Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four thirty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. This week, we're celebrating
two iconic albums that have shaped the sound and soul
(01:19):
of a generation. Erica Badou's Mama's Gun and Jill Scott's
Who Is Jill Scott Words and Sounds Volume One, both
turned twenty five this year. Joining me for this nostalgic
and soul filled conversation is Tarren Finley, journalist and founder
of the Unbothered platform. Together, we explore how these albums
(01:40):
capture the essence of black womanhood, love, sensuality, and self discovery,
and why they remain powerful touchstones for healing and self
expression today. We also talk about the emotional honesty both
artists brought to their music and how their art continues
to inspire new generations to embrace softness, vulnerability, and joy.
(02:01):
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in Session, or join us over in our patreon To
talk more about the episode. You can join us at
community dot therapy for blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation.
(02:21):
Thank you so much for joining us here.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thank you for having me, Doctor Joy. Longtime listener, you
know I love the work that you do. Thank you,
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I know we talked a long time ago. I feel
like it might've been in the pandemic. You interviewed me
for a piece it It was like quite some years ago,
so it's been some time since we chatted.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, it's crazy because the pandemic was like it started
five years ago, but it feels like it's been a
lot less time than that, so it's really great to reconnect.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yes, yes, So tell the people who you are and
a little bit about your background as a music journalist.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I am Taren Finley. I am a cultural reporter. I've
been doing this for over a decade so far. I
covered a lot of music in my role as Black
Voices Editor and senior culture reporter at hof Post, especially
(03:19):
a lot in regards to R and B in retrospective
looks into hip hop. I did a lot for the
fiftieth anniversary or hip hop coverage over there, and music
specifically Black music has been such a huge through line
in my reporting because it's been such a huge through
line in my life. I'm currently writing about it for
(03:43):
my own personal substack. Let me plug that first at
Let's stayconnected dot substack dot com, Refinery twenty nine x,
Sony Cole, contraband, camp Essence, and a few other places.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, so this definitely has been It feels like you
are someone who has had your finger on the pulse
of conversations around black music, which is why we're very
excited to have this conversation with you. So we are
gathering today for a very special occasion because both Mama's
Gun and who is Jill Scott are both celebrating twenty
five years. So can you talk about the impact of
these albums and why you think they still have such
(04:20):
staying power even a quarter of a century later.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Oh my goodness, two thousand was such a year for
heavy hitting albums. Obviously, Who Is Jill Scott the Jill
Scott's debut album came out earlier that year, and then
later in November, Mama's Gone, and it just to back
up into like this kind of window and time where
(04:45):
Neil sol was having such a huge moment. We have
work from DiAngelo Blood Lauren Hill coming out in really
redefining and reshaping how we listen to this genre on
(05:08):
the radio and within quote unquote mainstream. So when we
look at I'll start with who is Jill Scott? This
is Jill Scott's debut album. We hear her bus on
the scene at that live performance with the Roots, the
iconic my name is Ji L L S C O
T T. And her making this introduction in such a soulful, sultry,
(05:38):
seductive and really just like her debut album felt almost
like honey. Not to be too cliche, but you know
she even has a song on that album called Honey
Molasses and that was such a great descriptor for not
(05:59):
only the texture of her voice in her lyrics, but
also how it was received. Right, she's talking about love,
she's talking about sex, she's talking about being desired. And
this is such a huge thing because not only is
she a black woman, but she's also plus sized. And
(06:20):
during the two thousands, we see sex being sold and
todd as a thing that is that only hyper fit,
in super skinny, conventionally attractive quote unquote, people lean into
(06:41):
the model ass all of that, and Jill is like, hey, like,
I'm fine as hell, and not only am I fine,
but I enjoy sex. My man enjoys sex with me,
and not only that, we enjoy being in love together.
And it isn't in a way that it is from
(07:04):
the male's gaze, but more so like she centers herself
in this conversation. Similarly with er Kabadu and Mama's Gun. Now,
the difference when it comes to Mama's Gun, however, is
that er Kabadu. This was her sophomore album and it
(07:24):
released to kind of tep it reviews. You know, you
had half of the critics saying that they loved it,
and you know that it was experimental, and of course
it leaned into this afro futuristic sound and narrative. And
Erica wrote this album, most of this album completely herself,
(07:46):
and then you have the other half who are like,
what is this? This isn't a badism, this is a
flop commercially, even though it so went on to sold
one million records the following year, which that numbers are
really subjective at this point, but you see Erica not
(08:08):
only censoring herself in her experience, but also breaking away
from the labels and narratives that the industry really tried
to confine her too when she released Boduism. And I
could go on and on, but I feel like these
two there's so much to say about it, and I
(08:30):
know we're gonna get get into both of these bodies
of work even more so.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, so, Teraran, you probably have a better sense of this.
But what is the actual history of how we got
to nio soul? Because there had already been like a
steady stream of R and B, but this did feel
like a departure from that in some ways. So is
there somebody who's really credited with the beginnings of the
neo soul and how do we get there.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
That's a really good question. I don't know if there's
one specific person, and if there is, then you know, listeners,
please come out and correct me and let me know.
But like I said, we had, especially in this corridor
of the nineties in early two thousands, such a breath
of artists coming out. You have DiAngelo with Voodoo, and
(09:22):
you have Blao, Raphael Sadig, so many artists who leaned
into the black sounds that we have heard from generations before,
like Billie Holliday, like in Aretha Franklin, like a Patti
LaBelle and putting again this kind of Afro futuristic yet
(09:47):
very grounded and earthy undertone in it. One really beautiful
thing about neo soul and what we really start hearing,
especially as we're turning into the new millennium, we start
hearing a lot of live instrumentation from these artists, and
not only that, but also collaboration. And it wasn't uncommon
(10:12):
to hear or see a Raphaelsa dik In di'angelo collaborating,
or a er Kabaidu in Questlove in the studio. A
lot of times there was this communal feeling of soul
(10:33):
that they came together to create that really brought out
the heart of neo soul, and I think was evident
then and even years later now as we listen to
all of these records and listen to all of these artists,
(10:53):
that that sound is so evident. And I know we'll
get into this later, but there are a lot of
artists that are sampling and trying to recreate those sounds.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Now, what do you feel like was happening in the
R and B and hip hop space that really gave
way to yozol.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Oh Wow, we were seeing subgenres come out the woodwork.
Of course, R and B itself had such a moment
in the nineties where you have these groups like Black
and Boys to Men, and you know, their sound was
(11:33):
really the sound of the decade. When you turned on
the radio, the crooners were really the ones who were
winning the airways, which was such a beautiful thing. But
it couldn't be just about not necessarily saying that these
(11:54):
artists were super one dimensional or anything. But it couldn't
just be about just sex or just love or just
you know, it had to take another step. It had
to elevate in a way, and so in a way,
these neo soul artists were the ones who came through
(12:19):
and added a bit more depth. They were the ones
who really made you think in the ones who created
in song lyrics that gave more of a heaviness and
more of a feel in humanity and was a bit
(12:41):
more accessible to everyday people. And they were very direct
in who their audience were, which was us, us as
black people. I think one thing that was really interesting
to me specifically when we talk about Erica writing Mama's
Gun was she had recently gone over to Motown for
(13:04):
the album, and Motown wanted R. Kelly and Babyface to
help her write this album, but Baidu declined, and she
said that she respected their music, but that's not the
parallel that she wanted to do, and she wanted to evolve,
She wanted to elevate, and she said that she trusts
(13:28):
her fans enough to evolve with her, and that was
a big risk, and that was such a big step,
and I think that was something that a lot of
these neo so artists were doing. They were walking to
the beat of their own drum, but still taking from
(13:49):
what we know of that like eighties, nineties R and
B in hip hop.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Sound, and you've been talking Teraren talk about there were
so many men I think that were influential in the
neils So movement, right, But it does feel like because
we're talking about Jill Scott and Eric Abaudou, but also
I think, Indiri, you've already mentioned Lauren Hill, like there
were a lot of women that were instrumental in neil So.
Can you talk about like the way that women and
(14:18):
women's presence really expanded what Neil Sol was was.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Oh my goodness, yes, absolutely. Again, when I think of
who is Sheil Scott, When I think of Mama's Gun,
even albums that Macy Gray, Indie I re Lauren Hill dropped,
these were albums in which these women are talking about love, sex, relationships, politics,
(14:50):
identity in ways that centered themselves. They were not the
they were not the side character in their own stories,
which unfortunately in a lot of R and B we
have seen, especially R and B of Yesteryear love those
(15:13):
records down. But these albums, these records felt like they
had not only an empowered voice, but also a very
self aware and self reflective voice. I even think about
Green Eyes by Erica Baidu, and that was a direct
(15:33):
song that she wrote in four parts in response to
her breakup with Andre three thousand. Of course, they had
just had their son seven as she was producing and
creating this album, And what was really interesting to me
(15:54):
is the admittance of like, yeah, I'm a little insecure
here and I'm going through it. I'm going through the
cycles of heartbreak, of breakup and of mourning this relationship,
mourning what I thought was going to be and seeing
(16:17):
that Okay, I need to move on, but I'm not
sure exactly how to do that. There's so much power
in stating that and singing that and really going in
that direction. I even think about one of my probably
like toxic favorite songs and I don't know if it's toxic,
(16:38):
but Getting in the Way by Jill Scott on who
is Jill Scott was such when I listened to it beforehand,
which is what I think is a beautiful thing about
these retrospectives. When I listened to it beforehand, it felt
like she was arguing about with this woman about like, hey,
(17:03):
don't mess with my man. When I listen to it now,
it doesn't feel like that. It feels more so, hey, girl,
I know that you have feelings for him and y'all
probably got something going on, and look, no disrespect to you,
but you're getting in the way of what I'm feeling.
She's not saying that, like, it's not the boy is mine,
(17:25):
it's you getting a way of what I'm feeling of
the love that I have for this man. And I'm
being honest with you and letting you know. And I
think that that honesty and that vulnerability and transparency is
what we see from these women. And they took the
(17:46):
genre touch such a different level that we see still
their actions, their decisions, their lyrics, and songstress are still
reverberating in music that we're listening to today. I mean,
these women are still on tour. Lauren Hill just wrapped
up a tour last year. Macy Gray, I feel like
(18:07):
she stays on tour, and of course Mama's Gun twenty
fifth anniversary tour as commenced last month, and it's just
so refreshing. It was so refreshing then as little tarn
seeing and hearing these women listening to the adults in
(18:28):
my life, because I was probably about like eight when
these albums came out. Listening to the adults in my
life embraced this music and looking up and saying, hey,
like this is what grown women listen to. Like that
is really how I view these artists back then and
today as I navigate my own troubles and heal and
(18:53):
find solutions and reasons for why life lives. These albums,
these women's voices have become the solve that continues to provide,
if not answers, relief and help me feel singe in
(19:13):
the moment.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
More from our conversation after the break, I love that
you shared like where you were in the world, because
we're having a very it feels like intergenerational conversation because
I was in my senior year in college with the album,
(19:37):
so I was in a very different place, right, So
these elbls very much feel like the soundtrack to my
young adulthood, right, like figuring out.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Who I was as a young woman.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And I love that you're saying like even years later,
like you're thinking about maybe your mom and aunties listening
to this music and still feeling like you can connect
with it now as a young woman yourself, which I
think is like just incredible that there is music that
exists across time that speaks to black womanhood and black
girlhood in ways that are so powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So, you know, you've already talked about especially how when
Jill came on the scene, it very much felt like
she was a very different picture of what we were
seeing in terms of the video vixens, and you've mentioned
kind of women being the object of affection but not
necessarily owning their own desire. Can you talk more about
how both of these albums really presented a different view
of black womanhood and kind of maybe expanded the ideas
(20:34):
about who black women were.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Oh wow, Yeah, absolutely, because both Who Is Your Scott
and Mama's Guns speak to similar things at the same
time in very different ways, like in just different avenues.
And it's so interesting like listening to them and being
able to relate to both of them in very different ways.
(20:58):
So it what I love is how much they take
command of their own desires and their own desirability, and
they weren't afraid er Kabadu and Jill Scott were not
afraid to be that and to ask for that and
(21:23):
to command that and to say yes, I would like
that in very different ways. Okay, because Jill, one thing
that I feel like we all love about Jill is
how she looks at the simplicities of life, the simplicities
of nature, and how she's able to compare certain things
(21:49):
like honey molasses or like a block party in Philly
or quarter waters or sense and it makes you feel full.
Jill has a way of helping you tap into your
sacral chakra as a woman and not being afraid to
(22:12):
lean into that. This is before the more recent movements
and activists who have come out and said, hey, women's
sexual desires are a part of women's sexual health and
we need to talk about it. They are not taboo.
And so that is such a beautiful thing to listen
(22:35):
to and to witness Sandwich in between these stories of
pain of love and to hear Jill seeing he loves
me and as a black woman like that will always
feel revolutionary. To hear a black woman claim that love
(23:02):
that their partner is bestowing upon them is so beautiful.
And then I think about Erica Baidu, where she's asking
for the same in a very different way on kiss
Me on My Neck, a song that she collaborated with
Jay Dilla for He was credited as jd on the
(23:23):
album which I think is a cute little like nugget,
because I don't know why he chose a certain name.
Maybe it was to like not distract, but I thought
that that was really cute. But yeah, I want you
to kiss me on my neck, I want you to
breathe on my neck, and that subtlety in a very
different way, I think Erica sings about it in a
(23:47):
way that feels almost spiritual and then even a different
type of love. I think about AD two thousand, in
which she is singing from the perspective of a Milo
Diallo who was gunned down by police in the most
brutal way in two thousand and for this woman to
(24:12):
sing from this slain black man's perspective and say, I
don't want y'all to build no dilapidated buildings off of
my name and name them after me, because I know
that that is a passive, cosmetic solution quote unquote to
(24:36):
this greater injustice. And both of these albums talk about
black women's love, and I think that that specific act
of her creating a D two thousand felt like such
a great metaphor for what we've seen black women time
(25:01):
and time again, and that show up in all of
the fights, especially the fight that is for the sake
in liberation and survival and love of our people. And
so I don't even know if I answer the question,
(25:22):
because I feel like I've gone in so many different directions.
But that's such a testament to the vastness of womanhood
that these two albums really speak to.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't just one thing, right Like. I
love that there's the mix of a song about being
jealous and insecure after breakup combined with an album that
has police brutality themes, right, Like, I think that it
is a representation of all the things that we are
thinking about in living and that real life testament to
what was going on for them at the time. So
(25:55):
I think in addition to the beautiful sounds and the
messages that we got from these albums, I also think
that we really saw a shift in the aesthetics of
a black womanhood after these albums. And you know, I
think kind of generally related to the Nilso movement, like
we saw like you mentioned Bado with like the head
wraps and Jill really was embracing her natural hair, Like,
(26:16):
we saw a real shift into that. Can you talk
about how the Nilso move would really change what aesthetically
it looked like to be a black woman.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I don't think that I necessarily noticed too much beforehand
the women who were wearing their hair natural, But after
Jill Scott and er Kabadu and Macy Gray and all
of these women started to become more evident for me
(26:46):
on my screen as little girl watching BET, I do
remember noticing more so women embracing their natural hair, women
wearing clothes that were and related to Black pride and
the diaspora, and the dangly earrings that weren't necessarily just
(27:10):
the bamboos and the door knockers, but also you know,
ones that were like wooden of afropicks. And it did
feel like there was a building upon of the Black
Pride movement of the sixties and seventies within this era
(27:34):
of neo So. I even think about during the Mama's
Gun promotion into it, and I don't even necessarily think
this was for promotion, because I think a lot of
artists do a lot of stunts for promotion these days,
but more so just because she wanted to everybody new
cut her hair off because she wanted to a change,
(27:58):
and she wanted to embrace her bald head, and at
one of the stops for Mama's Gun Tour, she revealed
her bald head from underneath her signature rap and the
crowd went wild. And I think that is something that,
(28:19):
like that points to how much our views of what
is beauty, what is black beauty, how we embrace ourselves
and dress our bodies and adorn things that speak to
our own pride, in our own how we self identify
(28:42):
within this again corridor of the early Odts, where, like
you said, video Vixen's were, you know, at the helm
of what we used to see as beauty and how
we define it. I think that like that is so
(29:02):
powerful to just randomly shave your head off, for people
like India Iri to come out and say I am
not my hair and make these bald declarations that again
broke black women out of the traditional bolt that we
have been seen.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
In Darren, did you get a chance to watch the
verses with Jill Scott and Erica? I?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I do, yes, I is.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about that
because I think even it feels like an interesting jextaposition.
While Jill and Erica are making all this music around
like self identity and kind of affirming themselves and healing
and what it feels like to be in love. They
talked about on the verses how there was still kind
(29:54):
of this competition that the industry was trying to set up,
right like that there couldn't be a Jill and an
Erica at the same time. And on the verses, I
remember Erica saying, I kind of opened the doors for Jill,
right Like, I think there was some appearance that they
wanted Erica to do. She wasn't available, and so she
suggested Jill. And that is how Jill, I think even
(30:15):
got that Jilsot moment. And so you know, I'm thinking
about that as you're talking that even as they are
trying to make these like affirming messages, the industry is
still trying to pit them against one another. And it
very much feels like the women of the Nio Soul
movement had this kind of sisterhood like collaboration kind of
effort that was against it flew in the face of
(30:38):
what the industry wanted at the time.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And when you think about Nail Saul
and the message of it and the drivers behind it,
it is in opposition of mainstream music industries rules, right.
I think a lot of people, especially today, probably think
of Neo Saul as being old or whatever, but really
(31:03):
it's afro futurism. It's experimental, it's eclectic, it's so many things,
and unfortunately competition is not one of them. Because Neo
saw this community, because that's the message behind it. And
I love that you mentioned that, because even as these
(31:26):
two albums, Who Is Jill Scott and Mama's Gun came
out in the same year, the criticism between the two,
like the critics absolutely tried to pick these albums against
each other. Again Jill's debut and it was beloved and
rightfully so. Mama's Gun was not only being compared to
(31:48):
Who Is Jill Scott, but it was also being compared
to Boduism, which came out in ninety seven, and critics
were using Mama Gun as a way to not only
pit pit those two together, but again pit Rikabadu against
(32:10):
Erkabandhu and er Kabahdu. Did not let them. Ericabadu said, okay,
absolutely not. Not only am I going to celebrate Jill
Scott and celebrate India, I'll read and celebrate Macy Gray
and celebrate all of these other artists who have come out,
but I'm also not going to let y'all get into
(32:32):
my head with these numbers. Yes, I might have expected
a a bigger portion of the sales to come out
and to surpass by duism, but at the end of
the day, I got out everything that I needed to
for my own healing, for my own artistry. And when
(32:52):
I go on tour, I see how my fans are
receiving this, and I see that I feel lighter because
I was able to respect my own artistry. And so
I think you know that community, that self empowerment is crucial,
(33:15):
and that is why Eric Abadu is who she is today,
because she allowed herself to experiment and to be open
and collaborative and accepting a warm.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
So I want to stay with this message of healing
because you know, now we hear more artists are more
and much more open about like mental health and like
the struggles that they're experiencing. I think this was before
that time, right, like nobody was necessarily talking about therapy
and all of those things. But I do think, as
you've alluded to, there are some real messages of healing
and affirmation that we can find in both.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Of these albums.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Can you highlight maybe a few of those healing and
affirmation themes from each of those albums?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Oh? Wow? Yeah? Absolutely. I'll start with Who Is Jill Scott?
Because I think that the overarching theme here feels like
to me, love and be loved the Jill Trow the
(34:20):
first track on the album, She is introducing herself with
who and what she loves. She loves herself, she loves poetry,
she loves her city, she loves music, and we get
to experience her through this. We get to experience what
(34:45):
it looks like to love in these very simple moments.
But we also get to experience and hear what it
means to slowly, surely walk away from love that is
not serving you anymore, and how fluid love is and
(35:12):
can be when we have a good and healthy relationship
with ourselves and don't allow ourselves to be boxed in
or manipulated by societal pressures, which I think is such
a huge thing for how we can view dating, relationships, love, etc.
(35:37):
In today's social media dominant conversations. And then for Mama's Gun,
I love that Mama's Gun feels like a double Chandra right,
she had just had her first son seven and within
(35:59):
this conversation that she talks about again love, identity, empowerment, politics,
she is equipping herself so that she can protect her son,
the future generation. And by protecting herself spiritually, emotionally, physically,
(36:20):
she's able to carry on the future generation to greater pastures,
so in higher levels that maybe she wasn't able to reach,
maybe she hasn't reached yet. And while also honoring the ancestors,
(36:44):
honoring herself and honoring the future, in honoring those feelings
that don't always feel the best, she is able to
show us a truth that is really why this album
(37:06):
and even in Jill Scott's case, Who Is Jill Scott?
That that is why these two albums are able to
stand the test of time, because they were born of
radical honesty that we needed to hear and that we
still need to hear.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
So, you know, Taron Edgier, you just talked about, especially
for Who Is Jill Scott, like some of these conversations
and how they are different from the things we might
see on social media. And I'm also thinking about what
it would be like for these albums to come out today, right,
and thinking like what they have even felt empowered to
(37:44):
be as transparent and vulnerable as they were given.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You know how.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
People would react maybe online, like what are your thoughts
around could we get who is Jill Scott or Mama's
Gun today?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I want to be so optimistic, doctor Joy, I want
to be so optimistic, but I don't know. I don't
think so, especially when we consider where the music industry
is going in how numbers dominate, their numbers driven things
have become. Unfortunately, we're getting albums that are so rich
(38:25):
in the messages they tell and even the talent that
new or neo soul artists spring, but unfortunately, I don't
think they are rising to meet the expectations of music execs,
unfortunately because they don't have the TikTok numbers, or because
(38:47):
they may not appeal quote unquote to what they think
audiences want aesthetically or sonically. Like I think about Ari
Linux and I love her so much, Like I think
that she is one of the most amazing newer neo
soul artists that we have today. And Shay butter Baby
(39:10):
was so amazing, it was such a great album, but
the deal that she was in with Dreamville was not
serving her artistry in the way that I think that
she needed and wanted it to and fortunately she just
got out of that and so hopefully she'll be able
to create more of the music that is of her
(39:32):
heart and what she really wants because she's aligned with
Solange now. But again, we're still hearing a lot of
the influence and a lot of the inspiration via artist
like Anderson Pop. Even Beyonce has sampled and interpolated songs
(39:55):
from both of these albums. But unfortunately, I don't know,
oh if the industry as a business really appreciates what
these albums would be able to do if they were
released today. M hm.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So you mentioned Aria Lennox, and she is definitely somebody
I think about when I think about like the legacy
of Ericavad and Jill Scott. Who are some other artists
that you think about when you think about like people
continuing to walk in these footsteps?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Oh, my goodness. I don't know if you've heard of
Ray Khalil. She is an amazing up and coming artist.
She's currently actually on tour with Anderson Park and she
sings in raps and feels so Erica Va do code.
It's so beautiful and refreshing to see, I believe she's
(40:47):
a queer woman as well, and to hear her sing
about so many of these themes that we've mentioned on
both of these albums from her perspect as a black
queer woman is so refreshing and something that I think
we need more of and we need to hear more of,
(41:09):
and I really want her to win so badly. I
think she skews a little bit more pop but her
and I say she skews a little bit more pop
right now because I think she's being pushed in that
direction a bit more, as we've unfortunately been seen with
a lot of neo soul artists. But her debut album
(41:34):
was amazing and it felt like it spoke to so
many of these so many of these things that we
were talking about in a more airy way than an
earthy way. And I think the different levels of neo
so we're seeing more artists play with which is really amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Who are you listening to? Doctor Joy?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
So you know, as you were talking, I was thinking
about alex Issley, but I feel like, I mean, she's
an Eisley, so I feel like she is a very
like pure R and B like crooner to me, but
it feels like she could kind of maybe play in
this neo soul kind of space.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah yeah, And I think, like I think that's also
like the beautiful thing of it, especially today, is we
are seeing more artists kind of genre blend and bend
and play in different directions and maybe they're stronger in
or you like one portion of their sound more than others,
(42:53):
And which is okay because we can pick and choose,
and that's the beauty of streaming. It has a lot
of it has a lot of pitfalls. At least we
have the power of choice.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
So, Terran, as we wrap up, you know, I definitely
want to get some kind of quick ideas from you
about you know, for people who maybe are just now
being introduced to Mama's Gun and who is Jill Scott?
Where would you suggest they start on each of these albums.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
From the top, But I definitely start from the top.
But if I okay, okay, I'm gonna start with who
is Jill Scott? And I would say my favorite. I'm
(43:44):
gonna give them my favorite of what moves me? Doctor Joy.
This is hard. I'm gonna again say slowly surely for
who is Jill Scott, because I think that it's such
and affirming and just sure self assured, for lack of
(44:12):
a better term way to say, I'm not doing this.
And I don't think that that has to be exclusive
to romantic relationships. I think that that can be for friendships.
I think that could be for relationships with job or
whatever your work is, or you know, it's such an
(44:33):
amazing song because it draws a boundary in the sand
and in such a definitive way that I have to like,
I have to give that to anyone, especially the younger kids,
because I know they like shorter songs, and it's a
(44:54):
shorter song, so I'm like, I'm gonna respect your attention span.
Start there. And then for Mama's Gun, Oh my god,
Orange Moon, Orange Moon, I have to say Orange Moon.
It's so beautiful. I feel like it makes me cry
a lot, because you could take it several ways of
(45:18):
her talking about like love with her partner, but also
it could be love with herself. And you know how
she shines brighter when she sees herself because the sun
is herself or the mirror, and relationships are mirrors anyway,
for ourselves, but like to hear love from the perspective
(45:43):
of how it makes you better and how it makes
you see yourself better and in a different light. It's
so beautiful to me. So I think that, like both
of these tracks could of course relate to so many things,
but I think the again self censoredness of it all,
(46:05):
which so many of us black women need more of,
is a one.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I love those and I love that my answers are
very different, but not that different, right, So for Mama's Gun,
I would have to choose bag Lady, right, like I
feel like that was the Crans in the Sky before
we got Crans in the Guy, right, like the very
first song that was really talking I think about boundaries
without calling them that, right, and thinking about to how
(46:33):
we can be more self centered and how to pay
attention to what we're carrying.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
So would have to be that.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
And then for who Is Your Scott, I think it
would be the Way because that probably is one of
the most beautiful songs.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Still ever to have been created. So I just loved
that song. I love that I wanted to give some
deep cuts for the people because I'm like, listen to
the other I know how y'all like to avoid deep cuts.
So I'm like, but I loved I loved that you
gave those too, because I'm like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So when you think about like the next twenty five
years of R and B and neal, So, what do
you think we have to look forward to, especially as
we think about the foundation that has been laid by
these women and many others.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Who I really especially now because we know that industry
budgets are shrinking, and with that we are seeing and
I think we're going to hear so many more self starters,
so many more people putting their music out there. I mean,
we've already had so much of that in our continue
(47:39):
to have so much of that with SoundCloud, YouTube, TikTok,
just different platforms where we can find newer artists. And
I think a lot of these artists, these newer artists
are walking in the steps of neo soul. What's interesting
is what I've been seeing is that like it doesn't matter,
(48:02):
like whether you're black or not, Like neo soul is
inspiring so many different people of different races in backgrounds,
and that just speaks to the value and longevity of
black music, of the music and the culture that we make,
and I think that's something that we're gonna continue to see.
(48:25):
I think we're going to continue to see artists pay
homage to these albums and sample these albums and tap
these artists for their songs. I think about er Kabadu,
she stays on a younger artist album, she has a
really great song, a couple of great songs with dram
(48:47):
and I think that we're going to see more of that,
more of the younger generations tapping directly into these artists
to not only sample, but also lend their voices and
ears to them. But yeah, I think that in twenty
five years, we are going to be having the same
conversation about Solange's albums and about Ari linux albums, and
(49:14):
so many of these artists who they're well established of course,
that are of younger generations who are slowly but surely
getting their flowers from us.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
This has been so much fun to chat with you
about this here and I love the things that you
shared about these albums. Can you please remind us where
can we stay connected with you? What is your website,
your subtac and your social media handles? Absolutely, thank you
so much. This has been so fun, doctor Joy.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Y'all can find me at Underscore tearing it Up on
TikTok Instagram and that other website that that man has
taken over that probably will be deactivating. So and you
also can find me on substack at let's say connected
(50:07):
dot substack dot com or on Terrenfinlay dot com. And yeah,
thank you so much doctor join once again.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Thank you, Darren. I'm so glad Taran was able to
join me for this conversation to celebrate the timeless artistry
of Eric Abadu and Jill Scott and to remind us
of how their music continues to hold space for black
women's softness, sensuality, and evolution. To learn more about Arran
(50:36):
and her work, visit the show notes at Therapyfro Blackgirls
dot com SLAS Session four thirty three, and don't forget
to text this episode or two of your girls right
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(50:58):
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(51:18):
Patreon For more exclusive updates and behind the scenes content.
You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indechubu
and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank
y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Take good care.