September 30, 2025 • 50 mins
Wellness influencers are perfecting the art of turning pseudoscience into profit. Whether they're selling supplements, offering classes, or just chasing engagement, an army of wellness grifters has weaponized mistrust of institutions and Big Pharma, peddling false health claims that trick people into treatments and practices that are ineffective at best, and in some cases outright dangerous.
Last week the Trump administration claimed without evidence that Tylenol during pregnancy causes autism. The science is clear that it isn't true, but that didn’t matter. Doctors pushed back, but the damage was already done—because wellness influencers pounced. They didn’t just spread the fear, they profited off it. And suddenly, one of the only safe pain relievers for pregnant women became the latest weapon in a war over women’s health. Once again, Trump and RFK Jr are playing disingenuous, dangerous political games with women's health and wellbeing.
This isn’t just about Tylenol. It’s about how wellness influencers turn misinformation into a business model—and how their influence helped shape a dangerous narrative straight out of the White House.
Mallory DeMille, content creator and correspondent on the podcast Conspirituality, has been pushing back against these dangerous grifters with hilarious videos and posts that make fun of their most ridiculous claims. Do yourself a favor and follow her on Reels, Threads, and TikTok at @this.is.mallory and on YouTube at @MalloryDeMille.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. When the
Trump administration claimed that tilernol during pregnancy could cause autism,
the science really didn't matter. Doctors pushback, but the damage
(00:27):
was already done and wellness influencers had already pounced. They
didn't just spread fear, they profited off of it, and
suddenly one of the only safe pain relievers to take
during pregnancy became just the latest weapon in a war
over reproductive health. Now, this is not just about tilnol.
It's about how wellness influencers turn a misinformation into an
(00:48):
online business model, and how their influence helped shape a
dangerous narrative coming right out of the White House. It's
something Mallory de Mille has seen a lot of. Mallory
makes content about the health and wellness industry. She's a
correspondent on one of my favorite podcasts, Conspirituality.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm Malorie de mill and I guess the title I
would use is content creator create content on Instagram and
TikTok that talks about influencer culture, specifically in the wellness space.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Nobody skewers the wellness influencer grift quite like you. You're
such a good social media.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Follow Thank you so much for saying that.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
So how did this come to be something that you
pay attention to? Why are kind of wellness influencers on
social media? Why is that your beat? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I think the short answer probably is that I used
to follow willness influencers. And granted this was, you know,
almost a decade ago. I was in my mid to
later twenties, and I was following a number of wellness influencers.
After I completed business school, I went to college for
fitness and health promotion. Thought it one day, I would,
you know, combine those passions and open my own gym
(02:00):
and come to fruition. But have always been pretty interested
in health and wellness myself had a background in teaching fitness,
and I was definitely following a number of wellness influencers
for a few years there and realized at one point
that following them had nudged me in a direction of
having like a pretty terrible relationship with food and fitness
and my body that was like not really there before.
(02:23):
And so luckily, you know, unlearned and unpacked that many
of books and documentaries and resources and following other folks online,
and I was mostly just really upset that as someone
with the background in marketing, I got swindled by really
clever marketing. And I guess I'm in a place right
now where I always come back to creating content that
(02:44):
I wish there was more of when I was following
those influencers.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I do think that there is a misconception that people
who call out wellness scripters and these these influencers don't
care about fitness or don't care about health. You your
way through this was caring quite a bit about health
and fitness, and.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I still do. I think, you know, I think that
these wiless influencers that I cover in a lot of
ways and like not in other ways, we actually have
more in common than I think they realize. I love
working out, I love going to the gym. I cook
most of my own meals. I diffuse essential oils. I
just don't think they cure cancer. And I have often
described myself as like an evidence based wellness curly as
(03:26):
opposed to a wellness curly, lower case wellness as opposed
to upper case wellness.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh we are in the same sort of then diagram
because I love a lot of woo woo stuff that,
but I have a sense, you know, if I had cancer,
I would not turn to homeopathic cures or remedies, right
I would. I would, I would do what my doctor
said to do. And I think what you just said
is so interesting of you can, like essential oil, just
(03:53):
don't just don't think that they're going to cure cancer,
and then don't make money telling people that they maybe cann.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And I always like to make very clear too, like
I am someone in a fairly like privileged position in
a lot of ways, one of being that I have
never experienced or had to navigate a diagnosis or chronic illness,
and I don't know how like that path may have changed,
you know where I find myself right now. I do
see in my own work, like a lot of the
(04:22):
folks who are really keen to take advice and buy
products from these wallness influencers are in a space like that.
And so I do think that, you know, there is
a space where I think we're all like a little
bit susceptible to something like that. If we're like in
a vulnerable enough or like desperate enough place. But yeah,
my approach to wellness right now is very skeptical, incredibly skeptical.
(04:43):
And it makes me a bit sad seeing all this
like anti even anti wellness stuff, because I'm like, well,
this is great, and I love aspects of wellness, and
there's all these influencers that I think are ruining it
for everyone.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Oh that's such a good point. And you know, I'm
bram the same Instagram. I'm sure that you're Instagram algorithm
might look like mine. So often I think that the people,
oftentimes women, who are representing wellness, it's a particular kind
of woman, right, conventionally attractive, very fit, thin. I do you,
(05:16):
is there something where what they're actually selling is not
just the idea of being healthy and well, it's an
entire lifestyle and identity that comes along with it that
if you just buy this supplement or just do this
thing that they're doing, your life can look like my life,
which is which comes off as very idealized.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, I think like the lifestyle marketing aspect is beyond
wellness influencers. I know it's fairly popular in multi level
marketing advertising as well, from influencers about like look at
this lavish lifestyle that I have, and then the reality
is that they're kind of unfortunately living paycheck to paycheck
in that business model. I also really love the motto
or the phrase of your body is not your business card.
(05:56):
And so this idea of you know, not you using
your body to market particular supplements or like anything, really
because there's a huge component of like genetics, and you
don't actually know what someone's lifestyle is like they could
be actually very sick and you don't know that. And
so I think it goes back to that whole piece
of like social media being a highlight reel, and unfortunately
(06:18):
a lot of social media right now is just direct
advertising and anything that might impact someone's bottom line, they're
probably not going to share that.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Why should you care what wellness influencers are hawking on
social media? This vast network of health and wellness personalities
is increasingly stewing people toward extremist ways of thinking, and
they're making a fortune doing it. All about putting people's
real health at risk. Why do you think what's happening
in this sort of wellness content creator influencer space. Why
(06:50):
is it important to be paying attention to yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
The I would say, like, we are carrying around these
influencers in our pocket all day, and there's so much
Can I swear on this podcast? Can I say there's
so much shit online? Absolutely? Okay, there's so much. You
can keep that in. There's so much shit online these
days that I think this is so important to pay
(07:14):
attention to. From just like a media literacy perspective of
you know gone, I think are the days of when
I first downloaded Instagram in twenty thirteen, where we were
sharing square photos with really terrible filters, just like about
our life. I think a lot of these social platforms
are propped up by like a financial funnel now, and
(07:34):
so just knowing that you're carrying that around in your
hand and in your pocket or in your purse all day.
And I also think it's important to pay attention to.
Like I mentioned before, I think anyone is susceptible to
these things, and I think with specifically with wellness influencers
quite different than someone who is for example, I don't know,
like an your interior designer influencer, your influence to buy
(07:57):
a particular I don't know, like blanket or vachure, like
while art or something like that doesn't really impact you
beyond like a financial aspect, really, But when it comes
to wireless influencers, there's the financial component, of course, but
there's also like they are playing with your health and
your body and your perception of your health, and I
think that makes the wellness space the crossover with wondness
(08:20):
and influence her culture like quite remarkably different.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Oh my gosh, I'm glad that you said this, because
I do think there's this attitude that none of this
stuff really matters. That these health decisions and health choices
that folks are making that they're being kind of prompted
to make through these influencers. They don't even know that
it's the same kind of decision as buy this couch
or don't buy this couch. These decisions can be life
(08:45):
or death. Just look at Ananda Lewis. Ananda Luis on
MTV was one of my idols growing up. She got
to talk to young people about news and real issues
on MTV and I basically just wanted her job. She's
probably one of the reasons why I host this very podcast.
Years later, Ananda's mother was diagnosed with breast cancer. Her
(09:07):
mom went through mammogram after mammogram, and those screenings do
involve some radiation, and yet her mother still developed breast cancer.
So Ananda came to believe that the mammograms themselves caused
her mom's cancer. So in Ananda's own doctors recommended regular mammograms,
she refused, and by the time Ananda's own breast cancer
(09:27):
was discovered, it was far more advanced and if she
had just had the mammograms. And the irony is that
once she was diagnosed, she ended up undergoing pet scans
and other procedures that exposed her to even more radiation
than the mammograms would have. Ananda followed a lot of
wellness claims, like that your body can heal itself through
things like cold plunges and diet alone. When her doctors
(09:50):
recommended a aseectomy to treat her breast cancer, Ananda once
again went against their advice, choosing instead to pursue alternative
healing and ridding her body of toxins. She told People Magazine,
my plan was to get excessive toxins out of my body.
I felt like my body is intelligent. I know that
to be true. Our bodies are brilliantly made. Ananda died
(10:12):
of breast cancer earlier this year, and she left behind
a very young child Before she died. She made a
video reflecting on those choices, saying that she regretted not
listening to medical science and warned others not to follow
her path. In her own words, she said, I decided
to keep my tumor and try to work it out
of my body a different way. Looking back on that,
(10:33):
I go, you know what, maybe I should have. I
don't know if you're familiar with the mtvvj Ananda Lewis,
who passed away recently of breast cancer. I was very
moved by her story, and one of the things that
she said was that she regretted not listening to medical
science and following the guidance of the actual trained health professionals. Instead,
(10:57):
she really thought, oh, I can cure things on I
own through diets, through homeopathic remedies. And I think that
there's this attitude that I'm just this is just a
personality branding thing. I do my own thing, and part
of that is not listening to doctors when in reality
it is life or death. Because she passed away from
(11:20):
cancer which would have been treatable had she listened to
her doctor, and she really was open about regretting that fact,
regretting the fact that she listened to people who maybe
didn't actually have her real life and her real health
at the forefront of their minds.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Absolutely, And I often get asked like so what, like
so what somebody wants to buy supplements, like why do
you care so much? And my response is usually I
think that the best case scenario is that someone just
wastes their money. The worst case scenario is that something
actually impacts their health in a really negative way, or
they're influenced by following particular people online to forego evidence,
(12:00):
evidence based treatment when it's really needed. And unfortunately, like
you just mentioned this one particular story, there are more
and more stories like this coming now out now and
like making it to the headlines. And it's so unfortunate,
and I don't want to see any more of these stories,
but I think we will, And all we can do
is like just amplify them and show them that this
(12:21):
is actually the real harm of what's happening here.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
How did we get to a place where folks are
more comfortable taking medical advice from some influencer on Instagram
rather than an actual medical professional.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I think there's probably a few different things from my
own observations and like my own brain here, but I
think first and foremost, there is like a fairly I
think warranted distrust or like complicated relationship with conventional medicine
or like western medical doctors. In a lot of the
work that I do in observing the wellness space, there
(12:54):
are predominantly women sharing stories about how they were dismissed
by their doctors. They're said were not taken seriously, and
it was that that prompted them to seek out alternatives.
And so I do think there are gaps in medicine
for sure, Like I don't think anyone who is critical
of the wellness space would deny that. I just think
(13:15):
that these wellness influencers, they will tell you that they're
filling those gaps, but my view is that they're actually
exploiting them. And so I think that's one piece of it.
And I think another piece of it is if you
are navigating something and you go to your doctor and
they're talking to you based on evidence and statistics and probability,
(13:37):
and there's no one cure or like one piece that
will fix everything that makes you feel a particular way.
But then you go online and there's an influencer that
is speaking in absolutes, where like medical profession very regulated
can't speak like that, wellness base unregulated can speak like that.
(13:57):
And so if an influencer is telling you that they
like for sureseys you know, have this cure that will
help you, you're probably more inclined to go with them.
I also think too, and I hear this a lot
from you know, again, predominantly women. They're like, well, you
only get fifteen minutes with your doctor, which I don't
know about you, but that's true for me, Like I
only get fifteen minutes with my doctor, but they frame
(14:20):
this as a negative. That's also if you have access
to a doctor in the first place. But these you know,
alternative practitioners or influencers will give you much more time
and they will claim it's because they care about you
more and they will, you know, help you. They will
offer to you what will help you, like for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And I think that goes back to what you were
talking about earlier. Off especially if you're vulnerable, or you're
going through something, or you're navigating a health challenge or
trying to navigate a health challenge on behalf of a
loved one, you are in such a susceptible position. I
very recently was caring for my dad before his death,
and it was this issue where he had several chronic
(15:01):
health issues and he was host like long term hospitalized
for many months, and the doctor twice a day, the
doctors would do their rounds and come into the ICU
room and like talk to me about what was going on,
and they what I First of all, what I wanted
if those doctors had spent two hours with me, that
would not have been enough time. What I wanted was
(15:22):
doctors to come in, hold my hand and say, we
have figured it out. It turns out it was this
one easy thing and he's one hundred percent going to
be okay. But I never goot that. What I got
was fifteen minutes of very good you know, no shade
to the doctors, they were great, but fifteen minutes of
being like, oh, well, you know, we asked this problem
and that problem and this problem and jargon and words
(15:45):
and me having to be like, stop, back up, what
does this mean? And it was an incredibly frustrating experience,
and in that moment of vulnerability, had an influencer online
said I hear you, I see you. The answer is
this miracle cure in your dad is going to be fine.
I would have absolutely been susceptible to that. It is
that that experience has really showed me how these influencers
(16:07):
are so good at targeting the very real vulnerabilities that
really do exist in.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
US vulnerabilities and also specifically like right now with tail
and all being in the news, but I also had
a project earlier this year in January with the fires
in La. Wiless influencers are incredibly skilled at leveraging tragedy
or crises, whether that's like a personal tragedy, so like
(16:33):
you just said, when you're personally like very vulnerable, you
or a loved one are navigating something or perhaps a
community tragedy, so the city that you live in is
on fire. And in that experience or like that, at
that time, I was watching observing willless influencers just ready
to pitch you their supplements and detoxes for like, if
(16:54):
you live in La and you are, you know, breathing
in this air, you need to detox and yours a
discount God for twenty five percent off. And so I
think they are very good at leveraging those feelings around things.
And I also think for listeners and maybe you have
seen the show as well, The Apple Cider Vinegar on Netflix.
(17:15):
It came out this winter. I think that experience that
you just described of, you know, this hypothetical alternative practitioner
or influencer coming in versus an experience with the Doctor.
I think that show did an incredible job depicting those
differences for anyone who's familiar with the show. It's based
on the true story of Bell Gibson. But I think
they did a really good job. Even like you know,
(17:37):
the scenes with the Doctor, there is like this blue
kind of like filter over top of it. I thought
they did a really good job.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Are you very institutional, very cold?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yes? Yep, that very like quick timely turned around. That's
just the reality I think that a lot of people have.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Let's take a quick break at our back. Let's talk
about what RFK Junior called his big autism announcement last week,
when the Trump administration announced that taking thailanol during pregnancy
(18:19):
causes autism. As soon as the administration went public with
this claim, wellness scripters were already on it, hockeying supposed
thailan al alternatives and supplements online. So you mentioned thailanol,
and the Trump administration, as we know, is saying, oh,
we've unveiled the cause of autism, and it's Thailand all
(18:39):
taking Thailand al while pregnant. Something that you really were
on is how these grifters were so on it. People
already had their a supplement. It's like, oh, here's if
you're not taking thailol anymore, because you're not, you don't
want your kid to be autistic, Good on you, mama, bear,
take my supplement. How were they on it so fast?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's practiced like it's it's I think it's like rinse
and repeat every single time. There is something that feels
similar to this, where there is a headline that stokes
fear and they have something to sell you. So you're right, Like,
within a day I saw influencers selling various supplements, some
that are involved in multi level marketing companies, whether that's
(19:24):
like alternatives to tile and all that they just so
happen to have a discount code for which makes me
leave me there. It's so convenient. There's always a financial incentive,
it seems, or you know, using a bit of mental
gymnastics to somehow promote their supplements that maybe aren't alternatives necessarily,
(19:44):
but you still need them in this case. Like it's
so quick, and I wasn't even surprised at this point.
I was just honestly just waiting for it.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
For so long. These influencers have been saying, you can't
trust the FDA, you can't trust the government. But then
they turn around and say, oh, the government just just
pointed out this link to tailant all and autism. I
take I take that to the bank by my supplement.
If you're gonna avoid tilt all. What's going on there?
Like that? Does that seem like a switch up at all?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I've seen it before. I mean, I think with the
tail and all thing too. I've seen a lot of
these influencers be like, well, the study was from Harvard,
and I'm like, I have a hard time believing that
you would take on, you know, belief with every other
study that has come out of Harvard, and so why
is it this particular one that you're so passionately defending.
(20:36):
I also find it really interesting, you know a few
years ago, in observing these Wallness influencers, they had this
motto of I don't co parent with the government, and
they even had like a bunch of merch made and yeah,
and the Mama Bears I don't co parent with the government.
And now I just sick. Kind of seems like they're
(20:59):
really keen to co parent with the government, and I'm like,
where's that merch gone? Like what are we doing here?
So yeah, I think that like their switch up is
pretty predictable. A number of years ago, I was tracking
influencers who were selling a frequency medicine device through again
(21:19):
a multi level marketing company, and one of their pieces
of marketing in promoting that opportunity and that device was
that it was FDA cleared, which is obviously different than
FDA approved, But they were using that as a proof
point of why you should buy it. But then on
their own socials, like within the same day, sometimes they
would turn around and make a video talking about how
(21:41):
you can't trust the FDA, vaccines, masks, all this kind
of stuff, and it's like, but just a second, you
just used the FDA to promote this thing you're trying
to sell. So I think it will always be confusing
and self serving.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, the FDA is good when it benefits me in
my marketing. It's bad when it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's literally always what it is.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And about that Harvard study, I wanted to bring in
our producer, Mike, because Mike is a scientist.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah, you know, I'm not a medical doctor, but as
a scientist, I did want to weigh in about the
quality of that piece of alleged evidence from Harvard that
the administration and MAHA people keep pointing to to support
these dubious claims about talentanol and autism. For one thing,
it was not a new study out of Harvard. It
was a review paper, which will be fine. There's nothing
(22:29):
wrong with the review papers, except this one has been
criticized for leaving out important studies. The senior author, doctor
Andrea Baccarelli, who is dean of faculty at Harvard THH.
Chan School of Public Health, has previously been paid to
testify in support of an association of talent al with autism,
(22:50):
and so the review has been criticized both for its
methodology and for having that conflict of interest. But even
if we set those concerns aside, the paper itself does
not claim that Thailand all causes autism. I think this
is an important point for this piece of evidence that
is supposed to be supporting that because it doesn't say that.
It goes out of its way to not say that.
(23:12):
It reports finding an association, which is very different from
a causal connections. You know, our listeners are pretty savvy folk,
and so I'm guessing they've heard the phrase correlation doesn't
equal causation, and I think that caution very much applies here.
There are many, many reasons that an association might exist
(23:34):
if it does other than a causal connection. And this
isn't just my opinion. I've seen a lot of takes
over the past week from important, respected public health officials
saying similar things. Tom Frieden, the former director of the CDC,
published a long post on LinkedIn reiterating that tailand all
is safe. The balance of evidence suggests pretty clearly that
(23:55):
it is. Doctor zay and Lu, professor at the Yale
School of Public Health, gave an interview in which he
reiterated that there is no proven causal relationship between tail
and all and autism, and so the balance of evidence
is pretty clear here. And it's really unfortunate that because
the author of that one review paper is from Harvard,
(24:17):
it's giving the MAHA crowd license to run with the
Harvard name and make their unsupported claims seem weightier than
they are, even though they're claiming things that the study
itself does not say. And it's also unfortunate that that
same researcher has taken payment for his testimony, because that
raises questions, I think about the independence of the research
(24:39):
and potential conflict of interest. Did he really need the
money that badly? You know, I don't know. But the
whole thing fits awfully, neatly into this same pseudoscience grifter
model that we've been talking about. Sometimes it feels like
the grift goes all the way up. And again, I'm
not a medical doctor and this isn't my area of expertise,
(25:00):
but as a researcher and a consumer of science, I
wanted to offer that perspective and just make sure that
all of our listeners know that the vast majority of
people who are medical doctors and who do specialize in
this topic agree that tail and all is safe.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And it goes back to what Mallory was just saying
about how association with an institution like Harvard or a
study or something like that, it's good when it benefits me,
but other times, oh, you can't trust those institutions, they
don't know what they're talking about. You going to trust
the government totally.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And I also think too like a part of this
now playing into like the social media and the technology part,
Like we're living in an age where your belief systems
are broadcast online for everyone to see, and oftentimes these
influencers have thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands, up to a
million followers, And I just all I think about sometimes
(25:57):
is like, how hard would it be for you to
admit that you were wrong or that you changed your
mind when you have all of these folks following you
and paying you in a lot of ways? Probably, And
it reminds me of something that I read in a
book called How to Talk to a Science Denier by
Lee McIntyre, which I recommend, love, I love it and
I always recommend it. But he talks about this idea
(26:19):
of asking someone about any particular belief that they have,
what information would make you change your mind? Because if
the answer is nothing, first of all, you're about to
have a very unproductive conversation. But like, second of all,
what does that say to you about your belief system
that if nothing could change your mind? That sounds pretty
(26:39):
closed minded and just not I mean, like I see
things through like evidence and science and really support that,
and other people don't. And I understand that. But I
just think in terms of like having a conversation with someone,
especially me and my comment section, like just getting a
gauged for like good faith conversations. I always like to
(27:00):
start with something like that because if the answer is nothing,
then I don't really know what we're doing here.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You know, when you post your content on social media
about the wellness space, what kind of conments are you getting?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
You know, It's funny. I've been creating content for a
few years now. My following has grown. I actually got
a lot more pushback and hate when I had an
incredibly small following, like less than five thousand followers than
I do now. Sometimes I'll have videos end up on
the wrong side of the algorithm, and that will elicit
(27:33):
what I think are a lot of like bought comments,
because they're all the same. They hate my dangs, they
hate my nose ring, I have tattoos, I have pronouns,
I look vaccinated. It's predictable. It's all the same stuff,
and it's nothing that I don't already know about.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Myself, but I know I have beags.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, I got them trimmed. I know that I know
I have my nose ring. I paid for that, and
so it is one of those things where I think
the algorithm is driving alive.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Now.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I also know, because I have my followers send me
videos that I cannot see, that I have been preemptively
blocked by a lot of influencers who I've never heard
of before. And so I think there was probably some
sort of Mallory memo that went around continues to go
around at some point.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Pretty?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Like not terrible?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
To be honest, I was gonna say, you're like the
like Omar from the Wire, but for the wellness space
of like watch out for Mallory. If she gets you,
she's gonna blow your cunt up and point out all
the ways that it's a grift.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I also, like have rarely had folks who I have
included in my videos have a what I would describe
as a productive conversation, like I'm not going to make
a video unless it's like pretty. I feel pretty good
about it, and there's not a lot of wiggle room
for you know, them to be like, actually, like, I
will collect content and feel really good about something before
(28:57):
I publish it to the Internet, and so oftentimes if
those folks come across my content, I think they just
block me. I don't think that they engage in conversation
or try to. Very often, I have gotten a lot of,
you know, very empty legal threats where they're like, that's defamation,
and I'm like, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
When the Trump administration announced that kilol during pregnancy was
supposedly linked to autism, pregnant women pushed back hard because
here's the thing right now, thy lil is pretty much
the only safe option for pain relief during pregnancy. It's
what doctors recommend. So of course women started speaking up.
They were saying, look, I'm going to keep following the
advice of my doctor, and I'm going to take tilamal
(29:39):
for pain if I need it. But here's where the
social media outrage machine kicks in. That very reasonable, measured
pushback suddenly gets spun into something kind of wild online.
It morphed into this completely fabricated story that pregnant liberal
women hate Trump and RFK Junior so much they're filming
themselves overdosing on Thilo mal in mass just to spite
(30:00):
him and winding up in the hospital. Now that's not
really what's happening, obviously, But this is how misinformation spreads.
Take a kernel of truth, twist it, blow it up,
and suddenly becomes a viral culture war talking point. Do
you see outrage marketing or outrage culture and weaponizing and
sploiting outrage online as part of this, because sometimes I'll
(30:23):
see well, miss influencers saying things and doing things. I
think you are saying this because you want to get
people riled up, because you know that it's going to
have a positive impact on your engagement. Is this something
that you see it all while looking at this kind
of content.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yes, absolutely all the time. I mean, I have another
thing that I can talk about. But because Thailand All
is so topical right now, you may have seen there's
a number of conservative content creators who are outraged by
this Thailand All a TikTok trend where apparently pregnant liberal
women are guzzling Thailand All on TikTok as some sort
of gotcha to Trump and RFK Junior The Cut reported
(31:02):
and this is my own observation as well, that that's
not actually happening. There's a handful of you know, women
who are trolling on TikTok. It's the same I don't know,
like four to five tiktoks that these conservative content creators
are clipping, I think, and they're taking a single tile
in all on camera. And I just think that if
this TikTok trend was actually happening where you know, pregnant
(31:23):
liberal women were taking Thailand all by the fistfuls, that
they would be including those videos instead. And I just
haven't seen them. And so you want to talk about
like driving engagement and outrage, I think that's a perfect example.
I have seen tenfold more videos in response to this
alleged trend than I have actual videos that would be
a part of this trend.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, not only would you like see more of those
women guzzling handfuls of fellow, but they would be showing
up in emergency rooms with like liver failure.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah. Well, there is a particular woman. She is the
founder and executive director of American Frontline Nurses. She is
alleging that she received a phone call about, oh, these
redoces are happening and people are in hospitals. I have
not seen any reporting on this, and I think that
if it was inspired by a TikTok trend, Unfortunately, like
harms from TikTok trends, fatalities from TikTok trends has been
(32:13):
reported on before. Unfortunately, that's something that has happened, and
so you know, if this does get reported on, I
will eat my words. But for now, I haven't seen anything,
and I do think in my personal opinion at this point,
I do think it is to drive engagement and that
outrage aside from Thailand, although like I think another really
good example beyond outrage, I think algorithms really favor content
(32:38):
that is extreme, and so even in videos that I stitch,
there are certain videos that I come across where I'm like,
it doesn't even matter what I say or what I do,
this video is going to take off because what this
influencer has portrayed or said is so extreme. And I
think I've covered parasite cleanses before, and I think that's
a really good example of these folks who have these
(33:01):
cleanses to sell you. They can't just say take my
cleans and you'll feel better. They have to say you're
filled with worms. Everyone is it's the root of all disease,
and doctors are lying and the government is suppressing it,
and so you need to buy my tincture in detox
three to four times a year. And also, here's one
hundred photos of people's poop with like alleged parasites in them. Meanwhile,
(33:26):
medical professionals are coming out and saying, actually, like, those
aren't parasites. It's undigested food matter, maybe undetermined matter, or
also maybe the lining of your own intestines. But they're like, Nope,
it's worms. And the government's lying to us. And that's
the extreme claim that they use to push their supplements
because you can't really sell stuff being like I made
(33:49):
this thing in my back shed and I think it'll
make you feel better.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I also think there's just no comparison, Like the people
who are saying it's worms are definitely selling the more
compelling story. What what Like For sure, yeah, I could
sort of understand why, oh my poop looks like that
because I have undigested food matter in it maybe and
not because I'm actually full of secret worms. But government
is lying to me about I can understand why a
(34:14):
certain kind of person is always going to go with
the more compelling story.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, especially when they have something to sell and they're like,
I had no idea I had this many worms in me,
and like you probably do too, and here's my discount code.
Like there was one woman who was I think, financially
tied to a particular product that on its own website
does not describe itself as a parasite clons, but on
social media she would describe it that way, and she
claimed that in I think it was sixty days that
(34:41):
she shit out like eight hundred worms, And I'm like,
first of all, who is counting? Second of all, how
did you care? That works absurd? Like who is believed?
But people are believing it. And so I think there's that,
like the conspiracy element is compelling, and the you you
(35:01):
don't know this about your body, but I'm telling you
because I have privileged knowledge, Like that's really compelling to
There's also.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I think a little bit of like the truth is
in the middle here, Like oh my god, she's saying
I had eight hundred worms. That's probably extreme, but like
maybe I have two hundred that's still bad.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Mm totally yeah, And like also there's a weave of
truth in a lot of these wellness things, so they
parasites and worms exist for sure. I don't think anyone
is denying that they don't. But it's this idea that
everyone has them. It doesn't matter where you've traveled too,
and you're being lied to by the medical system, but
(35:37):
you can trust me a random woman on TikTok who
has a cleanse to sell you.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
And I do think that part of this is, I guess,
a reaction to feeling out of control, you know, I
if I I almost wonder if this is why RFK
when he first got into office, when it, you know,
is a big thing, was I'm going to eventually I'm
gonna do a countdown to what I unveil the cause
of autism. I feel like it's exploiting parents who have
(36:06):
concerns about their kid, right, and I wonder if those
parents feel out of control and so by telling them like, oh,
here's the thing, here is the thing that you need
to avoid, that will the old one hundred percent make
it so that you don't have to worry that your
kid might have autism? People are going to jump on that.
I feel like it's Oftentimes the causes of health issues
(36:27):
are systemic or institutional or we don't know a ton
about them, or they have no easy fix and that
people can just fill that fill that space with a
bunk because of it.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Totally. Yeah, I think well in terms of like the
autism announcement. I know, so I'm a correspondent for the
Conspiratuality podcast and after the election, the American election because
I'm Canadian and so I see all this like very
like just watch observing from the side. But after the
American election in November, we did an episode called Maha Mamas.
(36:58):
I was just looking to that, yes, and so it
was very much so You're right, like I think very strategic,
Like there are these mothers who are concerned, They are
you know, looking to RFK Junior. They like what he
stands for. They may have not voted for Trump otherwise,
but as soon as they you know, partnered together or
RFK Junior was endorsed, that pushed these women to you know,
(37:23):
maybe vote in that way. And I think it's a
lot easier to digest saying I'm voting for making America
healthy again than I'm voting for like the convicted felon.
So I think that that was these like very real
I think concerns that mothers have and questions and you know,
these things that they feel very deeply and are very valid.
I think that that was leveraged in a very strategic way.
(37:47):
And in terms of the out of control feeling, I
mean I only started really observing this space during the pandemic.
But you know, as someone with a fitness background, I
used to be a fitness instructor, these things were never
talked about in these spaces. It was just it was science,
like fitness and health is a science, and so that's
(38:08):
how we spoke about these things. And it wasn't until
the pandemic where I saw a number of my fitness
peers sharing conspiratorial content and I was like, what is
happening here and just seeing a lot of folks really
fall into conspiratorial thinking, I think as a result of
feeling out of control. And it's nice to have or
(38:29):
at length, to feel like you have knowledge and you
know what's happening for sure, and you know what is
causing what, even if that's not substantiated, it makes you
feel better and like in more control.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, I noticed the same thing. I mean, do you
think it was the feeling of lack of control? And
fear and not knowing what was going on that we
all experienced during the pandemic. Do you think that was
what was driving this change?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
I think a lot of it. Like in my own observation,
I'm like, they're so and again only started tracking for
my own content during the pandemic, and so I can't
really compare it to pre pandemic, But like it does
seem even just as someone who digests news and is
like on the internet every day, like it does seem
so much more amplified than it ever was. And I
(39:19):
think that there are folks even you know, that I
work with and they're like, oh, I don't need a
parasite cleanse, And I'm like, you're not someone who strikes
me as someone who would think that you do. And
I think that we're just in a place now where
we don't really know what to believe. There's so much online.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And the way that these algorithms get you when so
like I also like fitness, I enjoy yoga, I enjoy weightlifting,
and trying to use the internet to get information about
these two which should be like fairly commonplace interests. It's
like the algorithm says, oh, you're into weightlifting. Huh, you're
trying to eat more protein. Huh, well, certainly seed oil
it's got to get those out of the mix. Huh. Right,
(39:57):
certainly you don't want to be vaccinating your family.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
The way that when you just have this one interest
that whatever algorithm has decided, oh well, then you probably
feel x about seed oils X about vaccines. The way
it's sort of done as a digital package deal, I
think is really insidious totally.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
There's this phrase called crank magnetism, and it's this idea
that science deniers or conspiracy theorists often don't believe one
wrong thing, they believe many wrong things. And so if
you are already in the anti vaccine camp, you are
more likely to believe that sunscreen is actually causing cancer
(40:37):
and not the sun. And you are now also more
likely to like homeschool your children, and you are more
likely and like just it becomes like you said, a
package deal, where it's like you kind of believe this
one thing, and it's usually not just that one thing.
And especially when you're following influencers, like if you follow
a particular like homesteading influencer, because you have an interest
(40:58):
in that, you are now all of a sudden fed
you know, anti vax or you should be using tallow
instead of sunscreen stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Women are the primary health decision makers for their families,
and people like RFK Junior know it. That's why targeting women,
(41:29):
especially moms, with health misinformation is so powerful. Enter the
Mama bears, the moms who say that they are the
only things standing between their kids and industries full of corruption.
It seems to me that sort of the connecting thread
on some of this is, as you alluded to earlier,
not just women, but moms, Maha moms, they call themselves
(41:51):
mama bears. How has moms and motherhood? How has that
kind of been the Maha secret weapon?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Like when I did the Conspiratuality episode, it was really
just an observation of like how folks who were already
in the Maha sphere were calling on mothers to be
engaged and be interested and vote a particular way, and
so you know, they would never say it was strategic,
(42:20):
but it certainly was. Like in the episode, I referenced
RFK Junior's website and how he sold merch that referenced
like mahamas, mahammas. But there was no like dad equivalent,
like Dad's got t shirts about I don't know, I
forget now, but like probably not eating sale oil steak
in Tallo, yeah, make tallow Grady. I forget, but it
(42:40):
was probably something really ridiculous like that. And I'm like, oh,
it seems really intentional from a merch perspective anyway, which
maybe some might see as you know, not significant enough,
but I certainly do because merch now you can see
it as like identity. You wear it around, this is
who you are, and if you're wearing merch that says
maha mamas, that is who you're identifying as. And I
(43:02):
think so it was absolutely strategic I think on their
part to pull on mothers, and Kelly means even how
to tweet their references. In the episode where he calls
on mothers and a woman responds to him and says, well,
I'm not a mother, Like what did you mean by this?
And he's like, oh, nothing like It's like no, I
think it was actually something. It's just it would be
(43:24):
harder to digest if you actually called it what it was.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah, And I think you're so spot on that for
a lot of these people. I can't remember the I
that might have been the influencer. There's an influencer that
you that you hear from in that episode where she
talks about how, oh, generally I'm in the middle of
the road politically, and you might even say that I
lean more toward Democrats, but I am happy that Trump
is in the White House because I am I want
to make America healthy again. I am one hundred percent
(43:50):
on board for that. I do think that a lot
of these moms might have a harder time getting behind
somebody like Donald Trump, but then would say like, oh, well,
I didn't vote for all the trumpy stuff. I voted
for the health stuff with the RFK. Is that what's
going on?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
I mean, that's my observation for sure, and I certainly
think again, in my observation, there seems as time passes
to be a really big difference between upper case make
America healthy again and lowercase make America healthy like it's
a movement, not necessarily this like more of like a
conceptual idea of like there are My understanding is, you know,
(44:28):
there are folks who are always trying to make America healthy.
But it's this very particular politically motivated movement.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
And I will say thank god I listened to the
Conspiratuality podcast, because obviously there's nothing about this administration that
I'm that I am for. But I caught myself saying
the thing that some of those influencers say, which is, well,
I don't agreeing with the administration, but you know, there
are some things that RFK is trying to do that
I'm aligned with. And I said that about the ideas
(44:57):
of removing or banning food dies. Then I listened to
the Conspiratuality podcast about it. Come to find out, this
motherfucker it wasn't even a band. It was a how
did they put it, It was a voluntary understanding that
these companies were going to remove some dies with no
kind of enforcement mechanisms. And I'm saying, I literally from
(45:19):
my mouth, was like, well, this administration can't do anything right,
but at least they're trying to ban these food dies.
It was never even a ban. I cannot believe how
effective it was at getting into even the consciousness of
somebody like me who can't stand any of this administration,
that oh, well, there are some good things they're doing
that when you actually look at what they've done.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
It's actually a lot of smoke and mirrors, totally. Yeah,
and like I'm far from an expert on any of that,
but the creators that I follow who are experts, are
calling it just a mirror distraction from issues that really matter,
and a distraction so that you look away from various
cuts in funding that are happening in the same administration.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
And the ways that our health is being sort of
given over to Charlatan's and private companies that might have
friendly and cozy relationships with the administration. They made a
really good point. I swear I'll stop like plus plussing
the Conspiratuality podcast.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Conspirituality.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, it is one of my favorite podcasts, Like I
remember what you'd be listening to it, And I almost
never recommend other podcasts on this show because if if
you gave you open the door to that, I would
the whole podcast episode would be my rex. But if
there was one show that I would suggest folks listen
to you to understand this, it would be Conspirratuality and
the ways that like people who own private testing company
(46:35):
so you know it's so it's not me going to
my doctor or going to an actual clinic and getting
testing done, having that testing being covered by insurance and
all of that. It's no spend five hundred dollars out
of pocket for this private company that runs tests that
will tell you the same thing week. It won't that
my buddy owns all of that. I mean, I just
never realized how much all of this is just the
(46:57):
same old crony politics being repackaged as something that is
good for us.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
And I think that speaks to the very real gaps
in like the American medical system. And oftentimes I think
with those companies that you're talking about that conspiratuality often
talks about, is it's not just these tests that you
pay out of pocket for, it's also the supplements that
they recommend after that their own company owns.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Often Yeah, I mean, I guess my big question of
this is we are people who are health conscious. We
care about our health, we care about fitness and wellness.
I use guasha, I drink mushroom coffee, all kinds of
weird little things that I'm sure I'm wasting my money on.
I do and it makes me feel warm fuzzies, and
that's that. Are there ways to be interested in these things?
(47:43):
And into these things without it leading into a more dangerous,
sometimes extremistic pipeline, Like, is there a way to be
interested in these sort of alternative health practices but be
sane and safe about it, especially online?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's probably a lot of
folks out there who have tips on this, but like
my own opinion is just to like constantly be checking
in with yourself. There are people online who are acting
in various nefarious ways to get you to believe something.
Like I said before, you know, with certain other niches
(48:19):
of influencers, they do not need you to change your
entire belief system in order to influence you to buy something.
But the wellness space is encroaching more and more on
that where they're not just selling you brands, they're selling
you belief systems and so checking in with yourself. I
think it's totally okay to participate in things that you know,
(48:41):
like the mushroom coffee not totally my thing, but if
you like it, then why wouldn't you just do it?
That's fine, I think, but where did you hear it?
Who did you hear it from? What are your motivations
around continuing a particular practice? Is there a pipeline that
exists around this particular path that could have you going
further down into something.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
I know.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Derek Burris, who is one of the co hosts of
the Conspiratuality podcasts. He recently worked with The New York
Times on a video that talks about a funnel but
it is happening that they've identified where it takes someone
from being helf conscious, following these particular influencers all the
way down to rejecting medicine and holding this conspiracy theory
that the healthcare system is like knowingly harming people to
(49:28):
keep them sick and make money. And I think that this,
you know, video really depicts that well around like you
can have these like scrunchy I think that's a phrase
that's online where it's like kind of crunchy, these you know,
lifestyles and these practices and just checking in with yourself
around like how you might be falling down a particular
(49:50):
pipeline or funnel.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
just want to say hi, we just said hello at
tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's
episode at tengodi dot com. There are no girls on
the Internet was created by me bridget Tod. It's a
production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our
executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.
Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Todd.
(50:19):
If you want to help us grow, rate and review
us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts
There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. When the
Trump administration claimed that tilernol during pregnancy could cause autism,
the science really didn't matter. Doctors pushback, but the damage
(00:27):
was already done and wellness influencers had already pounced. They
didn't just spread fear, they profited off of it, and
suddenly one of the only safe pain relievers to take
during pregnancy became just the latest weapon in a war
over reproductive health. Now, this is not just about tilnol.
It's about how wellness influencers turn a misinformation into an
(00:48):
online business model, and how their influence helped shape a
dangerous narrative coming right out of the White House. It's
something Mallory de Mille has seen a lot of. Mallory
makes content about the health and wellness industry. She's a
correspondent on one of my favorite podcasts, Conspirituality.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm Malorie de mill and I guess the title I
would use is content creator create content on Instagram and
TikTok that talks about influencer culture, specifically in the wellness space.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Nobody skewers the wellness influencer grift quite like you. You're
such a good social media.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Follow Thank you so much for saying that.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
So how did this come to be something that you
pay attention to? Why are kind of wellness influencers on
social media? Why is that your beat? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I think the short answer probably is that I used
to follow willness influencers. And granted this was, you know,
almost a decade ago. I was in my mid to
later twenties, and I was following a number of wellness influencers.
After I completed business school, I went to college for
fitness and health promotion. Thought it one day, I would,
you know, combine those passions and open my own gym
(02:00):
and come to fruition. But have always been pretty interested
in health and wellness myself had a background in teaching fitness,
and I was definitely following a number of wellness influencers
for a few years there and realized at one point
that following them had nudged me in a direction of
having like a pretty terrible relationship with food and fitness
and my body that was like not really there before.
(02:23):
And so luckily, you know, unlearned and unpacked that many
of books and documentaries and resources and following other folks online,
and I was mostly just really upset that as someone
with the background in marketing, I got swindled by really
clever marketing. And I guess I'm in a place right
now where I always come back to creating content that
(02:44):
I wish there was more of when I was following
those influencers.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I do think that there is a misconception that people
who call out wellness scripters and these these influencers don't
care about fitness or don't care about health. You your
way through this was caring quite a bit about health
and fitness, and.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I still do. I think, you know, I think that
these wiless influencers that I cover in a lot of
ways and like not in other ways, we actually have
more in common than I think they realize. I love
working out, I love going to the gym. I cook
most of my own meals. I diffuse essential oils. I
just don't think they cure cancer. And I have often
described myself as like an evidence based wellness curly as
(03:26):
opposed to a wellness curly, lower case wellness as opposed
to upper case wellness.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh we are in the same sort of then diagram
because I love a lot of woo woo stuff that,
but I have a sense, you know, if I had cancer,
I would not turn to homeopathic cures or remedies, right
I would. I would, I would do what my doctor
said to do. And I think what you just said
is so interesting of you can, like essential oil, just
(03:53):
don't just don't think that they're going to cure cancer,
and then don't make money telling people that they maybe cann.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And I always like to make very clear too, like
I am someone in a fairly like privileged position in
a lot of ways, one of being that I have
never experienced or had to navigate a diagnosis or chronic illness,
and I don't know how like that path may have changed,
you know where I find myself right now. I do
see in my own work, like a lot of the
(04:22):
folks who are really keen to take advice and buy
products from these wallness influencers are in a space like that.
And so I do think that, you know, there is
a space where I think we're all like a little
bit susceptible to something like that. If we're like in
a vulnerable enough or like desperate enough place. But yeah,
my approach to wellness right now is very skeptical, incredibly skeptical.
(04:43):
And it makes me a bit sad seeing all this
like anti even anti wellness stuff, because I'm like, well,
this is great, and I love aspects of wellness, and
there's all these influencers that I think are ruining it
for everyone.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Oh that's such a good point. And you know, I'm
bram the same Instagram. I'm sure that you're Instagram algorithm
might look like mine. So often I think that the people,
oftentimes women, who are representing wellness, it's a particular kind
of woman, right, conventionally attractive, very fit, thin. I do you,
(05:16):
is there something where what they're actually selling is not
just the idea of being healthy and well, it's an
entire lifestyle and identity that comes along with it that
if you just buy this supplement or just do this
thing that they're doing, your life can look like my life,
which is which comes off as very idealized.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, I think like the lifestyle marketing aspect is beyond
wellness influencers. I know it's fairly popular in multi level
marketing advertising as well, from influencers about like look at
this lavish lifestyle that I have, and then the reality
is that they're kind of unfortunately living paycheck to paycheck
in that business model. I also really love the motto
or the phrase of your body is not your business card.
(05:56):
And so this idea of you know, not you using
your body to market particular supplements or like anything, really
because there's a huge component of like genetics, and you
don't actually know what someone's lifestyle is like they could
be actually very sick and you don't know that. And
so I think it goes back to that whole piece
of like social media being a highlight reel, and unfortunately
(06:18):
a lot of social media right now is just direct
advertising and anything that might impact someone's bottom line, they're
probably not going to share that.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Why should you care what wellness influencers are hawking on
social media? This vast network of health and wellness personalities
is increasingly stewing people toward extremist ways of thinking, and
they're making a fortune doing it. All about putting people's
real health at risk. Why do you think what's happening
in this sort of wellness content creator influencer space. Why
(06:50):
is it important to be paying attention to yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
The I would say, like, we are carrying around these
influencers in our pocket all day, and there's so much
Can I swear on this podcast? Can I say there's
so much shit online? Absolutely? Okay, there's so much. You
can keep that in. There's so much shit online these
days that I think this is so important to pay
(07:14):
attention to. From just like a media literacy perspective of
you know gone, I think are the days of when
I first downloaded Instagram in twenty thirteen, where we were
sharing square photos with really terrible filters, just like about
our life. I think a lot of these social platforms
are propped up by like a financial funnel now, and
(07:34):
so just knowing that you're carrying that around in your
hand and in your pocket or in your purse all day.
And I also think it's important to pay attention to.
Like I mentioned before, I think anyone is susceptible to
these things, and I think with specifically with wellness influencers
quite different than someone who is for example, I don't know,
like an your interior designer influencer, your influence to buy
(07:57):
a particular I don't know, like blanket or vachure, like
while art or something like that doesn't really impact you
beyond like a financial aspect, really, But when it comes
to wireless influencers, there's the financial component, of course, but
there's also like they are playing with your health and
your body and your perception of your health, and I
think that makes the wellness space the crossover with wondness
(08:20):
and influence her culture like quite remarkably different.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Oh my gosh, I'm glad that you said this, because
I do think there's this attitude that none of this
stuff really matters. That these health decisions and health choices
that folks are making that they're being kind of prompted
to make through these influencers. They don't even know that
it's the same kind of decision as buy this couch
or don't buy this couch. These decisions can be life
(08:45):
or death. Just look at Ananda Lewis. Ananda Luis on
MTV was one of my idols growing up. She got
to talk to young people about news and real issues
on MTV and I basically just wanted her job. She's
probably one of the reasons why I host this very podcast.
Years later, Ananda's mother was diagnosed with breast cancer. Her
(09:07):
mom went through mammogram after mammogram, and those screenings do
involve some radiation, and yet her mother still developed breast cancer.
So Ananda came to believe that the mammograms themselves caused
her mom's cancer. So in Ananda's own doctors recommended regular mammograms,
she refused, and by the time Ananda's own breast cancer
(09:27):
was discovered, it was far more advanced and if she
had just had the mammograms. And the irony is that
once she was diagnosed, she ended up undergoing pet scans
and other procedures that exposed her to even more radiation
than the mammograms would have. Ananda followed a lot of
wellness claims, like that your body can heal itself through
things like cold plunges and diet alone. When her doctors
(09:50):
recommended a aseectomy to treat her breast cancer, Ananda once
again went against their advice, choosing instead to pursue alternative
healing and ridding her body of toxins. She told People Magazine,
my plan was to get excessive toxins out of my body.
I felt like my body is intelligent. I know that
to be true. Our bodies are brilliantly made. Ananda died
(10:12):
of breast cancer earlier this year, and she left behind
a very young child Before she died. She made a
video reflecting on those choices, saying that she regretted not
listening to medical science and warned others not to follow
her path. In her own words, she said, I decided
to keep my tumor and try to work it out
of my body a different way. Looking back on that,
(10:33):
I go, you know what, maybe I should have. I
don't know if you're familiar with the mtvvj Ananda Lewis,
who passed away recently of breast cancer. I was very
moved by her story, and one of the things that
she said was that she regretted not listening to medical
science and following the guidance of the actual trained health professionals. Instead,
(10:57):
she really thought, oh, I can cure things on I
own through diets, through homeopathic remedies. And I think that
there's this attitude that I'm just this is just a
personality branding thing. I do my own thing, and part
of that is not listening to doctors when in reality
it is life or death. Because she passed away from
(11:20):
cancer which would have been treatable had she listened to
her doctor, and she really was open about regretting that fact,
regretting the fact that she listened to people who maybe
didn't actually have her real life and her real health
at the forefront of their minds.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Absolutely, And I often get asked like so what, like
so what somebody wants to buy supplements, like why do
you care so much? And my response is usually I
think that the best case scenario is that someone just
wastes their money. The worst case scenario is that something
actually impacts their health in a really negative way, or
they're influenced by following particular people online to forego evidence,
(12:00):
evidence based treatment when it's really needed. And unfortunately, like
you just mentioned this one particular story, there are more
and more stories like this coming now out now and
like making it to the headlines. And it's so unfortunate,
and I don't want to see any more of these stories,
but I think we will, And all we can do
is like just amplify them and show them that this
(12:21):
is actually the real harm of what's happening here.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
How did we get to a place where folks are
more comfortable taking medical advice from some influencer on Instagram
rather than an actual medical professional.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I think there's probably a few different things from my
own observations and like my own brain here, but I
think first and foremost, there is like a fairly I
think warranted distrust or like complicated relationship with conventional medicine
or like western medical doctors. In a lot of the
work that I do in observing the wellness space, there
(12:54):
are predominantly women sharing stories about how they were dismissed
by their doctors. They're said were not taken seriously, and
it was that that prompted them to seek out alternatives.
And so I do think there are gaps in medicine
for sure, Like I don't think anyone who is critical
of the wellness space would deny that. I just think
(13:15):
that these wellness influencers, they will tell you that they're
filling those gaps, but my view is that they're actually
exploiting them. And so I think that's one piece of it.
And I think another piece of it is if you
are navigating something and you go to your doctor and
they're talking to you based on evidence and statistics and probability,
(13:37):
and there's no one cure or like one piece that
will fix everything that makes you feel a particular way.
But then you go online and there's an influencer that
is speaking in absolutes, where like medical profession very regulated
can't speak like that, wellness base unregulated can speak like that.
(13:57):
And so if an influencer is telling you that they
like for sureseys you know, have this cure that will
help you, you're probably more inclined to go with them.
I also think too, and I hear this a lot
from you know, again, predominantly women. They're like, well, you
only get fifteen minutes with your doctor, which I don't
know about you, but that's true for me, Like I
only get fifteen minutes with my doctor, but they frame
(14:20):
this as a negative. That's also if you have access
to a doctor in the first place. But these you know,
alternative practitioners or influencers will give you much more time
and they will claim it's because they care about you
more and they will, you know, help you. They will
offer to you what will help you, like for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And I think that goes back to what you were
talking about earlier. Off especially if you're vulnerable, or you're
going through something, or you're navigating a health challenge or
trying to navigate a health challenge on behalf of a
loved one, you are in such a susceptible position. I
very recently was caring for my dad before his death,
and it was this issue where he had several chronic
(15:01):
health issues and he was host like long term hospitalized
for many months, and the doctor twice a day, the
doctors would do their rounds and come into the ICU
room and like talk to me about what was going on,
and they what I First of all, what I wanted
if those doctors had spent two hours with me, that
would not have been enough time. What I wanted was
(15:22):
doctors to come in, hold my hand and say, we
have figured it out. It turns out it was this
one easy thing and he's one hundred percent going to
be okay. But I never goot that. What I got
was fifteen minutes of very good you know, no shade
to the doctors, they were great, but fifteen minutes of
being like, oh, well, you know, we asked this problem
and that problem and this problem and jargon and words
(15:45):
and me having to be like, stop, back up, what
does this mean? And it was an incredibly frustrating experience,
and in that moment of vulnerability, had an influencer online
said I hear you, I see you. The answer is
this miracle cure in your dad is going to be fine.
I would have absolutely been susceptible to that. It is
that that experience has really showed me how these influencers
(16:07):
are so good at targeting the very real vulnerabilities that
really do exist in.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
US vulnerabilities and also specifically like right now with tail
and all being in the news, but I also had
a project earlier this year in January with the fires
in La. Wiless influencers are incredibly skilled at leveraging tragedy
or crises, whether that's like a personal tragedy, so like
(16:33):
you just said, when you're personally like very vulnerable, you
or a loved one are navigating something or perhaps a
community tragedy, so the city that you live in is
on fire. And in that experience or like that, at
that time, I was watching observing willless influencers just ready
to pitch you their supplements and detoxes for like, if
(16:54):
you live in La and you are, you know, breathing
in this air, you need to detox and yours a
discount God for twenty five percent off. And so I
think they are very good at leveraging those feelings around things.
And I also think for listeners and maybe you have
seen the show as well, The Apple Cider Vinegar on Netflix.
(17:15):
It came out this winter. I think that experience that
you just described of, you know, this hypothetical alternative practitioner
or influencer coming in versus an experience with the Doctor.
I think that show did an incredible job depicting those
differences for anyone who's familiar with the show. It's based
on the true story of Bell Gibson. But I think
they did a really good job. Even like you know,
(17:37):
the scenes with the Doctor, there is like this blue
kind of like filter over top of it. I thought
they did a really good job.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Are you very institutional, very cold?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yes? Yep, that very like quick timely turned around. That's
just the reality I think that a lot of people have.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Let's take a quick break at our back. Let's talk
about what RFK Junior called his big autism announcement last week,
when the Trump administration announced that taking thailanol during pregnancy
(18:19):
causes autism. As soon as the administration went public with
this claim, wellness scripters were already on it, hockeying supposed
thailan al alternatives and supplements online. So you mentioned thailanol,
and the Trump administration, as we know, is saying, oh,
we've unveiled the cause of autism, and it's Thailand all
(18:39):
taking Thailand al while pregnant. Something that you really were
on is how these grifters were so on it. People
already had their a supplement. It's like, oh, here's if
you're not taking thailol anymore, because you're not, you don't
want your kid to be autistic, Good on you, mama, bear,
take my supplement. How were they on it so fast?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's practiced like it's it's I think it's like rinse
and repeat every single time. There is something that feels
similar to this, where there is a headline that stokes
fear and they have something to sell you. So you're right, Like,
within a day I saw influencers selling various supplements, some
that are involved in multi level marketing companies, whether that's
(19:24):
like alternatives to tile and all that they just so
happen to have a discount code for which makes me
leave me there. It's so convenient. There's always a financial incentive,
it seems, or you know, using a bit of mental
gymnastics to somehow promote their supplements that maybe aren't alternatives necessarily,
(19:44):
but you still need them in this case. Like it's
so quick, and I wasn't even surprised at this point.
I was just honestly just waiting for it.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
For so long. These influencers have been saying, you can't
trust the FDA, you can't trust the government. But then
they turn around and say, oh, the government just just
pointed out this link to tailant all and autism. I
take I take that to the bank by my supplement.
If you're gonna avoid tilt all. What's going on there?
Like that? Does that seem like a switch up at all?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I've seen it before. I mean, I think with the
tail and all thing too. I've seen a lot of
these influencers be like, well, the study was from Harvard,
and I'm like, I have a hard time believing that
you would take on, you know, belief with every other
study that has come out of Harvard, and so why
is it this particular one that you're so passionately defending.
(20:36):
I also find it really interesting, you know a few
years ago, in observing these Wallness influencers, they had this
motto of I don't co parent with the government, and
they even had like a bunch of merch made and yeah,
and the Mama Bears I don't co parent with the government.
And now I just sick. Kind of seems like they're
(20:59):
really keen to co parent with the government, and I'm like,
where's that merch gone? Like what are we doing here?
So yeah, I think that like their switch up is
pretty predictable. A number of years ago, I was tracking
influencers who were selling a frequency medicine device through again
(21:19):
a multi level marketing company, and one of their pieces
of marketing in promoting that opportunity and that device was
that it was FDA cleared, which is obviously different than
FDA approved, But they were using that as a proof
point of why you should buy it. But then on
their own socials, like within the same day, sometimes they
would turn around and make a video talking about how
(21:41):
you can't trust the FDA, vaccines, masks, all this kind
of stuff, and it's like, but just a second, you
just used the FDA to promote this thing you're trying
to sell. So I think it will always be confusing
and self serving.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, the FDA is good when it benefits me in
my marketing. It's bad when it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's literally always what it is.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And about that Harvard study, I wanted to bring in
our producer, Mike, because Mike is a scientist.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah, you know, I'm not a medical doctor, but as
a scientist, I did want to weigh in about the
quality of that piece of alleged evidence from Harvard that
the administration and MAHA people keep pointing to to support
these dubious claims about talentanol and autism. For one thing,
it was not a new study out of Harvard. It
was a review paper, which will be fine. There's nothing
(22:29):
wrong with the review papers, except this one has been
criticized for leaving out important studies. The senior author, doctor
Andrea Baccarelli, who is dean of faculty at Harvard THH.
Chan School of Public Health, has previously been paid to
testify in support of an association of talent al with autism,
(22:50):
and so the review has been criticized both for its
methodology and for having that conflict of interest. But even
if we set those concerns aside, the paper itself does
not claim that Thailand all causes autism. I think this
is an important point for this piece of evidence that
is supposed to be supporting that because it doesn't say that.
It goes out of its way to not say that.
(23:12):
It reports finding an association, which is very different from
a causal connections. You know, our listeners are pretty savvy folk,
and so I'm guessing they've heard the phrase correlation doesn't
equal causation, and I think that caution very much applies here.
There are many, many reasons that an association might exist
(23:34):
if it does other than a causal connection. And this
isn't just my opinion. I've seen a lot of takes
over the past week from important, respected public health officials
saying similar things. Tom Frieden, the former director of the CDC,
published a long post on LinkedIn reiterating that tailand all
is safe. The balance of evidence suggests pretty clearly that
(23:55):
it is. Doctor zay and Lu, professor at the Yale
School of Public Health, gave an interview in which he
reiterated that there is no proven causal relationship between tail
and all and autism, and so the balance of evidence
is pretty clear here. And it's really unfortunate that because
the author of that one review paper is from Harvard,
(24:17):
it's giving the MAHA crowd license to run with the
Harvard name and make their unsupported claims seem weightier than
they are, even though they're claiming things that the study
itself does not say. And it's also unfortunate that that
same researcher has taken payment for his testimony, because that
raises questions, I think about the independence of the research
(24:39):
and potential conflict of interest. Did he really need the
money that badly? You know, I don't know. But the
whole thing fits awfully, neatly into this same pseudoscience grifter
model that we've been talking about. Sometimes it feels like
the grift goes all the way up. And again, I'm
not a medical doctor and this isn't my area of expertise,
(25:00):
but as a researcher and a consumer of science, I
wanted to offer that perspective and just make sure that
all of our listeners know that the vast majority of
people who are medical doctors and who do specialize in
this topic agree that tail and all is safe.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And it goes back to what Mallory was just saying
about how association with an institution like Harvard or a
study or something like that, it's good when it benefits me,
but other times, oh, you can't trust those institutions, they
don't know what they're talking about. You going to trust
the government totally.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And I also think too like a part of this
now playing into like the social media and the technology part,
Like we're living in an age where your belief systems
are broadcast online for everyone to see, and oftentimes these
influencers have thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands, up to a
million followers, And I just all I think about sometimes
(25:57):
is like, how hard would it be for you to
admit that you were wrong or that you changed your
mind when you have all of these folks following you
and paying you in a lot of ways? Probably, And
it reminds me of something that I read in a
book called How to Talk to a Science Denier by
Lee McIntyre, which I recommend, love, I love it and
I always recommend it. But he talks about this idea
(26:19):
of asking someone about any particular belief that they have,
what information would make you change your mind? Because if
the answer is nothing, first of all, you're about to
have a very unproductive conversation. But like, second of all,
what does that say to you about your belief system
that if nothing could change your mind? That sounds pretty
(26:39):
closed minded and just not I mean, like I see
things through like evidence and science and really support that,
and other people don't. And I understand that. But I
just think in terms of like having a conversation with someone,
especially me and my comment section, like just getting a
gauged for like good faith conversations. I always like to
(27:00):
start with something like that because if the answer is nothing,
then I don't really know what we're doing here.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You know, when you post your content on social media
about the wellness space, what kind of conments are you getting?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
You know, It's funny. I've been creating content for a
few years now. My following has grown. I actually got
a lot more pushback and hate when I had an
incredibly small following, like less than five thousand followers than
I do now. Sometimes I'll have videos end up on
the wrong side of the algorithm, and that will elicit
(27:33):
what I think are a lot of like bought comments,
because they're all the same. They hate my dangs, they
hate my nose ring, I have tattoos, I have pronouns,
I look vaccinated. It's predictable. It's all the same stuff,
and it's nothing that I don't already know about.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Myself, but I know I have beags.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, I got them trimmed. I know that I know
I have my nose ring. I paid for that, and
so it is one of those things where I think
the algorithm is driving alive.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Now.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I also know, because I have my followers send me
videos that I cannot see, that I have been preemptively
blocked by a lot of influencers who I've never heard
of before. And so I think there was probably some
sort of Mallory memo that went around continues to go
around at some point.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Pretty?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Like not terrible?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
To be honest, I was gonna say, you're like the
like Omar from the Wire, but for the wellness space
of like watch out for Mallory. If she gets you,
she's gonna blow your cunt up and point out all
the ways that it's a grift.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I also, like have rarely had folks who I have
included in my videos have a what I would describe
as a productive conversation, like I'm not going to make
a video unless it's like pretty. I feel pretty good
about it, and there's not a lot of wiggle room
for you know, them to be like, actually, like, I
will collect content and feel really good about something before
(28:57):
I publish it to the Internet, and so oftentimes if
those folks come across my content, I think they just
block me. I don't think that they engage in conversation
or try to. Very often, I have gotten a lot of,
you know, very empty legal threats where they're like, that's defamation,
and I'm like, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
When the Trump administration announced that kilol during pregnancy was
supposedly linked to autism, pregnant women pushed back hard because
here's the thing right now, thy lil is pretty much
the only safe option for pain relief during pregnancy. It's
what doctors recommend. So of course women started speaking up.
They were saying, look, I'm going to keep following the
advice of my doctor, and I'm going to take tilamal
(29:39):
for pain if I need it. But here's where the
social media outrage machine kicks in. That very reasonable, measured
pushback suddenly gets spun into something kind of wild online.
It morphed into this completely fabricated story that pregnant liberal
women hate Trump and RFK Junior so much they're filming
themselves overdosing on Thilo mal in mass just to spite
(30:00):
him and winding up in the hospital. Now that's not
really what's happening, obviously, But this is how misinformation spreads.
Take a kernel of truth, twist it, blow it up,
and suddenly becomes a viral culture war talking point. Do
you see outrage marketing or outrage culture and weaponizing and
sploiting outrage online as part of this, because sometimes I'll
(30:23):
see well, miss influencers saying things and doing things. I
think you are saying this because you want to get
people riled up, because you know that it's going to
have a positive impact on your engagement. Is this something
that you see it all while looking at this kind
of content.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yes, absolutely all the time. I mean, I have another
thing that I can talk about. But because Thailand All
is so topical right now, you may have seen there's
a number of conservative content creators who are outraged by
this Thailand All a TikTok trend where apparently pregnant liberal
women are guzzling Thailand All on TikTok as some sort
of gotcha to Trump and RFK Junior The Cut reported
(31:02):
and this is my own observation as well, that that's
not actually happening. There's a handful of you know, women
who are trolling on TikTok. It's the same I don't know,
like four to five tiktoks that these conservative content creators
are clipping, I think, and they're taking a single tile
in all on camera. And I just think that if
this TikTok trend was actually happening where you know, pregnant
(31:23):
liberal women were taking Thailand all by the fistfuls, that
they would be including those videos instead. And I just
haven't seen them. And so you want to talk about
like driving engagement and outrage, I think that's a perfect example.
I have seen tenfold more videos in response to this
alleged trend than I have actual videos that would be
a part of this trend.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, not only would you like see more of those
women guzzling handfuls of fellow, but they would be showing
up in emergency rooms with like liver failure.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah. Well, there is a particular woman. She is the
founder and executive director of American Frontline Nurses. She is
alleging that she received a phone call about, oh, these
redoces are happening and people are in hospitals. I have
not seen any reporting on this, and I think that
if it was inspired by a TikTok trend, Unfortunately, like
harms from TikTok trends, fatalities from TikTok trends has been
(32:13):
reported on before. Unfortunately, that's something that has happened, and
so you know, if this does get reported on, I
will eat my words. But for now, I haven't seen anything,
and I do think in my personal opinion at this point,
I do think it is to drive engagement and that
outrage aside from Thailand, although like I think another really
good example beyond outrage, I think algorithms really favor content
(32:38):
that is extreme, and so even in videos that I stitch,
there are certain videos that I come across where I'm like,
it doesn't even matter what I say or what I do,
this video is going to take off because what this
influencer has portrayed or said is so extreme. And I
think I've covered parasite cleanses before, and I think that's
a really good example of these folks who have these
(33:01):
cleanses to sell you. They can't just say take my
cleans and you'll feel better. They have to say you're
filled with worms. Everyone is it's the root of all disease,
and doctors are lying and the government is suppressing it,
and so you need to buy my tincture in detox
three to four times a year. And also, here's one
hundred photos of people's poop with like alleged parasites in them. Meanwhile,
(33:26):
medical professionals are coming out and saying, actually, like, those
aren't parasites. It's undigested food matter, maybe undetermined matter, or
also maybe the lining of your own intestines. But they're like, Nope,
it's worms. And the government's lying to us. And that's
the extreme claim that they use to push their supplements
because you can't really sell stuff being like I made
(33:49):
this thing in my back shed and I think it'll
make you feel better.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I also think there's just no comparison, Like the people
who are saying it's worms are definitely selling the more
compelling story. What what Like For sure, yeah, I could
sort of understand why, oh my poop looks like that
because I have undigested food matter in it maybe and
not because I'm actually full of secret worms. But government
is lying to me about I can understand why a
(34:14):
certain kind of person is always going to go with
the more compelling story.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, especially when they have something to sell and they're like,
I had no idea I had this many worms in me,
and like you probably do too, and here's my discount code.
Like there was one woman who was I think, financially
tied to a particular product that on its own website
does not describe itself as a parasite clons, but on
social media she would describe it that way, and she
claimed that in I think it was sixty days that
(34:41):
she shit out like eight hundred worms, And I'm like,
first of all, who is counting? Second of all, how
did you care? That works absurd? Like who is believed?
But people are believing it. And so I think there's that,
like the conspiracy element is compelling, and the you you
(35:01):
don't know this about your body, but I'm telling you
because I have privileged knowledge, Like that's really compelling to
There's also.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I think a little bit of like the truth is
in the middle here, Like oh my god, she's saying
I had eight hundred worms. That's probably extreme, but like
maybe I have two hundred that's still bad.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Mm totally yeah, And like also there's a weave of
truth in a lot of these wellness things, so they
parasites and worms exist for sure. I don't think anyone
is denying that they don't. But it's this idea that
everyone has them. It doesn't matter where you've traveled too,
and you're being lied to by the medical system, but
(35:37):
you can trust me a random woman on TikTok who
has a cleanse to sell you.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
And I do think that part of this is, I guess,
a reaction to feeling out of control, you know, I
if I I almost wonder if this is why RFK
when he first got into office, when it, you know,
is a big thing, was I'm going to eventually I'm
gonna do a countdown to what I unveil the cause
of autism. I feel like it's exploiting parents who have
(36:06):
concerns about their kid, right, and I wonder if those
parents feel out of control and so by telling them like, oh,
here's the thing, here is the thing that you need
to avoid, that will the old one hundred percent make
it so that you don't have to worry that your
kid might have autism? People are going to jump on that.
I feel like it's Oftentimes the causes of health issues
(36:27):
are systemic or institutional or we don't know a ton
about them, or they have no easy fix and that
people can just fill that fill that space with a
bunk because of it.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Totally. Yeah, I think well in terms of like the
autism announcement. I know, so I'm a correspondent for the
Conspiratuality podcast and after the election, the American election because
I'm Canadian and so I see all this like very
like just watch observing from the side. But after the
American election in November, we did an episode called Maha Mamas.
(36:58):
I was just looking to that, yes, and so it
was very much so You're right, like I think very strategic,
Like there are these mothers who are concerned, They are
you know, looking to RFK Junior. They like what he
stands for. They may have not voted for Trump otherwise,
but as soon as they you know, partnered together or
RFK Junior was endorsed, that pushed these women to you know,
(37:23):
maybe vote in that way. And I think it's a
lot easier to digest saying I'm voting for making America
healthy again than I'm voting for like the convicted felon.
So I think that that was these like very real
I think concerns that mothers have and questions and you know,
these things that they feel very deeply and are very valid.
I think that that was leveraged in a very strategic way.
(37:47):
And in terms of the out of control feeling, I
mean I only started really observing this space during the pandemic.
But you know, as someone with a fitness background, I
used to be a fitness instructor, these things were never
talked about in these spaces. It was just it was science,
like fitness and health is a science, and so that's
(38:08):
how we spoke about these things. And it wasn't until
the pandemic where I saw a number of my fitness
peers sharing conspiratorial content and I was like, what is
happening here and just seeing a lot of folks really
fall into conspiratorial thinking, I think as a result of
feeling out of control. And it's nice to have or
(38:29):
at length, to feel like you have knowledge and you
know what's happening for sure, and you know what is
causing what, even if that's not substantiated, it makes you
feel better and like in more control.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, I noticed the same thing. I mean, do you
think it was the feeling of lack of control? And
fear and not knowing what was going on that we
all experienced during the pandemic. Do you think that was
what was driving this change?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
I think a lot of it. Like in my own observation,
I'm like, they're so and again only started tracking for
my own content during the pandemic, and so I can't
really compare it to pre pandemic, But like it does
seem even just as someone who digests news and is
like on the internet every day, like it does seem
so much more amplified than it ever was. And I
(39:19):
think that there are folks even you know, that I
work with and they're like, oh, I don't need a
parasite cleanse, And I'm like, you're not someone who strikes
me as someone who would think that you do. And
I think that we're just in a place now where
we don't really know what to believe. There's so much online.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
And the way that these algorithms get you when so
like I also like fitness, I enjoy yoga, I enjoy weightlifting,
and trying to use the internet to get information about
these two which should be like fairly commonplace interests. It's
like the algorithm says, oh, you're into weightlifting. Huh, you're
trying to eat more protein. Huh, well, certainly seed oil
it's got to get those out of the mix. Huh. Right,
(39:57):
certainly you don't want to be vaccinating your family.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
The way that when you just have this one interest
that whatever algorithm has decided, oh well, then you probably
feel x about seed oils X about vaccines. The way
it's sort of done as a digital package deal, I
think is really insidious totally.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
There's this phrase called crank magnetism, and it's this idea
that science deniers or conspiracy theorists often don't believe one
wrong thing, they believe many wrong things. And so if
you are already in the anti vaccine camp, you are
more likely to believe that sunscreen is actually causing cancer
(40:37):
and not the sun. And you are now also more
likely to like homeschool your children, and you are more
likely and like just it becomes like you said, a
package deal, where it's like you kind of believe this
one thing, and it's usually not just that one thing.
And especially when you're following influencers, like if you follow
a particular like homesteading influencer, because you have an interest
(40:58):
in that, you are now all of a sudden fed
you know, anti vax or you should be using tallow
instead of sunscreen stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Women are the primary health decision makers for their families,
and people like RFK Junior know it. That's why targeting women,
(41:29):
especially moms, with health misinformation is so powerful. Enter the
Mama bears, the moms who say that they are the
only things standing between their kids and industries full of corruption.
It seems to me that sort of the connecting thread
on some of this is, as you alluded to earlier,
not just women, but moms, Maha moms, they call themselves
(41:51):
mama bears. How has moms and motherhood? How has that
kind of been the Maha secret weapon?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Like when I did the Conspiratuality episode, it was really
just an observation of like how folks who were already
in the Maha sphere were calling on mothers to be
engaged and be interested and vote a particular way, and
so you know, they would never say it was strategic,
(42:20):
but it certainly was. Like in the episode, I referenced
RFK Junior's website and how he sold merch that referenced
like mahamas, mahammas. But there was no like dad equivalent,
like Dad's got t shirts about I don't know, I
forget now, but like probably not eating sale oil steak
in Tallo, yeah, make tallow Grady. I forget, but it
(42:40):
was probably something really ridiculous like that. And I'm like, oh,
it seems really intentional from a merch perspective anyway, which
maybe some might see as you know, not significant enough,
but I certainly do because merch now you can see
it as like identity. You wear it around, this is
who you are, and if you're wearing merch that says
maha mamas, that is who you're identifying as. And I
(43:02):
think so it was absolutely strategic I think on their
part to pull on mothers, and Kelly means even how
to tweet their references. In the episode where he calls
on mothers and a woman responds to him and says, well,
I'm not a mother, Like what did you mean by this?
And he's like, oh, nothing like It's like no, I
think it was actually something. It's just it would be
(43:24):
harder to digest if you actually called it what it was.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah, And I think you're so spot on that for
a lot of these people. I can't remember the I
that might have been the influencer. There's an influencer that
you that you hear from in that episode where she
talks about how, oh, generally I'm in the middle of
the road politically, and you might even say that I
lean more toward Democrats, but I am happy that Trump
is in the White House because I am I want
to make America healthy again. I am one hundred percent
(43:50):
on board for that. I do think that a lot
of these moms might have a harder time getting behind
somebody like Donald Trump, but then would say like, oh, well,
I didn't vote for all the trumpy stuff. I voted
for the health stuff with the RFK. Is that what's
going on?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
I mean, that's my observation for sure, and I certainly
think again, in my observation, there seems as time passes
to be a really big difference between upper case make
America healthy again and lowercase make America healthy like it's
a movement, not necessarily this like more of like a
conceptual idea of like there are My understanding is, you know,
(44:28):
there are folks who are always trying to make America healthy.
But it's this very particular politically motivated movement.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
And I will say thank god I listened to the
Conspiratuality podcast, because obviously there's nothing about this administration that
I'm that I am for. But I caught myself saying
the thing that some of those influencers say, which is, well,
I don't agreeing with the administration, but you know, there
are some things that RFK is trying to do that
I'm aligned with. And I said that about the ideas
(44:57):
of removing or banning food dies. Then I listened to
the Conspiratuality podcast about it. Come to find out, this
motherfucker it wasn't even a band. It was a how
did they put it, It was a voluntary understanding that
these companies were going to remove some dies with no
kind of enforcement mechanisms. And I'm saying, I literally from
(45:19):
my mouth, was like, well, this administration can't do anything right,
but at least they're trying to ban these food dies.
It was never even a ban. I cannot believe how
effective it was at getting into even the consciousness of
somebody like me who can't stand any of this administration,
that oh, well, there are some good things they're doing
that when you actually look at what they've done.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
It's actually a lot of smoke and mirrors, totally. Yeah,
and like I'm far from an expert on any of that,
but the creators that I follow who are experts, are
calling it just a mirror distraction from issues that really matter,
and a distraction so that you look away from various
cuts in funding that are happening in the same administration.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
And the ways that our health is being sort of
given over to Charlatan's and private companies that might have
friendly and cozy relationships with the administration. They made a
really good point. I swear I'll stop like plus plussing
the Conspiratuality podcast.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Conspirituality.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, it is one of my favorite podcasts, Like I
remember what you'd be listening to it, And I almost
never recommend other podcasts on this show because if if
you gave you open the door to that, I would
the whole podcast episode would be my rex. But if
there was one show that I would suggest folks listen
to you to understand this, it would be Conspirratuality and
the ways that like people who own private testing company
(46:35):
so you know it's so it's not me going to
my doctor or going to an actual clinic and getting
testing done, having that testing being covered by insurance and
all of that. It's no spend five hundred dollars out
of pocket for this private company that runs tests that
will tell you the same thing week. It won't that
my buddy owns all of that. I mean, I just
never realized how much all of this is just the
(46:57):
same old crony politics being repackaged as something that is
good for us.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
And I think that speaks to the very real gaps
in like the American medical system. And oftentimes I think
with those companies that you're talking about that conspiratuality often
talks about, is it's not just these tests that you
pay out of pocket for, it's also the supplements that
they recommend after that their own company owns.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Often Yeah, I mean, I guess my big question of
this is we are people who are health conscious. We
care about our health, we care about fitness and wellness.
I use guasha, I drink mushroom coffee, all kinds of
weird little things that I'm sure I'm wasting my money on.
I do and it makes me feel warm fuzzies, and
that's that. Are there ways to be interested in these things?
(47:43):
And into these things without it leading into a more dangerous,
sometimes extremistic pipeline, Like, is there a way to be
interested in these sort of alternative health practices but be
sane and safe about it, especially online?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's probably a lot of
folks out there who have tips on this, but like
my own opinion is just to like constantly be checking
in with yourself. There are people online who are acting
in various nefarious ways to get you to believe something.
Like I said before, you know, with certain other niches
(48:19):
of influencers, they do not need you to change your
entire belief system in order to influence you to buy something.
But the wellness space is encroaching more and more on
that where they're not just selling you brands, they're selling
you belief systems and so checking in with yourself. I
think it's totally okay to participate in things that you know,
(48:41):
like the mushroom coffee not totally my thing, but if
you like it, then why wouldn't you just do it?
That's fine, I think, but where did you hear it?
Who did you hear it from? What are your motivations
around continuing a particular practice? Is there a pipeline that
exists around this particular path that could have you going
further down into something.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
I know.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Derek Burris, who is one of the co hosts of
the Conspiratuality podcasts. He recently worked with The New York
Times on a video that talks about a funnel but
it is happening that they've identified where it takes someone
from being helf conscious, following these particular influencers all the
way down to rejecting medicine and holding this conspiracy theory
that the healthcare system is like knowingly harming people to
(49:28):
keep them sick and make money. And I think that this,
you know, video really depicts that well around like you
can have these like scrunchy I think that's a phrase
that's online where it's like kind of crunchy, these you know,
lifestyles and these practices and just checking in with yourself
around like how you might be falling down a particular
(49:50):
pipeline or funnel.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
just want to say hi, we just said hello at
tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's
episode at tengodi dot com. There are no girls on
the Internet was created by me bridget Tod. It's a
production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our
executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.
Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Todd.
(50:19):
If you want to help us grow, rate and review
us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check
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