Why We’re Fighting About Self Checkout – Best of TANGOTI

Bridget and Mike had conflicting and surprisingly strong feelings about self checkout machines. And it turns out, listeners do, too! We got more emails about this seemingly low stakes topic than any other. Why did this touch a nerve?! We don’t know but there’s something there, and we’re here for it. We read some listener emails, which make great points for and against. Are these machines dystopian symbols of our crumbling social connectedness? Or are they convenient devices for buying groceries, and maybe the real dystopian symbols were the capitalist overlords we met along the way? You be the judge!

Self-Checkouts Often Inaccessible to Disabled Shoppers:  https://foodinstitute.com/focus/self-checkout-often-inaccessible-to-disabled-shoppers/

LA Times report on self checkouts and loneliness (paywalled): https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-08-28/some-skip-self-checkout-to-combat-loneliness-build-human-connection

TikTok Lawyer explains why you should avoid using self-checkouts in stores: https://scoop.upworthy.com/lawyer-explains-why-you-should-avoid-using-self-checkouts-in-stores-576190-576190-576190-576190

Washington Post piece: Dear grocery store owners: I don’t work for you! https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/31/rick-reilly-self-checkout-rebellion/

Walmart reveals it's tracking checkout theft with AI-powered cameras in 1,000 stores: https://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-tracks-theft-with-computer-vision-1000-stores-2019-6

Feeling lonely? Too many of us are. Here’s what our supermarkets can do to help: https://theconversation.com/feeling-lonely-too-many-of-us-are-heres-what-our-supermarkets-can-do-to-help-211126 

See

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, So it's the holiday season, and that means we're
all spending more time in stores than we'd probably like
to be spending, and inevitably that means coming face to
face with self checkout. Now, I hate self checkout, but
producer Mike kind of likes it. So today we're visiting
a conversation that we had about our very different feelings

(00:20):
on scanning our own groceries and what self checkout says
about convenience control and who's really doing the work. There
are no girls on the Internet. As a production of
iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge Todd, and this is

(00:41):
there are no girls on the Internet. Okay. So, Mike,
as you know, in our last news roundups, you and
I got a little bit heated about our respective thoughts
on so self checkout kiosks in retail stores. I was surprised.
I thought, certainly everybody hates these things as much as
I do. I was surprised to find that was not

(01:02):
the case. You had a different position. So my position
was that those self checkout kiosks in Target, Walmart, grocery stores, whatever,
they generally need to involve a human to work properly
I don't think they're that much more efficient or that
much more fast. And I also didn't think the old
system of just human cashiers was that bad, although I

(01:22):
have come to sort of update that position since hearing
the feedback that listeners have. So that is my position.
When I sat down to do that episode, I was
surprised to find that you have a completely different position.
Would you like to articulate it?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Sure, it's not completely different because your first point that
the machines require a human to operate them, we agree
on that. I think everyone agrees that a human still
needs to be involved even if it's a self checkout.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
However, we disagree.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
That I think that those self checkout machines or some
sort of self checkout system have a place in polite society,
and that they are not inherently bad. They are not destroying,
you know, the fabric of what makes us who we are.
They are just a useful tool that can help us

(02:13):
check out with our items.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
So that is something that I want to get into
today because that episode was just a you know, one
story of a larger news round up with other stories,
and so I wanted to revisit the issue and highlight
a few of the angles that we didn't have time
to get into, and also hear from some of you
listeners on your thoughts on self checkouts versus human checkouts.
The thing that you just said about whether or not

(02:36):
self checkout is sort of tearing at the fabric of
who we are as people. For whatever reason, I realized,
after doing some deep thought that I carry that as
like a worldview, and it's a worldview that I carried
completely unchallenged until doing this episode. Do you know what
I mean? I just automatically assumed, well, certainly, this is
a sign of society and decay, And doing this episode

(02:59):
was the first time that I really had to step
back and challenge why that was an automatic assumption on
my part.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
I I also brought a lot of unchallenged assumptions to
this conversation. And I really appreciate the listeners who wrote
in because some of them had some really like thoughtful
and insightful things to say that I hadn't thought about it.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
I think you hadn't thought about.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
And one of the other interesting things about this story is,
like you said, it was just one story of a
news roundup, like kind of a throwaway, but like it
turned out that you and I both had pretty strong
opinions about it, and listeners did as well.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
And I think this might be the.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Segment that has received like the most listener feedback of
anything that we've ever done on this show, so that
it's launching it in twenty twenty, which is surprising because
it's such a I don't know, I don't want to
say a non issue, but like you know, at the
presidential debate stage, they're not talking about self checkout machines.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
You know they should be.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Maybe they should, maybe they'd win some votes, but maybe
it's a dangerous issue.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
But it's not like life or death, right, There's something
sort of mundane about it, But for some reason, we
all have a lot to say about it. And I
guess I've been thinking about why that is, you know,
is it the universe and universality of it, Like every
person can relate to everybody buys groceries. The question of
which line do I get in is just one of
a thousand tiny decisions that we have to make every

(04:24):
day that is like sort of exhausting and like sort
of low stakes, but also like choosing wrong could mean
the difference of like ten minutes of standing in line,
which is like the worst thing that could possibly happen
to a person when they're standing in line.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
So there's a lot here.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
I felt so strongly about this issue that I was
willing to pull on my boots and go out into
the snow at six pm just to prove you wrong
about my self checkout feelings. And yeah, I completely agree
with you this. We've never gotten this level of passioned
feedback from folks of all the episodes that we've done.
So let's get into some of these issues that we
didn't have time for in that episod. So one big

(05:01):
issue that I definitely want to start with is the
fact that I didn't know this self checkout aisles are
not generally very accessible. I read a story about a
woman who was visually impaired and she was trying to
use the self checkout, couldn't see the screen well enough
to check out, asked for help from the clerk, and
the clerk ended up just moving her to the human
checkout line instead, And so it set up the system

(05:23):
where shoppers with disabilities basically could not use the system
at all, which became a lawsuit the National Federation of
the Blind sued Walmart, arguing that the company had violated
the Americans with Disabilities Act by excluding blind people from
using the service in the way that it was intended
independently and privately. So a federal judge in Maryland did

(05:43):
end up ruling in Walmart's favor. Walmart maintained that its
self checkout system is accessible because staff are trained to help,
but if disabled customers have to ask per assistance, not
only will the transaction likely take longer, they also lose
the option to keep their purchases private. Privacy is a
reason why someone might use all checkout over a human checkout.
So this benefit of self checkout being able to like

(06:05):
keep whatever you're buying private, is just not being offered
to all shoppers equally. This I found so interesting. So
the Food Institute spoke to Nicki Shaw, who is the
US operations manager at Storm Interface, a company that creates
assistive technology products at Taco Bell and McDonald's, and Nicky said,
having the option to check out independently is unfortunately not

(06:25):
available to all customers because of inaccessible point of sale,
which is like the machines that do the checking out
by denying some customers this option. What message is this
retailer sending to those customers. I think that's such a
good point, Like, it just sounds like accessibility issues can
be a big thing with self checkout if not everybody
can use them equally, which it sounds like, is what's

(06:46):
going on.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah, that is a good point.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
We're thinking about it, and you know, I have to
wonder if the companies who make these devices and systems
were being more mindful of accessibility, would that lead to
devices that work better for everyone?

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Right?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's often something that is seen in I know, at
least like software design, that when you really focus on
making things accessible for a particular population that has specific needs,
the benefits are much broader than those people, and you
end up with a nicer, better functioning system for everyone. Absolutely,
and also people with disabilities should be able to use them.

(07:28):
It's interesting to think about what that might look like.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, but I really agree with Nicki Shaw that our
retailers saying that only certain shoppers get the benefit of
privacy at self checkout, And I think that's a fair
question to ask, Like they probably wouldn't say that because
that would have to they would be admitting that they're
violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. But it's a fair

(07:51):
question to ask, like some shoppers get the ability to
use self checkout to privately check out and others just don't.
Is that what you're saying. So we talked in that
episode about how self checkout might increase theft. However, we
really didn't get into kind of my biggest concern around theft.
Like retailer theft is not an issue that I feel

(08:12):
deeply strong about. It doesn't like move me. However, when
I was talking about theft, I don't think we got
into it. One of the things I wanted to talk
about is the potential risk to shoppers being accused of
theft from using self checkout, even if they didn't actually
steal anything or just like misscanned or forgot to scan
something legitimately by mistake. Right. So the reason why I

(08:34):
want to bring this up, I'll say this, take this
with a massive grain of salt, because I did see
it on TikTok, and like I wasn't able to, you know,
confirm everything this TikToker said. However, I did see this
TikTok from Carrie Jerrigan, who is a criminal defense attorney
and a TikTok personality who warned that she doesn't think
that anybody should use self checkout because it is very
easy to be accused of retail theft, even if you

(08:57):
just made a mistake or didn't steal anything at all. Basically,
she says that because people who are intentionally stealing from
self checkout are really good at it, like they've really
sharp like honed their tactics, and I guess it's difficult
to catch at this point. Because of that, retailers have
no sympathy for anybody who makes just like a common
mistake with their self checkout. Retailers are essentially focusing on

(09:20):
people who maybe forgot to scan that big thing of
coke that you put the under the shopping cart or whatever,
or people who legitimately didn't steal anything, and then blaming
those people for inventory loss. So this attorney says that
retailers will later check their inventory and if they come
up short, they will go after people who made a
legit transaction of that I am, she says, so they

(09:41):
will begin watching hours and hours of video to see
the last person who checked out with the Mario Lego set.
Because they're two Mario Lego sets short and for some
reason they pinpoint that they think you did it. And
because of who these big box stores are, they usually
have to present very little evidence to get an affidavit
for warrant signed. The charges that could land you up
to a year in jail get filed, and then you

(10:02):
are fighting for your life trying to determine what day
you were at Walmart and what all you bought. I
know that, like I immediately crumple my receipt up and
put it in my pocket of my winter code, and
then like hang it up in storage forever. So if
somebody ever was like, can you provide a receipt for
what you bought at Walmart two months ago, the answer
would be absolutely not. I would not be able to

(10:24):
provide any proof of that transaction.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, definitely not. I would think they were joking if
they asked me, right.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
And so that TikTok was probably the first time that
I ever started thinking deeply about self checkout and sort
of like what it means. I don't have any data
on this, but it wouldn't be a massive surprise to
me to find that that kind of enforcement was not
being equally applied. I would have no trouble believing that

(10:52):
some people are being looked at a little bit harder
when it comes to that kind of thing. I also
should say, you know, in case folks don't know, like
when you do you check out with self checkout, like
you are being video recorded the entire time, So you know,
they definitely can pull back video footage. And I'm sure
it probably wouldn't be hard for a Target or a
Walmart to be like, oh, we think this person might
have stolen something and then provide video evidence that doesn't

(11:16):
really show anything to get that warrant signed.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely assume when I'm in Target
that I'm being like videotaped all the time, especially at
self checkout. I would be so shocked if they were
to contact me like weeks or months after leaving. That
seems so surprising. I'm curious how often that happens.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
So I was too you know, I just saw this
one TikTok from a lawyer. I did confirm she is
a lawyer, but you know, I was like, this is
really happening. So a deep Google search did bring up
a few posts of people on legal message boards claiming
that they were used of stealing from using self checkout
when they hadn't actually sold, and that they ended up
needing to deal with like lawyers fees, and like it

(11:58):
took lots of time to sort it out. So it
does kind of seem like this might be an issue
that's happening. And ultimately this kind of gets at one
of my biggest beefs with self checkout, the implication that me,
as the shopper, should be the one who is tasked
with its responsibility in making sure that everything is scanned correctly,
and like I'm paying the amount I'm supposed to pay.

(12:19):
Like I know that people like to shit on retail employees,
but I have better retail employee. It is important work.
Those jobs exist for a reason, and so like, I
don't know that we should be so quick to just
outsource those jobs to the very same people that we
like can't even trust to put their shopping carts away
consistently when they go grocery shopping and just trust that

(12:40):
the populace is going to be able to do this correctly.
Like I'm not trained at it. I might be distracted.
I'm not going in thinking, you know, listening carefully to
these beeps and what actually gets beeped and put in
the bag that is a that is something that is
that if I do incorrectly, I could wind up with
legal fees and pork costs or whatever. That does not
sound like a great sat up to me.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah it doesn't. But you know, again, I am curious
how many cases there are like this where someone legitimately
made some sort of mistake or error where they thought
they had paid for a thing but they didn't pay
for it, and then they end up like getting charged
with theft. Maybe it is happening a lot. I don't know,

(13:23):
but I guess a lot of this debate again circles
back in the most low stakes way possible to like
what kind of society do we want to live in?

Speaker 3 (13:31):
And it doesn't seem completely.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Far fetched to me that like adult shoppers should understand that,
like you have to pay for the things that you
want to take out of the store, and like operate
this machine in a way that makes that how it
goes down right, Like it's yeah, maybe I haven't like
had a training in this software, but like at the Giant,
I've used those shelf checkouts like hundreds, if not thousands

(13:59):
of times, and like any other piece of software.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, it takes.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
A little bit of like experience to try to figure
out how to work it, but you know it's achievable.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
I don't want this to devolve into another argument.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
I know, I know, I hold every every statement is
an opportunity to get into it.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Well, so I agree with you on the surface, right that, like, yeah, people,
you shouldn't just go into Target and expect to just
walk out with stuff that you haven't paid for all
the like, do I really am I really crying? Like
Target has plenty of money? Am I really like crying
tears for Target?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
It's not like we're talking about that CBS and Columbia Height.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
That's right, the C's where everything's free.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, just take what you want, everything's free.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
But like, I just think that efficiently checking out you
do have to bring a level of awareness that I
don't always have when I go into a Target because
I'm not thinking of going into work, and so like
if you're not, if I often when I shop, I'm
listening to music or podcasts in my headphones, I'm not
necessarily listening for the beep beep beep of every item.

(15:09):
It is conceivable that you could put something in your
bag and not hear the beep if you're like a
new parent who hasn't had any sleep and you're distracted
and your phone's going off and the kid is crying. Like,
I don't know that this is a widespread thing, but
I do think there are scenarios where perhaps that is
a burden that a consumer who is not at work

(15:31):
should not have to shoulder when they go in to
like pick up some items at Target, particularly if that
burden could wind up with you having legitimate legal trouble
over it.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, these are two separate issues, both worthy of debate
and discussion. You know, is it ethical to ask shoppers
to scan their own items? And separately, should people be
prosecuted when they make legit mistakes? Seems like clearly the
answer to that second question is.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Is no, Oh yeah, a thousand percent. So do you
remember Andy Rooney.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
All the time? Every day? I miss him so much.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
So for people who don't know who Andy Rooney is,
God rest his soul. Andy Rooney used to be on
sixty Minutes. He had a segment which that was literally
just him like complaining for twenty minutes, Like I will
never forget a segment where he just walks around a
grocery store and like picks up fruits that he doesn't like,
and it's like candalopes. Who needs them? And meanwhile I'm
like riveted. I'm like, oh, this is great TV. But

(16:31):
there is a piece in the Washington Post that could
have been written by the spirit of Andy Rooney. It
is like, it is like one of those style pieces
called Dear grocery store owners, I don't work for you.
The whole thing is snarky as hell, but this is
the thing I wanted to sort of tease out. The
piece reads, dear grocery store owners, have you seen me
in the break room? No, there's a reason I don't

(16:52):
work for you. I don't want to work for you.
I was bad at it as a middle schooler, and
I'm worse now. And then he goes on to say,
a lot of stores position eight receipt checker to see
whether people actually paid for all the stuff they have.
Wait a second, you set up this system, You made
us do all of this, So now that we've slogged
our way through our temp job with zero training, they're
going to audit us. And I think that that kind

(17:14):
of gets at something where nobody asked your average consumer
whether or not this is a dynamic they wanted to do.
I guess you have the choice when you get into
the self checkout line or the human line. Although at
our target, oftentimes if you go in there late at night,
there is no human option, is just self checkout. You
and I both know this to be true.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
No, I don't know what's going on with the human
cashier lines at that target.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
They are a checkout option of last resort for me.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
So you're like, I would never, rarely am I dealing
with the human line at.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
That specific target unless something has gone wrong.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Absolutely, But that thing that happens after you do self
checkout at some big box retailers, where then you have
to show them your receipt and they have to check
to see and maybe they have to put like a
little marker thing on it, that has been a source
of concert for the public for a while. You've probably
seen videos of people like refusing to show their receipt.
Apparently from what I have read, you know, I'm no lawyer,

(18:08):
this is not legal advice. But you don't actually have
to stop and have that interaction with the person who
is like, can I see your receipt. I think that
the fact that that is a moment of frustration for
so many people, I think gets at what this Washington
Post piece is talking about. That people feel like, well,
you asked me to scan out my stuff, and now
you don't even trust me to do it. Like, either
you trust me or you don't.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
This is one spot where you and I see eye
to eye because I hate that, you know, I've a
I hate people like stopping me and you know, having
this interaction with a security person who is acting like
a copy even though they're not.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
I hate that.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
And then they want me to like take all my
stuff out of my bag. I take a lot of
care when I pack my bags. And when I'm like
done with the checkout and carrying my fully packed bags,
I'm like right to carry them home. I'm not ready
to imprompt to take all the contents out and show
them to some security goon h to check me.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
So I agree with you there.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
I don't understand why they can't be doing that checking
with all of the cameras that they've got showing me
from like five different angles while I'm checking out, Like
if they don't see me stealing something when you know
when I'm actually doing it, why just do like these
these random checks down the line.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Don't like it, So.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Let's talk about that. Because retail chains are investing a
lot of money on like, very serious kind of creepy
surveillance technology, and so it does seem to wit it
if you have all of this technology to then be
like and then you have to go through this little
indignity of showing me your receipt and opening your bag
on top of it, it does seem a little much.
So Walmart uses what internally they call the mist scan detection,

(19:52):
which they say helps detect when an item lands in
a shopping bag without being scanned. And so they're basically
these AI powered visual scanners and cameras that are at
both the self checkout register and the registers run by
the store cashiers. There was at least at some point,
use of facial recognition technology in Walmart. In twenty twenty two,
Walmart faced a lawsuit that was seeking class action status

(20:15):
a legend that Walmart violated Illinois as Biometric Privacy Act
by improperly using cameras and advanced video surveillance systems, as
well as software and databases provided by the facial recognition
company Clearview AI. So Walmart spokesperson says that they were
just testing out facial recognition technology that they weren't actually
like rolling it out in the stores. But it does

(20:37):
sound like all parties agree that this facial recognition technology
was being used. We've already done so many episodes on
why that technology is janky, faulty, racist, sexist, Like it
just don't work really is what it is. And so
if that's the technology that you're kind of counting on
or flirting with to deter theft, it really presents a

(20:58):
whole host of issues. Is because because it's really just
not really reliable.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, facial recognition, as we talked about on a bunch
of episodes, is like bad news reinforces a lot of
bad disparities, certainly in this context when it's you know,
one step away from somebody being charged with a crime. Yeah,
And you know the point that it's a lot of
money in these invested in these systems, Yeah, can't argue

(21:26):
with that.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
And that's sort of one of my questions Slash Theories
is that it just said, this sounds like a lot
of investment in surveillance technology, and I feel like if
this is the level of surveillance technology that you need
to make self checkout work, then there is a problem,
like and I can't so, first of all, logistically, I

(21:47):
cannot imagine that the costs of investing in that kind
of technology apparatus is not being passed down to the
consumer in some way. I don't have any inside knowledge
of that. I just I have to assume that's the case.
You know, how it's now becoming clear how much retailers
lied about retail theft and how much it was hurting
their stores. And I think that they did that to

(22:07):
justify really cracking down on surveillance, really making the shopping
experience worse for consumers, and being like, well, it's not
our fault, it's crime. I wonder if there's some aspect
of that going on here, Like part of me wonders if,
for whatever reason, Walmart really wants to be investing in
this kind of surveillance technology and they're using self checkout

(22:30):
as a way to justify that. I's like, oh, well
we have self checkout now that increases theft or go
we have to have this very involved surveillance technology in
all of our stores. I just wonder because it's such
a huge investment in very serious surveillance technology that I
don't know how it makes sense to have it otherwise.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. We were doing some
research for this follow up episode here. One of the
things I came across was somebody who had worked in
software building a bunch of this type of surveillance stuff

(23:11):
that grocery stores, big box retailers could use to have
like scanners and AI trackers following people around in the
store to try to reduce theft.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
And they made the exact same point.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
This was a person who had built those technologies who
said that like all of them didn't work, were janky,
and were extremely expensive and not justified by the cost.
Like not, according to them, it was not even closed.
So the idea that the reason retailers are pushing for
this stuff is to justify increased surveillance. We see examples

(23:47):
all the time of people in positions of power making
decisions that cost them money just so they can maintain control. Right,
Like just last week we were talking about Anna Wintour
shuddering Pitchfork, even though it was profitable because there was
like rumblings of unionization, right like killing a powerful, well

(24:09):
liked brand just to like maintain that control. And so
spending a bunch of money on surveillance equipment, even though
it doesn't pay back in money, the owner gets to
like feel that level of control.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Let's take a quick break at our back. Something about
self checkout automatically to me feels like a dystopian surveillance

(24:45):
situation where we're getting away from what makes us humans
and relying more on technology, and like part of that
for me was the assumption that self checkouts are making
us lonelier or like has something to do with the
threads of society and humanity. That was an assumption that
I made, not based on any kind of facts or

(25:06):
research or reading that I'd done about it. It just
to me stood to reason that if we are in
a loneliness epidemic, especially for older folks, which the Surgeon
General released a report about this, the Threat of Social
Isolation recently, and like it is a damning report. If
that is happening, then certainly the rise of technology like
self checkouts is making it worse. So is that actually

(25:26):
the case? Well, you tell me, I read this report
in the Los Angeles Times that suggests that the US
is in the middle of this loneliness and isolation epidemic,
and that self checkouts are actually worse in the situation.
The Times report talks about the value of warm, low
stakes relationships like that between a shopper and a cashier,
especially for older people. They spoke to University of Michigan

(25:48):
psychology professor Tony Antonusci, who said that these kinds of
connections are a critical tool for maintaining emotional wellbeing later
in life as social circle shrink. So some supermarkets have
actually taken in ten steps to use the shopping experience
at their store to combat loneliness through chatty lines. Jumbo,
a grocery store chain in the Netherlands, has Katskasa, or

(26:10):
the chatty checkout line for shoppers who are not in
a hurry and actually want to have a conversation with
the clerk. Jumbo's chief commercial officer explained to the Conversation saying,
many people, especially the elderly, sometimes feel lonely. As a
family business and supermarket chain, we're the heart of society.
Our shops are an important meeting place for many people,
and we want to play a role in identifying and

(26:30):
reducing loneliness. So The first of one of these lanes
was so successful that the family owned company started rolling
out these chatty slow checkout lanes in two hundred of
its stores. Not only were customers really responding positively to it,
but this situation also apparently appealed to the employees. They
are trained to recognize signs of loneliness and come up

(26:51):
with local initiatives to combat social isolation. The lanes weren't
just big with older folks, but all shoppers of all
ages seem to really get a kick out of them.
So this is nice, and it sounds like it's working,
and it sounds like it's a needed thing, And I
really like hats off to Jumbo for startings initiatives. But
I just don't know if a retail cashier should be

(27:11):
shouldering the burden of staving off what sounds like a
real crisis of loneliness for people. In this Surgeon General's
report on loneliness that I mentioned, the search in general
lays out this like six point plan for combating loneliness,
and it's things like investing more in volunteer organizations or
religious groups, or policies around public trains or education or

(27:34):
physical spaces like parks and green spaces and library so
like more robust public infrastructure. Yes, I love public infrastructure. However,
here in the US, I don't think that like a
polite chatty clerk can really take the place of meaningful
investment in these kinds of social goods. Like I almost
feel like I like what they're doing with these chatty lanes,

(27:55):
and it does seem like it's helping. So I don't
want to make it seem like I'm pooh pooing that,
but I think that it's a lot to ask of
a retail cashier who is like their job is to
ring you up and be polite. I don't know that
we should be shouldering those folks with this burden of
easing something that clearly is related to a fraying social

(28:15):
goods infrastructure. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
I have a lot of thoughts about this.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
One of them is that that Jumbo chain sounds really cool.
I would love to go check out one of their
chatty lines next time I'm in the Netherlands. Whenever that
might happen, I'm definitely gonna do it. It sounds like
a really nice thing that that grocery store chain has
chosen to do for its community. That feels like the
sort of I don't know, Jimmy Dean movie feel good

(28:39):
capitalism story that if only the world were more like that,
things would be a lot better. Maybe it is like
that in the Netherlands, I don't know, but it's not
like that here in the US, right Like, I think
there are a lot of differences. For one thing, those
cashiers in the Netherlands, they have subsidized healthcare, they have
just a bunch of other social safety net things. They

(29:00):
probably have a much higher salary, I have to assume
than their counterparts here in the US. I was looking
into what cashiers make in the US, and like, you know,
I used to work hourly wage jobs, but it's been
a while and people are making ten dollars an hour,

(29:22):
right like that, that's just like not a lot of money.
And then to expect those people to shoulder this burden
like you were talking about, of chatting with strangers, in
making elderly folks feel connected, like those are really virtuous
things to do. But for somebody who's working like three
jobs sixty hours a week to like scrape by, that

(29:45):
feels like it's really asking a lot. And that context
of what is the experience like for that employee, that cashier,
I feel gets left out of a lot of these
arguments that we saw about like oh it self, checkouts
are making us all isolated. We should have more like

(30:05):
friendly chit chats with the cashier who's checking us out.
You know, I've definitely had experiences in my life where
I had like a nice, warm connection with a cashier
who is checking me out, But just as often I've
had the experience of like, Wow, this person is really
tired and they're not giving me the time of day,
and I'm not going to take it personally, but I'm

(30:27):
also like not getting a lot of warm fuzzies out
of this interaction.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
I'm just gonna like get my things and get out
of here.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Well, that's another thing is that I have definitely, with
my own eyes witnessed retail clerks take the time to
really connect with people who are shopping in a way
that I'm like amazed by. And so I don't want
to make it seem like there are no retail cashiers
who are doing that, because I know that there are.

(30:53):
My mom is a big shopper, and I know that
a lot of times that shopping is being done out
of a p of wanting a warm connection, and so
she's clearly getting a warm connection and that's what she's
going in force. It's really not about the item that
she's buying. But like you said, if you're a retail
cash heer, you probably have your own struggles with loneliness,
and so like a like, are weas like passing down

(31:14):
this burden from cashier to cash here, to cash here
to cashier And you know, if we really as a
country cared about this loneliness epidemic, which it seems like
we're saying that we do because the Surgeon General put
out a report on it, it's clear what we should
be putting our investment and energy toward, right public good
and social good stuff like parks and libraries and community
centers and all of that. Like it just feels like

(31:36):
under capitalism, it is like, well, we should have parks
and libraries for older folks. Best we can do is
an underpaid barista who is nice to them, Like that's
that's all we got to offer. And it's just so sad,
like we like, it doesn't have to be that way,
but that's how it is. That's how it feels to me.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, an underpaid barista and half a million dollars in
surveillance technology.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, ris Will that helped?

Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah, Like what if we invested in the barista?

Speaker 1 (32:01):
And this also bumps up around this, like popping online
discourse around chatting and retail employees. I'm chatty by nature.
I have a podcast, so like, I love to chat
somebody up and you can give you if you were.
If we're having a face to face, I'm asking how
your day was, I want some details. When we were
in Berlin that time, they are a less chatty people

(32:24):
and I asked that barista how his day was going.
What I'm a fake? He looked at me like I
had just insulted his mom.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
God.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, they really value efficiency over there, and I loved it.
I felt like by the end of the trip, I
finally had it down where I could like perfectly execute
telling the barista my order, perceiving it, paying and leaving
in the most efficient way possible. And in that moment
I felt like a small piece of pride, I guess

(32:56):
for like making it work in the German retail context.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
So it does sound like, you know, we're talking about
how chatting with the retail clerk is good for folks
who are experiencing social isolation. But it does sound like
not everybody wants to have a chat with retail clerks. Recently,
writer Bailey Hird, who also worked as a server, tweeted,
sorry if this is rude or whatever, but I really
hate people who refuse to endure even the tiniest bits

(33:22):
of small talk. Can't tell you how many times I've
walked up to a table and said, how are you
doing today, only to be met with complete silence and
a blank stare. And that's I mean, like it kind
of gets into a thing of like people are just
trying to do their job, and certainly, you know, you
get from corporate or whatever like oh, you're meant to
be chatty in this way or chatty in that way.
I used to work for a when I was in college,

(33:43):
I worked for a clothing retailer. I don't want to
say which one, because I I mean, I was very young,
but I quit in a very unprofessional way. But when they,
for whatever reason, they gave us this guidance that when
you were letting somebody into a dressing room to try
on a bra or underwear or a camousol, like some
sort of intimate item. They wanted you to share a

(34:04):
secret with them, And so that was like the guidance
that we got. And so you you were you were
meant to be like, oh, like an example they gave was, oh,
you're you're trying on this bra. I love that bra.
I'm wearing it right now. Like that would be the
kind of like secret they wanted you to share.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
What this is wild share a secret.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
I always wondered if somebody was like, oh, let me
you want to need a fitting room? Yeah, here you go.
You know, I once hit a guy while I was
driving and I just kept going. I didn't even stop.
And we enjoy your items. So what I'm saying is
like retail clerks and people who are working in the
service industry, they're like often given guidance from corporate to

(34:46):
like be chatty in a specific way. I don't know.
I do feel like we have this situation where people
are complaining about this and these people are just trying
to do their jobs, I guess is what I'm saying.
Like at Trader Joe's, which as far as I know,
Trader Joe does not do self checkout, Like none of
the Trader Jows have ever been has had self checkout, and.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
I was thinking about them. I think Trader Joe's is
like the anti self checkout, Yes.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
And they actually it sounds like maybe they want their
cashiers to be like a little more chatty with you
than other places. I saw this TikTok that I hated
where somebody was bemoaning the fact that to shop at
Trader Joe's they feel like they have to do emotional
labor of chatting with the cashier to buy their groceries.
But here's the thing. If you are someone who is shopping,
you're not the one doing emotional labor in that situation.

(35:31):
The person who is required by corporate or their boss
to like be polite and chatty with you, even if
they don't feel like it to ring you up, that
is the person doing emotional labor, not you. You're not
doing that. All of this to say, I think that
the question of what we get and what we lose
through the chattiness and politeness of a retail person is

(35:51):
a whole separate thing. When technology comes into the conversation,
it was easy for me to assume, like automatically, when
you're doing self checkout, you're losing this connection and that's bad.
But from doing this research, I do think that is
a little more complex than that.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Yeah, it is. Should we get into the listener feedback?
Let's do it all right, Well, I'll just start reading then.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
So this one came.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
From Hey bridget here, just an FYI that this listener
wanted to be anonymous, So we are bleeping that listener's name.
In case you're wondering why there are bleeps, that's.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Why how I can bridge it. Wow, this issue just
evokes strong feelings. I've never felt the desire to comment
on something before. The self checkouts is what brings me
to comment. I'd be curious to see if other small
things like this get more comments. I like self checkouts
mostly because I get to do my own bagging. Cashiers
and baggers aren't paid enough to make sure my bread
doesn't get squished. My favorite method is what Meijer does.

(36:50):
That's a brand in the Midwest. The store. They have
a phone app where I can scan and bag as
I grab things. Then I just zip through the payment.
It would be even better if I could pay through
the app. They probably won't do that because of shoplifting. Disclaimer.
I think shoplifting is a consequence of poverty, and don't
blame shoplifters.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
Do what you gotta do.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
I'm a stickler for data interpretation, so I have some
thoughts about the stats from the last episode. Sixty seven
percent of people have experienced the failure at self checkouts?
What is the percentage failure for human checkouts? Also, sixty
seven percent represents the percentage of people who have experienced
an event. What's the failure rate per transaction? Given then
a majority of people like self checkouts, I would posit
that failure rate per transaction is low speculation. I think

(37:32):
the part that fails the most is the weight sensor
that is making sure you bag items. The stores that
I shop at don't use this sensor, and it's much
more smooth. I don't know why they care. You've already
scanned the item, so you can't steal it.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
That's such a good point.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
It is a good point. Yeah, right, you've already scanned it,
you can't steal it.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
So, as a data practitioner, are you a data scientist
or a data practitioner? Because this is like I know,
Mike asked somebody who works at data. You probably were like,
great questions. Thank you for seeing the data like I do,
which is precisely.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
I mean, is you know, quite reasonably focused on like
what is the denominator here?

Speaker 3 (38:07):
What's the failure rate per transaction?

Speaker 2 (38:09):
I think I made you know a similar point last time,
that sixty seven percent of people said they've experienced a
failure with self checkout. I've experienced a failure with like everything,
my computer, my phone, my car, my relationship, my cat,
Like everything fails at sub point or an other, right,
But I'm not gonna throw it out.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
You are absolutely correct. It is the little things that
I think people feel the most strongly and passionately about.
So if folks are listening, if you're like, oh, here's
another little tech thing that we should talk about in
society that we all deal with, and what are your
thoughts on it? That would be a great segment. So
if folks have those, please write it. I want to
hear them. Who knew that these little things would be

(38:48):
such a sticking point for folks.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, it's also satisfying to talk about because I do
have strong feelings, but I don't have like identity connected
to it, So it feels possible to talk about them
and like hear new perspectives and change my mind in
a way that doesn't It doesn't always feel that way
about some other issues where there's disagreement. So it concludes

(39:11):
it's the small things, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (39:13):
It sure is.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
So the next email is from Phil Jones high Bridget.
I've got a lot to say on this subject, but
first and foremost, you're right.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
Fuck those machines.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
For whatever added context this might provide. I live in Gattina, Quebec,
on the border with Ottawa, Ontario, the nation's capital. My
general stance is that those machines are worse for everyone.
As you stated, then we've got four bulleted items here.
Number one slows the customer down is they now have
to operate the checkout, a specialized job people have long
been hired and trained for. There are quirks to the

(39:45):
machine that only a seasoned operator knows how to maneuver around.
There are special items that need to be dealt with
differently than standard barcode items.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
It's a mess.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Number two takes away a job from cashiers who now
stand around and monitor a bank of machines that took
their job. The cashier was promoted to managing a row
of insulting facsimiles of their former role. Number three, it
removes a bagger job entirely, as that's now on the customer.
Number four, it makes scamming the store that much easier,
so it's worse for loss prevention. The classics stake for

(40:16):
the price of bananas scam. Ultimately, the machines continue to
degrade interpersonal connections and community. We might see the same
cashiers every week at our local grocery store or pharmacy,
and whether we like them or not, recognize that we're
part of the same world and need to get along
to meet our own needs. These machines put yet another
barrier between us and our fellow humans. So let's take

(40:37):
a break there, because Phil has laid out a lot
for us.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
First of all, Phil, keep emailing me, because you can
write an email the way that this was so eloquently

(41:04):
laid out. I'm like, bulleted, this is the kind of
email that I really appreciate. Please keep emailing me. Phill's
email kind of gets at that tension that I feel
right that it does feel like for whatever reason, self
checkout is indicative of some kind of a fraying of
a social fabric that you know, like, like one of
the concepts I was reading about when I was preparing

(41:24):
for this episode is this concept of a frictionless society,
that it's automatically better if you're not having to deal
with the friction that sometimes comes with navigating another human.
That you order your groceries online and do curbside pickup,
you order Uber eat and they leave it at your door,
you don't even have to like talk to them, and
questioning the assumption that this is actually a better, more

(41:46):
cohesive society because the point of being in a society
is navigating other humans and sometimes we don't like it,
but like that society. I think that Phill's email really
really gets at the tension that I feel around that
of like, well, is this better? Is this a society
where I'm dealing with humans and navigating the intricacies of
that daily, Is that automatically a better society or a

(42:08):
more efficient society?

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (42:10):
I think Phil definitely has a very dystopian view of
the impact of these machines, Like we're all deep in
the sub basement of Metropolis, glommily scanning our items. They
are good questions and it's if nothing else, this is
useful for us to like step back and think about,
like what does it mean to be connected to familiar
strangers in our community and forced transactions in the checkout

(42:36):
lane with the cashier? What is the value of those?
Like maybe they're both good and bad. So that was
Phil's dystopian take on why those machines should be fucked. However,
Phil goes on to list a few scenarios where he
does use the machines another three points. Number one at

(42:58):
Shopper's drug mar slash Pharma pricks think CBS. Depending on
the location, there's usually one actual cashier in a bank
of machines. If I'm only ever buying a couple of things,
it is more discreete For the more personal purchases, and
the one I frequent the most, there is usually like
uncannily often an elderly person buying multiple six packs of

(43:22):
Pepsi bottles. There's the Quebec context for you. I didn't
know they drank a lot of Pepsi and Quebec. It's
just faster to use the machines. Second bulleted item from
Phil at Costco, I'm basically only ever buying a handful
of things that are cheaper and used at scale. I
live with my partner, no kids. We don't need most
things in bulk. Waiting in a ten person long line

(43:43):
with overflowing jumbo sized carts is entirely unnecessary. At Costco,
the machines are basically the express line. It's overseen by
as many as four people for six machines, or at
least a dozen cashier lines with both a cashier and
a bagger. No jobs are being lost here. This is
possibly the ideal situation for the machine.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
So I don't have a Costco membership. I would die
of happiness to have one. Philis just confirming my widely
held belief that Costco is my version of heaven and
I want to go there.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
And I think this also re emphasizes the connection between
how the workers are treated and the customer experience that
people get to have when they go to this store. Right,
Like we talked about that Dutch store where because it's
in the Netherlands, you know there is a social safety net.

(44:33):
They're providing a really good experience for the customers and
the management is not trying to nickel and dime every
like minute and action of the employee's time. Instead, they're
allowing the employees to, like and not just allowing, but
encouraging and facilitating the employees that spend some time like
caring for the customers. Costco is another company that treats

(44:56):
its workers pretty well. And then at the other end
of the spectrum, we have like Dollar General, which is
notorious for treating its workers about as bad as you
can legally treat a person. And they were just like
all in for the self checkout, where they would have
you know, one or two people in the store managing
the entire store all aspects of the operations, from like

(45:18):
managing to stocking the shelves, receiving deliveries, to mopping the floors,
to fixing the self checkout machines when they invariably need
to be cleared.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
These things are super related.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, I do think there is definitely some connection between
how the like. I mean, it's just decisions being made
at the corporate level trickling down to the experience that us,
both as humans who are shopping and humans who are
checking people out, are having.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yeah, like what is valued? Pil goes on. I've experienced
failure at any and all stores i've used. The machines
at grocery stores are particularly bad because of the complex
set of items. I think the machines are optimal at
five or fewer bar coded items. Beyond that, a trained
human is far more efficient. Checking out a grocery store
is a two person operation. That's why there are baggers

(46:06):
at subourbon stores at least that find they're mercifully absent
in urban stores. I prefer to bag my own groceries,
but I can only do that efficiently because someone else
is handling the entirely separate process of scanning items and
handling exceptions, the cashier and I are a team. I
used to work in the retail tech space against this
phil as part of an internal communication SaaS company. When
researching integrating advanced retail hardware, I found a trove of

(46:30):
dystopian tracking devices, from camera setups that heat mapware customers
stop in a store for optimizing product positioning, to tracking
MAC addresses of people on the street, from pinpoint advertising
the shelves with pressure sensors to present video advertisements. Shit,
that's not even worth implementing or having developed in the
first place, as the cost is so much higher than
the return automated checkout machines are the one ubiquitous piece

(46:51):
that made it to the mainstream, the most frictionless, right,
the most frictionless version of these is indeed the most dystopian.
The Amazon Go model, where you're in individually tracked throughout
the store, intercharge for all the items once you leave
the store easy, but nightmarishly removed from human interaction and
giving over so much personal data to Amazon.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
No.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Thanks, sorry for the long email, Thanks for the awesome show.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
Cheers Phil.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
That is terrifying and I think that the cost of
some of this technology it must be astronomical and I
can't imagine it's worth it. And so if this feels
to me like it is investing in surveillance tech for
surveillance tech's sake.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah, so thanks Phil for writing in, because that was
a pretty insightful email with some specialized knowledge.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Let me go on.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
This one comes from Susan Bridget. I think you're gonna
like this, Bridget, Mike, I dislike self checkout immensely and
only use it at force too. For example, if the
line for a person is really long and I only
have one item, that is maybe once every year or two.
My goal is to never use it. I think it's impersonal, frustrating,
and job stealing. When I lived in Boston, the stopping

(47:58):
shop near me had these you could take with you
as you shopped and bag your groceries in your cart.
You just had to pay on the way out. I
didn't mind those, and the technology seemed more reliable than
the typical self checkout. You paid a cashier, but you
didn't have to put your groceries on a belt. Occasionally,
they would randomly flag you for a spot check of
your items. I guess to prevent theft. After they scanned
a few items, you were on your way. I actually

(48:20):
liked that system way better than self checkout. Susan goes
on to thank us for the episode about Claudine Gay.
She brings up some really good points about that that
it's not a coincidence that all of the Ivy League
college presidents called it testify before Congress were women. It's
not a coincidence that two of the three women are
now gone from their leadership roles. It's not a coincidence

(48:40):
that the prime target for the far rights campaign was
a highly qualified black woman. There are so many mediocre
white men holding positions of leadership that are never targeted. Yeah,
so thanks Susan for the nice email.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Well, thanks for listening, Susan, And I do like this
email kind of. I like it because it affirms my
worldview surprisingly all.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah, and it's interesting that, you know, Susan is clear
that she dislikes them, the self checkout immensely, but then
goes on to describe this other less oppressive system of
checking oneself out that was less objectionable. Right, So it's
I do have to wonder how much of this people's

(49:24):
visceral reaction against self checkout is just the sort of
jankiness of the machines and the frustration of standing there
while it's like furiously beeping at you and telling you
that you've done something wrong. That like maddening, frustrating feeling.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
I think I have a special sensitivity to machines beeping
at me. Part of me wonders if my feelings on
self checkout are because I am the befuddled person who
can't figure it out and the machine is beeping and
everybody's looking and I'm like having an issue.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Yeah, but it's just software, right like, and it's one
can master it.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
I'll get there one day.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Okay, here's our final email from Emily. Emily brought up
some really good points. I've been working as a cashier
at a grocery store since twenty twenty and have been
on the front lines of the self checkout debate, mostly
from customers complaining to me, a person with no power
over the addition of self checkout machines at our store,
about how hated they are and that.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
They're taking my job.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
While I can certainly see where they concern about my
job security comes from, at least in my personal experience,
the inclusion of self checkout machines has actually made my.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Job easier and more secure.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Pretty much every member of my team has suffered some
sort of checking related injury, be it bone spurs, carpal tunnel,
or tennis elbow from the repetitive motions of scanning items
with self checkout. Rather than having to take unpaid time
off work, since this usually starts before you've worked enough
hours to get paid time off, we can instead work
the self checkout machines, which require less manual labor and
therefore less stress on work related injuries. As for the

(50:59):
machines taking our jobs, I'm a little more split on
the truth of this. On one hand, I don't want
to go to bat for any corporations looking to raise
profits by cutting labor costs. But on the other as
someone who was an essential worker during the initial COVID
lockdown and the ensuing spikes and variations, I can tell
you it is a thankless job, and I don't forgrudge
anyone who quits to move on to less people facing work.

(51:20):
The front end has the highest turnover rate of any
department at my store. Since having self checkout machines, I
at least do not have to deal with customers complaining
to me about understaffing and long lines. Obviously, I'm just
one person with one experience, but I figured i'd give
my point of view since it became such a heated topic.
Love the show and hope you're all doing well. Thanks
for your time, Emily.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Emily, thank you so much for this email, because I
really wanted to get the perspective of somebody who currently
works retail. I did not even think about the repetitive
motion of scanning out people's items and what that might
do to someone's body, and so the alternative of being like, well,
you don't have to take time off make no money,

(52:00):
you can do the self checkout, which is a lot
less physically demanding on you. I didn't even think about
that as a potential reason why self checkout might be better
in retail establishments, and so I'm really thankful for that perspective. Also,
I didn't think about this either, but it makes so
much sense that people who have issues with self checkout

(52:21):
complaining to the retail cashier who like she's like, oh, well,
I actually made the decision to put that, to put
that in the store, thanks for letting me know. I'll
take it out. Like what do people think that? Like,
that's how the decisions get made. Like, even if you
have issues with self checkout, like I do, you don't
need like complaining to the retail cashier who has who
did not make the decision to put that there is

(52:41):
not the proper way to do that. Complain on your
podcast people.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, and not just complaining to this cashier who sounds
like didn't really want to hear it, but also frame
me it as like, and I'm complaining because I really
care about protecting your job, Like, get over yourself.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
You don't care about this person's job.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
If you cared, you would like say something nice to
them or like tell a joke, not just like complain
at them about how you are inconvenienced.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
I'm complaining at you for your benefit, don't you see this?

Speaker 3 (53:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (53:12):
And also like it just I mean it also kind
of goes back to the conversation about retail establishments and loneliness,
Like it just confirms to me that putting the burden
on retail cashiers to stave off the loneliness epidemic. When
Emily is saying that the people the kind of experiences
people are having working at the front end like this
are not really that great and that people are rude

(53:34):
and people, you know, maybe it's not something that people
will want to would would have a lot of warm
fuzzies about.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Yeah, that aspect really like stuck with me. I've been
thinking about that a lot since we did that episode
and read these emails. How you know, I personally feel
like I've you know, the experience of living in a
city during twenty twenty when COVID disrupted all of our
lives and we were like trapped inside. It really like

(54:03):
changed a lot of things. That certainly changed me. And
so one part one thing after this conversation is I've
just been thinking about how has it changed me? Right, Like,
maybe I should go through the cash the like human
cashier line a little bit more often.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
I recently, you know, I think over the weekend, went
to the grocery store, that same giant that we've been
talking about all the time, and there was some kind
of issue happening at the self checkout machines, and the
line was just like not moving, and so I was like,
you know what, as a little experiment, I'm going to

(54:39):
get in the human cashier line. And I did have
a perfectly nice interaction with the woman checking me out.
We talked about the fennel I was buying. It was
a nice interaction. So maybe the self checkout is like
not even the thing. Maybe we just like need to
treat each other a little better.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Oh, I think that's right, Like the self checkout can
be like an internal test of how we're doing, how
well or how badly we're connecting and thinking about our
fellow human.

Speaker 3 (55:07):
Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
I mean a lot of time when I'm when I'm
feeling particularly low or stressed or angry or something, those
are the times when I just want to head down
go into the self checkout line, and yeah, maybe that
can be a little like signal to me to be
a little more mindful of my mood and maybe try
to change it by I don't know, being kind to

(55:30):
somebody or something.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
Oh, I have to do that with intention when I'm
in that place where everything is going wrong and I
feel like I'm about to lash out. It's like a
personal challenge with myself to like go do something nice
for a stranger and see if that reconnects, like reconnects you,
recalibrates you, ground you. Like it's like a personal challenge

(55:53):
because otherwise I just know myself that I can really
spin out and it's like, oh, the reason that this
thing didn't go well, if this person had nothing to
do with it, I mean, take my anger out on them.
Like so it's it's like a little a little challenge
that I have to myself to sort of reconnect and
stay grounded. And then also just like stay I just
try to stay grateful and checked in to the fact

(56:15):
that we're all sharing space together, sharing this world together,
and like it's comes with annoyances and handcuffs, but at
the end of the day, like what a gift.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Yeah, it's true, and you know, maybe we have to
have three or four mundane, draining interactions to be able
to have that one good one that like changes our mood,
spins it more positive, and gives us those those warm
fuzzies with the stranger at the store. All right, so
thanks again for writing in getting this kind of listener

(56:49):
feedback is amazing, feels really good, and bridget we still
need to do that experiment where we go to these
stores and like actually compare, although it feels a little
us charged now.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Oh, when we were queing the episode, I was like
getting getting my shoes on. I was like, let's do this,
but we're still gonna do it. Details to come, and
as I said, I want to start really untacking other
low stakes tech stuff. One that I might have is
QR code menus. Maybe that'll be next because I have

(57:22):
a lot of feelings about QR code menus and if
you do too, maybe start percolating on that. But yeah,
thanks for listening and thanks for sharing your feedback with us.
And Mike, I guess I'll see you at the grocery store.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Yeah, I'll see you there. Away from the self checkout.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I
just want to say hi. You can reach us at
Hello at tengodi dot com. You can also find transcripts
for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No
Girls on the Internet was created by me for Ja Toad.
It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland
is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and
sound engineers. Michael Amado is our contribute producer. I'm your host,

(58:01):
Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.