's telling us
when you fell in love with music and what lets
you know you wanted to pursue music journalism.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Man.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
I got a boombox as a gift for my fifth
birthday and I had it ontol like graduated college. It
was like one of those CD tape radio combination players.
And I grew up as an only child, so I
spend a lot of time by myself listening to music,
and that evolved into like building a CD collection and
into watching a lot of music documentaries and historical accounts
(04:04):
archival accounts on like VH one, MTVBT. I really went
to school interested in doing more political journalism, and then
I was more interested in doing more sort of like
social justice work, like working in international development. My parents
are from Sierra Leone, and I was always really aware
of the difference in lives that me and my cousins
who are still on the continent lived. But luckily, while
(04:27):
I was kind of figuring out my way, Melissa Harris
Perry started teaching at my university and at the time,
she had this amazing show on MSNBC where she was
pulling all of my interests into one. You know, she's
a political scientist by training, but she's talking about Beyonce
and pop culture and why the things that we listen
to and engage with for fun matter and the impact
(04:48):
that they have on our day to day lives. And
so she took me under her wing as a mentor
and opened up a lot of opportunities for me to
also do similar work. One of my first professional writing
experiences was about Lemonade. I was a senior in college
and she had asked me to write about it for
Elle And there were all these different socio political elements
that my friends and I who she asked to write
(05:08):
with her, were pulling out of it, and I was like, Oh,
I can do something that I find like fun and
meaningful at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
In music, journalism love it.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
We always love a good nerd Land reference around here,
so I always stick scited to hear that amazing what
about you, de Lisa.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
So my first introduction to what music and the power
of it can be. I used to be a dancer,
so I was exposed at a very young age just
so many different types of music. I was classically trained,
so there were super indie records that like I didn't
even know about that my life is just like exposed to.
(05:46):
And then there's also like super pop and all these
different things. And I realized how music and movement directly
connected to my body and how so much of my
processing of like everything that I was experiencing as a
young girl growing up in the suburbs of Houston, I
got to express through music and through movement. So that's
(06:07):
when I first fell in love with music. And then
I went to college for journalism, and at the time
I was obsessed with Quinta Brunson because she was at
BuzzFeed in LA and she was doing all these things
of pulling in pop culture and reflecting how our stories
(06:27):
are powerful even in the simple moments. I think she
had a really interesting perspective and so I was like,
I'm going to be Quintin Brunson. So I came to
New York and I worked at Busfeed, and I remember,
like my senior year of college, one of my journalism
professors was like, what are you trying to do? Like
he didn't really understand, and he was like, you need
(06:49):
to be serious, you need to like think about this
world seriously. And I was like, well, I seriously love
music and I seriously love storytelling. That's the only thing
I know. So I'm happy to say years later, we're
here and we're doing things. Shout out to Robert Jensen
for putting some fire under me. But yeah, I remember
working like a really boring desk job in New York,
(07:10):
and I felt the power again of how important music
was to me being in New York seeing all these
artists find their way through music and how it was happening.
And I saw this company genius who was fought lighting
people like Billie Eilish and Doja Cat but also like
Ogeez like with Khalifa, and I was just like, I
(07:31):
need to be a part of that it was the
only thing that I knew that was true. Again, it
brought me back to that time of being a dancer.
It brought me back to that time where I was
questioned by that journalism professor like get serious, and I
was like, okay, well, I seriously love.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
This, and so I've been in music ever since. I
love that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So both so very different stories that would brought you here,
but both doing incredible work. So what three words would
you use to describe the current musical.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Landscape that's big? Malcofreddy to take this one first.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Yeah, I'm trying to think.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
The first word that I'm thinking is I'm thinking of
a word that's like the opposite of monocultural. Like I
think that when we were growing up, like there were
these big singular stars that like all of us rallied
around Beyonce, Usher, Kanye West, Rihanna and like those people
are still very famous. But I think that the music
ecosystem now is so so diverse and individualized. Maybe as
(08:24):
a word that I would say, right, like, not only
do we have platforms like Spotify and Apple truly like
making you know, eclectically named playlists for what kind of
music you listened to? Throughout different portions of the day,
Right you'll get like Yogi, Hot Girls summer morning or
whatever on Spotify. But I think that also people have
found like much more niche communities as far as they're
(08:46):
listening as well. And we don't have as many of
these like mega superstars as I think we've historically had
over the past, maybe even like forty fifty years, But
there are people who mean a lot to these like
tight engaged, smaller communities of listeners and artists. So that's
my first word. I would say, maybe like individualized.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Okay, what about you de Lisa, I would.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Say, like the most simple is like exploratory. I think
monkber to what you're saying. Like before, there was like
a path and it was like you do this, you
do this, you do this, and so that's how we
kind of had our mount rushmore of R and B artists,
hip hop artists, pop artists, black specifically, because there was
(09:30):
a bit of a mold, and I feel like what
we're seeing now is people actually trying to find themselves
through the craft. I think obviously that was happening before,
and there were ways that was happening on a small level,
and then once you got big, it got smaller and
smaller and more contained. But what I feel like, what
I'm seeing now is like I'm seeing so many people
(09:51):
experiment and experience things, literally going through something and then
immediately putting it into the music. And then I think
that is that intimacy that I think we have with these.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Artists right now.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I guess that would be my second word, is because
that humanity is being expressed through their music in ways
that I feel like that hasn't happened in the past
and hasn't been celebrated for in the past. On a
grand scale, I feel like it's more common to see
someone do a pop album and then do a rock
infused album and then do something like super boombab, like
(10:27):
dog like hip hop and rap and like really to
the source, and they could do something completely different the
next day. And as a fan, I'm excited because I
get to see this person figure themselves out, and I
think that's so special. I feel like that's not something
that we had to look up to when I was
younger listening to music.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
For sure, that realise that also makes me think of
how global music has gotten And I think that would
be my second word because I think that it's not
only exploratory, like from the artist's standpoint, but from the
listener's standpoint. People are so open minded where there's so
many people willing to listen to music and languages they
don't speak or understand, to like travel sonically in their listening,
(11:08):
and that also, like I've seen that turn into like
actual physical traveling. Right. Like I was in Nigeria for
the first time this December, and everybody was saying, We've
never seen this many people in the streets. The traffic
is usually bad in Christmas time, but it's never been
this bad. And it kind of feels like the heightened
travel and tourism to leg Us in December is also
fueled by this heightened presence globally of like afrobeats and
(11:31):
African culture and legos being the center. And so I think,
especially as like a daughter of African immigrants growing up
in African culture, it's been such a blessing to really connect,
especially with other Black folks throughout the diaspora, Black American folks,
Black Latin folks. It's been really really cool to see
us all connect and see what like the origins of
our music have in common, and like what that has
(11:51):
built up to now in other places.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, I love these words that y'all have chose, because
I think that it does feel like there is a
real kind of innovation happening right and people being very experimental,
Like you mentioned Delisa in the work that they're doing
with music. How do you feel like listeners are responding
to the ways that black women specifically are being innovative
and reclaiming genres in a lot of ways in their
music right now.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Oh, it's up.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
It is so up, And I think it's like it's
beautiful for you, said Monkoper, like monocultural. It's like it's
not that, it's the exact opposite of that. And I
think for the first time, it's like looking at celebrity
or artistry, and for the first time for me, it
(12:37):
feels like it's like a prism of light, Like I
can see so many different reflections of myself in different
phases of my life. And that's what's so, so so
special about what we're getting to see with black women
specifically in all types of genres. I can wake up
in the morning and be like, I want to listen
to Alameda. I will listen to Rachel cheririy. I want
(13:00):
to listen to Doci, I want to listen.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
To Flo Millie.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Those are four completely different artists. And the fact that
I can I can go and find exactly what is
a reflection of me and where I am.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I think that's so special.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
How every day I can have a different mood, my
expression of like how I dress can match with a
different artist too. Like it's so vast what I feel like,
what we're getting to see and witness being produced from
Black women. That's like, yeah, it really is just up
for us, and it's not stopping. It's only getting more
amplified and more diverse and more free.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Really, yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Like I think about how things that maybe you might
have seen as like contradictory, right, Like you might like
Leon Lahavis and you might like Sexy Red, and you
might feel I think there's like a version of us
in the past that might feel like you can't be
fans of like women that are so different at the
same time. But to your point, De Lisa, I think
that we are seeing little bits of ourselves and so
many different types of women, And I think that there's
(14:04):
just been like a mold that's been able to be
broken about what a black woman artist has to sound like,
what she can do, where she can go. And that's
been really like a really cool and inspiring moment to
live in as a listener and as a journalist.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yan I want to stay with you for a second
Minchael Burber, because you write the maiden Africa column for
a Rolling Stone, and so I do feel like, as
you've talked about African artists are having, it feels like
a continued moment and just are on the rise. What
role do you feel like people like Tams and Uncle
Woffle are playing in terms of like opening the door
for future generations of African women musicians.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Man, I love thinking about Thames, especially because I find
her story so so inspiring because Thames she started out
producing her own music because she was so interested. She
grew up listening to like Low Wayne and Destiny's Child
and like of course, like you know, the African pop
music that was popular where she grew up and throughout
the diaspora. But she wanted to do that and more.
(14:58):
And then when she was starting her career, she couldn't
find people who were willing to take her sound in
all the different directions that she wanted to take it,
so she had to learn how to make it herself.
And I think that, you know, speaking of genre and
like speaking of boxes, I think that that on a
smaller level happens to like artists from especially West Africa,
Like they all get lumped into like afrobeats, when people
(15:18):
are making R and B, people are doing rap, people
are making rock, like, people are doing all types of
things and often you know, weaving in sort of like
traditional percussion patterns or traditional instrumentation into it, but also
sometimes they're not. And I think Thames is one of
the first people from that scene. She even like is
thought of as part of a scene called Alte, which
have artists like Amare Santi who were doing really experimental
(15:41):
like pop music out of Nigeria and Ghana primarily, and
she really took that globally and that resonated with so
many different people. Think about how many videos you've seen
of like Black Girls on vacation with Free Mind playing
in the background, right. I think that she's really become
someone we can all kind of be drawn to.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
And like see ourselves.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
And even though she grew up a world away from
those of us who grew up in the US or London.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So is there a moment so far this year in
music that has made a lasting impression on either of you?
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Ooh yeah, Doci's Grammy win de Lisa? Is that what
you were gonna say?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I was like, the first thing that popped up was
the Tom Brown look her and like the undies and
everybody just dancing around her.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
That was the first image that popped up.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
Yeah. Yeah, because it's like, not only did she make
history as like the third woman ever to win Rap
Album of the Year, but then she performed and just
set it on fire and showed exactly why she deserved
that Grammy, her very first Grammy. And I think there
are a lot of us who are like cheering and
rooting for Doci for a couple of years before this moment,
(16:48):
but it's like everybody got to see what we've seen
in that night. It's really been incredible to watch this
like black girl who is so vocal about being a
black girl, so vocal about being dark skin, so vocal
about being queer, vocal about being from Florida's a vocal
about her community and also not fitting in there, like
putting Tampa where she grew up on her back and
also saying like I didn't fit in.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
I was really out of.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
The box for the people that I was around, but
I still love them and they're a part of me
and also someone you know. I think it'll be nice
to see doc if she can continue to be as
vulnerable as she's been, because inevitably, with that kind of
spotlight on you, you will make mistakes. And I think
that it's important, you know, as far as like us
seeing the whole person.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Now our lives are so thirty.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Sixty with like social and the way that we interact
with each other online. I think she's going to need
like a lot of support, but I hope she feels
the freedom to really just be who she is whatever
whatever happens.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Is there anything else about that DOCI moment that she
would add to Lisa that has made that a last
thing impression for you?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I have so much pride in Doci, and like I
personally haven't felt this much like personal connection to an
artist maybe like ever. I think that I appreciate artists
for what they do, but I think her story of
doing the mold right, of doing the pop thing, of
(18:05):
doing the lane that she was supposed to and then
feeling like this, like this tension of like this isn't me,
and then being able to strip all of that away
and put her mind to this Alligator Bites Never Heel
mixtape project and then it changing her life. That story
for me and my life is like that is the
(18:28):
motivation that I often come back to and why it
was so important to see her on that stage, Like
you said, Machberg, she gets that win and then she
shows us exactly why and exactly who she is.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And I don't know, I think it's.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
A true testament to you know what you're talking about,
that vulnerability. I think she's kind of I wouldn't say
mastered it, but I think she's getting familiar with that
practice of fracture and rebuild and self and I think
that having that right now for us black women to
see is so it's so important to me because it's
(19:09):
in the music, it's everywhere. It's in the like high
hats that she's using, it's in the references to her
home and feeling like she doesn't belong, and then the
dreamlike dreamscapes in La and like where she's going towards,
Like all of that was put into one project and
so then to be able to see everybody else be like,
(19:32):
who the hell is this? If they didn't know, now
they do know. I had people texting me like your
girls up, we up. I'm like, yes, We're so up.
Like I think it's like what she is doing, especially
for darker skin black women. I think it is top
tier for me, and I'm so happy that that's where
we started. You started the year with her, and I
(19:53):
think she's going to continue to ride this momentum because
she has a very solid foundation of being grounded, and
I think that's what's so important for me to also see,
is like she did the work to put the roots
and now we're getting to see this through.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
More from our conversation after the break. I want to
go back to something you say in Malka Her because
you mentioned like the role social media please, and I
think that this is a big one, right, like because
you know, earlier you mentioned the intimacy, and it feels
(20:32):
like there is a part of like getting to know
artists a little bit on social that does maybe add
to the music value. But I also feel like there
is this other side that you kind of mentioned Machapear
around the criticism and you know, people can be very harsh.
And so what role do you feel like social media
is playing with the music industry right now, specifically as
it impacts black women artists.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Man, my mind went to Doja Cat first. I think
there are so many different relationships that like black women
have had with social media. Like you have people who
are really, I think reserved, Like I think Thames's social
media personality is really reserved, Like they're not always the
most polished photos. But she's not having a lot of conversations.
I remember one time people assumed that the imagery and
(21:16):
the music video for her song Me and You was
alluding to eurob a deity, and she was like, no,
this is about my relationship with Jesus Christ actually, But
like she doesn't really pop into like correct record or
respond to criticism online that much. But like Dojakat is
like an artist of the internet, right, Like she grew
up in online communities that, like her music started populating
(21:40):
and tending getting popular on SoundCloud when that was like
a platform that a lot of different people were able
to kind of like build a life and career. And
she was really out there, really polarizing, and we've seen
her dip in and out of the online space, and
so I think it's like a double sided opportunity with
the social media is like you really get to be
whoever you want, but you get to hear what everybody
(22:01):
thinks about it. And I think that black women in
particular that can be subjected to so many particular types
of criticism, right, whether it's like too aggressive, too sexual,
all kinds of things that kind of go back to,
like you know, age old stereotypes that can make it
particularly a harsh environment. But I think it's really interesting
to see how different people have decided who they're going
(22:22):
to be, where, when and why.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, I see that a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
My role at Billboard is short form content director, right,
and short form content is such a no one has
a real definition for it right now, but it's a
lot of those bite sized moments of connecting with artists
and audience that's like whittled down, that's the definition. So
social media something that I often find even with myself
(22:51):
as a creator of this content, is like this is
now a part of the job. Before social media was
just a place to connect and now it's becoming well,
now we have thirty minutes before you go on stage
that you once took for yourself, but now you've got
to turn it on and be back to that person
that we want.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
You to be.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
And I am very aware of black women in that
space because I can see the work that we're both doing.
Like a perfect example of this is like Coco Jones.
It was like a breath of fresh air being around
her and creating content with her because I felt like
she had boundaries that were safe and healthy for her,
(23:32):
and I think she's worked really hard to figure out
what those are, because, yeah, you know what it's like
to be on the internet and not feel comfortable, but
you know you have to. And so I see that
now a lot more with black women and black women
in music making sure that they aren't being taken advantage of.
It's like, if you get five minutes, you get five minutes,
(23:53):
you get two questions. It's gonna be those two questions.
I'm gonna give it to you. I know what my
job is because I respect my job and I respect
this craft, and I respect the audience who is going
to be on the other side of this and the
opportunity that they have to connect with me. But I
won't overextend. I won't go across my boundaries, and that's
been really inspiring for me as I navigate this career
(24:15):
in this thing called social media and knowing how much
more of it is a part and not an accessory.
It's woven in viral moments are baked into a press
tour or sought out for a press tour to make
sure that that person can get butts and seats for
a tour, and because of that, we have a different
(24:36):
relationship to it. So the very interesting thing that I
think about constantly and wanting to respect everyone's time because
I know social media and the Internet isn't a place anymore.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
We exist in.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It, and I want to create and respect boundaries that
respect the artistry that I respect.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Yeah, DEI, So that makes me think about just how
brave black women have to be to be like not
just like public facing people period, but public facing people
in the Internet age and the social media age. Like
I was thinking about the interview that Chloe Bailey did.
Her and her sister have gone through very very difficult things,
very very publicly, very much charged by social media, right
like looking at like the unfortunate circumstances of Hallie's relationship
(25:18):
with the father of her child and him sicking according
to her and her legal filings, like secking his audience
on her that he has as like a twitch star whatever,
there is like conflict in their relationship. And I remember
Chloe Howie's sister is saying in an interview on The
Breakfast Club after this December, she was a topic of
conversation on social media because it seemed as though she
(25:39):
was spending a lot of intimate time with burna boy,
and one of the hosts was just like, you don't
have to talk about this or something to that extent,
and she was like, but I do understand that, Like
I'm a public person and I signed up to make
music and make public art, and I do understand that
this is a part of it. So this is what
I am willing to say to defend myself, to correct
the record, but everything else is out of my hands.
(26:00):
And I thought that was like really really sweet and
mature and like far more than we really can ask
of her, but super responsible as an artist and a
professional to say, like, what y'all do with my life
is what y'all do, and what I'm going to give
you is what I'm going to give you.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So I don't feel like we can have a conversation
about black music this year in particular without thinking about
as we've already talked about, like the genre, exploring and
kind of reclaiming genres, without talking about old Renaissance and
Cowboy Corder and Denisa, I would love to hear from you,
specifically as a Texas person, what do you feel like
(26:34):
Cowboy Carter really unlocked for black women.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I say this as like I have a little cowboy
boot right there, and I have a whole closet full
of Cowboy parent I'm just glad that we're here, okay,
cause I've been waiting.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I think what I have said a lot in my
life coming from Texas to New York and expressing that
relationship to music with people, black country music, black folk music,
that is the bedrock of everything that we are like
as people. It's one of the most American quote unquote
(27:12):
things that we have. Is this thing that black people
have created for freedom, for connection, community, for elation. It
is the truest thing. And so I think when people
first were like, Okay, we got a country album and
there's parts of it that are a little kitchy, right, It's
like the finger guns and the like this that right, Like, yes,
(27:36):
there are some things that are really all the knows,
I will say that, But when you press play on
that album and you hear American Requiem and you hear
the fullness of the voice, that production isn't by happenstance, right,
It's not to make a good, nice song like that
(27:56):
was the introduction of what Beyonce's reimagination of where she's from.
Like I get chills even thinking about it, because the
way the track is produced it's so powerful, and then
this beautiful story is told so many different fibers and
(28:18):
textures of black country, black rock, black Americana. It's like
I think it's you know, everyone's coming to the tour
and they've got there, they've got the outfits on. But
again it's like when she's standing there and.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
She's singing these songs that are so.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Natural and organic, like you can't not help but get
emotional thinking about it. It's yeah, she did that and
then some on this album. But also I think even
the way that like Blackbird, that she's opening the door
for these other black country female artists too also feel
(29:00):
connected to this thing in this way and introduce them
to people who they create distance from country because of
the whiteness, because of the racism.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It's truly truly special.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
I think that one of the things that has always
been true for Beyonce is every project I think is
better than the last in some way.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
And I don't know if, like if it.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Is from her being able to pour so much of
her culture and how she grew up into this album,
but I think it's the most powerful she's ever sang.
I think some of these songs are the most complex,
you know that she's written and co produced or had
produced for her. And I think that the reclamation of
genre is really interesting to me because I also I'm
seeing ripples of it elsewhere. I even am seeing in
(29:44):
like in Sinners. I actually just had a conversation with
Ryan Coogler about music in that film, and he was
talking to me about seeing the parallels in the way
that artists have been pigeonholed because they are black in
music to the ways that filmmakers are pigeonholed in his industry.
Beca from the very beginning, music that was rock and roll,
that was country was just race records.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
They were like.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Music was primarily brought through catalogs, and so everything else
was segregated, and so the catalogs are segregated, and literally,
you know, like black artists could be singing or have
created the same song that a white artist is singing,
and that gets to be rock and roll, or that
gets to be country, but what the black artist is
doing has to be R and B or it has
to just be a race record. And I think that
(30:26):
watching how even in that movie, it disrupts genre because
it's not just a horror film. It's an action film,
it's a period piece, it's a romance, it's a comedy,
and so many black artists and black women in particular
are rejecting these boxes that they're put in. I think
Beyonce has done it in like one of the most
culture shifting ways this.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Year with Cowboy Carter.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
And I mean, I think that it's a difficult conversation
right to reclaim an American identity in a moment where
a lot of awful things are being done in the
name of an American identity or americanism or American patriotism.
But I think that sometimes as an African woman, I
have conversations with multi generational black American women and they'll
sometimes it'll break my heart when people will be like, Oh,
(31:08):
I don't have a culture like.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
You, And that's so far from the truth.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Like so much of what defines American culture as a
whole is actually Black American culture first. And there are
so many different elements of Black American culture, so many
different layers from even from regions, Like it varies so
much from regions to region, right, which is what we're
seeing in Cowboy Carter. And so I think it is
really beautiful for there to be like a claim stake
for being originators, for having something special and unique and
(31:35):
like communal and cultural, and the bigger question of like
what does it mean to be American is like a
complicated one.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Do you feel like we will see a lasting impact
of other Black women being able to kind of stretch
across genres from the ways that like Beyonce has opened
up and even Meg collaborating with K pop stores, Right,
you feel like this is the beginning of a lasting
impact or more of a trend kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
That's such a good question.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I love that you brought up Megan k pop because
I feel like it goes back to that, Like both
the conversation about globalization and social media, Like we are
so connected to each other and we're so aware of
what's going on in all these different corners of the world,
and we have been allowed to be and have so
many models of like expansiveness that I think that what
genres are popular, right, like what kinds of collaborations and
(32:21):
what kinds of experiments happen are reliant on trends. But
I think just like the general practice of reaching beyond
what you're told, that you can do what's popular from
just where you're from, what even you were doing earlier
in your career. To Delese's point, like, I think that
general practice of doing whatever you want, I think that's
going to stick around.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So are there any other artists that you both want
to put on the radar or who you also feel
like are doing some exciting and innovative work in terms
of stretching beyond genres.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I was gonna say Raven Lenney, I feel like being
able to see her music have this like three hundred
and sixty five day like light bulb, Like people were like,
oh wait, she's making this kind of music. I think
obviously when she first started it was think I think
it was like Sticky was her first track that like
really popped. I think it might have been on Insecure.
(33:15):
It was very R and B leaning, and then even
to where we are now has this little tinge of
folk to it and also like mainstream pop in a way.
And that's been really exciting to see how people that
I never thought would see her or reach her are
now excited and like at the forefront, begging and waiting
(33:36):
for her to shine. I think it's not about crossing
over in that way, but it has been so interesting
to see people who I never thought would be checking
for Raven Lenay. And I think that's a testament to
how she has been able to follow her intuition about
what music she creates and tell her story through it.
I mean, her most recent project is her most personal,
telling her story through love and loss. And I think
(33:59):
that that kind of intimacy that we were talking about earlier,
I think that is the thing that is helping keep
this door wide open for black women to continue to
spread their hands and spirit against different genres is because
at the end of the day, what people are searching
for is for something that's real and that's connected to something,
(34:21):
and I think that's what's allowing people to tap into
other sources, Because yeah, you may be Reco Nasty and
you may need to like jump into this like rock
like super Screamo Vibe to like tell your story, but
then you might need to slot into like some hip
hop to tell that story. And that's all on the
same project and then like hyper pop and all of that.
(34:42):
So at the end of the day, it's about that authenticity.
And I think that I feel like authenticity maybe of like, oh,
they do this thing, they have the same notes of
the genre that I need to have in order for
it to be authentically pop, authentically this. But now it's
about the story. So I think it's opening that laye
up really well for women. And I think those two
(35:03):
raven Lene and Rico Nasty are definitely definitely ones that
I I'm always checking for.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
I was willing to talk about Rico as well, because
I think her new album, especially like she's doing rock
music so well on this new album, and she always
has like you know, her first couple of projects that
like really blew her up are called sugar Trap. So
it was this really you know, poppy, saccharin like rappie thing,
(35:30):
but like this new album is like hard, like close
to metal, and I love that because like growing up,
I loved rock music like I love Paramore.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
A lot of black women right love Paramore. I loved my.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Chemical Romance, all American rejects, like all these bands that
were primarily white people, And I love that when I'm
now in the mood to hear music like that, there
are so many different black women that I can put on.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
I can put on Alameda, I can put on Rico Nassi,
I can put on Willow Willow Smith.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
I think it's also incredible, and especially even like watching
her come from like a LENI just black women rock,
like from her mom, especially like having grown up in
white environments. It's so so nice to hear this type
of music that you love, but like see someone who
reminds you of you while you're listening to it, and
like watching it.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Let's stay with Wilot for a little while, because I
feel like her and artists like Chloe, like you talked
about before in Solange, have been very vocal about like
being very involved in the behind the scenes like creative
control of their projects. How important do you think it
is for black women to really be not just the
face of the music, but also involved in those behind
the scenes thingings.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
I feel like it's one of the things that's so
impressive about like Beyonce, right like as a model is
it's like she's not just a pretty face, she's not
just a gorgeous dancer.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
It's like she is arranging the vocal. She is with
the producer.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
She's bringing this encyclopedic knowledge of black music history to
the booth, to the songwriter's table. I mean, you know,
I think that thinking about black women as producers, even
like Layla is like someone who's really interesting in that
right most Deaf's daughter, she's breaking out with her own
songs right now. She's definitely very young and like the
(37:06):
kids are tapped in with her, but she's very adamant that,
Like she's like, I'm a producer and there aren't a
lot of black women in the production space right now.
And so I think that every time we see people,
particularly black women, like staking their claim to that part
of the industry, it's like inspiring and just hopefully own
me opens more doors.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
And it's like I think oftentimes, like I think about
this sometimes of fashion, but it's like sometimes I can't
have someone make the exact thing that's in my head,
that's so true to me, that's so delisa, And so
I think that's the thing about a lot of these artists.
(37:48):
I'm thinking of people like Pink Pantherists, Griff and even
like Tiana Taylor and how she is expanding her definition
of being like a director and architect of style and
and presentation. It's like, we get to be the drivers
of our story and we get to not have to
relay it to someone else and hope that they can
translate it in the way that feels true to us.
(38:10):
It's like we have the reins now. And I think
before a lot of musical artists they were maybe fit
into other people's molds or muses for other people's expression,
or you'll see them do one thing and then twenty
years later they're doing something completely different because they finally
have the autonomy. And I think what is amazing about
(38:32):
seeing a lot of these younger artists take those matters
into their own hands, have their bedroom be their freedom
and their refuge, and use these machines that we have
here to help them tell their stories so they can
understand themselves a little bit more. I think it is
you said that brave. I love that it is so
(38:55):
brave to teach yourself something new, to fall in love
with things so much that you learn an entirely different lexicon,
to understand yourself and connect with people more. There's so
many women that I'm seeing or doing that now that
I don't think had the freedom to do that. They
weren't taken us seriously to do that before, and now
(39:17):
they are and that's what's cutting through, and that's how
they're connecting with us so strongly.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And one of the things that I'm seeing to that
point to Lisa that I love is like the rise
of women as DJs, right because I think that like
DJing is, especially in art forum, where it's like, even
if you're not making the music yourself, you're like, I
know that these songs together represent who I am or
how I want to feel, or what my community is like.
And I have this vision of what this space can
be based on the music that I'm going to play there.
(39:44):
And I don't think that there was ever a point
in my life where I've seen this many DJs. Like
it's getting more rare that I go to like a
party or a festival and there's not at least one
woman on the bill, and like so many of us
are like picking up controllers and teaching ourselves because we're
like no, like we have taste, we're innovative, right, We're
on the ball.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
We understand people.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
I think that's another thing that makes women really good DJs,
is that, like we are empathetic and we understand people
around us, and we can like follow like the vibe
in a room, and that I think is also cool
because I think that is also listeners kind of responding
to artists by saying, like, your art means so much
to me that I want to make something from it myself.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I love that you said that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, I got an instant smile because I'm thinking about
like the DJs I see mostly on TikTok right where
they're spinning things, and I'm like, I would have never
thought to put that together with one. I'm not a DJ,
so of course I would not have, right, But I
do think like the women DJs, it's a whole different
vibe and it like it is very much like reading
the room and like intuitting.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
What people would really be bou by via the next all.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Yeah, I think black women in particular, you know, for
better or worse, Like we're grown up and made to
think about everybody and sometimes ourselves last, and that can
be like a really difficult place to be, you know,
we see that in our moms and our aunts, like
like the way that that can be a burden. But
I think that like that level of humanity and connection
and intuition, like you said, doctor Joy, like, I think
that those are really really beautiful skills to have.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
More from our conversation after the break, So continuing this
like bravery conversation, I love that that has kind of
become a theme.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
We also see people like Janelle Monet kind of moving
into this space of ownership in terms of their own labels,
And what do you think that that means for like
the continuation of like freedom and the different choices that
artists are able to make, right, Like, we've heard so
many horror stories of artists having these like very oppressive deals,
and so it does feel like women are becoming more
(41:45):
label owners really unlock something different.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Manco Art, I want to let you take this because
I know, like your cover story with Janelle was so
beautiful and I really just want to hear from you.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
I feel like we have that back connection, so I
want Yeah, I appreciate that, and it's bringing me back
to a moment.
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Oh, I think, were you.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Interviewing me for like a in house meeting at Rolling
Stone about the cover and so de Lisa and I
were coworkers, and it just made me feel so validated,
like the questions that she had, and even beforehand, I
think she sent me a message and was just like yo,
like this story meant so much to me. The story
moved me a lot, and it was a really hard
story to write because there's so much to Jenne Monet,
Like not only is she like a Grammy winning artist,
(42:26):
not only are her albums expansive and like films in
and of themselves, sometimes they are films like Dirty Computer,
But she is an incredible actress, right and like she
at a very very high level, and similar to Beyonce too,
also has this like encyclopedic knowledge of like music and culture.
And so it was like a big, like kind of
scary task to try to capture this person in a
(42:48):
few thousand words. And you know, they were so kind
as to like let me into their space, meet their
very close friends have a game night with them.
Speaker 5 (42:55):
At one point Janelle.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
Had to move the group like it was just like
speaking of bravery, and they were very nervous, you know,
Janelle uses side pronouns like they were very very nervous
about it, and they had to like run into the
bathroom and kind of hype themselves up before they could
come out and do it. And I think that all
of that, you know, Janelle is into, being executive, is
really challenging because one, you don't want to recreate those
(43:18):
terrible deals, You don't want to recreate those types of
environments or those structures that have hurt a limited artists.
But you also do have to be the person at
the head of the table making decisions, sometimes making hard decisions,
like Janelle when they were telling me their schedule, very
very precise, the time that's set aside for wonderland stuff,
the time that's set aside for them to heal their
(43:40):
inner child by drawing or painting or dancing, just doing
some type of art that isn't about making money or
like pushing the business forward, but just they called it
fertilizing themselves. And so I think that on top of
being a creative putting the executive work. It's a big ask.
I think that there is a lot of room for
error in that space as well. But I think more
(44:01):
and more artists are having experiences and they're like, I
can make this better for the next person, and that's
really cool to see. And then I think on the
flip side, you have artists. I mean, Meghan is starting
I think a label and a production company, but first
she just got her masters, you know, like Megan is
now an independent artist, which is amazing, and she's distributing
through one of the majors, but she owns all of that.
Speaker 5 (44:22):
She owns the rights to her music.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
And I think that's another pathway where it's like maybe
I'm not like the big boss yet, but I'm the
boss of myself. And I think that that's also really important.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Thanks Lisa, I'm.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Gonna give it to you what she did with that
album and what you were able to give us. You
open the door for us, like get the window. We
were right there, we were right there with you. We're
with them, especially for that album, and how I think
it resonated with black people was really really special. And
(44:58):
I think having your words, as you know, for journalism.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
It's like the record keeping.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
It's like having yours is like the click you know
that we get to snapshot that I think is going
to be one of those time capsule moments.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
So yeah, truly shout outs to you for that.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
So when you think about the future of black women's music,
are black women in music? What is something that you
really would like to see more of?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
What I think is so beautiful about right now is
like we're seeing a lot of like people searching for
the answers through music, and I'm excited for just like
you know, the scene and the Whiz where all of
the like the they like take it off and it's
like like the brand new day. That's what I'm excited for.
I'm excited for, Like we did all the shedding, we did,
(45:46):
all the work, we did all the unearthing, and now
we just get to like dance like what k Trenada
does and how all his music videos feel like. I
want that to be extended to every Black women in
music where they can just be their most fun, sensual,
hype sexy selves and we get to see more and
(46:06):
more and more of that. I think we were already
seeing that and that's what I want. Ten times, I
could never get enough of us feeling good in our
bodies and being free to express that we already have it.
It's definitely not something that we're lacking. I don't really
think there's anything that we are lacking. But if I
could say something that I want more of, it is
(46:28):
that it is exhilaration, is celebration, is joy. I'm calling
that forth in my life. So I need the music
to boop and to keep going with that and to
continue to soundtrack this next journey and phase of life.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
Yeah, I am thinking about the conversation that we were
having about black women like Solange, like Leyla, like Beyonce
that are like producers and have this also like cause
it's like the technical ability, right, Like the technical ability
that it takes to.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Make music that is so care free, to make music.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
That like feels the way that you want other people
to feel like. I'm really interested in having more conversations
about that highly specialized skill that a lot of black
women possess and seeing more black women earning credit as producers,
not just like as far as like their discography is
being built out, but like being talked about, not just
as artists and singers or icons even, but like as
(47:22):
producers and like really technically able people.
Speaker 5 (47:25):
I'm really excited for that.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
I'm just like, I feel like black women, like we
balance like this joy and the seriousness, right, and I
would love to see that, Like I would love to
see black women like really really taken even more seriously
as artisans.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Okay, So, Michael bur what is your official anthem for
summer twenty twenty five?
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Okay, honestly, I'm so glad I get to talk about
this because it's a song that a friend made that
I don't think he's released yet. But he's a rapper.
His name is crash Press. As a rapper, he was
a music journalist, so I think it's really cool that
he transition and from someone who, like, as an artist,
was telling other artist stories to like focusing on their
(48:05):
own craft. But he put a clip of this song
and de Lisa, I think you would love it. He
put a clip of the song on his Instagram story
last week and it kind of reminded me of Cha
Cha by Drama.
Speaker 5 (48:14):
You remember that summer when Cha Cha came out?
Speaker 4 (48:16):
Ooh, that was like summer twenty fourteen fifteen, Like it
has that joy. The song is called Samba, so it
has like that kind of like dance feel, but he's
rapping really really well over it, and it's like, that's
what I want my summer to feel like. I want
my summer to feel like dance and fun. And also
that skill that ability like impressed me well. After I
DMed him on Instagram and I was like, this song
(48:37):
is incredible. He sent me the whole thing and I
was like, put it out because I have to hear
this everywhere I go this summer.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Okay to Lisa, what about you with your summer twenty
twenty five A at them?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Make sure you send that to me.
Speaker 5 (48:49):
Yes, I'll introduce y'all. Actually y'all should know each other.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Let's planning link.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
And so hard to answer that question because I'm constantly
listening to so many different genres that like, my brain
is going blank. But the one thing that I think
that I like sometimes I wake up in the morning
is Rachel Chinneriery dumb bitch juice. That's just like being
stuck in my head. And I think her whole project
(49:18):
really brings me back to and like a younger me
that was confused but still like fun, and I think
I'm kind of there now, like I still feel like
in that kind of awkwardness of being in my young twenties,
even though I'm fully turning thirty this year. That's why
I'm kind of like going back to these bibles of
(49:39):
this time in your young twenties. So dumb Bitch Juice
Rachel Chinnerery is kind of the one that's that'll be
played in every part day. Beach Day reminds me just
like have fun and like.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Just be free.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
And I think that's the one that keeps coming back
from me as the sun is coming out finally in.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
New York exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Okay, So at least another question for you, what is
your go to song when you need a mood boost
go to song?
Speaker 2 (50:10):
So it is from the.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Oh, it is Patti LaBelle, and it is Turn It
Up from Beverly Hills.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Cop.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Yes, when I tell you, it just like does something
and I feel so free and it's like it's just
so like it's so eighties. It's so eighties and free
and fun. And her voice texture is just one of
my favorites. So anytime I'm like down, I just put
(50:46):
that on and I just act like I'm back in
the day, like in a movie with my girls out.
So yeah, that's really real. Honestly, got Trueth, that's the song.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
What about You Moncopher, I'm Coming Out by Diana Roy
And so my first introduction to that song was a
kid write the momentey More Problem sample, So I didn't
even know this whole song until I was much older.
But I was driving down Bakehead the other day and
I was playing this song out of my car windows
because I just really needed a boost.
Speaker 5 (51:16):
It was another day where the sun was finally coming out.
I was on my way somewhere. I just wanted to
feel good.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
And I turned around and me and this black woman
driving next to me were both singing along to the
song that I was playing out of the car, and
it felt so good, and we were just like laughing
with each other, and there was a little bit of
while we were driving, kind of driving the same pace,
and I just liked how bright and confident and renewed
that song makes me feel.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
I love this this throwback that we're having for these
move boosting songs, and I feel like that'll call some
people to go digging into this catalogs and maybe it's
for some new gyms than they had not seen.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
So thank y'all for it.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
So this has been so much fun. I have loved
talking with both of you. Delis to let us know
where we can stay connected with you, any websites or
social media challenge you to she here.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I am on Instagram. I am not really on Twitter,
but I do have one of those dealsa Marie underscore.
You can also check out my website that's www dot
Dealsashannon dot com. And this has been so great, Like truly,
I think the sun came out to bring this conversation.
So I'm very thankful today.
Speaker 4 (52:21):
Yeah, thank you for Then what about you, Makapear, I
am at Monkapar m A n K A p r
R on everything so Instagram. I am on Twitter still unfortunately,
and I'm building TikTok. I'm really interested in taking the
work that I'm doing as a journalist and like translating
it there, so please follow me there and like go
on this journey with me. And then my website is
(52:44):
Mancaper dot com as.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Well, beautiful be sure to include all of those in
our show notes. Thank y'all for spending some time with
me today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (52:51):
Thanks for having us cool.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I'm so glad that Lisa and mankapra me for today's episode,
and I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as
I did to learn more about them and the things
we discussed today. Be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four one seven,
and don't forget to text two of your girls right
now and tell them to check out the episode. Did
you know that you can leave us a voicemail with
(53:19):
your questions and suggestions for the podcast. If you have
movies or books you like us to review, or even
have thoughts about topics you like us to discuss, drop
us a voice memo at memo dot fm slash Therapy
for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might cover it on the podcast. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
(53:39):
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory, and
don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for
Black Girls or join us over in our Patreon community
at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and more. We can't wait to
see you inside. This episode was produced by at least Ellens,
(54:00):
Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 4 (54:15):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four seventeen of Therapy for
Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
word from our sponsors. We couldn't let this month go
by without having a conversation about one of my favorite things. Music.
(01:22):
While we're only halfway through the year, there have already
been so many major moments, from iconic performances to albums
that push past genre limitations. These culturally defining moments have
all been sparked by artists we love, and we'd be
remiss not to celebrate the ongoing impact of black artists
in music. In honor of Black Music Month. I'm joined
(01:44):
by Makofarkante, staff writer at Rolling Stone, and Alisa Shannon,
short form content director at Billboard. Together we unpack some
of the standout moments of twenty twenty five so far,
talk about the artists who are redefining the rule, and
reflect on what black music continues to teach us about innovation, identity,
(02:05):
and joy. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TVG in session, or join us over in our Patreon community.
Just talk more in depth about the episode, you can
join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Here's our conversation. Well, thank you both so much for
(02:38):
joining me today. I'm very excited. I always enjoy our
Black Music Month conversations, so I would love for you
both to introduce yourselves and let the audience know who
you are.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
We will start with you. De Lisa.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Hi, everybody, My name is Delisa Shannon. I am a
video producer, host, content creator out in Brooklyn, New York
from his Soon originally and yeah that's me.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
What about you?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Manca Fair?
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Hi, am Manca Percanti I'm a staff writer at Rolling Stone,
where I mostly cover Black music, hip hop, R and B.
I love covering African pop music, and sometimes I dip
into like politics and comedy too.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So I always love when we have journalists on the
conversation because I feel like y'all are having a moment
and both some really great ways and maybe some not
so exciting ways. I think it's a great conversation, especially
for people who are interested in pursuing journalism, whether they're
in school now.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Or in the future.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And so can you start, maybe Macha Purbat's telling us
when you fell in love with music and what lets
you know you wanted to pursue music journalism.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Man.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
I got a boombox as a gift for my fifth
birthday and I had it ontol like graduated college. It
was like one of those CD tape radio combination players.
And I grew up as an only child, so I
spend a lot of time by myself listening to music,
and that evolved into like building a CD collection and
into watching a lot of music documentaries and historical accounts
(04:04):
archival accounts on like VH one, MTVBT. I really went
to school interested in doing more political journalism, and then
I was more interested in doing more sort of like
social justice work, like working in international development. My parents
are from Sierra Leone, and I was always really aware
of the difference in lives that me and my cousins
who are still on the continent lived. But luckily, while
(04:27):
I was kind of figuring out my way, Melissa Harris
Perry started teaching at my university and at the time,
she had this amazing show on MSNBC where she was
pulling all of my interests into one. You know, she's
a political scientist by training, but she's talking about Beyonce
and pop culture and why the things that we listen
to and engage with for fun matter and the impact
(04:48):
that they have on our day to day lives. And
so she took me under her wing as a mentor
and opened up a lot of opportunities for me to
also do similar work. One of my first professional writing
experiences was about Lemonade. I was a senior in college
and she had asked me to write about it for
Elle And there were all these different socio political elements
that my friends and I who she asked to write
(05:08):
with her, were pulling out of it, and I was like, Oh,
I can do something that I find like fun and
meaningful at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
In music, journalism love it.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
We always love a good nerd Land reference around here,
so I always stick scited to hear that amazing what
about you, de Lisa.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
So my first introduction to what music and the power
of it can be. I used to be a dancer,
so I was exposed at a very young age just
so many different types of music. I was classically trained,
so there were super indie records that like I didn't
even know about that my life is just like exposed to.
(05:46):
And then there's also like super pop and all these
different things. And I realized how music and movement directly
connected to my body and how so much of my
processing of like everything that I was experiencing as a
young girl growing up in the suburbs of Houston, I
got to express through music and through movement. So that's
(06:07):
when I first fell in love with music. And then
I went to college for journalism, and at the time
I was obsessed with Quinta Brunson because she was at
BuzzFeed in LA and she was doing all these things
of pulling in pop culture and reflecting how our stories
(06:27):
are powerful even in the simple moments. I think she
had a really interesting perspective and so I was like,
I'm going to be Quintin Brunson. So I came to
New York and I worked at Busfeed, and I remember,
like my senior year of college, one of my journalism
professors was like, what are you trying to do? Like
he didn't really understand, and he was like, you need
(06:49):
to be serious, you need to like think about this
world seriously. And I was like, well, I seriously love
music and I seriously love storytelling. That's the only thing
I know. So I'm happy to say years later, we're
here and we're doing things. Shout out to Robert Jensen
for putting some fire under me. But yeah, I remember
working like a really boring desk job in New York,
(07:10):
and I felt the power again of how important music
was to me being in New York seeing all these
artists find their way through music and how it was happening.
And I saw this company genius who was fought lighting
people like Billie Eilish and Doja Cat but also like
Ogeez like with Khalifa, and I was just like, I
(07:31):
need to be a part of that it was the
only thing that I knew that was true. Again, it
brought me back to that time of being a dancer.
It brought me back to that time where I was
questioned by that journalism professor like get serious, and I
was like, okay, well, I seriously love.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
This, and so I've been in music ever since. I
love that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So both so very different stories that would brought you here,
but both doing incredible work. So what three words would
you use to describe the current musical.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Landscape that's big? Malcofreddy to take this one first.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Yeah, I'm trying to think.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
The first word that I'm thinking is I'm thinking of
a word that's like the opposite of monocultural. Like I
think that when we were growing up, like there were
these big singular stars that like all of us rallied
around Beyonce, Usher, Kanye West, Rihanna and like those people
are still very famous. But I think that the music
ecosystem now is so so diverse and individualized. Maybe as
(08:24):
a word that I would say, right, like, not only
do we have platforms like Spotify and Apple truly like
making you know, eclectically named playlists for what kind of
music you listened to? Throughout different portions of the day,
Right you'll get like Yogi, Hot Girls summer morning or
whatever on Spotify. But I think that also people have
found like much more niche communities as far as they're
(08:46):
listening as well. And we don't have as many of
these like mega superstars as I think we've historically had
over the past, maybe even like forty fifty years, But
there are people who mean a lot to these like
tight engaged, smaller communities of listeners and artists. So that's
my first word. I would say, maybe like individualized.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Okay, what about you de Lisa, I would.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Say, like the most simple is like exploratory. I think
monkber to what you're saying. Like before, there was like
a path and it was like you do this, you
do this, you do this, and so that's how we
kind of had our mount rushmore of R and B artists,
hip hop artists, pop artists, black specifically, because there was
(09:30):
a bit of a mold, and I feel like what
we're seeing now is people actually trying to find themselves
through the craft. I think obviously that was happening before,
and there were ways that was happening on a small level,
and then once you got big, it got smaller and
smaller and more contained. But what I feel like, what
I'm seeing now is like I'm seeing so many people
(09:51):
experiment and experience things, literally going through something and then
immediately putting it into the music. And then I think
that is that intimacy that I think we have with these.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Artists right now.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I guess that would be my second word, is because
that humanity is being expressed through their music in ways
that I feel like that hasn't happened in the past
and hasn't been celebrated for in the past. On a
grand scale, I feel like it's more common to see
someone do a pop album and then do a rock
infused album and then do something like super boombab, like
(10:27):
dog like hip hop and rap and like really to
the source, and they could do something completely different the
next day. And as a fan, I'm excited because I
get to see this person figure themselves out, and I
think that's so special. I feel like that's not something
that we had to look up to when I was
younger listening to music.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
For sure, that realise that also makes me think of
how global music has gotten And I think that would
be my second word because I think that it's not
only exploratory, like from the artist's standpoint, but from the
listener's standpoint. People are so open minded where there's so
many people willing to listen to music and languages they
don't speak or understand, to like travel sonically in their listening,
(11:08):
and that also, like I've seen that turn into like
actual physical traveling. Right. Like I was in Nigeria for
the first time this December, and everybody was saying, We've
never seen this many people in the streets. The traffic
is usually bad in Christmas time, but it's never been
this bad. And it kind of feels like the heightened
travel and tourism to leg Us in December is also
fueled by this heightened presence globally of like afrobeats and
(11:31):
African culture and legos being the center. And so I think,
especially as like a daughter of African immigrants growing up
in African culture, it's been such a blessing to really connect,
especially with other Black folks throughout the diaspora, Black American folks,
Black Latin folks. It's been really really cool to see
us all connect and see what like the origins of
our music have in common, and like what that has
(11:51):
built up to now in other places.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, I love these words that y'all have chose, because
I think that it does feel like there is a
real kind of innovation happening right and people being very experimental,
Like you mentioned Delisa in the work that they're doing
with music. How do you feel like listeners are responding
to the ways that black women specifically are being innovative
and reclaiming genres in a lot of ways in their
music right now.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Oh, it's up.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
It is so up, And I think it's like it's
beautiful for you, said Monkoper, like monocultural. It's like it's
not that, it's the exact opposite of that. And I
think for the first time, it's like looking at celebrity
or artistry, and for the first time for me, it
(12:37):
feels like it's like a prism of light, Like I
can see so many different reflections of myself in different
phases of my life. And that's what's so, so so
special about what we're getting to see with black women
specifically in all types of genres. I can wake up
in the morning and be like, I want to listen
to Alameda. I will listen to Rachel cheririy. I want
(13:00):
to listen to Doci, I want to listen.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
To Flo Millie.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Those are four completely different artists. And the fact that
I can I can go and find exactly what is
a reflection of me and where I am.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I think that's so special.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
How every day I can have a different mood, my
expression of like how I dress can match with a
different artist too. Like it's so vast what I feel like,
what we're getting to see and witness being produced from
Black women. That's like, yeah, it really is just up
for us, and it's not stopping. It's only getting more
amplified and more diverse and more free.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Really, yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Like I think about how things that maybe you might
have seen as like contradictory, right, Like you might like
Leon Lahavis and you might like Sexy Red, and you
might feel I think there's like a version of us
in the past that might feel like you can't be
fans of like women that are so different at the
same time. But to your point, De Lisa, I think
that we are seeing little bits of ourselves and so
many different types of women, And I think that there's
(14:04):
just been like a mold that's been able to be
broken about what a black woman artist has to sound like,
what she can do, where she can go. And that's
been really like a really cool and inspiring moment to
live in as a listener and as a journalist.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yan I want to stay with you for a second
Minchael Burber, because you write the maiden Africa column for
a Rolling Stone, and so I do feel like, as
you've talked about African artists are having, it feels like
a continued moment and just are on the rise. What
role do you feel like people like Tams and Uncle
Woffle are playing in terms of like opening the door
for future generations of African women musicians.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Man, I love thinking about Thames, especially because I find
her story so so inspiring because Thames she started out
producing her own music because she was so interested. She
grew up listening to like Low Wayne and Destiny's Child
and like of course, like you know, the African pop
music that was popular where she grew up and throughout
the diaspora. But she wanted to do that and more.
(14:58):
And then when she was starting her career, she couldn't
find people who were willing to take her sound in
all the different directions that she wanted to take it,
so she had to learn how to make it herself.
And I think that, you know, speaking of genre and
like speaking of boxes, I think that that on a
smaller level happens to like artists from especially West Africa,
Like they all get lumped into like afrobeats, when people
(15:18):
are making R and B, people are doing rap, people
are making rock, like, people are doing all types of
things and often you know, weaving in sort of like
traditional percussion patterns or traditional instrumentation into it, but also
sometimes they're not. And I think Thames is one of
the first people from that scene. She even like is
thought of as part of a scene called Alte, which
have artists like Amare Santi who were doing really experimental
(15:41):
like pop music out of Nigeria and Ghana primarily, and
she really took that globally and that resonated with so
many different people. Think about how many videos you've seen
of like Black Girls on vacation with Free Mind playing
in the background, right. I think that she's really become
someone we can all kind of be drawn to.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
And like see ourselves.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
And even though she grew up a world away from
those of us who grew up in the US or London.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So is there a moment so far this year in
music that has made a lasting impression on either of you?
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Ooh yeah, Doci's Grammy win de Lisa? Is that what
you were gonna say?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I was like, the first thing that popped up was
the Tom Brown look her and like the undies and
everybody just dancing around her.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
That was the first image that popped up.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
Yeah. Yeah, because it's like, not only did she make
history as like the third woman ever to win Rap
Album of the Year, but then she performed and just
set it on fire and showed exactly why she deserved
that Grammy, her very first Grammy. And I think there
are a lot of us who are like cheering and
rooting for Doci for a couple of years before this moment,
(16:48):
but it's like everybody got to see what we've seen
in that night. It's really been incredible to watch this
like black girl who is so vocal about being a
black girl, so vocal about being dark skin, so vocal
about being queer, vocal about being from Florida's a vocal
about her community and also not fitting in there, like
putting Tampa where she grew up on her back and
also saying like I didn't fit in.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
I was really out of.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
The box for the people that I was around, but
I still love them and they're a part of me
and also someone you know. I think it'll be nice
to see doc if she can continue to be as
vulnerable as she's been, because inevitably, with that kind of
spotlight on you, you will make mistakes. And I think
that it's important, you know, as far as like us
seeing the whole person.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Now our lives are so thirty.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Sixty with like social and the way that we interact
with each other online. I think she's going to need
like a lot of support, but I hope she feels
the freedom to really just be who she is whatever
whatever happens.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Is there anything else about that DOCI moment that she
would add to Lisa that has made that a last
thing impression for you?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I have so much pride in Doci, and like I
personally haven't felt this much like personal connection to an
artist maybe like ever. I think that I appreciate artists
for what they do, but I think her story of
doing the mold right, of doing the pop thing, of
(18:05):
doing the lane that she was supposed to and then
feeling like this, like this tension of like this isn't me,
and then being able to strip all of that away
and put her mind to this Alligator Bites Never Heel
mixtape project and then it changing her life. That story
for me and my life is like that is the
(18:28):
motivation that I often come back to and why it
was so important to see her on that stage, Like
you said, Machberg, she gets that win and then she
shows us exactly why and exactly who she is.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And I don't know, I think it's.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
A true testament to you know what you're talking about,
that vulnerability. I think she's kind of I wouldn't say
mastered it, but I think she's getting familiar with that
practice of fracture and rebuild and self and I think
that having that right now for us black women to
see is so it's so important to me because it's
(19:09):
in the music, it's everywhere. It's in the like high
hats that she's using, it's in the references to her
home and feeling like she doesn't belong, and then the
dreamlike dreamscapes in La and like where she's going towards,
Like all of that was put into one project and
so then to be able to see everybody else be like,
(19:32):
who the hell is this? If they didn't know, now
they do know. I had people texting me like your
girls up, we up. I'm like, yes, We're so up.
Like I think it's like what she is doing, especially
for darker skin black women. I think it is top
tier for me, and I'm so happy that that's where
we started. You started the year with her, and I
(19:53):
think she's going to continue to ride this momentum because
she has a very solid foundation of being grounded, and
I think that's what's so important for me to also see,
is like she did the work to put the roots
and now we're getting to see this through.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
More from our conversation after the break. I want to
go back to something you say in Malka Her because
you mentioned like the role social media please, and I
think that this is a big one, right, like because
you know, earlier you mentioned the intimacy, and it feels
(20:32):
like there is a part of like getting to know
artists a little bit on social that does maybe add
to the music value. But I also feel like there
is this other side that you kind of mentioned Machapear
around the criticism and you know, people can be very harsh.
And so what role do you feel like social media
is playing with the music industry right now, specifically as
it impacts black women artists.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Man, my mind went to Doja Cat first. I think
there are so many different relationships that like black women
have had with social media. Like you have people who
are really, I think reserved, Like I think Thames's social
media personality is really reserved, Like they're not always the
most polished photos. But she's not having a lot of conversations.
I remember one time people assumed that the imagery and
(21:16):
the music video for her song Me and You was
alluding to eurob a deity, and she was like, no,
this is about my relationship with Jesus Christ actually, But
like she doesn't really pop into like correct record or
respond to criticism online that much. But like Dojakat is
like an artist of the internet, right, Like she grew
up in online communities that, like her music started populating
(21:40):
and tending getting popular on SoundCloud when that was like
a platform that a lot of different people were able
to kind of like build a life and career. And
she was really out there, really polarizing, and we've seen
her dip in and out of the online space, and
so I think it's like a double sided opportunity with
the social media is like you really get to be
whoever you want, but you get to hear what everybody
(22:01):
thinks about it. And I think that black women in
particular that can be subjected to so many particular types
of criticism, right, whether it's like too aggressive, too sexual,
all kinds of things that kind of go back to,
like you know, age old stereotypes that can make it
particularly a harsh environment. But I think it's really interesting
to see how different people have decided who they're going
(22:22):
to be, where, when and why.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, I see that a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
My role at Billboard is short form content director, right,
and short form content is such a no one has
a real definition for it right now, but it's a
lot of those bite sized moments of connecting with artists
and audience that's like whittled down, that's the definition. So
social media something that I often find even with myself
(22:51):
as a creator of this content, is like this is
now a part of the job. Before social media was
just a place to connect and now it's becoming well,
now we have thirty minutes before you go on stage
that you once took for yourself, but now you've got
to turn it on and be back to that person
that we want.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
You to be.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
And I am very aware of black women in that
space because I can see the work that we're both doing.
Like a perfect example of this is like Coco Jones.
It was like a breath of fresh air being around
her and creating content with her because I felt like
she had boundaries that were safe and healthy for her,
(23:32):
and I think she's worked really hard to figure out
what those are, because, yeah, you know what it's like
to be on the internet and not feel comfortable, but
you know you have to. And so I see that
now a lot more with black women and black women
in music making sure that they aren't being taken advantage of.
It's like, if you get five minutes, you get five minutes,
(23:53):
you get two questions. It's gonna be those two questions.
I'm gonna give it to you. I know what my
job is because I respect my job and I respect
this craft, and I respect the audience who is going
to be on the other side of this and the
opportunity that they have to connect with me. But I
won't overextend. I won't go across my boundaries, and that's
been really inspiring for me as I navigate this career
(24:15):
in this thing called social media and knowing how much
more of it is a part and not an accessory.
It's woven in viral moments are baked into a press
tour or sought out for a press tour to make
sure that that person can get butts and seats for
a tour, and because of that, we have a different
(24:36):
relationship to it. So the very interesting thing that I
think about constantly and wanting to respect everyone's time because
I know social media and the Internet isn't a place anymore.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
We exist in.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It, and I want to create and respect boundaries that
respect the artistry that I respect.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Yeah, DEI, So that makes me think about just how
brave black women have to be to be like not
just like public facing people period, but public facing people
in the Internet age and the social media age. Like
I was thinking about the interview that Chloe Bailey did.
Her and her sister have gone through very very difficult things,
very very publicly, very much charged by social media, right
like looking at like the unfortunate circumstances of Hallie's relationship
(25:18):
with the father of her child and him sicking according
to her and her legal filings, like secking his audience
on her that he has as like a twitch star whatever,
there is like conflict in their relationship. And I remember
Chloe Howie's sister is saying in an interview on The
Breakfast Club after this December, she was a topic of
conversation on social media because it seemed as though she
(25:39):
was spending a lot of intimate time with burna boy,
and one of the hosts was just like, you don't
have to talk about this or something to that extent,
and she was like, but I do understand that, Like
I'm a public person and I signed up to make
music and make public art, and I do understand that
this is a part of it. So this is what
I am willing to say to defend myself, to correct
the record, but everything else is out of my hands.
(26:00):
And I thought that was like really really sweet and
mature and like far more than we really can ask
of her, but super responsible as an artist and a
professional to say, like, what y'all do with my life
is what y'all do, and what I'm going to give
you is what I'm going to give you.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So I don't feel like we can have a conversation
about black music this year in particular without thinking about
as we've already talked about, like the genre, exploring and
kind of reclaiming genres, without talking about old Renaissance and
Cowboy Corder and Denisa, I would love to hear from you,
specifically as a Texas person, what do you feel like
(26:34):
Cowboy Carter really unlocked for black women.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I say this as like I have a little cowboy
boot right there, and I have a whole closet full
of Cowboy parent I'm just glad that we're here, okay,
cause I've been waiting.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I think what I have said a lot in my
life coming from Texas to New York and expressing that
relationship to music with people, black country music, black folk music,
that is the bedrock of everything that we are like
as people. It's one of the most American quote unquote
(27:12):
things that we have. Is this thing that black people
have created for freedom, for connection, community, for elation. It
is the truest thing. And so I think when people
first were like, Okay, we got a country album and
there's parts of it that are a little kitchy, right, It's
like the finger guns and the like this that right, Like, yes,
(27:36):
there are some things that are really all the knows,
I will say that, But when you press play on
that album and you hear American Requiem and you hear
the fullness of the voice, that production isn't by happenstance, right,
It's not to make a good, nice song like that
(27:56):
was the introduction of what Beyonce's reimagination of where she's from.
Like I get chills even thinking about it, because the
way the track is produced it's so powerful, and then
this beautiful story is told so many different fibers and
(28:18):
textures of black country, black rock, black Americana. It's like
I think it's you know, everyone's coming to the tour
and they've got there, they've got the outfits on. But
again it's like when she's standing there and.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
She's singing these songs that are so.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Natural and organic, like you can't not help but get
emotional thinking about it. It's yeah, she did that and
then some on this album. But also I think even
the way that like Blackbird, that she's opening the door
for these other black country female artists too also feel
(29:00):
connected to this thing in this way and introduce them
to people who they create distance from country because of
the whiteness, because of the racism.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It's truly truly special.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
I think that one of the things that has always
been true for Beyonce is every project I think is
better than the last in some way.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
And I don't know if, like if it.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Is from her being able to pour so much of
her culture and how she grew up into this album,
but I think it's the most powerful she's ever sang.
I think some of these songs are the most complex,
you know that she's written and co produced or had
produced for her. And I think that the reclamation of
genre is really interesting to me because I also I'm
seeing ripples of it elsewhere. I even am seeing in
(29:44):
like in Sinners. I actually just had a conversation with
Ryan Coogler about music in that film, and he was
talking to me about seeing the parallels in the way
that artists have been pigeonholed because they are black in
music to the ways that filmmakers are pigeonholed in his industry.
Beca from the very beginning, music that was rock and roll,
that was country was just race records.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
They were like.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Music was primarily brought through catalogs, and so everything else
was segregated, and so the catalogs are segregated, and literally,
you know, like black artists could be singing or have
created the same song that a white artist is singing,
and that gets to be rock and roll, or that
gets to be country, but what the black artist is
doing has to be R and B or it has
to just be a race record. And I think that
(30:26):
watching how even in that movie, it disrupts genre because
it's not just a horror film. It's an action film,
it's a period piece, it's a romance, it's a comedy,
and so many black artists and black women in particular
are rejecting these boxes that they're put in. I think
Beyonce has done it in like one of the most
culture shifting ways this.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Year with Cowboy Carter.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
And I mean, I think that it's a difficult conversation
right to reclaim an American identity in a moment where
a lot of awful things are being done in the
name of an American identity or americanism or American patriotism.
But I think that sometimes as an African woman, I
have conversations with multi generational black American women and they'll
sometimes it'll break my heart when people will be like, Oh,
(31:08):
I don't have a culture like.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
You, And that's so far from the truth.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Like so much of what defines American culture as a
whole is actually Black American culture first. And there are
so many different elements of Black American culture, so many
different layers from even from regions, Like it varies so
much from regions to region, right, which is what we're
seeing in Cowboy Carter. And so I think it is
really beautiful for there to be like a claim stake
for being originators, for having something special and unique and
(31:35):
like communal and cultural, and the bigger question of like
what does it mean to be American is like a
complicated one.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Do you feel like we will see a lasting impact
of other Black women being able to kind of stretch
across genres from the ways that like Beyonce has opened
up and even Meg collaborating with K pop stores, Right,
you feel like this is the beginning of a lasting
impact or more of a trend kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
That's such a good question.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I love that you brought up Megan k pop because
I feel like it goes back to that, Like both
the conversation about globalization and social media, Like we are
so connected to each other and we're so aware of
what's going on in all these different corners of the world,
and we have been allowed to be and have so
many models of like expansiveness that I think that what
genres are popular, right, like what kinds of collaborations and
(32:21):
what kinds of experiments happen are reliant on trends. But
I think just like the general practice of reaching beyond
what you're told, that you can do what's popular from
just where you're from, what even you were doing earlier
in your career. To Delese's point, like, I think that
general practice of doing whatever you want, I think that's
going to stick around.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So are there any other artists that you both want
to put on the radar or who you also feel
like are doing some exciting and innovative work in terms
of stretching beyond genres.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I was gonna say Raven Lenney, I feel like being
able to see her music have this like three hundred
and sixty five day like light bulb, Like people were like,
oh wait, she's making this kind of music. I think
obviously when she first started it was think I think
it was like Sticky was her first track that like
really popped. I think it might have been on Insecure.
(33:15):
It was very R and B leaning, and then even
to where we are now has this little tinge of
folk to it and also like mainstream pop in a way.
And that's been really exciting to see how people that
I never thought would see her or reach her are
now excited and like at the forefront, begging and waiting
(33:36):
for her to shine. I think it's not about crossing
over in that way, but it has been so interesting
to see people who I never thought would be checking
for Raven Lenay. And I think that's a testament to
how she has been able to follow her intuition about
what music she creates and tell her story through it.
I mean, her most recent project is her most personal,
telling her story through love and loss. And I think
(33:59):
that that kind of intimacy that we were talking about earlier,
I think that is the thing that is helping keep
this door wide open for black women to continue to
spread their hands and spirit against different genres is because
at the end of the day, what people are searching
for is for something that's real and that's connected to something,
(34:21):
and I think that's what's allowing people to tap into
other sources, Because yeah, you may be Reco Nasty and
you may need to like jump into this like rock
like super Screamo Vibe to like tell your story, but
then you might need to slot into like some hip
hop to tell that story. And that's all on the
same project and then like hyper pop and all of that.
(34:42):
So at the end of the day, it's about that authenticity.
And I think that I feel like authenticity maybe of like, oh,
they do this thing, they have the same notes of
the genre that I need to have in order for
it to be authentically pop, authentically this. But now it's
about the story. So I think it's opening that laye
up really well for women. And I think those two
(35:03):
raven Lene and Rico Nasty are definitely definitely ones that
I I'm always checking for.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
I was willing to talk about Rico as well, because
I think her new album, especially like she's doing rock
music so well on this new album, and she always
has like you know, her first couple of projects that
like really blew her up are called sugar Trap. So
it was this really you know, poppy, saccharin like rappie thing,
(35:30):
but like this new album is like hard, like close
to metal, and I love that because like growing up,
I loved rock music like I love Paramore.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
A lot of black women right love Paramore. I loved my.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Chemical Romance, all American rejects, like all these bands that
were primarily white people, And I love that when I'm
now in the mood to hear music like that, there
are so many different black women that I can put on.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
I can put on Alameda, I can put on Rico Nassi,
I can put on Willow Willow Smith.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
I think it's also incredible, and especially even like watching
her come from like a LENI just black women rock,
like from her mom, especially like having grown up in
white environments. It's so so nice to hear this type
of music that you love, but like see someone who
reminds you of you while you're listening to it, and
like watching it.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Let's stay with Wilot for a little while, because I
feel like her and artists like Chloe, like you talked
about before in Solange, have been very vocal about like
being very involved in the behind the scenes like creative
control of their projects. How important do you think it
is for black women to really be not just the
face of the music, but also involved in those behind
the scenes thingings.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
I feel like it's one of the things that's so
impressive about like Beyonce, right like as a model is
it's like she's not just a pretty face, she's not
just a gorgeous dancer.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
It's like she is arranging the vocal. She is with
the producer.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
She's bringing this encyclopedic knowledge of black music history to
the booth, to the songwriter's table. I mean, you know,
I think that thinking about black women as producers, even
like Layla is like someone who's really interesting in that
right most Deaf's daughter, she's breaking out with her own
songs right now. She's definitely very young and like the
(37:06):
kids are tapped in with her, but she's very adamant that,
Like she's like, I'm a producer and there aren't a
lot of black women in the production space right now.
And so I think that every time we see people,
particularly black women, like staking their claim to that part
of the industry, it's like inspiring and just hopefully own
me opens more doors.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
And it's like I think oftentimes, like I think about
this sometimes of fashion, but it's like sometimes I can't
have someone make the exact thing that's in my head,
that's so true to me, that's so delisa, And so
I think that's the thing about a lot of these artists.
(37:48):
I'm thinking of people like Pink Pantherists, Griff and even
like Tiana Taylor and how she is expanding her definition
of being like a director and architect of style and
and presentation. It's like, we get to be the drivers
of our story and we get to not have to
relay it to someone else and hope that they can
translate it in the way that feels true to us.
(38:10):
It's like we have the reins now. And I think
before a lot of musical artists they were maybe fit
into other people's molds or muses for other people's expression,
or you'll see them do one thing and then twenty
years later they're doing something completely different because they finally
have the autonomy. And I think what is amazing about
(38:32):
seeing a lot of these younger artists take those matters
into their own hands, have their bedroom be their freedom
and their refuge, and use these machines that we have
here to help them tell their stories so they can
understand themselves a little bit more. I think it is
you said that brave. I love that it is so
(38:55):
brave to teach yourself something new, to fall in love
with things so much that you learn an entirely different lexicon,
to understand yourself and connect with people more. There's so
many women that I'm seeing or doing that now that
I don't think had the freedom to do that. They
weren't taken us seriously to do that before, and now
(39:17):
they are and that's what's cutting through, and that's how
they're connecting with us so strongly.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And one of the things that I'm seeing to that
point to Lisa that I love is like the rise
of women as DJs, right because I think that like
DJing is, especially in art forum, where it's like, even
if you're not making the music yourself, you're like, I
know that these songs together represent who I am or
how I want to feel, or what my community is like.
And I have this vision of what this space can
be based on the music that I'm going to play there.
(39:44):
And I don't think that there was ever a point
in my life where I've seen this many DJs. Like
it's getting more rare that I go to like a
party or a festival and there's not at least one
woman on the bill, and like so many of us
are like picking up controllers and teaching ourselves because we're
like no, like we have taste, we're innovative, right, We're
on the ball.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
We understand people.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
I think that's another thing that makes women really good DJs,
is that, like we are empathetic and we understand people
around us, and we can like follow like the vibe
in a room, and that I think is also cool
because I think that is also listeners kind of responding
to artists by saying, like, your art means so much
to me that I want to make something from it myself.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I love that you said that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, I got an instant smile because I'm thinking about
like the DJs I see mostly on TikTok right where
they're spinning things, and I'm like, I would have never
thought to put that together with one. I'm not a DJ,
so of course I would not have, right, But I
do think like the women DJs, it's a whole different
vibe and it like it is very much like reading
the room and like intuitting.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
What people would really be bou by via the next all.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Yeah, I think black women in particular, you know, for
better or worse, Like we're grown up and made to
think about everybody and sometimes ourselves last, and that can
be like a really difficult place to be, you know,
we see that in our moms and our aunts, like
like the way that that can be a burden. But
I think that like that level of humanity and connection
and intuition, like you said, doctor Joy, like, I think
that those are really really beautiful skills to have.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
More from our conversation after the break, So continuing this
like bravery conversation, I love that that has kind of
become a theme.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
We also see people like Janelle Monet kind of moving
into this space of ownership in terms of their own labels,
And what do you think that that means for like
the continuation of like freedom and the different choices that
artists are able to make, right, Like, we've heard so
many horror stories of artists having these like very oppressive deals,
and so it does feel like women are becoming more
(41:45):
label owners really unlock something different.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Manco Art, I want to let you take this because
I know, like your cover story with Janelle was so
beautiful and I really just want to hear from you.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
I feel like we have that back connection, so I
want Yeah, I appreciate that, and it's bringing me back
to a moment.
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Oh, I think, were you.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Interviewing me for like a in house meeting at Rolling
Stone about the cover and so de Lisa and I
were coworkers, and it just made me feel so validated,
like the questions that she had, and even beforehand, I
think she sent me a message and was just like yo,
like this story meant so much to me. The story
moved me a lot, and it was a really hard
story to write because there's so much to Jenne Monet,
Like not only is she like a Grammy winning artist,
(42:26):
not only are her albums expansive and like films in
and of themselves, sometimes they are films like Dirty Computer,
But she is an incredible actress, right and like she
at a very very high level, and similar to Beyonce too,
also has this like encyclopedic knowledge of like music and culture.
And so it was like a big, like kind of
scary task to try to capture this person in a
(42:48):
few thousand words. And you know, they were so kind
as to like let me into their space, meet their
very close friends have a game night with them.
Speaker 5 (42:55):
At one point Janelle.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
Had to move the group like it was just like
speaking of bravery, and they were very nervous, you know,
Janelle uses side pronouns like they were very very nervous
about it, and they had to like run into the
bathroom and kind of hype themselves up before they could
come out and do it. And I think that all
of that, you know, Janelle is into, being executive, is
really challenging because one, you don't want to recreate those
(43:18):
terrible deals, You don't want to recreate those types of
environments or those structures that have hurt a limited artists.
But you also do have to be the person at
the head of the table making decisions, sometimes making hard decisions,
like Janelle when they were telling me their schedule, very
very precise, the time that's set aside for wonderland stuff,
the time that's set aside for them to heal their
(43:40):
inner child by drawing or painting or dancing, just doing
some type of art that isn't about making money or
like pushing the business forward, but just they called it
fertilizing themselves. And so I think that on top of
being a creative putting the executive work. It's a big ask.
I think that there is a lot of room for
error in that space as well. But I think more
(44:01):
and more artists are having experiences and they're like, I
can make this better for the next person, and that's
really cool to see. And then I think on the
flip side, you have artists. I mean, Meghan is starting
I think a label and a production company, but first
she just got her masters, you know, like Megan is
now an independent artist, which is amazing, and she's distributing
through one of the majors, but she owns all of that.
Speaker 5 (44:22):
She owns the rights to her music.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
And I think that's another pathway where it's like maybe
I'm not like the big boss yet, but I'm the
boss of myself. And I think that that's also really important.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Thanks Lisa, I'm.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Gonna give it to you what she did with that
album and what you were able to give us. You
open the door for us, like get the window. We
were right there, we were right there with you. We're
with them, especially for that album, and how I think
it resonated with black people was really really special. And
(44:58):
I think having your words, as you know, for journalism.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
It's like the record keeping.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
It's like having yours is like the click you know
that we get to snapshot that I think is going
to be one of those time capsule moments.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
So yeah, truly shout outs to you for that.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
So when you think about the future of black women's music,
are black women in music? What is something that you
really would like to see more of?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
What I think is so beautiful about right now is
like we're seeing a lot of like people searching for
the answers through music, and I'm excited for just like
you know, the scene and the Whiz where all of
the like the they like take it off and it's
like like the brand new day. That's what I'm excited for.
I'm excited for, Like we did all the shedding, we did,
(45:46):
all the work, we did all the unearthing, and now
we just get to like dance like what k Trenada
does and how all his music videos feel like. I
want that to be extended to every Black women in
music where they can just be their most fun, sensual,
hype sexy selves and we get to see more and
(46:06):
more and more of that. I think we were already
seeing that and that's what I want. Ten times, I
could never get enough of us feeling good in our
bodies and being free to express that we already have it.
It's definitely not something that we're lacking. I don't really
think there's anything that we are lacking. But if I
could say something that I want more of, it is
(46:28):
that it is exhilaration, is celebration, is joy. I'm calling
that forth in my life. So I need the music
to boop and to keep going with that and to
continue to soundtrack this next journey and phase of life.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
Yeah, I am thinking about the conversation that we were
having about black women like Solange, like Leyla, like Beyonce
that are like producers and have this also like cause
it's like the technical ability, right, Like the technical ability
that it takes to.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Make music that is so care free, to make music.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
That like feels the way that you want other people
to feel like. I'm really interested in having more conversations
about that highly specialized skill that a lot of black
women possess and seeing more black women earning credit as producers,
not just like as far as like their discography is
being built out, but like being talked about, not just
as artists and singers or icons even, but like as
(47:22):
producers and like really technically able people.
Speaker 5 (47:25):
I'm really excited for that.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
I'm just like, I feel like black women, like we
balance like this joy and the seriousness, right, and I
would love to see that, Like I would love to
see black women like really really taken even more seriously
as artisans.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Okay, So, Michael bur what is your official anthem for
summer twenty twenty five?
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Okay, honestly, I'm so glad I get to talk about
this because it's a song that a friend made that
I don't think he's released yet. But he's a rapper.
His name is crash Press. As a rapper, he was
a music journalist, so I think it's really cool that
he transition and from someone who, like, as an artist,
was telling other artist stories to like focusing on their
(48:05):
own craft. But he put a clip of this song
and de Lisa, I think you would love it. He
put a clip of the song on his Instagram story
last week and it kind of reminded me of Cha
Cha by Drama.
Speaker 5 (48:14):
You remember that summer when Cha Cha came out?
Speaker 4 (48:16):
Ooh, that was like summer twenty fourteen fifteen, Like it
has that joy. The song is called Samba, so it
has like that kind of like dance feel, but he's
rapping really really well over it, and it's like, that's
what I want my summer to feel like. I want
my summer to feel like dance and fun. And also
that skill that ability like impressed me well. After I
DMed him on Instagram and I was like, this song
(48:37):
is incredible. He sent me the whole thing and I
was like, put it out because I have to hear
this everywhere I go this summer.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Okay to Lisa, what about you with your summer twenty
twenty five A at them?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Make sure you send that to me.
Speaker 5 (48:49):
Yes, I'll introduce y'all. Actually y'all should know each other.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Let's planning link.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
And so hard to answer that question because I'm constantly
listening to so many different genres that like, my brain
is going blank. But the one thing that I think
that I like sometimes I wake up in the morning
is Rachel Chinneriery dumb bitch juice. That's just like being
stuck in my head. And I think her whole project
(49:18):
really brings me back to and like a younger me
that was confused but still like fun, and I think
I'm kind of there now, like I still feel like
in that kind of awkwardness of being in my young twenties,
even though I'm fully turning thirty this year. That's why
I'm kind of like going back to these bibles of
(49:39):
this time in your young twenties. So dumb Bitch Juice
Rachel Chinnerery is kind of the one that's that'll be
played in every part day. Beach Day reminds me just
like have fun and like.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Just be free.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
And I think that's the one that keeps coming back
from me as the sun is coming out finally in.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
New York exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Okay, So at least another question for you, what is
your go to song when you need a mood boost
go to song?
Speaker 2 (50:10):
So it is from the.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Oh, it is Patti LaBelle, and it is Turn It
Up from Beverly Hills.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Cop.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Yes, when I tell you, it just like does something
and I feel so free and it's like it's just
so like it's so eighties. It's so eighties and free
and fun. And her voice texture is just one of
my favorites. So anytime I'm like down, I just put
(50:46):
that on and I just act like I'm back in
the day, like in a movie with my girls out.
So yeah, that's really real. Honestly, got Trueth, that's the song.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
What about You Moncopher, I'm Coming Out by Diana Roy
And so my first introduction to that song was a
kid write the momentey More Problem sample, So I didn't
even know this whole song until I was much older.
But I was driving down Bakehead the other day and
I was playing this song out of my car windows
because I just really needed a boost.
Speaker 5 (51:16):
It was another day where the sun was finally coming out.
I was on my way somewhere. I just wanted to
feel good.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
And I turned around and me and this black woman
driving next to me were both singing along to the
song that I was playing out of the car, and
it felt so good, and we were just like laughing
with each other, and there was a little bit of
while we were driving, kind of driving the same pace,
and I just liked how bright and confident and renewed
that song makes me feel.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
I love this this throwback that we're having for these
move boosting songs, and I feel like that'll call some
people to go digging into this catalogs and maybe it's
for some new gyms than they had not seen.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
So thank y'all for it.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
So this has been so much fun. I have loved
talking with both of you. Delis to let us know
where we can stay connected with you, any websites or
social media challenge you to she here.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I am on Instagram. I am not really on Twitter,
but I do have one of those dealsa Marie underscore.
You can also check out my website that's www dot
Dealsashannon dot com. And this has been so great, Like truly,
I think the sun came out to bring this conversation.
So I'm very thankful today.
Speaker 4 (52:21):
Yeah, thank you for Then what about you, Makapear, I
am at Monkapar m A n K A p r
R on everything so Instagram. I am on Twitter still unfortunately,
and I'm building TikTok. I'm really interested in taking the
work that I'm doing as a journalist and like translating
it there, so please follow me there and like go
on this journey with me. And then my website is
(52:44):
Mancaper dot com as.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Well, beautiful be sure to include all of those in
our show notes. Thank y'all for spending some time with
me today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (52:51):
Thanks for having us cool.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I'm so glad that Lisa and mankapra me for today's episode,
and I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as
I did to learn more about them and the things
we discussed today. Be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four one seven,
and don't forget to text two of your girls right
now and tell them to check out the episode. Did
you know that you can leave us a voicemail with
(53:19):
your questions and suggestions for the podcast. If you have
movies or books you like us to review, or even
have thoughts about topics you like us to discuss, drop
us a voice memo at memo dot fm slash Therapy
for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might cover it on the podcast. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
(53:39):
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory, and
don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for
Black Girls or join us over in our Patreon community
at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and more. We can't wait to
see you inside. This episode was produced by at least Ellens,
(54:00):
Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 4 (54:15):
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