July 7, 2020 • 36 mins
You might know that connections to convicted sex criminal Jeffrey Epstein led to the resignation of the director of the MIT Media Lab, Joi Ito, after a Ronan Farrow exposé. But fewer people know that Arwa Mboya, a Kenyan virtual reality programmer and MIT student, bravely called for Ito to step down before Farrow’s piece. Mboya talks about how the bravery and community of women and girls gave her the courage to take a stand.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against miners,
and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls
on the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio
and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There
(00:20):
Are No Girls on the Internet. You've probably heard about
American financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled guilty and was convicted
in two thousand and eight procuring an underage girl for sex.
In July of last year, he was arrested on charges
of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking.
He was found dead in prison in August. In addition
(00:41):
to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton,
Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, and incredibly accused rapist President
Donald Trump, Epstein also had deep connections to the tech
world despite being a convicted sex offender. On September seven,
Ronan Farrow published an expose in The New Yorker that
found that the ma Stituts Institute of Technology or m
(01:01):
i T, had a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein than
it had previously acknowledged, even as officials knew he was
a convicted sex offender, and that the university went to
great lengths to cover it up. Now here's just some
of what Pharaoh found. Even though Epstein was disqualified and
m I t S official donor database, the Media Lab
continued to accept money from him, consulted him about the
(01:22):
use of funds, and by marking his contributions as anonymous,
avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly and within the university.
Epstein appeared to act as a go between for wealthy
donors like Bill Gates to pump money into m I T.
According to Pharaoh, m I t s efforts to conceal
Epstein's connections to the university went so far that staff
referred to Epstein as Voldemort or he who must not
(01:43):
be named. Whistle Blower Sidney Swinson, a former m I
T Development associate, told Pharaoh that the Lab's leadership made
it explicit even in her earliest days with them, that
Epstein's donations had to be kept secret. Staffords knew about
m I t s relationship with Epstein. Prominent faculty advisor
Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's piece was published.
(02:04):
Joy Eto, the director of the m I T Media
Lab resigned in the latest fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein.
M I T is opening an investigation into its ties
to the financier and convicted sex offender. The announcement came
just one day after The New Yorker revealed that m
I T S Media Lab was attempting to conceal donations
from Epstein. Now, there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein,
(02:29):
but this story isn't really about him. It's about courage,
community and power. We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes,
and most people credit Roman Pharaoh with bringing their full
scope to light. But even before Rodan Pharaoh's piece was published,
women in the m I T community spoke up and
we should honor their voices too. To the Future, m
(02:50):
I T S Media Lab a place that follows crazy
ideas wherever they may leave. We get to think about
the future. What does the world look like ten years,
twenty years, thirty years, which should it look like? The
m I T Media Lab is an important place. CBS
even dubbed at the future Factory, and it's more technologists.
Ottawatamboya knew she had to be Yeah, I came here
(03:14):
because it is sort of a place for misfits, the
Media Lab. It is into disciptionary and has sort of
the intersection of tech and art and design, and that
was what I was looking for when I graduated from
undergrad UM. I worked for a couple of years back
and I will be where I'm from and became a
(03:36):
VR developer on the side on top of my job
and needed I was sort of like looking for somewhere
to find myself UM and I'd heard about the Media
Lab and how sort of uh civic minded. One of
the groups was called Civic Media and our motto is
tech for Social Change, and I was like, well, that
(03:57):
sounds like exactly what I want to do. Yes, I
applied and then it worked out. Ottawa was raised and
shaped by a community of strong, resilient women, and that
upbringing has been a big part of how she shows
up to the world today. Yeah, for sure. I mean,
my work is always about women, and it's always about
It's always about women in Africa. Sometimes it's a bit
(04:17):
more general than than that. But I have worked in
my robe in my whole life. I've studied away from
my robe, but always try to bring back my research
and the questions that I'm asking too home and the
women that I've worked with in informal sentiments in Kenya.
But you know, that's just my research. But how I
(04:39):
approached studying and how I approach being in big institutions
is definitely sort of inspired by how I was raised
by my mom and my grandma and I have like
a thousand aunts. Um grew up in something of the matriarchy,
I would say so, yeah, for sure. So you were
raised in a community of strong, badass women. Yeah, and
(04:59):
like the scary ones too, so like we look at
them with a lot of love and admiration but also
a lot of fear. Audible works with virtual reality, so
that means she has to be able to imagine worlds
that haven't even been seeing yet. It's a spirit that
drives her both personally and professionally. Do you think that
that sort of work has helped you kind of imagine
(05:20):
a future where things can be better than they are? Yeah,
I think so, I would say so. I think I've
always sort of had that in me before I started
playing on b R and and and and I think
those projects are sort of things that are already within me.
As opposed to things that have made me think a
certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just
(05:41):
reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men.
Actually my grand both my grandpa's are fantastic men and
have been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya
differently that, yeah, I would say, it's totally in me.
And you know, when I row that, it wasn't even
so much that I was so when I was sort
(06:03):
of talking against my director, it wasn't even so much
that I was imagining a different future. It was more
like this current present isn't Something is off, something is
not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up
is if somebody's not right, you fix it or you
say something about it, but you don't sit around and
do nothing. As a grad student in the Media Lab,
(06:25):
Ottawa published a piece in the Tech m I T
Student publication about the university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it,
she called for the resignation of Joy Itto, the head
of the m I T Media Lab. Her piece brand
weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would go on to echo her
points in his New York or expose on September seven.
The only difference is Ottawa call for Itto to resign,
and after Pharaoh's piece was published, he actually did Did
(06:48):
you ever feel like people have an easier time taking
this situation seriously when it's reported by a white man?
I mean, yeah, for sure. And I appreciate Ronan Farwer's
work a lot, and we actually got to meet him
and we kind of talked about this. But you know,
Senior Spencer, and she was the real hero of the story.
I mean, she was the actual whistle blower. And sometimes
(07:09):
people treat me like I was a whistle blower when
I didn't whistle blow anything. I just have the same
information that everybody else had and sort of said my
opinion about it. And for sure, I mean, even on
the comments on my article, like there were so many
comments I had to do with my race and ethnicity
and where I'm from, as opposed to you know, not
(07:30):
agreeing with me and my ideas. It was very much like, well,
you're not from America, you don't know what we're talking about.
And then Ronan Farrell writes this article and of course
everyone just jump ship. And you know, I totally understood
my director resigning after that I was just more shocked
of how many people said, oh, we were wrong after
(07:51):
the article, because to me, it's kind of like we
already had that information beforehand, and people had made up
those decision in their decision to support him at that point.
And it's only when a powerful and not just white man,
a powerful white man writes about it that it's enough
to sort of sway people's opinions or feelings were at
(08:12):
least they're vocal ones. So I heard an NPR interview
where you described your meeting with Edo, where he basically said,
I agree with all the things that you're saying. All
the things that you say I did. I totally did.
You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose
my job over it. Yeah, And there were a lot
of people who felt that way, and a lot of
people will still feel that way because he kind of
(08:33):
was the heart of the Media Lab and a lot
of people depended on him for their projects, for funding,
for you know, other people were coming into the Media
Lab for the first time under his leadership, So it
makes sense that some people feel that way. I think
the Ronan Pharaoh thing was interesting because we had that
(08:54):
conversation one afternoon, and then it was that same afternoon
that Ronan Iris article dropped, So he between our meeting
and him resigning was maybe four or five hours, like
really know ledge, Yeah, um, so you know it was.
It was overall like really shocking. But to me, that's
again a power thing. It's a totally different situation if
(09:15):
one first year massive student who you know, has no
power whatsoever says you should resign, and it's a totally
different thing if Ronan Pharaoh comes after you, and he
had he has a lot of unstake. It's not just
his job at the media lab. He has a lot
of venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that
I think must have been in his head to protect.
(09:38):
But yeah, I mean, I don't know what it was
that made him cave in at that moment. It's easy
to think about marginalized people who speak up in these
situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers being pretty
scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength from the
courage of other women and girls on the continent. The
fear I was feeling was actually from my mom, because
(10:00):
she didn't want me to write the article, and I
don't like disagreeing with my mom, but we just did
on this particular issue, and she was coming from a
perspective of fear or trying to take care of her
baby that she sent to America to study, Like you know,
that she was scared that something that had happened to
my degree, or that I might lose my visa or
something and not be able to finish. But I don't know,
(10:23):
I didn't have that fear so much. And I had
just happened to be reading a really amazing book called
Beneath the Time or in Tree, which is that is
to say of CNN about the Baco Iran Bring Back
our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of courage
there was so wild that it just so happened that
(10:46):
this is all happening at the same time, and I'm
seeing myself as such a small player and seeing the
thing that I want to do is not that big
compared to some of the things that these girls went
through and some of the things that they fought for
again literal terrorists, And I was like, Okay, if they
have this kind of courage to stand in with a
(11:06):
gun to their face and not change their religion because
it's what they believe in. Then if I believe in
this thing, then you know, the least I can do
is say it with my chest, you know. Um, So
that was how I was feeling. So I was actually
feeling like kind of empowered inspired while I was writing it.
I sometimes describe myself as a radical feminist, but there's
(11:29):
nothing radical about it. It's just that the word feminists
sometimes seems radical to people. But I just am a
product of so many amazing women that it's not shocking
that I search for even more inspiration from other women
on the continent, around the world. After her letter calling
(11:49):
for Eto to resign was published, things got rough for Ottawa.
So what was the climate like for you at M
I t after you published your piece? Who um, it's so.
I mean the very next day or the day after
I published this article, like a website comes out saying
we support your retail and it's signed by like, you know,
(12:12):
pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and
it's signed by all you know, my colleagues and all
these people, and it's a direct response to my one article.
And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting,
you know, some not nice comments, but I was able
to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it
really highlated to me how fearful people can get when
(12:34):
you speak the truth, or when you say your own truth.
Because for me, a whole website springing up with like
it's signed with all these hundreds of names just because
one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and
that student has no power, Like I don't know why
there was so much fear or so much anger or
(12:56):
so much defense because nobody else else. There was lots
of articles about it. There was lots of articles that
were very nonpartisan and saying what happened, but nobody asked
for him to be resigned to resign except me. And
it's almost as if like that one statement of that
one article, like it was like a way through the
(13:18):
media lab and everyone was like pushing back, as if
what I said might sort of break the whole media
lab or make it fall apart um, and some people
until today, I think it's my fault, like for sure,
and you know, there's nothing I can do about that,
and I'm not going to sort of try to pand
it to those people. But I don't know. It just
showed me. It really taught me. The power of words.
(13:40):
We'll be right back after this quick break, and we're
back by establishing financial relationships with respective organizations like m I.
T Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover,
protection and most of importantly, reputational redemption. Once you've got
(14:03):
the protection of that kind of power, it can be
hard to penetrate power. Powerful friends, powerful names, powerful money.
All of it makes it harder for people who exist
outside of that power to speak out about bad behavior.
Why do you think the media lab overlooked Epstein's crimes?
Do you think it was just the money and they
didn't care where it came from, or do you think
(14:25):
it was something else. I know that some people knew
and some people didn't know, so I can really only
speak for the person that I know for sure knew,
which is Joey, and the rest I don't know. And
you know he he wielded a lot of power in
this lab. We do know for a fact that there
were people who who including my advisor Ethan's recommend who
(14:48):
spoke out and said that this was not a good
idea and said that we shouldn't take money from Epstein,
and they were ignored. I mean, the hard core truth
is that money is power, and there is a massive
incentive to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're going
(15:08):
to get power by ignoring them. I think the other
thing to remember with the Epstein situation is that he
wasn't giving the media that much money anyway. I think
a lot of the money that was and m I
T report just came out on the funding issue and
we found out that Joey was actually trying to secure
much bigger part of funding for his own venture capital
(15:30):
funds UM, So huge incentive to ignore what was sort
of on the surface UM. And then the other thing
is just I don't think men get it all the time,
Like I don't think I sometimes I really think that
some people thought that it's just not that big a
deal because they have no understanding on what that relationship
(15:55):
even in and of itself. But without money means for
the victims of Epstein's they have no idea how this
consolidation of power represses the victims in silence system. It
almost sounds like Epstein was trying to use his money
to kind of create this cover so that if anybody
ever tried to call him out on his actions, he
could just be like oh, well, look at all these
(16:15):
powerful influential men I surround myself with. In some ways
was really smart because he didn't actually have that much money.
It wasn't a Bill Gates, but had enough to sort
of know the right people and actually build a social
circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen, and
(16:37):
it was so strong that everybody wanted to be a
part of it. And it was Epstein's name that you
had to know to get sort of in that circle.
Ottawa still thinks highly at m I T, but the
backlash she faced for speaking out against Joto showed her
that things are not always as shiny as they look
from the outside. And I think the media of you know,
(17:01):
it's hard because I love this place, like I've had
a fantastic two years. I've learned so much, I've grown
so much, and I wouldn't change it for anything. But
I think this experience has just been such an example
of that because it's so shiny on the outside, like
it's so glamorous, everyone wants to be here. But that
(17:21):
doesn't that doesn't mean that we don't have issues institutional
issues with power and race and class and all these
other things. That might make the place, so I'm not
so amazing. Do you think that there should be more
scrutiny on other powerful men who had like financial entanglements
with Epstein. I feel like a lot of them have
sort of been able to skirt public scrutiny and like
(17:42):
public question asking about what what exactly their dealings with
this person were. Oh, yeah, for sure, Yeah, I think
you know from the out because I mean, because I
can't speak for much more than M I T. But
I know, you know, even Harvard had relations took a
lot of money from Epstein, but they just declined to
even talk about it, and so it just they sort
(18:04):
of took the mom path and everyone forgot about it,
whereas at M I T. It was so widely talked about.
And Epstein's network is so extensive that going through every
single man who interacted with him, or woman for that
for that matter, actually who interacted with him and took
(18:25):
money from him, and what they knew and how they
knew it is extremely difficult. So I don't know how
to do that, But there should be a way larger
conversation around these networks of power, whether we isolate individuals
within them or not, And I think that also has
a lot to do with who's willing to speak, who's
(18:47):
willing to come forward with information, because the less you know,
when we don't know anything, all we can do is speculate,
and they have power, and that doesn't really work. So yeah,
I don't know. I feel like everyone should be held accountable,
for sure, but it's I don't even know where you
start with Epstein. You know, I almost wonder if this
is part of the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his
(19:08):
money in so many powerful places and hands and institutions
that untangling it almost seems kind of impossible. Yeah, And
I'm a firm believe of nothing is impossible. But you know,
there's such a close link. And I'm not saying that
anyone who took his money did anything more than that,
but there is, you know, especially with the people who
are closer with him, there is a link with those
(19:29):
people and victims, you know, And I think right now
what needs to happen is that the victims narratives need
to be centered, you know, and the people who have
been hurt by Epstein need to have space to say,
you know, this is how I was hurt, This is
feeling this is what I need to recover and sort
of if they feel up for it, these are the
(19:50):
people who hurt me. Beyond Epstein, it's hard to admit
that people and institutions that mean a lot to us
are actually fostering abusive behavior. Joy was a beloved figure
at m I T. And that made it that much
harder for the community to reckon with the fact that
he enabled, benefited from, and covered up for an abuser.
Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and
(20:14):
inspiration and resource to the media lab students that and
and faculty that people didn't want to believe that, you know,
he had done this thing that they didn't agree with,
And it was much easier if we just said, okay,
let's sweep it under the rug and move on and
pretend like this never happened. And so I understand that
(20:34):
to some degree. But you know, the world is like
constantly changing, and I think if you're sort of always
that person on the bottom of the ladder in certain societies,
like it's always it always comes from the bottom up,
like it's always that change in institution is never going
to happen by the people who for who the institution
is working, and the media was working. For me, it wasn't.
(20:59):
And I was having a great time, but I didn't
have the same feelings about the director that most of
my naysay has had. You know, I wasn't actually giving
up I don't know, funding for a specific project by
calling him out. So in other ways, it was easier
for me than I you know, I get why it
(21:19):
was easier for me than other people. But for a
place that calls itself the future factory, for a place
that prides itself in imagining and creating the future literally
like or, the standard has got to be higher, and
it's got to be higher, not from a tech perspective,
but from a human perspective too. And so this is
where it starts to look like the Academy Awards. And
(21:42):
so first I want to invite up the winners of
the two fifty thousand dollar Disobedience Award, the second largest
cast prize and m I T I would say, after
the Lemilson Award for Innovation, um so Taranto Burke and
Sherry Marts and Deathan Mclaw could's come up with this award.
We are recognizing their leadership and dedication in amplifying the
(22:05):
voices of survivors of sexual violence and harassment, vommending positive
change towards gender equality, and demonstrating defiance in the face
of oppression and apathy. Thank you very much. In m
I T started the Disobedience Award, a yearly award given
to people in tech who speak truth to power. The
award came with a two hundred and fifty thou dollars
and no strings attached prize in it was awarded to
(22:28):
me to Creator Toronto Burke, Beth Ann McLaughlin and share
A mart as representatives of me Too and the me
to Instep movement that highlighted people speaking up against sexual
harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass orb and,
in a particularly disgusting piece of irony, because of his
financial contributions to m I T, convicted sex offender and
serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award
(22:52):
that same year two. I know you're infuriated now, but
this is where the story gets a little bit brighter.
My friend Sabrina her Seisa is the kind of person
I hope that you all have in your lives. Mentor
doesn't really cover just how impactful she's been in my
own life. She's a human rights technologist and the founder
of b Bold Media, and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting
(23:12):
other women or speaking truth to power, even when she
gets shipped for it. Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa,
but she did read her story. Friend of mine set
me a link to Ottawa's off ed in the uh
Might student newspaper, and when I read it, I thought
it was so At first, I thought this was so
beautifully written, and it was written from a place of
(23:34):
love and um and leadership, and from clearly this was
the voice of someone who cares deeply, not just for
women and children, but also for community. And then I
saw the art of how her off ed was being
received in m tea community and in the broader technology community,
(23:55):
and that is when things started to not sit well
with me. In our bridget our start women in technology community,
I saw Ottawa's op ed being received as like this
is a grave call for a student. But it also
I saw a lot of echoing of helplessness from very
powerful women in technology and a lot of ringing of
(24:18):
hands and a lot of oh what do we do now?
Or I feel hopeless? And when I read Ottawa's op ed,
I felt the opposite of hopeless. I felt hopeful. I felt, Oh,
if this is what someone could say with so much
to lose and so much on the line, then anything
is possible. And then I saw absorbed in the broader
(24:40):
public conversation around Epstein and m I T and I
saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed her. I saw
Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem instead of
a blessing. And I was not okay watching that. I
(25:02):
saw you know, Reddit forums where people were like, if
she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa.
I saw a lot of hate being speed on Twitter.
I saw so like the further the rings of influence
went out, the more I saw this woman's brave call
of public leadership being received, how most black women who
(25:23):
are moral, who practice moral courage in public spaces being received.
And I was not okay with that. And you know me,
and you know I've walked through fires in the past
where that was the art that played out. And I
could knew I could not in good conscious say that,
(25:47):
um do nothing and be okay with that, or say
nothing and do it and be okay. With that more,
there are no girls on the internet after this quick break,
and we're back, even though they had never met. Sabrina
(26:08):
was inspired by Ottawa's actions at m I T. She
remembered all the times in her own career that she's
both got against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it.
Speaking out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't rewatch
the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her
being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right,
even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact
same thing. And while his recording was a big part
(26:31):
of why Edo stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was
risking his personal safety by speaking up. It was Ottawa.
The thing about this that really struck me was the
not just the the vulnerability of her visibility, like when
she did speak up, that step up and speak out
and say something, she was met with not even note
no support, but with a lot of hatred and anger,
(26:53):
but the invisibility of her leadership. When a white guy
says the same thing that she said, and he's not
even a part of the m I T community, his
safety grown and girls safety was never going in question.
Um and I wasn't okay with watching yet another pattern
of someone outside of a community and institution with prestige
(27:19):
be validated as a legitimate voice. I didn't want to
be I didn't want my silence to be complicit in
continuing that pattern. Sabrina thought that Ottawasha get some kind
of recognition per actions at M I T. That's when
Sabrina out the idea for the bull Prize. M I
T has this thing called the Disobedience Prize. It is
(27:41):
a two hundred fifty dollar catch award no strange attack,
given to social change leaders who speak truth, power, and
practice moral leadership and ethics. And I thought M I
T has no right to say what ethical leadership looks
like if they are letting this um man stay in
(28:02):
this role, if they're letting this happen to young black
women in their community. So I was like, Hey, I
have a voice and I have power and I can
do something. And I think says, I'm thing. I wanted
this young woman to know that I see her. So uh,
And then I was like, you know what, why don't
I give you an award? So I said, would it?
(28:24):
Would it be okay. I crowdfunded a leadership prize for you,
and she was like, that would be really so you
thank you so much. I wrote a letter um that
you see on bold price dot com where I said
that you know, I do not know her, but I
admire her courage and UM that I wasn't okay watching
(28:45):
a young black woman speak up and lead with courage
and um and not only not be seen but also
be harmed for it. I think if we need to
there's the world as it is, and the world is
it should be, and if we want to build the
world as it should be, did we need to reframe
what leadership looks like so that when these these events happen,
(29:08):
people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors.
They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders.
So I wanted to use my voice and my power
and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from
blame to leadership, from the world as it is to
the world that it should be, and that it is
(29:29):
not just for right to speak out to protect women
in her community, but also it's within all of our
abilities to speak out and do the same thing. The
other piece that I was that did not sit well
with me. Was watching really powerful people that we both
know not recognize their own power and agencies. So I want,
(29:52):
I believe and the power of invitation, and I don't
believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice or ignorance,
but the that an opportunity for them to participate in
something different and transformative wasn't there. So I decided to
create it. We are going to refashion the Disobedience Prize
and we're going to make it the Bowld Prize. And
(30:14):
I called it the Bowld Prize for three specific reasons. One,
when Ethan's aacrament person announced and his thing, that's when
I was like, someone should give him an award. The
second thing in Ottawa's piece she used as the phrase
I stand by my advisor is Ethan's acraments or advisor.
She wrote, I stand by my advisor and his bold
(30:34):
decision to step down, and I was like, oh, that
word bold. And then three, when I was in a
situation where I was speaking out against sexual misconduct and
racial injustice, one of the people who were complicited in
covering it up had the audacity to call me bold,
and I thought to myself. Yeah, you know, I am bold,
and maybe this wouldn't be so hard if more people were.
(31:01):
M I T. S Media lab is called the future
of factory. But do we even want a future designed
by powerful people that would look the other way when
it comes to abuse? What kind of future would that
leave us? With the choices that m I T made
to um enable as seen and be complicit and covering
for a sexual predator, those deliberate decisions and choice that
(31:26):
were made outside of a moral compass, and so two
somehow envelope that into like they get to be leaders
someone ethics look like, and not only just what ethics
look like, but what the future can it can be
in a fold, I don't want a future imagined by
(31:47):
people who participate in systems like so. I want to
build a future with leaders like Ottawa who can, who
who not only make choice, do do the heart be
something hard to do it anyway, but are willing to
absorb the blowback that comes with it because it's the
(32:08):
right thing to do. Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over for
Ottawa as the inaugural recipient of the Bowl Prize. The
average donation was seventy I was just so at all,
I was like, oh my god, thank you so much.
But not just because I mean this was a stranger
and not just any shatters. She was a black woman
(32:29):
as well and had just somehow like seen my pain
from far away or seeing the struggle and was like,
I need to do something for those women. And so
that was the true like prize for me. It was
like how many people came together to support my voice
when I had felt for a long time that I
was on the outside of things. I feel, just for
journalistic integrity purposes, I should say I'm one of the
(32:52):
fun I'm one of the donators of that. I was,
you know, I I agree. I thought, I you that Sabrina,
who is this has been a really powerful force in
my own life is personally um would reach out to
you like that. I thought that was so beautiful. And
it really goes back to what you were saying at
the beginning of our interview about sort of being lifted
(33:13):
up by this community of black women and lifting them
up as well, Like it's just it is really special,
and I think it was important for me, even though
you know, you and I had never met, it was
important for me to let you know that people out
there had your back, We were rooting for you, like
watching what you were doing, like your what your your
(33:34):
bravery and your courage reverberates. You know, you never know
who is You never know who is going to be
seeing what you did, and that's going to be the
reason why they speak up thank you. Yeah. I think
that's also been another like big thing that I've gained
is you just never know whose life you're going to
(33:56):
touch or who's who like way words will we each
And there's been so many like random people who were
you know, saying what you're saying, like oh, you gave
me the courage to do this, or you give me
the courage to write this and to say this and whatever.
And I've been like, okay, like this can be a movement,
like the Bold Prize can be a movement, like it
can be something that people aspired to get. I didn't
(34:19):
have a vendetta against Joey like personally either, so it
wasn't like I wanted him fired or to resign and
would only be happy once that happened. Because clearly this
issue was deeply structural within M I t as well.
So I felt vindicated after like maybe you know time
after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with
(34:43):
the letters of support and you know, by people encouraging
me to keep speaking my mind, but we still have
so much work to do. Like as an institution here,
what's your advice for other women about speaking truth to
power even when it's tough. The first is, I really
think it is a lonely process and it isn't easy.
I've you know, I've learned that firsthand. And I think
(35:08):
I decide sound like kind of mythical, but I think
drawing power from others before you do what you need
to do is so important because you're gonna need so
much energy to keep going and to like not backtrack
and what you said because people don't agree with you, um,
and so like if that's reading, or if that's talking
(35:30):
to actual people, or if that's listening to Lizzo, Like
literally drawing power from other women in history and time,
because there's so many who have done the thing that
you want to do is so important, gives you stamina.
Institutions like m I T are powerful, but so are women.
So is community women being in community with each other
(35:51):
and lifting each other up and inspiring each other to
speak our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems,
and women can envision bolder futures and right or realities
when we come together. There are no Girls on the Internet.
Was created by Me bridget Tad. It's a production of
iHeart Radio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato
(36:14):
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tad. For
more podcasts for my Heart, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against miners,
and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls
on the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio
and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There
(00:20):
Are No Girls on the Internet. You've probably heard about
American financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled guilty and was convicted
in two thousand and eight procuring an underage girl for sex.
In July of last year, he was arrested on charges
of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking.
He was found dead in prison in August. In addition
(00:41):
to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton,
Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, and incredibly accused rapist President
Donald Trump, Epstein also had deep connections to the tech
world despite being a convicted sex offender. On September seven,
Ronan Farrow published an expose in The New Yorker that
found that the ma Stituts Institute of Technology or m
(01:01):
i T, had a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein than
it had previously acknowledged, even as officials knew he was
a convicted sex offender, and that the university went to
great lengths to cover it up. Now here's just some
of what Pharaoh found. Even though Epstein was disqualified and
m I t S official donor database, the Media Lab
continued to accept money from him, consulted him about the
(01:22):
use of funds, and by marking his contributions as anonymous,
avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly and within the university.
Epstein appeared to act as a go between for wealthy
donors like Bill Gates to pump money into m I T.
According to Pharaoh, m I t s efforts to conceal
Epstein's connections to the university went so far that staff
referred to Epstein as Voldemort or he who must not
(01:43):
be named. Whistle Blower Sidney Swinson, a former m I
T Development associate, told Pharaoh that the Lab's leadership made
it explicit even in her earliest days with them, that
Epstein's donations had to be kept secret. Staffords knew about
m I t s relationship with Epstein. Prominent faculty advisor
Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's piece was published.
(02:04):
Joy Eto, the director of the m I T Media
Lab resigned in the latest fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein.
M I T is opening an investigation into its ties
to the financier and convicted sex offender. The announcement came
just one day after The New Yorker revealed that m
I T S Media Lab was attempting to conceal donations
from Epstein. Now, there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein,
(02:29):
but this story isn't really about him. It's about courage,
community and power. We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes,
and most people credit Roman Pharaoh with bringing their full
scope to light. But even before Rodan Pharaoh's piece was published,
women in the m I T community spoke up and
we should honor their voices too. To the Future, m
(02:50):
I T S Media Lab a place that follows crazy
ideas wherever they may leave. We get to think about
the future. What does the world look like ten years,
twenty years, thirty years, which should it look like? The
m I T Media Lab is an important place. CBS
even dubbed at the future Factory, and it's more technologists.
Ottawatamboya knew she had to be Yeah, I came here
(03:14):
because it is sort of a place for misfits, the
Media Lab. It is into disciptionary and has sort of
the intersection of tech and art and design, and that
was what I was looking for when I graduated from
undergrad UM. I worked for a couple of years back
and I will be where I'm from and became a
(03:36):
VR developer on the side on top of my job
and needed I was sort of like looking for somewhere
to find myself UM and I'd heard about the Media
Lab and how sort of uh civic minded. One of
the groups was called Civic Media and our motto is
tech for Social Change, and I was like, well, that
(03:57):
sounds like exactly what I want to do. Yes, I
applied and then it worked out. Ottawa was raised and
shaped by a community of strong, resilient women, and that
upbringing has been a big part of how she shows
up to the world today. Yeah, for sure. I mean,
my work is always about women, and it's always about
It's always about women in Africa. Sometimes it's a bit
(04:17):
more general than than that. But I have worked in
my robe in my whole life. I've studied away from
my robe, but always try to bring back my research
and the questions that I'm asking too home and the
women that I've worked with in informal sentiments in Kenya.
But you know, that's just my research. But how I
(04:39):
approached studying and how I approach being in big institutions
is definitely sort of inspired by how I was raised
by my mom and my grandma and I have like
a thousand aunts. Um grew up in something of the matriarchy,
I would say so, yeah, for sure. So you were
raised in a community of strong, badass women. Yeah, and
(04:59):
like the scary ones too, so like we look at
them with a lot of love and admiration but also
a lot of fear. Audible works with virtual reality, so
that means she has to be able to imagine worlds
that haven't even been seeing yet. It's a spirit that
drives her both personally and professionally. Do you think that
that sort of work has helped you kind of imagine
(05:20):
a future where things can be better than they are? Yeah,
I think so, I would say so. I think I've
always sort of had that in me before I started
playing on b R and and and and I think
those projects are sort of things that are already within me.
As opposed to things that have made me think a
certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just
(05:41):
reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men.
Actually my grand both my grandpa's are fantastic men and
have been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya
differently that, yeah, I would say, it's totally in me.
And you know, when I row that, it wasn't even
so much that I was so when I was sort
(06:03):
of talking against my director, it wasn't even so much
that I was imagining a different future. It was more
like this current present isn't Something is off, something is
not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up
is if somebody's not right, you fix it or you
say something about it, but you don't sit around and
do nothing. As a grad student in the Media Lab,
(06:25):
Ottawa published a piece in the Tech m I T
Student publication about the university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it,
she called for the resignation of Joy Itto, the head
of the m I T Media Lab. Her piece brand
weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would go on to echo her
points in his New York or expose on September seven.
The only difference is Ottawa call for Itto to resign,
and after Pharaoh's piece was published, he actually did Did
(06:48):
you ever feel like people have an easier time taking
this situation seriously when it's reported by a white man?
I mean, yeah, for sure. And I appreciate Ronan Farwer's
work a lot, and we actually got to meet him
and we kind of talked about this. But you know,
Senior Spencer, and she was the real hero of the story.
I mean, she was the actual whistle blower. And sometimes
(07:09):
people treat me like I was a whistle blower when
I didn't whistle blow anything. I just have the same
information that everybody else had and sort of said my
opinion about it. And for sure, I mean, even on
the comments on my article, like there were so many
comments I had to do with my race and ethnicity
and where I'm from, as opposed to you know, not
(07:30):
agreeing with me and my ideas. It was very much like, well,
you're not from America, you don't know what we're talking about.
And then Ronan Farrell writes this article and of course
everyone just jump ship. And you know, I totally understood
my director resigning after that I was just more shocked
of how many people said, oh, we were wrong after
(07:51):
the article, because to me, it's kind of like we
already had that information beforehand, and people had made up
those decision in their decision to support him at that point.
And it's only when a powerful and not just white man,
a powerful white man writes about it that it's enough
to sort of sway people's opinions or feelings were at
(08:12):
least they're vocal ones. So I heard an NPR interview
where you described your meeting with Edo, where he basically said,
I agree with all the things that you're saying. All
the things that you say I did. I totally did.
You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose
my job over it. Yeah, And there were a lot
of people who felt that way, and a lot of
people will still feel that way because he kind of
(08:33):
was the heart of the Media Lab and a lot
of people depended on him for their projects, for funding,
for you know, other people were coming into the Media
Lab for the first time under his leadership, So it
makes sense that some people feel that way. I think
the Ronan Pharaoh thing was interesting because we had that
(08:54):
conversation one afternoon, and then it was that same afternoon
that Ronan Iris article dropped, So he between our meeting
and him resigning was maybe four or five hours, like
really know ledge, Yeah, um, so you know it was.
It was overall like really shocking. But to me, that's
again a power thing. It's a totally different situation if
(09:15):
one first year massive student who you know, has no
power whatsoever says you should resign, and it's a totally
different thing if Ronan Pharaoh comes after you, and he
had he has a lot of unstake. It's not just
his job at the media lab. He has a lot
of venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that
I think must have been in his head to protect.
(09:38):
But yeah, I mean, I don't know what it was
that made him cave in at that moment. It's easy
to think about marginalized people who speak up in these
situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers being pretty
scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength from the
courage of other women and girls on the continent. The
fear I was feeling was actually from my mom, because
(10:00):
she didn't want me to write the article, and I
don't like disagreeing with my mom, but we just did
on this particular issue, and she was coming from a
perspective of fear or trying to take care of her
baby that she sent to America to study, Like you know,
that she was scared that something that had happened to
my degree, or that I might lose my visa or
something and not be able to finish. But I don't know,
(10:23):
I didn't have that fear so much. And I had
just happened to be reading a really amazing book called
Beneath the Time or in Tree, which is that is
to say of CNN about the Baco Iran Bring Back
our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of courage
there was so wild that it just so happened that
(10:46):
this is all happening at the same time, and I'm
seeing myself as such a small player and seeing the
thing that I want to do is not that big
compared to some of the things that these girls went
through and some of the things that they fought for
again literal terrorists, And I was like, Okay, if they
have this kind of courage to stand in with a
(11:06):
gun to their face and not change their religion because
it's what they believe in. Then if I believe in
this thing, then you know, the least I can do
is say it with my chest, you know. Um, So
that was how I was feeling. So I was actually
feeling like kind of empowered inspired while I was writing it.
I sometimes describe myself as a radical feminist, but there's
(11:29):
nothing radical about it. It's just that the word feminists
sometimes seems radical to people. But I just am a
product of so many amazing women that it's not shocking
that I search for even more inspiration from other women
on the continent, around the world. After her letter calling
(11:49):
for Eto to resign was published, things got rough for Ottawa.
So what was the climate like for you at M
I t after you published your piece? Who um, it's so.
I mean the very next day or the day after
I published this article, like a website comes out saying
we support your retail and it's signed by like, you know,
(12:12):
pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and
it's signed by all you know, my colleagues and all
these people, and it's a direct response to my one article.
And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting,
you know, some not nice comments, but I was able
to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it
really highlated to me how fearful people can get when
(12:34):
you speak the truth, or when you say your own truth.
Because for me, a whole website springing up with like
it's signed with all these hundreds of names just because
one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and
that student has no power, Like I don't know why
there was so much fear or so much anger or
(12:56):
so much defense because nobody else else. There was lots
of articles about it. There was lots of articles that
were very nonpartisan and saying what happened, but nobody asked
for him to be resigned to resign except me. And
it's almost as if like that one statement of that
one article, like it was like a way through the
(13:18):
media lab and everyone was like pushing back, as if
what I said might sort of break the whole media
lab or make it fall apart um, and some people
until today, I think it's my fault, like for sure,
and you know, there's nothing I can do about that,
and I'm not going to sort of try to pand
it to those people. But I don't know. It just
showed me. It really taught me. The power of words.
(13:40):
We'll be right back after this quick break, and we're
back by establishing financial relationships with respective organizations like m I.
T Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover,
protection and most of importantly, reputational redemption. Once you've got
(14:03):
the protection of that kind of power, it can be
hard to penetrate power. Powerful friends, powerful names, powerful money.
All of it makes it harder for people who exist
outside of that power to speak out about bad behavior.
Why do you think the media lab overlooked Epstein's crimes?
Do you think it was just the money and they
didn't care where it came from, or do you think
(14:25):
it was something else. I know that some people knew
and some people didn't know, so I can really only
speak for the person that I know for sure knew,
which is Joey, and the rest I don't know. And
you know he he wielded a lot of power in
this lab. We do know for a fact that there
were people who who including my advisor Ethan's recommend who
(14:48):
spoke out and said that this was not a good
idea and said that we shouldn't take money from Epstein,
and they were ignored. I mean, the hard core truth
is that money is power, and there is a massive
incentive to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're going
(15:08):
to get power by ignoring them. I think the other
thing to remember with the Epstein situation is that he
wasn't giving the media that much money anyway. I think
a lot of the money that was and m I
T report just came out on the funding issue and
we found out that Joey was actually trying to secure
much bigger part of funding for his own venture capital
(15:30):
funds UM, So huge incentive to ignore what was sort
of on the surface UM. And then the other thing
is just I don't think men get it all the time,
Like I don't think I sometimes I really think that
some people thought that it's just not that big a
deal because they have no understanding on what that relationship
(15:55):
even in and of itself. But without money means for
the victims of Epstein's they have no idea how this
consolidation of power represses the victims in silence system. It
almost sounds like Epstein was trying to use his money
to kind of create this cover so that if anybody
ever tried to call him out on his actions, he
could just be like oh, well, look at all these
(16:15):
powerful influential men I surround myself with. In some ways
was really smart because he didn't actually have that much money.
It wasn't a Bill Gates, but had enough to sort
of know the right people and actually build a social
circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen, and
(16:37):
it was so strong that everybody wanted to be a
part of it. And it was Epstein's name that you
had to know to get sort of in that circle.
Ottawa still thinks highly at m I T, but the
backlash she faced for speaking out against Joto showed her
that things are not always as shiny as they look
from the outside. And I think the media of you know,
(17:01):
it's hard because I love this place, like I've had
a fantastic two years. I've learned so much, I've grown
so much, and I wouldn't change it for anything. But
I think this experience has just been such an example
of that because it's so shiny on the outside, like
it's so glamorous, everyone wants to be here. But that
(17:21):
doesn't that doesn't mean that we don't have issues institutional
issues with power and race and class and all these
other things. That might make the place, so I'm not
so amazing. Do you think that there should be more
scrutiny on other powerful men who had like financial entanglements
with Epstein. I feel like a lot of them have
sort of been able to skirt public scrutiny and like
(17:42):
public question asking about what what exactly their dealings with
this person were. Oh, yeah, for sure, Yeah, I think
you know from the out because I mean, because I
can't speak for much more than M I T. But
I know, you know, even Harvard had relations took a
lot of money from Epstein, but they just declined to
even talk about it, and so it just they sort
(18:04):
of took the mom path and everyone forgot about it,
whereas at M I T. It was so widely talked about.
And Epstein's network is so extensive that going through every
single man who interacted with him, or woman for that
for that matter, actually who interacted with him and took
(18:25):
money from him, and what they knew and how they
knew it is extremely difficult. So I don't know how
to do that, But there should be a way larger
conversation around these networks of power, whether we isolate individuals
within them or not, And I think that also has
a lot to do with who's willing to speak, who's
(18:47):
willing to come forward with information, because the less you know,
when we don't know anything, all we can do is speculate,
and they have power, and that doesn't really work. So yeah,
I don't know. I feel like everyone should be held accountable,
for sure, but it's I don't even know where you
start with Epstein. You know, I almost wonder if this
is part of the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his
(19:08):
money in so many powerful places and hands and institutions
that untangling it almost seems kind of impossible. Yeah, And
I'm a firm believe of nothing is impossible. But you know,
there's such a close link. And I'm not saying that
anyone who took his money did anything more than that,
but there is, you know, especially with the people who
are closer with him, there is a link with those
(19:29):
people and victims, you know, And I think right now
what needs to happen is that the victims narratives need
to be centered, you know, and the people who have
been hurt by Epstein need to have space to say,
you know, this is how I was hurt, This is
feeling this is what I need to recover and sort
of if they feel up for it, these are the
(19:50):
people who hurt me. Beyond Epstein, it's hard to admit
that people and institutions that mean a lot to us
are actually fostering abusive behavior. Joy was a beloved figure
at m I T. And that made it that much
harder for the community to reckon with the fact that
he enabled, benefited from, and covered up for an abuser.
Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and
(20:14):
inspiration and resource to the media lab students that and
and faculty that people didn't want to believe that, you know,
he had done this thing that they didn't agree with,
And it was much easier if we just said, okay,
let's sweep it under the rug and move on and
pretend like this never happened. And so I understand that
(20:34):
to some degree. But you know, the world is like
constantly changing, and I think if you're sort of always
that person on the bottom of the ladder in certain societies,
like it's always it always comes from the bottom up,
like it's always that change in institution is never going
to happen by the people who for who the institution
is working, and the media was working. For me, it wasn't.
(20:59):
And I was having a great time, but I didn't
have the same feelings about the director that most of
my naysay has had. You know, I wasn't actually giving
up I don't know, funding for a specific project by
calling him out. So in other ways, it was easier
for me than I you know, I get why it
(21:19):
was easier for me than other people. But for a
place that calls itself the future factory, for a place
that prides itself in imagining and creating the future literally
like or, the standard has got to be higher, and
it's got to be higher, not from a tech perspective,
but from a human perspective too. And so this is
where it starts to look like the Academy Awards. And
(21:42):
so first I want to invite up the winners of
the two fifty thousand dollar Disobedience Award, the second largest
cast prize and m I T I would say, after
the Lemilson Award for Innovation, um so Taranto Burke and
Sherry Marts and Deathan Mclaw could's come up with this award.
We are recognizing their leadership and dedication in amplifying the
(22:05):
voices of survivors of sexual violence and harassment, vommending positive
change towards gender equality, and demonstrating defiance in the face
of oppression and apathy. Thank you very much. In m
I T started the Disobedience Award, a yearly award given
to people in tech who speak truth to power. The
award came with a two hundred and fifty thou dollars
and no strings attached prize in it was awarded to
(22:28):
me to Creator Toronto Burke, Beth Ann McLaughlin and share
A mart as representatives of me Too and the me
to Instep movement that highlighted people speaking up against sexual
harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass orb and,
in a particularly disgusting piece of irony, because of his
financial contributions to m I T, convicted sex offender and
serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award
(22:52):
that same year two. I know you're infuriated now, but
this is where the story gets a little bit brighter.
My friend Sabrina her Seisa is the kind of person
I hope that you all have in your lives. Mentor
doesn't really cover just how impactful she's been in my
own life. She's a human rights technologist and the founder
of b Bold Media, and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting
(23:12):
other women or speaking truth to power, even when she
gets shipped for it. Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa,
but she did read her story. Friend of mine set
me a link to Ottawa's off ed in the uh
Might student newspaper, and when I read it, I thought
it was so At first, I thought this was so
beautifully written, and it was written from a place of
(23:34):
love and um and leadership, and from clearly this was
the voice of someone who cares deeply, not just for
women and children, but also for community. And then I
saw the art of how her off ed was being
received in m tea community and in the broader technology community,
(23:55):
and that is when things started to not sit well
with me. In our bridget our start women in technology community,
I saw Ottawa's op ed being received as like this
is a grave call for a student. But it also
I saw a lot of echoing of helplessness from very
powerful women in technology and a lot of ringing of
(24:18):
hands and a lot of oh what do we do now?
Or I feel hopeless? And when I read Ottawa's op ed,
I felt the opposite of hopeless. I felt hopeful. I felt, Oh,
if this is what someone could say with so much
to lose and so much on the line, then anything
is possible. And then I saw absorbed in the broader
(24:40):
public conversation around Epstein and m I T and I
saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed her. I saw
Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem instead of
a blessing. And I was not okay watching that. I
(25:02):
saw you know, Reddit forums where people were like, if
she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa.
I saw a lot of hate being speed on Twitter.
I saw so like the further the rings of influence
went out, the more I saw this woman's brave call
of public leadership being received, how most black women who
(25:23):
are moral, who practice moral courage in public spaces being received.
And I was not okay with that. And you know me,
and you know I've walked through fires in the past
where that was the art that played out. And I
could knew I could not in good conscious say that,
(25:47):
um do nothing and be okay with that, or say
nothing and do it and be okay. With that more,
there are no girls on the internet after this quick break,
and we're back, even though they had never met. Sabrina
(26:08):
was inspired by Ottawa's actions at m I T. She
remembered all the times in her own career that she's
both got against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it.
Speaking out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't rewatch
the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her
being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right,
even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact
same thing. And while his recording was a big part
(26:31):
of why Edo stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was
risking his personal safety by speaking up. It was Ottawa.
The thing about this that really struck me was the
not just the the vulnerability of her visibility, like when
she did speak up, that step up and speak out
and say something, she was met with not even note
no support, but with a lot of hatred and anger,
(26:53):
but the invisibility of her leadership. When a white guy
says the same thing that she said, and he's not
even a part of the m I T community, his
safety grown and girls safety was never going in question.
Um and I wasn't okay with watching yet another pattern
of someone outside of a community and institution with prestige
(27:19):
be validated as a legitimate voice. I didn't want to
be I didn't want my silence to be complicit in
continuing that pattern. Sabrina thought that Ottawasha get some kind
of recognition per actions at M I T. That's when
Sabrina out the idea for the bull Prize. M I
T has this thing called the Disobedience Prize. It is
(27:41):
a two hundred fifty dollar catch award no strange attack,
given to social change leaders who speak truth, power, and
practice moral leadership and ethics. And I thought M I
T has no right to say what ethical leadership looks
like if they are letting this um man stay in
(28:02):
this role, if they're letting this happen to young black
women in their community. So I was like, Hey, I
have a voice and I have power and I can
do something. And I think says, I'm thing. I wanted
this young woman to know that I see her. So uh,
And then I was like, you know what, why don't
I give you an award? So I said, would it?
(28:24):
Would it be okay. I crowdfunded a leadership prize for you,
and she was like, that would be really so you
thank you so much. I wrote a letter um that
you see on bold price dot com where I said
that you know, I do not know her, but I
admire her courage and UM that I wasn't okay watching
(28:45):
a young black woman speak up and lead with courage
and um and not only not be seen but also
be harmed for it. I think if we need to
there's the world as it is, and the world is
it should be, and if we want to build the
world as it should be, did we need to reframe
what leadership looks like so that when these these events happen,
(29:08):
people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors.
They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders.
So I wanted to use my voice and my power
and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from
blame to leadership, from the world as it is to
the world that it should be, and that it is
(29:29):
not just for right to speak out to protect women
in her community, but also it's within all of our
abilities to speak out and do the same thing. The
other piece that I was that did not sit well
with me. Was watching really powerful people that we both
know not recognize their own power and agencies. So I want,
(29:52):
I believe and the power of invitation, and I don't
believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice or ignorance,
but the that an opportunity for them to participate in
something different and transformative wasn't there. So I decided to
create it. We are going to refashion the Disobedience Prize
and we're going to make it the Bowld Prize. And
(30:14):
I called it the Bowld Prize for three specific reasons. One,
when Ethan's aacrament person announced and his thing, that's when
I was like, someone should give him an award. The
second thing in Ottawa's piece she used as the phrase
I stand by my advisor is Ethan's acraments or advisor.
She wrote, I stand by my advisor and his bold
(30:34):
decision to step down, and I was like, oh, that
word bold. And then three, when I was in a
situation where I was speaking out against sexual misconduct and
racial injustice, one of the people who were complicited in
covering it up had the audacity to call me bold,
and I thought to myself. Yeah, you know, I am bold,
and maybe this wouldn't be so hard if more people were.
(31:01):
M I T. S Media lab is called the future
of factory. But do we even want a future designed
by powerful people that would look the other way when
it comes to abuse? What kind of future would that
leave us? With the choices that m I T made
to um enable as seen and be complicit and covering
for a sexual predator, those deliberate decisions and choice that
(31:26):
were made outside of a moral compass, and so two
somehow envelope that into like they get to be leaders
someone ethics look like, and not only just what ethics
look like, but what the future can it can be
in a fold, I don't want a future imagined by
(31:47):
people who participate in systems like so. I want to
build a future with leaders like Ottawa who can, who
who not only make choice, do do the heart be
something hard to do it anyway, but are willing to
absorb the blowback that comes with it because it's the
(32:08):
right thing to do. Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over for
Ottawa as the inaugural recipient of the Bowl Prize. The
average donation was seventy I was just so at all,
I was like, oh my god, thank you so much.
But not just because I mean this was a stranger
and not just any shatters. She was a black woman
(32:29):
as well and had just somehow like seen my pain
from far away or seeing the struggle and was like,
I need to do something for those women. And so
that was the true like prize for me. It was
like how many people came together to support my voice
when I had felt for a long time that I
was on the outside of things. I feel, just for
journalistic integrity purposes, I should say I'm one of the
(32:52):
fun I'm one of the donators of that. I was,
you know, I I agree. I thought, I you that Sabrina,
who is this has been a really powerful force in
my own life is personally um would reach out to
you like that. I thought that was so beautiful. And
it really goes back to what you were saying at
the beginning of our interview about sort of being lifted
(33:13):
up by this community of black women and lifting them
up as well, Like it's just it is really special,
and I think it was important for me, even though
you know, you and I had never met, it was
important for me to let you know that people out
there had your back, We were rooting for you, like
watching what you were doing, like your what your your
(33:34):
bravery and your courage reverberates. You know, you never know
who is You never know who is going to be
seeing what you did, and that's going to be the
reason why they speak up thank you. Yeah. I think
that's also been another like big thing that I've gained
is you just never know whose life you're going to
(33:56):
touch or who's who like way words will we each
And there's been so many like random people who were
you know, saying what you're saying, like oh, you gave
me the courage to do this, or you give me
the courage to write this and to say this and whatever.
And I've been like, okay, like this can be a movement,
like the Bold Prize can be a movement, like it
can be something that people aspired to get. I didn't
(34:19):
have a vendetta against Joey like personally either, so it
wasn't like I wanted him fired or to resign and
would only be happy once that happened. Because clearly this
issue was deeply structural within M I t as well.
So I felt vindicated after like maybe you know time
after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with
(34:43):
the letters of support and you know, by people encouraging
me to keep speaking my mind, but we still have
so much work to do. Like as an institution here,
what's your advice for other women about speaking truth to
power even when it's tough. The first is, I really
think it is a lonely process and it isn't easy.
I've you know, I've learned that firsthand. And I think
(35:08):
I decide sound like kind of mythical, but I think
drawing power from others before you do what you need
to do is so important because you're gonna need so
much energy to keep going and to like not backtrack
and what you said because people don't agree with you, um,
and so like if that's reading, or if that's talking
(35:30):
to actual people, or if that's listening to Lizzo, Like
literally drawing power from other women in history and time,
because there's so many who have done the thing that
you want to do is so important, gives you stamina.
Institutions like m I T are powerful, but so are women.
So is community women being in community with each other
(35:51):
and lifting each other up and inspiring each other to
speak our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems,
and women can envision bolder futures and right or realities
when we come together. There are no Girls on the Internet.
Was created by Me bridget Tad. It's a production of
iHeart Radio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato
(36:14):
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tad. For
more podcasts for my Heart, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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