January 19, 2021 • 31 mins
Melissa Ryan, extremism and disinformation expert, joins Bridget to talk about how disinformation and conspiracy theories led to the riots at the Capitol and where we go from here.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are
No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. So I
live in Washington, d C. And it's been a rough
few weeks. My city is still reeling from a violent
attack on the Capitol by white supremacist Trump supporters, and
now we're all honkering down to prepare for the threat
(00:24):
of inauguration violence. And I'm still making sense of everything,
how we got here and most importantly, how we moved forward.
And I know I'm not alone. Melissa Ryan is a
long time digital organizer turned extremism and disinformation expert. In October,
we sat down to discuss the ways that she was
seeing disinformation playing out in the lead up to the election. Now,
(00:49):
at the time, we didn't know what would happen in
the election or the kind of violence that would follow.
In hindsight, the signs were always there. But after four years,
you couldn't really blame anybody who was just tuning Trump
out as a coping mechanism. His Twitter feed was an
all caps mishmash of lies, threats, racism, and whatever. Kovifi
(01:10):
is like a lot of us election was a turning
point for Melissa she'd seen violent rhetoric and conspiracy theories online,
but in she remembers the temperature being turned up in
a way she had never seen before. This was different.
It was as if Trump being elected to the White
House just dialed everything up. So why this information? Why
(01:34):
is this something that you've dedicated so much of your
life to? Oh? Lord, I don't know now. I think
It's election really broke me. Um because what I saw
online in the weeks leading up, you know, you know,
I have a long history as an online organizer, um,
and what I was seeing didn't make any sense. Everything
(01:55):
that Trump was doing was overamplified. Nothing that the left
was doing seemed to be getting any play. And there
was just more hate speech, um, and more misogyny uh
than I had ever seen before. And like, I'm a
woman on the internet, so I'm just used to a
baseline of of a certain amount of that, uh, And
it just seemed to be increasing in frequency, uh, and
(02:18):
the danger seemed to be increasing. And after the election,
I decided that I had to make it my job.
Do you feel like I guess maybe this is a
big question, but do you feel when you think of
the state of disinformation and the conversations that we have
online as women, as communities of color. Do you feel
hopeful or do you feel this is a dumpster fire
(02:41):
it will only get worse. That's a good question. I
think it varies from day to day. I think there
are things that make me make me hopeful. Um, you know,
I hope we're about to win an election, um and
send I think a very big message uh, to to
the far right about how America at large feels about them.
(03:04):
But I I do worry. I worry that a lot
of progressives still don't quite understand the problem. That they
think of disinformation as something that affects uh, their their
aunt or uncle who watched Fox News, um, and not
that's largely targeting women or communities of color. Or they
think that it's just going to go away. Uh if
(03:24):
Biden is elected and you know, both of those, uh,
both of those are are incorrect, uh and make me worry.
I'm really worried that if the election goes our way,
then it's gonna be like, Oh, we don't have to
worry about disinformation anymore, we don't have to worry about
hate speech because they're all going to be gone. And
that's just simply not the place Biden was elected, and
once again it was that the temperature got turned up,
(03:48):
only this time it was turned way up. Six days
after watching the violent insurrection take place at the Capitol
that was largely fueled by the repeated, baseless false claim
that Trump won the election and it was being stolen
from him. Melissa and I spoke again where two people
whose work has consisted of warning people that something awful
is coming, trying to get tech companies to take action
(04:11):
to prevent it, and generally waiting through the darkest corners
of the Internet. So if we sound like we're not
in a great place, well we weren't. So I have
to say, you know, we are in this intense moment.
You know, you've been doing this work for such a
long time. Just in general, how the hell are you?
It is like it is a wild time to be
(04:32):
someone who who works in this space. How are you? Yeah?
Thank you for asking. Um, I'm I can't say that
I'm okay, and I don't think that any of us
are okay. Um, it's been it's been such an awful
experience sort of watching this unfold and be organized online
so very publicly, and then every day, we find out
(04:55):
news that says that the attack was much worse, I think,
even than what we real eised. Like the news just
keeps getting worse every day. Um. And it's very it's
very unsettling to think about how many folks who hold
elected office up to the president we're inciting violence, um.
And how many members of Congress and Hill staff and
(05:16):
frankly like support staff, maintenance and food service have to
go back to work with some of these folks every
day less than a week after an attempted coup. I'm
going to be sitting with that for a long time. Yeah,
I definitely feel you on that. I think that's one
of the things that really breaks my heart. You know,
nobody should be going through this full stop. But then
when you think about the other staffers and then just
(05:38):
you know, folks every day, folks in d C who
have the kind of support who don't have the kind
of you know, um, who who maybe are not being
taken care of in this way. Like I remember seeing
an image of the largely black Capitol Hill staffers cleaning
up and I thought, you know, did these folks also
get the benefit of you know, gas mass or detection,
(06:00):
or were they just out here on their own, trying
to do their jobs. Yeah. I read a harrowing anecdote
about how after nine eleven, UM, no one actually came
to evacuate the support staff and tell them that it
was safe. And I'm just thinking like, oh, man, I hope,
I hope that there are better procedures in place now. Um.
(06:22):
There was also an anecdote about how members of Congress
were told that bullet proof vested for reimbursable expense, and
I was like, well, I wonder if you're a food
service worker who's outsourced, I'm guessing it's not a reimbursable
expense or even something that's you know, can be on
your radar. So it's really horrible. A day before the
violent riot at the Capitol, Melissa tweeted, we should probably
(06:45):
talk more about how Donald Trump wants his supporters to
get violent on his behalf tomorrow. He's been encouraging them
to come for weeks and now inciting them. Well, concerns
me is how many people are heading to d C
hoping for violence. So don't seem to be clear with
one another if Trump is supposed to start the insurrection
or if they are her tweet would prove to be prophetic.
(07:09):
Only no one really wants to be able to say
I told you so when they're talking about a violent
mob attack. Yeah, it's I love being right generally in
my life, but there is no worse time to be right,
um than it's uh thinking about a president inciting violence
against Americans. Um. It was horrible. I spent my holidays
(07:29):
at Trump on December nineteenth announced this event and he
said be there be wild um, and he crowd built
for it over Twitter a couple more times. Who could
have seen the events at the Capitol coming Well, pretty
much anyone who is looking. In fact, Trump's own administration
found that home grown white supremacist groups who are growing
(07:49):
spread in America. The Department of Homeland Security called the
threat from white supremacists the most deadly domestic terror threat
facing the country, and yet the Trump administ ttration chose
to instead prioritize what they called quote black identity extremists
or essentially anyone who was black and happened to be
connected to Black Lives Matter, as the bigger threat. What's
(08:11):
hard for Melissa is the fact that these attacks were
so openly planned on social media platforms folks were just
on in mega world were so openly organizing. Um. They
were on the Donald, they were on parlor, in Facebook groups,
and the rhetoric just kept getting increasingly violent. Uh. And
they were talking about storming the capital. They were talking
(08:31):
about how they were going to hang and execute members
of Congress and anyone who was in the deep state. Uh.
And it was all just happening on the out in
the open, and it was very disturbing. Um. And partly
it's very disturbing because it's really hard to tell like
who is fantasizing and who is actually making plans. Yeah,
I can imagine that. And I think from what you
(08:53):
just said, you know, if you knew where to look,
these things were being organized in plain sight. What is
it like then to have so many official kind of
make it seem as though we could never have predicted this,
We could have never prepared for this. What if that?
And it almost kind of feels like a kind of
gas lighting where you're thinking, oh, I literally just saw
this being planned on Twitter dot com in public or
(09:14):
on parlor. You know, having all of these officials kind
of like lean on this language that makes it seem
like no one could have seen this coming. What does
that like to see? Yeah, I mean, what I'll say is,
whiteness is a hell of a drug. It's it's I
have no doubt in my I mean, I think about
how we know law enforcement surveills and infiltrates, uh, supposedly
(09:38):
groups of all political stripes, but we know what happens
to folks on the left. We know what's been happening
to Black Lives Matter. Um. I can't imagine if something
on a Black Lives Matter forum or group or conversation
was said that was like a quarter of this vitriolic
that there wouldn't be just an incredible police presence in response. Um.
And that all this was happening for weeks. And again like,
(09:58):
there's no way folks didn't see what was happening. Um,
it's just that they saw what was happening and chose
not to take it seriously. You know, folks like you
and other organizations and the organization that I represent, Ultraviolet,
We've been calling on tech platforms to take this information
and violent rhetoric on social media seriously forever. I mean,
you and I have been in some of the same
(10:19):
meetings with leadership from companies like Facebook, and Twitter, and
we just listened to them say over and over again, Oh,
we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't
do this, and throw up their hands. And it turns
out they could do it this whole time. Yeah, all
it took was a violent, attempted coup. Um. No. I
mean what I go back to is the tech platforms
and Facebook is the worst actor, but I think, you know,
(10:40):
YouTube and Twitter have to take some heat too. They've
always treated this like a PR problem, and when we
see big changes is after terrible tragic events happen, um,
and then it's like no one could have predicted, no
one could have prevented. Um. Cheryl Sandberg actually had the
audacity to say yesterday that this attack wasn't organized on Facebook,
which was just I don't even know how still, after
(11:02):
all these years you can say that with a straight
face or what PR person would advise you to do that? Um.
But again it's like I think, I hope you know,
we know from news public reporting that Twitter seems to
indicate that part of the reason that they took down
Trump's account and did another round of takedowns was because
of UM intelligence they received about more violence. So I'm
(11:22):
sure that plays into it as well, but after the
past four years, it's hard not to be cynical and
be like, oh, you just see this as another PR problem. Yeah,
I mean I completely agree to to. To go back
to Sheryl Sandbord in that video yesterday, she said, oh,
we Facebook moved to take down all the staff to
steal groups. And I happened to have all my other
(11:43):
monitor Facebook up and I was looking at the group.
So I was like, well, she's telling me that they're down,
but here I am. Here they are with my eyes
looking at them. Well, I mean, how much you know
we talked about being in some of the same meetings.
How how often have you know we've been there with
nonprofit organizations who are saying this is what we're seeing,
this is what it is, here's the list, and then
(12:03):
Facebook dances around it like, oh, they've only had two
strikes and our review is different. And it's just you know,
abdicating responsibility again and again. It's always something it really,
it really is like a crisis of leadership. It's you know,
passing the book. It's blaming you know, contract content moderators
or something. It's it's there's always something I feel where
(12:25):
they're able to really skirt accountability. And I think it's
interesting to watch how quickly they're moving now with how
slowly they've been moving in the past, and how they've
just been, you know, parenting this idea that there's not
much they can do when it's clear that's not the case. Yeah,
you said in the early days of COVID too. I mean,
I think Facebook took a lot more proactive action than
(12:47):
they have in the past because they could sort of,
you know, see what was coming, and they still didn't
do enough. But it's like, well, we know you can
move fast when you need to. What was your reaction
to Trump being kicked off social media, you know, first
Facebook and then Twitter. I was it was truly stunned
when he was finally, uh suspended from Twitter, especially when
it was permanent. I remember, just like that night, just
like staring at the space where his page used to be. Um,
(13:10):
I think I've tweeted you know, your moment of zen
And honestly, like selfishly, I was like, oh my god,
I'm never gonna have to wake up and wonder what
he tweeted. Um, I'm never gonna have to worry if
he like started a war or fired someone or anything
over Twitter. UM. So personally, uh, it was God, it
was like this giant weight had been lifted off. I
(13:32):
have seen so many people, some of whom are people
that I respect or who's you know, I think are
thoughtful people making this argument of like, well, if they
can do this to Trump because they don't like what
he has to say, who what's stopping them from doing
it to me or to you or to anybody else?
Making Trump being de platformed about a free speech issue?
Do do you believe that Trump being de platform FUM,
(13:54):
Facebook and Twitter and social media is a free speech issue.
I don't, because again, he was inciting violence, and uh,
when we're talking about free speech, we're talking about free
speech of a select few, and it completely ignores everyone
who has been uh d platformed or harassed offline over
the number of years by these same folks. UM. I
(14:15):
also think the world leader Twitter's World leaders policy in
particular is something we haven't talked about enough in this
UM and I think, you know, I've got kind of
an obsession with it. UM for a long time. Twitter,
if you were a world leader, they were going to
leave your tweet up No matter what it was, because
it was newsworthy UM. And basically what that did was
it gave world leaders another weapon to abuse UM. And
(14:37):
obviously every world leader isn't going to abuse it, but
it was. If you know that your tweet is not
going to be taken down, that gives you a lot
more leeway to do things like incite violence and make threats.
Let's take a quick break and we're back. I wish
(15:04):
we lived in a world where world leaders could be
trusted to not incite violence and make threats, but let's
be real, that's not the world. Americans have spent the
last four years living in the seductive power of violence
and threats, combined with the power of unrestricted social media access,
proved to be too much for demagogues like Trump to resist.
Social media companies need to be held accountable when their
(15:26):
platforms are used to spread hatred and incite violence. There
need to be standards, and elected officials whose voices are
amplified by the power of their office should be held
to them too. So I've always maintained that world leaders
should actually be held to the same standard that any
other user on Twitter. Twitter is partly because the idea
(15:46):
of newsworthiness is silly because world leaders have a million
other channels where things that they say are are newsworthy,
but also because it just gives already powerful people an
extra weapon to wield against their political opposition. Another question
I have for you is, you know, I think that
for so long we had this idea that people who
were spreading conspiracy theories and disinformation were like fringe groups.
(16:10):
What is it? How do we combat it? When you
have elected officials, some of us who took part in
the in the you know, insurrection, How do we combat
this idea that we're dealing with a handful of fringe
people when in fact it is it's elected officials. It
is like the official GOP repeating you know, false claims
about Antifa being behind the attacks on the Capitol. How
(16:32):
can we combat it when it's it's in sometimes it's
in some cases seems to have gone so mainstream. Yeah,
I mean, look, the biggest purveyor of disinformation in the
election was Donald Trump, and he used his presidential campaign
and the White House and every lever of federal government
that he had to spread disinformation. Um, that's not fringe.
(16:53):
We've also had an increasing amount of far right candidates
run for office and win. There are currently two members
of Congress who are known believers of Q and on UH,
Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Board in um Colorado. I
don't think I said the latter's name correctly, but it's
fine um so, and we see an increasing amount Like
(17:14):
there's Amanda Littman on Twitter has been keeping a list
of all the state legislators who showed up at the
capitol and were involved in the insurrection. So these folks
have been building political power in the Republican Party for
a long time. They hold elected office. That's not French. Yeah,
that's a great point. You know, when people talk about
how Donald Trump's free speech is being suppressed, he could,
(17:35):
you know, do a press conference, do a press release there.
I mean, presidents were able to get their thoughts out
before social media existed, so he certainly has a plethora
of channels with which to put his opinions out into
the world. And I think it's really something that we're
acting as if, you know, as if the only avenue,
(17:55):
the only avenue that he can do that as social media.
That might be the way that Trump personally feel, but
it is not the case Yeah, Now I really enjoyed
Republicans going on national television complaining about how they're being silence. Yeah,
it's like, oh, I didn't realize that. Uh, if when
you have your speech like suppressed, you get to go
on like the major cable news networks to talk about it. Actually,
(18:17):
And I also think, I mean, I think it really
speaks to this idea of who like free speech for who,
because you know, we know that black activists, progressive groups
have long complained about about being suppressed on social media platforms,
and so those are conversations that completely predate what we're
talking about. And yet now when it's Trump, who who
(18:39):
is you know, having his accounts banned for terms of
service violations repeatedly, that is the free speech issue. But
all of the times where progressive groups and black activists
and folks like that have said, oh, we're being we're
having our are being suppressed on social media platforms, it
didn't seem to be that same issue. M And all
the folks who have been driven and again particularly uh,
black people, people of color, women who have been driven
(19:02):
offline by harassment from these folks, and we don't talk
about that either, like that's a form of d platforming
as well. So this is actually something I know a
bit about firsthand. Once upon a time, I used to
love the social media platform Reddit, and there was a
time in my life where I spent hours every day
moderating a subreddit that I loved, but that i'll ended
after getting a lot of coordinated sexist, racist harassment on
(19:22):
the platform. It pretty quickly became clear that staying on
Reddit would mean subjecting myself to a nonstopped torrent of
harassment and threats. So I left. I had been d platformed.
You know, I as someone who has you know, makes
my living on the internet, and it's been online for
a long time, even before all of this. Something that
I was always struck by is this idea that things
(19:45):
that happen online are aren't real, or don't really matter,
or aren't don't have real world consequences. And I think
that's something that that I have bumped up against pretty
much my whole adult life, that if something happens online,
just shut your computer, you know, go outside. Why don't
you know, delete your Twitter and focus on the real world.
I wonder if we're finally getting to a point where
(20:07):
folks can't say that anymore. Folks can't say like, oh,
it's just happening online, it's just happening on Fortune and
what have you. But actually, what we know these things
have real world consequences. Yeah, I mean, there's just not
a recognition of how much online rhetoric radicalizes folks and
leads to offline action, whether that's terrorism, whether that's online harassment. Um,
(20:29):
in the case of of progressive activists, you know, uh,
your personal safety is often in danger. Uh you know.
I this week might have been a turning point and
understanding that, but I feel like people who just don't
want to think about it, that's an easy thing that
they can say, oh, you know, just turn your computer off. Yeah,
I hate that. I mean the first time that I
ever had, you know, kind of scary harassment online, I
(20:53):
am going to law enforcement and this was many, many
years ago, and it was just so clear to me
that they did not understand what I was describing or
what I was dealing with. And the officer that I
spoke to was like, oh, you should just stay off
of the Internet. And at that point in my life,
I was a budding you know, internet critic and and
budding on it organizer. So I was like, so, essentially,
(21:14):
you're telling me to quit my job, go back to college,
find a brand new career. You know. It is like like,
like this idea that I could just end all of
this by logging off I found to be just really
deeply exposed. How little at that time law enforcement was
taking this seriously. M hmm. Yeah, I mean there's not
(21:35):
a recognition that for so many of us are our
jobs are largely online, and our lives are largely online. Um,
and just logging off just isn't an option for most
of the population exactly. Um. Something that you tweeted that
I found so so interesting. You said, this is the
last gas with the Trump administration, but I worry about
what it might might have birthed. Tell me about that.
(21:56):
What do you think? Where do you think we go
moving forward? Yeah? I mean it's gonna be interesting. And
I think a lot of where we go has to
do with how much we hold the people responsible for
this accountable. Um. You know, if we sweep this under
the rug, we are sending a strong signal that you
can terrorism is an okay way to get what you want, uh, politically,
but I do think it's important to recognize that in
(22:18):
what eight days. Now, Trump is no longer going to
be the president. He's not going to have the power
of the White House, He's not going to have the
power of every agency in the federal government. So his
power to influence is going to be greatly diminished. Um.
And I think Joe Biden has an opportunity, uh, you know,
to hold to hold folks to account, to hold organizations
to account, and really start to get into the systemic
(22:40):
changes that need to happen for this not to happen again. Um.
I think it's also gonna be really interesting to see
what Republicans do, because I mean they're rattled. You saw
McConnell on the floor that night. The man was visibly shaken. Um,
And so is you know, what are what are they
going to do? And that's gonna tell us a lot
about where things are going as well. More. After this break,
(23:12):
let's get right back to it. I've been seeing a
lot of people calling for unity right now, Let's try
to come together. I think the first thing we need
to do as leaders in America is lower the temperature
and try to come together. I think we need to
lower the rhetoric. We need to get some immunity going.
But you can't have unity without accountability without justice. And
(23:34):
as one of the half a million Americans who calls
Washington d see my home, it's obvious we aren't there yet.
Today I'm preparing for an inauguration weekend where it might
not be safe to leave my apartment. I'm buying groceries
and making plans in case the mayor declares an emergency
curfew like she did the day of the riots. I'm
(23:55):
watching elected officials and far right media outlets continue to
traffic and the same kind of baseless conspiracy theories that
got us here in the first place, that quote Antifa
or Democrats are responsible for the terror at the Capitol.
Here's Representative Matt gets repeating a false claim on the
House floor that a facial recognition company found quote Antifa
(24:18):
members were part of the Capital riots. And I don't
know if the reports are true, but the Washington Times
has just reported some pretty compelling evidence from a facial
recognition company showing that some of the people who breached
the capital today we're not Trump supporters. They were masquerading
as Trump supporters and in fact were members of the
(24:40):
violent terrorist group Antifa. That's a total lie, by the way,
The Washington Times attracted the story after the facial recognition
company threatened legal action. So where's the accountability? Melissa hopes
President elect Biden can unite the country, but not without
accountability for everyone, the insurgents who stormed the capital, but
(25:02):
also the elected officials, media outlets, and social media platforms
who helped them get there. So you actually published what
you called a roadmap to accountability. Tell me about that.
I think what has happened here is like you can't
even describe it as a systemic failure. Um. And we all,
I think as Americans have a role to play in
holding institutions and people accountable. UM. So I just mentioned, uh,
(25:26):
you know where I thought were good places to start,
and some of them, you know, we've talked about already,
the tech companies, Trump and his administration, the Republican Party,
law enforcement, um, particularly the white supremacy problem that we
we know and have in law enforcement. UM and and
the rioters themselves. UM And I think what's interesting about
(25:48):
Joe Biden. You know, his most of his rhetoric has
been about unity and coming together, but he's also been
very specific about, uh, the need for accountability. Uh. He
called the rioters seditionists yesterday, which I thought was great. Um.
And when he was introducing his Justice Department nominees, Uh,
(26:08):
he talked about the importance of holding these folks accountable, uh,
calling them out, calling what they did crimes. He called them,
you know, he used the words like terrorism and terrorists. UM.
So I don't necessarily want to discount what Joe Biden
is going to do. So are you hopeful in this moment?
You know, when you think about the state of disinformation
(26:29):
and how we got here, are you hopeful for what's
on the horizon? I mean, I'm not a hopeful person
by nature. If I was, I probably wouldn't do this
work because it would like kill my soul. Um. You know,
I will just say that I can see what's possible. UM.
I have also seen us, you know, particularly in the
past decade of of American politics, make the wrong choice
(26:51):
again and again. But I finally see a landscape where
it is possible to start having some of these changes
and accountability. You know, we have of the Senate, we
have Congress, we have an administration that has signaled they're
they're going to take domestic terrorism and white supremacy and
disinformation seriously, so we have all the pieces in place. Yeah,
(27:11):
that's a good way to think about it. So maybe
not hopeful, but you know, cautiously like we'll see what happens. Yeah. Um. So.
One of my last questions for you is, you know,
I don't that you've written quite a bit about this.
Um women and underrepresented communities are some of the biggest
targets of disinformation that would be disproportionately deal with it.
(27:32):
What does it feel like to know that so many
of so much of the I guess infrastructure of combating
disinformation and violent rhetoric are women? You know? When we
are in these meetings sometimes I look around on zoom
and I'm like, oh, this is all the people who
are here calling for accountability are women? What is it like?
You know? Also seeing when insurrectionists are unmasked online, I
(27:54):
feel a lot of the people doing that very dangerous
but critical work are women. Women exactly like I. I
just want to highlight our role in this work. It's
do you ever feel the same way I do? I
I both feel a great source of pride and then
also of frustration when it's a panel of disinformation and
they try to do all men who work in tech.
(28:15):
Um So, I think it's it's a situation that I
see reflected in politics a lot, where women are like
digging in and doing the work, and you know, a
certain contingent of men are sort of building profiles for themselves.
Um So, I think it's, you know, it's a mixed bag.
I'm really glad to see that that work is happening.
Um but I really wish more women got credit. I
was so happy about, uh you you mentioned women who
(28:38):
were unmasking these guys, the profile in the Washington Post
this weekend um of of Molly Conger and and Emily Gorzewski,
who have been doing this work of unmasking Nazis online
just since Charlotte'sville. And it was so great to see
them get their doe in their credit for this work. Absolutely,
and I also think, you know, not even that long ago,
(29:00):
they were kind of villafied for that work. It was
it was seen as like like starting trouble online. And
now we read I think that now, I hope we're
able to step back and say, actually that that very dangerous,
thankless work they were doing. It's actually a reason why
we're here now. That we have some hope and have
some infrastructure for how we can move on from this
and get accountability. Yeah, and it's been really gratifying seeing
(29:22):
the whole Internet being like, oh, we have to identify
these guys. Um. It still blows my mind how they
were so not worried about consequences that they all live
stream themselves committing crimes in the Capitol. And I mean
it's terrifying, right because I think they truly thought they
were gonna win and hold on to the capital. But
also it's just like, man, it's just the stupidity that's
on display right now. Yeah. I think one of I forget,
(29:44):
I forget which guy it was, but one of his
lawyers was on TV and was like, well, my client
took selfies while doing it, and you know, I'm not
a magician. And I thought, I want to hear your
lawyers say, is I'm not a magician. I watched that
video so many times yesterday. Well do the best that
I can. Oh. It really what a time that we
(30:05):
are living through. Um, Melissa, thank you so much for
taking the time to speak with me. Where can folks
keep up with all the amazing work that you're doing
and support it. Oh, thank you so much. UM, it's
always great to talk to you, Bridget. So you can
subscribe to Control all right, delete at Control all right.
Delete dot com goes out every Sunday night. It's free.
We now have more than sixteen thou weekly readers. UM,
(30:28):
and you can also find me on Twitter at Melissa Ryan.
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
just want to say hi, We'd love to hear from
you at Hello at TANGOI dot com Disinformed brought to
you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's
a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss Creative Jonathan Strickland
is our executive producer. Tary Harrison is our supervising producer
(30:51):
and engineer. Michael Motto is our producer. I'm your host,
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(31:14):
M
You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are
No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. So I
live in Washington, d C. And it's been a rough
few weeks. My city is still reeling from a violent
attack on the Capitol by white supremacist Trump supporters, and
now we're all honkering down to prepare for the threat
(00:24):
of inauguration violence. And I'm still making sense of everything,
how we got here and most importantly, how we moved forward.
And I know I'm not alone. Melissa Ryan is a
long time digital organizer turned extremism and disinformation expert. In October,
we sat down to discuss the ways that she was
seeing disinformation playing out in the lead up to the election. Now,
(00:49):
at the time, we didn't know what would happen in
the election or the kind of violence that would follow.
In hindsight, the signs were always there. But after four years,
you couldn't really blame anybody who was just tuning Trump
out as a coping mechanism. His Twitter feed was an
all caps mishmash of lies, threats, racism, and whatever. Kovifi
(01:10):
is like a lot of us election was a turning
point for Melissa she'd seen violent rhetoric and conspiracy theories online,
but in she remembers the temperature being turned up in
a way she had never seen before. This was different.
It was as if Trump being elected to the White
House just dialed everything up. So why this information? Why
(01:34):
is this something that you've dedicated so much of your
life to? Oh? Lord, I don't know now. I think
It's election really broke me. Um because what I saw
online in the weeks leading up, you know, you know,
I have a long history as an online organizer, um,
and what I was seeing didn't make any sense. Everything
(01:55):
that Trump was doing was overamplified. Nothing that the left
was doing seemed to be getting any play. And there
was just more hate speech, um, and more misogyny uh
than I had ever seen before. And like, I'm a
woman on the internet, so I'm just used to a
baseline of of a certain amount of that, uh, And
it just seemed to be increasing in frequency, uh, and
(02:18):
the danger seemed to be increasing. And after the election,
I decided that I had to make it my job.
Do you feel like I guess maybe this is a
big question, but do you feel when you think of
the state of disinformation and the conversations that we have
online as women, as communities of color. Do you feel
hopeful or do you feel this is a dumpster fire
(02:41):
it will only get worse. That's a good question. I
think it varies from day to day. I think there
are things that make me make me hopeful. Um, you know,
I hope we're about to win an election, um and
send I think a very big message uh, to to
the far right about how America at large feels about them.
(03:04):
But I I do worry. I worry that a lot
of progressives still don't quite understand the problem. That they
think of disinformation as something that affects uh, their their
aunt or uncle who watched Fox News, um, and not
that's largely targeting women or communities of color. Or they
think that it's just going to go away. Uh if
(03:24):
Biden is elected and you know, both of those, uh,
both of those are are incorrect, uh and make me worry.
I'm really worried that if the election goes our way,
then it's gonna be like, Oh, we don't have to
worry about disinformation anymore, we don't have to worry about
hate speech because they're all going to be gone. And
that's just simply not the place Biden was elected, and
once again it was that the temperature got turned up,
(03:48):
only this time it was turned way up. Six days
after watching the violent insurrection take place at the Capitol
that was largely fueled by the repeated, baseless false claim
that Trump won the election and it was being stolen
from him. Melissa and I spoke again where two people
whose work has consisted of warning people that something awful
is coming, trying to get tech companies to take action
(04:11):
to prevent it, and generally waiting through the darkest corners
of the Internet. So if we sound like we're not
in a great place, well we weren't. So I have
to say, you know, we are in this intense moment.
You know, you've been doing this work for such a
long time. Just in general, how the hell are you?
It is like it is a wild time to be
(04:32):
someone who who works in this space. How are you? Yeah?
Thank you for asking. Um, I'm I can't say that
I'm okay, and I don't think that any of us
are okay. Um, it's been it's been such an awful
experience sort of watching this unfold and be organized online
so very publicly, and then every day, we find out
(04:55):
news that says that the attack was much worse, I think,
even than what we real eised. Like the news just
keeps getting worse every day. Um. And it's very it's
very unsettling to think about how many folks who hold
elected office up to the president we're inciting violence, um.
And how many members of Congress and Hill staff and
(05:16):
frankly like support staff, maintenance and food service have to
go back to work with some of these folks every
day less than a week after an attempted coup. I'm
going to be sitting with that for a long time. Yeah,
I definitely feel you on that. I think that's one
of the things that really breaks my heart. You know,
nobody should be going through this full stop. But then
when you think about the other staffers and then just
(05:38):
you know, folks every day, folks in d C who
have the kind of support who don't have the kind
of you know, um, who who maybe are not being
taken care of in this way. Like I remember seeing
an image of the largely black Capitol Hill staffers cleaning
up and I thought, you know, did these folks also
get the benefit of you know, gas mass or detection,
(06:00):
or were they just out here on their own, trying
to do their jobs. Yeah. I read a harrowing anecdote
about how after nine eleven, UM, no one actually came
to evacuate the support staff and tell them that it
was safe. And I'm just thinking like, oh, man, I hope,
I hope that there are better procedures in place now. Um.
(06:22):
There was also an anecdote about how members of Congress
were told that bullet proof vested for reimbursable expense, and
I was like, well, I wonder if you're a food
service worker who's outsourced, I'm guessing it's not a reimbursable
expense or even something that's you know, can be on
your radar. So it's really horrible. A day before the
violent riot at the Capitol, Melissa tweeted, we should probably
(06:45):
talk more about how Donald Trump wants his supporters to
get violent on his behalf tomorrow. He's been encouraging them
to come for weeks and now inciting them. Well, concerns
me is how many people are heading to d C
hoping for violence. So don't seem to be clear with
one another if Trump is supposed to start the insurrection
or if they are her tweet would prove to be prophetic.
(07:09):
Only no one really wants to be able to say
I told you so when they're talking about a violent
mob attack. Yeah, it's I love being right generally in
my life, but there is no worse time to be right,
um than it's uh thinking about a president inciting violence
against Americans. Um. It was horrible. I spent my holidays
(07:29):
at Trump on December nineteenth announced this event and he
said be there be wild um, and he crowd built
for it over Twitter a couple more times. Who could
have seen the events at the Capitol coming Well, pretty
much anyone who is looking. In fact, Trump's own administration
found that home grown white supremacist groups who are growing
(07:49):
spread in America. The Department of Homeland Security called the
threat from white supremacists the most deadly domestic terror threat
facing the country, and yet the Trump administ ttration chose
to instead prioritize what they called quote black identity extremists
or essentially anyone who was black and happened to be
connected to Black Lives Matter, as the bigger threat. What's
(08:11):
hard for Melissa is the fact that these attacks were
so openly planned on social media platforms folks were just
on in mega world were so openly organizing. Um. They
were on the Donald, they were on parlor, in Facebook groups,
and the rhetoric just kept getting increasingly violent. Uh. And
they were talking about storming the capital. They were talking
(08:31):
about how they were going to hang and execute members
of Congress and anyone who was in the deep state. Uh.
And it was all just happening on the out in
the open, and it was very disturbing. Um. And partly
it's very disturbing because it's really hard to tell like
who is fantasizing and who is actually making plans. Yeah,
I can imagine that. And I think from what you
(08:53):
just said, you know, if you knew where to look,
these things were being organized in plain sight. What is
it like then to have so many official kind of
make it seem as though we could never have predicted this,
We could have never prepared for this. What if that?
And it almost kind of feels like a kind of
gas lighting where you're thinking, oh, I literally just saw
this being planned on Twitter dot com in public or
(09:14):
on parlor. You know, having all of these officials kind
of like lean on this language that makes it seem
like no one could have seen this coming. What does
that like to see? Yeah, I mean, what I'll say is,
whiteness is a hell of a drug. It's it's I
have no doubt in my I mean, I think about
how we know law enforcement surveills and infiltrates, uh, supposedly
(09:38):
groups of all political stripes, but we know what happens
to folks on the left. We know what's been happening
to Black Lives Matter. Um. I can't imagine if something
on a Black Lives Matter forum or group or conversation
was said that was like a quarter of this vitriolic
that there wouldn't be just an incredible police presence in response. Um.
And that all this was happening for weeks. And again like,
(09:58):
there's no way folks didn't see what was happening. Um,
it's just that they saw what was happening and chose
not to take it seriously. You know, folks like you
and other organizations and the organization that I represent, Ultraviolet,
We've been calling on tech platforms to take this information
and violent rhetoric on social media seriously forever. I mean,
you and I have been in some of the same
(10:19):
meetings with leadership from companies like Facebook, and Twitter, and
we just listened to them say over and over again, Oh,
we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't
do this, and throw up their hands. And it turns
out they could do it this whole time. Yeah, all
it took was a violent, attempted coup. Um. No. I
mean what I go back to is the tech platforms
and Facebook is the worst actor, but I think, you know,
(10:40):
YouTube and Twitter have to take some heat too. They've
always treated this like a PR problem, and when we
see big changes is after terrible tragic events happen, um,
and then it's like no one could have predicted, no
one could have prevented. Um. Cheryl Sandberg actually had the
audacity to say yesterday that this attack wasn't organized on Facebook,
which was just I don't even know how still, after
(11:02):
all these years you can say that with a straight
face or what PR person would advise you to do that? Um.
But again it's like I think, I hope you know,
we know from news public reporting that Twitter seems to
indicate that part of the reason that they took down
Trump's account and did another round of takedowns was because
of UM intelligence they received about more violence. So I'm
(11:22):
sure that plays into it as well, but after the
past four years, it's hard not to be cynical and
be like, oh, you just see this as another PR problem. Yeah,
I mean I completely agree to to. To go back
to Sheryl Sandbord in that video yesterday, she said, oh,
we Facebook moved to take down all the staff to
steal groups. And I happened to have all my other
(11:43):
monitor Facebook up and I was looking at the group.
So I was like, well, she's telling me that they're down,
but here I am. Here they are with my eyes
looking at them. Well, I mean, how much you know
we talked about being in some of the same meetings.
How how often have you know we've been there with
nonprofit organizations who are saying this is what we're seeing,
this is what it is, here's the list, and then
(12:03):
Facebook dances around it like, oh, they've only had two
strikes and our review is different. And it's just you know,
abdicating responsibility again and again. It's always something it really,
it really is like a crisis of leadership. It's you know,
passing the book. It's blaming you know, contract content moderators
or something. It's it's there's always something I feel where
(12:25):
they're able to really skirt accountability. And I think it's
interesting to watch how quickly they're moving now with how
slowly they've been moving in the past, and how they've
just been, you know, parenting this idea that there's not
much they can do when it's clear that's not the case. Yeah,
you said in the early days of COVID too. I mean,
I think Facebook took a lot more proactive action than
(12:47):
they have in the past because they could sort of,
you know, see what was coming, and they still didn't
do enough. But it's like, well, we know you can
move fast when you need to. What was your reaction
to Trump being kicked off social media, you know, first
Facebook and then Twitter. I was it was truly stunned
when he was finally, uh suspended from Twitter, especially when
it was permanent. I remember, just like that night, just
like staring at the space where his page used to be. Um,
(13:10):
I think I've tweeted you know, your moment of zen
And honestly, like selfishly, I was like, oh my god,
I'm never gonna have to wake up and wonder what
he tweeted. Um, I'm never gonna have to worry if
he like started a war or fired someone or anything
over Twitter. UM. So personally, uh, it was God, it
was like this giant weight had been lifted off. I
(13:32):
have seen so many people, some of whom are people
that I respect or who's you know, I think are
thoughtful people making this argument of like, well, if they
can do this to Trump because they don't like what
he has to say, who what's stopping them from doing
it to me or to you or to anybody else?
Making Trump being de platformed about a free speech issue?
Do do you believe that Trump being de platform FUM,
(13:54):
Facebook and Twitter and social media is a free speech issue.
I don't, because again, he was inciting violence, and uh,
when we're talking about free speech, we're talking about free
speech of a select few, and it completely ignores everyone
who has been uh d platformed or harassed offline over
the number of years by these same folks. UM. I
(14:15):
also think the world leader Twitter's World leaders policy in
particular is something we haven't talked about enough in this
UM and I think, you know, I've got kind of
an obsession with it. UM for a long time. Twitter,
if you were a world leader, they were going to
leave your tweet up No matter what it was, because
it was newsworthy UM. And basically what that did was
it gave world leaders another weapon to abuse UM. And
(14:37):
obviously every world leader isn't going to abuse it, but
it was. If you know that your tweet is not
going to be taken down, that gives you a lot
more leeway to do things like incite violence and make threats.
Let's take a quick break and we're back. I wish
(15:04):
we lived in a world where world leaders could be
trusted to not incite violence and make threats, but let's
be real, that's not the world. Americans have spent the
last four years living in the seductive power of violence
and threats, combined with the power of unrestricted social media access,
proved to be too much for demagogues like Trump to resist.
Social media companies need to be held accountable when their
(15:26):
platforms are used to spread hatred and incite violence. There
need to be standards, and elected officials whose voices are
amplified by the power of their office should be held
to them too. So I've always maintained that world leaders
should actually be held to the same standard that any
other user on Twitter. Twitter is partly because the idea
(15:46):
of newsworthiness is silly because world leaders have a million
other channels where things that they say are are newsworthy,
but also because it just gives already powerful people an
extra weapon to wield against their political opposition. Another question
I have for you is, you know, I think that
for so long we had this idea that people who
were spreading conspiracy theories and disinformation were like fringe groups.
(16:10):
What is it? How do we combat it? When you
have elected officials, some of us who took part in
the in the you know, insurrection, How do we combat
this idea that we're dealing with a handful of fringe
people when in fact it is it's elected officials. It
is like the official GOP repeating you know, false claims
about Antifa being behind the attacks on the Capitol. How
(16:32):
can we combat it when it's it's in sometimes it's
in some cases seems to have gone so mainstream. Yeah,
I mean, look, the biggest purveyor of disinformation in the
election was Donald Trump, and he used his presidential campaign
and the White House and every lever of federal government
that he had to spread disinformation. Um, that's not fringe.
(16:53):
We've also had an increasing amount of far right candidates
run for office and win. There are currently two members
of Congress who are known believers of Q and on UH,
Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Board in um Colorado. I
don't think I said the latter's name correctly, but it's
fine um so, and we see an increasing amount Like
(17:14):
there's Amanda Littman on Twitter has been keeping a list
of all the state legislators who showed up at the
capitol and were involved in the insurrection. So these folks
have been building political power in the Republican Party for
a long time. They hold elected office. That's not French. Yeah,
that's a great point. You know, when people talk about
how Donald Trump's free speech is being suppressed, he could,
(17:35):
you know, do a press conference, do a press release there.
I mean, presidents were able to get their thoughts out
before social media existed, so he certainly has a plethora
of channels with which to put his opinions out into
the world. And I think it's really something that we're
acting as if, you know, as if the only avenue,
(17:55):
the only avenue that he can do that as social media.
That might be the way that Trump personally feel, but
it is not the case Yeah, Now I really enjoyed
Republicans going on national television complaining about how they're being silence. Yeah,
it's like, oh, I didn't realize that. Uh, if when
you have your speech like suppressed, you get to go
on like the major cable news networks to talk about it. Actually,
(18:17):
And I also think, I mean, I think it really
speaks to this idea of who like free speech for who,
because you know, we know that black activists, progressive groups
have long complained about about being suppressed on social media platforms,
and so those are conversations that completely predate what we're
talking about. And yet now when it's Trump, who who
(18:39):
is you know, having his accounts banned for terms of
service violations repeatedly, that is the free speech issue. But
all of the times where progressive groups and black activists
and folks like that have said, oh, we're being we're
having our are being suppressed on social media platforms, it
didn't seem to be that same issue. M And all
the folks who have been driven and again particularly uh,
black people, people of color, women who have been driven
(19:02):
offline by harassment from these folks, and we don't talk
about that either, like that's a form of d platforming
as well. So this is actually something I know a
bit about firsthand. Once upon a time, I used to
love the social media platform Reddit, and there was a
time in my life where I spent hours every day
moderating a subreddit that I loved, but that i'll ended
after getting a lot of coordinated sexist, racist harassment on
(19:22):
the platform. It pretty quickly became clear that staying on
Reddit would mean subjecting myself to a nonstopped torrent of
harassment and threats. So I left. I had been d platformed.
You know, I as someone who has you know, makes
my living on the internet, and it's been online for
a long time, even before all of this. Something that
I was always struck by is this idea that things
(19:45):
that happen online are aren't real, or don't really matter,
or aren't don't have real world consequences. And I think
that's something that that I have bumped up against pretty
much my whole adult life, that if something happens online,
just shut your computer, you know, go outside. Why don't
you know, delete your Twitter and focus on the real world.
I wonder if we're finally getting to a point where
(20:07):
folks can't say that anymore. Folks can't say like, oh,
it's just happening online, it's just happening on Fortune and
what have you. But actually, what we know these things
have real world consequences. Yeah, I mean, there's just not
a recognition of how much online rhetoric radicalizes folks and
leads to offline action, whether that's terrorism, whether that's online harassment. Um,
(20:29):
in the case of of progressive activists, you know, uh,
your personal safety is often in danger. Uh you know.
I this week might have been a turning point and
understanding that, but I feel like people who just don't
want to think about it, that's an easy thing that
they can say, oh, you know, just turn your computer off. Yeah,
I hate that. I mean the first time that I
ever had, you know, kind of scary harassment online, I
(20:53):
am going to law enforcement and this was many, many
years ago, and it was just so clear to me
that they did not understand what I was describing or
what I was dealing with. And the officer that I
spoke to was like, oh, you should just stay off
of the Internet. And at that point in my life,
I was a budding you know, internet critic and and
budding on it organizer. So I was like, so, essentially,
(21:14):
you're telling me to quit my job, go back to college,
find a brand new career. You know. It is like like,
like this idea that I could just end all of
this by logging off I found to be just really
deeply exposed. How little at that time law enforcement was
taking this seriously. M hmm. Yeah, I mean there's not
(21:35):
a recognition that for so many of us are our
jobs are largely online, and our lives are largely online. Um,
and just logging off just isn't an option for most
of the population exactly. Um. Something that you tweeted that
I found so so interesting. You said, this is the
last gas with the Trump administration, but I worry about
what it might might have birthed. Tell me about that.
(21:56):
What do you think? Where do you think we go
moving forward? Yeah? I mean it's gonna be interesting. And
I think a lot of where we go has to
do with how much we hold the people responsible for
this accountable. Um. You know, if we sweep this under
the rug, we are sending a strong signal that you
can terrorism is an okay way to get what you want, uh, politically,
but I do think it's important to recognize that in
(22:18):
what eight days. Now, Trump is no longer going to
be the president. He's not going to have the power
of the White House, He's not going to have the
power of every agency in the federal government. So his
power to influence is going to be greatly diminished. Um.
And I think Joe Biden has an opportunity, uh, you know,
to hold to hold folks to account, to hold organizations
to account, and really start to get into the systemic
(22:40):
changes that need to happen for this not to happen again. Um.
I think it's also gonna be really interesting to see
what Republicans do, because I mean they're rattled. You saw
McConnell on the floor that night. The man was visibly shaken. Um,
And so is you know, what are what are they
going to do? And that's gonna tell us a lot
about where things are going as well. More. After this break,
(23:12):
let's get right back to it. I've been seeing a
lot of people calling for unity right now, Let's try
to come together. I think the first thing we need
to do as leaders in America is lower the temperature
and try to come together. I think we need to
lower the rhetoric. We need to get some immunity going.
But you can't have unity without accountability without justice. And
(23:34):
as one of the half a million Americans who calls
Washington d see my home, it's obvious we aren't there yet.
Today I'm preparing for an inauguration weekend where it might
not be safe to leave my apartment. I'm buying groceries
and making plans in case the mayor declares an emergency
curfew like she did the day of the riots. I'm
(23:55):
watching elected officials and far right media outlets continue to
traffic and the same kind of baseless conspiracy theories that
got us here in the first place, that quote Antifa
or Democrats are responsible for the terror at the Capitol.
Here's Representative Matt gets repeating a false claim on the
House floor that a facial recognition company found quote Antifa
(24:18):
members were part of the Capital riots. And I don't
know if the reports are true, but the Washington Times
has just reported some pretty compelling evidence from a facial
recognition company showing that some of the people who breached
the capital today we're not Trump supporters. They were masquerading
as Trump supporters and in fact were members of the
(24:40):
violent terrorist group Antifa. That's a total lie, by the way,
The Washington Times attracted the story after the facial recognition
company threatened legal action. So where's the accountability? Melissa hopes
President elect Biden can unite the country, but not without
accountability for everyone, the insurgents who stormed the capital, but
(25:02):
also the elected officials, media outlets, and social media platforms
who helped them get there. So you actually published what
you called a roadmap to accountability. Tell me about that.
I think what has happened here is like you can't
even describe it as a systemic failure. Um. And we all,
I think as Americans have a role to play in
holding institutions and people accountable. UM. So I just mentioned, uh,
(25:26):
you know where I thought were good places to start,
and some of them, you know, we've talked about already,
the tech companies, Trump and his administration, the Republican Party,
law enforcement, um, particularly the white supremacy problem that we
we know and have in law enforcement. UM and and
the rioters themselves. UM And I think what's interesting about
(25:48):
Joe Biden. You know, his most of his rhetoric has
been about unity and coming together, but he's also been
very specific about, uh, the need for accountability. Uh. He
called the rioters seditionists yesterday, which I thought was great. Um.
And when he was introducing his Justice Department nominees, Uh,
(26:08):
he talked about the importance of holding these folks accountable, uh,
calling them out, calling what they did crimes. He called them,
you know, he used the words like terrorism and terrorists. UM.
So I don't necessarily want to discount what Joe Biden
is going to do. So are you hopeful in this moment?
You know, when you think about the state of disinformation
(26:29):
and how we got here, are you hopeful for what's
on the horizon? I mean, I'm not a hopeful person
by nature. If I was, I probably wouldn't do this
work because it would like kill my soul. Um. You know,
I will just say that I can see what's possible. UM.
I have also seen us, you know, particularly in the
past decade of of American politics, make the wrong choice
(26:51):
again and again. But I finally see a landscape where
it is possible to start having some of these changes
and accountability. You know, we have of the Senate, we
have Congress, we have an administration that has signaled they're
they're going to take domestic terrorism and white supremacy and
disinformation seriously, so we have all the pieces in place. Yeah,
(27:11):
that's a good way to think about it. So maybe
not hopeful, but you know, cautiously like we'll see what happens. Yeah. Um. So.
One of my last questions for you is, you know,
I don't that you've written quite a bit about this.
Um women and underrepresented communities are some of the biggest
targets of disinformation that would be disproportionately deal with it.
(27:32):
What does it feel like to know that so many
of so much of the I guess infrastructure of combating
disinformation and violent rhetoric are women? You know? When we
are in these meetings sometimes I look around on zoom
and I'm like, oh, this is all the people who
are here calling for accountability are women? What is it like?
You know? Also seeing when insurrectionists are unmasked online, I
(27:54):
feel a lot of the people doing that very dangerous
but critical work are women. Women exactly like I. I
just want to highlight our role in this work. It's
do you ever feel the same way I do? I
I both feel a great source of pride and then
also of frustration when it's a panel of disinformation and
they try to do all men who work in tech.
(28:15):
Um So, I think it's it's a situation that I
see reflected in politics a lot, where women are like
digging in and doing the work, and you know, a
certain contingent of men are sort of building profiles for themselves.
Um So, I think it's, you know, it's a mixed bag.
I'm really glad to see that that work is happening.
Um but I really wish more women got credit. I
was so happy about, uh you you mentioned women who
(28:38):
were unmasking these guys, the profile in the Washington Post
this weekend um of of Molly Conger and and Emily Gorzewski,
who have been doing this work of unmasking Nazis online
just since Charlotte'sville. And it was so great to see
them get their doe in their credit for this work. Absolutely,
and I also think, you know, not even that long ago,
(29:00):
they were kind of villafied for that work. It was
it was seen as like like starting trouble online. And
now we read I think that now, I hope we're
able to step back and say, actually that that very dangerous,
thankless work they were doing. It's actually a reason why
we're here now. That we have some hope and have
some infrastructure for how we can move on from this
and get accountability. Yeah, and it's been really gratifying seeing
(29:22):
the whole Internet being like, oh, we have to identify
these guys. Um. It still blows my mind how they
were so not worried about consequences that they all live
stream themselves committing crimes in the Capitol. And I mean
it's terrifying, right because I think they truly thought they
were gonna win and hold on to the capital. But
also it's just like, man, it's just the stupidity that's
on display right now. Yeah. I think one of I forget,
(29:44):
I forget which guy it was, but one of his
lawyers was on TV and was like, well, my client
took selfies while doing it, and you know, I'm not
a magician. And I thought, I want to hear your
lawyers say, is I'm not a magician. I watched that
video so many times yesterday. Well do the best that
I can. Oh. It really what a time that we
(30:05):
are living through. Um, Melissa, thank you so much for
taking the time to speak with me. Where can folks
keep up with all the amazing work that you're doing
and support it. Oh, thank you so much. UM, it's
always great to talk to you, Bridget. So you can
subscribe to Control all right, delete at Control all right.
Delete dot com goes out every Sunday night. It's free.
We now have more than sixteen thou weekly readers. UM,
(30:28):
and you can also find me on Twitter at Melissa Ryan.
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
just want to say hi, We'd love to hear from
you at Hello at TANGOI dot com Disinformed brought to
you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's
a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss Creative Jonathan Strickland
is our executive producer. Tary Harrison is our supervising producer
(30:51):
and engineer. Michael Motto is our producer. I'm your host,
Bridget Dad. For more great podcasts, check out the iHeart
Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
(31:14):
M
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