Session 418: Navigating Flight Anxiety

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

(00:57):
for joining me for session four eighteen of the Therapy
for Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
word from our sponsors. We're stepping into summer and vacation
season is in full swing. For many, that means excitement, adventure,

(01:19):
and a pat travel itinerary. But for others, especially when
it comes to flying, it can stir up a lot
of anxiety. With everything we've seen in the news this year,
those feelings might be new or more intense than ever.
In today's episode, we're talking about how to navigate flight
anxiety so it doesn't get in the way of the
special moments and experiences that matter most to help us

(01:41):
explore ways to manage and move through anxiety. I'm excited
to welcome doctor Angela Neil Barnett into the conversation. Doctor
Neil Barnett is a professor of psychological science at Kin
State University and a leading expert in the mental health
of underserved populations, with an emphasis on anxiety and trauma
related disorder. She's also the author of Soothe Your Nerves,

(02:03):
The Black Woman's Guide to Understanding and Overcoming anxiety, panic,
and fear. After our conversation with doctor Neil Bournette, be
sure to stay tuned to hear from aviation professional and
flight attendant Isaiah Peters, who will provide some helpful tips
for tackling a fear of flying and share how his
own experience in disguise has shaped his approach to supporting

(02:24):
anxious travelers. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TPG in Session, or join us over in our Patreon
community to talk more about the episode. You can join
us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's
our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us today,

(02:48):
doctor Neil Bournett.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Oh, it's a pleasure to be here, doctor Joy Blight.
Students love you.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Oh, I'm so appreciative of that love. Tell them I
love them.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Will make their day.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
I was about to say, they will be so exciting
to hear you on the podcast. Then, So I'm excited
to chat with you because I feel like you wrote
a book about black women's anxiety when there were not
lots of books being written specifically about the ways that
mental health impacts black women. So can you tell me
a little bit about like the work that you've done
studying black women's anxiety and how it maybe looks different.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Sure, Like, I guess the way to start is to
tell you how I got into it because I had
no intention of ever being a researcher. Oh, and I
was on residency internship and it was when anxiety disorders
were a new diagnoses in the DSM. So that just

(03:47):
shokes you how long ago that was. And all the
leading researchers came to where I was going to internship
at they were talking about anxiety this and anxiety that,
but they weren't talking about anxiety in Black Americans, and
so I raised my hand. I asked about anxiety in
Black American children, and the researcher said to me, well,

(04:11):
we think black kids' fears are the same as white kids' fears,
except that black kids were more likely to be afraid
of things like rats and ruptures. And I was absolutely livid.
And my preceptor, my mentor, was a slow talking Black

(04:33):
sothern male, and he said to me, Angela, you can
either get angry or.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
You could do the research.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
And that's how I started three decades ago researching anxiety
in Black Americans. I started with kids, and then I
expanded to black men and women, and then I just
began to look at anxiety in the bl I've been

(05:01):
doing that again, as I said, for three decades. I
don't think I'm going to stop doing that because I
learned something new every year, and when it turned out wasn't.
I was doing this research, and I thought that I
was doing it for the black community. The only people
who were benefiting from what I was doing or who

(05:22):
were reading what I was doing was of course my mother,
and then all the other researchers in the field, who
at that time were white and so the work wasn't
reaching the people I was doing the research fund were
in doing the research for. And that's what led me
to write the books Though Your Nerves, The Black Woman's

(05:44):
Guide to Understanding and Overcoming Anxiety, Panic and Fear, and
people twenty years later, people still read the book, therapist,
use the book. It'soking. I'm very very excited about and
proud of that the work that I've done continues to

(06:06):
make a difference for Black women.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Mm hmm. And can you maybe hit on some of
those highlights whereas doctor niebarn and like even the thirty
plus years of work that you've done, can you say, what,
how does anxiety typically look different in Black women or
what different techniques can black women?

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Sure, one of the ways it looks different is that
for Black women anxiety the symptoms are more intense, and
we tend to suffer from anxiety longer than are white
or Hispanic or LATINX counterparts, more chronic, more intense. We

(06:43):
discovered early on that there was this form of panic
attacks called isolated sleep paralysis, which is now the dsent
it wasn't before, and isolated sleep paralysis and you're in
the South, doctor Joy, so you're born and rape in
the South, or who were raised by people who were
raised in the South. You'll hear them talking about which

(07:05):
riding or hate got a hold of me. And this
occurs in other cultures as well, but for Black folks,
what happens is is recurrentt and it tends to be
a different form or variation of a panic attack. So

(07:26):
isolated sleep paralysis is different, chronic and more intense is different.
The way we few it in the black community is different.
We are strong black women, and so to be anxious
is to be weak, and to be weak and a
black woman is an xymoron. So people mislabel or hide

(07:52):
the fact that they are anxiety and the other pieces
that they just think. People don't know what to call it.
They got issues, they got bad nerves, they're about to
lose their mind up and hear up and here you
know these kinds of things. But it's anxiety. And the
fact is is that anxiety is treatable, and that aspects

(08:15):
of the Black community, or aspects of being black and female,
places at risk higher risk for anxiety. So things like
the acting white accusation places at highest risk or social anxiety,
things like colorism and texturism places at risk for panic

(08:37):
attacks and social anxiety. So there are things that are
just natural or natural parts of the black community or
being black and female that contribute to our risk for anxiety,
and we just don't talk about it. We don't tend
to learn about those in with our studies of an

(09:00):
anxiety or when we're talking about anxiety, just stop refiud.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
So today we wanted to talk specifically about flight anxiety.
Oh so, what have you done in terms of work
and kind of researching, if anything, around black women in
flight anxiety?

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah? You know, there are about twenty five million people
who was called aerophobia or flight anxiety, and you know,
we all, I think all of us have somebody in
our family or maybe more than somebody, more than one,
somebody in our family who will not fly. I haven't
seen any data on how many about twenty five million

(09:38):
people are black women, but I would say that there
are a number of us who have this fear of flying.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
And can you talk about some of the signs and
symptoms of that, doctor Niomonnette, Like, how do we know
what's just natural kind of nervousness about flying versus something
that would, like me be meat criteria for aerophobia.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
It's preventing you from doing something that you want to do.
It's preventing you from getting on that plane and going
to someone's graduation, or going to someone's wedding, or going
to the family reunion. Then it's a problem. It is
and a phobia. It is an anxiety disorder. If we

(10:23):
have to get drunk to fly and then pass out
on the plane, that's the symptom that our anxiety is
off the charts and is in phobia territory. If we
have ever begged people to let us off the plane,
to not go this way, to drive us to this event,

(10:43):
then that's a symptom of it be out of the
norm of it being at phobic level. The good news
is that we can treat flight anxiety so that you
can fly fearlessly or you could fly less afraid.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
And what does that treatment look like.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's a combination of things. So one of the first
things is education. I mean, many of us really don't
understand how planes work, and planes are incredibly safe, and
so there's education about how planes work, what a pilot does,
where the best place to sit is all those kinds

(11:26):
of things. Also looking at okay, what are your triggers?
So what is it that makes you afraid to fly?
Can you get on a plane? Too? Many reasons why
people are afraid to fly. Being in that closed in
space for a long period of time is scary. It's scary.

(11:47):
So we're kind of claustrophobic around that, or we already
have panic attacks and we are afraid that on that
plane we are going to have a panic attack, we
are going to be unable to get out or to
get help. And one of the things that you know

(12:07):
is that if that is occurring, flight attendants are trained
to help anguishous flyers. They're trained to help people who
maybe having a panic attack on the brain, and so
it's very simple just to ask or tell the flight
attendant what is happening. So we're afraid, either were plaustrophobic,

(12:33):
or we have triggers. We've heard some story and we've
internalized that. You know, so and so on this plane
in Newark and you know Clanes in Newark fall out
of the sky. So or we took a flight and
it was it was tome or it was scary to us,

(12:54):
and we said, never getting back on I'm never getting
back on a plane. So education, okay, Understanding the triggers, okay,
learning something called cognitive behavioral therapy, which I know you've
talked about frequently on your show, exposure therapy, okay, Deep breathing,

(13:20):
grounding five four three two one. You start to feel
nervous on the long plane, you think you're going to
have a panic attack, you think you're going to die.
So you look for five things on the plane that
were gray, and four things in the plane that are blue,
and three things that are red, at two things that
are white, and one thing that is black. And as

(13:43):
you ground yourself, what you find is that anxiety dissipates
because you're staying in a moment. So those are some
of the things that you can do around flight anxisnciety
and all the airlines also have programs that you can

(14:05):
take around flight anxiety, and you can fly to the
support person. So although it is easier to avoid flying, okay,
what it means for the love going across the country,
or everybody who's waiting for you at the wedding, or

(14:28):
for that dream trip that you always always wanted to
go on. Doing those very simple things can allow you
to be with the people you want to be with
in places that you want to be and there's no

(14:49):
center shame in saying, you know, flight anxiety the center
and shame comes when you hide it and you can't be.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
There for the people you So that's word. And I'm
really glad that you brought up the Newark example, right,
because I think that that is something that is making
anxiety around flying a little more prevalent for people. Both
the situation in Newerk, but I think overall, just like
the FAA, right, and like the lack of trust in
you know, like the government right now, what do you

(15:20):
say about that? And because I think sometimes we know information,
but that doesn't necessarily mean that, like we don't have
anxiety about it, right, And I.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Said, that's where the education is so important. To understand
what exactly happened at Newark, to understand how often that happens,
to understand the other safeguards that are in place. And
it is natural after hearing about Newark, after we have
those series of plane accidents, that people would become anxious

(15:53):
and frightened to fly. That is a normal reaction, Okay.
What is not a normal reaction is to allow it
to prevent you from doing the things that you want
to do, the things that you were meant to do,
and if it's doing that shelp is available to take

(16:19):
that first step and take that first step when you're anxious.
Is they're really really hard, but you have to do so.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
You mentioned exposure therapy as something that is I feel
like one of the goal standard treatments for something like
flann anxiety. Can you talk to us more in depth
about like what exposure therapy specifically related to flying looks like?

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Okay, So there are two forms of exposure therapy. One
is gradual and the other is called flooding. And flooding
is a lot like what happened when my attivvy learned
to swim. Her cousins took her down and they threw
her in the water. Once she went down twice, and
then that she was getting ready to go down for

(17:01):
the third time, she realized that if she just went
with the flow of the river, everything would be okay.
And that's what flooding is. I mean, it's this intense
one time exposure, one time type of thing. Add again

(17:21):
she realize is that your anxiety can only go so
far and then it comes down in graduated exposure. What
happens is that we build a hierarchy. So what's the
thing you can do on a plane about flying that
gives you the least anxiety. So it might be just

(17:42):
going to the airport and standing on the tarbac or
it might be going to the gate. Okay, And then
we go from the thing that gives you the least
anxiety to the thing that gives you the highest anxiety.
And slowly but surely we work our way up this

(18:04):
hierarchy till we are doing the highest things, to be
getting on a plane and going from point A to
point B.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Now, how do you decide whether you would use flooding
versus something like gradual exposure?

Speaker 2 (18:19):
If most people do gradual exposure.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, I'm thinking, like it feels like a little traumatic
to like just get on a plane and fly across
the country.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
The people who will flood you who haven't, you know,
they say I got this, you know this one session
exposure therapy session, and so they do that. But most
people will do it gradually, and they'll combine it so
it'll be psycho education. So you're doing the exposure, but
you're also being educated about airplanes and flights and all

(18:56):
of those types of things.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
And what does this look like? You weren't it because airports,
I mean especially nowadays, are not something that you can
easily just go to to do like an env BO
kind of exposure. So when you're working with a therapist,
like how are you getting access to an airplane to
even do some of this treatment?

Speaker 2 (19:13):
There are many therapists to have virtual reality, virtual reality
virtually in the plant basically. And then again, all of
the major airlines have a fear of flying or a
anxious flyer program, so you can do their program as well,

(19:35):
so it's not that hard to have you simulate or
be part of the airport and be part of being
on a plane etcentric.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
I was not aware that the airlines had anxious flyer programs.
Can you say more about that? Are they all virtual
or do you go to the airport to participation?

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Were actually irl in real life? And remember twenty five
million people have aerophobia, so it's in their best interest.
It increases their bottom line if they can get more
people to fly. And I can also think about I
don't know about you, doctor Joy, but I was never

(20:19):
on an airplane until I was twenty two years old.
So remember there are a whole bunch of people out there,
my generation and Gen X and who just have maybe
have never been on a plane or didn't go on
a plane till later in life. Maybe my daughter was
flying at two and a half. But again, for some people,

(20:42):
airplane flying is just not a natural part of what
they have done. And so also you have to also
consider that when you think about anxiety around flying, I've
never done it. More maybe I flew when my thirties
and now I'm fifty, and you know, I haven't clothes

(21:03):
into that, So there's that unfamiliarity with flying.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, you bring up a good point in that it
is not necessarily like a natural part of a lot
of people's lives. Because I also think that that makes
it easy to avoid, right, like that you could just
drive most places, right, And so if it is something
that you're afraid of, you do have to take that
extra step to actually put yourself in proximity to the
thing that makes you anxious.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
And again I want to stress you don't have to
live here and there there are enough therapists out there
who do this where you can have that experience and
really overcome your fear of flying. And again it will
stress alcohol, benadriyll drugs. You know, you just wake up

(21:52):
and you're just hung over. It's still anxious. It really
is doing with steps so that you can become a
less anxious flier. M.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
So you mentioned the five four three two one exercise,
which is one of our favorite exercises around here. Are
there other techniques that you offer people or that people
can look into to help them maybe manage a panic attack,
because you mentioned that as one of the reasons why
people may be afraid to fry and then they're worried
they're going to have a panic attack. So what other
strategies can they use for that?

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Sure, Remember we've become anxious, we start to eat shallow
breathing okay, so we're breathing from our chest. So exercise
is we're breathing from our die aphraim okay, and learning
to do that and taking those deep reps to center ourselves.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Remember most of us have never experienced a panic attack
at its fullest. We avoid the situation, okay. So one
of the things is to remind ourselves that it's just
a panic attack and it only goes so high and
then down. We teach what they call musical cognitive restructury,

(23:07):
so that when you're starting to feel anxious, we keep
people to write their own theme song. So they take
their current favorite song and they rewrite the lyrics in
terms of being This is other things they do in between,
but they rewrite the lyrics in terms of being less
anxious or unafraid. And then we have the record their

(23:29):
theme songs so they can play it on their phoe
as they're getting ready to fly. So they're hearing the
music that they've written that pushes out that anxious, panicky
thought and replaces it with this neutral or this positive thought.

(23:50):
Now they again centers them and calms them. And as
you know, there are tons of apps out there, so
any of the mindfulness apps can be very helpful, or
our meditation apps can be very helpful. On a point.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
More from our conversation after the break, So, Dophanie Barnett,
I know I don't need to tell you that you've
already talked about like experiences with things like racism of
course make it difficult to be in lots of different

(24:31):
places for black people, and I think airplanes and airports
are no different. Can you talk about like the experiences
of racism that might impact what anxiety looks like as
it relates to flight anxiety.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
I will tell you we alder estimate the role okay,
racism in anxiety, whether we're talking about micro aggressions or
whether we're talking about over racism. One of the things
that the research says is in the altost every Black American

(25:07):
in this country deals with racism on a daily basis, okay,
And so we are in that fight wood almost on
a daily basis, and that places us at higher risk

(25:30):
for anxiety. And some of that is protective and some
of that is not protective and gets us into disorder territory.
And now you've talked about this that a positive, strong
racial identity is a protective factor for some aspects of racism.

(25:56):
But when it's daily kind though, it just kind of
chips away at you. And that's why it becomes very
important that we practice some of the things that you
talk about in your book, in terms of sister circles,
in terms of courts setting, in terms of really protecting

(26:22):
our spirits on a daily basis, because if we don't,
the anxiety is going to take And I think we
forget that there are many black women who work or
live in segregated spaces, I mean where the only black

(26:45):
person in their department or in their division, and some
of us are the only black person in the building.
And what that means and what someone might call benign
racism that they face again places you at risk. What
happens when you look around and you see nobody who

(27:09):
looks like you, and what does that mean?

Speaker 3 (27:12):
You know?

Speaker 2 (27:13):
And you're internalizing those messages about being twice as good,
to go half as far. You're internalizing those messages about
you representing the race. All those kinds of things again
increase that risk or social anxiety. And for some people

(27:34):
we're talking about generalized anxiety because they begin to worry
about everything and they what if this happens, and what
if that happens? And whatst other people think? Again, I
think in the research that we have downplayed the roles
of racism in anxiety. We don't think about it in

(27:56):
terms of depression. But it is from and center in
anxiety and wash and any black women and the kimp.
You can look around on the plane and how many
black folks are there? I'm starting to feel this way
and oh my godness, goodness, I don't see any other
black folks on the plane, So or what do I do?

(28:18):
And again, there's nothing wrong, will stand, no shame you're.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Asking, mm hmm. You know you mentioned doctor Neymarnet like
this idea of performance, and I think about I've heard
stories of people thinking that they need to dress a
particular way or present a certain way, specifically maybe if
they're sitting in like a first class seat, right, Like,
so this idea of like showing that I am supposed

(28:42):
to be here, right and so what role do you
feel like that maybe plays in shaping anxiety.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
In the first class may not help with flight anxiety
if the triggers and all those kinds of things, and
if you're worried about a plane crashing, that you want
to be sitting in the safest part of the plane,
which may or may not be first class re success,
it's over the wing that is the safest place. Again,
trying to be something you're not anywhere plane or not

(29:12):
never works out. Well, this is what I will say,
But that just adds to the anxiety that you are feeling.
It just builds up and in some cases it could
make it worse. I answer the question for.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
You, yeah, yeah, And you also mentioned Okay, I'm on
this plane and I realized there are not a lot
of other black people on the plane. What role do
you feel like representation has in terms of maybe flight
attendants and pilots in helping to manage any anxiety that
you might be feeling as a black person.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
I know you hear this too. It's people say I'm
feeling want a black therapist. I wasn't black. Okay. How
many someone who looks like you on the plane that
you reach out for help is often in itself reduces
the anxiety. Don't re hear somebody black if you know,
I know they're going to help me as opposed to

(30:05):
the pharma black woman and the nearest flight attendant is
a white male. Do I want to ask representation matters
and because our beliefs is that they will understand at
that black left you know, it's not just flight anxiety,
it's I'm a black woman with flight anxiety and what

(30:31):
all of that means, you know, both spoken and unspoken.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
I love that you offer the example of the music
kind of therapy, like rewriting the lyrics to your favorite
song is something that can help with anxiety. Are there
mantras or things that you think could be helpful for
people who are anxious flyers, that they could repeat to themselves.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Sure, I think mantras are always helpful, and again I
think if you can listen unto them, because again, when
you're anxious. On the reason we use music is because
when you're anxious, words go out the window, but you
can always remember a song. So I think with launtrast
what you want you want to have the recorded or

(31:15):
you want to use an app so that you can
hear them over and over again. So something that look
at me, I'm flying, I'm going to young, I'm flying
by bring free of fear. I cannot wait to see
doctor joy when that lay up. Something like that, you know,

(31:38):
or I am a less fearful fly. All those kinds
of things certainly make a difference, because remember what keeps
us anxious on that plane? After the physical symptoms we
good physical symptoms, right, but after they dissipate, So after

(31:59):
they go away, what keeps us anxious is our mind.
And so our thinking has to change or has to
be different, or different thoughts have to be going on,
you know, have to be going on your mind. Oh
my god, this slighty's going to crash and I do

(32:21):
my sill war the other underwear, but or look at me,
I'm flying tree.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
You know.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
So if we can change the thoughts, we reduce the anxiety.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
So you mentioned Warne that like grounding can also be
really helpful. And I know some of the things we
talk about in terms of grounding or maybe playing with
something like Plato, are there other items that maybe somebody
could pack in a little kit for themselves that might
help them to stay grounded.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Sure. One of the things that people do is they
use icy hots. What those are those? Okay? And so
the sensation of cold, because cold or hot with it.
If you start to feel anxious and then you put
that cold on you, I mean, then jolke you back
to the here and now come. It is another thing.

(33:14):
Plus it helps with your ears if your ears pop
on the plane. You've talked about play dough, something where
you can really anything where you can use your five
senses in terms of brownding works really well. I always
tell the story about the old folks in church. Do

(33:35):
you remember the old folks at church? And they would
always have a peppermint or a butter it is, and
they would always give it and if you think about
that who they could give the peppermint or the butterscotch too,
But using a peppermint or a butterscotch, a piece of
candy and using your five senses, what does it feel like,
what does it smell like, what does it taste like?

(33:57):
So use Those old folks were ahead of their time
in terms of therapy because they knew that what that
candy did was allowed that person to be ground and
ground that person. So those are other things that.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
You can use.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Mh. It sounded like you were starting to offer some
distraction strategies. Also, what role does distraction have in managing anxiety?

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Well, it could be and particularly from flight anxiety, So
you know, reading a book, doing puzzles, those kinds of
things can be helpful for flight anxiety. The other thing
I want to say, because I talked about alcohol and
drugs and bendern and all of that, but it's also
so important to stay away from caffeine if you're flying okay,

(34:46):
because caffeine increases anxiety. It increases those sensations. And so
if you're going to fly and you are a nervous
flyer or somebody who is getting a for your fear
of flying. No caffeine, coffee, coke, Pepsi, Dr Pepper, anything orange, Phanta,

(35:10):
anything with caffeine is a big no because it will
increase the anxiety and cessations.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Oh that's a very helpful, tim, Thank you for sharing that.
Are there other things like that that you think nervous
flyers should know?

Speaker 2 (35:25):
You're done alone? I mean you're not the only nervous
on the plane. Okay. Probably a quarter of the people
on the plane are a nervous flyer, So you are
not as what one what? There is nothing wrong with
you because you are a nervous flyer or because you

(35:49):
are afraid of flying. You are simply anxious, and anxiety
can be treated in the work.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
Thank you so much that, doctor Neil Bournette. Please let
us know where can we stay connected with you. What
is your website as well as any social media channels
you'd like to share?

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Okay, the website is doctor Angelinneil dot com. I am
also a professor at Kent State University, and so if
you go on the Psychological sciences website, it will take
you to my research website as well.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Perfect We'll be sure to include that in our show notes.
Thank you so much. For spending some time with us today.
I appreciate it. I really appreciated what doctor Neil Burnette
shared about navigating the emotional challenges of flying, especially her
insights on how those challenges can particularly affect our community.

(36:44):
To round out the conversation, I'm now joined by Isaiah Peters.
He began his career as a flight attendant with a
major US airline back in twenty eighteen, and today he's
focused on improving the passenger experience on a broader level.
He's sharing tips for managing flightings from an insider's perspective.
That's up next. Well, thank you so much for joining

(37:09):
us today, Isaaiya.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
Thank you for having me pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Thank you, thank you. So what drew you to a
career as a flight attendant?

Speaker 3 (37:18):
So it's fun of you asked this. I tell the
story all the time, but it was actually my mother.
I was working in corporate America, wasn't truly satisfied. And
one day I was with my mom and she said,
you know, you'd make a great flight attendant. And I'm like, no,
I wouldn't. She's like, you love to travel, you fly
all the time for work. And so one day I
came home, saw a major air alarm was hiring, and

(37:40):
I said, let's just let's just give it a try.
So I applied around Thanksgiving break that November, didn't hear
anything till February, and before I knew it, I was
going through the interview process and going a flight attendant
training and city in a jump seat. So just truly,
I tell people listening to my.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Mom as we all should, right, they know best.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
So that is the story.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
So it sounds like you were flying quite a bit
even before becoming a flight attendant. How would you describe
your relationships to flying before you were flight attendant?

Speaker 3 (38:15):
So growing up I love to travel, but just didn't
necessarily always have the means or my family just wasn't
big into traveling. Went on a couple of domestic trips
here or there. But I think as I started to
kind of gain my wings, as I say on my
own in college, I started booking trips. I started putting
my coins together and visiting friends as they graduated and

(38:37):
moved across the country, going on birthday trips, things of
that nature. And so that kind of developed my relationship
with the sky, as I like to say, And it
kind of drew me to wanting to tap into aviation
and see what's out there.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
So, you know, we've heard that flight attendant training can
be pretty intense. I feel like there was even a
reality show at some point that kind of attract people
as they were going through one attended training. So what
are the parts that are most intent and like, how
did you manage your own mental health as you were
in training?

Speaker 3 (39:10):
So yeah, absolutely, the training is intended. Say, it looks
different for different people. Airlines offer different things to their
potential candidates during training, like Frans and some airlines they
may not pay you, but they feed you very well.
Usually your housing is always covered. My particular airline they
paid us, but we still had to manage things at home.

(39:31):
A lot of people have left their jobs and devoted
a lot to this career and so that in a
sense makes it tough. But the other part of it
is just it's a lot of information and a short
amount of time. So typically your training will be anywhere
for six to eight weeks, some people slightly longer, but
six eight weeks it's usually the range that people experience

(39:52):
in training, and you're away from your home. Most people
don't live where they are training, and so it's just
it's stressful. It's just a lot of information and a
short amount of time, and for me, I just I
kind of have to lock in and just stay focused.
But also it was about balance, So I stayed in
communication with people who knew I was on this journey,

(40:13):
stayed close with a couple of people who I know
worked in the profession, who were flight attendants or even
just worked in aviation. And then my relationship with God.
So those were the key things I did to kind
of protect my mental health. Just focused on the goal,
thought about the outcome and what it would bring me
versus what I was going through at that time.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, so you said it was a lot of information,
so what I mean, of course, and goodness to everything
that you've learned, but like overall, what kinds of things
are you learning to become a flight attendant?

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Fast range of things. So I always tell people it's
all the things you kind of never want to appen.
It's what you learn in training. You touch on service,
you learn the service elements, the beverage service, even down
to international flights, the meal service and things of that nature.
But training is really the focal point of all the
things you never want to happen, So you're learning the

(41:04):
biggest thing is how to evacuate each type of aircraft
in ninety second or less, which is the FA requirement.
And depending on which airline you work for, you may
have multiple fleet types, so they're different doors with different operations,
and different jump seat locations. Jump seats are where the
flight attendant's sit, so there are different locations on the aircraft.
So you're learning where that emergency equipment is, how to

(41:27):
operate it, how to evacuate, how do I evacuate on land,
how do I evacuate on water? And then in turn
medical conditions. We always say with medical conditions, it's not
about if you'll have one, it's a matter of wind.
So how do you manage that. If someone has a seizure,
someone passes out, if someone just has extreme anxiety and

(41:48):
doesn't know how to common cope, how do you manage that.
So that's kind of the basis of what training is,
all the things that you don't want to happen and
how to be ready for them.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
That's helpful perspective because I mean, of course we think
about like flight attendants, you know, making sure that the
flight feels comfortable and like taking care of us, right,
But really your job is to if something, you know,
hits the wall, then you are the ones that are
responsible for making sure that people are even to evacuate.
Like how do you take care of emergencies basically in
the air right exactly?

Speaker 3 (42:17):
And our add to that is, like, the pilot has
a very important job, but we always learned the pilot's
job is to fly the plane. Our job as flight
attendants and professionals is to manage the cabin and what
can we do to take care of the cabin in
case of an emergency because the pilot has an extremely
important job to fly the plane. So in the end,

(42:38):
the flight attendants are safety professionals. Yes, we want to
make sure you have a clean, comfortable flight, but our
job is safety. Got it?

Speaker 1 (42:46):
Got it? So you know, this conversation really is all
about like flight anxiety. And I think in the past
year or so, when there have been more and more accidents,
you know, people's anxiety I think about flying has increased.
But I think for a lot of people one of
the things that gives them the most anxiety is turbulence.
So what can you tell us about turbulence and how
do we maybe manage our anxiety when we are experiencing turbulence.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, so turbulence, as you know, as you stated, is
one of the most common things that you experience in flight,
and you can experience no turbulence to extreme turbulence. So
the way we learned turbulence and training in the way
that I've begin to socialize it with my friends and
my family and just colleagues and people in general, is
that we know we categorize turbulence into four types, so

(43:32):
we kind of have your regular turbulence are what we
call clear air turbulence. That's just kind of your initial
climb into the sky or your initial descent. You're going
to experience probably a little shaking here or there, and
then from there you've got kind of like what we
call your standard turbulence. It's not the quite correct terminology,
but we reference it as standard turbulence, just kind of

(43:54):
your general shake. It's not anything for a cause of concern.
You usually can walk during this turbulence, but you might
need to hold on to the seats just to make
sure that you are able to move about the cabin safely.
We often suggest doing modern turbulence, that customers stay seated,
that they don't move around, but someone need sees the
bathroom where there is an emergency or that they need

(44:16):
to get to a bathroom or something of that nature.
Then usually it's fine, But then we move into severe turbulence.
So severe turbulence is more so where no one should
be up, so everyone should be seated. There's a bit
more of a shake, the pilot has control of the plane,
but it's advised that everyone remains seated, and then we've
got what we call extreme turbulence. And extreme turbulence is

(44:39):
when it's the plane is out of control essentially, which
is very rare. But when we get into extreme turbulence,
we start to think of things as like structural damage,
which is just damage to the aircraft where the pieces
of that metal have begin to separate, and then, as
you know, due to the cabin pressure is a cause
for possible danger. So that's kind of the breakdown of

(45:01):
how we categorize turbulence.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
And what is the flight attendant's kind of response across
the varieties of turbulence, Because if everybody else is supposed
to be seated, y'all are supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
Seated as well, right right, yeah, I think some people
forget that we're humans too. So I've had quite a
few colleagues who have, unfortunately have been injured, and it's
usually due to some form of turbulence. But our response
typically is to one make a general announcement. So usually
when you hit that turbulence, if the seatbelt sign is off,

(45:32):
the captain or the first officer in the flight deck
will make a simple announcement. Usually they say seat belts please,
that's it so and that seatbelt sign will come on,
and so that's your indication that we're the well, I'll say,
the flight attendant indication that we are likely going to
hit some rough air. He may have already communicated that
to us via interphone just where we can hear customers hearing.

(45:55):
So that's one way. The other way is he may
come on and say, hey, in fifteen to thirty minutes,
we might experience some ruff fair just i'd like everyone
to stay seated. He may even go further and say, hey,
I will also ask the crew to stay seated, and
that's kind of our indication to know to stay seated.
And he may give a timeline and say hey, for

(46:16):
about thirty minutes about forty five minutes the next hour,
we might experience some ruff fair. So usually it's usually
by that crew what we call crew communication, whether that's
captain the crew, or a captain to the entire captain
or if we begin to hear hit rughfair, the flight
attendant and may pick up the innerphone and make an
announcement even without the captain communicating anything, because everyone can

(46:39):
feel that turbulence.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, I've always been appreciative when the captain or you know,
somebody comes on and let us know that it's coming,
because I think it is more shocking when you're just like,
oh my god's what's happening right exactly?

Speaker 3 (46:53):
I mean. And there are times because we brief with
the captain beforehand, you know, we'll brief with them, he'll
kind of give us an update of this is what
the route is. And if it's a flight later in
the day, they've collected all that data from earlier flights
who have taken that same route, and so they're able
to kind of give us some contextual data of how
the flight has gone on that route throughout the day,

(47:14):
and they may say, hey, it's a smooth ride, but
whether changes. Things change, so sometimes they'll tell us it's
a smooth ride. We get out there with the carts
and then we start shaking and we're like, what's going on.
So definitely appreciate that communication. But that's one of the
biggest ways. And doctor Jordan, the other thing I'll add
is us communicating with each other. We know certain things like,
for instance, the back of the aircraft is a tabby

(47:37):
bumpier than the front portion of the aircraft. So we
also know just certain routes like whenever I'm flying over
Salt Lake City somewhere in California, anytime I hit mountains,
I can expect turbulence. So just kind of knowing some
nuances also helps with our communication. And Atlanta, in places
where there are thunderstorms we call them the thunderstorms of

(47:57):
the South or all the way up to the East coast,
we know if the weather looks bad, we're probably gonna
hit some bumps. So just also just kind of knowing
your routes, knowing some geographical things, and just using your
best judgment comes into play.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Mm hmm. That's helpful to know, so that the back
of the plane is typically a little BUMPI er so
that maybe like if you are somebody who's particularly sensitive,
you may not want to have seats all the way
in the back right, Like are there other things that
you can talk about in terms of like how to
choose the best seat for yourself if you are maybe
sensitive to turbulence or other things.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
So I would say I always advise people because I
know people experience motion sickness and this maybe I know brainer,
but I think sometimes people underestimate what they eat before flights.
Just be mindful of your alcohol intake, know yourself, know
what you should eat. One of the common things as
flight attendants we hear about is sushi, and we've experienced
We've had customers who'll eat sushi in the airport and

(48:53):
then maybe have a few alcoholic beverages, and then we
may hit some turbulence and we're either handing in the
gray bag as we call them, or where making sure
they can get to the bathroom safely so that they
can take care of their needs. Be mindful of what
you eat, Just be mindful of the weather. Just know
yourself how you feel when you fly. On the picture

(49:14):
of yourself in the best situation possible. I would say
picking your seat it's hit or missed. I would say, definitely,
the back of the aircraft is bumpier, but I wouldn't
I wouldn't say, hey, that's going to you know, necessarily
be the solution. Always got it, got it.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
So you mentioned that a part of your training is
to kind of help people who are experiencing anxiety. Now,
what are some of the things that maybe tells for
you or things that you're paying attention to as a
flight attendant about customers who might be anxious.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
So typically I try not to read in too much
because some people are just they're just observant. And I've
had some his scenarios where I thought maybe someone was
nervous and they were like, I'm fine, just looking around.
But I definitely have noticed customers who have been nervous.
I look at, you know, tapping of the feet. I
look at just kind of the wandering eyes. I look

(50:04):
at One of the typical things that they'll do is
they'll look outside the window to kind of see what's
going on, things of that nature. But the biggest thing
I'll say is that I look for the customer to
kind of make eye contact with me. I will say
that's the biggest a big thing when you hit turbulence.
Usually if you are seated somewhere like in a jump seat,
by a door or another part of the plane where

(50:27):
you're visible and not within the galley, the customer can see,
so they'll make eye contact with you. And one of
the biggest things is I'll either smile, not like hey,
this is fun or anything like that, but just kind
of say, hey, you're okay, like you know, maybe mouth
are you okay, but I'll say, doctor Jorge. One of
the biggest things is to keep a straight face. And
sometimes it's tough because, like I said, we're human too,

(50:50):
so we're experiencing what may be moderate to severe turbulence,
and you know, you kind of want to react. But
I've kind of trained myself to sometimes keep a straight
face to kind of look, make our contact with them,
not stand down with just be very direct, kind of
let them know, hey, I'm good. And then I've noticed
people will calm down, you know, because they see, well,
the flight attendant doesn't seem to be faced, you know,

(51:12):
so I guess we are okay.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Isaiah.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
This is not what I wanted to hear, because I
don't want to know that you got a poker face,
because I'm definitely am one of those people, like, if
it gets termine, I'm like, okay.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Where's the flight attendant?

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Are they looking cool? But you're saying that of course, right,
Like you are not wanting to make people more anxious,
So mostly you are going to give like a straight
face or maybe a little you know, knowing glance kind
of thing, but mostly not reacted.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yeah, it's I don't want to make it more dramatic
than it is. And not to say it's not dramatic.
I mean again, if it's severe and we're rocking all
through the sky, that's a little bit different. I'm human too,
I'm experiencing this with you, but it's it's also just
remaining calm. Maybe not a poker face the joint print.
I give you a smile or nod, but I just
want to be as calm as possible to let that

(51:57):
customer though, hey we're okay.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
M hm. So yeah, So maybe outside of kind of
like level three and four turbulence, maybe people just kind
of experiencing anxiety just because it's in anxiety provoking situations sometimes.
What kinds of things do flight attendants do to help
customers manage anxiety.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
So I think the biggest thing is, especially if you
see a customer who is experiencing, like you know, just
extreme anxiety or is busimply shaken by turbulence, it's more
so just about having that direct customer interaction, that direct contact.
So you've probably seen the new stories are seeing the
viral social media post where a flight attendant is praised

(52:35):
for going to a customer and kind of having a
direct conversation with them to assure them. So we do
a lot of that where we will go to that customer,
have a direct conversation with them, reassure them. We have
devices where we can communicate with the flight deck, so
sometimes it's saying, hey, you know, I just talked to
the captain, this is what's going on. You're going to
be okay. It's really that direct interaction that helps those

(52:58):
customers with anxiety with flying. The other things are kind
of things I just mentioned earlier. It's like when they
make that eye contact with you, just that smile or
that nod, that thumbs up, things of that nature are
kind of through techniques that flight attendants used to read
share customers. But I would say the most powerful thing
is that direct interaction to let them know that, hey,

(53:20):
you're there, you're aware, and kind of explaining the situation
so they have as much context as possible.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Now, how are you managing the demands of seeing too
customers who might be anxious versus like taking care of
the entire cabin? How do you manage that?

Speaker 3 (53:36):
So we use a thing called CRM, which is crew
resource management, and a lot of companies use this, but
in the aviation industry our profession rather particularly for fight attendants,
there are things that we kind of use within that CRM,
and one of them is crew coordination. So crew coordination is, hey,
we might divide and conquer. So there may be a

(53:58):
customer who has a gift, I'll say, or just it's
very skilled that one on one affection to kind of
come to a customer to provide that reassurance and the
rest of us will make sure everyone else is okay,
that there are no other needs. But I would say
that crew management is kind of the biggest thing. It's like,
we divide and conquer, so we'll have one person that

(54:21):
may need this attention, and usually on domestic flights you
have at least three or four flight attendants. Most flights
for so, if you've got one person or even like
a group of people who are really experiencing this anxiety,
you can kind of have two that go deal directly
with these customers to provide this one on one experience,
and then the rest of the crew the two others,

(54:41):
you know, are able to kind of manage the captain.
But it's really it's really that crew coordination that's the
biggest piece.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
More from our conversation after the break, I would imagine
this depends on the size of the plane we're on,
but how many flight attendants are typically on a flight.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
So it varies. The FA has set mandates. So we
have what we call narrowbody and we have wide body aircrafts.
So narrowbodies are your oneile aircrafts. Everybody boards through the
same door, goes down one aisle and takes their seats,
Versus you have wide bodies which have anywhere from four
to six to eight doors, and you've got dual aisles

(55:29):
and as well as the center out and so the
bigger the aircraft are, the more seats, the more flight
attendants are needed. So typically on our domestic fleets, those
narrow body aircrafts you've got anywhere from one to two
hundred customers, you've got at least four flight attendants and
those are required mandated by the FAA. And so again

(55:50):
as that seat capacity increases, you've got crews up to
seven to ten flight attendants, usually on those larger body
aircraft flights.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
Got it? Okay? Okay? So what should people know about
some of the services and resources that the major airlines
have to actually help people with flight anxiety? Anything you
can share them.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
So I persousally have never experienced this, but I know
what airports have started to institute are these sensory rooms,
and so essentially they have these rooms and airports you
can go to. I know that they're like in major
hubs like New York, probably a few in Lax, but
you can go to these sensory rooms and they kind
of relax beforehand, so they set this mood with lighting

(56:33):
and music. Some of them have snacks things of that nature.
And I've even heard or read that some of them
have like these mock up aircraft so you can kind
of sit in seats and simulate what not necessarily like
what the ride would be like, but you can kind
of like envision yourself on a flight so you sit
in these seats and you've got music playing, and you

(56:55):
may have other components that can make you feel comfortable
prior to getting on your flight. And then a lot
of airports have also instituted like religious centers, so you
know chapels or things of that nature, are prayer rooms
or things of that nature to allow customers to go
in again relax, maybe prey or meditate or things of

(57:15):
that nature prior to flight. So that's one of the
biggest things. But I think on board it really comes
down to that the flight and that crew. So it
starts with just the captain communicating if there's going to
be any weather. For instance, if you're leaving your destination
and you know the weather has been bad, or you're
driving to the airport and you see the weather is bad,

(57:36):
or your flight has been delayed and they say it's
due to weather. It's really that communication piece starting with
the captain, and then throughout chick flight experience, it's those
flight attendants coming to really cater to your need and
explain the situation. So I think those two are the
biggest things. That's why being a flight attent is a
safety it's a safety job and it's a service job.
It really has to come from the heart because you're

(57:57):
catering to people who may maybe their first flight and
maybe their hundredth flight. So just keeping that a mark
the diversity on board.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Yeah, So Isaia Yah, before we started recording, you were
saying that your family and friends often come to you
to kind of calm their own anxieties, and you tell
people like, the plane is not falling out of the sky.
So what kinds of things do you tell maybe friends
and family who may be anxious about flying themselves.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
I just kind of explain again what turbulence is. It's
their air pockets in the sky that caused by different
things and their levels to turbulence, and that safe flying
is still one of the safest methods even I know,
like you mentioned doctor joralda stories we've had previously extremely sad,

(58:42):
but it is still one of the safest methods of transportation.
And so I just try to reassure them that one,
trust your faith, trust your crew because that training is
not in banging age intent and everyone who has vetted
and gone through it is qualified, and so it's really
about trusting your crew members because again, being safety professionals

(59:04):
that's what we're put on board to do.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
So what tips do you have, Isaiah for people who
may be interested in becoming a flight attendant but maybe
struggle with flight anxiety.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
The biggest thing I tell you is to fly more,
fly more, put yourself in that environment. And I kind
of say that because when I transition to the industry,
I kind of packed my bags. I was based in
New York City, so I left where I was from,
which is Texas, moved to New York City, and I
left my car in Texas. And so it got to
a point where, obviously, given the job, I'm flying a

(59:37):
lot more, but I was on a plane more than
I was in a car, which, when I think about it,
that is kind of crazy. But I got a little
numb to the experience of flying because I did it
so much. So I think the more you do something,
the more comfortable that you feel in it. But just
through your research and as you go through training, you'll

(59:58):
know if it's something truly for you. And once you
have that educational piece of one, the experience, but also
the training, you know how things are, you know navigated.
Even when you've become a flight attendant, you learn about
other parts of the job from being a gay agent
and how they operate the doors to the ground crew
and how they operate the tanks and the baggage. So

(01:00:20):
once you have that educational piece, I think in your
own personal training and then the experience, I think that
will help people overcome the anxiety and then step into
what we call not even a job, but a lifestyle change.
It truly is a lifestyle changer. And I've been able
to touch parts of the world that I don't think
I would have been able to touch. So I think

(01:00:41):
that would be my biggest advice. Trust your training, trusted faith,
and get that experience.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, and it sounds like you know what you talked
about before, like flying certain routes, right, so maybe flying
over mountains, maybe flying longer businesses, so that you get
a feel for lots of different ways that you know
it feels to be in the air exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
I think that geographical piece is important because again you
learn those routes. And then also you mentioned let the fall,
so getting used to saying, hey, I'm going to be
over the Atlantic Ocean for the next eight nine hours,
what does that feel like? You know, you know, just
mentally how do I feel knowing I'm over a huge
body of water and going to be over that body
of water for some time. So there are different things

(01:01:21):
you can do, but I don't think it should limit anyone.
Even if you're not interested in aviation, it should limit
you from living your life, traveling, seeing new parts of
the world, seeing friends and family, and being connected.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
This was incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for spending
some time with us today.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
I see you totally. Thank you, Doctor Joey. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Thank you. I'm so glad Doctor Neilbournett and Isaiah could
join us for today's conversation, and I hope you enjoyed
it as much as I did. To learn more about
navigating the challenges of flying, be sure to check out
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com session
for eighteen, and don't forget to textas episode to two

(01:01:59):
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(01:02:21):
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This episode was produced by Elise Ellis Indichubu and Tyree Rush.

(01:02:42):
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take it
care

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Host

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

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