October 15, 2025 • 51 mins
This week we’re celebrating two iconic albums that have shaped the sound and soul of a generation, Erykah Badu’s Mama’s Gun and Jill Scott’s Who Is Jill Scott? Words and Sounds Vol. 1, both turning 25 this year. Joining us for this nostalgic and soul-filled conversation is Taryn Finley, journalist and founder of the Unbothered platform. During this conversation, we explore how these albums captured the essence of Black womanhood, love, sensuality, and self-discovery, and why they remain powerful touchstones for healing and self-expression today. We also talk about the emotional honesty both artists brought to their music and how their art continues to inspire new generations to embrace softness, vulnerability, and joy.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four thirty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. This week, we're celebrating
two iconic albums that have shaped the sound and soul
(01:19):
of a generation, Erica Badu's Mama's Gunn and Jill Scott's
Who Is Jill Scott Words and Sounds Volume One, both
turned twenty five this year. Joining me for this nostalgic
and soul filled conversation is Tarren Finley, journalist and founder
of the Unbothered platform. Together, we explore how these albums
(01:40):
capture the essence of black womanhood, love, sensuality, and self discovery,
and why they remain powerful touchstones for healing and self
expression today. We also talk about the emotional honesty both
artists brought to their music and how their art continues
to inspire new generations to embrace softness, vulnerability, and joy.
(02:01):
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in Session, or join us over in our patreon To
talk more about the episode. You can join us at
community dot therapy for blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.
(02:21):
Thank you so much for joining us here.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thank you for having me, Doctor Joy. Longtime listener, you
know I.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Love the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Thank you, Thank you. I know we talked a long
time ago. I feel like it might have been in
the pandemic you interviewed me for a piece. It feels
like quite some years ago, so it's been some time
since we chatted.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, it's crazy because the pandemic was like it started
five years ago, but it feels like it's been a
lot less time than that.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
So it's really great to reconnect.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yes, yes, So tell the people who you are and
a little bit about your background as a music journalist.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I am Aren Finlay. I am a cultural reporter. I've
been doing this for over a decade so far. I
covered a lot of music in my role as Black
Voices Editor and senior culture reporter at huff Post, especially
(03:19):
a lot in regards to R and B in retrospective
looks into hip hop. I did a lot for the
fiftieth anniversary or hip hop coverage over there, and music
specifically Black music has been such a huge through line
in my reporting because it's been such a huge through
line in my life. I'm currently writing about it for
(03:43):
my own personal substact. Let me plug that first at
Let's Stayconnected dot substack dot com, Refinery twenty nine x,
Sony Cole, contraband, camp Essence, and a few other places.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, so this definitely has been It feels like you
are someone who has had your finger on the pulse
of conversations around black music, which is why we're very
excited to have this conversation with you. So we are
gathering today for a very special occasion because both Mama's
Gun and who is Jill Scott are both celebrating twenty
five years.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So can you talk.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
About the impact of these albums and why you think
they still have such staying power even a quarter of
a century later.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Oh my goodness, two thousand was such a year for
heavy hitting albums. Obviously, Who Is Jill Scott the Jill
Scott's debut album came out earlier that year, and then
later in November, Mama's Gone, and it just to back
up into like this kind of window and time where
(04:45):
Nil Sol was having such a huge moment.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
We have work from.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
DiAngelo Bloo, Lauren Hill coming out in really redefining and
reshaping how we listen to this genre on the radio
and within quote unquote mainstream. So when we look at
(05:14):
I'll start with who is Jill Scott? This is Jill
Scott's debut album. We hear her bus on the scene
at that live performance with the Roots, the iconic my
Name is ji I L L S C O T T.
And her making this introduction in such a soulful, sultry,
(05:38):
seductive and really just like her debut album felt almost
like Honey. Not to be too cliche, but you know
she even has a song on that album called Honey molasses,
and that was such a great descriptor for not only
(06:00):
the texture of her voice in her lyrics, but also
how it was received. Right, she's talking about love, she's
talking about sex, she's talking about being desired. And this
is such a huge thing because not only is she
a black woman, but she's also plus sized. And during
(06:20):
the two thousands, we see sex being sold and todd
as a thing that is that only hyper fit and
super skinny, conventionally attractive quote unquote people lean into the
(06:41):
model ass all of that, and Jill is like, hey, like,
I'm fine as hell, and not only am I fine,
but I enjoy sex. My man enjoys sex with me,
and not only that, we enjoy being in love together.
And it isn't in a way that it is from
(07:04):
the male's gaze, but more so like she centers herself
in this conversation. Similarly with er Kabadu and Mama's Gun. Now,
the difference when it comes to Mama's Gun, however, is
that er Kabaidu. This was her sophomore album and it
(07:24):
released to kind of tep it reviews. You know, you
had half of the critics saying that they loved it,
and you know that it was experimental, and of course
it leaned into this afro futuristic sound and narrative. And
Erica wrote this album, most of this album completely herself,
(07:46):
and then you have the other half who are like,
what is this?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
This isn't a.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Baduism, This is a flop commercially, even though it so
went on to sold one million records the following year,
which that numbers are really subjective at this point, but
you see Erica not only censoring herself and her experience,
(08:12):
but also breaking away from the labels and narratives that
the industry really tried to confine her too when she
released Bodyism. And I could go on and on, but
I feel like these two there's so much to say
about it, and I know we're gonna get get into
(08:32):
both of these bodies of work even more so.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, so Taran, you probably have a better sense of this,
But what is the actual history of how we got
to nio soul?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Because there had already been like.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
A steady stream of R and B, but this did
feel like a departure from that in some ways. So
is there somebody who's really credited with the beginnings of
neo soul and how do we get there.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I don't know if there's one specific person, and if
there is, then you know, listeners, please come out and
correct me.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And let me know.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
But like I said, we had, especially in this corridor
of the nineties in early two thousands, such a breadth
of artists coming out. You have DiAngelo with Voodoo, and
you have Blao, Raphael Sadig, so many artists who leaned
(09:30):
into the black sounds that we have heard from generations before,
like Billie Holliday, like in Aretha Franklin, like a Patti
LaBelle and putting again this kind of Afro futuristic yet
very grounded and earthy undertone in it. One really beautiful
(09:53):
thing about neo soul and what we really start hearing,
especially as we're turning into the new millennium, we start
hearing a lot of live instrumentation from these artists, and
not only that, but also collaboration. And it wasn't uncommon
to hear or see a Raphael sa dik in di'angelo collaborating,
(10:20):
or a er Kabaidu in Questlove in the studio. A
lot of times there was this communal feeling of soul
that they came together to create that really brought out
(10:40):
the heart of neo soul, and I think was evident
then and even years later now as we listen to
all of these records and listen to all of these artists,
that that sound is so evident.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And I know we'll get into this.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Later, but there are a lot of artists that are
sampling and trying to recreate those sounds.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Now, what do you feel like was happening in the
R and B and hip hop space that really gave
way to neo zil Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Wow, we were seeing subgenres come out the woodward. Of course,
R and B itself had such a moment in the
nineties where you have these groups like Black and Boys
to Man, and you know, their sound was really the
(11:34):
sound of the decade.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
When you turned on the radio.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
The crooners were really the ones who were winning the airways,
which was such a beautiful thing. But it couldn't be
just about not necessarily saying that these artists were super
one dimensional or anything. But it couldn't just be about
(12:01):
just sex or just love or just you know, it
had to take another step. It had to elevate in
a way. And so in a way, these neo soul
artists were the ones who came through and added a
(12:21):
bit more depth. They were the ones who really made
you think in the ones who created in song lyrics
that gave more of a heaviness and more of a
feel in humanity and was a bit more accessible to
(12:43):
everyday people. And they were very direct in who their
audience were, which was us, us as black people. I
think one thing that was really interesting to me specifically
when we talk about Erica writing Mama's Gun was she
had recently gone over to Motown for the album, and
(13:06):
Motown wanted R. Kelly and Babyface to help her write
this album, but Baidu declined, and she said that she
respected their music, but that's not the parallel that she
wanted to do, and she wanted to evolve, She wanted
to elevate, and she said that she trusts her fans
(13:29):
enough to evolve with her, and that was a big risk,
and that was such a big step, and I think
that was something that a lot of these neo.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
So artists were doing.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
They were walking to the beat of their own drum,
but still taking from what we know of that like eighties, nineties,
R and B in hip hop sound.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
As you've been talking Teren talk about there were so
many men I think that were influential in the neils
So movement, right, But it does feel like because we're
talking about Jill Scott and Eric aboutdou but also I think,
Indi Iri, you've already mentioned Lauren Hill, like there were
a lot of women that were instrumental in neil So.
Can you talk about like the way that women and
(14:18):
women's presence really expanded what Neil.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Sol was was Oh my goodness, yes, absolutely Again, when
I think of who is Sheill Scott, when I think
of Mama's Gun, even albums that Macy Gray, Indi I
re Lauren Hill dropped, these were albums in which these
(14:44):
women are talking about love, sex, relationships, politics, identity in
ways that centered themselves. They were not the they were
not the side character in their own stories, which unfortunately
(15:04):
in a lot of R and B we have seen,
especially R and B of Yesteryear love those records down.
But these albums, these records felt like they had not
only an empowered voice, but also a very self aware
and self reflective voice. I even think about Green Eyes
(15:28):
by Erica Baidu, and that was a direct song that
she wrote in four parts in response to her breakup
with Andre three thousand. Of course, they had just had
their son seven as she was producing and creating this album,
(15:52):
And what was really interesting to me is the admittance
of like, yeah, I'm a little insecure here and I'm
going through it. I'm going through the cycles of heartbreak,
of breakup and of mourning this relationship, mourning what I
(16:13):
thought was going to be and seeing that Okay, I
need to move on, but I'm not sure exactly how
to do that. There's so much power in stating that
and singing that and really going in that direction. I
even think about one of my probably like toxic favorite
(16:35):
songs and I don't know if it's toxic, but Getting
in the Way by Jill Scott on who is Jill
Scott was such when I listened to it beforehand, which
is what I think is a beautiful thing about these retrospectives.
When I listened to it beforehand, it felt like she
(16:58):
was arguing about with this woman about like, hey, don't
mess with my man. When I listen to it now,
it doesn't feel like that. It feels more so, hey, girl,
I know that you have feelings for him and y'all
probably got something going on. And look, no disrespect to you,
(17:18):
but you're getting in the way of what I'm feeling.
She's not saying that, like, it's not the boy is mine,
it's you getting the way of what I'm feeling of
the love that I have for this man. And I'm
being honest with you and letting you know. And I
think that that honesty and that vulnerability and transparency is
(17:41):
what we see from these women. And they took the
genre touch such a different level that we see still
their actions, their decisions, their lyrics and songs stress are
still reverberating in music that we're listening to today. I mean,
(18:02):
these women are still on tour. Lauren Hill just wrapped
up a tour last year. Macy Gray, I feel like
she stays on tour, and of course Mama's Gun twenty
fifth anniversary tour as commenced last month, and it's just
so refreshing. It was so refreshing then as little tarn
(18:24):
seeing and hearing these women listening to the adults in
my life, because I was probably about like eight when
these albums came out. Listening to the adults in my
life embraced this music and looking up and saying, hey,
like this is what grown women listen to.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Like that is.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Really how I view these artists back then and today
as I navigate my own troubles and heal and find
solutions and reasons for why life lives. These albums, these
women's voices have become the solve that continues to provide,
(19:08):
if not answers, relief and help me feel se in
the moment.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
More from our conversation after the break, I love that
you shared like where you were in the world, because
we're having a very it feels like intergenerational conversation because
I was in my senior year in college with the album,
(19:37):
so I was in a very different place, right, So
these elples very much feel like the soundtrack to my
young adulthood, right, like figuring out who I was as
a young woman. And I love that you're saying like,
even years later, like you're thinking about maybe your mom
and aunties listening to this music and still feeling like
you can connect with it now as a young woman yourself,
which I think is like just incredible that there is
(20:00):
music that exists across time that speaks to black womanhood
and black girlhood in ways that are so powerful.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So, you know, you've already talked about especially how when
Jill came on the scene, it very much felt like
she was a very different picture of what we were
seeing in terms of the video vixens, and you mentioned
kind of women being the object of affection but not
necessarily owning their own desire. Can you talk more about
how both of these albums really presented a different view
of black womanhood and kind of maybe expanded the ideas
(20:34):
about who black women were.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Oh wow, Yeah, absolutely, because both Who Is Your Scott
and Mama's Guns speak to similar things at the same
time in very different ways, like just different avenues, And
it's so interesting like listening to them and being able
to relate to both of them in very different ways.
(20:58):
So it what I love is how much they take
command of their own desires and their own desirability, and
they weren't afraid er Kubandu and Jill Scott were not
afraid to be that and to ask for that and
(21:23):
to command that and to say yes, I would like
that in very different ways. Okay, because Jill, one thing
that I feel like we all love about Jill is
how she looks at the simplicities of life, the simplicities
of nature, and how she's able to compare certain things
(21:49):
like honey molasses or like a block party in Philly
or quarter waters or sense and it makes you feel full.
Jill has a way of helping you tap into your
sacral chakra as a woman and not being afraid to
(22:12):
lean into that. This is before the more recent movements
and activists who have come out and said, hey, women's
sexual desires are a part of women's sexual health and
we need to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
They are not taboo.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
And so that is such a beautiful thing to listen
to and to witness Sandwich in between these stories of
pain of love and to hear Jill seeing he loves
me and as a black woman like that will always
(22:55):
feel revolutionary. To hear a black woman claim that love
that their partner is bestowing upon them is so beautiful.
And then I think about Erka Baidu, where she's asking
for the same in a very different way on kiss
(23:15):
Me on My Neck, a song that she collaborated with
Jay Dilla for He was credited as jd on the
album which I think is a cute little like nugget,
because I don't know why he chose a certain name.
Maybe it was to like not distract, but I thought
that that was really cute.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Want you to kiss me on my neck, I want
you to breathe on my neck, and that subtlety in
a very different way, I think Erica sings about it
in a way that feels almost spiritual and then even
a different type of love. I think about AD two thousand,
(23:56):
in which she is singing from the perspective of a
Milo Diallo who was gunned down by police in the
most brutal way in two thousand and for this woman
to sing from this slain black man's perspective and say,
(24:18):
I don't want y'all to build no dilapidated buildings off
of my name and name them after me, because I
know that that is a passive, cosmetic solution quote unquote
to this greater injustice. And both of these albums talk
(24:40):
about black women's love, and I think that that specific
act of her creating a D two thousand felt like
such a great metaphor for what we've seen black women
time and time again, and that show up in all
(25:06):
of the fights, especially the fight that is for the
sake in liberation and survival and love of our people.
And so I don't even know if I answer the question,
because I feel like I've gone in so many different directions.
But that's such a testament to the vastness of womanhood
(25:30):
that these two albums really speak to.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't just one thing, right Like, I
love that there's the mix of a song about being
jealous and insecure after a breakup combined with an album
that has police brutality themes, right, Like, I think that
it is a representation of all the things that we
are thinking about in living and that real life testament
to what was going on for them at the time.
(25:55):
So I think in addition to the beautiful sounds and
the messages that we got from these albums, I also
think that we really saw a shift in the aesthetics
of a black womanhood after these albums. And you know,
I think kind of generally related to the Nioso movement,
like we saw, like you mentioned Bado with like the
head wraps and Jill really was embracing her natural hair, Like,
(26:16):
we saw a real shift into that. Can you talk
about how the Nioso move would really change what aesthetically
it looked like to be a black woman.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I don't think that I necessarily noticed too much beforehand
the women who were wearing the hair natural, but after
Jill Scott and Rikabadu and Macy Gray and all of
these women started to become more evident for me on
(26:47):
my screen as little girl watching BET, I do remember
noticing more so women embracing their natural hair, women wearing
clothes that were and related to Black Pride and the diaspora,
and the dangly earrings that weren't necessarily just the bamboos
(27:11):
and the door knockers, but also you know, ones that
were like wooden of afro picks. And it did feel
like there was a building upon of the Black Pride
movement of the sixties and seventies within this era of neo.
(27:35):
So I even think about during the Mama's Gun promotion
into it, and I don't even necessarily think this was
for promotion, because I think a lot of artists do
a lot of stunts for promotion these days, but more
so just because she wanted to everybody new cut her
hair off because she wanted to a change and she
(27:59):
wanted to embrace her bald head, and at one of
the stops for Mama's Gun Tour, she revealed her bald
head from underneath her signature rap and the crowd went wild.
And I think that is something that like that points
(28:20):
to how much our views of what is beauty, what
is black beauty, how we embrace ourselves and dress our
bodies and adorn things that speak to our own pride,
in our own how we self identify within this again
(28:46):
corridor of the early odds, where, like you said, Video
Vixen's were, you know, at the helm of what we
used to see as beauty and how we define it.
I think that like that is so powerful to just
randomly shave your head off, for people like India Iri
(29:10):
to come out and say I am not my hair
and make these bald declarations that again broke black women
out of the traditional bolt that we have been seen.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
In Darren, did you get a chance to watch the
verses with Jill Scott and Erica?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
If I do, yes, I is.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about that
because I think even it feels like an interesting juxtaposition.
While Jill and Erica are making all this music around
like self identity and kind of affirming themselves and healing
and what it feels like to be in love. They
talked about on the verses how there was still kind
(29:54):
of this competition that the industry was trying to set up,
right like that there couldn't be a Jill and an
Erica at the same time. And on the verses, I
remember Erica saying, I kind of opened the doors for Jill,
right Like, I think there was some appearance that they
wanted Erica to do. She wasn't available, and so she
suggested Jill. And that is how Jill, I think even
(30:15):
got that Jilsot moment. And so you know, I'm thinking
about that as you're talking that even as they are
trying to make these like affirming messages, the industry is
still trying to pit them against one another. And it
very much feels like the women of the Nio soul
movement had this kind of sisterhood like collaboration kind of
effort that was against it flew in the face of
(30:38):
what the industry wanted at the time.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And when you think about Neil Saul
and the message of it and the drivers behind it,
it is in opposition of mainstream music industries rules.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I think a lot of people, especially today, probably think
of Neo Saul as being old score or whatever, but really.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
It's afro futurism.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
It's experimental, it's eclectic, it's so many things, and unfortunately
competition is not one of them. Because Neo saw this community,
because that's the message behind it. And I love that
you mentioned that because even as these two albums Who
(31:29):
Is Jill Scott and Mama's Gun came out in the
same year, the criticism between the two, like the critics
absolutely tried to pick these albums against each other. Again
Jill's debut and it was beloved and rightfully so. Mama's
Gun was not only being compared to Who Is Jill Scott,
(31:50):
but it was also being compared to Boduism, which came
out in ninety seven, and critics were using mam Gun
as a way to not only pit pit those two together,
but again pit Rikabadu against Ericabaandu and er Kabahdu did
(32:11):
not let them. Ericabadu said, okay, absolutely not. Not only
am I going to celebrate Jill Scott and celebrate India,
I read and celebrate Macy Gray and celebrate all of
these other artists who have come out, But I'm also
not going to let y'all get into my head with
(32:33):
these numbers. Yes, I might have expected a a bigger
portion of the sales to come out and to surpass
by duism, but at the end of the day, I
got out everything that I needed to for my own healing,
for my own artistry. And when I go on tour,
(32:54):
I see how my fans are receiving this, and I
see that I feel lighter because I was able to
respect my own artistry. And so I think you know
that community, that self empowerment is crucial, and that is
(33:15):
why erk Abadu is who she is today, because she
allowed herself to experiment and to be open and collaborative
and accepting a warm So.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I want to stay with this message of healing because
you know, now we hear more artists are more and
much more open about like mental health and like the
struggles that they're experiencing. I think this was before that time, right,
like nobody was necessarily talking about therapy and all of
those things. But I do think, as you've alluded to,
there's some real messages of healing and affirmation that we
can find in both of these albums. Can you highlight
(33:50):
maybe a few of those healing and affirmation themes from
each of those albums?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Oh? Wow?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I'll start with Who Is Jill Scott because I think
that the overarching theme here feels like to me, love
and be loved the Jill Trow the first track on
(34:21):
the album, She is introducing herself with who and what
she loves. She loves herself, she loves poetry, she loves
her city, she loves music, and we get to experience
her through this. We get to experience what it looks
(34:45):
like to love in these very simple moments. But we
also get to experience and hear what it means to slowly,
surely walk away from love that.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Is not serving you anymore, and.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
How fluid love is and can be when we have
a good and healthy relationship with ourselves and don't allow
ourselves to be boxed in or manipulated by societal pressures,
(35:28):
which I think is such a huge thing for how
we can view dating, relationships, love, etc. In today's social
media dominant conversations. And then for Mama's Gun. I love
that Mama's Gun feels like a double Chandra, right, she
(35:53):
had just had her first son seven and within this
conversation that she talks about again love, identity, empowerment, politics,
she is equipping herself so that she can protect her son,
(36:13):
the future generation. And by protecting herself spiritually, emotionally, physically,
she's able to carry on the future generation to greater pastures,
so in higher levels that maybe she wasn't able to reach,
(36:34):
maybe she hasn't reached yet. And while also honoring the ancestors,
honoring herself and honoring the future, in honoring those feelings
that don't always feel the best, she is able to
(36:57):
show us a truth that is really why this album,
even in Jill Scott's case, Who Is Jill Scott? That
is why these two albums are able to stand the
test of time because they were born of.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Radical honesty that we.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Needed to hear and that we still need to hear.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
So, you know, Taron Edgier, you just talked about, especially
for Who Is Jill Scott, like some of these conversations
and how they are different from the things we might
see on social media. And I'm also thinking.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
About what it would be like for these.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Albums to come out today, right and thinking like what
they have even felt empowered to be as transparent and
vulnerable as they were given. You know how people would
react maybe online, like what are your thoughts around could
we get who is Jill Scott or Mama's Gun today?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I want to be so optimistic, doctor Joy, I want
to be so optimistic, but I don't know. I don't
think so, especially when we consider where the music industry
is going in how numbers dominate, their numbers driven things
have become. Unfortunately, we're getting albums that are so rich
(38:25):
in the messages they tell and even the talent that
newer neo soul artists spring, but unfortunately, I don't think
they are rising to meet the expectations of music execs,
unfortunately because they don't have the TikTok numbers, or because
(38:47):
they may not appeal quote unquote to what they think
audiences want aesthetically or sonically. Like I think about Ari
Lenux and her so much, like I think that she
is one of the most amazing newer neo soul artists
that we have today. And Shay butter Baby was so amazing,
(39:12):
it was such a great album, but the deal that
she was in with Dreamville was not serving her artistry
in the way that I think that she needed and
wanted it to and fortunately she just got out of
that and so hopefully she'll be able to create more
of the music that is of her heart and what
(39:33):
she really wants because she's aligned with Solange now. But again,
we're still hearing a lot of the influence and a
lot of the inspiration via artist like Anderson Pop. Even
Beyonce has sampled and interpolated songs from both of these albums.
(39:57):
But unfortunately, I don't know, oh if the industry as
a business really appreciates what these albums would be able
to do if they were released today. M hm.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So you mentioned Aria Lennox, and she is definitely somebody
I think about when I think about like the legacy
of Erica Vado and Jill Scott. Who are some other
artists that you think about when you think about like
people continuing to walk in these footsteps?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Oh, my goodness. I don't know if you've heard of
Ray Khalil. She is an amazing up and coming artist.
She's currently actually on tour with Anderson Park and she
sings in raps and feels so Erica Vay do code,
It's so beautiful and refreshing to see, I believe she's
(40:47):
a queer woman as well, and to hear her sing
about so many of these themes that we've mentioned on
both of these albums from her perspect as a black
queer woman is so refreshing and something that I think
we need more of and we need to hear more of,
(41:09):
and I really want her to.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Win so badly.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I think she skews a little bit more pop but
her and I say she scus a little bit more
pop right now because I think she's being pushed in
that direction a bit more as we've unfortunately been seen
with a lot of neo soul artists.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
But her debut album.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Was amazing and it felt like it spoke to so
many of these so many of these things that we
were talking about in a more airy.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Way than an earthy way.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
And I think the different levels of neo so where
we're seeing more artists play with which is really amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Who are you listening to? Doctor Joy?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
So you know, as you were talking, I was thinking
about alex Issley, but I feel like, I mean, she's
an Eisley, so I feel like She is a very
like pure r and b like crooner to me, but
it feels like she could kind of maybe play in
this neo soul kind of space.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah yeah, and I think, like I think that's also
like the beautiful thing of it, especially today, is we
are seeing more artists kind of genre blend and bend
and play in different directions and maybe they're stronger in
or you like one portion of their sound more than others,
(42:53):
And which is okay because we can pick and choose,
and that's the beauty of streaming. It has a lot
of it has a lot of pitfalls.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
At least we have the power of choice.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
So, Terran, as we wrap up, you know, I definitely
want to get some kind of quick ideas from you
about you know, for people who maybe are just now
being introduced to Mama's Gun and who is Jill Scott?
Where would you suggest they start on each of these albums.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
From the top, But I definitely start from the top.
But if I okay, okay, I'm gonna start with who
is Jill Scott? And I would say my favorite. I'm
(43:44):
gonna give them my favorite of what moves me?
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Doctor Joy. This is hard.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
I'm gonna again say slowly surely for who is Jill Scott,
because I think that it's such and affirming and just
sure self assured, for lack of a better term way
(44:15):
to say, I'm not doing this. And I don't think
that that has to be exclusive to romantic relationships. I
think that that can be for friendships. I think that
could be for relationships with job or whatever your work is,
or you know, it's such an amazing song because it
(44:37):
draws a boundary in the sand and in such a
definitive way that I have to like, I have to
give that to anyone, especially the younger kids, because I
know they like shorter songs, and it's a shorter song,
so I'm like, I'm gonna respect your attention. Spans start there,
(45:00):
and then for Mama's gun, Oh my god, Orange Moon,
Orange Moon, I have to say Orange Moon.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
I feel like it makes me cry a lot, because
you could take it several ways of her talking about
like love with her partner, but also it could be
love with herself. And you know how she shines brighter
when she sees herself because the sun is herself or
(45:33):
the mirror, and relationships are mirrors. Anyway for ourselves, but
like to hear love from the perspective of how it
makes you better and how it makes you see yourself
better and in a different light. It's so beautiful to me.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
So I think that, like both.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Of these tracks could of course relate to so many things,
but I think the again self censoredness of it all,
which so many of us black women need more of,
is a one.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I love those and I love that my answers are
very different, but not that different, right, So for Mama's Gun,
I would have to choose bag Lady, right, like I
feel like that was the Crans in the Sky before
we got Creans in the Sky, right, like the very
first song that was really talking I think about boundaries
without calling them that, right, and thinking about to how
(46:33):
we can be more self centered and how to pay
attention to what we're carrying.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
So would have to be that.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
And then for who Is Your Scott, I think it
would be the Way because that probably.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Is one of the most beautiful songs.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Still ever to have been created.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
So I just loved that song.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
I love that I wanted to give some deep cuts
for the people because I'm like to listen to the
other I know how y'all like to avoid deep cuts.
So I'm like, but I loved, I love that you
gave those because I'm like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So when you think about like the next twenty five
years of R and B and neal, So, what do
you think we have to look forward to, especially as
we think about the foundation that has been laid by
these women and many others.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Who I really especially now because we know that industry
budgets are shrinking, and with that we are seeing and
I think we're going to hear so many more self starters,
so many more people putting their music out there. I mean,
we already had so much of that in our continue
(47:39):
to have so much of that with SoundCloud, YouTube, TikTok,
just different platforms where we can find newer artists. And
I think a lot of these artists, these newer artists
are walking in the steps of neo soul. And what's
interesting is what I've been seeing is that like it
(48:01):
doesn't matter, like whether you're black or not, Like neo
soul is inspiring so many different people of different races
in backgrounds, and that just speaks to the value and
longevity of black music, of the music and the culture
that we make.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
And I think that's.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Something that we're going to continue to see.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
I think we're going to continue to.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
See artists pay homage to these albums and sample these
albums and tap these artists for their songs. I think
about er Kabadou, she stays on a younger artist album,
she has a really great song, a couple of great
songs with dram and I think that we're going to
(48:48):
see more of that, more of the younger generations tapping
directly into these artists to not only sample, but also
lend their voices and ears to them. But yeah, I
think that in twenty five years, we are going to
be having the same conversation about Solange's albums and about
(49:12):
ari linux albums, and so many of these artists who
they're well established of course, that are of younger generations
who are slowly but surely getting their flowers from us.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
This has been so much fun to chat with you
about this here and I love the things that you
shared about these albums. Can you please remind us where
can we stay connected with you? What is your website,
your subseac and your social media handles?
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Absolutely, thank you so much. This has been so fun,
Doctor Joy. Y'all can find me at Underscore tearing it
Up on TikTok Instagram and that other website that that
man has taken over that probably will be deactivating. So
(50:02):
and you also can find me on substack at let's
Stay Connected dot substack dot com or on Terrenfinlay dot com.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
And yeah, thank you so much, Doctor Joy. Once again,
thank you, Darren.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
I'm so glad Taran was able to join me for
this conversation to celebrate the timeless artistry of Eric Abadu
and Jill Scott and to remind us of how their
music continues to hold space for black women's softness, sensuality,
and evolution. To learn more about Arran and her work,
visit the show notes at Therapyfro Blackgirls dot com SLAS
Session four thirty three, and don't forget to text this
(50:43):
episode or two of your girls right now and tell
them to check out the episode. Did you know that
you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or
suggestions for the podcast. If you have movies or books
you'd like us to review, or have thoughts about topics
you'd like to hear us discuss, drop us a message
at Memo dot FM's slash Therapy for Black Girls and
let us know what's on your mind. We might just
(51:04):
feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a
therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow
us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come
on over and join us in our Patreon For more
exclusive updates and behind the scenes content. You can join
us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
(51:27):
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaetubu and Tyree Rush.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
Take good care.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four thirty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. This week, we're celebrating
two iconic albums that have shaped the sound and soul
(01:19):
of a generation, Erica Badu's Mama's Gunn and Jill Scott's
Who Is Jill Scott Words and Sounds Volume One, both
turned twenty five this year. Joining me for this nostalgic
and soul filled conversation is Tarren Finley, journalist and founder
of the Unbothered platform. Together, we explore how these albums
(01:40):
capture the essence of black womanhood, love, sensuality, and self discovery,
and why they remain powerful touchstones for healing and self
expression today. We also talk about the emotional honesty both
artists brought to their music and how their art continues
to inspire new generations to embrace softness, vulnerability, and joy.
(02:01):
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in Session, or join us over in our patreon To
talk more about the episode. You can join us at
community dot therapy for blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.
(02:21):
Thank you so much for joining us here.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thank you for having me, Doctor Joy. Longtime listener, you
know I.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Love the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Thank you, Thank you. I know we talked a long
time ago. I feel like it might have been in
the pandemic you interviewed me for a piece. It feels
like quite some years ago, so it's been some time
since we chatted.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, it's crazy because the pandemic was like it started
five years ago, but it feels like it's been a
lot less time than that.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
So it's really great to reconnect.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yes, yes, So tell the people who you are and
a little bit about your background as a music journalist.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I am Aren Finlay. I am a cultural reporter. I've
been doing this for over a decade so far. I
covered a lot of music in my role as Black
Voices Editor and senior culture reporter at huff Post, especially
(03:19):
a lot in regards to R and B in retrospective
looks into hip hop. I did a lot for the
fiftieth anniversary or hip hop coverage over there, and music
specifically Black music has been such a huge through line
in my reporting because it's been such a huge through
line in my life. I'm currently writing about it for
(03:43):
my own personal substact. Let me plug that first at
Let's Stayconnected dot substack dot com, Refinery twenty nine x,
Sony Cole, contraband, camp Essence, and a few other places.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, so this definitely has been It feels like you
are someone who has had your finger on the pulse
of conversations around black music, which is why we're very
excited to have this conversation with you. So we are
gathering today for a very special occasion because both Mama's
Gun and who is Jill Scott are both celebrating twenty
five years.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So can you talk.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
About the impact of these albums and why you think
they still have such staying power even a quarter of
a century later.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Oh my goodness, two thousand was such a year for
heavy hitting albums. Obviously, Who Is Jill Scott the Jill
Scott's debut album came out earlier that year, and then
later in November, Mama's Gone, and it just to back
up into like this kind of window and time where
(04:45):
Nil Sol was having such a huge moment.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
We have work from.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
DiAngelo Bloo, Lauren Hill coming out in really redefining and
reshaping how we listen to this genre on the radio
and within quote unquote mainstream. So when we look at
(05:14):
I'll start with who is Jill Scott? This is Jill
Scott's debut album. We hear her bus on the scene
at that live performance with the Roots, the iconic my
Name is ji I L L S C O T T.
And her making this introduction in such a soulful, sultry,
(05:38):
seductive and really just like her debut album felt almost
like Honey. Not to be too cliche, but you know
she even has a song on that album called Honey molasses,
and that was such a great descriptor for not only
(06:00):
the texture of her voice in her lyrics, but also
how it was received. Right, she's talking about love, she's
talking about sex, she's talking about being desired. And this
is such a huge thing because not only is she
a black woman, but she's also plus sized. And during
(06:20):
the two thousands, we see sex being sold and todd
as a thing that is that only hyper fit and
super skinny, conventionally attractive quote unquote people lean into the
(06:41):
model ass all of that, and Jill is like, hey, like,
I'm fine as hell, and not only am I fine,
but I enjoy sex. My man enjoys sex with me,
and not only that, we enjoy being in love together.
And it isn't in a way that it is from
(07:04):
the male's gaze, but more so like she centers herself
in this conversation. Similarly with er Kabadu and Mama's Gun. Now,
the difference when it comes to Mama's Gun, however, is
that er Kabaidu. This was her sophomore album and it
(07:24):
released to kind of tep it reviews. You know, you
had half of the critics saying that they loved it,
and you know that it was experimental, and of course
it leaned into this afro futuristic sound and narrative. And
Erica wrote this album, most of this album completely herself,
(07:46):
and then you have the other half who are like,
what is this?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
This isn't a.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Baduism, This is a flop commercially, even though it so
went on to sold one million records the following year,
which that numbers are really subjective at this point, but
you see Erica not only censoring herself and her experience,
(08:12):
but also breaking away from the labels and narratives that
the industry really tried to confine her too when she
released Bodyism. And I could go on and on, but
I feel like these two there's so much to say
about it, and I know we're gonna get get into
(08:32):
both of these bodies of work even more so.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, so Taran, you probably have a better sense of this,
But what is the actual history of how we got
to nio soul?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Because there had already been like.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
A steady stream of R and B, but this did
feel like a departure from that in some ways. So
is there somebody who's really credited with the beginnings of
neo soul and how do we get there.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I don't know if there's one specific person, and if
there is, then you know, listeners, please come out and
correct me.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And let me know.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
But like I said, we had, especially in this corridor
of the nineties in early two thousands, such a breadth
of artists coming out. You have DiAngelo with Voodoo, and
you have Blao, Raphael Sadig, so many artists who leaned
(09:30):
into the black sounds that we have heard from generations before,
like Billie Holliday, like in Aretha Franklin, like a Patti
LaBelle and putting again this kind of Afro futuristic yet
very grounded and earthy undertone in it. One really beautiful
(09:53):
thing about neo soul and what we really start hearing,
especially as we're turning into the new millennium, we start
hearing a lot of live instrumentation from these artists, and
not only that, but also collaboration. And it wasn't uncommon
to hear or see a Raphael sa dik in di'angelo collaborating,
(10:20):
or a er Kabaidu in Questlove in the studio. A
lot of times there was this communal feeling of soul
that they came together to create that really brought out
(10:40):
the heart of neo soul, and I think was evident
then and even years later now as we listen to
all of these records and listen to all of these artists,
that that sound is so evident.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And I know we'll get into this.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Later, but there are a lot of artists that are
sampling and trying to recreate those sounds.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Now, what do you feel like was happening in the
R and B and hip hop space that really gave
way to neo zil Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Wow, we were seeing subgenres come out the woodward. Of course,
R and B itself had such a moment in the
nineties where you have these groups like Black and Boys
to Man, and you know, their sound was really the
(11:34):
sound of the decade.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
When you turned on the radio.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
The crooners were really the ones who were winning the airways,
which was such a beautiful thing. But it couldn't be
just about not necessarily saying that these artists were super
one dimensional or anything. But it couldn't just be about
(12:01):
just sex or just love or just you know, it
had to take another step. It had to elevate in
a way. And so in a way, these neo soul
artists were the ones who came through and added a
(12:21):
bit more depth. They were the ones who really made
you think in the ones who created in song lyrics
that gave more of a heaviness and more of a
feel in humanity and was a bit more accessible to
(12:43):
everyday people. And they were very direct in who their
audience were, which was us, us as black people. I
think one thing that was really interesting to me specifically
when we talk about Erica writing Mama's Gun was she
had recently gone over to Motown for the album, and
(13:06):
Motown wanted R. Kelly and Babyface to help her write
this album, but Baidu declined, and she said that she
respected their music, but that's not the parallel that she
wanted to do, and she wanted to evolve, She wanted
to elevate, and she said that she trusts her fans
(13:29):
enough to evolve with her, and that was a big risk,
and that was such a big step, and I think
that was something that a lot of these neo.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
So artists were doing.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
They were walking to the beat of their own drum,
but still taking from what we know of that like eighties, nineties,
R and B in hip hop sound.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
As you've been talking Teren talk about there were so
many men I think that were influential in the neils
So movement, right, But it does feel like because we're
talking about Jill Scott and Eric aboutdou but also I think,
Indi Iri, you've already mentioned Lauren Hill, like there were
a lot of women that were instrumental in neil So.
Can you talk about like the way that women and
(14:18):
women's presence really expanded what Neil.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Sol was was Oh my goodness, yes, absolutely Again, when
I think of who is Sheill Scott, when I think
of Mama's Gun, even albums that Macy Gray, Indi I
re Lauren Hill dropped, these were albums in which these
(14:44):
women are talking about love, sex, relationships, politics, identity in
ways that centered themselves. They were not the they were
not the side character in their own stories, which unfortunately
(15:04):
in a lot of R and B we have seen,
especially R and B of Yesteryear love those records down.
But these albums, these records felt like they had not
only an empowered voice, but also a very self aware
and self reflective voice. I even think about Green Eyes
(15:28):
by Erica Baidu, and that was a direct song that
she wrote in four parts in response to her breakup
with Andre three thousand. Of course, they had just had
their son seven as she was producing and creating this album,
(15:52):
And what was really interesting to me is the admittance
of like, yeah, I'm a little insecure here and I'm
going through it. I'm going through the cycles of heartbreak,
of breakup and of mourning this relationship, mourning what I
(16:13):
thought was going to be and seeing that Okay, I
need to move on, but I'm not sure exactly how
to do that. There's so much power in stating that
and singing that and really going in that direction. I
even think about one of my probably like toxic favorite
(16:35):
songs and I don't know if it's toxic, but Getting
in the Way by Jill Scott on who is Jill
Scott was such when I listened to it beforehand, which
is what I think is a beautiful thing about these retrospectives.
When I listened to it beforehand, it felt like she
(16:58):
was arguing about with this woman about like, hey, don't
mess with my man. When I listen to it now,
it doesn't feel like that. It feels more so, hey, girl,
I know that you have feelings for him and y'all
probably got something going on. And look, no disrespect to you,
(17:18):
but you're getting in the way of what I'm feeling.
She's not saying that, like, it's not the boy is mine,
it's you getting the way of what I'm feeling of
the love that I have for this man. And I'm
being honest with you and letting you know. And I
think that that honesty and that vulnerability and transparency is
(17:41):
what we see from these women. And they took the
genre touch such a different level that we see still
their actions, their decisions, their lyrics and songs stress are
still reverberating in music that we're listening to today. I mean,
(18:02):
these women are still on tour. Lauren Hill just wrapped
up a tour last year. Macy Gray, I feel like
she stays on tour, and of course Mama's Gun twenty
fifth anniversary tour as commenced last month, and it's just
so refreshing. It was so refreshing then as little tarn
(18:24):
seeing and hearing these women listening to the adults in
my life, because I was probably about like eight when
these albums came out. Listening to the adults in my
life embraced this music and looking up and saying, hey,
like this is what grown women listen to.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Like that is.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Really how I view these artists back then and today
as I navigate my own troubles and heal and find
solutions and reasons for why life lives. These albums, these
women's voices have become the solve that continues to provide,
(19:08):
if not answers, relief and help me feel se in
the moment.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
More from our conversation after the break, I love that
you shared like where you were in the world, because
we're having a very it feels like intergenerational conversation because
I was in my senior year in college with the album,
(19:37):
so I was in a very different place, right, So
these elples very much feel like the soundtrack to my
young adulthood, right, like figuring out who I was as
a young woman. And I love that you're saying like,
even years later, like you're thinking about maybe your mom
and aunties listening to this music and still feeling like
you can connect with it now as a young woman yourself,
which I think is like just incredible that there is
(20:00):
music that exists across time that speaks to black womanhood
and black girlhood in ways that are so powerful.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So, you know, you've already talked about especially how when
Jill came on the scene, it very much felt like
she was a very different picture of what we were
seeing in terms of the video vixens, and you mentioned
kind of women being the object of affection but not
necessarily owning their own desire. Can you talk more about
how both of these albums really presented a different view
of black womanhood and kind of maybe expanded the ideas
(20:34):
about who black women were.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Oh wow, Yeah, absolutely, because both Who Is Your Scott
and Mama's Guns speak to similar things at the same
time in very different ways, like just different avenues, And
it's so interesting like listening to them and being able
to relate to both of them in very different ways.
(20:58):
So it what I love is how much they take
command of their own desires and their own desirability, and
they weren't afraid er Kubandu and Jill Scott were not
afraid to be that and to ask for that and
(21:23):
to command that and to say yes, I would like
that in very different ways. Okay, because Jill, one thing
that I feel like we all love about Jill is
how she looks at the simplicities of life, the simplicities
of nature, and how she's able to compare certain things
(21:49):
like honey molasses or like a block party in Philly
or quarter waters or sense and it makes you feel full.
Jill has a way of helping you tap into your
sacral chakra as a woman and not being afraid to
(22:12):
lean into that. This is before the more recent movements
and activists who have come out and said, hey, women's
sexual desires are a part of women's sexual health and
we need to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
They are not taboo.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
And so that is such a beautiful thing to listen
to and to witness Sandwich in between these stories of
pain of love and to hear Jill seeing he loves
me and as a black woman like that will always
(22:55):
feel revolutionary. To hear a black woman claim that love
that their partner is bestowing upon them is so beautiful.
And then I think about Erka Baidu, where she's asking
for the same in a very different way on kiss
(23:15):
Me on My Neck, a song that she collaborated with
Jay Dilla for He was credited as jd on the
album which I think is a cute little like nugget,
because I don't know why he chose a certain name.
Maybe it was to like not distract, but I thought
that that was really cute.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Want you to kiss me on my neck, I want
you to breathe on my neck, and that subtlety in
a very different way, I think Erica sings about it
in a way that feels almost spiritual and then even
a different type of love. I think about AD two thousand,
(23:56):
in which she is singing from the perspective of a
Milo Diallo who was gunned down by police in the
most brutal way in two thousand and for this woman
to sing from this slain black man's perspective and say,
(24:18):
I don't want y'all to build no dilapidated buildings off
of my name and name them after me, because I
know that that is a passive, cosmetic solution quote unquote
to this greater injustice. And both of these albums talk
(24:40):
about black women's love, and I think that that specific
act of her creating a D two thousand felt like
such a great metaphor for what we've seen black women
time and time again, and that show up in all
(25:06):
of the fights, especially the fight that is for the
sake in liberation and survival and love of our people.
And so I don't even know if I answer the question,
because I feel like I've gone in so many different directions.
But that's such a testament to the vastness of womanhood
(25:30):
that these two albums really speak to.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't just one thing, right Like, I
love that there's the mix of a song about being
jealous and insecure after a breakup combined with an album
that has police brutality themes, right, Like, I think that
it is a representation of all the things that we
are thinking about in living and that real life testament
to what was going on for them at the time.
(25:55):
So I think in addition to the beautiful sounds and
the messages that we got from these albums, I also
think that we really saw a shift in the aesthetics
of a black womanhood after these albums. And you know,
I think kind of generally related to the Nioso movement,
like we saw, like you mentioned Bado with like the
head wraps and Jill really was embracing her natural hair, Like,
(26:16):
we saw a real shift into that. Can you talk
about how the Nioso move would really change what aesthetically
it looked like to be a black woman.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I don't think that I necessarily noticed too much beforehand
the women who were wearing the hair natural, but after
Jill Scott and Rikabadu and Macy Gray and all of
these women started to become more evident for me on
(26:47):
my screen as little girl watching BET, I do remember
noticing more so women embracing their natural hair, women wearing
clothes that were and related to Black Pride and the diaspora,
and the dangly earrings that weren't necessarily just the bamboos
(27:11):
and the door knockers, but also you know, ones that
were like wooden of afro picks. And it did feel
like there was a building upon of the Black Pride
movement of the sixties and seventies within this era of neo.
(27:35):
So I even think about during the Mama's Gun promotion
into it, and I don't even necessarily think this was
for promotion, because I think a lot of artists do
a lot of stunts for promotion these days, but more
so just because she wanted to everybody new cut her
hair off because she wanted to a change and she
(27:59):
wanted to embrace her bald head, and at one of
the stops for Mama's Gun Tour, she revealed her bald
head from underneath her signature rap and the crowd went wild.
And I think that is something that like that points
(28:20):
to how much our views of what is beauty, what
is black beauty, how we embrace ourselves and dress our
bodies and adorn things that speak to our own pride,
in our own how we self identify within this again
(28:46):
corridor of the early odds, where, like you said, Video
Vixen's were, you know, at the helm of what we
used to see as beauty and how we define it.
I think that like that is so powerful to just
randomly shave your head off, for people like India Iri
(29:10):
to come out and say I am not my hair
and make these bald declarations that again broke black women
out of the traditional bolt that we have been seen.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
In Darren, did you get a chance to watch the
verses with Jill Scott and Erica?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
If I do, yes, I is.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about that
because I think even it feels like an interesting juxtaposition.
While Jill and Erica are making all this music around
like self identity and kind of affirming themselves and healing
and what it feels like to be in love. They
talked about on the verses how there was still kind
(29:54):
of this competition that the industry was trying to set up,
right like that there couldn't be a Jill and an
Erica at the same time. And on the verses, I
remember Erica saying, I kind of opened the doors for Jill,
right Like, I think there was some appearance that they
wanted Erica to do. She wasn't available, and so she
suggested Jill. And that is how Jill, I think even
(30:15):
got that Jilsot moment. And so you know, I'm thinking
about that as you're talking that even as they are
trying to make these like affirming messages, the industry is
still trying to pit them against one another. And it
very much feels like the women of the Nio soul
movement had this kind of sisterhood like collaboration kind of
effort that was against it flew in the face of
(30:38):
what the industry wanted at the time.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And when you think about Neil Saul
and the message of it and the drivers behind it,
it is in opposition of mainstream music industries rules.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I think a lot of people, especially today, probably think
of Neo Saul as being old score or whatever, but really.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
It's afro futurism.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
It's experimental, it's eclectic, it's so many things, and unfortunately
competition is not one of them. Because Neo saw this community,
because that's the message behind it. And I love that
you mentioned that because even as these two albums Who
(31:29):
Is Jill Scott and Mama's Gun came out in the
same year, the criticism between the two, like the critics
absolutely tried to pick these albums against each other. Again
Jill's debut and it was beloved and rightfully so. Mama's
Gun was not only being compared to Who Is Jill Scott,
(31:50):
but it was also being compared to Boduism, which came
out in ninety seven, and critics were using mam Gun
as a way to not only pit pit those two together,
but again pit Rikabadu against Ericabaandu and er Kabahdu did
(32:11):
not let them. Ericabadu said, okay, absolutely not. Not only
am I going to celebrate Jill Scott and celebrate India,
I read and celebrate Macy Gray and celebrate all of
these other artists who have come out, But I'm also
not going to let y'all get into my head with
(32:33):
these numbers. Yes, I might have expected a a bigger
portion of the sales to come out and to surpass
by duism, but at the end of the day, I
got out everything that I needed to for my own healing,
for my own artistry. And when I go on tour,
(32:54):
I see how my fans are receiving this, and I
see that I feel lighter because I was able to
respect my own artistry. And so I think you know
that community, that self empowerment is crucial, and that is
(33:15):
why erk Abadu is who she is today, because she
allowed herself to experiment and to be open and collaborative
and accepting a warm So.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I want to stay with this message of healing because
you know, now we hear more artists are more and
much more open about like mental health and like the
struggles that they're experiencing. I think this was before that time, right,
like nobody was necessarily talking about therapy and all of
those things. But I do think, as you've alluded to,
there's some real messages of healing and affirmation that we
can find in both of these albums. Can you highlight
(33:50):
maybe a few of those healing and affirmation themes from
each of those albums?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Oh? Wow?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I'll start with Who Is Jill Scott because I think
that the overarching theme here feels like to me, love
and be loved the Jill Trow the first track on
(34:21):
the album, She is introducing herself with who and what
she loves. She loves herself, she loves poetry, she loves
her city, she loves music, and we get to experience
her through this. We get to experience what it looks
(34:45):
like to love in these very simple moments. But we
also get to experience and hear what it means to slowly,
surely walk away from love that.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Is not serving you anymore, and.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
How fluid love is and can be when we have
a good and healthy relationship with ourselves and don't allow
ourselves to be boxed in or manipulated by societal pressures,
(35:28):
which I think is such a huge thing for how
we can view dating, relationships, love, etc. In today's social
media dominant conversations. And then for Mama's Gun. I love
that Mama's Gun feels like a double Chandra, right, she
(35:53):
had just had her first son seven and within this
conversation that she talks about again love, identity, empowerment, politics,
she is equipping herself so that she can protect her son,
(36:13):
the future generation. And by protecting herself spiritually, emotionally, physically,
she's able to carry on the future generation to greater pastures,
so in higher levels that maybe she wasn't able to reach,
(36:34):
maybe she hasn't reached yet. And while also honoring the ancestors,
honoring herself and honoring the future, in honoring those feelings
that don't always feel the best, she is able to
(36:57):
show us a truth that is really why this album,
even in Jill Scott's case, Who Is Jill Scott? That
is why these two albums are able to stand the
test of time because they were born of.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Radical honesty that we.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Needed to hear and that we still need to hear.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
So, you know, Taron Edgier, you just talked about, especially
for Who Is Jill Scott, like some of these conversations
and how they are different from the things we might
see on social media. And I'm also thinking.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
About what it would be like for these.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Albums to come out today, right and thinking like what
they have even felt empowered to be as transparent and
vulnerable as they were given. You know how people would
react maybe online, like what are your thoughts around could
we get who is Jill Scott or Mama's Gun today?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I want to be so optimistic, doctor Joy, I want
to be so optimistic, but I don't know. I don't
think so, especially when we consider where the music industry
is going in how numbers dominate, their numbers driven things
have become. Unfortunately, we're getting albums that are so rich
(38:25):
in the messages they tell and even the talent that
newer neo soul artists spring, but unfortunately, I don't think
they are rising to meet the expectations of music execs,
unfortunately because they don't have the TikTok numbers, or because
(38:47):
they may not appeal quote unquote to what they think
audiences want aesthetically or sonically. Like I think about Ari
Lenux and her so much, like I think that she
is one of the most amazing newer neo soul artists
that we have today. And Shay butter Baby was so amazing,
(39:12):
it was such a great album, but the deal that
she was in with Dreamville was not serving her artistry
in the way that I think that she needed and
wanted it to and fortunately she just got out of
that and so hopefully she'll be able to create more
of the music that is of her heart and what
(39:33):
she really wants because she's aligned with Solange now. But again,
we're still hearing a lot of the influence and a
lot of the inspiration via artist like Anderson Pop. Even
Beyonce has sampled and interpolated songs from both of these albums.
(39:57):
But unfortunately, I don't know, oh if the industry as
a business really appreciates what these albums would be able
to do if they were released today. M hm.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So you mentioned Aria Lennox, and she is definitely somebody
I think about when I think about like the legacy
of Erica Vado and Jill Scott. Who are some other
artists that you think about when you think about like
people continuing to walk in these footsteps?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Oh, my goodness. I don't know if you've heard of
Ray Khalil. She is an amazing up and coming artist.
She's currently actually on tour with Anderson Park and she
sings in raps and feels so Erica Vay do code,
It's so beautiful and refreshing to see, I believe she's
(40:47):
a queer woman as well, and to hear her sing
about so many of these themes that we've mentioned on
both of these albums from her perspect as a black
queer woman is so refreshing and something that I think
we need more of and we need to hear more of,
(41:09):
and I really want her to.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Win so badly.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I think she skews a little bit more pop but
her and I say she scus a little bit more
pop right now because I think she's being pushed in
that direction a bit more as we've unfortunately been seen
with a lot of neo soul artists.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
But her debut album.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Was amazing and it felt like it spoke to so
many of these so many of these things that we
were talking about in a more airy.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Way than an earthy way.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
And I think the different levels of neo so where
we're seeing more artists play with which is really amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Who are you listening to? Doctor Joy?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
So you know, as you were talking, I was thinking
about alex Issley, but I feel like, I mean, she's
an Eisley, so I feel like She is a very
like pure r and b like crooner to me, but
it feels like she could kind of maybe play in
this neo soul kind of space.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah yeah, and I think, like I think that's also
like the beautiful thing of it, especially today, is we
are seeing more artists kind of genre blend and bend
and play in different directions and maybe they're stronger in
or you like one portion of their sound more than others,
(42:53):
And which is okay because we can pick and choose,
and that's the beauty of streaming. It has a lot
of it has a lot of pitfalls.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
At least we have the power of choice.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
So, Terran, as we wrap up, you know, I definitely
want to get some kind of quick ideas from you
about you know, for people who maybe are just now
being introduced to Mama's Gun and who is Jill Scott?
Where would you suggest they start on each of these albums.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
From the top, But I definitely start from the top.
But if I okay, okay, I'm gonna start with who
is Jill Scott? And I would say my favorite. I'm
(43:44):
gonna give them my favorite of what moves me?
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Doctor Joy. This is hard.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
I'm gonna again say slowly surely for who is Jill Scott,
because I think that it's such and affirming and just
sure self assured, for lack of a better term way
(44:15):
to say, I'm not doing this. And I don't think
that that has to be exclusive to romantic relationships. I
think that that can be for friendships. I think that
could be for relationships with job or whatever your work is,
or you know, it's such an amazing song because it
(44:37):
draws a boundary in the sand and in such a
definitive way that I have to like, I have to
give that to anyone, especially the younger kids, because I
know they like shorter songs, and it's a shorter song,
so I'm like, I'm gonna respect your attention. Spans start there,
(45:00):
and then for Mama's gun, Oh my god, Orange Moon,
Orange Moon, I have to say Orange Moon.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
I feel like it makes me cry a lot, because
you could take it several ways of her talking about
like love with her partner, but also it could be
love with herself. And you know how she shines brighter
when she sees herself because the sun is herself or
(45:33):
the mirror, and relationships are mirrors. Anyway for ourselves, but
like to hear love from the perspective of how it
makes you better and how it makes you see yourself
better and in a different light. It's so beautiful to me.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
So I think that, like both.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Of these tracks could of course relate to so many things,
but I think the again self censoredness of it all,
which so many of us black women need more of,
is a one.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I love those and I love that my answers are
very different, but not that different, right, So for Mama's Gun,
I would have to choose bag Lady, right, like I
feel like that was the Crans in the Sky before
we got Creans in the Sky, right, like the very
first song that was really talking I think about boundaries
without calling them that, right, and thinking about to how
(46:33):
we can be more self centered and how to pay
attention to what we're carrying.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
So would have to be that.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
And then for who Is Your Scott, I think it
would be the Way because that probably.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Is one of the most beautiful songs.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Still ever to have been created.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
So I just loved that song.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
I love that I wanted to give some deep cuts
for the people because I'm like to listen to the
other I know how y'all like to avoid deep cuts.
So I'm like, but I loved, I love that you
gave those because I'm like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So when you think about like the next twenty five
years of R and B and neal, So, what do
you think we have to look forward to, especially as
we think about the foundation that has been laid by
these women and many others.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Who I really especially now because we know that industry
budgets are shrinking, and with that we are seeing and
I think we're going to hear so many more self starters,
so many more people putting their music out there. I mean,
we already had so much of that in our continue
(47:39):
to have so much of that with SoundCloud, YouTube, TikTok,
just different platforms where we can find newer artists. And
I think a lot of these artists, these newer artists
are walking in the steps of neo soul. And what's
interesting is what I've been seeing is that like it
(48:01):
doesn't matter, like whether you're black or not, Like neo
soul is inspiring so many different people of different races
in backgrounds, and that just speaks to the value and
longevity of black music, of the music and the culture
that we make.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
And I think that's.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Something that we're going to continue to see.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
I think we're going to continue to.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
See artists pay homage to these albums and sample these
albums and tap these artists for their songs. I think
about er Kabadou, she stays on a younger artist album,
she has a really great song, a couple of great
songs with dram and I think that we're going to
(48:48):
see more of that, more of the younger generations tapping
directly into these artists to not only sample, but also
lend their voices and ears to them. But yeah, I
think that in twenty five years, we are going to
be having the same conversation about Solange's albums and about
(49:12):
ari linux albums, and so many of these artists who
they're well established of course, that are of younger generations
who are slowly but surely getting their flowers from us.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
This has been so much fun to chat with you
about this here and I love the things that you
shared about these albums. Can you please remind us where
can we stay connected with you? What is your website,
your subseac and your social media handles?
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Absolutely, thank you so much. This has been so fun,
Doctor Joy. Y'all can find me at Underscore tearing it
Up on TikTok Instagram and that other website that that
man has taken over that probably will be deactivating. So
(50:02):
and you also can find me on substack at let's
Stay Connected dot substack dot com or on Terrenfinlay dot com.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
And yeah, thank you so much, Doctor Joy. Once again,
thank you, Darren.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
I'm so glad Taran was able to join me for
this conversation to celebrate the timeless artistry of Eric Abadu
and Jill Scott and to remind us of how their
music continues to hold space for black women's softness, sensuality,
and evolution. To learn more about Arran and her work,
visit the show notes at Therapyfro Blackgirls dot com SLAS
Session four thirty three, and don't forget to text this
(50:43):
episode or two of your girls right now and tell
them to check out the episode. Did you know that
you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or
suggestions for the podcast. If you have movies or books
you'd like us to review, or have thoughts about topics
you'd like to hear us discuss, drop us a message
at Memo dot FM's slash Therapy for Black Girls and
let us know what's on your mind. We might just
(51:04):
feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a
therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow
us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come
on over and join us in our Patreon For more
exclusive updates and behind the scenes content. You can join
us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
(51:27):
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaetubu and Tyree Rush.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
Take good care.
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