August 5, 2025 • 37 mins
Everyone is asking questions about Trump’s connections to Jefferey Epstein, but the president isn’t the only powerful person or institution linked to him.
You might know that connections to convicted sex criminal Jeffrey Epstein led to the resignation of the director of the MIT Media Lab, Joi Ito, after a Ronan Farrow exposé.
But fewer people know that Arwa Mboya, an MIT student and Kenyan virtual reality programmer, bravely called for Ito to step down before Farrow’s piece. She was isolated and attacked for her bravery, before history proved her right. Mboya talks about how the bravery and community of women and girls gave her the courage to take a stand.
Here’s our recent episode looking at Trump’s connections to Epstein: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/epstein-files-firestorm-shows-the-power-of/id1520715907?i=1000718024227
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against minors,
and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls
on the Internet as a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls
(00:20):
on the Internet.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
One of the biggest questions making the rounds is what
exactly is Donald Trump's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. We recently
broke down why those questions still linger and what they
might mean in a recent episode of the show, which
will put in the show notes. But Trump is not
the only powerful figure with ties to Epstein. In fact,
one of the very first episodes we ever did on
(00:44):
There Are No Girls on the Internet was a conversation
with Kenyan technologist Autowa Umboya. Back then, Audiba was a
grad student at MIT's influential Media Lab and became one
of the first people to publicly call out her own
university's connections to Epstein, ultimately calling for the resignation of
the lab's director over it. It was one of the
(01:04):
stories that initially inspired me to start this podcast in
the first place. You know, here was this brave student
speaking up about what she knew to be wrong in
her own tech community, and instead of support, she faced
a tax for it. And I guess that's tale as
old as time, the cost of being right. So today
we're revisiting that important conversation you've probably heard about American
(01:30):
financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled guilty and was convicted in
two thousand and eight of procuring an underage girl for sex.
In July of last year, he was arrested on charges
of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking.
He was found dead in prison in August. In addition
to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton,
Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, and incredibly accused rapist President
(01:53):
Donald Trump, Epstein also had deep connections to the tech
world despite being a convicted sex offender. On September seventh,
Ronan Faroh published an expos in The New Yorker that
found that the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or MIT, had
a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein that it had previously acknowledged,
even as officials knew he was a convicted sex offender,
(02:14):
and that the university went to great lengths to cover
it up. Now, here's just some of what Pharaoh found.
Even though Epstein was disqualified a MIT's official donor database,
the Media Lab continued to accept money from him, consulted
him about the use of funds, and, by marking his
contributions as anonymous, avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly
and within the university. Epstein appeared to act as a
(02:36):
go between for wealthy donors like Bill Gates to pump
money into MIT. According to Pharaoh, MIT's efforts to conceal
Epstein's connections to the university went so far that staff
referred to Epstein as Voldemort or he who must not
be named. Whistleblower Sidney Swinson, a former MIT development associate,
told Pharaoh that the lab's leadership made it explicit even
in her earliest days with them, that Epstein's donations had
(02:58):
to be kept secret. Staffers knew about MIT's relationship with Epstein.
Prominent faculty adviser Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's
piece was published. Joy Eto, the director of the MIT
Media Lab, resigned in.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
The latest fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein. MIT is opening
an investigation into its ties to the financier and convicted
sex offender. The announcement came just one day after The
New Yorker revealed that MIT's Media Lab was attempting to
conceal donations from Epstein.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Now there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein, but
this story isn't really about him. It's about courage, community,
and power. We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes,
and most people credit Ronan Faroh with bringing their full
scope to light. But even before Ronan Pharaoh's piece was published,
women in the MIT community spoke up, and we should
(03:52):
honor their voices too.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
To the Future, MIT's Media Lab a place that follows
crazy ideas, where they may le.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
We get to think about the future. What does the
world look like ten years, twenty years, thirty is what should.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
It look like? The MIT Media Lab is an important place.
CBS even dubbed it the future Factory, and it's where technologists.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Ottawa Mboya knew she had to be.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Yeah, I came here because it is sort of a
place for misfits.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
The Media Lab.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
It is intodisciplinary and has sort of the intersection of
tech and art and design and that was what I
was looking for. When I graduated from undergrad I worked
for a couple of years back in Airobi, where I'm from,
and became a VR developer.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
On the side on top of my job and needed.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
To I was sort of like looking for somewhere to
find myself and had heard about the Media Lab and
how sort of civic minded. One of the groups was
called Civic Media and our motto is a tech for
social change, and I was like, well, that sounds like
exactly what I want to do.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, so I applied and then it worked out.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Ottawa was raised and shaped by a community of strong,
resilient women, and that upbringing has been a big part
of how she shows up to the world today.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I mean my work is always about women, and it's
always about It's always about.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Women in Africa. Sometimes it's a bit more general than that.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
But I have worked in Nairobi my whole life. I've
studied away from Nairobi, but always try to bring back
my research and the questions that I'm asking to home
and the woman that I've worked with in informal sentiments
in Kenya. But you know, that's just my research. But
(05:43):
how I approach studying and how I approach being in
big institutions is definitely sort of inspired by how I
was raised.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
By my mom and my grandma, and I have like.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
A thousand aunts. Grew up in something of a matriarchy,
I would say so. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You were raised in like a community of strong, badass women.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Yeah, and like really scary ones too, so like you
look at them with a lot of love and admiration
but also a lot of fear.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Audible works with virtual reality, so that means she has
to be able to imagine worlds that haven't even been
seen yet. It's a spirit that drives her both personally
and professionally. Do you think that that sort of work
has helped you kind of imagine a future where things
can be better than they are?
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Yeah, I think so, I would say so. I think
I've always sort of had that in me before I
started playing on VR and AI, and I think those
projects are sort of things that are already within me
as opposed to things that have made me think a
certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just
reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men. Actually,
(06:49):
my grand both my grandpas are fantastic men and have
been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya differently.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah, I would say it's totally in me.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
And you know, when I wrote that, it wasn't even
so much that I was so when I was sort
of talking against my director. It wasn't even so much
that I was imagining a different future. It was more
like this current present is something is off, something is
not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up
is if something's not right, you fix it or you
(07:24):
say something about it, but you don't sit around and
do nothing.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
As a grad student in the Media Lab, Ottawa published
a piece in the Tech MIT Student publication about the
university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it, she called for
the resignation of Joy Eto, the head of the MIT
Media Lab. Her piece ran weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would
go on to echo her points in his New Yorker
expose on September seventh. The only difference is Ottawa called
(07:48):
for Eto to resign, and after Pharaoh's piece was published,
he actually did did you ever feel like people have
an easier time taking this situation seriously when it's reported
by a white man, I mean.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
And I appreciate Ronan Pharaoh's work a lot, and we
actually got to meet him and we kind of talked
about this. But you know, Senior Swenson, she was the
real hero of the story. I mean, she was the
actual whistle blower. And sometimes people treat me like I
was a whistle blower when I didn't whistle blow anything.
I just have the same information that everybody else had
and sort of said my opinion about it. And for sure,
(08:25):
I mean, even on the comments on my article, like
there were so many comments I had to do with
my race and ethnicity and where I'm from, as opposed
to you know, not agreeing with me and my ideas.
It was very much like, well, you're not from America,
you don't know what we're talking about. And then Ronan
Pharaoh writes this article, and of course everyone just jumped ship.
(08:46):
And you know, I totally understood my director resigning after that.
I was just more shocked of how many people said, oh,
we were wrong after the article, because to me, it's
kind of like we are.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
He had that.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Information beforehand, and people had made up those decisions, their
decisions to support him at that point, and it's only
when a powerful and not just white man, they're a
powerful white man writes about it that it's enough to
sort of swaye people's opinions or feelings, or at least
their vocal ones.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So I heard an NPR interview where you described your
meeting with Edo, where he basically said, I agree with
all the things that you're saying, all the things that
you say.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I did.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
I totally did.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose
my job over it.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Yeah, And there were a lot of people who felt
that way, and a lot of people still feel that
way because he kind of was the heart of the
Media Lab and a lot of people dependent on him
for their projects, for funding, for you know, other people
were coming into the Media Lab for the first time
under his leadership. So it makes sense that some people
(09:52):
feel that way. I think the Ronan Pharaoh thing was
interesting because we had that conversation one afternoon, and then
it was that same afternoon that Ronan Farrah's article dropped,
So he between our meeting and him resigning was maybe
four to five hours, like really not much. Yeah, so
(10:13):
you know, it was overall like really shocking, but to
me that's again a power thing. It's totally different situation
if one first year massive student who you know has
no power whatsoever, says you should resign, and it's a
totally different thing. If Ronan Pharaoh comes after you and
he has a lot of mistake. It's not just his
(10:35):
job at the media leve. He has a lot of
venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that I
think must have been in his head to protect. But yeah,
I mean, I don't know what it was that made
him cave in at that moment.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's easy to think about marginalized people who speak up
in these situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers
being pretty scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength
from the courage of other women and girls on the continent.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
The fear I was feeling was actually from my mom
because she didn't want me to write the article and
I don't like disagreeing with my mom that we just
did on this particular issue. And she was coming from
a perspective of fear or trying to take care of
her baby that she was sent to America to study,
like you know that she was scared that something might
(11:21):
happen to my degree, or that I might lose my
visa or something and not be able to finish.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
But I don't know. I didn't have that fear so much.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And I had just happened to be reading a really
amazing book called Beneath the tamer And Tree, which is
by Isshus to say of CNN about the Baccoharan bring
Back our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of
courage there was so wild that it just so happened
(11:50):
that this is all happening at the same time, and
I'm seeing myself as such a small player and seeing
the thing that I want to do is not that
big compared to some of the things that these girls
went through and some of the things that they fought
for against literal terrorists.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And I was like, Okay, if they have this.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Kind of courage to stand with a gun to their
face and not change their religion because it's what they
believe in, then if I believe in this thing, you know,
the least I can do is say it with my chest,
you know. So that was how I was feeling. So
I was actually feeling like kind of empowered and inspired
(12:29):
while I was writing it. I sometimes describe myself as
a radical feminist, but there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Radical about it.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
It's just that the word feminists sometimes seems radical to people.
But I just am a product of so many amazing
women that it's not shocking that I search for even
more inspiration from other women on the continent or on
the world.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
After her letter calling for Eto to resign was published,
things got rough for Ottawa. So what was the climate
like for you at MIT? Do you publish your piece.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Whom it sucked?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
I mean, the very next day or the day after
I published this article, like a website comes out saying
resupport to retail and it's signed by like, you know,
pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and
it's signed by all, you know, my colleagues and all
these people, and it's a direct response to my one article.
(13:27):
And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting,
you know, some not nice comments, but I was able
to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it
really highlighted to me how fearful people can get when
you speak the truth or when you say your own truth.
Because for me, a whole website springing up was like
it's signed with all these hundreds of names just because
(13:51):
one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and
that student has no power. Like I don't know why
there was so much fear, so much anger, so much
defense because nobody else. There was lots of articles about it.
There was lots of articles that were very non partisan
and saying what happened, but nobody asked for him to
(14:13):
be resigned, to resign except me. And it's almost as
if like that one statement or that one article, like
it was like away through the media lab and everyone
was like pushing back, as if what I said might
sort of break the whole media lab or make it
fall apart, and some people till today, I think it's
my fault, like for sure, and you know, there's nothing
(14:36):
I can do about that, and I'm not going.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
To sort of try to pander to those people. But
I don't know. It just showed me. It really taught
me the power of words.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
We'll be right back after this quick break, and we're
back by establishing financial relationships with respected organizations like mit
Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, protection
and most importantly, reputational redemption. Once you've got the protection
(15:09):
of that kind of power, it can be hard to
penetrate power. Powerful friends, powerful names, powerful money. All of
it makes it harder for people who exist outside of
that power to speak out about bad behavior. Why do
you think the media lab overlooked Epstein's crimes? Do you
think it was just the money and they didn't care
where it came from, or do you think it was
(15:30):
something else.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I know that some people knew and some people didn't know,
so I can really only speak for the person that
I know for sure knew, which is Joey, and the
rest I don't know. And you know, he wielded a
lot of power in this lab. We do know for
a fact that there were people who who including my
advisor Ethan Zuckermann, who spoke out and said that this
(15:54):
was not a good idea and said that we shouldn't
take money from Epstein, and they were ignored. The hardcore
truth is that money is power, and there is a
massive incentive to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're
going to get power by ignoring them. I think the
(16:16):
other thing to remember with the Epstein situation is that
he wasn't giving the media that much money anyway. I
think a lot of the money that was an MIT
report just came out on the funding issue, and we
found out that Joey was actually trying to secure much
bigger part of funding for his own venture capital funds,
(16:36):
so huge incentive to ignore what was sort of on
the surface. And then the other thing is just I
don't think men get it all the time, like I
don't think I sometimes I really think that some people
thought that it's just not that big a deal because
they have no understanding on what that relationship even in
(17:00):
and off itself, but without money means for the victims
of Epstein's we have no idea how this consolidation of
power represses the victims and silences them.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
It only sounds like Epstein was trying to use his
money to kind of create this cover so that if
anybody ever tried to call him out on his actions,
he could just be like, oh, well, look at all
these powerful influential men I surround myself with.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
In some ways was really smart because he didn't actually
have that much money. He wasn't a Bill Gates, but
had enough to sort of know the right people and
actually build a social circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen,
and it was so strong that everybody wanted to be
(17:47):
a part of it, and it was Epstein's name that
you had to know to get sort of in that circle.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Ottawa still thinks highly of MIT, but the backlash she
faced for speaking out against joy Eto showed her that
things are not always as shiny as they look from
the outside.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
And I think the media of you know, it's hard
because I love this place, like I've had a fantastic
two years. I've learned so much, I've grown so much,
and I wouldn't change it for anything, But I think
this experience has just been such an example of that.
Because it's so shiny on the outside, like it's so glamorous,
(18:23):
everyone wants to be here. But that doesn't that doesn't
mean that we don't have issues, institutional issues of power
and race and class and all these other things that
might make the place sound not so amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Do you think that there should be more scrutiny on
other powerful men who had like financial entanglements with Epstein.
I feel like a lot of them have sort of
been able to skirt public scrutiny and like public question
asking about what exactly their dealings with this person were.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
You know from the out I mean, because I can't
speak for much more than MIT, but I know, you know,
even Harvard had relations with took a lot of money
from Epstein, but they just declined to even talk about it,
and so it just they sort of took the mom
path and everyone forgot about it, whereas at amit it
was so widely talked about. And Epstein's network is so
(19:20):
extensive that going through every single man who interacted with him,
or a woman for that matter, actually who interacted with
him and took money from him, and what they knew
and how they knew it is extremely difficult. So I
don't know how to do that. But there should be
a way larger conversation around these networks of power, whether
(19:45):
we isolate individuals within them or not. And I think
that also has a lot to do with who's willing
to speak, who's willing to come forward with information, because
the last way, you know, when we don't know anything,
all we can do is speculate, and they have power,
and that doesn't really work. So yeah, I don't know.
I feel like everyone should be all accountable, for sure,
but it's I don't even know where you start with Epstein.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
You know, I almost wonder if this is part of
the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his money in so
many powerful places and hands and institutions that untangling it
almost seems kind of impossible.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yeah, And I'm a firm belief of nothing as impossible.
But you know, there's such a close link. And I'm
not saying that anyone who took his money did anything
more than that, but there is, you know, especially with
the people who are closer with him, there is a
link with those people and victims, you know. And I
think right now what needs to happen is that the victims'
(20:40):
narratives need to be centered, you know, and the people
who have been hurt by Epstein need to have space
to say, you know, this is how it was hurt,
this is a feeling, this is what I need to
recover and sort of if they feel up for it,
these are the people who hurt me.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Beyond Epstein, it's hard to admit that people and institute
that mean a lot to us are actually fostering abusive behavior.
Joey was a beloved figure at MIT, and that made
it that much harder for the community to reckon with
the fact that he enabled, benefited from, and covered up
for an abuser.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and
inspiration and resource to the media, lab, students, and faculty
that people didn't want to believe that, you know, he
had done this thing that they didn't agree with, And
it was much easier if we just said, okay, Asha,
(21:34):
let's sweep it under the rug and move on and
pretend like this never happened. And so I understand that
to some degree. But you know, the world is like
constantly changing, and I think if you're sort of always
that person on the bottom of the ladder in certain societies,
like it's always it always comes from the bottom up,
like it's always that change and institution is never going
(21:56):
to happen by the people who for who the institution
is working, and the media was working for me, it
wasn't you know, I was having a great time, but
I didn't have the same feelings about the director that
most of my naysay has had. You know, I wasn't
actually giving up I don't know, funding for a specific
(22:17):
project by calling him out, So in other ways it
was easier for me than I you know, I get
why it was easier for me than other people. But
for a place that calls itself the future factory, for
a place that prides itself in imagining and creating the
future literally, like, the standard has got to be higher,
(22:38):
and it's got to be higher, not from a tech perspective,
but from a human perspective too.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
And so this is where it starts to look like
the Academy Awards. So first I want to invite up
the winners of the two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
Disobedience Award, the second largest cast prize at MIT, I
would say, after the Levelson Award for Innovation. So Tyranna
Burg and Sherry Marts and Beth M mclough and purs
come up with this award, we are recognizing their leadership
(23:08):
and dedication in amplifying the voices of survivors of sexual
violence and harassment, fom manning positive change towards gender equality,
and demonstrating defiance in the face of oppression and apathy.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
In twenty seventeen, MIT started the Disobedience Award, a yearly
award given to people in tech who speak truth to power.
The award came with a two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars No Strings Attached prize. In twenty eighteen, it was
awarded to me Too creator Toronto Burke, Beth Ann McLaughlin
and Shara mart as representatives of me Too and the
METO and STEM movement that highlighted people speaking up against
(23:42):
sexual harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass
orb and in a particularly disgusting piece of irony because
of his financial contributions to MIT, convicted sex offender and
serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award
that same year.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Two.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I know you're in fere now, but this is where
the story gets a little bit brighter. My friend Sabrina
hersy Lisa, is the kind of person I hope that
you all have in your lives. Mentor doesn't really cover
just how impactful she's been in my own life. She's
a human rights technologist and the founder of b Bold Media,
and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting other women or speaking
truth to power, even when she gets shipped for it.
(24:21):
Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, but she did read
her story.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
A friend of mine sent me a link to Ottawa's
off ed in the MIT student newspaper, and when I
read it, I thought it was so At first, I
thought this was so beautifully written, and it was written
from a place of love and in leadership, and from
clearly this was a voice of someone who cares deeply
(24:47):
not just for women and children, but also for a community.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Then I saw the arc of how her off.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
Ed was being received in MIT community and in the
broader technology community, and that is when things started to
not sit well with me in our in bridget our
share of women in technology community. I saw Ottawa's ap
ed being received as like, this is a great call
for a student, but it also I saw a lot
(25:16):
of echoing of helplessness from very powerful women in technology,
and a lot of ringing of hands and a lot
of oh what do we do now?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Or I feel hopeless?
Speaker 7 (25:28):
And when I read Ottawa's op ed, I felt the
opposite of hopeless.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
I felt hope.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
I felt Oh, if this is what someone could say
with so much to lose and so much on the line,
then anything as possible. And then I saw it absorbed
in the broader public conversation around Epstein and MIT, and
I saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed at her
(25:56):
I saw Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem
instead of a blessing.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
And I was not okay watching that.
Speaker 7 (26:06):
I saw you know, Reddit forums where people were like,
if she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa.
I saw a lot of hate being seen on Twitter.
I saw so like the further the rings of influence
went out, the more I saw this woman's brave call
of public leadership being received, how most black women who
(26:28):
are moral, who practice moral courage in public spaces being received.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
And I was not okay with that.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
And you know me, and you know I walked through
fires in the past where that was the arc that
played out, and I knew I could not in good
conscious say that, do nothing and be okay with that,
or say nothing and do it and be okay with that.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
More, there are no girls on the internet after this
quick break, and we're back, even though they had never met.
Sabrina was inspired by Ottawa's actions at MIT. She remembered
all the times in her own career that she's got
against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it. Speaking
(27:21):
out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't be watched
the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her
being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right,
even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact
same thing. And while his reporting was a big part
of why do stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was
risking his personal safety by speaking up.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
It was Ottawa.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
The thing about this that really struck me was not
just the vulnerability of her visibility, like when she did
speak that step up and speak out and say something,
she was met with not even no no support, but
with a lot of hatred and anger, but the visibility
of her leadership.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Win a white guy says the.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
Same thing that she said, and he's not even a
part of the MIT community. His safety grown and girls,
his safety was never going in question. And I wasn't
okay with watching yet another pattern of someone outside of
a community and institution with prestige being validated as a
(28:25):
legitimate voice. I didn't want to be a I didn't
want my silence to be complicit in continuing that pattern.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Sabrina thought that Ottawa should get some kind of recognition
per action to MIT. That's when Sabrina got the idea
for the Bold Prize.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
MIT has this thing called the Disobedience Prize. It is
a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars cash award, no
strings attached, given to social change leaders who speak truth
and power and practice moral leadership and ethics.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
And I thought, MIT has.
Speaker 7 (28:59):
No right to say what ethical leadership looks like if
they are letting this man stay in this role, if
they're letting this happen to young black women in their community.
So I was like, Hey, I have a voice, and
I have power, and I can do something and I
can say something. I wanted this young woman to know
(29:21):
that I see her. So and then I was like.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
You know what, why don't I give you an award?
Speaker 7 (29:28):
So I said, would it be okay if I crowdfunded
a leadership prize for you?
Speaker 5 (29:32):
And she was like, that would be a really sweet,
thank you so much.
Speaker 7 (29:35):
I wrote a letter that you see on gooldprice dot
com where I said that you know, I do not
know her, but I admire her courage, and that I
wasn't okay watching a young black woman speak up and
leave with courage and not only not be seen, but
(29:57):
also be harmed for it. I think if we need
to there's the world as it is and the world
as it should be, and if we want to build
the world as it should be, then we need to
reframe what leadership looks like so that when these events happen,
people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors.
They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders.
(30:21):
So I wanted to use my voice and my power
and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from
blame to leadership, from the world as it is to
the world that it should be, and that it is
not just her right to speak out protect women in
her community, but also it's within all of our abilities
(30:44):
to speak out and do the same thing. The other
piece that I was that did not sit well with
me was watching really powerful people that we both know
not recognize their own power and agency. So I want,
I believe and the power of invitation. And then I
don't believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice
or ignorance, but the fact that an opportunity for them
(31:06):
to participate in something different and transformative wasn't there, so
I decided to create it. We are going to refashion
the Disobedience Prize and we're going to make it the
Bold Prize. And I called it the Bold Prize for
three specific reasons. One, when Ethan Zuckerman first announced it
and his thing. That's when I was like, someone should
(31:27):
give him an award. The second thing. In Ottawa's piece,
she uses the phrase I stand by my advisor is
Ethan Zuckerman's her advisor. She wrote, I stand by my
advisor and his bold decision to step down, and I
was like, oh, that word bold. And then three, when
I was in a situation where I was speaking out
against sexual misconduct and racial injustice, one of the people
(31:49):
who were complicted and covering it up had the audacity
to call me bold, And I thought to myself, Yeah,
you know, I am bold, and maybe this wouldn't be
so hard if more people were.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
MIT's media lab is called the future Factory. But to
we even want a future designed by powerful people that
would look the other way when it comes to abuse.
What kind of future would that leave us?
Speaker 7 (32:15):
With? The choices that m I T made to enable
Epstein and be complicit and covering for sexual predator, those
were deliberate decisions and choices that were made outside of
a moral compass and so to somehow envelope that into
(32:42):
like they get to be leaders on what ethics look like,
and not only just what ethics looks like, but what
the future can be.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
It can be in a hold.
Speaker 7 (32:50):
I don't want a future imagined by people who participate in.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
Systems like so.
Speaker 7 (32:57):
I want to build a future with leaders life Ottawa,
who kid who not only made choices to do the
heart see something hard, to do it anyway, but are
willing to absorb the blowpack that comes with it because
it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over forty thousand dollars for Ottawa
as the inaugural recipient of the Bold Prize. The average
donation was seventy five dollars.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I was just so in awe. I was like, oh
my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
But not just because I mean this was a stranger
and not just any shoes, was a black woman as well,
and had just somehow like seen my pain from far
away or seen the struggle and was like I need
to do something for this woman.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And so that was the true prize for me.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
It was like how many people came together to support
my voice when I had felt for a long time
that I was on the outside of things.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I feel, just for journalistic integrity purposes, I should say
I'm one of the fund I'm one of the donators
of that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeh. And you know, I agree.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
I thought the idea that Sabrina, who is this has
been a really powerful force in my own life is
personally would reach.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Out to you like that.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I thought that was so beautiful and it really goes
back to what you were saying at the beginning of
our interview about sort of being lifted up by this
community of black women and lifting them.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
Up as well.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Like it's just it is really special, and I think
it was important for me, even though you know, you
and I had never met, it was important for me
to let you know that people out there had your back,
We were rooting for you, like watching what you were doing,
like what your your bravery and your courage reverberates. You know,
(34:43):
you never know who is you never know who is
going to be seeing what you did, and that's going
to be the reason why they speak up.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
I think that's also been another like big thing that
I've gained is you just never know who's life if
you're going to touch, or who's who like way your
words will reach. And there's been so many like random
people who were, you know, saying what you're saying, like oh,
you gave me the courage to do this, or you
(35:12):
gave me the courage to write this and to say
this and whatever. And I've been like, okay, like this
can be a movement, like the Bold Prize can be
a movement, Like it can be something that people aspired
to get. I didn't have a vendetta against Joey like
personally either, so it wasn't like I won him fired
or to resign and would only be happy once that happened,
(35:35):
because clearly this issue was deeply structural within MIT as well.
So I felt vindicated after like maybe you know, time
after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with
the letters of support and you know, by people encouraging
me to keep speaking my mind. But we still have
so much work to do, Like as an institution here.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
What's your advice for other women about speaking truth to
power even when it's tough.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
The first is, I really think it is a lonely
process and it isn't easy I you know, I learned
that firsthand, and I think at this light sound like
kind of mythical, But I think drawing power from others
before you do what you need to do is so
important because you're going to need so much energy to
(36:24):
keep going and to like not backtracking what you said
because people don't agree with you, and so like, if
that's reading, or if that's talking to actual people, or
if that's listening to Lizzo, like literally drawing power from
other women in history and time, because there's so many
(36:44):
who have done the thing that you want to do
is so important, gives you stamina.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Institutions like MIT are powerful, but so are women. So
is community. Women being in community with each other and
lifting each other up and inspiring each other to speak
our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems,
and women can envision bolder futures and brighter realities when
we come together. Got a story about an interesting thing
(37:12):
in tech, or just want to say hi, You can
reach us at Hello at tangody dot com. You can
also find transcripts for today's episode at tengodi dot com.
There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
me bridget Todd it's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed
creative Jonathan Stricklet is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is
our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer.
I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
(37:34):
us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against minors,
and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls
on the Internet as a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls
(00:20):
on the Internet.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
One of the biggest questions making the rounds is what
exactly is Donald Trump's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. We recently
broke down why those questions still linger and what they
might mean in a recent episode of the show, which
will put in the show notes. But Trump is not
the only powerful figure with ties to Epstein. In fact,
one of the very first episodes we ever did on
(00:44):
There Are No Girls on the Internet was a conversation
with Kenyan technologist Autowa Umboya. Back then, Audiba was a
grad student at MIT's influential Media Lab and became one
of the first people to publicly call out her own
university's connections to Epstein, ultimately calling for the resignation of
the lab's director over it. It was one of the
(01:04):
stories that initially inspired me to start this podcast in
the first place. You know, here was this brave student
speaking up about what she knew to be wrong in
her own tech community, and instead of support, she faced
a tax for it. And I guess that's tale as
old as time, the cost of being right. So today
we're revisiting that important conversation you've probably heard about American
(01:30):
financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled guilty and was convicted in
two thousand and eight of procuring an underage girl for sex.
In July of last year, he was arrested on charges
of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking.
He was found dead in prison in August. In addition
to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton,
Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, and incredibly accused rapist President
(01:53):
Donald Trump, Epstein also had deep connections to the tech
world despite being a convicted sex offender. On September seventh,
Ronan Faroh published an expos in The New Yorker that
found that the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or MIT, had
a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein that it had previously acknowledged,
even as officials knew he was a convicted sex offender,
(02:14):
and that the university went to great lengths to cover
it up. Now, here's just some of what Pharaoh found.
Even though Epstein was disqualified a MIT's official donor database,
the Media Lab continued to accept money from him, consulted
him about the use of funds, and, by marking his
contributions as anonymous, avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly
and within the university. Epstein appeared to act as a
(02:36):
go between for wealthy donors like Bill Gates to pump
money into MIT. According to Pharaoh, MIT's efforts to conceal
Epstein's connections to the university went so far that staff
referred to Epstein as Voldemort or he who must not
be named. Whistleblower Sidney Swinson, a former MIT development associate,
told Pharaoh that the lab's leadership made it explicit even
in her earliest days with them, that Epstein's donations had
(02:58):
to be kept secret. Staffers knew about MIT's relationship with Epstein.
Prominent faculty adviser Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's
piece was published. Joy Eto, the director of the MIT
Media Lab, resigned in.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
The latest fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein. MIT is opening
an investigation into its ties to the financier and convicted
sex offender. The announcement came just one day after The
New Yorker revealed that MIT's Media Lab was attempting to
conceal donations from Epstein.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Now there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein, but
this story isn't really about him. It's about courage, community,
and power. We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes,
and most people credit Ronan Faroh with bringing their full
scope to light. But even before Ronan Pharaoh's piece was published,
women in the MIT community spoke up, and we should
(03:52):
honor their voices too.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
To the Future, MIT's Media Lab a place that follows
crazy ideas, where they may le.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
We get to think about the future. What does the
world look like ten years, twenty years, thirty is what should.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
It look like? The MIT Media Lab is an important place.
CBS even dubbed it the future Factory, and it's where technologists.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Ottawa Mboya knew she had to be.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Yeah, I came here because it is sort of a
place for misfits.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
The Media Lab.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
It is intodisciplinary and has sort of the intersection of
tech and art and design and that was what I
was looking for. When I graduated from undergrad I worked
for a couple of years back in Airobi, where I'm from,
and became a VR developer.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
On the side on top of my job and needed.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
To I was sort of like looking for somewhere to
find myself and had heard about the Media Lab and
how sort of civic minded. One of the groups was
called Civic Media and our motto is a tech for
social change, and I was like, well, that sounds like
exactly what I want to do.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, so I applied and then it worked out.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Ottawa was raised and shaped by a community of strong,
resilient women, and that upbringing has been a big part
of how she shows up to the world today.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I mean my work is always about women, and it's
always about It's always about.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Women in Africa. Sometimes it's a bit more general than that.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
But I have worked in Nairobi my whole life. I've
studied away from Nairobi, but always try to bring back
my research and the questions that I'm asking to home
and the woman that I've worked with in informal sentiments
in Kenya. But you know, that's just my research. But
(05:43):
how I approach studying and how I approach being in
big institutions is definitely sort of inspired by how I
was raised.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
By my mom and my grandma, and I have like.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
A thousand aunts. Grew up in something of a matriarchy,
I would say so. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You were raised in like a community of strong, badass women.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Yeah, and like really scary ones too, so like you
look at them with a lot of love and admiration
but also a lot of fear.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Audible works with virtual reality, so that means she has
to be able to imagine worlds that haven't even been
seen yet. It's a spirit that drives her both personally
and professionally. Do you think that that sort of work
has helped you kind of imagine a future where things
can be better than they are?
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Yeah, I think so, I would say so. I think
I've always sort of had that in me before I
started playing on VR and AI, and I think those
projects are sort of things that are already within me
as opposed to things that have made me think a
certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just
reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men. Actually,
(06:49):
my grand both my grandpas are fantastic men and have
been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya differently.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah, I would say it's totally in me.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
And you know, when I wrote that, it wasn't even
so much that I was so when I was sort
of talking against my director. It wasn't even so much
that I was imagining a different future. It was more
like this current present is something is off, something is
not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up
is if something's not right, you fix it or you
(07:24):
say something about it, but you don't sit around and
do nothing.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
As a grad student in the Media Lab, Ottawa published
a piece in the Tech MIT Student publication about the
university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it, she called for
the resignation of Joy Eto, the head of the MIT
Media Lab. Her piece ran weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would
go on to echo her points in his New Yorker
expose on September seventh. The only difference is Ottawa called
(07:48):
for Eto to resign, and after Pharaoh's piece was published,
he actually did did you ever feel like people have
an easier time taking this situation seriously when it's reported
by a white man, I mean.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
And I appreciate Ronan Pharaoh's work a lot, and we
actually got to meet him and we kind of talked
about this. But you know, Senior Swenson, she was the
real hero of the story. I mean, she was the
actual whistle blower. And sometimes people treat me like I
was a whistle blower when I didn't whistle blow anything.
I just have the same information that everybody else had
and sort of said my opinion about it. And for sure,
(08:25):
I mean, even on the comments on my article, like
there were so many comments I had to do with
my race and ethnicity and where I'm from, as opposed
to you know, not agreeing with me and my ideas.
It was very much like, well, you're not from America,
you don't know what we're talking about. And then Ronan
Pharaoh writes this article, and of course everyone just jumped ship.
(08:46):
And you know, I totally understood my director resigning after that.
I was just more shocked of how many people said, oh,
we were wrong after the article, because to me, it's
kind of like we are.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
He had that.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Information beforehand, and people had made up those decisions, their
decisions to support him at that point, and it's only
when a powerful and not just white man, they're a
powerful white man writes about it that it's enough to
sort of swaye people's opinions or feelings, or at least
their vocal ones.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So I heard an NPR interview where you described your
meeting with Edo, where he basically said, I agree with
all the things that you're saying, all the things that
you say.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I did.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
I totally did.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose
my job over it.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Yeah, And there were a lot of people who felt
that way, and a lot of people still feel that
way because he kind of was the heart of the
Media Lab and a lot of people dependent on him
for their projects, for funding, for you know, other people
were coming into the Media Lab for the first time
under his leadership. So it makes sense that some people
(09:52):
feel that way. I think the Ronan Pharaoh thing was
interesting because we had that conversation one afternoon, and then
it was that same afternoon that Ronan Farrah's article dropped,
So he between our meeting and him resigning was maybe
four to five hours, like really not much. Yeah, so
(10:13):
you know, it was overall like really shocking, but to
me that's again a power thing. It's totally different situation
if one first year massive student who you know has
no power whatsoever, says you should resign, and it's a
totally different thing. If Ronan Pharaoh comes after you and
he has a lot of mistake. It's not just his
(10:35):
job at the media leve. He has a lot of
venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that I
think must have been in his head to protect. But yeah,
I mean, I don't know what it was that made
him cave in at that moment.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's easy to think about marginalized people who speak up
in these situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers
being pretty scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength
from the courage of other women and girls on the continent.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
The fear I was feeling was actually from my mom
because she didn't want me to write the article and
I don't like disagreeing with my mom that we just
did on this particular issue. And she was coming from
a perspective of fear or trying to take care of
her baby that she was sent to America to study,
like you know that she was scared that something might
(11:21):
happen to my degree, or that I might lose my
visa or something and not be able to finish.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
But I don't know. I didn't have that fear so much.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And I had just happened to be reading a really
amazing book called Beneath the tamer And Tree, which is
by Isshus to say of CNN about the Baccoharan bring
Back our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of
courage there was so wild that it just so happened
(11:50):
that this is all happening at the same time, and
I'm seeing myself as such a small player and seeing
the thing that I want to do is not that
big compared to some of the things that these girls
went through and some of the things that they fought
for against literal terrorists.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And I was like, Okay, if they have this.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Kind of courage to stand with a gun to their
face and not change their religion because it's what they
believe in, then if I believe in this thing, you know,
the least I can do is say it with my chest,
you know. So that was how I was feeling. So
I was actually feeling like kind of empowered and inspired
(12:29):
while I was writing it. I sometimes describe myself as
a radical feminist, but there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Radical about it.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
It's just that the word feminists sometimes seems radical to people.
But I just am a product of so many amazing
women that it's not shocking that I search for even
more inspiration from other women on the continent or on
the world.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
After her letter calling for Eto to resign was published,
things got rough for Ottawa. So what was the climate
like for you at MIT? Do you publish your piece.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Whom it sucked?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
I mean, the very next day or the day after
I published this article, like a website comes out saying
resupport to retail and it's signed by like, you know,
pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and
it's signed by all, you know, my colleagues and all
these people, and it's a direct response to my one article.
(13:27):
And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting,
you know, some not nice comments, but I was able
to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it
really highlighted to me how fearful people can get when
you speak the truth or when you say your own truth.
Because for me, a whole website springing up was like
it's signed with all these hundreds of names just because
(13:51):
one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and
that student has no power. Like I don't know why
there was so much fear, so much anger, so much
defense because nobody else. There was lots of articles about it.
There was lots of articles that were very non partisan
and saying what happened, but nobody asked for him to
(14:13):
be resigned, to resign except me. And it's almost as
if like that one statement or that one article, like
it was like away through the media lab and everyone
was like pushing back, as if what I said might
sort of break the whole media lab or make it
fall apart, and some people till today, I think it's
my fault, like for sure, and you know, there's nothing
(14:36):
I can do about that, and I'm not going.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
To sort of try to pander to those people. But
I don't know. It just showed me. It really taught
me the power of words.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
We'll be right back after this quick break, and we're
back by establishing financial relationships with respected organizations like mit
Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, protection
and most importantly, reputational redemption. Once you've got the protection
(15:09):
of that kind of power, it can be hard to
penetrate power. Powerful friends, powerful names, powerful money. All of
it makes it harder for people who exist outside of
that power to speak out about bad behavior. Why do
you think the media lab overlooked Epstein's crimes? Do you
think it was just the money and they didn't care
where it came from, or do you think it was
(15:30):
something else.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I know that some people knew and some people didn't know,
so I can really only speak for the person that
I know for sure knew, which is Joey, and the
rest I don't know. And you know, he wielded a
lot of power in this lab. We do know for
a fact that there were people who who including my
advisor Ethan Zuckermann, who spoke out and said that this
(15:54):
was not a good idea and said that we shouldn't
take money from Epstein, and they were ignored. The hardcore
truth is that money is power, and there is a
massive incentive to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're
going to get power by ignoring them. I think the
(16:16):
other thing to remember with the Epstein situation is that
he wasn't giving the media that much money anyway. I
think a lot of the money that was an MIT
report just came out on the funding issue, and we
found out that Joey was actually trying to secure much
bigger part of funding for his own venture capital funds,
(16:36):
so huge incentive to ignore what was sort of on
the surface. And then the other thing is just I
don't think men get it all the time, like I
don't think I sometimes I really think that some people
thought that it's just not that big a deal because
they have no understanding on what that relationship even in
(17:00):
and off itself, but without money means for the victims
of Epstein's we have no idea how this consolidation of
power represses the victims and silences them.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
It only sounds like Epstein was trying to use his
money to kind of create this cover so that if
anybody ever tried to call him out on his actions,
he could just be like, oh, well, look at all
these powerful influential men I surround myself with.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
In some ways was really smart because he didn't actually
have that much money. He wasn't a Bill Gates, but
had enough to sort of know the right people and
actually build a social circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen,
and it was so strong that everybody wanted to be
(17:47):
a part of it, and it was Epstein's name that
you had to know to get sort of in that circle.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Ottawa still thinks highly of MIT, but the backlash she
faced for speaking out against joy Eto showed her that
things are not always as shiny as they look from
the outside.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
And I think the media of you know, it's hard
because I love this place, like I've had a fantastic
two years. I've learned so much, I've grown so much,
and I wouldn't change it for anything, But I think
this experience has just been such an example of that.
Because it's so shiny on the outside, like it's so glamorous,
(18:23):
everyone wants to be here. But that doesn't that doesn't
mean that we don't have issues, institutional issues of power
and race and class and all these other things that
might make the place sound not so amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Do you think that there should be more scrutiny on
other powerful men who had like financial entanglements with Epstein.
I feel like a lot of them have sort of
been able to skirt public scrutiny and like public question
asking about what exactly their dealings with this person were.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
You know from the out I mean, because I can't
speak for much more than MIT, but I know, you know,
even Harvard had relations with took a lot of money
from Epstein, but they just declined to even talk about it,
and so it just they sort of took the mom
path and everyone forgot about it, whereas at amit it
was so widely talked about. And Epstein's network is so
(19:20):
extensive that going through every single man who interacted with him,
or a woman for that matter, actually who interacted with
him and took money from him, and what they knew
and how they knew it is extremely difficult. So I
don't know how to do that. But there should be
a way larger conversation around these networks of power, whether
(19:45):
we isolate individuals within them or not. And I think
that also has a lot to do with who's willing
to speak, who's willing to come forward with information, because
the last way, you know, when we don't know anything,
all we can do is speculate, and they have power,
and that doesn't really work. So yeah, I don't know.
I feel like everyone should be all accountable, for sure,
but it's I don't even know where you start with Epstein.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
You know, I almost wonder if this is part of
the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his money in so
many powerful places and hands and institutions that untangling it
almost seems kind of impossible.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yeah, And I'm a firm belief of nothing as impossible.
But you know, there's such a close link. And I'm
not saying that anyone who took his money did anything
more than that, but there is, you know, especially with
the people who are closer with him, there is a
link with those people and victims, you know. And I
think right now what needs to happen is that the victims'
(20:40):
narratives need to be centered, you know, and the people
who have been hurt by Epstein need to have space
to say, you know, this is how it was hurt,
this is a feeling, this is what I need to
recover and sort of if they feel up for it,
these are the people who hurt me.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Beyond Epstein, it's hard to admit that people and institute
that mean a lot to us are actually fostering abusive behavior.
Joey was a beloved figure at MIT, and that made
it that much harder for the community to reckon with
the fact that he enabled, benefited from, and covered up
for an abuser.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and
inspiration and resource to the media, lab, students, and faculty
that people didn't want to believe that, you know, he
had done this thing that they didn't agree with, And
it was much easier if we just said, okay, Asha,
(21:34):
let's sweep it under the rug and move on and
pretend like this never happened. And so I understand that
to some degree. But you know, the world is like
constantly changing, and I think if you're sort of always
that person on the bottom of the ladder in certain societies,
like it's always it always comes from the bottom up,
like it's always that change and institution is never going
(21:56):
to happen by the people who for who the institution
is working, and the media was working for me, it
wasn't you know, I was having a great time, but
I didn't have the same feelings about the director that
most of my naysay has had. You know, I wasn't
actually giving up I don't know, funding for a specific
(22:17):
project by calling him out, So in other ways it
was easier for me than I you know, I get
why it was easier for me than other people. But
for a place that calls itself the future factory, for
a place that prides itself in imagining and creating the
future literally, like, the standard has got to be higher,
(22:38):
and it's got to be higher, not from a tech perspective,
but from a human perspective too.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
And so this is where it starts to look like
the Academy Awards. So first I want to invite up
the winners of the two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
Disobedience Award, the second largest cast prize at MIT, I
would say, after the Levelson Award for Innovation. So Tyranna
Burg and Sherry Marts and Beth M mclough and purs
come up with this award, we are recognizing their leadership
(23:08):
and dedication in amplifying the voices of survivors of sexual
violence and harassment, fom manning positive change towards gender equality,
and demonstrating defiance in the face of oppression and apathy.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
In twenty seventeen, MIT started the Disobedience Award, a yearly
award given to people in tech who speak truth to power.
The award came with a two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars No Strings Attached prize. In twenty eighteen, it was
awarded to me Too creator Toronto Burke, Beth Ann McLaughlin
and Shara mart as representatives of me Too and the
METO and STEM movement that highlighted people speaking up against
(23:42):
sexual harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass
orb and in a particularly disgusting piece of irony because
of his financial contributions to MIT, convicted sex offender and
serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award
that same year.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Two.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I know you're in fere now, but this is where
the story gets a little bit brighter. My friend Sabrina
hersy Lisa, is the kind of person I hope that
you all have in your lives. Mentor doesn't really cover
just how impactful she's been in my own life. She's
a human rights technologist and the founder of b Bold Media,
and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting other women or speaking
truth to power, even when she gets shipped for it.
(24:21):
Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, but she did read
her story.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
A friend of mine sent me a link to Ottawa's
off ed in the MIT student newspaper, and when I
read it, I thought it was so At first, I
thought this was so beautifully written, and it was written
from a place of love and in leadership, and from
clearly this was a voice of someone who cares deeply
(24:47):
not just for women and children, but also for a community.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Then I saw the arc of how her off.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
Ed was being received in MIT community and in the
broader technology community, and that is when things started to
not sit well with me in our in bridget our
share of women in technology community. I saw Ottawa's ap
ed being received as like, this is a great call
for a student, but it also I saw a lot
(25:16):
of echoing of helplessness from very powerful women in technology,
and a lot of ringing of hands and a lot
of oh what do we do now?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Or I feel hopeless?
Speaker 7 (25:28):
And when I read Ottawa's op ed, I felt the
opposite of hopeless.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
I felt hope.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
I felt Oh, if this is what someone could say
with so much to lose and so much on the line,
then anything as possible. And then I saw it absorbed
in the broader public conversation around Epstein and MIT, and
I saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed at her
(25:56):
I saw Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem
instead of a blessing.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
And I was not okay watching that.
Speaker 7 (26:06):
I saw you know, Reddit forums where people were like,
if she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa.
I saw a lot of hate being seen on Twitter.
I saw so like the further the rings of influence
went out, the more I saw this woman's brave call
of public leadership being received, how most black women who
(26:28):
are moral, who practice moral courage in public spaces being received.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
And I was not okay with that.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
And you know me, and you know I walked through
fires in the past where that was the arc that
played out, and I knew I could not in good
conscious say that, do nothing and be okay with that,
or say nothing and do it and be okay with that.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
More, there are no girls on the internet after this
quick break, and we're back, even though they had never met.
Sabrina was inspired by Ottawa's actions at MIT. She remembered
all the times in her own career that she's got
against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it. Speaking
(27:21):
out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't be watched
the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her
being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right,
even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact
same thing. And while his reporting was a big part
of why do stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was
risking his personal safety by speaking up.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
It was Ottawa.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
The thing about this that really struck me was not
just the vulnerability of her visibility, like when she did
speak that step up and speak out and say something,
she was met with not even no no support, but
with a lot of hatred and anger, but the visibility
of her leadership.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Win a white guy says the.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
Same thing that she said, and he's not even a
part of the MIT community. His safety grown and girls,
his safety was never going in question. And I wasn't
okay with watching yet another pattern of someone outside of
a community and institution with prestige being validated as a
(28:25):
legitimate voice. I didn't want to be a I didn't
want my silence to be complicit in continuing that pattern.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Sabrina thought that Ottawa should get some kind of recognition
per action to MIT. That's when Sabrina got the idea
for the Bold Prize.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
MIT has this thing called the Disobedience Prize. It is
a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars cash award, no
strings attached, given to social change leaders who speak truth
and power and practice moral leadership and ethics.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
And I thought, MIT has.
Speaker 7 (28:59):
No right to say what ethical leadership looks like if
they are letting this man stay in this role, if
they're letting this happen to young black women in their community.
So I was like, Hey, I have a voice, and
I have power, and I can do something and I
can say something. I wanted this young woman to know
(29:21):
that I see her. So and then I was like.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
You know what, why don't I give you an award?
Speaker 7 (29:28):
So I said, would it be okay if I crowdfunded
a leadership prize for you?
Speaker 5 (29:32):
And she was like, that would be a really sweet,
thank you so much.
Speaker 7 (29:35):
I wrote a letter that you see on gooldprice dot
com where I said that you know, I do not
know her, but I admire her courage, and that I
wasn't okay watching a young black woman speak up and
leave with courage and not only not be seen, but
(29:57):
also be harmed for it. I think if we need
to there's the world as it is and the world
as it should be, and if we want to build
the world as it should be, then we need to
reframe what leadership looks like so that when these events happen,
people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors.
They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders.
(30:21):
So I wanted to use my voice and my power
and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from
blame to leadership, from the world as it is to
the world that it should be, and that it is
not just her right to speak out protect women in
her community, but also it's within all of our abilities
(30:44):
to speak out and do the same thing. The other
piece that I was that did not sit well with
me was watching really powerful people that we both know
not recognize their own power and agency. So I want,
I believe and the power of invitation. And then I
don't believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice
or ignorance, but the fact that an opportunity for them
(31:06):
to participate in something different and transformative wasn't there, so
I decided to create it. We are going to refashion
the Disobedience Prize and we're going to make it the
Bold Prize. And I called it the Bold Prize for
three specific reasons. One, when Ethan Zuckerman first announced it
and his thing. That's when I was like, someone should
(31:27):
give him an award. The second thing. In Ottawa's piece,
she uses the phrase I stand by my advisor is
Ethan Zuckerman's her advisor. She wrote, I stand by my
advisor and his bold decision to step down, and I
was like, oh, that word bold. And then three, when
I was in a situation where I was speaking out
against sexual misconduct and racial injustice, one of the people
(31:49):
who were complicted and covering it up had the audacity
to call me bold, And I thought to myself, Yeah,
you know, I am bold, and maybe this wouldn't be
so hard if more people were.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
MIT's media lab is called the future Factory. But to
we even want a future designed by powerful people that
would look the other way when it comes to abuse.
What kind of future would that leave us?
Speaker 7 (32:15):
With? The choices that m I T made to enable
Epstein and be complicit and covering for sexual predator, those
were deliberate decisions and choices that were made outside of
a moral compass and so to somehow envelope that into
(32:42):
like they get to be leaders on what ethics look like,
and not only just what ethics looks like, but what
the future can be.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
It can be in a hold.
Speaker 7 (32:50):
I don't want a future imagined by people who participate in.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
Systems like so.
Speaker 7 (32:57):
I want to build a future with leaders life Ottawa,
who kid who not only made choices to do the
heart see something hard, to do it anyway, but are
willing to absorb the blowpack that comes with it because
it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over forty thousand dollars for Ottawa
as the inaugural recipient of the Bold Prize. The average
donation was seventy five dollars.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I was just so in awe. I was like, oh
my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
But not just because I mean this was a stranger
and not just any shoes, was a black woman as well,
and had just somehow like seen my pain from far
away or seen the struggle and was like I need
to do something for this woman.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And so that was the true prize for me.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
It was like how many people came together to support
my voice when I had felt for a long time
that I was on the outside of things.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I feel, just for journalistic integrity purposes, I should say
I'm one of the fund I'm one of the donators
of that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeh. And you know, I agree.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
I thought the idea that Sabrina, who is this has
been a really powerful force in my own life is
personally would reach.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Out to you like that.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I thought that was so beautiful and it really goes
back to what you were saying at the beginning of
our interview about sort of being lifted up by this
community of black women and lifting them.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
Up as well.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Like it's just it is really special, and I think
it was important for me, even though you know, you
and I had never met, it was important for me
to let you know that people out there had your back,
We were rooting for you, like watching what you were doing,
like what your your bravery and your courage reverberates. You know,
(34:43):
you never know who is you never know who is
going to be seeing what you did, and that's going
to be the reason why they speak up.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
I think that's also been another like big thing that
I've gained is you just never know who's life if
you're going to touch, or who's who like way your
words will reach. And there's been so many like random
people who were, you know, saying what you're saying, like oh,
you gave me the courage to do this, or you
(35:12):
gave me the courage to write this and to say
this and whatever. And I've been like, okay, like this
can be a movement, like the Bold Prize can be
a movement, Like it can be something that people aspired
to get. I didn't have a vendetta against Joey like
personally either, so it wasn't like I won him fired
or to resign and would only be happy once that happened,
(35:35):
because clearly this issue was deeply structural within MIT as well.
So I felt vindicated after like maybe you know, time
after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with
the letters of support and you know, by people encouraging
me to keep speaking my mind. But we still have
so much work to do, Like as an institution here.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
What's your advice for other women about speaking truth to
power even when it's tough.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
The first is, I really think it is a lonely
process and it isn't easy I you know, I learned
that firsthand, and I think at this light sound like
kind of mythical, But I think drawing power from others
before you do what you need to do is so
important because you're going to need so much energy to
(36:24):
keep going and to like not backtracking what you said
because people don't agree with you, and so like, if
that's reading, or if that's talking to actual people, or
if that's listening to Lizzo, like literally drawing power from
other women in history and time, because there's so many
(36:44):
who have done the thing that you want to do
is so important, gives you stamina.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Institutions like MIT are powerful, but so are women. So
is community. Women being in community with each other and
lifting each other up and inspiring each other to speak
our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems,
and women can envision bolder futures and brighter realities when
we come together. Got a story about an interesting thing
(37:12):
in tech, or just want to say hi, You can
reach us at Hello at tangody dot com. You can
also find transcripts for today's episode at tengodi dot com.
There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
me bridget Todd it's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed
creative Jonathan Stricklet is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is
our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer.
I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
(37:34):
us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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