October 29, 2025 • 49 mins
Welcome back to the second episode of our “Sibling Sit-Down” series, where we’re exploring sibling relationships and all the factors that shape the emotional dynamics created between them. Today, we're joined by Támara Hill, licensed clinical child and family therapist who has built an online platform by making mental health information accessible to the masses. We’re getting into questions like, what happens when siblings fall into familiar roles? How can parents nurture healthy relationships among their children? And what can adult siblings do to heal old wounds and strengthen their bonds? With so many elements in the mix, no one set of siblings has the same relationship as another.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four thirty five of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. Welcome back to the
second episode of our Siblings sit Down series, where we're
(01:18):
exploring sibling relationships and all the factors that shape the
emotional dynamics created between them. Today, I'm pleased to be
joined by Tamra Hill, licensed clinical child and family therapist,
who has built an online platform by making mental health
information accessible to the masses. We're getting into questions like
what happens when siblings fall into familiar roles, how can
(01:40):
parents nurture healthy relationships among their children, and what can
adult siblings do to healed old wounds and strengthen their bonds.
With so many elements in the mix, no one set
of siblings has the same relationship as another. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it
with us on social media using the TVG in session
(02:02):
or I join us. All are in our Patreon channel
to talk more about the episode. You can join us
at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's
our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Today's camera, Ah, thank you for having me. Can you
start by telling us a little bit more about yourself
and your practice, Like, what is your practice looking like
(02:25):
these days? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Absolutely, I have tons of families right now in my practice,
so I'm seeing a little bit under two hundred people
a month coming into my office asking for family therapy.
I've always done children, teens, maybe families here and there,
but as of the past two years and a little
bit after the COVID time, I've been working with families
(02:47):
and trying to help them communicate better. There's tons of
sibling rivalry, tons of parental alienation. There is also custody battles,
and so my practice right now is fully family based
therapy and treatment at this time.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So that's so interesting. So I feel like kind of
historically in the field, family counseling was not something you
saw a lot happening, Like, of course, there were therapists
who were doing it, But it's sounding like there's a
real uptick, especially in your practice, and it sounds like
in particular after the pandemic, is there anything that you
can point to, I mean, beyond like the trauma that
we all experience in a pandemic. Are there particular themes
(03:26):
that you're seeing kind of related to a post pandemic
kind of life that are coming up for your families.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Oh? Yeah, I think the major theme that I'm seeing
right now is we didn't really know each other before
the pandemic. We were stuck together for so many months,
and now I realize I don't feel the same way
about you that I did when we didn't have to
be in lockdown. So that's kind of like a common
theme for my practice right now. It's how do we
build that loving relationship with our children? How do we
(03:54):
build that loving relationship between siblings or at least somehow
developed healthy skills after the pandemic. It just seemed like
the pandemic did something psychological to most families, and so
now they're just searching for treatment and options.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we have been seeing more around
like sibling relationships, right. You know, I think there's a
lot of course in the field about the relationship you
have with your parents and how that, you know, really
leads to different things in your life. But I think
there's more focus on the sibling relationships now. And it
sounds like you are seeing a lot of siblings as
a part of your work. So talk to me about
(04:31):
like some of the common things that are coming up
in terms of sibling pairs or sibling dynamics in your work.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah. Absolutely. Currently I have I'm going to say maybe
about seven cases that are just about sibling rivalry, and
it's my sessions with them are mainly focused on better communication,
really trying to manage the internal desire to compete and
win some kind of favoritism in the eyes of parents. Also,
(05:00):
let's see is a big one for me right now,
and kids and siblings just trying to communicate even when
they're feeling like maybe the other sibling is the best one,
or maybe the other sibling is favored in mom and
dad's eyes. Trying to help those siblings communicate in a
healthy way and support each other and not try to
tear each other down. Very poor communication is another thing
(05:23):
that I'm dealing with. I'm not able to talk to
my sibling. I'm not able to get on the same
level with them and work through things. We fight. We
physically fight, we verbally fight, we ostracize each other, and
we can't even get along at home, much less in school.
So I'm seeing a lot of rivalry that happens in
(05:43):
the school system too, and siblings, if we're talking about
ADO lessons, they're in high school, they have different friend
groups and they don't engage with each other. It's like
they're kids that have never met each other before. And
that's a scary thing when you break it down.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And it does kind of feel like the language around
sibling rivalry has been kind of in the lexicon for forever, right,
And so is that a natural part of what you
would expect with sibling dynamics is that there will be
some kind of rivalry or are there specific factors that
impact whether, like there will be this sense of a
rivalry between siblings.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
That's such a great question, and I get that question
all the time from parents. I really think it depends
on the risk factors within a family. So if we're
dealing with a family that has generational trauma, intergenerational trauma,
generational challenges in terms of poor communication, abusive behavior, domestic violence,
(06:43):
drug abuse, untreated or poorly treated mental illness, all of
those risk factors I think kind of sets up kids
to have a really hard time when they have a sibling.
So I would say most siblings are going to have
a pretty quote unquote normal relationship with each other if
the household is stable. But when we're dealing with an
(07:04):
unstable family dynamic, it kind of sets the kids up
in the family to have a sibling rivalry. Even research
on sibling rivalries suggests that if you have siblings who
are being parented wrong, or if you have siblings who
have permissive parents, which means they're not as firm in
terms of boundaries and rules, you're likely to run into
(07:27):
kids who are far beyond sibling rivalry. We're talking about
we need to get therapy because our kids are not
functioning cohesively. So yeah, I would say things are pretty
much normal rivalry until there's so many risk factors the
kid is not very well supported. Sibling rivalry is the
end result of that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And it seems like Tom, like the sense of Ribberry
is like in some ways like a fight for independence
and like who am I in this family? Right? Like
everybody wants to be kind of seen and you know,
validated for who they are, And so it sounds like
that's what you're talking about in terms of like the
normal like who am I? And like how do I
differentiate myself? But what you're talking about seeing is something
(08:08):
that is beyond that, in terms of maybe jealousy or
something that is beyond just like I'm claiming my stake
to who I am in the family.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
One hundred percent. That's kind of the quote unquote normal road.
You know. I would say, the quote unquote abnormal road
would be I'm fighting my sibling and there's really no
reason for this. I'm just angry or I'm jealous or
you know, something of that nature. That's an issue.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, So you talked about permissive parenting and kind of
like the lack of boundaries being one thing that might
impact whether there is like this increased rivalry. Are there
other things that parents are doing or should be on
the lookout for that might set up their children to
not have like maybe the strongest relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I think language is key. Language is key. Sometimes when
I'm seeing an entire family first session, I'll hear the parents,
you know, unintentionally mentioned things that can kind of put
siblings in opposition forward each other. So things like, you know,
Billy's always been the smartest kid in the family. He
knows everything. You know, every time you turn around, He's
(09:14):
given us facts about certain things. He's just a wonderful kid.
Something like that kind of causes the other child in
the family to think, well, wait a minute, what about me.
Language is key, and I see that a lot in
family sessions. Even when a parent is just describing maybe
that siblings temperament or that siblings mental health challenges, it
(09:36):
can sound like the parent is putting one kid up
here and you know, the other kid down here. I
had a session a couple days ago with the family
that kind of dealt with this, and dad did not
mean to hurt the feelings of his son, but he
did say something like, you know, my brother's been the
smartest in this family. I was next to just as intelligent,
(09:56):
and my daughter is also highly intelligent. I mean, the
three of us we just click because we think the same. Well,
that left to sun out and so the son and
I had a lot of time to process how that
broke him down and how that hurt him. So language
is key, unintentional language, how you describe things as important
(10:18):
and talking about that other siblings mental and behavioral health problems,
the language there also needs to be carefully altered. So
language is key.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So what the recommendations would you give to parents around you? Know, like,
how do you balance that? Is it like if you're
offering a compliment for one, you want to also make
sure you're offering compliments for the others, Like how do
you balance that?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Oh that's so hard. I wish I had like a
clinical answer for that, Doctor Joe. I'm just going to
say this humbly. I don't know if I have the answer,
and I don't know if many therapists who work with
families have that answer. I think it may just depend
on the quote unquote temperature of the family. So if
you have a really vulnerable family where there's tons of
(11:04):
risk factors. There's anger, there's high conflict, there's untreated mental
health challenges. You want to be careful again with how
you're describing things and being careful with labels, maybe saying
something like, Billy's really good at A, B and C,
but so is Tommy. So like, I have two wonderful
kids kids, you know, they have different strengths. But Billy
(11:27):
knows how to do this, Timmy knows how to do that.
So maybe doing that can be a little bit helpful,
or just staying away from comparison altogether, I think that's
your safest bet. Yeah, So what.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Do we know about the sibling relationships and how they
form us into who we are? So again we talked
about you know, there's so much about like your parents
and your caregivers and how their responses to you impact
how you show up in relationships later. What about our
relationships with our siblings. What do we know about our
adult selves based on maybe our early lives with siblings.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, you know, there's research that highly supports the idea
that the sibling relationship is the most significant relationship in
that child's life, that besides the parent relationship, the sibling
relationship is that one relationship where we learn how to interact,
we learn how to think and feel, and we also
(12:20):
learn how to be in relation to another person. So
if we're dealing with sibling rivalry and it doesn't seem
to be the kind of normal sibling rivalry that we're
used to, if we're talking about jealousy and competition and
really trying to hurt that other sibling and take their
identity or minimize them or be very condescending every chance
(12:42):
they get, that's going to set up that same pattern
of relationships for that sibling for the rest of their lives.
The same gender sibling is often the most important sibling.
So in other words, if you have a boy, the
brother is very significant according to research, in that child's life.
(13:03):
So if there's you know, issues in that relationship throughout
the development of that child or adolescent adult, relationships are
going to be just as problematic because that's how they've
learned to engage, that's how they have learned how to communicate.
So there's no communication in a healthy way. And so
as that individual grows older, they think it's okay to compete,
(13:25):
they think it's okay to be hurt or minimized or
you know, have this angry and hostile disposition to the world.
Their adult relationships are just going to be a little
bit rocky because that most important relationship has been rocky
as well.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And for people who maybe don't grow up with siblings
but have maybe close relationships with cousins, or you know,
many of us have extended families where kind of everybody
is like a play sister or something like that. Do
those relationships mimic what you see with siblings or is
that different?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I would say that's different. And honestly, we lack the
clinical research that can help us tease a part if
there's similarity or differences. Even in my preparation for my
own YouTube channel and for this conversation, I didn't see
much on children and a family and their extended family.
(14:18):
We're lacking the research, doctor Joy, and we need to
get that information because it's going to help us understand
the sibling relationship as well. So we're a little bit behind.
Just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
More from our conversation after the break. So, as I'm
listening to you talk, Tamra, I'm thinking about a conversation
we had early on in the podcast with doctor and
Louise Lockhart about like coole regulation, right, and how so
(14:50):
much of how our children show up in the world
is really based on how well we do regulating ourselves
and our own emotions. And so when you talk about
things like like favorite or is there a favorite child?
Or who's the problem chaw in the family? I think
so much of that does come from like what the
parents are saying, maybe consciously, but probably a lot of
(15:11):
it is subconscious. Can you talk about, like what kinds
of things parents need to be aware of so that
they are not playing into these favoritism kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Oh yeah, I think this is a very broad question,
so I'm going to mention a few things. It's a
really good question because sometimes families will come into session
and ask me, Hey, Taramar, how do I manage this dynamic?
I think just being aware again of language, being aware
of what's the temperament of my child, and do I
(15:45):
need to be careful with how I talk about what's
going on in their lives with the other siblings. So
I'll give you an example. It's kind of like, if
you have two adolescent daughters, you may not want to
highlight that the sixteen year old tends to be more
mature than the thirteen year old because the sixteen year
old had a better academic life, or had better friends,
(16:09):
or you know, they seem to manage their emotions better.
You want to be careful comparing the two and highlighting
that one child is inherently better than the other child. There,
you know, I think parents fall into this trap of
I'm closest to my daughter because my daughter is more
like me. I get that a lot in therapy as well.
(16:31):
Sometimes dads will say, you know, my son, Michael and
I we're just like this because we tend to be
the most similar. And because of that, the parent automatically
leans toward that child. So Dad may lean more towards Michael,
and just about everything punishments favoritism. How he showers that
(16:51):
son with love and affection, The PEP talks that he
gives that son, the eye contact and body language around
that son, all of the can send these nonverbal cues
to the other child that I love Michael, maybe a
little bit too much and maybe way more than I
love you also too. I see this in clinical settings
(17:14):
where one sibling will be the most difficult, why because
of a mental illness, because of a behavioral problem, because
of challenges academically, and that'll cause maybe one parent to
unintentionally lean towards the child that has little to no challenges,
and that leaves this child feeling like maybe I am defected,
(17:37):
Maybe I'm dysfunctional. Maybe I'm the black sheet. Maybe I'm
the scapegoat in the family. Everybody blames me because I'm
the problem here and my brother Michael isn't. So I'm
the devil, He's the angel. So parents have a really
important role within the sibling dynamic. How do I communicate
with a child that isn't necessarily doing as well as
(18:01):
maybe Michael is, And how do I help that other
child understand that even though you may have challenges, or
even though you're not as mature, even though something's going
on here, it doesn't mean Michael is better than you.
So really having some self awareness inside the parent, having
that self awareness of how do I treat both my kids?
(18:23):
Am I separating them? Am I punishing this one more
than the other? And if so? Why? So? That introspection
is key.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
As we're talking, of course as adults, camera I'm reminded
that like children, of course, don't have the same reasoning
and like lodging that we do as adults, and they
come up with all kinds of fantastic stories about like
why something is happening in the family, and so, you know,
I think about something you just said. Maybe think about
like if there is a child who has maybe significant
(18:52):
health issues in a family, and there's a lot of
resources and energy that go to that child, and then
the other child may be feeling less special, right, so
all of these things that I think as parents and caregivers,
like you have to be mindful of that children. And
you're thinking like, oh, like they know that I love
them kind of thing, right, But they don't. I don't
know what kinds of stories they're creating about, like why
(19:14):
so and so get so much attention?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yes, that's so so true. Could I mention a theory
I think that will kind of fit well here, doctor Joy,
you're probably well aware of this theory. It's the drama triangle.
And this triangle I will try to send you some
information so in case people who are watching can look
it up and kind of delve into that and use
(19:37):
it in the family dynamic. But the drama triangle is
pretty interesting because it happens in the midst of sibling relationships,
and it also happens in parent child relationships where there's
always a victim. In this triangle, there's a victim, there's
a persecutor. So that's the individual in the family who's
constantly creating the problems. They're pointing fingers, you know. They
(20:00):
tend to be the most in your face family member.
And then we also have the rescuer, who is that
individual who swoops in and saves the day. If we're
talking about siblings, sometimes the sibling who is the favored
tends to be the rescuer, and they tend to be
the hero in the sibling dynamic. They're the sibling that
(20:21):
has the better job, makes the most money, tends to
be the most mature, has gotten married first. That rescuer
child has done everything right. And so if there's a
family issue where there's a quote unquote victim that is
being ostracized, that's being bullied, that's being harmed, that good
sibling or that rescuer sibling swoops in to save that victim.
(20:45):
And then the child who is less favored, So the
other sibling tends to be the one who is blamed
for the problems in the family, so basically the black sheet.
So that's the triangle. Is an interesting dynamic because the
rescuing sibling swoops in saves the day, they get the
most love, affection, attention, support, even financial support according to research,
(21:09):
and the other sibling kind of stays in that black
sheep role and doesn't get a chance to maybe prove
themselves to that family dynamic. It's a sad triangle when
you look at it and you really delve in to
what it means.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Thank you for Shannon, and I had not heard about that,
so I'm interested to read more about that. So, you know,
I think you just bring up a great example that
makes me think about, like, well, what happens when these
kids then grow up?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
You know? So, I think a lot of people think,
in an ideal world, you have these very close relationships
with your siblings and your first best friends kind of thing.
But sadly we know that that is not always the case.
So what kinds of things impact the kind of relationship
you have with your sibling as an adult?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Mm hmm. I'm going to highlight jealousy and envy. That
tends to be really huge. Jealousy, I think in the
envy they're normal emotions, common emotion, so maybe I should
kind of separate those. For more of a morbid jealousy
or more of a pathological jealousy where the sibling who
is the jealous envious one of the other sibling, they
(22:12):
tend to be on this war path and research supports
this as well. If you have a sibling who's jealous
as a child, jealous as an adolescent, and it has
it wavered and then continues to be jealous and envious,
even though there's been therapy, there's been positive reinforcement, there's
been parenting alterations, whatever the case, If that child adolescent
(22:37):
continues that jealousy of the other sibling up into adulthood,
it's going to set that other sibling up for a
series of negative experiences because that jealous envious sibling is
really putting that other sibling in in a vulnerable position,
and that other sibling, the one who is envied, is
in that role and they're stuck and they don't know
(22:58):
how to get out. Sometimes can feel like a trap
because they want to have a good relationship with that
other sibling, but they can't do it because the jealous
sibling has slammed the door and said, you know what,
I don't like you because of AB and C, or
I don't you're not my kind of individual because of A,
B and C. And that puts that other sibling in
a place where they're most likely to have emotional voids.
(23:22):
They're most likely to get into abusive relationships because they
can't necessarily see the signs and the behaviors of some
thing's wrong in this relationship. And they are also more
likely to struggle in other areas of their lives. Academically,
you positions that they are pursuing in their career, They're
likely to have low self esteem and low feelings of
(23:43):
self efficacy. There's going to be a self fulfilling prophecy
with this sibling who is envieed. There's just so many
avenues that they can end up down and it's all
because of the sibling who has made life really difficult
all the way from childhood, adolescents into adulthood, a very
sad and depressing dynamic.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, you know something we have not talked about that
I think is also a really important part of conversations
when you're talking about siblings is birth order. So there's
been so much, so much conversation, it feels like, yeah,
maybe within the last two to three years around like
oldest daughters, right, Like we see a lot of like,
oh the oldest daughter and the means XYZ and my family.
(24:24):
Can you talk to us about birth order and like
what does that mean in the context of family dynamics?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Oh goodness. So the reason why I'm laughing, doctor Joy
is because I was just doing some research lesson on
birth order for my own video. So that's coming out
on siblings and I I'll say this first before I
get into birth order. Research cannot find a causal relationship
(24:50):
between birth order and how that child's life is going
to turn out, whether it's going to be positive or negative.
There's a association, but we don't understand the causal link necessarily.
Those are two different things. So birth order is interesting
because the older sibling automatically takes on that role of protector,
(25:14):
hero rescuer, you know, and parents interestingly automatically assigned to
that older sibling. And I'm this way in my own family.
I'll tell you that in a second. But that older
sibling tends to if you ask me, the parent tends
to have a higher expectation for that older sibling, no
(25:34):
matter whether or not that older sibling can hold up
the end of the bargain. So, in other words, that
older sibling may not be necessarily mature enough to guide
or to be the leader of the family. But just
because they're the firstborn, that expectation, that parent holds that
expectation rather high, and that eldest child just sometimes they
(25:55):
fold under that. Other times they succeed, but for the
most part, I think they kind of fall. Now I'll
give you an example my family. I have two brothers.
I'm the middle child. My younger sibling gets on my
last nerve. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you that,
and he gets on my nerves because he plays that
role of baby. He's the last child, so he plays
(26:16):
that role of the birth order, role of the baby
in the family, and so he does things that are excused.
He's really not the one mom is looking at when
things need to get done. He's the one that kind
of receives while the older siblings kind of feel like
the slave. I'm the middle child, so I got a
lot of love and affection, but at the same time
(26:38):
I'm looked at as the sibling that is there to
kind of hold the family and the siblings together. And
I think that has more to do with my gender.
It's more of a gender thing. You're the girl, you
know what I mean, Doctor Joy, You're the girl, so
you know you're gonna hold the family together. You're gonna
be the thinker, the emotional one. And then of course
my older brother, he's the one kind of left the
(27:00):
nest very quickly. But I think he folded under the
stress of being the older sibling, and so for many
years he did not talk to my mom, and I
think there was a lot of resentment that he had
to be the older sibling who was kind of left
out of the equation when my mom had myself and
(27:23):
my younger sibling. Not intentionally, it was just birth order
and it happened that way. I think a lot of
older kids go on to feel resentment because maybe they
were born at a time when mom and dad were youngest.
Maybe they were born at a time when mom and
dad didn't have the tools and the skills, and then
(27:43):
here comes the younger siblings and they're getting the best
of mom and dad. So I think older siblings they
have a huge calling, But I'm not so sure they
all stand up under the pressure. I'm starting to see
the older I get in my sibling dynamic, even working
with families who are going through this as well, I'm
starting to see that the older sibling needs sometimes the
(28:07):
most love, the most compassion, because a lot of them
feel like I had to leave, I had to spread
my wings, I had to become independent, and maybe a
little bit too soon.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So so many thoughts are running through my hands, Hammer
because you run off some excellent points. So one, I
think there's lots of conversation around like how every child
in a family gets a different set of parents, right,
so you know, the first child gets like the brand
new like what in the world are we doing, Like
we're just trying to keep this baby alive? Parents, And
(28:41):
then by the time you get to second, third, later
children like you have maybe a little bit better since
of you know what you're doing, and so you get
a different set of parents. And so I do think
it's really interesting when you talk to like sibling groups
that like some of the memories they have or their
experiences of parents are very different because you in all
got different sets of parents. I really appreciate that you
(29:04):
brought up the whole. You are the middle child, but
you're the oldest daughter. Because I was gonna ask, is
there some gender piece around whether that oldest child is
a boy or a girl, you know, if we're using
kind of binary terms right, like I do think, at
least antcdotally, I don't know that there's any evidence that
the oldest daughters. It feels like, even if they do buckle,
(29:27):
there is more of a sense of like, you are
expected to do this, whereas maybe oldest boy children are
kind of like they can make more mistakes or whatever,
but like oldest girls are kind of just expected to
have it all together.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Oh my god, yes, oh my god. My So my
mom had a I'm not gonna say it's not a
mini stroke, but it's like a left hemispheric stroke where
the right side of her body because of a blood
clot and because of high blood pressure, just stopped working.
So she had a stroke in February. It was a
huge traumatic situation for myself and my siblings. But I
(30:04):
think for the first time in my life, I saw
birth order play out because as the middle daughter and
the younger brother and older brother, they were there as
much as I was. But as the middle daughter, I
was expected to talk to the doctors, to comfort mom,
to caregive, to fix the dinners, for my siblings, to
(30:29):
hug them and tell them it's going to be okay,
to hold their hand, even down to my brother for example,
even down to my brother needed a work excuse for
coming to the hospital. He's like, I don't know what
to do, and so I said, I'll do it for you.
So I recognize for the first time that I'm dependent
on all the time. And it's because I'm the middle girl.
(30:50):
I cannot take that role of sitting back and relaxing
in a way. I've been expected to just step up.
And I think a lot of females siblings.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Go through that. So when we see like high profile,
super successful sibling pairs like a Beyonce in a Solange
or Venus and Serena Williams, how do you make sense
of like this kind of super successful identity and like
shared ambition that kind of comes out of one household.
Like what are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
When I think of Venus and Serena, They're awesome, Like
they're just wonderful, even Beyonce and her sister. I my
experience in treating sisters who are both successful. I think
they share the power in the family. But again, because
they're females, I think they're kind of leaned on, maybe
(31:45):
more so than two sons in the family. The siblings
who are females, they're kind of looked at, and especially
if they're successful as two wonder womans and the family
boys are not looked at in that way for some reason.
I think, again it's just the gender thing. It's females,
and if they're successful, they're really leaned on within the family.
(32:08):
There can also be some jealousy between them and competition.
You know, maybe the Serena Williams and a sister dynamic,
a family dynamic is the one who is the most
praised because she's married and has a daughter or now
two children, and she's this powerful female model. Maybe the
(32:28):
venus of the family who isn't married yet on our way,
but isn't married yet isn't really as powerful until she
says I do so. I think there's some dynamics there too,
But for the most part, if you have two successful
females or sisters in a family, that is some kind
of power dynamic.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
And you know, Mestina Knowles has been very publican talking
about how she started therapy with the girls very early on,
because you know, Beyonce was already kind of on her
way to kind of being successful and really wanted to
make sure that Solanja had a place to talk about
that and that you know, they could really kind of
get ahead of any issues. And it feels like that
is something because you know, at least they're talking about
(33:05):
it right, like they are able to kind of put
these issues on the table, which I think is more
than maybe some families will do. And then you realize
that there is all this jealousy in inv like you mentioned.
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Absolutely. I'm not sure that we as a field of
psychology have the research there to really treat these kind
of families. So it's like, what's the theoretical orientation, what's
the road we need to go down with these siblings
when it comes to that sibling dynamic. Do we use
Bowinian therapy, you know? Do we use structural family therapy,
do we use cognitive behavior therapy? Just what is needed
(33:41):
as a context to treat these families. I'm not sure
we have the research, doctor Joy, unless you know of something,
but I die that exactly we're lacking and we need
we need a lot more research.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, more from our conversation after the break, we've talked
a lot about you know, like I think family therapy
in terms of children in the family, But what does
it look like Tamera to work on like healing sibling
(34:16):
wounds as adults. So let's say there is a pair
of siblings that comes to you and they say, you know,
we didn't have the best relationship as children, but we
really want to have a stronger relationship. Now, what does
it look like to heal those wounds as adults.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Absolutely, when I get these families in my practice, the
first step I want them to take, and I often
encourage them to take, is to start fresh. Saying goodbye
to that history is important because if we're still holding
on to what happened back then, then it kind of
cuts us off from closing that door and moving ahead
(34:51):
in a healthy way. Seeing each other as adults is
also important, so perception of reality. There's often when it
comes to sibling relationships, there's often a distortion of reality
in terms of favoritism and who was the best child,
and who was the most successful, and who was the
most praised. A sibling may feel like where you were
mom and Dad's favorite, and the so called a favorite
(35:13):
may say, no, you are mom and Dad's favorite. So
there's some distortion of reality there. We have to kind
of shut that door, slam that door, lock it up,
and say, Okay, that's not important. Let's focus on the
now and move ahead. Let's see each other as adults.
Let's figure out how do we connect as adults. What
is it that we need as adults? What do we
need to do to become close knit individuals in this
(35:36):
scary world. Once you can do that, I think you
can then move into skill building. So how should we
be communicating? How often should we be communicating? You know,
should I call you if you cross my mind or
if I feel you on my heart for the day?
What do I need as your sibling to give you
the love that I couldn't give you when we were younger?
(35:58):
What places of your life can I impact? Can I
play a powerful role so that we can rebuild our
relationship and be the strong siblings that we should have
been when we were younger? So staying in contact with
that sibling understanding I can throw and hear the love
languages of your sibling. Do they need your physical affection.
(36:20):
Do they need an email? Do they need a text message?
What is it that they need from you? So figuring
that out and then again slamming that door on history
and starting over and starting fresh. It's it's humility. It's
saying I love you sis, or I love you brother,
and I want us to start fresh and try to
get along for once in our lives. And what does
(36:41):
that consist of? So being inquisitive, being humble, being modest,
being ready to move forward.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So it sounds like you're saying you would not go
too much into this, like okay, let's unpack this. Who
was the favorite? Or like you got preferential treatment from
mom and dad and I didn't, Like we're really wanting
to kind of just move past that and start almost
with a fresh relationship as opposed to really kind of
undoing or like trying to make peace with the relationships
that we maybe had asked it.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I can see disaster there, Like you're gonna have a
few sessions where you're gonna be fighting and out or
there's gonna be some kind of well remember this and
remember that. I think it's best to just start fresh.
And if there's some major traumas, maybe going back to
look at that, so like if there was child physical abuse,
(37:30):
if there was sexual abuse in the family, if there
was PTSD as a result of a tragedy, then maybe
you can go back and pull that into the now.
But I really think we should start fresh and move
forward from there.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
You've already given us a little bit of an example
in your own life with you know, your mom's health conditions.
But what kinds of things would you offer to people,
especially as you know many of us have aging parents
and thinking about like caregiving among siblings. Can you talk
about like how how sibling relationships evolve, and like what
kinds of conversations to have with your siblings as you
(38:06):
are talking about caregiving for aging parents.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, oh my god, that's such a great question, doctor Joy.
That's about five or six episodes, because there's so much
to talk about. I think the most important thing when
it comes to caretaking is really looking at the sibling
dynamic and having a frank conversation who is that sibling,
(38:29):
Who is that child that mom and dad looks up to,
or looks to, or goes to or feel safest with,
that can make the decisions. This is not about who's better,
who's greater, who's more competent. It's more so about who
is that child who can help mom or dad or
both feel comfortable in aging, feel comfortable in caretaking. You know,
(38:53):
when my mom had her struck, my older sibling, my
older brother, he knew that he could step in and support,
But then he also knew that my mom tended to
trust me more because I was the female. I was
the one who understood the women issues. I was the
one who understood those deep conversations only my mom and
I could have. Doesn't mean she didn't love her son,
(39:14):
doesn't mean my older brother is incompetent. But the dynamic
made it so that I had to be the one
to step up, and I was the one that did
most of the work, most of the talking to the doctors,
most of the advanced directive's work, most of the power
of attorney work. It's important to be honest and not
(39:35):
allow your ego to get in the way when you're caregiving,
because I think once your ego gets the way, your
mind's gonna put you in a track because you're going
to start thinking, well, they love him more, they love
her more, or they think I'm incompetent, or they don't
trust me. Being aware of the fact that it isn't
about who's the best, It's about mom or dad or both,
(39:59):
and how do we care for them, how do we
push them forward, how do we get them the things
that they need? Who do they trust the most. That's
a really hard road to go down because you're going
to have to do a lot of self examination, and
you may feel a little bit hurt. Yeah, you may
feel a little bit hurt, but I think keeping in mind,
we're in this together. We have to help mom or
(40:21):
dad or both, and we need the strongest sibling to
step up and take the lead role. And I'm going
to get behind my sibling and support. My older brother
got behind me and just support it. And I love
that when I couldn't do something, he was right there
to just kind of jump in and save the day,
(40:41):
or he was there to back me up. And so
figuring out those pieces of the puzzle is going to
be very very significant when it comes to caregiving. Who
is that main person who can be there to back
up and support and who can be there to just
kind of take the business part of caregiving dynamic where
you're going to have to work together. It's a team
(41:03):
approach rather than an approach that has that favorite sibling
or that best person in the forefront. It's a team approach.
How do we fit the pieces together here so we
can say we can help, we can support.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, and this feels like one of those conversations that
depending on what the sibling dynamic is, right, like if
there are all these unresolved issues about like who was
the favorite, right, or if we have not made peace
with all of this, it feels like this could be
like a very difficult thing to talk about, like who's
going to be like the spokesperson, maybe who's going to
take more of the financial burden? You know, like it
(41:39):
feels like there's a lot that could go wrong, so
to speak. An these conversations depending on what the relationship
is like with your sibling.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yes, oh my god. Yes, Especially when you're talking about
like executors of an estate or you're talking about a
power of attorney or who's going to be managing all
the business parts of the puzzle, that can be very intimidating.
And for other siblings, they may feel like we're going
to be pushed to the side. We're not going to
get our inheritance. We're not going to be treated fairly.
We're not going to be able to make a life
(42:07):
or death decision on mom or dad. So you know,
that dynamic in and of itself is just really intimidating
for most siblings. There's trauma there too.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah. Yeah, you know, thinking about We've had so many
incredible guests on the podcast, and we talk with the
death doula who also works with families, right, So it
feels like using some services like that could also be
good to bring in, especially if there are kind of
tricky dynamic. Somebody who can come in and say, Okay,
who's gonna do this, you know, and really can get
people on the same page.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I agree, that's really fantastic. I didn't think of that.
You brought something up that I need to kind of
store in the back of my mind, doctor Joy. It's
awesome to have somebody like that that can just hold
your hand and walk you through this, right, no, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
So this conversation is going to be coming out closer
to the holidays camera, and so I am also wondering
for people who are maybe don't have the best relationships,
they're navigating kind of tough sibling relationships. What advice do
you have about navigating the holiday season.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
M oh geez. I think it just depends on the dynamics.
So if you're a family member who has contemplated going
no contact, or you have been no contact, I think
it's important to just decide how am I going to communicate?
How am I going to navigate this? If somebody reaches
out to me, am I going to respond? If somebody
(43:27):
sends me a gift to be a mail, am I
going to send it back to them? Am I going
to say thank you? Am I going to call them?
Am I going to go to an event? Or not?
If you're not grappling with the no contact issue, I
think if you just have a dysfunctional or toxic or
unhealthy kind of family dynamic, it's important to number one,
have coping skills if you're going to deal with family
(43:49):
members who are difficult. So figure out what do I
need to do. Do I need to show up really
early and leave within fifteen minutes of getting there? Do
I need to hug everybody, say Merry Christmas? Are happy things,
get out of there? Or do I sit with them
and just not say a lot, just engage and kind
of fill around for where I need to be or
not be. Figuring out what your role is and how
(44:12):
to manage your role within that family dynamic or sibling
dynamic is important because if there's sibling rivalry that's been unresolved,
if there's toxicity within the family dynamic, you want to
make sure that you stay in the outskirts of that.
So again, coping skills, how long you're going to stay,
what you're going to talk about, not talk about, what's
(44:32):
off limits, how to set healthy boundaries and finding that
point person, should I stay near Grandma half the time
that I'm visiting, you know, should I support in the
kitchen and just stay out of the deep conversations in
the living room. So just having a plan beforehand and
you know, humbly and modestly walking through that whole thing.
(44:54):
I don't think you can really prepare. You kind of
have to have a little bit of a plan and
then see how it goes from there.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I think that that's always the best strategy, right
because you don't know like what unknowns are gonna pop
off during the holidays. But having a plan of you know,
you know your family right, like you know specifically how
things go, and so having a plan of how long
you're going to stay, who are you going to talk to,
what kinds of things are awful limits. I think you
bring up some excellent points there.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Thank you. Yeah, it has saved me in the past.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah. So when you think about like the clients that
you've worked with, or just the research that you've read,
or you know, things you've engaged with, what kinds of
things do you think are like some of the secrets
to sibling relationships that are really strong.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
I would say we tend to not look at the
fact that humility is key. I think sometimes in sibiling relationships,
if you're feeling like that other sibling is better than
you or smarter than you, or they're getting favoritism, and
even when you don't see that happening, you don't feel
that way. Just having that sibling relationship, having humility to
kind of keep you and another sibling grounded is key.
(46:00):
And I'll use myself as an example again, if I
weren't humble towards my older sibling, I think we'd have
a really hard time. Because number one, I'm a psychotherapist
and I study the mind, and I studied the science
of people, and so he's always guarded, like are you
reading me? But addressing our differences in a humble way
and loving him in a humble way, taking off my
(46:21):
therapist's hat, thrown it way over there, and just being
that humble sibling in need of our older brother has
really taken us a very long way. Of siblings, we
get along now, I think, more than we had when
we were adolescents. My brother's twelve years older than me,
so you know, when I was ten and he was
like twenty one twenty two, we didn't mesh very well.
So now that we're both adults, life has changed us
(46:47):
and experience has changed us. And so my approach to
him is just in a humble way. And that's what
keeps us really really together. When I'm doing clinical work
with siblings, Modest humility, open communication, apologizing when you've done
something wrong, and offering that unconditional love and support goes
(47:10):
a very long way. Loving your sibling without those strings
attached means so so much, and I think we we
fail to recognize that those things are significant. They can
take you a long way and your relationship with your sibling.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Thank you so much for that, tamra I think that
will be very helpful for lots of siblings and sibling
relationships that may be listening to our podcast. So let
us know where can we stay connected with you, Tamra.
What is your website and your YouTube channel? Where can
people find more from you?
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Thank you so much for having me. By the way,
doctor Droy, this was great. You can find me on
my YouTube channel. I talk a lot about these issues.
You can also find me at www dot anchoredinnowledge dot com.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
That's my website and is your YouTube channel? Your name?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
It is, yes, So if you go to YouTube, type
in Tamorhill Therapist dot pop rate them perfect.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I'm so glad tamer was able to join us for
today's conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Session four thirty five, And don't
forget to text this episode to two of your girls
right now and tell them to check it out. Did
you know that you could leave us a voicemail with
your questions and suggestions for the podcast. If you have
(48:31):
books or movies you'd like us to review, or have
thoughts about topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us
a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black
Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We
just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget
(48:52):
to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black
Girls and come on over and join us in our
Patreon channel at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot
com for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more.
This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indie Chubu, and
Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
(49:12):
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four thirty five of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. Welcome back to the
second episode of our Siblings sit Down series, where we're
(01:18):
exploring sibling relationships and all the factors that shape the
emotional dynamics created between them. Today, I'm pleased to be
joined by Tamra Hill, licensed clinical child and family therapist,
who has built an online platform by making mental health
information accessible to the masses. We're getting into questions like
what happens when siblings fall into familiar roles, how can
(01:40):
parents nurture healthy relationships among their children, and what can
adult siblings do to healed old wounds and strengthen their bonds.
With so many elements in the mix, no one set
of siblings has the same relationship as another. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it
with us on social media using the TVG in session
(02:02):
or I join us. All are in our Patreon channel
to talk more about the episode. You can join us
at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's
our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Today's camera, Ah, thank you for having me. Can you
start by telling us a little bit more about yourself
and your practice, Like, what is your practice looking like
(02:25):
these days? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Absolutely, I have tons of families right now in my practice,
so I'm seeing a little bit under two hundred people
a month coming into my office asking for family therapy.
I've always done children, teens, maybe families here and there,
but as of the past two years and a little
bit after the COVID time, I've been working with families
(02:47):
and trying to help them communicate better. There's tons of
sibling rivalry, tons of parental alienation. There is also custody battles,
and so my practice right now is fully family based
therapy and treatment at this time.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So that's so interesting. So I feel like kind of
historically in the field, family counseling was not something you
saw a lot happening, Like, of course, there were therapists
who were doing it, But it's sounding like there's a
real uptick, especially in your practice, and it sounds like
in particular after the pandemic, is there anything that you
can point to, I mean, beyond like the trauma that
we all experience in a pandemic. Are there particular themes
(03:26):
that you're seeing kind of related to a post pandemic
kind of life that are coming up for your families.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Oh? Yeah, I think the major theme that I'm seeing
right now is we didn't really know each other before
the pandemic. We were stuck together for so many months,
and now I realize I don't feel the same way
about you that I did when we didn't have to
be in lockdown. So that's kind of like a common
theme for my practice right now. It's how do we
build that loving relationship with our children? How do we
(03:54):
build that loving relationship between siblings or at least somehow
developed healthy skills after the pandemic. It just seemed like
the pandemic did something psychological to most families, and so
now they're just searching for treatment and options.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we have been seeing more around
like sibling relationships, right. You know, I think there's a
lot of course in the field about the relationship you
have with your parents and how that, you know, really
leads to different things in your life. But I think
there's more focus on the sibling relationships now. And it
sounds like you are seeing a lot of siblings as
a part of your work. So talk to me about
(04:31):
like some of the common things that are coming up
in terms of sibling pairs or sibling dynamics in your work.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah. Absolutely. Currently I have I'm going to say maybe
about seven cases that are just about sibling rivalry, and
it's my sessions with them are mainly focused on better communication,
really trying to manage the internal desire to compete and
win some kind of favoritism in the eyes of parents. Also,
(05:00):
let's see is a big one for me right now,
and kids and siblings just trying to communicate even when
they're feeling like maybe the other sibling is the best one,
or maybe the other sibling is favored in mom and
dad's eyes. Trying to help those siblings communicate in a
healthy way and support each other and not try to
tear each other down. Very poor communication is another thing
(05:23):
that I'm dealing with. I'm not able to talk to
my sibling. I'm not able to get on the same
level with them and work through things. We fight. We
physically fight, we verbally fight, we ostracize each other, and
we can't even get along at home, much less in school.
So I'm seeing a lot of rivalry that happens in
(05:43):
the school system too, and siblings, if we're talking about
ADO lessons, they're in high school, they have different friend
groups and they don't engage with each other. It's like
they're kids that have never met each other before. And
that's a scary thing when you break it down.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And it does kind of feel like the language around
sibling rivalry has been kind of in the lexicon for forever, right,
And so is that a natural part of what you
would expect with sibling dynamics is that there will be
some kind of rivalry or are there specific factors that
impact whether, like there will be this sense of a
rivalry between siblings.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
That's such a great question, and I get that question
all the time from parents. I really think it depends
on the risk factors within a family. So if we're
dealing with a family that has generational trauma, intergenerational trauma,
generational challenges in terms of poor communication, abusive behavior, domestic violence,
(06:43):
drug abuse, untreated or poorly treated mental illness, all of
those risk factors I think kind of sets up kids
to have a really hard time when they have a sibling.
So I would say most siblings are going to have
a pretty quote unquote normal relationship with each other if
the household is stable. But when we're dealing with an
(07:04):
unstable family dynamic, it kind of sets the kids up
in the family to have a sibling rivalry. Even research
on sibling rivalries suggests that if you have siblings who
are being parented wrong, or if you have siblings who
have permissive parents, which means they're not as firm in
terms of boundaries and rules, you're likely to run into
(07:27):
kids who are far beyond sibling rivalry. We're talking about
we need to get therapy because our kids are not
functioning cohesively. So yeah, I would say things are pretty
much normal rivalry until there's so many risk factors the
kid is not very well supported. Sibling rivalry is the
end result of that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And it seems like Tom, like the sense of Ribberry
is like in some ways like a fight for independence
and like who am I in this family? Right? Like
everybody wants to be kind of seen and you know,
validated for who they are, And so it sounds like
that's what you're talking about in terms of like the
normal like who am I? And like how do I
differentiate myself? But what you're talking about seeing is something
(08:08):
that is beyond that, in terms of maybe jealousy or
something that is beyond just like I'm claiming my stake
to who I am in the family.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
One hundred percent. That's kind of the quote unquote normal road.
You know. I would say, the quote unquote abnormal road
would be I'm fighting my sibling and there's really no
reason for this. I'm just angry or I'm jealous or
you know, something of that nature. That's an issue.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, So you talked about permissive parenting and kind of
like the lack of boundaries being one thing that might
impact whether there is like this increased rivalry. Are there
other things that parents are doing or should be on
the lookout for that might set up their children to
not have like maybe the strongest relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I think language is key. Language is key. Sometimes when
I'm seeing an entire family first session, I'll hear the parents,
you know, unintentionally mentioned things that can kind of put
siblings in opposition forward each other. So things like, you know,
Billy's always been the smartest kid in the family. He
knows everything. You know, every time you turn around, He's
(09:14):
given us facts about certain things. He's just a wonderful kid.
Something like that kind of causes the other child in
the family to think, well, wait a minute, what about me.
Language is key, and I see that a lot in
family sessions. Even when a parent is just describing maybe
that siblings temperament or that siblings mental health challenges, it
(09:36):
can sound like the parent is putting one kid up
here and you know, the other kid down here. I
had a session a couple days ago with the family
that kind of dealt with this, and dad did not
mean to hurt the feelings of his son, but he
did say something like, you know, my brother's been the
smartest in this family. I was next to just as intelligent,
(09:56):
and my daughter is also highly intelligent. I mean, the
three of us we just click because we think the same. Well,
that left to sun out and so the son and
I had a lot of time to process how that
broke him down and how that hurt him. So language
is key, unintentional language, how you describe things as important
(10:18):
and talking about that other siblings mental and behavioral health problems,
the language there also needs to be carefully altered. So
language is key.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So what the recommendations would you give to parents around you? Know, like,
how do you balance that? Is it like if you're
offering a compliment for one, you want to also make
sure you're offering compliments for the others, Like how do
you balance that?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Oh that's so hard. I wish I had like a
clinical answer for that, Doctor Joe. I'm just going to
say this humbly. I don't know if I have the answer,
and I don't know if many therapists who work with
families have that answer. I think it may just depend
on the quote unquote temperature of the family. So if
you have a really vulnerable family where there's tons of
(11:04):
risk factors. There's anger, there's high conflict, there's untreated mental
health challenges. You want to be careful again with how
you're describing things and being careful with labels, maybe saying
something like, Billy's really good at A, B and C,
but so is Tommy. So like, I have two wonderful
kids kids, you know, they have different strengths. But Billy
(11:27):
knows how to do this, Timmy knows how to do that.
So maybe doing that can be a little bit helpful,
or just staying away from comparison altogether, I think that's
your safest bet. Yeah, So what.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Do we know about the sibling relationships and how they
form us into who we are? So again we talked
about you know, there's so much about like your parents
and your caregivers and how their responses to you impact
how you show up in relationships later. What about our
relationships with our siblings. What do we know about our
adult selves based on maybe our early lives with siblings.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, you know, there's research that highly supports the idea
that the sibling relationship is the most significant relationship in
that child's life, that besides the parent relationship, the sibling
relationship is that one relationship where we learn how to interact,
we learn how to think and feel, and we also
(12:20):
learn how to be in relation to another person. So
if we're dealing with sibling rivalry and it doesn't seem
to be the kind of normal sibling rivalry that we're
used to, if we're talking about jealousy and competition and
really trying to hurt that other sibling and take their
identity or minimize them or be very condescending every chance
(12:42):
they get, that's going to set up that same pattern
of relationships for that sibling for the rest of their lives.
The same gender sibling is often the most important sibling.
So in other words, if you have a boy, the
brother is very significant according to research, in that child's life.
(13:03):
So if there's you know, issues in that relationship throughout
the development of that child or adolescent adult, relationships are
going to be just as problematic because that's how they've
learned to engage, that's how they have learned how to communicate.
So there's no communication in a healthy way. And so
as that individual grows older, they think it's okay to compete,
(13:25):
they think it's okay to be hurt or minimized or
you know, have this angry and hostile disposition to the world.
Their adult relationships are just going to be a little
bit rocky because that most important relationship has been rocky
as well.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And for people who maybe don't grow up with siblings
but have maybe close relationships with cousins, or you know,
many of us have extended families where kind of everybody
is like a play sister or something like that. Do
those relationships mimic what you see with siblings or is
that different?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I would say that's different. And honestly, we lack the
clinical research that can help us tease a part if
there's similarity or differences. Even in my preparation for my
own YouTube channel and for this conversation, I didn't see
much on children and a family and their extended family.
(14:18):
We're lacking the research, doctor Joy, and we need to
get that information because it's going to help us understand
the sibling relationship as well. So we're a little bit behind.
Just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
More from our conversation after the break. So, as I'm
listening to you talk, Tamra, I'm thinking about a conversation
we had early on in the podcast with doctor and
Louise Lockhart about like coole regulation, right, and how so
(14:50):
much of how our children show up in the world
is really based on how well we do regulating ourselves
and our own emotions. And so when you talk about
things like like favorite or is there a favorite child?
Or who's the problem chaw in the family? I think
so much of that does come from like what the
parents are saying, maybe consciously, but probably a lot of
(15:11):
it is subconscious. Can you talk about, like what kinds
of things parents need to be aware of so that
they are not playing into these favoritism kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Oh yeah, I think this is a very broad question,
so I'm going to mention a few things. It's a
really good question because sometimes families will come into session
and ask me, Hey, Taramar, how do I manage this dynamic?
I think just being aware again of language, being aware
of what's the temperament of my child, and do I
(15:45):
need to be careful with how I talk about what's
going on in their lives with the other siblings. So
I'll give you an example. It's kind of like, if
you have two adolescent daughters, you may not want to
highlight that the sixteen year old tends to be more
mature than the thirteen year old because the sixteen year
old had a better academic life, or had better friends,
(16:09):
or you know, they seem to manage their emotions better.
You want to be careful comparing the two and highlighting
that one child is inherently better than the other child. There,
you know, I think parents fall into this trap of
I'm closest to my daughter because my daughter is more
like me. I get that a lot in therapy as well.
(16:31):
Sometimes dads will say, you know, my son, Michael and
I we're just like this because we tend to be
the most similar. And because of that, the parent automatically
leans toward that child. So Dad may lean more towards Michael,
and just about everything punishments favoritism. How he showers that
(16:51):
son with love and affection, The PEP talks that he
gives that son, the eye contact and body language around
that son, all of the can send these nonverbal cues
to the other child that I love Michael, maybe a
little bit too much and maybe way more than I
love you also too. I see this in clinical settings
(17:14):
where one sibling will be the most difficult, why because
of a mental illness, because of a behavioral problem, because
of challenges academically, and that'll cause maybe one parent to
unintentionally lean towards the child that has little to no challenges,
and that leaves this child feeling like maybe I am defected,
(17:37):
Maybe I'm dysfunctional. Maybe I'm the black sheet. Maybe I'm
the scapegoat in the family. Everybody blames me because I'm
the problem here and my brother Michael isn't. So I'm
the devil, He's the angel. So parents have a really
important role within the sibling dynamic. How do I communicate
with a child that isn't necessarily doing as well as
(18:01):
maybe Michael is, And how do I help that other
child understand that even though you may have challenges, or
even though you're not as mature, even though something's going
on here, it doesn't mean Michael is better than you.
So really having some self awareness inside the parent, having
that self awareness of how do I treat both my kids?
(18:23):
Am I separating them? Am I punishing this one more
than the other? And if so? Why? So? That introspection
is key.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
As we're talking, of course as adults, camera I'm reminded
that like children, of course, don't have the same reasoning
and like lodging that we do as adults, and they
come up with all kinds of fantastic stories about like
why something is happening in the family, and so, you know,
I think about something you just said. Maybe think about
like if there is a child who has maybe significant
(18:52):
health issues in a family, and there's a lot of
resources and energy that go to that child, and then
the other child may be feeling less special, right, so
all of these things that I think as parents and caregivers,
like you have to be mindful of that children. And
you're thinking like, oh, like they know that I love
them kind of thing, right, But they don't. I don't
know what kinds of stories they're creating about, like why
(19:14):
so and so get so much attention?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yes, that's so so true. Could I mention a theory
I think that will kind of fit well here, doctor Joy,
you're probably well aware of this theory. It's the drama triangle.
And this triangle I will try to send you some
information so in case people who are watching can look
it up and kind of delve into that and use
(19:37):
it in the family dynamic. But the drama triangle is
pretty interesting because it happens in the midst of sibling relationships,
and it also happens in parent child relationships where there's
always a victim. In this triangle, there's a victim, there's
a persecutor. So that's the individual in the family who's
constantly creating the problems. They're pointing fingers, you know. They
(20:00):
tend to be the most in your face family member.
And then we also have the rescuer, who is that
individual who swoops in and saves the day. If we're
talking about siblings, sometimes the sibling who is the favored
tends to be the rescuer, and they tend to be
the hero in the sibling dynamic. They're the sibling that
(20:21):
has the better job, makes the most money, tends to
be the most mature, has gotten married first. That rescuer
child has done everything right. And so if there's a
family issue where there's a quote unquote victim that is
being ostracized, that's being bullied, that's being harmed, that good
sibling or that rescuer sibling swoops in to save that victim.
(20:45):
And then the child who is less favored, So the
other sibling tends to be the one who is blamed
for the problems in the family, so basically the black sheet.
So that's the triangle. Is an interesting dynamic because the
rescuing sibling swoops in saves the day, they get the
most love, affection, attention, support, even financial support according to research,
(21:09):
and the other sibling kind of stays in that black
sheep role and doesn't get a chance to maybe prove
themselves to that family dynamic. It's a sad triangle when
you look at it and you really delve in to
what it means.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Thank you for Shannon, and I had not heard about that,
so I'm interested to read more about that. So, you know,
I think you just bring up a great example that
makes me think about, like, well, what happens when these
kids then grow up?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
You know? So, I think a lot of people think,
in an ideal world, you have these very close relationships
with your siblings and your first best friends kind of thing.
But sadly we know that that is not always the case.
So what kinds of things impact the kind of relationship
you have with your sibling as an adult?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Mm hmm. I'm going to highlight jealousy and envy. That
tends to be really huge. Jealousy, I think in the
envy they're normal emotions, common emotion, so maybe I should
kind of separate those. For more of a morbid jealousy
or more of a pathological jealousy where the sibling who
is the jealous envious one of the other sibling, they
(22:12):
tend to be on this war path and research supports
this as well. If you have a sibling who's jealous
as a child, jealous as an adolescent, and it has
it wavered and then continues to be jealous and envious,
even though there's been therapy, there's been positive reinforcement, there's
been parenting alterations, whatever the case, If that child adolescent
(22:37):
continues that jealousy of the other sibling up into adulthood,
it's going to set that other sibling up for a
series of negative experiences because that jealous envious sibling is
really putting that other sibling in in a vulnerable position,
and that other sibling, the one who is envied, is
in that role and they're stuck and they don't know
(22:58):
how to get out. Sometimes can feel like a trap
because they want to have a good relationship with that
other sibling, but they can't do it because the jealous
sibling has slammed the door and said, you know what,
I don't like you because of AB and C, or
I don't you're not my kind of individual because of A,
B and C. And that puts that other sibling in
a place where they're most likely to have emotional voids.
(23:22):
They're most likely to get into abusive relationships because they
can't necessarily see the signs and the behaviors of some
thing's wrong in this relationship. And they are also more
likely to struggle in other areas of their lives. Academically,
you positions that they are pursuing in their career, They're
likely to have low self esteem and low feelings of
(23:43):
self efficacy. There's going to be a self fulfilling prophecy
with this sibling who is envieed. There's just so many
avenues that they can end up down and it's all
because of the sibling who has made life really difficult
all the way from childhood, adolescents into adulthood, a very
sad and depressing dynamic.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, you know something we have not talked about that
I think is also a really important part of conversations
when you're talking about siblings is birth order. So there's
been so much, so much conversation, it feels like, yeah,
maybe within the last two to three years around like
oldest daughters, right, Like we see a lot of like,
oh the oldest daughter and the means XYZ and my family.
(24:24):
Can you talk to us about birth order and like
what does that mean in the context of family dynamics?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Oh goodness. So the reason why I'm laughing, doctor Joy
is because I was just doing some research lesson on
birth order for my own video. So that's coming out
on siblings and I I'll say this first before I
get into birth order. Research cannot find a causal relationship
(24:50):
between birth order and how that child's life is going
to turn out, whether it's going to be positive or negative.
There's a association, but we don't understand the causal link necessarily.
Those are two different things. So birth order is interesting
because the older sibling automatically takes on that role of protector,
(25:14):
hero rescuer, you know, and parents interestingly automatically assigned to
that older sibling. And I'm this way in my own family.
I'll tell you that in a second. But that older
sibling tends to if you ask me, the parent tends
to have a higher expectation for that older sibling, no
(25:34):
matter whether or not that older sibling can hold up
the end of the bargain. So, in other words, that
older sibling may not be necessarily mature enough to guide
or to be the leader of the family. But just
because they're the firstborn, that expectation, that parent holds that
expectation rather high, and that eldest child just sometimes they
(25:55):
fold under that. Other times they succeed, but for the
most part, I think they kind of fall. Now I'll
give you an example my family. I have two brothers.
I'm the middle child. My younger sibling gets on my
last nerve. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you that,
and he gets on my nerves because he plays that
role of baby. He's the last child, so he plays
(26:16):
that role of the birth order, role of the baby
in the family, and so he does things that are excused.
He's really not the one mom is looking at when
things need to get done. He's the one that kind
of receives while the older siblings kind of feel like
the slave. I'm the middle child, so I got a
lot of love and affection, but at the same time
(26:38):
I'm looked at as the sibling that is there to
kind of hold the family and the siblings together. And
I think that has more to do with my gender.
It's more of a gender thing. You're the girl, you
know what I mean, Doctor Joy, You're the girl, so
you know you're gonna hold the family together. You're gonna
be the thinker, the emotional one. And then of course
my older brother, he's the one kind of left the
(27:00):
nest very quickly. But I think he folded under the
stress of being the older sibling, and so for many
years he did not talk to my mom, and I
think there was a lot of resentment that he had
to be the older sibling who was kind of left
out of the equation when my mom had myself and
(27:23):
my younger sibling. Not intentionally, it was just birth order
and it happened that way. I think a lot of
older kids go on to feel resentment because maybe they
were born at a time when mom and dad were youngest.
Maybe they were born at a time when mom and
dad didn't have the tools and the skills, and then
(27:43):
here comes the younger siblings and they're getting the best
of mom and dad. So I think older siblings they
have a huge calling, But I'm not so sure they
all stand up under the pressure. I'm starting to see
the older I get in my sibling dynamic, even working
with families who are going through this as well, I'm
starting to see that the older sibling needs sometimes the
(28:07):
most love, the most compassion, because a lot of them
feel like I had to leave, I had to spread
my wings, I had to become independent, and maybe a
little bit too soon.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So so many thoughts are running through my hands, Hammer
because you run off some excellent points. So one, I
think there's lots of conversation around like how every child
in a family gets a different set of parents, right,
so you know, the first child gets like the brand
new like what in the world are we doing, Like
we're just trying to keep this baby alive? Parents, And
(28:41):
then by the time you get to second, third, later
children like you have maybe a little bit better since
of you know what you're doing, and so you get
a different set of parents. And so I do think
it's really interesting when you talk to like sibling groups
that like some of the memories they have or their
experiences of parents are very different because you in all
got different sets of parents. I really appreciate that you
(29:04):
brought up the whole. You are the middle child, but
you're the oldest daughter. Because I was gonna ask, is
there some gender piece around whether that oldest child is
a boy or a girl, you know, if we're using
kind of binary terms right, like I do think, at
least antcdotally, I don't know that there's any evidence that
the oldest daughters. It feels like, even if they do buckle,
(29:27):
there is more of a sense of like, you are
expected to do this, whereas maybe oldest boy children are
kind of like they can make more mistakes or whatever,
but like oldest girls are kind of just expected to
have it all together.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Oh my god, yes, oh my god. My So my
mom had a I'm not gonna say it's not a
mini stroke, but it's like a left hemispheric stroke where
the right side of her body because of a blood
clot and because of high blood pressure, just stopped working.
So she had a stroke in February. It was a
huge traumatic situation for myself and my siblings. But I
(30:04):
think for the first time in my life, I saw
birth order play out because as the middle daughter and
the younger brother and older brother, they were there as
much as I was. But as the middle daughter, I
was expected to talk to the doctors, to comfort mom,
to caregive, to fix the dinners, for my siblings, to
(30:29):
hug them and tell them it's going to be okay,
to hold their hand, even down to my brother for example,
even down to my brother needed a work excuse for
coming to the hospital. He's like, I don't know what
to do, and so I said, I'll do it for you.
So I recognize for the first time that I'm dependent
on all the time. And it's because I'm the middle girl.
(30:50):
I cannot take that role of sitting back and relaxing
in a way. I've been expected to just step up.
And I think a lot of females siblings.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Go through that. So when we see like high profile,
super successful sibling pairs like a Beyonce in a Solange
or Venus and Serena Williams, how do you make sense
of like this kind of super successful identity and like
shared ambition that kind of comes out of one household.
Like what are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
When I think of Venus and Serena, They're awesome, Like
they're just wonderful, even Beyonce and her sister. I my
experience in treating sisters who are both successful. I think
they share the power in the family. But again, because
they're females, I think they're kind of leaned on, maybe
(31:45):
more so than two sons in the family. The siblings
who are females, they're kind of looked at, and especially
if they're successful as two wonder womans and the family
boys are not looked at in that way for some reason.
I think, again it's just the gender thing. It's females,
and if they're successful, they're really leaned on within the family.
(32:08):
There can also be some jealousy between them and competition.
You know, maybe the Serena Williams and a sister dynamic,
a family dynamic is the one who is the most
praised because she's married and has a daughter or now
two children, and she's this powerful female model. Maybe the
(32:28):
venus of the family who isn't married yet on our way,
but isn't married yet isn't really as powerful until she
says I do so. I think there's some dynamics there too,
But for the most part, if you have two successful
females or sisters in a family, that is some kind
of power dynamic.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
And you know, Mestina Knowles has been very publican talking
about how she started therapy with the girls very early on,
because you know, Beyonce was already kind of on her
way to kind of being successful and really wanted to
make sure that Solanja had a place to talk about
that and that you know, they could really kind of
get ahead of any issues. And it feels like that
is something because you know, at least they're talking about
(33:05):
it right, like they are able to kind of put
these issues on the table, which I think is more
than maybe some families will do. And then you realize
that there is all this jealousy in inv like you mentioned.
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Absolutely. I'm not sure that we as a field of
psychology have the research there to really treat these kind
of families. So it's like, what's the theoretical orientation, what's
the road we need to go down with these siblings
when it comes to that sibling dynamic. Do we use
Bowinian therapy, you know? Do we use structural family therapy,
do we use cognitive behavior therapy? Just what is needed
(33:41):
as a context to treat these families. I'm not sure
we have the research, doctor Joy, unless you know of something,
but I die that exactly we're lacking and we need
we need a lot more research.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, more from our conversation after the break, we've talked
a lot about you know, like I think family therapy
in terms of children in the family, But what does
it look like Tamera to work on like healing sibling
(34:16):
wounds as adults. So let's say there is a pair
of siblings that comes to you and they say, you know,
we didn't have the best relationship as children, but we
really want to have a stronger relationship. Now, what does
it look like to heal those wounds as adults.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Absolutely, when I get these families in my practice, the
first step I want them to take, and I often
encourage them to take, is to start fresh. Saying goodbye
to that history is important because if we're still holding
on to what happened back then, then it kind of
cuts us off from closing that door and moving ahead
(34:51):
in a healthy way. Seeing each other as adults is
also important, so perception of reality. There's often when it
comes to sibling relationships, there's often a distortion of reality
in terms of favoritism and who was the best child,
and who was the most successful, and who was the
most praised. A sibling may feel like where you were
mom and Dad's favorite, and the so called a favorite
(35:13):
may say, no, you are mom and Dad's favorite. So
there's some distortion of reality there. We have to kind
of shut that door, slam that door, lock it up,
and say, Okay, that's not important. Let's focus on the
now and move ahead. Let's see each other as adults.
Let's figure out how do we connect as adults. What
is it that we need as adults? What do we
need to do to become close knit individuals in this
(35:36):
scary world. Once you can do that, I think you
can then move into skill building. So how should we
be communicating? How often should we be communicating? You know,
should I call you if you cross my mind or
if I feel you on my heart for the day?
What do I need as your sibling to give you
the love that I couldn't give you when we were younger?
(35:58):
What places of your life can I impact? Can I
play a powerful role so that we can rebuild our
relationship and be the strong siblings that we should have
been when we were younger? So staying in contact with
that sibling understanding I can throw and hear the love
languages of your sibling. Do they need your physical affection.
(36:20):
Do they need an email? Do they need a text message?
What is it that they need from you? So figuring
that out and then again slamming that door on history
and starting over and starting fresh. It's it's humility. It's
saying I love you sis, or I love you brother,
and I want us to start fresh and try to
get along for once in our lives. And what does
(36:41):
that consist of? So being inquisitive, being humble, being modest,
being ready to move forward.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So it sounds like you're saying you would not go
too much into this, like okay, let's unpack this. Who
was the favorite? Or like you got preferential treatment from
mom and dad and I didn't, Like we're really wanting
to kind of just move past that and start almost
with a fresh relationship as opposed to really kind of
undoing or like trying to make peace with the relationships
that we maybe had asked it.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I can see disaster there, Like you're gonna have a
few sessions where you're gonna be fighting and out or
there's gonna be some kind of well remember this and
remember that. I think it's best to just start fresh.
And if there's some major traumas, maybe going back to
look at that, so like if there was child physical abuse,
(37:30):
if there was sexual abuse in the family, if there
was PTSD as a result of a tragedy, then maybe
you can go back and pull that into the now.
But I really think we should start fresh and move
forward from there.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
You've already given us a little bit of an example
in your own life with you know, your mom's health conditions.
But what kinds of things would you offer to people,
especially as you know many of us have aging parents
and thinking about like caregiving among siblings. Can you talk
about like how how sibling relationships evolve, and like what
kinds of conversations to have with your siblings as you
(38:06):
are talking about caregiving for aging parents.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, oh my god, that's such a great question, doctor Joy.
That's about five or six episodes, because there's so much
to talk about. I think the most important thing when
it comes to caretaking is really looking at the sibling
dynamic and having a frank conversation who is that sibling,
(38:29):
Who is that child that mom and dad looks up to,
or looks to, or goes to or feel safest with,
that can make the decisions. This is not about who's better,
who's greater, who's more competent. It's more so about who
is that child who can help mom or dad or
both feel comfortable in aging, feel comfortable in caretaking. You know,
(38:53):
when my mom had her struck, my older sibling, my
older brother, he knew that he could step in and support,
But then he also knew that my mom tended to
trust me more because I was the female. I was
the one who understood the women issues. I was the
one who understood those deep conversations only my mom and
I could have. Doesn't mean she didn't love her son,
(39:14):
doesn't mean my older brother is incompetent. But the dynamic
made it so that I had to be the one
to step up, and I was the one that did
most of the work, most of the talking to the doctors,
most of the advanced directive's work, most of the power
of attorney work. It's important to be honest and not
(39:35):
allow your ego to get in the way when you're caregiving,
because I think once your ego gets the way, your
mind's gonna put you in a track because you're going
to start thinking, well, they love him more, they love
her more, or they think I'm incompetent, or they don't
trust me. Being aware of the fact that it isn't
about who's the best, It's about mom or dad or both,
(39:59):
and how do we care for them, how do we
push them forward, how do we get them the things
that they need? Who do they trust the most. That's
a really hard road to go down because you're going
to have to do a lot of self examination, and
you may feel a little bit hurt. Yeah, you may
feel a little bit hurt, but I think keeping in mind,
we're in this together. We have to help mom or
(40:21):
dad or both, and we need the strongest sibling to
step up and take the lead role. And I'm going
to get behind my sibling and support. My older brother
got behind me and just support it. And I love
that when I couldn't do something, he was right there
to just kind of jump in and save the day,
(40:41):
or he was there to back me up. And so
figuring out those pieces of the puzzle is going to
be very very significant when it comes to caregiving. Who
is that main person who can be there to back
up and support and who can be there to just
kind of take the business part of caregiving dynamic where
you're going to have to work together. It's a team
(41:03):
approach rather than an approach that has that favorite sibling
or that best person in the forefront. It's a team approach.
How do we fit the pieces together here so we
can say we can help, we can support.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, and this feels like one of those conversations that
depending on what the sibling dynamic is, right, like if
there are all these unresolved issues about like who was
the favorite, right, or if we have not made peace
with all of this, it feels like this could be
like a very difficult thing to talk about, like who's
going to be like the spokesperson, maybe who's going to
take more of the financial burden? You know, like it
(41:39):
feels like there's a lot that could go wrong, so
to speak. An these conversations depending on what the relationship
is like with your sibling.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yes, oh my god. Yes, Especially when you're talking about
like executors of an estate or you're talking about a
power of attorney or who's going to be managing all
the business parts of the puzzle, that can be very intimidating.
And for other siblings, they may feel like we're going
to be pushed to the side. We're not going to
get our inheritance. We're not going to be treated fairly.
We're not going to be able to make a life
(42:07):
or death decision on mom or dad. So you know,
that dynamic in and of itself is just really intimidating
for most siblings. There's trauma there too.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah. Yeah, you know, thinking about We've had so many
incredible guests on the podcast, and we talk with the
death doula who also works with families, right, So it
feels like using some services like that could also be
good to bring in, especially if there are kind of
tricky dynamic. Somebody who can come in and say, Okay,
who's gonna do this, you know, and really can get
people on the same page.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I agree, that's really fantastic. I didn't think of that.
You brought something up that I need to kind of
store in the back of my mind, doctor Joy. It's
awesome to have somebody like that that can just hold
your hand and walk you through this, right, no, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
So this conversation is going to be coming out closer
to the holidays camera, and so I am also wondering
for people who are maybe don't have the best relationships,
they're navigating kind of tough sibling relationships. What advice do
you have about navigating the holiday season.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
M oh geez. I think it just depends on the dynamics.
So if you're a family member who has contemplated going
no contact, or you have been no contact, I think
it's important to just decide how am I going to communicate?
How am I going to navigate this? If somebody reaches
out to me, am I going to respond? If somebody
(43:27):
sends me a gift to be a mail, am I
going to send it back to them? Am I going
to say thank you? Am I going to call them?
Am I going to go to an event? Or not?
If you're not grappling with the no contact issue, I
think if you just have a dysfunctional or toxic or
unhealthy kind of family dynamic, it's important to number one,
have coping skills if you're going to deal with family
(43:49):
members who are difficult. So figure out what do I
need to do. Do I need to show up really
early and leave within fifteen minutes of getting there? Do
I need to hug everybody, say Merry Christmas? Are happy things,
get out of there? Or do I sit with them
and just not say a lot, just engage and kind
of fill around for where I need to be or
not be. Figuring out what your role is and how
(44:12):
to manage your role within that family dynamic or sibling
dynamic is important because if there's sibling rivalry that's been unresolved,
if there's toxicity within the family dynamic, you want to
make sure that you stay in the outskirts of that.
So again, coping skills, how long you're going to stay,
what you're going to talk about, not talk about, what's
(44:32):
off limits, how to set healthy boundaries and finding that
point person, should I stay near Grandma half the time
that I'm visiting, you know, should I support in the
kitchen and just stay out of the deep conversations in
the living room. So just having a plan beforehand and
you know, humbly and modestly walking through that whole thing.
(44:54):
I don't think you can really prepare. You kind of
have to have a little bit of a plan and
then see how it goes from there.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I think that that's always the best strategy, right
because you don't know like what unknowns are gonna pop
off during the holidays. But having a plan of you know,
you know your family right, like you know specifically how
things go, and so having a plan of how long
you're going to stay, who are you going to talk to,
what kinds of things are awful limits. I think you
bring up some excellent points there.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Thank you. Yeah, it has saved me in the past.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah. So when you think about like the clients that
you've worked with, or just the research that you've read,
or you know, things you've engaged with, what kinds of
things do you think are like some of the secrets
to sibling relationships that are really strong.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
I would say we tend to not look at the
fact that humility is key. I think sometimes in sibiling relationships,
if you're feeling like that other sibling is better than
you or smarter than you, or they're getting favoritism, and
even when you don't see that happening, you don't feel
that way. Just having that sibling relationship, having humility to
kind of keep you and another sibling grounded is key.
(46:00):
And I'll use myself as an example again, if I
weren't humble towards my older sibling, I think we'd have
a really hard time. Because number one, I'm a psychotherapist
and I study the mind, and I studied the science
of people, and so he's always guarded, like are you
reading me? But addressing our differences in a humble way
and loving him in a humble way, taking off my
(46:21):
therapist's hat, thrown it way over there, and just being
that humble sibling in need of our older brother has
really taken us a very long way. Of siblings, we
get along now, I think, more than we had when
we were adolescents. My brother's twelve years older than me,
so you know, when I was ten and he was
like twenty one twenty two, we didn't mesh very well.
So now that we're both adults, life has changed us
(46:47):
and experience has changed us. And so my approach to
him is just in a humble way. And that's what
keeps us really really together. When I'm doing clinical work
with siblings, Modest humility, open communication, apologizing when you've done
something wrong, and offering that unconditional love and support goes
(47:10):
a very long way. Loving your sibling without those strings
attached means so so much, and I think we we
fail to recognize that those things are significant. They can
take you a long way and your relationship with your sibling.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Thank you so much for that, tamra I think that
will be very helpful for lots of siblings and sibling
relationships that may be listening to our podcast. So let
us know where can we stay connected with you, Tamra.
What is your website and your YouTube channel? Where can
people find more from you?
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Thank you so much for having me. By the way,
doctor Droy, this was great. You can find me on
my YouTube channel. I talk a lot about these issues.
You can also find me at www dot anchoredinnowledge dot com.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
That's my website and is your YouTube channel? Your name?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
It is, yes, So if you go to YouTube, type
in Tamorhill Therapist dot pop rate them perfect.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I'm so glad tamer was able to join us for
today's conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Session four thirty five, And don't
forget to text this episode to two of your girls
right now and tell them to check it out. Did
you know that you could leave us a voicemail with
your questions and suggestions for the podcast. If you have
(48:31):
books or movies you'd like us to review, or have
thoughts about topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us
a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black
Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We
just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget
(48:52):
to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black
Girls and come on over and join us in our
Patreon channel at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot
com for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more.
This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indie Chubu, and
Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
(49:12):
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care,
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