March 8, 2022 • 48 mins
People of color in Ukraine reported racist mistreatment as they tried to flee the country in the wake of the invasion by Russia.
And sadly, bad actors and disinformers seized on these critical conversations online to cause chaos and confusion. Christopher Bouzy, data analyst and CEO of Bot Sentinel, a tool that helps identify inauthentic accounts on Twitter, helps us understand what’s going on.
Shafiqah Hudson’s episode of There Are No Girls on the Internet is one of my favorites we’ve ever published. Listen to her story - How Black Women Tried to Save Twitter: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-black-women-tried-to-save-twitter/id1520715907?i=1000484848337
Check out Bot Sentinel: https://botsentinel.com/
Read about Christopher’s groundbreaking research uncovering the disinformation campaign against Meghan Markle https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/bot-sentinel-meghan-markle-prince-harry-twitter
Visit Black Women for Black Lives for ways to support Ukraine: https://linktr.ee/BW4BL_official
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
People get fired up. You know, people are very you know, passionate.
When it comes to race, it matters race. So of
course if you see like people being denied access to buses,
you're like, you know, your first instant is like, what
the heck is going on? There are no girls on
(00:24):
the Internet. As a production of I Heart Radio and
Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this is there are
no girls on the Internet. At least sixties hundred thousand
people have fled Ukraine in the days following Russia's invasion,
according to The New York Times. Some of these include students,
(00:45):
are migrant workers from Africa, Asia or other regions. People
of color in Ukraine reported racist mistreatment as they tried
to leave the country. The United Nations has acknowledged that
non white refugees have faced racism while attempting to leave
the country. Videos flooded social media of people of color
being taken off buses, being shoved the back of lines
(01:07):
in favor of white Ukrainians, and being harassed by extremists
and in this moment a very real crisis and very
real fear. Bad actors are also exploiting their stories and
social media platforms to further cause chaos, confusion, and distrust.
It is a lot to unbraid. So I turned to
(01:28):
Christopher Boozy, CEO of BT Sentinel, a tool that helps
determine real people on Twitter from inauthentic accounts. So, you know,
I was reading a little bit about your background, about
how you initially fell in love with technology and computers.
Take me back, how did you How did you first
get involved with this kind of stuff. Oh it's simple.
My mother. Um, she she used to work for telephone company. Um,
(01:54):
you know, it's a rising now, but back then it
was I think nine Next or New York Tells, something
like that. And she worked with computers, so she knew
where computers were going before a lot of people, especially
in our community, UM, knew where computers were going. Um.
So for Christmas, she purchased me in a Mattel Aquarious computer.
(02:16):
You know, it was considered kind of like a toy,
but it was it was a computer, you know. Um,
it was basic and actually the language basic. And Um,
this this journey that I've been on, I tell people
all the time, it's really easy to say it started
with my mom. So Christopher's work determining bats from authentic
real accounts really came into sharper focus around the presidential election.
(02:43):
Presidential election in the United States was a really weird
time online. Bad actors use social media to create chaos
and confusion, and a Senate inquiry found that no group
was targeted for this kind of disinformation more than black folks.
Bad actors what you social media accounts pretending often times
pretty badly to be black. If you listen to our
(03:04):
episode last season most Saffiica Hudson, you know exactly what
I'm talking about. It just created a lot of distrust
and confusion, which ultimately was the entire point. This is
around the time when Christopher really started to see the
impact that these kinds of disinformation tactics had on our
ability to meaningfully connect online, especially for black folks. After
(03:25):
the election, we realized like, hey, there were these fake accounts,
uh that were influencing conversations that you know, we're also
being used to target people of color to try to
swathe them away from Hillary Clayton and the Democrats. Um yeah,
I realized like, hey, there's a huge problem here. And
(03:47):
then we started having people who were calling each other
bots like if they didn't agree with each other. So
you know, if you came to my you know, my
Twitter feed and you're like, you know, hey something whatever,
and then I'm just like, I don't agree with you.
Then someone jumps in, you know that this person is
a bot or that person is a bot, and I
just thought it wasn't productive and it was counter I
(04:10):
mean it just for what social media is and what
we are supposed to use it for. I just thought
by everyone calling each other about because we did not agree,
that that just was adding to the problem. So, you know,
I set out to try to create a platform to
allow people to be able to identify the real accounts
(04:30):
from the fake accounts, you know, because I really don't
even though the name of the company is bought Sineal,
I don't like using the term bot that much because
it has morphed over time. Um And a lot of
the accounts now that we see are not really bots
per se. They are more human controlled accounts. Um. So
we like to say in authentic accounts. So how do
(04:52):
you actually use machine learning to distinguish an authentic accounts
from authentic accounts? Back in twenty seventeen, started work being
on the platform, really started doing the research, and you know,
in the beginning hit a roadblock because it's like, okay,
you know when you when you create these models, these
machine learning models, you have to train it and you
(05:13):
have to give an examples of quote unquote what's a
good account versus a bad account. So you know, my
opinion of a good account may be different from your
your opinion, and you know, my opinion of a bad
account might be different from yours and so forth. So
what I consider good may not be with other people
consider good or bad. Uh So, what I ended up
(05:35):
doing was using Twitter's UM terms of service there there
there you know, rules, and that was the guide like
whatever they considered what's breaking the rules and you know whatever,
that's what I would use as the you know, the
roadmap or the map whatever UM. So then started looking
(05:58):
for accounts that were considered good and consider bad and
trained the model and and did this over time and
at the same time building out the platform, and then
in launched it UM And I mean, I don't want
to say it was an overnight success, but people, you know,
pretty much flocked to it because it was something that
people were really dying for, because they really wanted to
(06:19):
know who they were interacting with. So there were already
a few tools out there to determine if an account
online as a BOT or not, but Christopher wanted to
go further. There were a couple of other, um, you know,
platforms or similar products out there there, but you know,
the way that they were designed, they were designed to
pretty much say like bot or not, you know, kind
(06:41):
of like old days hot or not, bot or not. Yeah,
you know, And I thought that was bad because it's
it's it's not black and white, it really isn't. And
so my system was more like a credit you know,
score system, where you have accounts that are rated normal,
satisfied three, disruptive, and problematic, obviously problematic being the worst,
(07:04):
you know, obviously like the lease worst or whatever. And
so people understood that right away. So they were able
to look at those reports that are generating when you
analyze an account and they're like, okay, I get this,
understand it. So it's not just you know, bot or not.
You know, we have a range of different scores. I
have been called a bot before if I've said something
(07:26):
that people a lot of people didn't agree with. Um
it's one of the reasons I have my camera on
for this interview. I was like, I just want to
make sure that he knows that he's talking to it
an actual black human who exists in the world. Do
you just see somebody on Twitter who is just not
using the language correctly? Like obviously at your Twitter feed
today and someone said someone had a tweet that said,
(07:48):
any time a black goes against what they're supposed to
be doing or doesn't doesn't support the Democrats, y'all say
it's a bot. And I'm thinking, I don't know any
other black people who would refer to another black person
as a black That doesn't sound right to me. And
so it's interesting how before we just had these sort
of cultural cues or language cues to help us understand
(08:11):
if this person is actually, you know, the black human
that they're purport purporting to be, And now we have
this tool that can really put a little bit of
of of data behind it. This is actually a persistent
problem on social media people pretending to be someone they're not.
Online journalist Wanna Thompson popularized the term black fishing, when
someone who isn't really black pretends to be black on
(08:33):
social media. And it doesn't just stop at race. It
can be all kinds of things. For instance, people pretending
to be medical professionals or doctors to spread vaccine misinformation.
And this person that you're talking about, we called it
black fishing, when someone pretends to be black, creates an account,
(08:53):
uses a black photo, and they try to persuade other people,
you know, in the community to do things by saying
certain things. So they would say, for example, I don't
like Joe Biden. You know, he's not he hasn't done
anything for the black community. You know, me being a black,
(09:15):
I don't find him to you know, have my values
or whatever. Um. So anyone reading that will say, wait,
you know, is that a typeo you know? Or did
this person actually get it raw? Um? And that applies
to a lot of different things. That that applies to
people who are pretending to be doctors who are telling
(09:37):
people not to take the vaccine, and another doctor reading
some of what they're tweeting would say, this makes absolutely
no sense. So so maybe to you and I, uh,
not being doctors, who may not spot that right away,
but a professional you know that does this for a living,
would say, hey, what you said just makes absolutely no sense.
There's no way you're a doctor. So you know, so
(10:01):
the same applies to like you said, when you know,
unfortunately someone is trying to pretend like they're black, Black
fools can usually spot that right away. Yeah, and I
also think I completely agree, And I think you gave
people a way to have just better conversations on social
media because we probably all had that experience of your
talking to somebody on Twitter and eventually you're like, this
(10:24):
person is not worth my time, This person is not
worth having a conversation with. This person is not interested
in having a thoughtful conversation. And I think you're to
you what you've done has given people a better framework
for when it's like this person is not worth engaging.
This person is misrepresenting themselves. This person is misrepresenting the
situation that they're that they're claiming to be an expert
(10:45):
on or claiming to have experience with. You know, not
every not every person on social media is worth your
time or like the person that you should be trying
to have a real conversation with. Ultimately, Christopher wants to
help create better social media experiences, one where people, especially
women of color, who we know are so often targeted,
don't have to be subjected to constant harassment just to
(11:06):
show up online. But what's happened on Twitter. There's also
the targeted harassment side of things, where a lot of
these in authentic accounts, UM, they purposely go after people
that are either you know, supporting an individual or you know,
they're talking about climate change or you know, whatever the
(11:27):
issue may be. And we see that a lot with women,
especially women of color. UM. You know, we're doing a
study now, research now on Kamala Harris. UM. We previously
did something on Megan Markle, and women of color are
seemed to be like the prime target for a lot
(11:50):
of these accounts. So we started building out too to
help with that. You know, we have an order blocker
that blocks accounts not only based on the Bosom rating,
but also it could be tailored to the individual. Let's
just say there's an emoji that a lot of these
accounts are using. I can't think of something right this second,
(12:11):
but uh, if if you want, you can block accounts
that are using that specific emoji or even specific keywords
if you wanted to. UM, you can block accounts that
are just recently created because, as you know, a lot
of times when they're doing the swarming when they're attacking,
they will just go and create a bunch of accounts
like right away and then spam you and attack you
(12:31):
with that. So you can actually auto block accounts that
were just recently created or don't have a lot of
followers or not, you know whatever. I mean, it can
be literally tailored to your taste. Um, so we thought
that was a lot better than just people using generic
blocklists or you know, using other products that just block
based on a list. You know you're blocking it, so
(12:54):
I should you know, that doesn't really work. I mean,
we are trying to make the platform form a place
where people can feel safe, you know, that they can
use our tools to I don't know, have a better
experience on Twitter and then hopefully on other platforms as
following the future. Let's a quick break ut her back.
(13:29):
I was baking though, Fisher literally looked me my eye
and said, in his language only Ukrainians, that's all that
if you're black, you should walk. That's Jessica Arecpo, a
Nigerian medical student and one of the estimated sixteen thousand
African students living in Ukraine. Around twenty Indian students also
(13:51):
live in the country. As the invasion of Ukraine intensified
we solve reports of non white people in Ukraine struggling
to get out of the country. The hashtag Africans in
Ukraine was used to amplify stories of Africans being pulled
off trains and busses not being allowed to flee in
favor of white Ukrainians by Ukrainian authorities. Doctor Imbagwu, a
(14:13):
twenty four year old doctor from Nigeria who lived in
western Ukraine, told The New York Times the Ukrainian border
guards were not letting us through. They were beating people
up with sticks and tearing off their jackets. They would
slap them, they would beat them, they would push them
to the end of the queue. It was awful. So
I need to make this really clear. It is absolutely
true that the people of color in Ukraine are being
(14:34):
mistreated during an active invasion because of racism, and it's disgusting.
The High Commissioner for Refugees from the United Nations confirmed
this in a statement. And really, you don't even need
to look to stories from folks on the ground to
see the way that racism against non white people in
Ukraine is playing out. This isn't a place with all
due respect, you know, like at Rock or Afghanistan, it
(14:55):
has seen conflict raging for decades. This is a relatively
civiliz relatively European I have to choose those words carefully,
to city where you wouldn't expect that or hope that
it's going to happen. But this clear racism also reveals
a really important, yet difficult to contend with reality about
how disinformation works, That it's often rooted in actual truth,
(15:18):
and bad actors inflame legitimate tensions during already tense moments
like this to create chaos and confusion at a climate
where nobody knows what to believe. So, while it is
absolutely true that non white refugees in Ukraine are facing
disgusting racism as they try to flee, it's also true
that inauthentic accounts and bad actors are cruelly using their
(15:39):
stories to inflame racial tensions and deepen existing divisions. And
what's even more disgusting is that we have a digital
media landscape that makes it really easy for them to
do this. So what are you seeing in terms of
a conversation online with regard to black people in Ukraine. First,
I would like to say that yes, there were of
(16:00):
you know, of color, not just black people, know they
were there were you know, Indian people, Brazilians as well
who did Um, who did face some discrimination, I guess
is how you would say it, because they were not
allowed to board busses. Now, the the pushback to that was, well,
(16:21):
you know where they were going, Um, they were not
allowed to enter that they had to go into like
another country or something like that. UM. So like if
they were going trying to go into Poland, for example,
there were black folks who were denied access. So that's true.
And there were people that were not allowed on buses
(16:42):
or pulled off buses and stuff like that. UM. Now
you have accounts that are popping up all of a sudden,
newly created accounts claiming to be black that were saying
things that we could not verify. You know that videos
that were not even from Ukraine that people started you know,
(17:04):
sharing that stuff. And we can clearly see that a
lot of these accounts were fake, they were inauthentic, you know,
using our technology, UM looking at you know what exactly
these accounts are saying. Because some of these accounts were
just spamming the same thing over and over and over.
And over again, and that's a clear sign of platform manipulation.
(17:27):
It's so awful for so many reasons, but a big
one is that it creates a climate where the actual
people of color fleeing for their lives have to work
that much harder to amplify their stories in a media
landscape awash with confusion and in authentic discourse. Students sharing
videos about their experiences in Ukraine on social media began
timestamping their videos and adding exact location codes to demonstrate
(17:49):
that they were actually real and authentic, and the fact
that they would even need to do this just to
be heard demonstrates how badly tech platforms have failed to
create a landscape that people can meaningfully turn to for
sharing and receiving information during a time of real crisis,
because they have to compete with inauthentic accounts and bad
actors who are using their very real trauma to manipulate people.
(18:14):
It's a complex situation. And then pointing it out, Christopher
face criticism that he was invalidating the reality of racism
actually fased by non white people in Ukraine. But even
that reveals a tough point about combating disinformation. Bad actors
will seiz on, moments of crisis, intention to inflame legitimate
pressure points that already exist in our communities, the kinds
(18:36):
of sensitive or highly charged topics that can be difficult
to discuss. So you know, it's our job to report
the truth, you know, published the truth, whether it defends
someone or not. And that's what we did. And of
course there were people that were just like, oh, you know,
you're perpetrating this thing. Is if it's just propaganda, you know,
our people are being left to die, And you're like, no,
(18:58):
that's not what we're doing at all. We're not saying
that this is not actually happening on the ground. But
when you have accounts that are trying to sow division,
who start trying to sow discord, excuse me, who are
trying to divide people, who are trying to make you know,
people of color not supportive of a country because of
some incidents that happened. Um, I mean, look, let's let's
(19:21):
let's be honestly, let's be real. There's racism everywhere. There's
racism here in the United States. You know. Unfortunately, I
can walk down the street and get stopped by a
car and got bid. I can get shot just because
of the color of my skin. But going back to
the actual fake accounts, they were clearly trying to manipulate
(19:41):
and we see this all the time unfortunately on social media,
black folks or targeted a lot um because you know,
whether it's Black Lives Matter, whether it's elections, you know,
they feel as if we're easily manipulated because you know,
matters of race. People get fired up. You know, people
(20:06):
are very you know, passionate when it comes to race.
It matters of race. So of course if you see
like people being denied access to buses, you're like, you know,
your first instinct is like, what the heck is going on?
Like I'm supporting this country and now you're treating my
people like like garbage, like what's happening? And then it
(20:27):
goes viral And that's what state actors want. They want
that they want to muddy up the waters. You know,
they want you to not support this country, not support Ukraine,
so they will take a little snippet of truth and
make it seem like a whole entire country is filled
with Nazis and people who hate black folks, and that's
(20:48):
just not true. Are their races in Ukraine of course
there there are. I mean, I'm they're like I said,
I'm from the United States. They're they're a bunch of
races here, and they're a bunch of races in the
UK and there are a bunch of racists everywhere. But
that doesn't mean that the whole entire country is racist.
That doesn't mean that because these people were not allowed
(21:08):
on the you know, the buses are not allowed entry
into a country, that that was the policy of the
actual country itself. Um, And that's what we were just
trying to, uh, you know, to to to convey to
people that, hey, look, be really careful about what you're sharing.
You can be upset about what's happening in Ukraine, you
could be upset about people not being acts allowed access
(21:30):
to buses and stuff like that, but you can also
be vigilant and not help, you know, escalate this situation
on social media. Yeah, and I think that that really
exposes a truth about disinformation and bad actors that I
say a lot, but this was a time where I
really felt it. You know, bad actors they exploit our
(21:53):
legitimate tensions and traumas and triggers to manipulate us. And
I know that when I saw these videos of black
folks and other folks of color, you know, not being
let on busses and all of this chaos, it triggered
something in me like that is that is a tension
point within me personally. Disinformation tends to be rooted in
some kind of legitimate truth, right, and that bad actors
(22:16):
they exploit that, those tensions, those pressure points, They exploit
that within people to manipulate us. And I definitely felt it.
I had to stop myself from you know, quickly retweeting
and and amplifying videos just because they had caused a
kind of emotional response from me. And I think that's
something that we need to really be super clear on
(22:36):
that bad actors they're very savvy. They know how to
manipulate issues that get people fired up, and they they
definitely found my issue, and you know, I think that
being really aware of that is key, and then also
really knowing the historical precedent, because you're absolutely right. I
think that a lot of bad actors and people who
are pushing disinformation just see black the black community in
(22:59):
the United States as easy fodder for manipulation. You know,
we know that in the election, there was no group
targeted for Russian interference on social media to medal in
the election more than black folks in the United States.
We know that a Senate inquiry confirmed that, and so
we've got to keep in mind there is a historical
precedent for you know, people seeing us as easy targets
(23:23):
for manipulation along the basis of race, and that that
bad actors are going to exploit things that are legitimate concerns,
like there are is legitimate anti blackness and racism happening
in Ukraine. I am sure of it. However, it's not
negating that to also keep in mind, and bad actors
are going to exploit that truth to try to manipulate us. Absolutely.
(23:48):
I mean, you're preaching to the choir here, um. And
that's what we try to We try to educate not
only know the black community, but we also try to educate,
you know, the white community as well, to let them
understand what's happening. Because still people don't realize even I
mean it's been several years now, don't realize just how
(24:08):
much platform manipulation is happening. They don't realize how much
targeted harassment is happening. Um. So that's why I try
to use my Twitter account as a teaching tool. UM.
And you know, whether it's you know, a celebrity that's
being attacked or an organization that's being attacked, you know,
I try to kind of rip the scab off and
(24:32):
and and and let people see because sometimes, you know,
I would have people ask like why are you amplifying this?
You know, and it's like the only way we're gonna
educate people, and and and the only way we're gonna
fix this is by educating people is showing them and
giving them a window into what's happening. Because a lot
of a lot of the researchers UM in my field
(24:55):
that do this, like a lot of times if they
publish a report, they don't even know publish the list
of accounts. We don't do that. We publish everything because
we want people to understand what's happening. So whether you know,
we are showing you know, pages of tweets, you know,
the accounts themselves. UM, we want people to be educated.
(25:19):
And you know, I'm asked all the time like how
are we going to fix this problem? And I'm like,
critical thinking is key here, UM, rethinking how we teach
our kids about you know, social media and and and
looking for you know, like, for example, if someone posts
something um and you're not you're not sure it's it's legitimate,
(25:43):
teaching our kids to research and find out if that's
you know, legitimate, taking just five minutes and trying to
find you know, other sources for this particular story. And
and I'm I'm gonna tell you right now, I have
seen journalists. These are professionals who retweet stories that are
completely fake. And I still, you know, it happened a
(26:05):
lot in and it's still happening in. Yeah. I mean
I have been guilty of it. I have to admit,
and and and I've been guilty of it before I
knew a lot about how this stuff works. Now, when
I see a story, I kind of have my bullshit
detect her up. There are a couple of things where
I'm like, oh, I don't know, a story that just
(26:26):
seems a little like a little too I kind of
put this. When I see a story that seems taylor
made for someone like me to share it, it almost
seems like it was crafted specifically for virality, my bullshit
detector goes up. Or I'm like, oh, this is just
a little too convenient that everything that that would prompt
(26:48):
someone like me to share is there. And so I
have gotten a lot smarter about that kind of thing now.
But a few years ago, I don't think we were
having conversations about, like, it's good to check you know,
your sources, check your sources. It's good to like verify
if something seems a little fishy to you, maybe google it.
You know, I don't think we were having conversations about
(27:10):
the importance of that kind of literacy online even just
a few years ago. We were not. We were and
and and it's good to see that we are having
those conversations. Um. You know, I look, one company can't
do it all, you know, I would love to see
more companies come into this space and be public about it,
because there are there are some companies that work for
(27:33):
like campaigns, UM and they do things behind the scenes,
and that's not helping. It really isn't. Because yes, you know,
it's good to like, if there's a campaign and there's
someone putting out disinformation, someone is helping to mitigate that disinformation.
But we need we need more people doing this publicly.
(27:53):
You know, we need workshops, We need people to understand,
like you said like, hey, check other sources. Um, we
wasn't have that conversation a few years ago. Hey, you know,
look at who you're engaging with, Look at who you're amplifying.
Is this person a state actor? Because there are there
are accounts that you know, fly under the wire for months,
(28:15):
sometimes years that are you know, they are fake and
they are state sponsored accounts, and they're just helping to
you know, whatever it may be, you know, whether it's
trying to help Republicans or trying to you know, pretend
like they are Democrats in the beginning and then kind
of switch up and say, oh, you know, I'm no
longer supporting the Democrats because of X, Y and c um.
(28:38):
You know, we see that a lot. So, you know,
I just think, I just think that as a society,
we need to start having these conversations more. After a break,
(29:04):
let's get right back into it. You really reveal something
about why I get so fired up about things like
in authentic accounts and disinformation is because we're not really
able to have we're not really able to view social
media to have the authentic, thoughtful, accurate, substitutive conversations that
we need to be happy and so I'm a black person.
(29:26):
I care deeply about the treatment of black folks, folks
of color, marginalized people, both here in the United States
and around the globe. That is something that I care
deep like my my entire life is about that. And
I am not able right now to have a conversation
on our largest social media platforms about the status of
(29:47):
the folks that I care about my own community around
the globe because of bad actors and disinformation. It's like,
and so I think that that's the thing I always
hit on, is that what we what what we all
was out on, is having a media ecosystem where the
conversations that we need to be having critically are are
able to be had. We don't have that right now.
(30:08):
You know if even you, like I see the pushback
that you get trying to make this point of like,
yes there is racism happening in Ukraine, of course, and
yes there are state actors trying to manipulate how we
respond to it. And people will respond to you saying like, oh,
you're negating racism or you're saying racism doesn't exist, and
(30:28):
it just goes to show that we are losing out
on having a media a digital media ecosystem where we
can have these conversations and where we can actually move
forward on these issues that are so critically important. Right,
I just want to get this in there. Mean, first thing,
we need legislation too. We we definitely and I hate
(30:51):
to say this, but we're going to need legislation to
help us. Um kind of you know, when this war,
because that's what we're in now. We're in a disinformation war. Um,
and the bad guys, I hate to say this, are winning.
They really are because it's really easy, really really easy
(31:13):
to you know, to have platform manipulation. It's really easy
to change opinions on social media. People do not understand
just how easy it is because something you said, Um,
you know, like I look at this tweet and it
almost seems like it's tailored for me. Man, it is,
(31:34):
it is. It is really easy. And I've done this experiment.
I've actually done this experiment. It's really easy to craft
a tweet to make it go viral. It's really easy
to craft a tweet to sparking emotion in a certain group. Um,
whether you are l g B t Q plus, whether
(31:56):
you are black, whether you're a woman, whether you're a male,
whether you're an insult I don't what you are. If
there are ways that you can craft tweets and if
you do it the right time, at the right time
of the day, and you use the certain keywords, it's
going to go viral. Okay, almost every single time, it's
going to go viral. Um. It's no different than marketing.
(32:19):
And there are there are people that are getting paid
a lot of money. Uh, you know, they're they're bad
actors to figure out ways of doing these things, and
you know, they have their systems on how to make
things go viral. How to you know, to manipulate this
group of people to do x y and z um.
So we need legislation number one UM to kind of
(32:43):
you know, I don't. I don't agree with this, this
whole thing that like everyone needs to be verified because
there are legitimate reasons why someone would not want to
be verified. So I'm actually not against anonymous accounts. However,
I am against accounts that are tending to be something else. So,
(33:04):
you know, legislation, for example, preventing people from creating accounts
for the sole purpose of platform manipulation could be one thing.
Because don't be mistaken, it's not just happening in Russia
or you know, some other far off place. You have
people here in the United States, groups of people that
are creating fake accounts to manipulate whether it's you know,
(33:27):
regarding elections, whether it's white supremacists that are trying to
so discord within the black community, whatever it may be.
So that should be illegal number one. Um. And then
the other thing is making platforms do more because they're
just doing the bear the bear minimum And we all
know this, anyone that's been on social media, you know,
(33:48):
for the past month, maybe um know that the platforms
are not doing enough. Um, So there needs to be
legislation to kind of force them to do more or
because why would they you know, why would Twitter, for example,
remove ten thousand accounts when they don't have to, because
that's money for them. When you think about the state
(34:11):
of our our media landscape, are you hopeful, like, like,
do you think it's a lost cause? Do you think
you know, it's just such a cess pool and these
platforms are going to do anything and we're never gonna
get useful legislation or are you hopeful that we'll get
somewhere to make it possible to have meaningful subset of change. Right. Um,
(34:34):
I think it's going to take a big event, a
big event, you know, maybe like a terrorist attack where
and I always give this this example. There's really nothing
stopping someone right now from using social media to to two. Say,
for example, I'm gonna give you an example here. Um,
(34:58):
let's say someone goes and they say, hey, yo, let's
get a group of people. We're gonna we're going to
make it look like that there are a bunch of
black folks that are going around New York City and
just stabbing people. And they go on social media and
(35:23):
they start posting this stuff, and you know, they even
have videos of black folks stabbing people. Now you got
but a bunch of Caucasian white folks. They're like, oh
my god, there are black folks that are going around
New York and they are stabbing people, you know, and
now they're walking down the street and they're nervous, and
all of this is a hoax. This whole entire thing
(35:44):
is a hoax. But it's going viral. It's going viral
on Twitter, it's going viral on Facebook, it's going viral,
and it's everywhere and it's all fake. I can tell
you right now. There's nothing stopping this from happening right now. Um,
because the platforms like Twitter and and and and they do,
you know, like when stuff starts to get out of hand,
(36:05):
they do take action, but they take action too late. Um,
so you may have an hour or two that goes
on before you know, goes by excuse me, before they
take action. Um, that's more than enough. And we've seen
this before in the past. It's you know, if there's
a mass shooting all of a sudden, you see like
the same picture from like the last five mass shootings
(36:26):
where they claim it's this guy or whatever, and then
that goes via, oh is this guy? Well, there's not
anything really right now stopping anyone from you know, creating
like a fake attack, which I will call it then
you know, in a sense of terrorist attack where you're
creating this this this this this fake you know the
thing that's happening, and people are getting terrified because they think,
(36:47):
oh my god, like they're black folks that are going around,
you know, they're they're fed up and they're stabbing or
killing white folks and what are we gonna do and
all this other stuff. Um, and that's just like a
weird example that I gave, but you can clearly see
how platform manipulation could go from something starting on Twitter
or Facebook or wherever and then spilling into the real world.
(37:08):
And we got in we actually have real real world
examples of that. Um you know, back in going into
seventeen with the whole um Pizza Gate thing, where you know,
you have that that individual who really thought Hillary Clinton
was sex trafficking kids. Then we have won six Um
(37:34):
a lot of that was organized online and it's spilled
into the real world and you got these crazy people
that were storming the capitol, you know. So there's nothing
stopping you know, someone else from doing this. An event
like that, well then prompt legislators here in the United
States to say enough is enough, we need to do something. Um.
(37:57):
So I gave a long answer to say that, Yes,
I do think legislation is coming. I do believe that
things are going to get better. I do I think eventually,
you know, people are gonna just say enough is enough
and things are going to move in the right direction.
(38:17):
And I do believe that platforms are going to be
forced to have to take action. UM So, you know,
the question, I think the real question is not if
what win? Are we talking another year? Are we talking
five years? I don't. I don't have hopefully sooner rather
than later, because I want to be out of business.
I want bots and to be out of business. I
(38:40):
want to be able to retire and not have to
deal with you know, inauthentic accounts and bots and stuff.
I mean, wouldn't it be great if we didn't have
to wait for some sort of you know, calamitous events,
and people with power to make this change would just
do it, Like, wouldn't that be great? Well, you know,
(39:00):
something really quickly and we didn't talk about this, but
really really quickly. So all right, So the platforms have
been blocking you know, Russia and you know, they've been
blocking certain areas and things of that of that nature,
and I've had people reach out to me. I've had
journalists reach out and say, hey, have you noticed a
(39:24):
decline and like trolling like this, things seem a bit quieter,
you know, all you guys noticing this. And I tweeted
about that earlier and I said the short answers, Yes,
there's definitely a decline over the last you know, like
let's say, to the last three or four days of
just like the vitriol and the trolling, I mean, because
(39:46):
we were just seeing like a lot of stuff regarding
Biden and Biden you know, he can't remember when he
did yesterday, you know, just nonsense like that, and we've
definitely seen a decrease. Now, we've also seen an increase
in accounts praising Vladimir Putin, and we've seen you know,
(40:07):
fake accounts once again saying that Ukrainians are racist and
it's a racist country. But overall, we've definitely seen a
decline in the trolling. You know, And I made a
joke not on Twitter, this is personally and I'm just like, God,
I wish it was like this every single day, Like
I wish that you can go onto social media and
(40:29):
actually interact with people and not have to deal with
the constant trolling. So you we we we were getting
a glimpse of what life could be like if the
platforms were actually to take this more seriously. And we
deserve that. We deserve to be able to go on
to our largest communications platforms and have a conversation without
(40:53):
being trolled, without being harassed, Like we deserve that everybody deserves, absolutely,
especially women and women of color, because at the end
of the day, and we've provided data on this. Women
are at the top of the list in terms of
people who are constantly targeted and attacked, and women of
(41:14):
color are the number one. UM and it's and platforms
do need to do better at at at you know,
curtailing a lot of this stuff that's happening. But you're
absolutely right. First thing, a platform like Twitter. Sometimes I
get really disappointed with Twitter because Twitter, for me, you know,
(41:36):
it's people will talking about like Facebook and you know, Instagram.
I think Twitter is the most powerful platform on the planet.
I believe that to my core. And the reason behind
that is because unlike other social networks, Um, Twitter can
drive news cycles. You know Twitter, you know, I can
(41:58):
put something out on Twitter into read something and it
could be picked up by a major prop uh you know,
outlet or publication or whatever. Um. You know, Joe Biden
can go right now, President Biden can go and tweet
something out about Ukraine and it will go viral. I
mean it could literally start a war depending on what
he you know, tweets out. So you know, people are
(42:21):
using Twitter and journalists and world leaders are using Twitter
to get news and information and everything out and unlike
Facebook and Instagram, it's a platform for in a hub
for information period. So you would think with you know,
(42:42):
with a platform like this, that the people on Twitter
would say, hey, you know something, we really need to
make this place a lot better because we're like where
people go for serious news. You know, a lot of
people don't even go to that. They don't even have
like cable anymore, or you know, they're not even like,
you know, going and buying newspapers. Unfortunately, they're going to
(43:05):
Twitter to get their news. So you would think the
folks that Twitter would say, hey, it's time for us
to really take our own platform seriously, Like they're they're
I hate saying this, and and and there's nothing wrong
with the n f T s, but I'm just like,
why are you focusing on n f T like profile
images where you should be focusing on the rampid disinformation
(43:30):
and harassment on your platform? Like who asks for n
f T profile pictures? Literally every time they released something,
I'm like, who asked for this? Why don't you focus
on You've got a lot on your plate in terms
of making a fun, safer and better, Like, why don't
you focus on that? I don't understand it. Like when
I saw that, I was just like, who asked for this?
(43:54):
You know? So I mean, look, I understand what my
needs may be and what your needs may be. Maybe
a little bit different from what the developer needs maybe, um,
but they need to really sit down with folks and
get an idea of what their platform really is about
to other people. And I know, look, not everyone uses
(44:14):
Twitter for news and things like that. There are people
on there who are just doing their thing. I get that.
But Twitter can definitely drive new cycles and because of that,
the folks that Twitter need to to to do more,
you know, they definitely need to do more. Well hopefully.
I think that your work is really creating the conditions
(44:36):
for them to really see that. I think that's very
clear to me. And it sounds like you don't agree
you know something. Um, I'm sorry and I completely apologized
to cut you off. Um. I think I think our
work for you know, the general republic and journalists and
stuff like researchers. I think they look at our work
(45:00):
and obviously want us to continue, and they, you know,
value what we're doing. Twitter on the other hand, UM,
I think we're kind of a thorn sometimes in their side,
because we expose a lot of things that they probably
don't want to be exposed. Um. So you know, I'm
not saying Twitter would love for us to disappear. I'm
(45:20):
not going to say that because I do believe they
also find value in what we're doing. Um, but I
think they probably would like it if we're like less
effective at what we're doing. Something tells me you don't
have any plans to become less effective? No, no, not
at all, not at all. Well, Christopher, this has been
(45:42):
such a good conversation. Where can people keep up with
all of your work? Oh? Um? Well, first thing, you know,
our website is bought Bot Sentinel s E N T
I in e L dot com. Um, they can follow me.
I'm at see bou z y. Um that's Twitter. And yeah,
(46:06):
I mean, look like I said, I use my account
to try to educate people, and you know, I'm I'm
very vocal about things. Um, I don't hold my tongue. Um.
So you know, if you want to follow me on
Twitter and learn more about this stuff and other issues
as well, you can do that. But if you're just
more focused on our technology, you can go to the website.
(46:29):
People of Color in Ukraine deserve to make their voices
heard without having to compete with disinformers and bad actors
on social media platforms to do so. And we all
deserve a digital media landscape that can be used to
get authentic, accurate information about what's happening in our world,
especially during a crisis. We all deserve better. You can
help support black students in Ukraine and find more resources
(46:52):
that Black Women for Black Lives. Go to Black Women
for Black Lives dot org or click the link in
the show description and we'll be continuing the conver station
around what's happening in Ukraine later this week. Got a
story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want
to say hi, You can be us at Hello at
tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for
(47:14):
today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls
on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's
a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan
Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as our producer,
and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm
your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,
rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts
(47:34):
from I heart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you
(47:55):
liked this episode, help us out by subscribing. You can
also support the show by by merch at tangodi dot
com slash store and sign up for my brand new
newsletter at tangodi dot com slash Newsletter That's t A
n G O t I dot com
People get fired up. You know, people are very you know, passionate.
When it comes to race, it matters race. So of
course if you see like people being denied access to buses,
you're like, you know, your first instant is like, what
the heck is going on? There are no girls on
(00:24):
the Internet. As a production of I Heart Radio and
Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this is there are
no girls on the Internet. At least sixties hundred thousand
people have fled Ukraine in the days following Russia's invasion,
according to The New York Times. Some of these include students,
(00:45):
are migrant workers from Africa, Asia or other regions. People
of color in Ukraine reported racist mistreatment as they tried
to leave the country. The United Nations has acknowledged that
non white refugees have faced racism while attempting to leave
the country. Videos flooded social media of people of color
being taken off buses, being shoved the back of lines
(01:07):
in favor of white Ukrainians, and being harassed by extremists
and in this moment a very real crisis and very
real fear. Bad actors are also exploiting their stories and
social media platforms to further cause chaos, confusion, and distrust.
It is a lot to unbraid. So I turned to
(01:28):
Christopher Boozy, CEO of BT Sentinel, a tool that helps
determine real people on Twitter from inauthentic accounts. So, you know,
I was reading a little bit about your background, about
how you initially fell in love with technology and computers.
Take me back, how did you How did you first
get involved with this kind of stuff. Oh it's simple.
My mother. Um, she she used to work for telephone company. Um,
(01:54):
you know, it's a rising now, but back then it
was I think nine Next or New York Tells, something
like that. And she worked with computers, so she knew
where computers were going before a lot of people, especially
in our community, UM, knew where computers were going. Um.
So for Christmas, she purchased me in a Mattel Aquarious computer.
(02:16):
You know, it was considered kind of like a toy,
but it was it was a computer, you know. Um,
it was basic and actually the language basic. And Um,
this this journey that I've been on, I tell people
all the time, it's really easy to say it started
with my mom. So Christopher's work determining bats from authentic
real accounts really came into sharper focus around the presidential election.
(02:43):
Presidential election in the United States was a really weird
time online. Bad actors use social media to create chaos
and confusion, and a Senate inquiry found that no group
was targeted for this kind of disinformation more than black folks.
Bad actors what you social media accounts pretending often times
pretty badly to be black. If you listen to our
(03:04):
episode last season most Saffiica Hudson, you know exactly what
I'm talking about. It just created a lot of distrust
and confusion, which ultimately was the entire point. This is
around the time when Christopher really started to see the
impact that these kinds of disinformation tactics had on our
ability to meaningfully connect online, especially for black folks. After
(03:25):
the election, we realized like, hey, there were these fake accounts,
uh that were influencing conversations that you know, we're also
being used to target people of color to try to
swathe them away from Hillary Clayton and the Democrats. Um yeah,
I realized like, hey, there's a huge problem here. And
(03:47):
then we started having people who were calling each other
bots like if they didn't agree with each other. So
you know, if you came to my you know, my
Twitter feed and you're like, you know, hey something whatever,
and then I'm just like, I don't agree with you.
Then someone jumps in, you know that this person is
a bot or that person is a bot, and I
just thought it wasn't productive and it was counter I
(04:10):
mean it just for what social media is and what
we are supposed to use it for. I just thought
by everyone calling each other about because we did not agree,
that that just was adding to the problem. So, you know,
I set out to try to create a platform to
allow people to be able to identify the real accounts
(04:30):
from the fake accounts, you know, because I really don't
even though the name of the company is bought Sineal,
I don't like using the term bot that much because
it has morphed over time. Um And a lot of
the accounts now that we see are not really bots
per se. They are more human controlled accounts. Um. So
we like to say in authentic accounts. So how do
(04:52):
you actually use machine learning to distinguish an authentic accounts
from authentic accounts? Back in twenty seventeen, started work being
on the platform, really started doing the research, and you know,
in the beginning hit a roadblock because it's like, okay,
you know when you when you create these models, these
machine learning models, you have to train it and you
(05:13):
have to give an examples of quote unquote what's a
good account versus a bad account. So you know, my
opinion of a good account may be different from your
your opinion, and you know, my opinion of a bad
account might be different from yours and so forth. So
what I consider good may not be with other people
consider good or bad. Uh So, what I ended up
(05:35):
doing was using Twitter's UM terms of service there there
there you know, rules, and that was the guide like
whatever they considered what's breaking the rules and you know whatever,
that's what I would use as the you know, the
roadmap or the map whatever UM. So then started looking
(05:58):
for accounts that were considered good and consider bad and
trained the model and and did this over time and
at the same time building out the platform, and then
in launched it UM And I mean, I don't want
to say it was an overnight success, but people, you know,
pretty much flocked to it because it was something that
people were really dying for, because they really wanted to
(06:19):
know who they were interacting with. So there were already
a few tools out there to determine if an account
online as a BOT or not, but Christopher wanted to
go further. There were a couple of other, um, you know,
platforms or similar products out there there, but you know,
the way that they were designed, they were designed to
pretty much say like bot or not, you know, kind
(06:41):
of like old days hot or not, bot or not. Yeah,
you know, And I thought that was bad because it's
it's it's not black and white, it really isn't. And
so my system was more like a credit you know,
score system, where you have accounts that are rated normal,
satisfied three, disruptive, and problematic, obviously problematic being the worst,
(07:04):
you know, obviously like the lease worst or whatever. And
so people understood that right away. So they were able
to look at those reports that are generating when you
analyze an account and they're like, okay, I get this,
understand it. So it's not just you know, bot or not.
You know, we have a range of different scores. I
have been called a bot before if I've said something
(07:26):
that people a lot of people didn't agree with. Um
it's one of the reasons I have my camera on
for this interview. I was like, I just want to
make sure that he knows that he's talking to it
an actual black human who exists in the world. Do
you just see somebody on Twitter who is just not
using the language correctly? Like obviously at your Twitter feed
today and someone said someone had a tweet that said,
(07:48):
any time a black goes against what they're supposed to
be doing or doesn't doesn't support the Democrats, y'all say
it's a bot. And I'm thinking, I don't know any
other black people who would refer to another black person
as a black That doesn't sound right to me. And
so it's interesting how before we just had these sort
of cultural cues or language cues to help us understand
(08:11):
if this person is actually, you know, the black human
that they're purport purporting to be, And now we have
this tool that can really put a little bit of
of of data behind it. This is actually a persistent
problem on social media people pretending to be someone they're not.
Online journalist Wanna Thompson popularized the term black fishing, when
someone who isn't really black pretends to be black on
(08:33):
social media. And it doesn't just stop at race. It
can be all kinds of things. For instance, people pretending
to be medical professionals or doctors to spread vaccine misinformation.
And this person that you're talking about, we called it
black fishing, when someone pretends to be black, creates an account,
(08:53):
uses a black photo, and they try to persuade other people,
you know, in the community to do things by saying
certain things. So they would say, for example, I don't
like Joe Biden. You know, he's not he hasn't done
anything for the black community. You know, me being a black,
(09:15):
I don't find him to you know, have my values
or whatever. Um. So anyone reading that will say, wait,
you know, is that a typeo you know? Or did
this person actually get it raw? Um? And that applies
to a lot of different things. That that applies to
people who are pretending to be doctors who are telling
(09:37):
people not to take the vaccine, and another doctor reading
some of what they're tweeting would say, this makes absolutely
no sense. So so maybe to you and I, uh,
not being doctors, who may not spot that right away,
but a professional you know that does this for a living,
would say, hey, what you said just makes absolutely no sense.
There's no way you're a doctor. So you know, so
(10:01):
the same applies to like you said, when you know,
unfortunately someone is trying to pretend like they're black, Black
fools can usually spot that right away. Yeah, and I
also think I completely agree, And I think you gave
people a way to have just better conversations on social
media because we probably all had that experience of your
talking to somebody on Twitter and eventually you're like, this
(10:24):
person is not worth my time, This person is not
worth having a conversation with. This person is not interested
in having a thoughtful conversation. And I think you're to
you what you've done has given people a better framework
for when it's like this person is not worth engaging.
This person is misrepresenting themselves. This person is misrepresenting the
situation that they're that they're claiming to be an expert
(10:45):
on or claiming to have experience with. You know, not
every not every person on social media is worth your
time or like the person that you should be trying
to have a real conversation with. Ultimately, Christopher wants to
help create better social media experiences, one where people, especially
women of color, who we know are so often targeted,
don't have to be subjected to constant harassment just to
(11:06):
show up online. But what's happened on Twitter. There's also
the targeted harassment side of things, where a lot of
these in authentic accounts, UM, they purposely go after people
that are either you know, supporting an individual or you know,
they're talking about climate change or you know, whatever the
(11:27):
issue may be. And we see that a lot with women,
especially women of color. UM. You know, we're doing a
study now, research now on Kamala Harris. UM. We previously
did something on Megan Markle, and women of color are
seemed to be like the prime target for a lot
(11:50):
of these accounts. So we started building out too to
help with that. You know, we have an order blocker
that blocks accounts not only based on the Bosom rating,
but also it could be tailored to the individual. Let's
just say there's an emoji that a lot of these
accounts are using. I can't think of something right this second,
(12:11):
but uh, if if you want, you can block accounts
that are using that specific emoji or even specific keywords
if you wanted to. UM, you can block accounts that
are just recently created because, as you know, a lot
of times when they're doing the swarming when they're attacking,
they will just go and create a bunch of accounts
like right away and then spam you and attack you
(12:31):
with that. So you can actually auto block accounts that
were just recently created or don't have a lot of
followers or not, you know whatever. I mean, it can
be literally tailored to your taste. Um, so we thought
that was a lot better than just people using generic
blocklists or you know, using other products that just block
based on a list. You know you're blocking it, so
(12:54):
I should you know, that doesn't really work. I mean,
we are trying to make the platform form a place
where people can feel safe, you know, that they can
use our tools to I don't know, have a better
experience on Twitter and then hopefully on other platforms as
following the future. Let's a quick break ut her back.
(13:29):
I was baking though, Fisher literally looked me my eye
and said, in his language only Ukrainians, that's all that
if you're black, you should walk. That's Jessica Arecpo, a
Nigerian medical student and one of the estimated sixteen thousand
African students living in Ukraine. Around twenty Indian students also
(13:51):
live in the country. As the invasion of Ukraine intensified
we solve reports of non white people in Ukraine struggling
to get out of the country. The hashtag Africans in
Ukraine was used to amplify stories of Africans being pulled
off trains and busses not being allowed to flee in
favor of white Ukrainians by Ukrainian authorities. Doctor Imbagwu, a
(14:13):
twenty four year old doctor from Nigeria who lived in
western Ukraine, told The New York Times the Ukrainian border
guards were not letting us through. They were beating people
up with sticks and tearing off their jackets. They would
slap them, they would beat them, they would push them
to the end of the queue. It was awful. So
I need to make this really clear. It is absolutely
true that the people of color in Ukraine are being
(14:34):
mistreated during an active invasion because of racism, and it's disgusting.
The High Commissioner for Refugees from the United Nations confirmed
this in a statement. And really, you don't even need
to look to stories from folks on the ground to
see the way that racism against non white people in
Ukraine is playing out. This isn't a place with all
due respect, you know, like at Rock or Afghanistan, it
(14:55):
has seen conflict raging for decades. This is a relatively
civiliz relatively European I have to choose those words carefully,
to city where you wouldn't expect that or hope that
it's going to happen. But this clear racism also reveals
a really important, yet difficult to contend with reality about
how disinformation works, That it's often rooted in actual truth,
(15:18):
and bad actors inflame legitimate tensions during already tense moments
like this to create chaos and confusion at a climate
where nobody knows what to believe. So, while it is
absolutely true that non white refugees in Ukraine are facing
disgusting racism as they try to flee, it's also true
that inauthentic accounts and bad actors are cruelly using their
(15:39):
stories to inflame racial tensions and deepen existing divisions. And
what's even more disgusting is that we have a digital
media landscape that makes it really easy for them to
do this. So what are you seeing in terms of
a conversation online with regard to black people in Ukraine. First,
I would like to say that yes, there were of
(16:00):
you know, of color, not just black people, know they
were there were you know, Indian people, Brazilians as well
who did Um, who did face some discrimination, I guess
is how you would say it, because they were not
allowed to board busses. Now, the the pushback to that was, well,
(16:21):
you know where they were going, Um, they were not
allowed to enter that they had to go into like
another country or something like that. UM. So like if
they were going trying to go into Poland, for example,
there were black folks who were denied access. So that's true.
And there were people that were not allowed on buses
(16:42):
or pulled off buses and stuff like that. UM. Now
you have accounts that are popping up all of a sudden,
newly created accounts claiming to be black that were saying
things that we could not verify. You know that videos
that were not even from Ukraine that people started you know,
(17:04):
sharing that stuff. And we can clearly see that a
lot of these accounts were fake, they were inauthentic, you know,
using our technology, UM looking at you know what exactly
these accounts are saying. Because some of these accounts were
just spamming the same thing over and over and over.
And over again, and that's a clear sign of platform manipulation.
(17:27):
It's so awful for so many reasons, but a big
one is that it creates a climate where the actual
people of color fleeing for their lives have to work
that much harder to amplify their stories in a media
landscape awash with confusion and in authentic discourse. Students sharing
videos about their experiences in Ukraine on social media began
timestamping their videos and adding exact location codes to demonstrate
(17:49):
that they were actually real and authentic, and the fact
that they would even need to do this just to
be heard demonstrates how badly tech platforms have failed to
create a landscape that people can meaningfully turn to for
sharing and receiving information during a time of real crisis,
because they have to compete with inauthentic accounts and bad
actors who are using their very real trauma to manipulate people.
(18:14):
It's a complex situation. And then pointing it out, Christopher
face criticism that he was invalidating the reality of racism
actually fased by non white people in Ukraine. But even
that reveals a tough point about combating disinformation. Bad actors
will seiz on, moments of crisis, intention to inflame legitimate
pressure points that already exist in our communities, the kinds
(18:36):
of sensitive or highly charged topics that can be difficult
to discuss. So you know, it's our job to report
the truth, you know, published the truth, whether it defends
someone or not. And that's what we did. And of
course there were people that were just like, oh, you know,
you're perpetrating this thing. Is if it's just propaganda, you know,
our people are being left to die, And you're like, no,
(18:58):
that's not what we're doing at all. We're not saying
that this is not actually happening on the ground. But
when you have accounts that are trying to sow division,
who start trying to sow discord, excuse me, who are
trying to divide people, who are trying to make you know,
people of color not supportive of a country because of
some incidents that happened. Um, I mean, look, let's let's
(19:21):
let's be honestly, let's be real. There's racism everywhere. There's
racism here in the United States. You know. Unfortunately, I
can walk down the street and get stopped by a
car and got bid. I can get shot just because
of the color of my skin. But going back to
the actual fake accounts, they were clearly trying to manipulate
(19:41):
and we see this all the time unfortunately on social media,
black folks or targeted a lot um because you know,
whether it's Black Lives Matter, whether it's elections, you know,
they feel as if we're easily manipulated because you know,
matters of race. People get fired up. You know, people
(20:06):
are very you know, passionate when it comes to race.
It matters of race. So of course if you see
like people being denied access to buses, you're like, you know,
your first instinct is like, what the heck is going on?
Like I'm supporting this country and now you're treating my
people like like garbage, like what's happening? And then it
(20:27):
goes viral And that's what state actors want. They want
that they want to muddy up the waters. You know,
they want you to not support this country, not support Ukraine,
so they will take a little snippet of truth and
make it seem like a whole entire country is filled
with Nazis and people who hate black folks, and that's
(20:48):
just not true. Are their races in Ukraine of course
there there are. I mean, I'm they're like I said,
I'm from the United States. They're they're a bunch of
races here, and they're a bunch of races in the
UK and there are a bunch of racists everywhere. But
that doesn't mean that the whole entire country is racist.
That doesn't mean that because these people were not allowed
(21:08):
on the you know, the buses are not allowed entry
into a country, that that was the policy of the
actual country itself. Um, And that's what we were just
trying to, uh, you know, to to to convey to
people that, hey, look, be really careful about what you're sharing.
You can be upset about what's happening in Ukraine, you
could be upset about people not being acts allowed access
(21:30):
to buses and stuff like that, but you can also
be vigilant and not help, you know, escalate this situation
on social media. Yeah, and I think that that really
exposes a truth about disinformation and bad actors that I
say a lot, but this was a time where I
really felt it. You know, bad actors they exploit our
(21:53):
legitimate tensions and traumas and triggers to manipulate us. And
I know that when I saw these videos of black
folks and other folks of color, you know, not being
let on busses and all of this chaos, it triggered
something in me like that is that is a tension
point within me personally. Disinformation tends to be rooted in
some kind of legitimate truth, right, and that bad actors
(22:16):
they exploit that, those tensions, those pressure points, They exploit
that within people to manipulate us. And I definitely felt it.
I had to stop myself from you know, quickly retweeting
and and amplifying videos just because they had caused a
kind of emotional response from me. And I think that's
something that we need to really be super clear on
(22:36):
that bad actors they're very savvy. They know how to
manipulate issues that get people fired up, and they they
definitely found my issue, and you know, I think that
being really aware of that is key, and then also
really knowing the historical precedent, because you're absolutely right. I
think that a lot of bad actors and people who
are pushing disinformation just see black the black community in
(22:59):
the United States as easy fodder for manipulation. You know,
we know that in the election, there was no group
targeted for Russian interference on social media to medal in
the election more than black folks in the United States.
We know that a Senate inquiry confirmed that, and so
we've got to keep in mind there is a historical
precedent for you know, people seeing us as easy targets
(23:23):
for manipulation along the basis of race, and that that
bad actors are going to exploit things that are legitimate concerns,
like there are is legitimate anti blackness and racism happening
in Ukraine. I am sure of it. However, it's not
negating that to also keep in mind, and bad actors
are going to exploit that truth to try to manipulate us. Absolutely.
(23:48):
I mean, you're preaching to the choir here, um. And
that's what we try to We try to educate not
only know the black community, but we also try to educate,
you know, the white community as well, to let them
understand what's happening. Because still people don't realize even I
mean it's been several years now, don't realize just how
(24:08):
much platform manipulation is happening. They don't realize how much
targeted harassment is happening. Um. So that's why I try
to use my Twitter account as a teaching tool. UM.
And you know, whether it's you know, a celebrity that's
being attacked or an organization that's being attacked, you know,
I try to kind of rip the scab off and
(24:32):
and and and let people see because sometimes, you know,
I would have people ask like why are you amplifying this?
You know, and it's like the only way we're gonna
educate people, and and and the only way we're gonna
fix this is by educating people is showing them and
giving them a window into what's happening. Because a lot
of a lot of the researchers UM in my field
(24:55):
that do this, like a lot of times if they
publish a report, they don't even know publish the list
of accounts. We don't do that. We publish everything because
we want people to understand what's happening. So whether you know,
we are showing you know, pages of tweets, you know,
the accounts themselves. UM, we want people to be educated.
(25:19):
And you know, I'm asked all the time like how
are we going to fix this problem? And I'm like,
critical thinking is key here, UM, rethinking how we teach
our kids about you know, social media and and and
looking for you know, like, for example, if someone posts
something um and you're not you're not sure it's it's legitimate,
(25:43):
teaching our kids to research and find out if that's
you know, legitimate, taking just five minutes and trying to
find you know, other sources for this particular story. And
and I'm I'm gonna tell you right now, I have
seen journalists. These are professionals who retweet stories that are
completely fake. And I still, you know, it happened a
(26:05):
lot in and it's still happening in. Yeah. I mean
I have been guilty of it. I have to admit,
and and and I've been guilty of it before I
knew a lot about how this stuff works. Now, when
I see a story, I kind of have my bullshit
detect her up. There are a couple of things where
I'm like, oh, I don't know, a story that just
(26:26):
seems a little like a little too I kind of
put this. When I see a story that seems taylor
made for someone like me to share it, it almost
seems like it was crafted specifically for virality, my bullshit
detector goes up. Or I'm like, oh, this is just
a little too convenient that everything that that would prompt
(26:48):
someone like me to share is there. And so I
have gotten a lot smarter about that kind of thing now.
But a few years ago, I don't think we were
having conversations about, like, it's good to check you know,
your sources, check your sources. It's good to like verify
if something seems a little fishy to you, maybe google it.
You know, I don't think we were having conversations about
(27:10):
the importance of that kind of literacy online even just
a few years ago. We were not. We were and
and and it's good to see that we are having
those conversations. Um. You know, I look, one company can't
do it all, you know, I would love to see
more companies come into this space and be public about it,
because there are there are some companies that work for
(27:33):
like campaigns, UM and they do things behind the scenes,
and that's not helping. It really isn't. Because yes, you know,
it's good to like, if there's a campaign and there's
someone putting out disinformation, someone is helping to mitigate that disinformation.
But we need we need more people doing this publicly.
(27:53):
You know, we need workshops, We need people to understand,
like you said like, hey, check other sources. Um, we
wasn't have that conversation a few years ago. Hey, you know,
look at who you're engaging with, Look at who you're amplifying.
Is this person a state actor? Because there are there
are accounts that you know, fly under the wire for months,
(28:15):
sometimes years that are you know, they are fake and
they are state sponsored accounts, and they're just helping to
you know, whatever it may be, you know, whether it's
trying to help Republicans or trying to you know, pretend
like they are Democrats in the beginning and then kind
of switch up and say, oh, you know, I'm no
longer supporting the Democrats because of X, Y and c um.
(28:38):
You know, we see that a lot. So, you know,
I just think, I just think that as a society,
we need to start having these conversations more. After a break,
(29:04):
let's get right back into it. You really reveal something
about why I get so fired up about things like
in authentic accounts and disinformation is because we're not really
able to have we're not really able to view social
media to have the authentic, thoughtful, accurate, substitutive conversations that
we need to be happy and so I'm a black person.
(29:26):
I care deeply about the treatment of black folks, folks
of color, marginalized people, both here in the United States
and around the globe. That is something that I care
deep like my my entire life is about that. And
I am not able right now to have a conversation
on our largest social media platforms about the status of
(29:47):
the folks that I care about my own community around
the globe because of bad actors and disinformation. It's like,
and so I think that that's the thing I always
hit on, is that what we what what we all
was out on, is having a media ecosystem where the
conversations that we need to be having critically are are
able to be had. We don't have that right now.
(30:08):
You know if even you, like I see the pushback
that you get trying to make this point of like,
yes there is racism happening in Ukraine, of course, and
yes there are state actors trying to manipulate how we
respond to it. And people will respond to you saying like, oh,
you're negating racism or you're saying racism doesn't exist, and
(30:28):
it just goes to show that we are losing out
on having a media a digital media ecosystem where we
can have these conversations and where we can actually move
forward on these issues that are so critically important. Right,
I just want to get this in there. Mean, first thing,
we need legislation too. We we definitely and I hate
(30:51):
to say this, but we're going to need legislation to
help us. Um kind of you know, when this war,
because that's what we're in now. We're in a disinformation war. Um,
and the bad guys, I hate to say this, are winning.
They really are because it's really easy, really really easy
(31:13):
to you know, to have platform manipulation. It's really easy
to change opinions on social media. People do not understand
just how easy it is because something you said, Um,
you know, like I look at this tweet and it
almost seems like it's tailored for me. Man, it is,
(31:34):
it is. It is really easy. And I've done this experiment.
I've actually done this experiment. It's really easy to craft
a tweet to make it go viral. It's really easy
to craft a tweet to sparking emotion in a certain group. Um,
whether you are l g B t Q plus, whether
(31:56):
you are black, whether you're a woman, whether you're a male,
whether you're an insult I don't what you are. If
there are ways that you can craft tweets and if
you do it the right time, at the right time
of the day, and you use the certain keywords, it's
going to go viral. Okay, almost every single time, it's
going to go viral. Um. It's no different than marketing.
(32:19):
And there are there are people that are getting paid
a lot of money. Uh, you know, they're they're bad
actors to figure out ways of doing these things, and
you know, they have their systems on how to make
things go viral. How to you know, to manipulate this
group of people to do x y and z um.
So we need legislation number one UM to kind of
(32:43):
you know, I don't. I don't agree with this, this
whole thing that like everyone needs to be verified because
there are legitimate reasons why someone would not want to
be verified. So I'm actually not against anonymous accounts. However,
I am against accounts that are tending to be something else. So,
(33:04):
you know, legislation, for example, preventing people from creating accounts
for the sole purpose of platform manipulation could be one thing.
Because don't be mistaken, it's not just happening in Russia
or you know, some other far off place. You have
people here in the United States, groups of people that
are creating fake accounts to manipulate whether it's you know,
(33:27):
regarding elections, whether it's white supremacists that are trying to
so discord within the black community, whatever it may be.
So that should be illegal number one. Um. And then
the other thing is making platforms do more because they're
just doing the bear the bear minimum And we all
know this, anyone that's been on social media, you know,
(33:48):
for the past month, maybe um know that the platforms
are not doing enough. Um, So there needs to be
legislation to kind of force them to do more or
because why would they you know, why would Twitter, for example,
remove ten thousand accounts when they don't have to, because
that's money for them. When you think about the state
(34:11):
of our our media landscape, are you hopeful, like, like,
do you think it's a lost cause? Do you think
you know, it's just such a cess pool and these
platforms are going to do anything and we're never gonna
get useful legislation or are you hopeful that we'll get
somewhere to make it possible to have meaningful subset of change. Right. Um,
(34:34):
I think it's going to take a big event, a
big event, you know, maybe like a terrorist attack where
and I always give this this example. There's really nothing
stopping someone right now from using social media to to two. Say,
for example, I'm gonna give you an example here. Um,
(34:58):
let's say someone goes and they say, hey, yo, let's
get a group of people. We're gonna we're going to
make it look like that there are a bunch of
black folks that are going around New York City and
just stabbing people. And they go on social media and
(35:23):
they start posting this stuff, and you know, they even
have videos of black folks stabbing people. Now you got
but a bunch of Caucasian white folks. They're like, oh
my god, there are black folks that are going around
New York and they are stabbing people, you know, and
now they're walking down the street and they're nervous, and
all of this is a hoax. This whole entire thing
(35:44):
is a hoax. But it's going viral. It's going viral
on Twitter, it's going viral on Facebook, it's going viral,
and it's everywhere and it's all fake. I can tell
you right now. There's nothing stopping this from happening right now. Um,
because the platforms like Twitter and and and and they do,
you know, like when stuff starts to get out of hand,
(36:05):
they do take action, but they take action too late. Um,
so you may have an hour or two that goes
on before you know, goes by excuse me, before they
take action. Um, that's more than enough. And we've seen
this before in the past. It's you know, if there's
a mass shooting all of a sudden, you see like
the same picture from like the last five mass shootings
(36:26):
where they claim it's this guy or whatever, and then
that goes via, oh is this guy? Well, there's not
anything really right now stopping anyone from you know, creating
like a fake attack, which I will call it then
you know, in a sense of terrorist attack where you're
creating this this this this this fake you know the
thing that's happening, and people are getting terrified because they think,
(36:47):
oh my god, like they're black folks that are going around,
you know, they're they're fed up and they're stabbing or
killing white folks and what are we gonna do and
all this other stuff. Um, and that's just like a
weird example that I gave, but you can clearly see
how platform manipulation could go from something starting on Twitter
or Facebook or wherever and then spilling into the real world.
(37:08):
And we got in we actually have real real world
examples of that. Um you know, back in going into
seventeen with the whole um Pizza Gate thing, where you know,
you have that that individual who really thought Hillary Clinton
was sex trafficking kids. Then we have won six Um
(37:34):
a lot of that was organized online and it's spilled
into the real world and you got these crazy people
that were storming the capitol, you know. So there's nothing
stopping you know, someone else from doing this. An event
like that, well then prompt legislators here in the United
States to say enough is enough, we need to do something. Um.
(37:57):
So I gave a long answer to say that, Yes,
I do think legislation is coming. I do believe that
things are going to get better. I do I think eventually,
you know, people are gonna just say enough is enough
and things are going to move in the right direction.
(38:17):
And I do believe that platforms are going to be
forced to have to take action. UM So, you know,
the question, I think the real question is not if
what win? Are we talking another year? Are we talking
five years? I don't. I don't have hopefully sooner rather
than later, because I want to be out of business.
I want bots and to be out of business. I
(38:40):
want to be able to retire and not have to
deal with you know, inauthentic accounts and bots and stuff.
I mean, wouldn't it be great if we didn't have
to wait for some sort of you know, calamitous events,
and people with power to make this change would just
do it, Like, wouldn't that be great? Well, you know,
(39:00):
something really quickly and we didn't talk about this, but
really really quickly. So all right, So the platforms have
been blocking you know, Russia and you know, they've been
blocking certain areas and things of that of that nature,
and I've had people reach out to me. I've had
journalists reach out and say, hey, have you noticed a
(39:24):
decline and like trolling like this, things seem a bit quieter,
you know, all you guys noticing this. And I tweeted
about that earlier and I said the short answers, Yes,
there's definitely a decline over the last you know, like
let's say, to the last three or four days of
just like the vitriol and the trolling, I mean, because
(39:46):
we were just seeing like a lot of stuff regarding
Biden and Biden you know, he can't remember when he
did yesterday, you know, just nonsense like that, and we've
definitely seen a decrease. Now, we've also seen an increase
in accounts praising Vladimir Putin, and we've seen you know,
(40:07):
fake accounts once again saying that Ukrainians are racist and
it's a racist country. But overall, we've definitely seen a
decline in the trolling. You know, And I made a
joke not on Twitter, this is personally and I'm just like, God,
I wish it was like this every single day, Like
I wish that you can go onto social media and
(40:29):
actually interact with people and not have to deal with
the constant trolling. So you we we we were getting
a glimpse of what life could be like if the
platforms were actually to take this more seriously. And we
deserve that. We deserve to be able to go on
to our largest communications platforms and have a conversation without
(40:53):
being trolled, without being harassed, Like we deserve that everybody deserves, absolutely,
especially women and women of color, because at the end
of the day, and we've provided data on this. Women
are at the top of the list in terms of
people who are constantly targeted and attacked, and women of
(41:14):
color are the number one. UM and it's and platforms
do need to do better at at at you know,
curtailing a lot of this stuff that's happening. But you're
absolutely right. First thing, a platform like Twitter. Sometimes I
get really disappointed with Twitter because Twitter, for me, you know,
(41:36):
it's people will talking about like Facebook and you know, Instagram.
I think Twitter is the most powerful platform on the planet.
I believe that to my core. And the reason behind
that is because unlike other social networks, Um, Twitter can
drive news cycles. You know Twitter, you know, I can
(41:58):
put something out on Twitter into read something and it
could be picked up by a major prop uh you know,
outlet or publication or whatever. Um. You know, Joe Biden
can go right now, President Biden can go and tweet
something out about Ukraine and it will go viral. I
mean it could literally start a war depending on what
he you know, tweets out. So you know, people are
(42:21):
using Twitter and journalists and world leaders are using Twitter
to get news and information and everything out and unlike
Facebook and Instagram, it's a platform for in a hub
for information period. So you would think with you know,
(42:42):
with a platform like this, that the people on Twitter
would say, hey, you know something, we really need to
make this place a lot better because we're like where
people go for serious news. You know, a lot of
people don't even go to that. They don't even have
like cable anymore, or you know, they're not even like,
you know, going and buying newspapers. Unfortunately, they're going to
(43:05):
Twitter to get their news. So you would think the
folks that Twitter would say, hey, it's time for us
to really take our own platform seriously, Like they're they're
I hate saying this, and and and there's nothing wrong
with the n f T s, but I'm just like,
why are you focusing on n f T like profile
images where you should be focusing on the rampid disinformation
(43:30):
and harassment on your platform? Like who asks for n
f T profile pictures? Literally every time they released something,
I'm like, who asked for this? Why don't you focus
on You've got a lot on your plate in terms
of making a fun, safer and better, Like, why don't
you focus on that? I don't understand it. Like when
I saw that, I was just like, who asked for this?
(43:54):
You know? So I mean, look, I understand what my
needs may be and what your needs may be. Maybe
a little bit different from what the developer needs maybe, um,
but they need to really sit down with folks and
get an idea of what their platform really is about
to other people. And I know, look, not everyone uses
(44:14):
Twitter for news and things like that. There are people
on there who are just doing their thing. I get that.
But Twitter can definitely drive new cycles and because of that,
the folks that Twitter need to to to do more,
you know, they definitely need to do more. Well hopefully.
I think that your work is really creating the conditions
(44:36):
for them to really see that. I think that's very
clear to me. And it sounds like you don't agree
you know something. Um, I'm sorry and I completely apologized
to cut you off. Um. I think I think our
work for you know, the general republic and journalists and
stuff like researchers. I think they look at our work
(45:00):
and obviously want us to continue, and they, you know,
value what we're doing. Twitter on the other hand, UM,
I think we're kind of a thorn sometimes in their side,
because we expose a lot of things that they probably
don't want to be exposed. Um. So you know, I'm
not saying Twitter would love for us to disappear. I'm
(45:20):
not going to say that because I do believe they
also find value in what we're doing. Um, but I
think they probably would like it if we're like less
effective at what we're doing. Something tells me you don't
have any plans to become less effective? No, no, not
at all, not at all. Well, Christopher, this has been
(45:42):
such a good conversation. Where can people keep up with
all of your work? Oh? Um? Well, first thing, you know,
our website is bought Bot Sentinel s E N T
I in e L dot com. Um, they can follow me.
I'm at see bou z y. Um that's Twitter. And yeah,
(46:06):
I mean, look like I said, I use my account
to try to educate people, and you know, I'm I'm
very vocal about things. Um, I don't hold my tongue. Um.
So you know, if you want to follow me on
Twitter and learn more about this stuff and other issues
as well, you can do that. But if you're just
more focused on our technology, you can go to the website.
(46:29):
People of Color in Ukraine deserve to make their voices
heard without having to compete with disinformers and bad actors
on social media platforms to do so. And we all
deserve a digital media landscape that can be used to
get authentic, accurate information about what's happening in our world,
especially during a crisis. We all deserve better. You can
help support black students in Ukraine and find more resources
(46:52):
that Black Women for Black Lives. Go to Black Women
for Black Lives dot org or click the link in
the show description and we'll be continuing the conver station
around what's happening in Ukraine later this week. Got a
story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want
to say hi, You can be us at Hello at
tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for
(47:14):
today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls
on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's
a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan
Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as our producer,
and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm
your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,
rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts
(47:34):
from I heart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you
(47:55):
liked this episode, help us out by subscribing. You can
also support the show by by merch at tangodi dot
com slash store and sign up for my brand new
newsletter at tangodi dot com slash Newsletter That's t A
n G O t I dot com
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