May 17, 2023 • 50 mins
In the first episode of our miniseries Present Future, Bridget talks with disinformation expert Nina Jankowicz. After being appointed to a position in the Biden administration to combat disinformation, she was targeted by a right wing smear campaign that upended her life and impacted her family.
Now, she’s suing Fox News for defamation. Are defamation lawsuits a new blueprint for how to combat harmful lies and harassment in the future? Listening to Nina's story, it's clear we need a change.
New Defamation Suit Against Fox Signals Continued Legal Threat: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/10/business/media/defamation-suit-fox-nina-jankowicz.html
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are back for a brand new season of their
No Girls on the Internet. I miss talking to you
all so much, and since we've been on hiatus, I'm
pretty excited for a new way to stay in touch
on Patreon. Over on our new Patreon, you can get
even more bonus content and just generally support the work
that we've been doing with the show. So if you
like what you've been doing and want to hear more
or just support the show, consider subscribing. You can find
(00:23):
that at patreon dot com slash tangody that's Ta Nngoti,
or just search for There No Girls on the Internet.
On Patreon, there's exclusive audio, exclusive writing, and a monthly
live chat with me.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Bridget.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I wanted to start the Patreon to open up new
ways to connect with all of you, so I hope
you'll join me there and help us shape the direction
of the show. I'll see you over on Patreon.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right, a young
woman who has authentically lived her life on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
On the Internet.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
In this brand new season that we're calling Present Future,
we're looking to what's next, the future of tech, the
future of discourse, the future of platforms, and the future
of us. But we're starting in kind of a familiar place.
We've already spent a lot of time talking about disinformation,
and I usually ask experts one question, So when you
think about the direction of our media ecosystem and disinformation,
(01:43):
are you hopeful, Like when you look on the horizon,
are you hopeful about what's next when it comes to
the future of combating disinformation. More and more we're seeing
some targets of particularly heinous disinformation campaigns using the judicial
system to fight back. Egene Carrol successfully sued former Present
sident Trump for defamation after he claimed that her allegation
(02:03):
that he sexually abused her was a lie. It wasn't,
and a jury ruled against him, and Carol has said
that she may even sue Trump again because Trump doubled
down on that defamatory lie in a disastrous CNN town
hall the very next day after that ruling, and after
Dominion Voting Systems sued Fox News for falsely claiming that
(02:25):
its voting machines through the twenty twenty election, Fox settled
for seven hundred and eighty seven million dollars, pretty much
acknowledging that the network promoting lies about the election in
twenty twenty was defamatory, and now a new defamation lawsuit
against Fox News may provide a signal about the future
of telling lies for profit. Last year, one of the
(02:45):
nation's leading disinformation experts, Nina Jenkowitz, was appointed by Biden
to head up the Disinformation Governance Board within the Department
of Homeland Security to learn about and counter disinformation. And
immediately afterward, Nina and her family were targetd with lies, threats,
and harassment Paul while she was pregnant. Days ago, Nina
(03:05):
filed a defamation lawsuit against Fox News. Could this be
the blueprint of how we curbed disinformation in the future.
Shortly after Nina was named to the Governance Board, I
was scheduled to interview her about her book, How to
Be a Woman Online, which chronicles online harassment. But we
couldn't because Nina had to retreat from public life after
(03:26):
the harassment campaign against her got so bad. And strangely enough,
Nina isn't even the first person that I've had to
navigate interviewing while they were basically off the grid because
of threats, and the continued sting of being silenced and
not getting to do her work because of lies and
threats was looming large when I finally did get to
speak to Nina. So the first time that you and
(03:48):
I were supposed to talk, it'd were not able to
do the interview because you were at the target of
some pretty nasty, heinous harassment. So I have to start
by just asking how are you.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I am doing.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Okay now, Bridget, thanks for asking.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I mean, it is difficult to recover from something like
what happened to me, which kind of upended.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
My entire life and the career plan I had.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
And just kind of the short version the TLDR of
what happened to me is I was appointed to a
position in the Biden administration to work on a working
group that was meant to kind of bring together bodies
within the Department of Homeland Security that were working on
counter disinformation. That working group was misconstrued in the press
and mostly the right wing press, as a ministry of
(04:34):
truth that was going to have the power to censor Americans.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Of course, we had no such power. Operationally.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We had no power, we had no full time staff
except for me, and no budget. So I don't know
where they thought we were going to do all.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
This, but at any rate, it was totally misconstrued.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
My personal life and like my online presence and all
sorts of things got dragged through the mud. I was
eight and a half months pregnant at the time, and
I ended up leaving the department, and not because of
the harassment, really, but because the department wasn't sticking up
for me or for the work, and they ended up
disbanding the working group and saying there was no need
(05:10):
for it, which I think is laughable at best. And
so since then, I obviously have my baby, I've been
kind of taking some maternity leave, taking time with my family,
and have kind of been recalibrating what it is I
want to do and how I want to show up
and like make an impact in the world. And after
my unfortunate experience with public service, it's kind of bringing
(05:33):
me to the conclusion that, like, really the work that
I want to do has to happen from outside of government, at.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Least right now, at least with this administration.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Wow, you know, I where do I even start.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I'll say, it's something interesting to me that you wrote
a book about how you survive online harassment as a
woman and found yourself and a really weird time in
your life like at the target of that, And it
reminds me a lot of like what I know about
things like reputational smear campaigns, where it's interesting to me
(06:10):
that like the administration did not support you. It would
have been I would have expected they obviously respected your
leadership enough to give you this position and then to
turn around and so quickly distance themselves from you is
really telling to me. And I think that's one of
the ways that reputational smears work. They want the target
(06:32):
to feel isolated, and they want to make it seem
that if somebody sticks up for them that will be
a bad look for them. So rather than supporting you,
they just are like, oh, that's just distance.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I do have to say, I'll give credit where credit
is due, you know. Secretary Mayorcus went on the Sunday
shows and called me like an eminent expert, and Jen
SACKI had some talking points to say at the White
House podium about me.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
But when you're confronting.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
The entire gop lie and rage machine just not enough.
Like I was on every I think seventy percent of
Fox News hourly segments for like an entire week, and
it continued for two weeks after that too. Like everyone
was like, Oh, it'll go away, don't worry about it.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
It didn't.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right, a young
woman who has authentically lived her life on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
It's easy to think of people who work on issues
like disinformation as uptight skulds. It's actually a misconception that
I've encountered a lot in my work. But Nina's vibe
is really lively and full of energy, and it lends
itself perfectly to a platform like TikTok, where she made
a cute video of her singing in a Mary Poppin'
style about disinformation. Nina loves musical theater. Now, this is
(07:42):
the kind of thing that anybody might try to do
to connect on their issues with a new audience. But
if you were watching Fox News, you would think this
was criminal. They played Nina's TikTok over and over again
and turned it into an attack, not just an attack
on Nina's work, but on Nina as a person.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
Part and grief feminist part. Frustrated karaoke singer Jankoitz is
the last.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
Person who should be trusted with distinguishing between fact and fiction.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Like there are videos of me performing musical theater people
like to make fun of that. I had a TikTok
video where I was like trying to connect with a
different audience by doing a parody of a Mary Poppins song.
It was very tongue in cheek and very deliberately silly
and campy, and everyone was.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
Like, oh my god, this is so cringe. It's not
fucking cringe. I'm sorry, it's not cringe.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
It's exactly what I wanted it be, and I'm I'm
not embarrassed of it at all. Frankly, Like Tucker Carlson
kept playing it over and over on his show, and
it's like, thanks Tucker, Like now more people have heard
me sing than I could ever.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Have hoped for in my entire life. But but what.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
You say is true, Like I think like I wasn't
close enough for the administration for them to want to
stick their neck out for me, and the work clearly
wasn't important enough for them.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
To like risk everything for it.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
And that's disappointing because what is more the core of
our democracy right now than how our body politic deals
with information, right or disinformation, frankly, And so that was
really disappointing. And it was also disappointing because the Biden
administration made such a big deal about hiring women and
people of color to political appointments and to the cabinet,
(09:20):
and it's like, Okay, if you're above a certain level,
they're gonna they're gonna go to bat for you, but
not if you're you know, at the level that I am, which, frankly,
you know, for the amount of attention that people paid
to me, you'd think I was like God. But I
was just a GS fifteen, which is like a high
ranking but not Senate confirmed appointee in Washington, with very
(09:42):
little decision making power.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I wasn't like, you know, all powerful in DHS. I
had a lot of layers above me, which you know,
is illustrated by the way that the whole thing was
rolled out. If it had been rolled out more transparently
the way that I had kind of asked for within
the department, I wouldn't have been in as bad a
situation as I read.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Let's take a quick break at her back.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Long ago and what seems like a distant, bygone era.
We used to say that you should ignore bullies and
they'll just go away, but it doesn't really work like
that when it comes to disinformation. Nina was facing an
onslaught of lies and attacks during her time at the
Biden administration, and she wasn't even allowed to speak up
for herself and correct the record, so the only messages
about her that were out there were smears, lies and attacks.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
They wouldn't let me, you know, speak up for myself,
which again, if I were above a certain level, I would.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Have been able to do that.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
So the whole thing was frustrating, and it also just
kind of goes to show that, like there's a lot
of work left to do in our institutions, not just government,
but you know, in journalistic institutions, et cetera, for sticking
up for people who are on like the public facing
side of things, especially women and people of color who
receive such outside harassment online and in real life as well.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, I mean, I to prepare for this interview, I
watched some of the clips, like interviews that you gave
on shows, and I'm not going to say any names,
there was one I was like, this guy is basically
being like I heard this lie about you thoughts, and
it was like, yeah, it's not true.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
You know, Like, I definitely think.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That It kind of bumps me out that media, the
people that we ostensibly should be able to count on
to help people discern the truth, really don't feel any
obligation to do that. They and in some cases they
inflame the tensions and lies and give them more oxygen
and allow them to spread when they should be in
the business of truth spreading and debunking. You know, I've
(11:57):
seen people say things like, oh, this board was going
to have the ability to like control what regular people say,
And I've also seen you in interviews be very clear
that if that were the case, you wouldn't be on
that board because you deeply opposed that, Like, yeah, we're
not trafficking in truth and honest statements. We're trafficking and
lies and smears, and it's we're not going to get
(12:18):
anywhere if that's how we continue to do discourse.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was so one of the
worst days was when I woke up, and.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
I mean, it was just like three weeks of hell.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
But I woke up one morning when I was still
at the department and Bill Maher had on his show
the night before just spread an absolute, complete piece of
bass about me.
Speaker 7 (12:41):
The tizarre a Nina Jenkowitz says, she's like some committee
there within this governing board with the power to quote,
edit Twitter and add context. Oh you mean, like what
Twitter is?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
That's what Twitter is.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
When SRI says something you own content.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
Yeah, these are not people in our.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Government, Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
An anonymous account online that had been for weeks going
through like all the videos of me ever posted to
the Internet. They had taken a clip from a conversation
that I had with a bunch of librarians in the
state of Georgia, and it was back from January twenty
twenty one. They had taken it completely out of context
and made it seem like I had had kind of
(13:29):
floated this idea of editing people's tweets, but what I
had actually done, and if you watch the entire kind
of conversation, it is clear someone asks me, Hey, Nina,
I just heard about this thing on Twitter called bird Watch.
Can you tell us about it? And for your listeners
that might not know. Birdwatch is a program that allows
(13:51):
people to add context to things that are trending on Twitter.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
So like, let's use Ukraine as an example in the
UK war.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
If people are claiming something that's trending like Russia was
responsible for this attack or Ukraine was responsible for this attack,
people who are you know, trusted individuals can get access
to this Birdwatch platform, which is now since then open
to everybody, and just add some context and say, okay,
here's a link to a news article, here are the
(14:21):
facts in this scenario. It's kind of like a built
in fact checking platform.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
I was not.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Super familiar with it at the time, but I was like,
I don't like this because I don't want users to
be kind of the ones that are doing Twitter's work
for it. And I had this long, involved, nuanced answer
that I went on for five minutes. He chopped one
minute of it up, and I assume it's a man,
because let's see honest. Yeah, so I don't know because
he is anonymous, but I think it's a man. He
(14:47):
chopped one one part of it up and just put
in his tweet Nina wants to edit your tweets, and
this one absolutely viral.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
Reputable reporters were being like, what if this is true?
Speaker 8 (14:57):
Blah blah blah, and then Bill Maher, without any to
fact checking whatever, it, goes to his huge audience on
his late night show and says Nina Jenkwitz and the.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
Disinformation Governance Board want to.
Speaker 9 (15:10):
Be able to edit your tweets, and it's just like,
first of all, it's a stupid idea, like no, I
would never ask for that, and second of all, like
it's not no one tried to do any bit of.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Fact checking at all. If you follow the video.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Back to where it came from, you can find out
that actually, that's not what I said at all. And
it was not just Bill Maher, but other journalists who
who frankly, were just recycling this disinformation and not doing
their due diligence at all.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
And it is disinformation, right.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Disinformation just isn't about cut and dry fakes or falsehoods.
It's about misleading information. And there was a lot of
misleading information presented about me. In fact, I just got
some more abuse and threats this week because somebody on
Fox mentioned me, and I was like, huh, what's this uptick?
About and I found that Greg Gutfield had talked about
me in a segment recently, and so one person wrote
(16:00):
to me on Facebook and said that I should be
thrown in jail for spreading lies about President Trump.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
It's like, it's.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Interesting how they want to censor me, right, but they're
not okay with other people censoring them. And that's never
what I wanted to do in the first place. It's
just so cecuitous and crazy. Anyway, I'll stop digging now, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Mean, does it do you find that it comes in
waves like that where it the harassment sort of stops
and then somebody will mention you and then you're like, oh,
an uptick and then down tick?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Is that is that kind of how it trends?
Speaker 5 (16:28):
Oh, one hundred percent?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
And it's always interesting to find out what the kernel is.
So like, for the first probably seven weeks or so,
it was just pretty constant, especially the first three weeks.
It was just constant messages, constant dms, constant tweets, people
trying to friend me on Facebook and Instagram and whatever.
I had to lock my Instagram and Twitter accounts because
there was personal stuff on there that, like I was
(16:51):
comfortable with like the level of public figure miss that
I had before people seeing that, but now with people
doxing me and calling my mother and sending me letters.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
To my home, like not as comfortable.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
So there was that, But then, you know, the craziest
thing was the culpability that I think.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Some members of Congress have.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
And I actually wrote a letter to Josh Holly and
Chuck Grassley because they continued this kind of or like,
continued perpetrating this harassment of me, and I felt like
calling them out for it because as members of Congress,
particularly as senators, they're supposed to be like.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
The more serious, deliberative body.
Speaker 10 (17:32):
Right here's Josh Holly, and your priority is setting up
a board and hiring someone who has gone to TikTok
to talk about stopping speech she doesn't like, who has
mocked voters supporters of the last president. That has been
your priority. To say that your priorities are misplaced, I
think is a dramatic understatement. And the time has come,
(17:54):
I think, mister secretary, for you to resign.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And Josh Holly on July eighteenth, so two full months
after I had resigned to the day from DHS, he
brought me up in a hearing on drones. For some reason,
there was an acting assistant secretary from DHS who I
used to work with, who was there, and he spent
half of his time, half of his allotted time, questioning
(18:18):
her about my hiring two months after I had resigned,
rather than talking about you know, unmanned aerial vehicles.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Right. And so I was just.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Incensed by this because it matched with an uptick and
harassment I got. So I sent them a letter, I
posted it publicly, and both of them just doubled down
on it. Rather than saying, you know, we're sorry for
the harassment that you and your family are getting at
this like, you know, special time in your life. I
had a six week old at the time, right, We're
sorry for this harassment. We're going to condemn the people
(18:49):
who have been sending you threats. We're going to continue
our oversight duty as senators, but we're going to pull
back from like our focus on you. Instead, they both
doubled down. And so I think this is a really
sad kind of situation that we find ourselves in America,
where there are people who are again supposed to be
setting the tone and example for the way our discourse
(19:12):
works who are tacitly, if not overtly and deliberately engaging
in harassment campaigns against people on the other side. These
things have life or death consequences. And I'm not the
only one to have gone through this stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
We see senators in the GOP endorsing like libs of
TikTok or whatever, and those people are literally like engaging
in stochastic terrorism campaigns that are about.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
To bubble over into real life.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Right, They're going to have real life consequences for trans
people and in some cases already have. We're just in
this really precarious situation and I feel like we need
some accountability and it's just not happening.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I don't know what it's going to take.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
We've gone through a pandemic that's had public safety consequences
for the nation. We've gone through, you know, in an surrection,
we've gone through protests that have been based on to
some degree disinformation where that have bubble up into clashes
that have killed people.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
And thinking of Kenosha, right.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And like, what's it going to take before we come
to our senses and either elect people who care about
the truth or like start to have some laws governing
what you say online the same.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Way that we do on the street.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I think people forget that free speech in America is
not absolute, right, Like, if people were saying these things
to me or to anybody who gets harassed online on
the street, you'd be able to get out of a
restraining order out on them, you'd be able to call
the cops. But the Internet is like this ungoverned and
ungovernable place, and I think that's that's kind of scary,
(20:47):
given how much we live our lives on the internet
these days.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, I mean I think about this all the time
of like what is it going to take? What do
you think is the answer to that question, Like do
you think that anything would rise to the level where
people will be like, gee, we need to do something.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I thought that maybe we were having that call to
action moment last fall when Francis Hogan released her whistleblower
documents and there were these, you know, series of hearings
on the Hill and people were so shocked about everything
that she was saying that it was confirmed. You know,
this is what was happening to children, This is what
was happening to different populations around the world.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
This was what was.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Happening to women, and then you know that just kind
of fizzled out, like maybe it moved the needle. Maybe
maybe senators now and members of the House are a
little bit.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
More wise to what was being said.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And she did come from a non partisan perspective, which
I think was important to kind of diffuse the polarization
of this debate, which shouldn't be polarized at all. Right,
this is not a polarization issue. This affects human beings,
that affects our democracy, no matter what political party are from.
But there doesn't seem to have been kind of that
(21:59):
momentum filled there. And I hope that we can pick
that back up, But after my experience, I'm pretty pessimistic, right, Like,
it is really depressing to me that millions, literally millions
of my fellow Americans have come into contact with me
and been told to hate me because I'm young, female
(22:19):
and had the goal to take a job in my
area of expertise trying to help my country.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Right, I was not motivated.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
By politics and taking that job, And in fact, prior
to everything that happened to me, I used to say
I would take a job working for a reasonable Republican
who wanted to work on the issues that I wanted
to work on, whether they were, you know, Russia or
something about disinformation online.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
I don't think I could say.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
That anymore with a straight face, right, because of the
lengths they went to ruin my life, and that was deliberate, right.
You said something about smear campaigns before it was explicit
that people were saying, we want to make her toxic
to the bidenmane, and I just think that's that's really
(23:04):
it's un American, frankly. So I don't know what the
answer is to your question, bridget I think I think
we're in a really bad situation, and I don't know
what it's going to take, and I.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Fear what it's going to take to wake everybody up.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Do you think that you would have gotten the same
level of hate and targeted violence like online violence against
you had you been a man?
Speaker 4 (23:28):
No, I think not at all. I have to imagine no.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
No, right, because like, first of all, even I think
Tucker Carlson even said something point blank like it's it's
like Taylor Lorenz and the Nina Jankwitz is of the
world that I hate the most, like educated white women
who think that they educated young white women who think
that they can tell us what to do or something
like that, And it's like, I'm not telling you what
(23:52):
to do, but the fact that I exist and that
I'm like putting myself into a sphere that you existed
is what bothers you, right.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
So no, there's that part to it.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
And then the fact that I'm I was young and
also pregnant, Like people talked about my my family.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Status constantly on Fox.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
They said things very famously about like how could Biden
hire her when she's about to go on maternity leave?
And it's like, because it's against the law to discriminate
against some money because of their their their parental status,
not to mention that.
Speaker 5 (24:26):
Like there was the opposite.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Side of the coin, with people saying like how could
anyone impregnate her? Or like I bet she's infertile after
this one, Like it was just like why.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Is this even something that anybody's talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
And men absolutely never get that stuff, and in fact,
if they're found to be cheating or philandering, like they're
celebrated for that. And plus you know, there was the
stuff about my looks and weight gain during pregnancy. Men
were like enlarging pictures of my chin, which had some
pregnancy acneonic.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
God forbid, it's not something you can really control.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
They were talking about my weight gain, like then after
I gave birth and the New York Times took a
picture of me for an article they did. The first
thing a couple of guys said was that I had
big boobs, and it was.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
Like, well, yeah, I'm breastfeeding right now. One guy actually was.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Like, imagine if what she did with those boobs was
I think they used a different word obviously, was feed
children instead of spread lies.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And it's like, oh, funny, you should mention that. But
it's just like a man would never write.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And they say all the time, oh, we get the
same sort of stuff, and it's like, no, like the
worst sort of sexualized something that somebody could call you
as a dick, right, and that's not so bad. It's
certainly not calling you Joe Biden's cum dumpster, which is
one of the many things that people have said to me.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Yeah, it's so upsetting.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And I also feel like when it comes to women,
when women are harassed, it's not just them, it's their partner,
it's their mom, it's their kids. It's it's her family
and the people around her, And so what.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Adds this extra layer of.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I don't know if that's something you have to think
about where it's like, well, do I really want to
engage in like this public line up work because I
don't want my partner to be harassed, don't want my
kids to be targeted.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
And a lot of the women that I've interviewed in
the course of my research for my book, as well
as the research I've done on women in politics, they
bring that up a lot, especially women of color. So
for women of color, often what will happen is they'll
get docks more frequently than white women, or their families
will be threatened. So one woman in a focus group
(26:37):
that I did was, I mean, this just really stuck
with me.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
She said, you know, we don't.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
We will often get messages that say, oh, we don't.
We hope your son doesn't end up like Trayvon Martin or.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
And it's just like, I mean, especially as a mom,
but I hope that that resonates with anybody, Like it's
clearly a threat.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
Number one and two, Like, what a horrible thing to say.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
It's just like layers of on layers of intersectional abuse,
and that's where the platforms I think really fall short.
They'll see something like that and AI certainly won't understand
the intent behind that.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
And even if you write a little note.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
To Twitter or to Facebook and say like, look at this,
this is racist, violent threat, they're not gonna take it
down because it's not. It doesn't say like explicitly I
want to come kill your son, or I hope someone
comes to kill your son.
Speaker 10 (27:35):
And.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I mean, I think we have a long way to
go there, and certainly as women, as you say, it's
not just us, it's our families. It's like I had
to call up, you know, my brother who shares a
last name with me, and hope and say, you know,
I hope that the boys, your sons have their social
media profiles locked down. Like what a heartbreaking conversation to
have to have with a bunch of teenageers who probably
(28:00):
want to do the exact exact opposite. You know.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
More, after a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I keep reading these articles about how historic numbers of
women and women of color and black women are running
for office, which is great but I know the reality
is that they have to have this extra layer of consideration,
not to mention extra expense of thinking about you know,
online and digital security in these ways and in real
(28:43):
life security in these ways.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
And it really do you feel like we're in a
situation where that is just the cost of wanting to.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Be in public service for these folks, Like we're just like,
oh yeah, like you have to factor that in when
you if you want to run for office or be
a pub but you're really dingaged in civic life and
civic discourse.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Unfortunately, it is the cost, but it absolutely should not
be the cost.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
That should not be normal.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
We shouldn't just roll over and say if you're a
woman or a woman of color, or disabled woman or
a trans woman in politics that were in public life
written large, that you have to spend all this extra money.
I mean, let me just list a couple of the
things that I pay for. I have an anti dooxing
service that scrubs my personal information from the Internet and
(29:32):
that of my family.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
That's a couple hundred dollars a year.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I have When we had to upgrade our home security
after everything happened, because again we were doxed. If we
ever decide to move from the house that got doxed,
we'll have to probably pay a lawyer to put our
home in.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
A trust so that that doesn't happen again. Let's see.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I also pay for block Party, which if your listeners
haven't it is a really good tool for basically anybody
dealing with online abuse. It will auto mute people interacting
with you, and you can have kind of different levels
of sensitivity for the replies that you want to get through.
On Twitter, you can also block people if they've liked
(30:16):
or retweeted in abusive or threatening tweets.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
So as a result of using.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Block party, I've I've blocked cool White a few people
because I don't want to. I don't frankly want to
interact with anybody who thinks it's funny to like delight
in one of the worst things ever happening to me. So,
I mean, already, that's like a couple hundred dollars a year,
and for freelance journalists or for people who you know
(30:43):
are working in nonprofit jobs or things like that. Even
government jobs, like the government certainly did not compensate me
enough for what I went through.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Let's just say.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Oh, and you know, I am lucky that I was
able to have enough savings to cover that stuff. But
there was a time not so long ago, a couple
of years ago, before my first book came out, where
like I wasn't paying taxes because I wasn't making enough
profit to be paying taxes, you know.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
So it's it's real.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Uh, the cost is real, and it is not fair,
and we need to make sure that, especially in journalism,
that when freelancers are being hired, that they're being compensated adequately,
and that they're covered legally by the publishers that they're
working for. That you know, any institution, be a academic, government, nonprofit,
(31:36):
et cetera, they're covering their employees as well.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Because the way that you.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Feel safe to speak up is knowing that people have
got your back, and they've got your back in a
material way.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Not just like you know, a philosophical way, like.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Of course we of course we should uh support your
right to a free speech, but when push comes to shove,
they're not gonna you know, pay for you to relocate
if you need to, or pay for a lawyer.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
All that stuff is super super important.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, that's something I see a lot of like particularly
in newsrooms where you know, if a young woman journalist
is being targeted or threatened.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I think that we're just starting to have a conversation
about how newsrooms can be supportive. But I think for
a long time it was just like good luck. And
also don't talk about it publicly because it will make
us look bad. So just suffer in silence and be
isolated and get no support and turn that shame inward
and we will continue.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
To function business as usual.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Like I think that, like what you said about cost
material cost is such a good point. And I think
back to like when I was a freelance journalist. I
made no money, right, I was like really barely getting by,
like scraping by, and to be expected to shoulder this
burden that my male white colleagues will never have to shoulder.
(32:58):
It's just not fair. It's not equitable.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
No, no, not at all.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
And like then on the government side too, going back
to the whole thing about like Biden, you know, making
it a commendable effort to hire people of color and
women into his administration. I think, and I've said this
to people in the administration since this happened to me, like,
not only do you need to be prepared to stick
up for those people, but you.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
There's probably some conversation that you need.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
To have with some people a certain level or above
saying like, Okay, here's the types of things that might
happen to you, Like let's make sure that you are protected.
Let's make sure that you can put in a registration
or a like deregistration request to the county to get
your name off of the documents for your house because
you're a public official. Now, like yes, in my mind,
(33:46):
did that think? Did that cross my mind as like
something that might happen? Sort of, I hoped that it wouldn't.
I didn't think it was going to be as bad
that as it was. But like probably everybody in our
polarized environment who's going into government should get at that
kind of council, anybody going into public service, not just
at the federal level. I mean, look what's happening to
(34:06):
election workers, right. It's the sad truth of the time
that we live in and the tactics that people are
using to try to get their way. But it takes
a toll, and like without loved ones, without friends who
have been helping me go through my replies and like
helping me keep track of the mentions of me on
(34:29):
alternative news streams and things like that. I mean, I
don't know what I would have done, probably just like
completely retreated from the online space. And that's exactly what
it's meant to do, right, It's meant to push us out,
to silence us, and I'm not going.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
To let that happen. I'm glad there are people around
me who don't want that to happen to me. But
not everybody has that. Not everybody has.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
That monetary psychological support that is so critical to getting
through these difficult times, and they're happening to more and
more people.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's great to want to elect women, support women, hire women,
but you also need to be honest about what those
women will face and have an understanding of what you're
going to do to create the conditions for that woman
to thrive, because it can't just be like, yeah, support
black women, yes, like more women this and that, but
then like, once they get to the place that you
(35:20):
champion them to get to, they are on their own
for this highly charged attacks that they will face because
they got to this position that you said that you
wanted them to be in, Like it has to be
a fuller conversation about what it looks like.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, I I don't know what I.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Say this a lot like in future positions, whether they're
in public service or not, Like when I'm being interviewed, what.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Will I say? Like will I be like?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
And if X, Y, and Z happens, what are you
guys going to do? Like I feel like I'm going
to run this trust deficit for the rest of my life.
And I don't know that a lot of organizations are
going to have a good answer. But like in good conscience,
go into that sort of environment if I don't feel
either like I've got somebody supporting me or a group
(36:08):
of people supporting me, or am I going to have
the authority to be able to make the decisions that
will create those like support systems for other people?
Speaker 5 (36:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And it's hard for me also to encourage young women
to go into public service after what happened to me.
I've been giving them the advice like, if you want
to do it, you should do it, but just recognize
what's in the realm of possibility.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Unfortunately, so speaking of that, you know, the book How
to Be a Woman Online. What advice do you have
for women who are just trying to exist on the internet.
You know, you mentioned earlier in our interview that you
were really attacked for being a woman who has lived
your life and had social media the way that we
(36:55):
all have, and they created a cost for that. They
dinged you for doing something that in twenty twenty two
we all do. And so I guess my question is, like,
what kind of advice do you give for women listening
who want to participate in civic and public life are
also on women online?
Speaker 4 (37:14):
You know?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
What do you say?
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Yeah, it's a really delicate balance.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
So I've interviewed people who run the gamut of like
they've kind of kept a lot of their personal stuff
off the internet, to like people like me who are
super super online. Right, And I still have no regrets,
Like I again that TikTok video, still not embarrassed of
it to this day. The things that people were making
(37:41):
fun of it.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Did numbers like You're like kind of prolific on TikTok.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
I had to log it down.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Now I don't even do it anymore, But I'm trying
to get into Instagram reels.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
It's hard. It's hard for a millennial like me. I'm like,
what is this? But you know, like.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
I don't regret any of it, but I also recognize
that it's not for everybody, and so I think there's
a delicate balance.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
You have to draw that line for yourself.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
The thing that I encourage everybody to do is, no
matter how you're gonna interact online, to understand what's going
to keep you safe tech wise and opsec wise. So like,
don't post pictures of you in front of your house
or like at the bar you frequent, right Like, it
is so easy for bad actors to geolocate you. Look
(38:30):
what happened to Keffle's where she was docks a second time,
just based on the pattern of the hotel sheets to
the hotel she had fled to with her cat, Right Like,
we have to be extraordinarily careful. But if you're posting
things not in real time, like have a little bit
of a lag, If you're not posting from the same
location and giving away like clues to your pattern of life,
(38:54):
that's that's much better online practice for pictures and videos
and things like that. When it comes to it, security
just a couple of easy fixes that are kind of
set it and forget it for everybody. Make sure you
know you're using two factor authentication, complex passwords, and a
password manager. If you're traveling to dangerous countries like authoritarian countries,
(39:16):
basically you'll probably want to have like a burner phone
or a burner laptop to make sure that your comms
are secure.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
Using a VPN is a good idea.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
When you're on you know, more open Wi Fi and
on your home network. Things like that I think are
just really important for people who might be targets of
hacking or other kind of cyber harassment issues from doxing
to cyber stocking. All of that's super important for you
(39:46):
to keep in mind. And that knowing that I have
that extra layer of security like makes me feel more
empowered to speak out. And then beyond that, cultivating a
network of people who get what you do and who
you can go to when the going gets tough, and
that's harder than it seems. The first time I dealt
with online harassment, which admittedly was nothing compared to what
(40:08):
I went through this spring, a lot of my friends
and family didn't get it right, Like they were like, ah,
just ignore the trolls, don't feed the trolls, don't go
on Twitter. And I'm like, but my life and my
work is on Twitter, right, You're basically asking.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
Me to not work and not put myself out there.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
And I think once they understood that, then I had
a little bit more support. But frankly, the people that
I rely on most when this stuff is going on
are the super online writers and folks who are kind
of in my sphere that understand how this stuff works
and so cultivate that.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
Community for yourself. I think that's.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Paramount, frankly, and I hope that everybody's able to do it.
And if you ever need anything, you know, shout out,
reach out. I'm happy to help listeners. And of course
you bridget however, And I know you had written me
a note when the shit was going down, and I
appreciated that.
Speaker 5 (41:05):
That stuff goes a long way.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
So if you see everybody else going through stuff, be
an active online bystander, you know, report stuff, send them
a note of solidarity.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
All of it matters.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, I think that's such good advice because I think
these kinds of attacks, they are meant to make the
person feel isolated, and so just knowing that, like I'm
not isolated. People see what's happening to me and they
support me is so key and it's interesting. I was
at this gathering for people who work in the conspiracy
theory space, and one of the questions that they asked
(41:38):
early on was, you know, what are some of the
particulars of doing this work?
Speaker 4 (41:43):
And almost everybody.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Said some version of my partner, my friends don't really
get what I do, and so I am carrying around
a lot of like very specific baggage that the people
around me can't even necessarily really unpack, understand or even
really see. And I really felt that it was like, yeah,
you are dealing with some particular stuff that is so
(42:07):
specific and can be so heavy and ugly and hard,
and you're sometimes just dealing with it in a way
that feels like you're alone.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, and even when people do reach out, you know,
and this is not their fault at all, but like
still to this day, people will say to me, you know,
I'm so sorry for what you're what you went through,
or like back when it was all happening, they'd be like,
is there anything I can do, And like the answer
is no. For the most part, Like with the exception
of your close friends just like coming by with food
(42:37):
and like trying to take you out of it watching
some trashy TV or something like that. Like there's not
much that people can really do besides listen, and even
then you're talking to them about it, and all they
can do is like not and pat you on the
back unless they've gone through it too. And so again
that's why those very specific networks of super online people
(42:57):
were really important to me when the when it was
all kind of happening. But that also brings me to
another important point, which is therapy is so important. Without
my therapist, I definitely would be kind of lost, and
she has done the really important kind of reminding me that,
(43:20):
like what you went through is not normal, and it's
okay to still feel kind of shitty about it, and
no one's expecting you to have recovered from it already,
Like you're still allowed to have feelings about it and
be mad about it and be sad about it and frustrated.
And that's been really important. And I have a whole
section in my book about like the role that that
(43:43):
has played. Again even before the worst harassment that I've
dealt with, and some resources for folks who maybe can't
afford therapy because it is the way our insurance system
works here is totally stupid and like paying out of
pocket is ridiculous and difficult. But if your insurance doesn't
cover it, there are options for you. If you're on
a campus, A lot of universities have good mental health services.
(44:05):
A lot of states also have either groups that you
can go to or like low cost therapists you can access,
and then a lot of therapists have sliding scale fees
as well, so that folks who are on lower income
can can can access those services. And it's I think
it's really important, and there's this stigma around accessing mental
(44:26):
health services, but push yourself to to get over that
that hurdle because it's a great resource.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
To have, absolutely And I guess that brings me to
one of my last questions of like you deal You've
dealt with.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
A lot, You deal with a lot. What keeps you like?
Speaker 1 (44:44):
What brings you joy? What makes you happy? How do
you how do you reconnect with Nina and recharge?
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Like what what? What does that cups for you?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
That's a hard one because my life has changed so
substantively since all This happened like literally for weeks, three
weeks before I gave birth, as like when I resigned
from the government. So I'm a totally different person, not
just because of like my entire life outlook changing, but
because I'm a mom now, so like hanging out with
(45:14):
my kid, love that and it truly is a life
changing experience to like be the sole.
Speaker 5 (45:22):
Source of food and.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Like protector of another human being. I'm really lucky to have,
you know, a great husband who is an amazing dad
and has been an amazing partner through like something he
definitely did not sign up for when we got married
ten years ago, that is for sure.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
So spending time with them has been great.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Connecting with nature so I love hiking, and I've just
started getting back to hiking post pregnancy, so getting back
outdoors has been great. Travel really kind of fills my
cup and like experiencing different perspectives. I'm also a huge
music fan and theater fan, and that has been somewhat
(46:04):
dampened during the pandemic because of large gatherings, and I
haven't been able to do a show since since pre
pandemic and probably won't happen for a while now that
I have a young kid, but you know, enjoying the arts,
experiencing that connecting with other people that way, I think
is something that's so special. And that's also you know,
(46:26):
not to bring it back to the abuse and make
it sad, but that's one of the things that's most
peculiar about like the abuse against me, people saying like, ah,
she's a theater kid, as if like I'm sorry, is
that a crime? Like Also, musical theater is one of
our like uniquely American exports, right, like it's it's a
way that America contributes to.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
Culture around the world.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
And I don't know, how are these people seriously telling
me they've never enjoyed a musical in their life if so,
like whatever, like.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Oh, musical theater kids like like theater kids, the world
go around. If we didn't have theater kids, it wouldn't
be joy in the world. Thank God for like enthusiastic
like young people who enthusiastically enjoy things and make things.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
And you know what, like.
Speaker 11 (47:11):
It's it's I'm tired of this like narrative that it's
uncool to be happy or enthusiastic about something like yeah,
I'm a nerd and I'm like totally okay with that.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
We should all wear that proudly. Some people nerd out
about cars. I nerd out about lyrics from musicals and
and music, and like, you know, every to each their own.
That's the beautiful thing about America, right And so anyway,
I've gone off on a tangent now.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
But those are the things that that keep me, keep
me happy.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Also, like I do identify with what Hillary Clinton said
in about the worst times of her life, where she
just she focused on the work. And so I have
been absolutely wholeheartedly, probably too much, throwing myself into the
world since I've been back from maternity leave, and I'm
really committed to building a better Internet, whether that's an
(48:05):
Internet free from disinformation coming from Russia or an Internet
that's free from nasty abuse coming from right and frankly
some far left wing men on the internet.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Well, I'm so grateful that we have you in this work.
I'm glad that you seem.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Like you're doing that.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
You've got that, You've got your people, you've got your community,
because the Lord knows we need you especially right now.
Speaker 5 (48:27):
Well, thank you, Bridget.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
You know, I think you got me on a slightly
more optimistic sunny day.
Speaker 5 (48:32):
There are definitely days where I'm.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Dropping f bombs left and right and hate everyone, but no,
I'm here. And my message to everybody who's going through
this or might go through this at some point is like,
don't give one inch.
Speaker 5 (48:45):
Back, and I'm not giving an inch. I'm going to
go a mile ahead.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Though Nina filed her defamation lawsuit against Fox News last Wednesday,
she can't get back what they took from her, but
maybe her lawsuit and others like it will change the
math for big networks that traffic and lies and disinformation.
Thanks for listening to the first episode of Present Future,
brought to you by There No Girls on the Internet.
(49:08):
Next week, I'll be interviewing author, activist, and og Twitter
personality Mickey Kendall, who built her platform on the early
days of Twitter. We talk about what it was like
back then, how it changed, and where she sees the
Twitter community going in the future. And I have to
make one more plug for the Patreon. I'm really excited
to use it as a way to connect with all
of you and to share exclusive interviews and writings with
(49:30):
the patrons who support the show. Just go to patreon
dot com and search for there or No Girls on
the Internet, and as always, I would love to hear
from you at Hello at tangoti dot com. Let us
know what you thought of today's episode and what kind
of stories that you'd like to hear during the rest
of this season as we investigate this weird present future.
(49:50):
There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
me Ridget Codds. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed
Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If
you want to help us grow, rate and review us
on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out
(50:11):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
We are back for a brand new season of their
No Girls on the Internet. I miss talking to you
all so much, and since we've been on hiatus, I'm
pretty excited for a new way to stay in touch
on Patreon. Over on our new Patreon, you can get
even more bonus content and just generally support the work
that we've been doing with the show. So if you
like what you've been doing and want to hear more
or just support the show, consider subscribing. You can find
(00:23):
that at patreon dot com slash tangody that's Ta Nngoti,
or just search for There No Girls on the Internet.
On Patreon, there's exclusive audio, exclusive writing, and a monthly
live chat with me.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Bridget.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I wanted to start the Patreon to open up new
ways to connect with all of you, so I hope
you'll join me there and help us shape the direction
of the show. I'll see you over on Patreon.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right, a young
woman who has authentically lived her life on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
On the Internet.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
In this brand new season that we're calling Present Future,
we're looking to what's next, the future of tech, the
future of discourse, the future of platforms, and the future
of us. But we're starting in kind of a familiar place.
We've already spent a lot of time talking about disinformation,
and I usually ask experts one question, So when you
think about the direction of our media ecosystem and disinformation,
(01:43):
are you hopeful, Like when you look on the horizon,
are you hopeful about what's next when it comes to
the future of combating disinformation. More and more we're seeing
some targets of particularly heinous disinformation campaigns using the judicial
system to fight back. Egene Carrol successfully sued former Present
sident Trump for defamation after he claimed that her allegation
(02:03):
that he sexually abused her was a lie. It wasn't,
and a jury ruled against him, and Carol has said
that she may even sue Trump again because Trump doubled
down on that defamatory lie in a disastrous CNN town
hall the very next day after that ruling, and after
Dominion Voting Systems sued Fox News for falsely claiming that
(02:25):
its voting machines through the twenty twenty election, Fox settled
for seven hundred and eighty seven million dollars, pretty much
acknowledging that the network promoting lies about the election in
twenty twenty was defamatory, and now a new defamation lawsuit
against Fox News may provide a signal about the future
of telling lies for profit. Last year, one of the
(02:45):
nation's leading disinformation experts, Nina Jenkowitz, was appointed by Biden
to head up the Disinformation Governance Board within the Department
of Homeland Security to learn about and counter disinformation. And
immediately afterward, Nina and her family were targetd with lies, threats,
and harassment Paul while she was pregnant. Days ago, Nina
(03:05):
filed a defamation lawsuit against Fox News. Could this be
the blueprint of how we curbed disinformation in the future.
Shortly after Nina was named to the Governance Board, I
was scheduled to interview her about her book, How to
Be a Woman Online, which chronicles online harassment. But we
couldn't because Nina had to retreat from public life after
(03:26):
the harassment campaign against her got so bad. And strangely enough,
Nina isn't even the first person that I've had to
navigate interviewing while they were basically off the grid because
of threats, and the continued sting of being silenced and
not getting to do her work because of lies and
threats was looming large when I finally did get to
speak to Nina. So the first time that you and
(03:48):
I were supposed to talk, it'd were not able to
do the interview because you were at the target of
some pretty nasty, heinous harassment. So I have to start
by just asking how are you.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I am doing.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Okay now, Bridget, thanks for asking.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I mean, it is difficult to recover from something like
what happened to me, which kind of upended.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
My entire life and the career plan I had.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
And just kind of the short version the TLDR of
what happened to me is I was appointed to a
position in the Biden administration to work on a working
group that was meant to kind of bring together bodies
within the Department of Homeland Security that were working on
counter disinformation. That working group was misconstrued in the press
and mostly the right wing press, as a ministry of
(04:34):
truth that was going to have the power to censor Americans.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Of course, we had no such power. Operationally.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We had no power, we had no full time staff
except for me, and no budget. So I don't know
where they thought we were going to do all.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
This, but at any rate, it was totally misconstrued.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
My personal life and like my online presence and all
sorts of things got dragged through the mud. I was
eight and a half months pregnant at the time, and
I ended up leaving the department, and not because of
the harassment, really, but because the department wasn't sticking up
for me or for the work, and they ended up
disbanding the working group and saying there was no need
(05:10):
for it, which I think is laughable at best. And
so since then, I obviously have my baby, I've been
kind of taking some maternity leave, taking time with my family,
and have kind of been recalibrating what it is I
want to do and how I want to show up
and like make an impact in the world. And after
my unfortunate experience with public service, it's kind of bringing
(05:33):
me to the conclusion that, like, really the work that
I want to do has to happen from outside of government, at.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Least right now, at least with this administration.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Wow, you know, I where do I even start.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I'll say, it's something interesting to me that you wrote
a book about how you survive online harassment as a
woman and found yourself and a really weird time in
your life like at the target of that, And it
reminds me a lot of like what I know about
things like reputational smear campaigns, where it's interesting to me
(06:10):
that like the administration did not support you. It would
have been I would have expected they obviously respected your
leadership enough to give you this position and then to
turn around and so quickly distance themselves from you is
really telling to me. And I think that's one of
the ways that reputational smears work. They want the target
(06:32):
to feel isolated, and they want to make it seem
that if somebody sticks up for them that will be
a bad look for them. So rather than supporting you,
they just are like, oh, that's just distance.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I do have to say, I'll give credit where credit
is due, you know. Secretary Mayorcus went on the Sunday
shows and called me like an eminent expert, and Jen
SACKI had some talking points to say at the White
House podium about me.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
But when you're confronting.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
The entire gop lie and rage machine just not enough.
Like I was on every I think seventy percent of
Fox News hourly segments for like an entire week, and
it continued for two weeks after that too. Like everyone
was like, Oh, it'll go away, don't worry about it.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
It didn't.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right, a young
woman who has authentically lived her life on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
It's easy to think of people who work on issues
like disinformation as uptight skulds. It's actually a misconception that
I've encountered a lot in my work. But Nina's vibe
is really lively and full of energy, and it lends
itself perfectly to a platform like TikTok, where she made
a cute video of her singing in a Mary Poppin'
style about disinformation. Nina loves musical theater. Now, this is
(07:42):
the kind of thing that anybody might try to do
to connect on their issues with a new audience. But
if you were watching Fox News, you would think this
was criminal. They played Nina's TikTok over and over again
and turned it into an attack, not just an attack
on Nina's work, but on Nina as a person.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
Part and grief feminist part. Frustrated karaoke singer Jankoitz is
the last.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
Person who should be trusted with distinguishing between fact and fiction.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Like there are videos of me performing musical theater people
like to make fun of that. I had a TikTok
video where I was like trying to connect with a
different audience by doing a parody of a Mary Poppins song.
It was very tongue in cheek and very deliberately silly
and campy, and everyone was.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
Like, oh my god, this is so cringe. It's not
fucking cringe. I'm sorry, it's not cringe.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
It's exactly what I wanted it be, and I'm I'm
not embarrassed of it at all. Frankly, Like Tucker Carlson
kept playing it over and over on his show, and
it's like, thanks Tucker, Like now more people have heard
me sing than I could ever.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Have hoped for in my entire life. But but what.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
You say is true, Like I think like I wasn't
close enough for the administration for them to want to
stick their neck out for me, and the work clearly
wasn't important enough for them.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
To like risk everything for it.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
And that's disappointing because what is more the core of
our democracy right now than how our body politic deals
with information, right or disinformation, frankly, And so that was
really disappointing. And it was also disappointing because the Biden
administration made such a big deal about hiring women and
people of color to political appointments and to the cabinet,
(09:20):
and it's like, Okay, if you're above a certain level,
they're gonna they're gonna go to bat for you, but
not if you're you know, at the level that I am, which, frankly,
you know, for the amount of attention that people paid
to me, you'd think I was like God. But I
was just a GS fifteen, which is like a high
ranking but not Senate confirmed appointee in Washington, with very
(09:42):
little decision making power.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I wasn't like, you know, all powerful in DHS. I
had a lot of layers above me, which you know,
is illustrated by the way that the whole thing was
rolled out. If it had been rolled out more transparently
the way that I had kind of asked for within
the department, I wouldn't have been in as bad a
situation as I read.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Let's take a quick break at her back.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Long ago and what seems like a distant, bygone era.
We used to say that you should ignore bullies and
they'll just go away, but it doesn't really work like
that when it comes to disinformation. Nina was facing an
onslaught of lies and attacks during her time at the
Biden administration, and she wasn't even allowed to speak up
for herself and correct the record, so the only messages
about her that were out there were smears, lies and attacks.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
They wouldn't let me, you know, speak up for myself,
which again, if I were above a certain level, I would.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Have been able to do that.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
So the whole thing was frustrating, and it also just
kind of goes to show that, like there's a lot
of work left to do in our institutions, not just government,
but you know, in journalistic institutions, et cetera, for sticking
up for people who are on like the public facing
side of things, especially women and people of color who
receive such outside harassment online and in real life as well.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, I mean, I to prepare for this interview, I
watched some of the clips, like interviews that you gave
on shows, and I'm not going to say any names,
there was one I was like, this guy is basically
being like I heard this lie about you thoughts, and
it was like, yeah, it's not true.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
You know, Like, I definitely think.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That It kind of bumps me out that media, the
people that we ostensibly should be able to count on
to help people discern the truth, really don't feel any
obligation to do that. They and in some cases they
inflame the tensions and lies and give them more oxygen
and allow them to spread when they should be in
the business of truth spreading and debunking. You know, I've
(11:57):
seen people say things like, oh, this board was going
to have the ability to like control what regular people say,
And I've also seen you in interviews be very clear
that if that were the case, you wouldn't be on
that board because you deeply opposed that, Like, yeah, we're
not trafficking in truth and honest statements. We're trafficking and
lies and smears, and it's we're not going to get
(12:18):
anywhere if that's how we continue to do discourse.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was so one of the
worst days was when I woke up, and.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
I mean, it was just like three weeks of hell.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
But I woke up one morning when I was still
at the department and Bill Maher had on his show
the night before just spread an absolute, complete piece of
bass about me.
Speaker 7 (12:41):
The tizarre a Nina Jenkowitz says, she's like some committee
there within this governing board with the power to quote,
edit Twitter and add context. Oh you mean, like what
Twitter is?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
That's what Twitter is.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
When SRI says something you own content.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
Yeah, these are not people in our.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Government, Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
An anonymous account online that had been for weeks going
through like all the videos of me ever posted to
the Internet. They had taken a clip from a conversation
that I had with a bunch of librarians in the
state of Georgia, and it was back from January twenty
twenty one. They had taken it completely out of context
and made it seem like I had had kind of
(13:29):
floated this idea of editing people's tweets, but what I
had actually done, and if you watch the entire kind
of conversation, it is clear someone asks me, Hey, Nina,
I just heard about this thing on Twitter called bird Watch.
Can you tell us about it? And for your listeners
that might not know. Birdwatch is a program that allows
(13:51):
people to add context to things that are trending on Twitter.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
So like, let's use Ukraine as an example in the
UK war.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
If people are claiming something that's trending like Russia was
responsible for this attack or Ukraine was responsible for this attack,
people who are you know, trusted individuals can get access
to this Birdwatch platform, which is now since then open
to everybody, and just add some context and say, okay,
here's a link to a news article, here are the
(14:21):
facts in this scenario. It's kind of like a built
in fact checking platform.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
I was not.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Super familiar with it at the time, but I was like,
I don't like this because I don't want users to
be kind of the ones that are doing Twitter's work
for it. And I had this long, involved, nuanced answer
that I went on for five minutes. He chopped one
minute of it up, and I assume it's a man,
because let's see honest. Yeah, so I don't know because
he is anonymous, but I think it's a man. He
(14:47):
chopped one one part of it up and just put
in his tweet Nina wants to edit your tweets, and
this one absolutely viral.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
Reputable reporters were being like, what if this is true?
Speaker 8 (14:57):
Blah blah blah, and then Bill Maher, without any to
fact checking whatever, it, goes to his huge audience on
his late night show and says Nina Jenkwitz and the.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
Disinformation Governance Board want to.
Speaker 9 (15:10):
Be able to edit your tweets, and it's just like,
first of all, it's a stupid idea, like no, I
would never ask for that, and second of all, like
it's not no one tried to do any bit of.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Fact checking at all. If you follow the video.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Back to where it came from, you can find out
that actually, that's not what I said at all. And
it was not just Bill Maher, but other journalists who
who frankly, were just recycling this disinformation and not doing
their due diligence at all.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
And it is disinformation, right.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Disinformation just isn't about cut and dry fakes or falsehoods.
It's about misleading information. And there was a lot of
misleading information presented about me. In fact, I just got
some more abuse and threats this week because somebody on
Fox mentioned me, and I was like, huh, what's this uptick?
About and I found that Greg Gutfield had talked about
me in a segment recently, and so one person wrote
(16:00):
to me on Facebook and said that I should be
thrown in jail for spreading lies about President Trump.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
It's like, it's.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Interesting how they want to censor me, right, but they're
not okay with other people censoring them. And that's never
what I wanted to do in the first place. It's
just so cecuitous and crazy. Anyway, I'll stop digging now, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Mean, does it do you find that it comes in
waves like that where it the harassment sort of stops
and then somebody will mention you and then you're like, oh,
an uptick and then down tick?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Is that is that kind of how it trends?
Speaker 5 (16:28):
Oh, one hundred percent?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
And it's always interesting to find out what the kernel is.
So like, for the first probably seven weeks or so,
it was just pretty constant, especially the first three weeks.
It was just constant messages, constant dms, constant tweets, people
trying to friend me on Facebook and Instagram and whatever.
I had to lock my Instagram and Twitter accounts because
there was personal stuff on there that, like I was
(16:51):
comfortable with like the level of public figure miss that
I had before people seeing that, but now with people
doxing me and calling my mother and sending me letters.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
To my home, like not as comfortable.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
So there was that, But then, you know, the craziest
thing was the culpability that I think.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Some members of Congress have.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
And I actually wrote a letter to Josh Holly and
Chuck Grassley because they continued this kind of or like,
continued perpetrating this harassment of me, and I felt like
calling them out for it because as members of Congress,
particularly as senators, they're supposed to be like.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
The more serious, deliberative body.
Speaker 10 (17:32):
Right here's Josh Holly, and your priority is setting up
a board and hiring someone who has gone to TikTok
to talk about stopping speech she doesn't like, who has
mocked voters supporters of the last president. That has been
your priority. To say that your priorities are misplaced, I
think is a dramatic understatement. And the time has come,
(17:54):
I think, mister secretary, for you to resign.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And Josh Holly on July eighteenth, so two full months
after I had resigned to the day from DHS, he
brought me up in a hearing on drones. For some reason,
there was an acting assistant secretary from DHS who I
used to work with, who was there, and he spent
half of his time, half of his allotted time, questioning
(18:18):
her about my hiring two months after I had resigned,
rather than talking about you know, unmanned aerial vehicles.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Right. And so I was just.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Incensed by this because it matched with an uptick and
harassment I got. So I sent them a letter, I
posted it publicly, and both of them just doubled down
on it. Rather than saying, you know, we're sorry for
the harassment that you and your family are getting at
this like, you know, special time in your life. I
had a six week old at the time, right, We're
sorry for this harassment. We're going to condemn the people
(18:49):
who have been sending you threats. We're going to continue
our oversight duty as senators, but we're going to pull
back from like our focus on you. Instead, they both
doubled down. And so I think this is a really
sad kind of situation that we find ourselves in America,
where there are people who are again supposed to be
setting the tone and example for the way our discourse
(19:12):
works who are tacitly, if not overtly and deliberately engaging
in harassment campaigns against people on the other side. These
things have life or death consequences. And I'm not the
only one to have gone through this stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
We see senators in the GOP endorsing like libs of
TikTok or whatever, and those people are literally like engaging
in stochastic terrorism campaigns that are about.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
To bubble over into real life.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Right, They're going to have real life consequences for trans
people and in some cases already have. We're just in
this really precarious situation and I feel like we need
some accountability and it's just not happening.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I don't know what it's going to take.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
We've gone through a pandemic that's had public safety consequences
for the nation. We've gone through, you know, in an surrection,
we've gone through protests that have been based on to
some degree disinformation where that have bubble up into clashes
that have killed people.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
And thinking of Kenosha, right.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And like, what's it going to take before we come
to our senses and either elect people who care about
the truth or like start to have some laws governing
what you say online the same.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Way that we do on the street.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I think people forget that free speech in America is
not absolute, right, Like, if people were saying these things
to me or to anybody who gets harassed online on
the street, you'd be able to get out of a
restraining order out on them, you'd be able to call
the cops. But the Internet is like this ungoverned and
ungovernable place, and I think that's that's kind of scary,
(20:47):
given how much we live our lives on the internet
these days.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, I mean I think about this all the time
of like what is it going to take? What do
you think is the answer to that question, Like do
you think that anything would rise to the level where
people will be like, gee, we need to do something.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I thought that maybe we were having that call to
action moment last fall when Francis Hogan released her whistleblower
documents and there were these, you know, series of hearings
on the Hill and people were so shocked about everything
that she was saying that it was confirmed. You know,
this is what was happening to children, This is what
was happening to different populations around the world.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
This was what was.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Happening to women, and then you know that just kind
of fizzled out, like maybe it moved the needle. Maybe
maybe senators now and members of the House are a
little bit.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
More wise to what was being said.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And she did come from a non partisan perspective, which
I think was important to kind of diffuse the polarization
of this debate, which shouldn't be polarized at all. Right,
this is not a polarization issue. This affects human beings,
that affects our democracy, no matter what political party are from.
But there doesn't seem to have been kind of that
(21:59):
momentum filled there. And I hope that we can pick
that back up, But after my experience, I'm pretty pessimistic, right, Like,
it is really depressing to me that millions, literally millions
of my fellow Americans have come into contact with me
and been told to hate me because I'm young, female
(22:19):
and had the goal to take a job in my
area of expertise trying to help my country.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Right, I was not motivated.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
By politics and taking that job, And in fact, prior
to everything that happened to me, I used to say
I would take a job working for a reasonable Republican
who wanted to work on the issues that I wanted
to work on, whether they were, you know, Russia or
something about disinformation online.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
I don't think I could say.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
That anymore with a straight face, right, because of the
lengths they went to ruin my life, and that was deliberate, right.
You said something about smear campaigns before it was explicit
that people were saying, we want to make her toxic
to the bidenmane, and I just think that's that's really
(23:04):
it's un American, frankly. So I don't know what the
answer is to your question, bridget I think I think
we're in a really bad situation, and I don't know
what it's going to take, and I.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Fear what it's going to take to wake everybody up.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Do you think that you would have gotten the same
level of hate and targeted violence like online violence against
you had you been a man?
Speaker 4 (23:28):
No, I think not at all. I have to imagine no.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
No, right, because like, first of all, even I think
Tucker Carlson even said something point blank like it's it's
like Taylor Lorenz and the Nina Jankwitz is of the
world that I hate the most, like educated white women
who think that they educated young white women who think
that they can tell us what to do or something
like that, And it's like, I'm not telling you what
(23:52):
to do, but the fact that I exist and that
I'm like putting myself into a sphere that you existed
is what bothers you, right.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
So no, there's that part to it.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
And then the fact that I'm I was young and
also pregnant, Like people talked about my my family.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Status constantly on Fox.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
They said things very famously about like how could Biden
hire her when she's about to go on maternity leave?
And it's like, because it's against the law to discriminate
against some money because of their their their parental status,
not to mention that.
Speaker 5 (24:26):
Like there was the opposite.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Side of the coin, with people saying like how could
anyone impregnate her? Or like I bet she's infertile after
this one, Like it was just like why.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Is this even something that anybody's talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
And men absolutely never get that stuff, and in fact,
if they're found to be cheating or philandering, like they're
celebrated for that. And plus you know, there was the
stuff about my looks and weight gain during pregnancy. Men
were like enlarging pictures of my chin, which had some
pregnancy acneonic.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
God forbid, it's not something you can really control.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
They were talking about my weight gain, like then after
I gave birth and the New York Times took a
picture of me for an article they did. The first
thing a couple of guys said was that I had
big boobs, and it was.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
Like, well, yeah, I'm breastfeeding right now. One guy actually was.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Like, imagine if what she did with those boobs was
I think they used a different word obviously, was feed
children instead of spread lies.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And it's like, oh, funny, you should mention that. But
it's just like a man would never write.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And they say all the time, oh, we get the
same sort of stuff, and it's like, no, like the
worst sort of sexualized something that somebody could call you
as a dick, right, and that's not so bad. It's
certainly not calling you Joe Biden's cum dumpster, which is
one of the many things that people have said to me.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Yeah, it's so upsetting.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And I also feel like when it comes to women,
when women are harassed, it's not just them, it's their partner,
it's their mom, it's their kids. It's it's her family
and the people around her, And so what.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Adds this extra layer of.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I don't know if that's something you have to think
about where it's like, well, do I really want to
engage in like this public line up work because I
don't want my partner to be harassed, don't want my
kids to be targeted.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
And a lot of the women that I've interviewed in
the course of my research for my book, as well
as the research I've done on women in politics, they
bring that up a lot, especially women of color. So
for women of color, often what will happen is they'll
get docks more frequently than white women, or their families
will be threatened. So one woman in a focus group
(26:37):
that I did was, I mean, this just really stuck
with me.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
She said, you know, we don't.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
We will often get messages that say, oh, we don't.
We hope your son doesn't end up like Trayvon Martin or.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
And it's just like, I mean, especially as a mom,
but I hope that that resonates with anybody, Like it's
clearly a threat.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
Number one and two, Like, what a horrible thing to say.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
It's just like layers of on layers of intersectional abuse,
and that's where the platforms I think really fall short.
They'll see something like that and AI certainly won't understand
the intent behind that.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
And even if you write a little note.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
To Twitter or to Facebook and say like, look at this,
this is racist, violent threat, they're not gonna take it
down because it's not. It doesn't say like explicitly I
want to come kill your son, or I hope someone
comes to kill your son.
Speaker 10 (27:35):
And.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I mean, I think we have a long way to
go there, and certainly as women, as you say, it's
not just us, it's our families. It's like I had
to call up, you know, my brother who shares a
last name with me, and hope and say, you know,
I hope that the boys, your sons have their social
media profiles locked down. Like what a heartbreaking conversation to
have to have with a bunch of teenageers who probably
(28:00):
want to do the exact exact opposite. You know.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
More, after a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I keep reading these articles about how historic numbers of
women and women of color and black women are running
for office, which is great but I know the reality
is that they have to have this extra layer of consideration,
not to mention extra expense of thinking about you know,
online and digital security in these ways and in real
(28:43):
life security in these ways.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
And it really do you feel like we're in a
situation where that is just the cost of wanting to.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Be in public service for these folks, Like we're just like,
oh yeah, like you have to factor that in when
you if you want to run for office or be
a pub but you're really dingaged in civic life and
civic discourse.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Unfortunately, it is the cost, but it absolutely should not
be the cost.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
That should not be normal.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
We shouldn't just roll over and say if you're a
woman or a woman of color, or disabled woman or
a trans woman in politics that were in public life
written large, that you have to spend all this extra money.
I mean, let me just list a couple of the
things that I pay for. I have an anti dooxing
service that scrubs my personal information from the Internet and
(29:32):
that of my family.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
That's a couple hundred dollars a year.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I have When we had to upgrade our home security
after everything happened, because again we were doxed. If we
ever decide to move from the house that got doxed,
we'll have to probably pay a lawyer to put our
home in.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
A trust so that that doesn't happen again. Let's see.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I also pay for block Party, which if your listeners
haven't it is a really good tool for basically anybody
dealing with online abuse. It will auto mute people interacting
with you, and you can have kind of different levels
of sensitivity for the replies that you want to get through.
On Twitter, you can also block people if they've liked
(30:16):
or retweeted in abusive or threatening tweets.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
So as a result of using.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Block party, I've I've blocked cool White a few people
because I don't want to. I don't frankly want to
interact with anybody who thinks it's funny to like delight
in one of the worst things ever happening to me. So,
I mean, already, that's like a couple hundred dollars a year,
and for freelance journalists or for people who you know
(30:43):
are working in nonprofit jobs or things like that. Even
government jobs, like the government certainly did not compensate me
enough for what I went through.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Let's just say.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Oh, and you know, I am lucky that I was
able to have enough savings to cover that stuff. But
there was a time not so long ago, a couple
of years ago, before my first book came out, where
like I wasn't paying taxes because I wasn't making enough
profit to be paying taxes, you know.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
So it's it's real.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Uh, the cost is real, and it is not fair,
and we need to make sure that, especially in journalism,
that when freelancers are being hired, that they're being compensated adequately,
and that they're covered legally by the publishers that they're
working for. That you know, any institution, be a academic, government, nonprofit,
(31:36):
et cetera, they're covering their employees as well.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Because the way that you.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Feel safe to speak up is knowing that people have
got your back, and they've got your back in a
material way.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Not just like you know, a philosophical way, like.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Of course we of course we should uh support your
right to a free speech, but when push comes to shove,
they're not gonna you know, pay for you to relocate
if you need to, or pay for a lawyer.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
All that stuff is super super important.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, that's something I see a lot of like particularly
in newsrooms where you know, if a young woman journalist
is being targeted or threatened.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I think that we're just starting to have a conversation
about how newsrooms can be supportive. But I think for
a long time it was just like good luck. And
also don't talk about it publicly because it will make
us look bad. So just suffer in silence and be
isolated and get no support and turn that shame inward
and we will continue.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
To function business as usual.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Like I think that, like what you said about cost
material cost is such a good point. And I think
back to like when I was a freelance journalist. I
made no money, right, I was like really barely getting by,
like scraping by, and to be expected to shoulder this
burden that my male white colleagues will never have to shoulder.
(32:58):
It's just not fair. It's not equitable.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
No, no, not at all.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
And like then on the government side too, going back
to the whole thing about like Biden, you know, making
it a commendable effort to hire people of color and
women into his administration. I think, and I've said this
to people in the administration since this happened to me, like,
not only do you need to be prepared to stick
up for those people, but you.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
There's probably some conversation that you need.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
To have with some people a certain level or above
saying like, Okay, here's the types of things that might
happen to you, Like let's make sure that you are protected.
Let's make sure that you can put in a registration
or a like deregistration request to the county to get
your name off of the documents for your house because
you're a public official. Now, like yes, in my mind,
(33:46):
did that think? Did that cross my mind as like
something that might happen? Sort of, I hoped that it wouldn't.
I didn't think it was going to be as bad
that as it was. But like probably everybody in our
polarized environment who's going into government should get at that
kind of council, anybody going into public service, not just
at the federal level. I mean, look what's happening to
(34:06):
election workers, right. It's the sad truth of the time
that we live in and the tactics that people are
using to try to get their way. But it takes
a toll, and like without loved ones, without friends who
have been helping me go through my replies and like
helping me keep track of the mentions of me on
(34:29):
alternative news streams and things like that. I mean, I
don't know what I would have done, probably just like
completely retreated from the online space. And that's exactly what
it's meant to do, right, It's meant to push us out,
to silence us, and I'm not going.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
To let that happen. I'm glad there are people around
me who don't want that to happen to me. But
not everybody has that. Not everybody has.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
That monetary psychological support that is so critical to getting
through these difficult times, and they're happening to more and
more people.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's great to want to elect women, support women, hire women,
but you also need to be honest about what those
women will face and have an understanding of what you're
going to do to create the conditions for that woman
to thrive, because it can't just be like, yeah, support
black women, yes, like more women this and that, but
then like, once they get to the place that you
(35:20):
champion them to get to, they are on their own
for this highly charged attacks that they will face because
they got to this position that you said that you
wanted them to be in, Like it has to be
a fuller conversation about what it looks like.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, I I don't know what I.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Say this a lot like in future positions, whether they're
in public service or not, Like when I'm being interviewed, what.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Will I say? Like will I be like?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
And if X, Y, and Z happens, what are you
guys going to do? Like I feel like I'm going
to run this trust deficit for the rest of my life.
And I don't know that a lot of organizations are
going to have a good answer. But like in good conscience,
go into that sort of environment if I don't feel
either like I've got somebody supporting me or a group
(36:08):
of people supporting me, or am I going to have
the authority to be able to make the decisions that
will create those like support systems for other people?
Speaker 5 (36:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And it's hard for me also to encourage young women
to go into public service after what happened to me.
I've been giving them the advice like, if you want
to do it, you should do it, but just recognize
what's in the realm of possibility.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Unfortunately, so speaking of that, you know, the book How
to Be a Woman Online. What advice do you have
for women who are just trying to exist on the internet.
You know, you mentioned earlier in our interview that you
were really attacked for being a woman who has lived
your life and had social media the way that we
(36:55):
all have, and they created a cost for that. They
dinged you for doing something that in twenty twenty two
we all do. And so I guess my question is, like,
what kind of advice do you give for women listening
who want to participate in civic and public life are
also on women online?
Speaker 4 (37:14):
You know?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
What do you say?
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Yeah, it's a really delicate balance.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
So I've interviewed people who run the gamut of like
they've kind of kept a lot of their personal stuff
off the internet, to like people like me who are
super super online. Right, And I still have no regrets,
Like I again that TikTok video, still not embarrassed of
it to this day. The things that people were making
(37:41):
fun of it.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Did numbers like You're like kind of prolific on TikTok.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
I had to log it down.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Now I don't even do it anymore, But I'm trying
to get into Instagram reels.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
It's hard. It's hard for a millennial like me. I'm like,
what is this? But you know, like.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
I don't regret any of it, but I also recognize
that it's not for everybody, and so I think there's
a delicate balance.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
You have to draw that line for yourself.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
The thing that I encourage everybody to do is, no
matter how you're gonna interact online, to understand what's going
to keep you safe tech wise and opsec wise. So like,
don't post pictures of you in front of your house
or like at the bar you frequent, right Like, it
is so easy for bad actors to geolocate you. Look
(38:30):
what happened to Keffle's where she was docks a second time,
just based on the pattern of the hotel sheets to
the hotel she had fled to with her cat, Right Like,
we have to be extraordinarily careful. But if you're posting
things not in real time, like have a little bit
of a lag, If you're not posting from the same
location and giving away like clues to your pattern of life,
(38:54):
that's that's much better online practice for pictures and videos
and things like that. When it comes to it, security
just a couple of easy fixes that are kind of
set it and forget it for everybody. Make sure you
know you're using two factor authentication, complex passwords, and a
password manager. If you're traveling to dangerous countries like authoritarian countries,
(39:16):
basically you'll probably want to have like a burner phone
or a burner laptop to make sure that your comms
are secure.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
Using a VPN is a good idea.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
When you're on you know, more open Wi Fi and
on your home network. Things like that I think are
just really important for people who might be targets of
hacking or other kind of cyber harassment issues from doxing
to cyber stocking. All of that's super important for you
(39:46):
to keep in mind. And that knowing that I have
that extra layer of security like makes me feel more
empowered to speak out. And then beyond that, cultivating a
network of people who get what you do and who
you can go to when the going gets tough, and
that's harder than it seems. The first time I dealt
with online harassment, which admittedly was nothing compared to what
(40:08):
I went through this spring, a lot of my friends
and family didn't get it right, Like they were like, ah,
just ignore the trolls, don't feed the trolls, don't go
on Twitter. And I'm like, but my life and my
work is on Twitter, right, You're basically asking.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
Me to not work and not put myself out there.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
And I think once they understood that, then I had
a little bit more support. But frankly, the people that
I rely on most when this stuff is going on
are the super online writers and folks who are kind
of in my sphere that understand how this stuff works
and so cultivate that.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
Community for yourself. I think that's.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Paramount, frankly, and I hope that everybody's able to do it.
And if you ever need anything, you know, shout out,
reach out. I'm happy to help listeners. And of course
you bridget however, And I know you had written me
a note when the shit was going down, and I
appreciated that.
Speaker 5 (41:05):
That stuff goes a long way.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
So if you see everybody else going through stuff, be
an active online bystander, you know, report stuff, send them
a note of solidarity.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
All of it matters.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, I think that's such good advice because I think
these kinds of attacks, they are meant to make the
person feel isolated, and so just knowing that, like I'm
not isolated. People see what's happening to me and they
support me is so key and it's interesting. I was
at this gathering for people who work in the conspiracy
theory space, and one of the questions that they asked
(41:38):
early on was, you know, what are some of the
particulars of doing this work?
Speaker 4 (41:43):
And almost everybody.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Said some version of my partner, my friends don't really
get what I do, and so I am carrying around
a lot of like very specific baggage that the people
around me can't even necessarily really unpack, understand or even
really see. And I really felt that it was like, yeah,
you are dealing with some particular stuff that is so
(42:07):
specific and can be so heavy and ugly and hard,
and you're sometimes just dealing with it in a way
that feels like you're alone.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, and even when people do reach out, you know,
and this is not their fault at all, but like
still to this day, people will say to me, you know,
I'm so sorry for what you're what you went through,
or like back when it was all happening, they'd be like,
is there anything I can do, And like the answer
is no. For the most part, Like with the exception
of your close friends just like coming by with food
(42:37):
and like trying to take you out of it watching
some trashy TV or something like that. Like there's not
much that people can really do besides listen, and even
then you're talking to them about it, and all they
can do is like not and pat you on the
back unless they've gone through it too. And so again
that's why those very specific networks of super online people
(42:57):
were really important to me when the when it was
all kind of happening. But that also brings me to
another important point, which is therapy is so important. Without
my therapist, I definitely would be kind of lost, and
she has done the really important kind of reminding me that,
(43:20):
like what you went through is not normal, and it's
okay to still feel kind of shitty about it, and
no one's expecting you to have recovered from it already,
Like you're still allowed to have feelings about it and
be mad about it and be sad about it and frustrated.
And that's been really important. And I have a whole
section in my book about like the role that that
(43:43):
has played. Again even before the worst harassment that I've
dealt with, and some resources for folks who maybe can't
afford therapy because it is the way our insurance system
works here is totally stupid and like paying out of
pocket is ridiculous and difficult. But if your insurance doesn't
cover it, there are options for you. If you're on
a campus, A lot of universities have good mental health services.
(44:05):
A lot of states also have either groups that you
can go to or like low cost therapists you can access,
and then a lot of therapists have sliding scale fees
as well, so that folks who are on lower income
can can can access those services. And it's I think
it's really important, and there's this stigma around accessing mental
(44:26):
health services, but push yourself to to get over that
that hurdle because it's a great resource.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
To have, absolutely And I guess that brings me to
one of my last questions of like you deal You've
dealt with.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
A lot, You deal with a lot. What keeps you like?
Speaker 1 (44:44):
What brings you joy? What makes you happy? How do
you how do you reconnect with Nina and recharge?
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Like what what? What does that cups for you?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
That's a hard one because my life has changed so
substantively since all This happened like literally for weeks, three
weeks before I gave birth, as like when I resigned
from the government. So I'm a totally different person, not
just because of like my entire life outlook changing, but
because I'm a mom now, so like hanging out with
(45:14):
my kid, love that and it truly is a life
changing experience to like be the sole.
Speaker 5 (45:22):
Source of food and.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Like protector of another human being. I'm really lucky to have,
you know, a great husband who is an amazing dad
and has been an amazing partner through like something he
definitely did not sign up for when we got married
ten years ago, that is for sure.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
So spending time with them has been great.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Connecting with nature so I love hiking, and I've just
started getting back to hiking post pregnancy, so getting back
outdoors has been great. Travel really kind of fills my
cup and like experiencing different perspectives. I'm also a huge
music fan and theater fan, and that has been somewhat
(46:04):
dampened during the pandemic because of large gatherings, and I
haven't been able to do a show since since pre
pandemic and probably won't happen for a while now that
I have a young kid, but you know, enjoying the arts,
experiencing that connecting with other people that way, I think
is something that's so special. And that's also you know,
(46:26):
not to bring it back to the abuse and make
it sad, but that's one of the things that's most
peculiar about like the abuse against me, people saying like, ah,
she's a theater kid, as if like I'm sorry, is
that a crime? Like Also, musical theater is one of
our like uniquely American exports, right, like it's it's a
way that America contributes to.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
Culture around the world.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
And I don't know, how are these people seriously telling
me they've never enjoyed a musical in their life if so,
like whatever, like.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Oh, musical theater kids like like theater kids, the world
go around. If we didn't have theater kids, it wouldn't
be joy in the world. Thank God for like enthusiastic
like young people who enthusiastically enjoy things and make things.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
And you know what, like.
Speaker 11 (47:11):
It's it's I'm tired of this like narrative that it's
uncool to be happy or enthusiastic about something like yeah,
I'm a nerd and I'm like totally okay with that.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
We should all wear that proudly. Some people nerd out
about cars. I nerd out about lyrics from musicals and
and music, and like, you know, every to each their own.
That's the beautiful thing about America, right And so anyway,
I've gone off on a tangent now.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
But those are the things that that keep me, keep
me happy.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Also, like I do identify with what Hillary Clinton said
in about the worst times of her life, where she
just she focused on the work. And so I have
been absolutely wholeheartedly, probably too much, throwing myself into the
world since I've been back from maternity leave, and I'm
really committed to building a better Internet, whether that's an
(48:05):
Internet free from disinformation coming from Russia or an Internet
that's free from nasty abuse coming from right and frankly
some far left wing men on the internet.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Well, I'm so grateful that we have you in this work.
I'm glad that you seem.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Like you're doing that.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
You've got that, You've got your people, you've got your community,
because the Lord knows we need you especially right now.
Speaker 5 (48:27):
Well, thank you, Bridget.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
You know, I think you got me on a slightly
more optimistic sunny day.
Speaker 5 (48:32):
There are definitely days where I'm.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Dropping f bombs left and right and hate everyone, but no,
I'm here. And my message to everybody who's going through
this or might go through this at some point is like,
don't give one inch.
Speaker 5 (48:45):
Back, and I'm not giving an inch. I'm going to
go a mile ahead.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Though Nina filed her defamation lawsuit against Fox News last Wednesday,
she can't get back what they took from her, but
maybe her lawsuit and others like it will change the
math for big networks that traffic and lies and disinformation.
Thanks for listening to the first episode of Present Future,
brought to you by There No Girls on the Internet.
(49:08):
Next week, I'll be interviewing author, activist, and og Twitter
personality Mickey Kendall, who built her platform on the early
days of Twitter. We talk about what it was like
back then, how it changed, and where she sees the
Twitter community going in the future. And I have to
make one more plug for the Patreon. I'm really excited
to use it as a way to connect with all
of you and to share exclusive interviews and writings with
(49:30):
the patrons who support the show. Just go to patreon
dot com and search for there or No Girls on
the Internet, and as always, I would love to hear
from you at Hello at tangoti dot com. Let us
know what you thought of today's episode and what kind
of stories that you'd like to hear during the rest
of this season as we investigate this weird present future.
(49:50):
There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
me Ridget Codds. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed
Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If
you want to help us grow, rate and review us
on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out
(50:11):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
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