Will Smith's AI Fans; ICE hides deportation flights using Taylor Swift’s loophole; DC Sandwich Thrower Free; TikTok Hawks Stalker Tech – NEWS ROUNDUP w/ Nima Shirazi of Citations Needed - There Are No Girls on the Internet

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm bridget Todd and this
is there Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to
the Air No Girls on the Internet. This is another
iteration of our weekly news roundup where we explore all
the stories happening online in news, tech, media culture, so

(00:28):
you don't have to I am thrilled to introduce today's
guest co host, Nima Sharazzi, co host of The Citations
Needed podcast, which I guess I would describe it as
a leftist podcast about how media shapes power. Nima, that
is that a fair description of the show.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I think that's a fantastic description. Bridget and hi everyone,
and at you. Bridgett. Thanks so much for having me today.
This is is gonna be really fun. I really appreciate you,
uh asking me to do this. Yeah, are tag Line
is officially a podcast on the media, power, pr and
the history of bullshit. But I think you pretty much

(01:07):
sum it up. You know, the idea of how media
does shape not only perception but also the operation of power,
and how power kind of works in our world not
just through language but also through invisibilizing certain things in
terms of foregrounding certain things, silencing certain voices while lifting

(01:30):
up others. And so, yeah, that's the show. We've been
doing it for now eight years. We just finished our
eighth season and taken a tiny break before we come
back with season nine starting in September.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
And am I going to embarrass you if I brag
on you really quick?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Because you told me.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Something off Mike that I was. I gasped because I
was so excited.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yes, feel free, I tend not to you know what?
Fuck that? Yeah? Shit, yeah, I get to put some
respect on my name right here.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
So they've been doing this podcast eight seasons. They bear
you guys. You all barely have a social presence, but
that did not stop you from being included in this
new book podcast, Pantheon one hundred and one podcast that
changed how we listen from what the fuck to Cereal?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
And I mean, I just can't like it is huge.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
I was listening to another podcast that I love called
uh yeah Dude talking about this book and how they
were included in it, and I remember think I was
making dinner. I thought, I wonder if anybody I know
would be included in this book, and to be in
this book, you genuinely have to be foundational to the
art of podcasting, and the powers that be have said
citations needed. You all are foundational to the art of podcasting.

(02:43):
Because you're included.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
That is very very kind of you to say, yeah,
I know, we're thrilled to be in it. Uh. Sean Malin,
who wrote the book, you know, has been covering the
art of podcasts, I would say, uh for a very
very long time. He is a writer at Vulture and
you know, New York Magazine and plenty of other places,
really really great culture critic and writer commentator, and he

(03:10):
decided to include us in this. I you know, I
was thinking we would be the you know, one hundred
and fifth podcast, but apparently we're We're in one hundred
and one. So we made it. We made it, and
it's it's it's quite it's quite lovely. As you said,
we you know, we really don't talk about ourselves all
that much. It's kind of a you know, fully listener funded,
very word of mouth podcast, but people listen, people seem

(03:34):
to like it. We've been doing it for eight years
and going strong, and so it's really lovely to be
included in something without you know, without having the backing
of like corporate sponsors. You know, we've never read any
commercials or add copy. Ever, we don't have any grant money,

(03:55):
we don't have any corporate sponsors, as it said, like,
we don't even have a fucking website. Don't get me
started on that. But yeah, it's it seems to be
working out and now you know, hey, it's an ink,
it's official. We're legit now.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, And to your point about being one hundred percent
listener and supporter funded, I need to just kind of
underline that because in this day and age, especially for
leftist media, that is it's so difficult to sustain yourself.
And you know, listen, the reality is we don't have
a strongly well funded media wing like they have on

(04:32):
the right.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
We just don't have that.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
And so being able to be making this kind of
media and criticism for eight years without ever reading an
ad you know, I have, I've read an add or
to in my day. As our listeners are no, no, no,
no aware of I don't think there's no no, no shade.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
We you know, there's there's there's just a certain level
of independence and ideology that we kind of agreed to
right when we started in you know, June and July
of twenty seventeen, which seems both like a minute ago
and you know three millennia, and so yeah, we've really

(05:14):
kind of kept to that. And it's just it's just
really nice to have made it this this far and
to you know, have the amazing support of our listeners
that just allows us to really stay independent. You know,
we're just not beholden to anyone ever. And so you know,
we can talk about police brutality, we can talk about

(05:34):
the genocide and gaza, we can talk about real estate interests,
you know, having kind of exterminationist rhetoric against homeless people.
Like we can do all that without ever thinking about,
you know, us being pulled, or us getting a you know,
a scoldy email, or having to worry about grant funding

(05:54):
drying up from a you know, quote unquote liberal foundation.
You know, we just don't have to deal with that.
And and I I really don't take that for granted.
You know, I very much have been a part of
the progressive you know ecosystem for a long time. And
I say progressive, not even leftists. I mean, uh, you know,

(06:16):
day job wise, and so I know that it's it's
it's it's tough out there to sustain and to and
to stay true, and you know, we're all just trying
to all just trying to do our good workout here.
And I just think that the work of citations needed,
you know, is it is a testament to our listeners
more than more than anything else. You know, we have
an amazing team, me and Adam, of course, but you

(06:38):
know also are our producer, Florence and Julianne are are
our editor, Trendell transcribers, and and other supporters that we've
had over the years. But the fact that our listeners
have just stayed with us this long and keep supporting
the show is is just really lovely.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
If you're not listing the citations needed, please change that
right away, y'all, because it is a it is a
it is a force in this world, and we.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Need more shows like that.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
So, Nima, I actually have a rare bit of like
the tiniest shred of what I'm kind of calling good news.
I feel like lately the show being what stuff's been bleased.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
That is not why you brought me on Bridge.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, I want to talk about something positive for a change.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
This is a swirm. I feel like this is now
a gotcha interview. Yeah, you're like, this is oh now
it's a hostile interview. So, folks, No, I live in DC.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
I have been trying very hard to not make the
entire podcast about what's happening in DC, even though it
feels like it's all I actively think about anymore.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
And so it's like every conversation it's the top of mind.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
But I do have a tiny bit of good news
out of DC. So the very first night of Trump's
takeover of DC's police force, a man was arrested for
throwing a subway sandwich at federal officers while saying fuck
you fascist on a viral video.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Did you see this, of course the sandwich man. I
love that guy. Yeah, all all, all power to all
this sandwich people. And so yeah, I believe I saw
this news to bridge it, there was this case was
brought before a grand jury. Yes, this man threw like
like a wrapped up, you know, subway sandwich at some

(08:15):
fascist in DC occupying d C. Yeah, and as he said,
was like, you know, fuck you, get out of my city.
And like this clip went viral. If throwing the sandwich
at some like jack booted thugs chest and then like
running down the street with like Keystone cops going after him,
and I guess they like got him and he was pulled.

(08:36):
You know. His case was put in front of the
grand jury, and I believe this is where you're, uh,
you know, unlikely good news comes from.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yes, that grand jury in DC declined to indict, so
he was free to go. They so they popped this
guy on felony assault of an officer Chargers, which come on, now,
I mean, I mean, I guess I would say it
seems like a little much in terms of the charges.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
You could say they were trumped up.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
But I do think it's a testament to how DC
feels about having you know, military and federal agents in
our city. It is pretty unusual for grand juries to
not indict. One of the sayings is that, oh, you
can get an indictment on a ham sandwich, but I
guess not for throwing a hand.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Apparently not. I mean, who knows, who knows. Maybe it
was like the you know, if there was honey mustard
on there, you know, that could be fairly threatening to
an officer's life and livelihood. So I kind of understand that,
but you know, uh yeah, thrilled to thrilled to hear
that the sandwich man is free.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
He is free. He kind of became a local hero here.
Pun not intended, but very much appreciated. There are you
know that that bank sky photo the guy whole Oh yeah, like.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
The yeah, the banks, the banks. The stencil has now
turned into like yeah, like like a sandwich thrower. It's
pretty it's pretty solid.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
So he yeah, he has become kind of a local
folk hero here. And yeah, I really do think the
fact that you know, you could not get DC residents
to indict this person just goes to show how much
DC residents do not want Trump and what is happening
in our city. And you know, being from DC, I've
seen National Guard. I've seen what they do. I I've

(10:24):
seen them around and what I am seeing is they
are hanging out, they are on their phones, they are
getting iced coffee. Now they are like cleaning up trash
and doing landscaping. I saw a report today that estimates
that the National Guard deployment to DC is costing taxpayers.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
One million dollars a day.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
And I just think, no matter what Trump says, he
can say whatever he wants about how you know he
said that district residents are running out of their houses
to thank federal agents.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
For being here. He can say whatever he wants.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
We know the truth, and I think the fact that
DC resident failed to indict this man goes to show
what the truth is.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Let's take a quick break at her back.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
If there's one thing that y'all probably know about Taylor Swift,
other than the fact that she just got engaged, it's
that she loves her private jet. When she was first
dating Travis Kelce, I remember her taking some heat for
using her private jet to take pretty short trips to
go see him. She I mean, she has made some
comically short flights, like she took a private jet between

(11:42):
lax and LA to Santa Monica Airport, Which is it
might it might take you thirty minutes by car.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah. Yeah, her carbon footprint is large. That's a good
way to put it.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
And I will say she is not the only celebrity
who does this kind kind of thing. And celebrities kind
of understandably often want their private jet use to be
obscured from the public because it comes with all kinds
of bad press. You know, if I'm in my apartment
rinsing out a yogurt container for recycling. But a wealthy
celebrity is taking a private jet to go twenty minutes

(12:17):
down the road. I can see why that would be
the kind of thing they want to obscure because it
would come with bad press.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, I mean yeah, I think there's that. There's also
the idea of, like, you know, from from their perspective,
I think the you know, part of the argument is
not only about like fuel usage, but about like their whereabouts. Right,
you don't want you know, as public figures highly sought
after celebrities. You know, we saw this with Elon Musk, Right,

(12:43):
He's like furious that his private jet was being tracked
all around the world. Similarly the case for a lot
of celebrities, and no more so than Taylor Swift. I think,
you know, there's been a there's been like an FAA
carve out for this, yes, uh, celebrities for for for
quite some time now. A lot of private jet companies

(13:05):
have gotten their data scrubbed from these flight tracker sites.
So you don't know where like Martha Stewart is, you
don't know where Oprah is, and you don't know where
Taylor is right, and so I like that that the
that the you know, worldwide news about the Swift Kelsey
engagement was marred a bit for you, Bridget Bye, by

(13:29):
the simultaneous news that Taylor really doesn't want people to
know where she is in the world. It was marred.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
And I will say this, and I want to own
up front that this is my unpopular opinion. I have
taken heat for this opinion, and I can take it.
People might not like it. In my opinion, I don't
think anybody really needs a private jet. Celebrities and rich
people and famous people they have their own special access
part of the airport where they can do tsa screening

(13:57):
in private, and a private car takes them right to
the place. We have figured if you have money, we
have figured out how to get high profile people privately
and securely through an airport. Hillary Clinton fls Commercial BTS,
one of the biggest K pop bands in the world
with like a rabid fan base. They fly commercial. Prince
Harry and Kate Middleton are royalty and they fly I

(14:19):
mean it's all first class commercial, but it is still commercial.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I have taken heat for this opinion.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
I think that we don't like, in twenty twenty five,
if you have money, we have figured out how to
securely get famous people to fly commercial securely, and people
who refuse to fly commercial and feel that they absolutely
have to take a private jet everywhere they go, even
for short distances, they should just say I like flying
on a PJ. If I was wealthy and famous, I

(14:46):
would probably prefer private jet as well. Just say that
it's a little bit of a personal pet peeve of
mine that we have.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
That you're being apologetic about this bridget as if I'm
going to be like, you know what, I'm really u
proud of it jet side of this. No, I like,
I think that's a very reasonable thing to think, you
know that that maybe that kind of use of your wealth,
that that kind of elitism is potentially unnecessary in this world, right,

(15:17):
But I think it kind of comes back to the
fact that many people, and certainly many Americans, dare I
say most Americans think that they're just kind of like
one minute away from being a multi millionaire, and so
they don't want things to kind of be written into
law that will inevitably kind of like negatively affect them

(15:40):
when that happens. Right to them. They you know, as
you said, it's like they would want a private jet too,
and so it's like they're kind of speaking on behalf
of a class that they wish they were a part of,
but but but will will never be a part of,
which I think, really, uh, you know, not not to
be too dorm room about it, but you know, I'll

(16:02):
take a hit off this bong and then say that
really does go a long way to keep serving power folks. Sorry,
we can It's okay. We can be against private jets.
They're still going to exist. You can still be against it, though. No.
So the reason why I.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Gave all those caveats that this is just my opinion
is because when I not on this podcast, but when
I have said online that I actually don't think that
even super famous people, I don't think that they need
private jets. There's always some explanation like, oh, well they're
very famous, they would get hounded. You don't think bts
would get hounded. You don't think Prince Harry and Kate
Middleton would be hounded. They like, like, we have figured

(16:39):
this out, and I guess I just hate that we
It's exactly what you said of kind of making excuses
for what the powerful and wealthy do because secretly, deep down,
we all think that maybe if you play our cards right.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
That'll be us one day.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah. Yeah, I have made peace with the fact that
I will never be in a private jet. I will
I will leave this earth never having stepped foot on
a private jet, and that is fine. We don't have
to bend over backward to excuse these things that I
just I just fundamentally don't think that people need. I mean,
if if, if, if Hillary Clinton of all people can

(17:16):
fly first class commercial, everybody can fly first class commercial.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Like I don't I don't want, I don't want.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
To hear that that there's some special, super secret reason
why this celebrity has to be on a private jet
other than they just like a private jet.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, it's just kind of easy and fun and cool, right, like,
like that's what it that's what it is. But uh yeah, no,
I think it's it's it's it's hard to make the
pro private jet argument, yeah, and not just sound like
like a shithead, like I think that's just kind of
where it where it falls. But yeah, you know, I mean,

(17:51):
we're we're all just we're all just a minute away
from making it ourselves, and so, uh, we allow other
people to kind of live out our fantasies for us.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
I guess, so I understand why celebrities want their private
jet usage obscured. And as you were referring to, they
are able to use this little known Federal Aviation Administration
program to shield their private jet flight records from public view.
So Taylor Swift, Oprah Winfrey, Steven Spielberg, they have all
used this program. And now ICE, yes, that ICE, the

(18:22):
agency that is carrying out Trump's nasty portations, is using
this loophole that was formerly kind of mostly used for
celebrities to shield deportation flight information from the public. According
to this very interesting piece from Lever, this is sort
of a new thing, so they say, to obscure its
planes which ship immigrants out of the country on deportation flights.

(18:44):
ICE is taking advantage of a long standing program created
by the private jet lobby. For years, the scheme has
allowed celebrities and Wall Street CEOs to partially block their
flight data from public view. So the reason why this
program exists at all is thanks to the corporate jet lobby.
Deportation flights just like those celebrity PJ flights can be

(19:04):
tracked in real time still using other public data. But
ICE's use of the FAA's private jet blacklist program really
does underscore how this growing push for obscure, obscuring all
of this by the corporate jet lobby is being used
to limit public oversight over ICE's immigration crackdown, right like,

(19:25):
and apparently this is really unprecedented. It's crazy to me
to think that they're they're using this carve out thanks
to celebrities and wealthy people and the corporate jet lobby
to really be able to obscure from the American people
what is happening when it comes to deportations.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, well, I mean I think this really shows how
interconnected fascism is with privatization and corporatization, right, and so,
you know, a fundamental component of a fascist state, uh
is the like selective privatization of certain companies, certain industries

(20:07):
with that benefit wealthy uh supporters of the fascist regime,
right primarily. And so you can kind of see here
how celebrity culture, private jet lobbies, these these luxury industries
are now kind of writing the playbook for uh, you know,

(20:32):
anti regulation, for anti oversight that we're seeing from this
you know, clearly fascist administration. All I'll say is is,
you know, I'm surprised it took this long, Right, I
think I think that it's a it's a it's a
it's a kind of clever synergy here that a kind

(20:56):
of anti quote unquote surveillance, you know, pro privacy lobby
that only benefits the super rich. And I say, like
not just rich, right, but like like rich rich, rich,
private jet rich Epstein rich, right. And so that carve

(21:21):
out that kind of you know, goes under the radar
from public knowledge because like why would anyone know that exists?
And until you know that it exists, you know, you
kind of wouldn't think about it. Now that that is
being revealed because of how it is being weaponized in

(21:43):
service of deportation, in service of racism and xenophobia by
the Trump administration's deportation project, now it's kind of you know,
you're able to see where those where those connections kind
of already exist, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
It's so clearly interconnected. And yeah, I think that when
we justify these carve outs for the super wealthy billionaires,
very wealthy, very powerful people, it is connected to the
way that the government is able to obscure from the
American people what is going on with iced deportations, and
you might not think it, you might not see it

(22:24):
when you're saying, oh, well, just let Oprah be on
her private jet. But obviously all of this stuff is interconnected.
And you mentioned earlier Elon Musk.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
And you know, so if this's all, yeah, sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
I know, we used to working on the show where
we would do like a Musk alert where it was like.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Just so you know, we're going to talk about apologies.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yeah, trigger warning Elon Musk. But so folks, if this
sounds familiar, folks might recall, as you were saying, Nima,
that Elon Musk was pretty kind of irate about this.
A little bit of recent history. So this guy named
Jack Sweeney. He's an online researcher. He came kind of
famous for tracking private jets owned by people like Elon

(23:04):
Musk and Taylor Swift. He was providing real time information
about the whereabouts of their jets, and kind of unsurprisingly,
people like Taylor Swift and Elon Musk did not like this.
Both Swift and Musk were angered by Sweeney's live trackers,
and in December twenty twenty three, Taylor Swift's lawyer sent

(23:25):
Sweeney a seasoned desist letter. Elon Musk for a time
banned Sweeney's Elon Jet account that tracked his jet location,
but he refused to take these trackers down. And so interestingly,
this is something that I really think is a crucial
point here. So because Taylor Swift and Elon Musk both
take advantage of this Ladd kind of blacklist, which obscures

(23:48):
them from saa public flight tracking data, you know, sites
like flight aware. Because they are on that list, it's
harder to track them. But because Sweeney is like an
aviation nerd, He's figured out a workaround, and so his
jet tracking relies entirely on crowdsourced flight data collected by
volunteers around the world who use their own DIY receivers

(24:11):
to pick up live data from planes overhead, allowing him
to bypass this Ladd blacklist program that these wealthy people
have been taking advantage of.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
And so, yeah, to me, this is like a.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Win for aviation nerds where it's like, well, you can't
stop me from standing outside and collecting data and telling
other aviation nerds where what.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
That data is. Yeah, Yeah, No, I like the idea
that they're standing up like that they're just like looking
up in the sky and like wriping down, like what's
the serial number on the bottom of that wing? But no,
I think it's certainly important that there are people that
are adamant about transparency and adamant about doing this this

(24:56):
kind of work, so that even when their accounts a
are frozen, even when they are banned from certain platforms,
you know, hey, the truth will get out.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Exactly so, even though these ice flights are trying to
get around transparency by using this loophole that allows them
to be blacklisted, they cannot hide from scrutiny, just like
Elon Musk's private jet cannot hide from scrutiny. But positions
of ice deportation flights will remain available even if they
are flown on some of these blacklisted planes thanks to

(25:26):
enthusiasts who feed this information just called ADSB data. I'm
not an aviation nerd, so if I say that incorrectly,
I apologize, But thanks to enthusiasts who are feeding this
information into open source exchanges, and I just think this
story really does just go to show that dedicated people

(25:47):
can work together to organize systems to create transparency because
of the American people deserve to know that their tax
dollars are being spent on these deportation flights, and if
they weren't anything wrong, they would not need to hide
it from us in this way.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Well sure, right, I mean, you know, I think the
idea that the the deportation regime right now doesn't want
people to know what's going on tells you everything, right. Uh,
you know, the idea that that if they can just
disappear as many people as possible without anyone knowing, then

(26:29):
you know, then it's not going to be a story
and people are gonna are gonna stop caring. But that
every kind of chink in that in that armor of
weaponizing these kind of fascist modes of you know, preventing
information from getting out there is good and so you know,
it's it's it's great that there you know that there
are people out there doing this, doing this good work.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Let's talk about the Microsoft protests, because we did an
episode of the show back in twenty twenty about protesters

(27:17):
and advocacy work from rank and file tech workers who
were kind of agitating and advocating from within tech companies.
A lot of people have suggested that the shifting climate
in tech, things like job scarcity, layoffs, concerns about AI,
all of these like very real things. But that has
essentially quieted this wave that we saw in twenty twenty

(27:41):
of activism and advocacy from within tech workers, from like
rank and file tech workers. But I am proud to
say that that has not stopped because Microsoft this week
had to temporarily lock down a building and its headquarters
after protesters managed to get inside of the office of
the company's president. So current and former Microsoft workers basically

(28:02):
held a sit in slash protest inside Brad Smith's of
Microsoft's office, demanding that the company cut ties with the
Israeli government as part of the group no Azure for Apartheid.
Smith said that out of the seven people who entered
his office, two were active Microsoft employees. Eventually, Microsoft called
the police and had them removed. Brad Smith was quoted

(28:24):
as saying, quote, Obviously, when seven folks do as they
did today, storm a building, occupy an office, block other
people out of the office, plant listing devices, even in
crude form in the form of telephone, cell phones hidden
under couches and behind books. That's not okay, he told
reporters during a briefing.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Now, what is apparently okay is for Microsoft to continue
to facilitate the genocide of the Palestinian people. That apparently
is okay. What is not okay is for people to
have a problem with that, right. And so you know,
you see here kind of a clear reframing of what

(29:04):
is important in the story here, you know, on on
citations needed my show, we uh talk about how things
are framed, what is what is made kind of apparent,
what is kept outside of the discourse. And so you know,
the reporting on on the Microsoft protests kind of takes

(29:27):
them as like this disturbing the peace story, right, Like
like what are we supposed to do about this? Right,
Like okay, people are up in arms and they're very
moral and sure, but hey, you know, you can't just
go and like occupy a building. You can't just go
and like chant slogans in a lobby of a corporate headquarters.

(29:49):
Like you know, like both things can be true at
the same time. But what that is doing, like that
framing of the story is deliberately obscuring the purpose of
the protest, right, the purpose of the protest is to
stop the you know this, this massive tech company, one
of the biggest companies on planet Earth, from working hand

(30:11):
in hand with a genocidal government and a genocidal military
to track the people that they are then targeting to
UH slaughter in Gaza, right, Like they have been collecting
cell phone data, location data. They have all this stuff
and they feed this data from Microsoft to Israel to

(30:32):
facilitate what is now a nearly two year genocide. And yes,
of course the history did not start UH two years ago,
so we can we can also talk about that, but
in this in this case, the idea that there are
people who are saying that is not okay, that becomes
the kind of background story. But the foregrounded story is like, well,

(30:55):
the CEO was like disrupted from having like his you know,
teams call, and so therefore that has to be stopped,
and so like you know, hey, you know, like what's
he supposed to do? So he called the cops and
now like one hundred people were arrested, and you know,
so I just say, like I love that you're bringing
this up Bridge, because it's important to not just kind

(31:18):
of take the story that we're reading or seeing in
the media at face value, but to realize what the
story behind the story is and what is actually kind
of being allowed to be discussed while at the same time,
what is being deliberately obscured.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
No.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
Absolutely, So one of the points that really struck me
about how Brad Smith was sort of responding to this
was he sort of positioned himself as being like, Oh,
there was this big disturbance in the office, I don't
know what that was about, but then also kind of
saying that he doesn't really he can't really say what
Microsoft technology is being used for, something that I have

(31:54):
a really hard time believing. So this is from NBC right.
The Guardian reported earlier this month that Israel's Millie Terry
used Microsoft's Azure cloud infrastructure to store Palestinian phone calls,
leading the company to authorize a third party investigation into
whether Israel has drawn on the company's technology for surveillance.
I think the reasonable step from US is clear in

(32:14):
this kind of situation, to investigate.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
And get to the truth of how our services are
being you, Smith said, bullshit.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
I have.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Such a hard time believing they need to do an
investigation to find out how their services are being used.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
I'm not I'm not buying it. You shouldn't be selling it. No, exactly.
This is like the living embodiment of the like Claude
Rains Casablanca, you know, gif of like I'm shocked, shocked
that there's gambling going on and this, you know, casino
basically right, you know, so yeah, I mean the idea
that the idea that Microsoft would a not know what

(32:55):
is come on, obviously knows what it's doing. But also,
you know, I have to say I love the kind
of always go to line and we've actually done a
show about this ourselves, just go to line about well,
there needs to be an investigation. Let's let's get an
independent investigator, or we'll do it ourselves. You know what,

(33:18):
why don't we have the Israeli military investigate what Microsoft
is doing and then we'll tell you if it was
you know, good or bad spoiler alert, they'll think it's fine.
And yeah, at the same time, bridget this also, you know,
does this kind of appeal to capitalism, right, This idea
of like, hey, we're we just have the product. We're

(33:41):
not going to tell you or any of our consumers
or customers what to do with it. Right, It's just
a tool. It can be used for good or evil.
We're not the arbiters of what is good or bad,
and so therefore their profit motive is going to be paramount,
right like and and and their own complicity in the

(34:04):
you know, murder of hundreds of thousands of people, or
even if it was just literally one person, right who
doesn't matter, their complicity winds up being totally irrelevant to them.
And that has everything to do with the function of
profit over people. So that you can kind of see

(34:26):
the multiple things going on here, right that even the
kind of normal appeal that I think we hear all
the time from corporations or from you know, companies saying, hey,
it's just our product. We can't control how people are
using it, is the same thing as what we've heard
from tobacco companies, from what we've heard from gun companies,

(34:48):
what we've heard from you know, cat bulldozers that have
been used to you know, destroy homes in the West Bank, right, Like,
it has nothing to do with us. We just create
the product and then people can use it for whatever.
Right if you want to use you know, an AR
fifteen to you know, advocate for trans rights. Well then sure,

(35:11):
but here's the thing, they don't actually believe that because
it would never go that way, right, and it would
never go the way of advocating for rights. It can
only go in the way of like profit in service
of like, you know, hurting people. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
So a former Microsoft staffer who decided to leave the
company over their ties to Israel put it so well.
He said, this is not just Microsoft word with Clippy
in the corner. These are technological weapons. Cloud and AI
are just as deadly as bombs and bullets. And I
think that that comment really gets at it that you
might be thinking, oh, we're just building cloud services, this

(35:48):
is just whatever. This is just an AI solution, da
da da dah. And if it's being used in this
way to facilitate a genocide, who people who join this
company to make this technology have a right to say,
I don't want my labor going going to be used
being used in this way. And yeah, I think that
you're so right that it's very I don't know, I

(36:11):
think the idea that oh, well, all tech is neutral,
We're just building the technology and people can decide how
they want to use it.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
It just really.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
Falls apart under the slightest scrutiny.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, no, exactly, And you can see how it only
goes a certain way, right, I mean, like you can't
use the argument if you have kind of like a
leftist argument. It only works the other way. But right,
I mean if there were you know, if like three
M were creating, you know, massive sticky notes and sending

(36:45):
those in the nineteen thirties and forties to the Nazi regime,
and those giant sticky notes were being used to catalog
the names of people who are going to be exterminated
in Auschwitz, I think people might see that like three
doing that would be a problem, right. It wouldn't just
be like, well, hey, man, like you know, Gebels can

(37:07):
just like fucking go to Staples anyway. It's either us
or someone else. It's you know, hey, well that has
nothing to do with us. But like you can clearly
see why that's a problem. And so like the idea
that tools and technology are just as deadly as bombs
and bullets is a fundamentally important thing I think for
us all to realize. Yes, of course you can't just

(37:30):
then ban everything in the world, I guess, or maybe
you can, but I do think that this idea of
of sort of like feigned incredulity, that's like, hey man,
we're just like we're just like creating this spreadsheet tool,
like I don't know who's using it, like it it,
as you said, falls apart at the slightest bit of

(37:51):
like good faith scrutiny.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
And to make matters even worse, Bloomberg reported that Microsoft
even sought the FBI's help to investigate these pro Gaza protesters.
So basically, they requested help from the FBI in tracking protests,
and they worked with authorities to try to prevent them,
and they flagged internal emails containing words like Gaza and

(38:13):
even deleted internal posts about the protest. This is according
to employees and documents reviewed by Bloomberg. They also suspended
and fired protesters who disrupted these events. I do love
how Brad Smith he took this sort of weird stance
where it's.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Like, well, we really value and.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Appreciate our employees and like what they have to say,
and we really want to hear staff opinions, but we
will call the FBI it have to be investigated.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, no, exactly exactly. We stand for free speech and
freedom of thought. But only if we agree, right, Like,
it doesn't, it doesn't really, it doesn't really work that way,
except if you're Microsoft. You know, hey, you can just
you can just call in the FEDS and uh and
they'll and they'll do your dirty work for you. Yeah,

(39:00):
I mean, this all, you know, this all has to
do with the idea of controlling information, which also we've
seen in terms of you know, since we're talking about
Israel and Gaza, the the ongoing deliberate targeting of Palestinian journalists,
which is mind boggling if you look at the if

(39:23):
you look at the numbers, hundreds of journalists have been
have been targeted and slaughtered by Israel just for doing
the work of telling people what is happening. I mean,
this is the first live stream four K genocide in
human history, and that is a real problem apparently for
the Israeli government and military. And so they are going

(39:46):
after the journalists, they're going after the people who are
sharing this information. And so, you know, it may not
seem like a straight line from Microsoft calling in the
FBI to police its own workforce, but when you think
about what it means to control the conversation, what it
means to silence certain voices while having other voices have

(40:09):
huge platforms. That's when you start to see how important
controlling information, how important media is in sustaining what we
believe to be our own kind of like free press,
freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble. These
things are all being done under a I would say,

(40:33):
less than free infrastructure.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
And it goes back to what you were saying about
how a lot of these stories have been reported because
so many of them they frame the agitation of their
Microsoft's fiftieth anniversary programming or whatever as the important nugget
and not the more important nucleus of like, oh, tech
workers from within this company are speaking up about a

(40:56):
genocide and their technology that they're working on being used
to support that genocide. I think that your point about
framing is a really salient one of I mean, I
know you do this on your show all the time,
but it just goes to show how powerful of a
tool media can be to frame things and support of oppression.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, I mean, because you get to decide kind of
like when history starts whenever you're writing any of these stories, right,
And so Microsoft and the kind of compliant media that
is then reporting on this stuff, and that's not everyone.
I only want to be a jerk about that. I
think there's some articles about the Microsoft stuff that are
revealing amazing stuff, right, and important stuff. So I'm not

(41:37):
saying like every single article that anyone reads on this
is going to have some shitty framing, but the idea
that these stories are framed around the disruption to business
as usual without identifying the business as usual as being
that which facilitates and is complicit in an ongoing genocide, right,

(41:59):
And so you kind of decide how the story is
being told, just like when we hear about October seventh,
twenty twenty three, as this inciting incident that has now
led us to Gaza being subject to mass starvation, deliberately,
you're still deciding to start that story on October seventh

(42:21):
of twenty twenty three, whereas every day before October seventh,
even just within that year, within twenty twenty three, one
Palestinian per day was already being killed by Israel. And
if you go back further, whether it is fifty years,
whether it is eighty years, whether you go to the
Nakba or before, you kind of have a different idea

(42:46):
of history, right, Like there's a different trajectory. October seventh
doesn't come from nowhere, but when you start a story there,
you are deciding that everything beforehand is unimportant context, and
that therefore we are identifying who the victims are, who
the oppressors are, who the violent ones are, who the

(43:06):
peaceful ones are, just in the way that we're setting
up our story. And so I think you're seeing that
at kind of a grand human catastrophe level when it's
about Gaza, and then you're seeing those kind of residual
effects when it's about a smaller story like Microsoft More.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
After a quick break, let's get right back into it, Okay.
So one of my favorite tech outlets for ro four Media.

(43:46):
If you listen to the show, you know I'm a
huge fangirl of them. They have another great expos about
the fact that TikTok shop is essentially selling stalker gear.
So TikTok shop is selling GPS trackers that are explicitly
marketed with viral TikTok voiceover encouraging folks to use them

(44:07):
to track secretly a romantic partner. Some of these videos
have millions of views, and TikTok Shop's own metrics show
that more than one hundred thousand of these devices have
been sold. So they're basically these tiny secret listing devices
so that you can bug your partner's conversations or that
you can track their locations. Four for Media found a

(44:30):
handful of accounts promoting these type of trackers, and this
is a kind of a common TikTok shop thing. There
are several different versions on TikTok shops, so some.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Of them people are like, it doesn't even work.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
But that's like a TikTok shop thing where it's like,
oh yeah, some of them are going to be garbage.
So once I looked at these videos I just saw one,
my TikTok algorithm started showing me tons of them. Like
I watched one of these videos to get a sense
of it for the show, and now my TikTok algorithm
is like, oh, clearly's got Bridget's got somebody in her
life she wants to stalk and track. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, they're like, oh perfect, we can. You know, we're
gonna we're gonna We're gonna sell Bridget all the air
tags in the world at this point, So this is not.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
An isolated thing. Four or four reported that one of
the clips that they saw had eighty six thousand, five
hundred likes and links to that tracker had over thirty
two thousand sales of the tracker. Another video from the
same vendor had ninety seven thousand, nine hundred sales, and
there are thousands and thousands of accounts basically offering the

(45:35):
same products with a similar branding. In scripts, here is
something really horrifying. In one of the comments of the videos,
a user says, quote, I bought some of this and
put it on the cars of the girls I find
attractive at the gym. The original poster responds with, okay,
crying face emoji.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah, that's the level of stalker discourse. I guess that
we're that we're at right now.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
So the telling these trackers is pretty clearly against TikTok's policies,
which bans the promotion of criminal activities that may harm people, animals,
or property.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
But when furl four.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Media reached out to TikTok about these videos that they
had seen doing exactly that, Kiktok said, quote, we don't
allow content encouraging people to use devices for secret surveillance
and have removed this content and banned the account that
posted it. We further prohibit the sale of concealed video
or audio recording on the platform. However, fal for Media

(46:30):
was able to find many several more almost identical videos
on the platform the very next day, really raising the
question of just how proactively the platform is monitoring to
prevent content like this.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Well, yeah, because you get into the kind of you know,
PR piece of it, which is like the TikTok comms
team got together and they were like, we're going to
release a statement that we don't condone this stuff and
it's in our fine print and YadA, YadA, YadA. But
if that doesn't then translate into actual accountability or regulation
of this, then you just get into talking points right

(47:04):
like them, we're just talking about talking points when what
these products are doing in there and their promotion and
certainly promotion that is done algorithmically right to reach exponentially
more and more people, there's a real danger there. I mean,

(47:25):
this is this is truly a way that can that
can facilitate great personal harm to people, let alone you know,
loss of privacy. But uh yeah, I think you kind
of get into this like PR speak versus actual accountability
totally totally.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
I mean you and I have done similar kinds of
work where you black things to tech companies and it's like, oh,
we've taken this down, and don't condone it. There's a
million more up just like it, but don't worry about that.
And I will say so, using devices like this to
stop people track people is illegal in a lot of places.
Eleven states have criminalized the use of GPS trackers in

(48:05):
their anti stocking legislation. But this is something that I
found so wild, which is that according to this piece
in four O four, I guess I didn't. I never
really thought about it like this apparently is a it's
a common attitude that this kind of thing like planting
GPS tracking devices or listing devices on a partner is
no big deal if you suspect that partner is cheating.

(48:28):
Four four spoke to Eva Galprin, co founder of the
Coalition Against Stalkerware and Director of Cybersecurity at the Electronic
Frontier Foundation, who said that the TikTok videos really reflect
an extremely common attitude. Quote, you would be amazed how
many people think that stalking or recording or stalkerware is
perfectly justified as long as they think their partner is

(48:51):
up to something like cheating. They also quote this survey
from twenty twenty one that found that thirty percent of
the twenty one thousand plus respondents found no problem in
secretly recording their partner under certain circumstances, and that same
survey found that twenty nine percent of respondents had been
digitally stocked or had their location tracked. So I guess,

(49:13):
as horrible as it is that TikTok would be used
as a marketplace to sell this kind of thing and
market it exublicitly for this kind of use case, even
if it breaks the law, is that there's I guess
a cultural attitude that that kind of thing is okay,
which I frankly shocked me.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Well, I think that our surveillance culture has like gotten
to the point where there's this assumption that hey, this
is just what it is now. Yeah, this idea that
the advancements of technology or what I sound like the
oldest man ever, the advancements of where we are in
the fucking world right now, right with like you know,
these like supercomputers in our in our pockets, that has

(49:53):
become no big deal. That is just what it is
to live. That is is you know what it is
to exist, it is to be human, and therefore, you know, hey,
what are you really gonna do about it? And so
you might as well, uh just you know, uh stalk
people because basically our phones are stalking us anyway, So

(50:13):
why don't I just put that to uh, you know,
my my personal use. I think what's even creepier about
this is bridget what you just said in terms of uh,
you know, people are saying that it's okay if you
just suspect your partner of cheating, which just sort of

(50:35):
minority reports our entire relationships, right, you know, not to
say that cheating is awesome, but also stalking people is
is also bad, and so you know, maybe deal with
your relationship in a different way than than stalking your partner.
Maybe have I don't know, a fucking conversation with them,

(50:57):
and maybe not rely on tech to kind of do
your relationship work for you.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Ooh, this is I completely agree, and it came up
in our episode about the tee app where I do
think that our current culture, where we've got technology and
surveillance sort of baked into it, has made folks feel
like you don't need to have honest conversations, be open
and honest, like I really do. I understand that people

(51:26):
like I don't like the idea of being cheated on.
I don't think that cheating is a cool thing to do,
as you said, but relying on surveillance and technology to
to like supplement having a conversation, being open about expectations
in a relationship, being open about what you are and

(51:46):
what boundaries and all of that. I think that we've
gotten to a place where if you can just put
a tracker on somebody, in a listening device on somebody,
you don't have to do the work of being honest
and open and vulnerable and having those conversations which can
be awkward. I think that we're I think that we
are using technology to to not have to do some
of the work that comes with being in relationship with

(52:08):
each other.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
I'll just be honest and say that, yeah, it's like
the outsourcing of trust to tech exactly exactly, and we
know that, uh, trustworthy tech pretty hard to come by.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
I mean, if the tap episode was any indication, yeah,
very hard to come by. This is actually a very
good segue into one of the last stories I wanted
to talk about, which is how can you trust what
you're seeing online from people like Will Smith. So I
only recently kind of found out that Will Smith is

(52:44):
kind of on a big comeback tour, and this this
sort of missed me.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
I didn't know that this was what he was up
he easy. This alone is shocking news, folks. Don't you
find that shocking? I genuinely did not know that you
you shared this story with me, Bridget, you know, a
little little sausage making behind the curtain here. Bridget gave
me a heads up on this story before we started recording, folks,
and I like my jaw dropped, not at what we're

(53:11):
about to tell you about Will Smith, but just that
Will Smith is like on a tour where he's like
performing for crowds. It is just it's just a very
kind of bonkers thing that I didn't think was happening
right now. I mean, you know, I will admit me
following Will Smith as a as a you know, musical

(53:36):
artist pretty much tapered off after nineteen eighty eight's release
of you Know Fresh Friends and DJ Jesse Jeff's album
He's the DJ on the Rapper, which I mean, for
those who don't know has both parents, just don't understand
and Nightmare on My Street on that album. So it's phenomenal.
But like you know, even if I did follow after that,

(53:58):
I think like by the time he was doing Wild
Wild West, I was tuned out. And and this is
this is nothing against will Smith, although sure everything against
will Smith, I don't care, but like I actually really
enjoy him as as as an actor. But the fact
is he's on tour right now in like Europe performing

(54:20):
and I just didn't think that was that was going on.
I kind of want to hear from like Chris Rock
about that.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
So wait, you weren't around for the Willennium.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
I was around for Willennium, but I I didn't I
didn't care as much. I will say big Willie Style
has some bangers, and I have to give a little.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Bit justice for Wild Wild West. It's not as bad
of a movie as you think. Kevin Klyde is in.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
It and Kenneth Brannaugh.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yes, this is a podcast where we try to reclaim
bad movies. I know, I know producer Mike has a
little bit of a soft spot for Wild Wild West.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Have to put you on the spot.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
That's that's I owned it on DVD when I was.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
In middle school.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Oh hell yeah, Okay, so Will Smith is touring Europe.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
It has not gone well.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
He's gotten lots of like bad press and some very
cringey videos of him performing in front of crowds, and
now it has gone from bad to worse because allegedly
he has been caught using AI to generate like massive
cheering crowds at his performances. These videos they're like beatle Mania,
but it's Will Smith. They're they're like it is massive,

(55:28):
massive crowds, and they have these signs of people that
people are holding up that say things like your music
helped me beat cancer. Futurism has a very funny piece
on this where they've taken stills from the video and
zoomed in on them and it truly looks like a
body horror movie if you've seen the movie The Substance.

(55:49):
No spoilers, but like, that's the level when you look
at these images, that is the level of obvious AI
that is going on to generate these crowds. And when
you really look, it's like the images are ghoulish. The
crowd scenes that the faces look tormented, they're melting together
under these Will Smith banners. You know, there's one banner

(56:11):
that says from West Philly to Wes Swiggy, we heart
you will. But it's all garbled because it's AI. It
just looks I mean, it surely looks like coming out
of a body horror film where all these limbs or
like melted together in one big Will Smith mass. So
can I just say that this is the one story
that I find delightful that we're talking about. I'm kind

(56:34):
of on everybody's side for this one. Like I don't
fundamentally care that Will Smith's whatever, PR team, agent, concert promoters,
whatever it may be, are doing these AI crowds. Like
something is not offending my soul about that.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
And yes, we should be talking about AI, which we
talk about, you know, like image generation and how creepy
that is. And there are severe problems with this about
disinformation about things that are gonna get people hurt. This
I find like this is the twenty twenty five version

(57:18):
of people being upset that the producers of the Peter
Frampton album Frampton Comes Alive in nineteen seventy six put
in like extra crowd cheers, Yeah, do you know what
I mean? Like, don't I don't care? Fucking do you
mean black and like I'm down, do you know what
I mean? Like I am, It's a great album. I'm

(57:40):
glad the crowd noise is there. It also makes like
different live performances seamlessly intra cut to sound like one concert.
All I'm saying is like, that's the beauty of editing.
It's the beauty of a certain kind of art. Like
the fact that like people are hissed about this, I

(58:01):
also find delightful. That's the thing. Like I'm kind of
I think it's a win win for society that not
only is Will Smith on tour, but that is not
going well enough to put out genuine video and so
therefore this like demented technology is being employed and that
people are calling it out. I think we all win

(58:23):
from this.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Oh my god, you also just set me up to
talk about something that I literally I have thought in
my head. I wish that someone would ever tell give
me an opportunity to talk about this.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
You know the.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
Elton John song Benny and the Jets, how he starts
playing the piano and then every time the crowd. Yeah,
so that is a beautiful piece of production where they
have taken audio of crowd noises from a different Elton
John performance and different audio of crowd noises from Jimmy
Jimmy Hendrick's performance. So like when you hear that whistling,

(58:54):
that's actually not so that's not a live performance, it's
just a beautiful bit of production. And as an audio professional,
nobody appreciates that shit more than me.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
I've always wanted.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
I've I literally will go to parties and be like
us to help. Somebody gives me an opportunity to talk
about that Elton John production.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
I think that's awesome. I mean, right, because Benny and
the Jets is on Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, which is
a studio album, not a live album, and so right,
it's part of the production of that song that it's
as if he's playing in front of this crowd, right,
And so it's all kind of I don't know, like

(59:31):
it's all part of it, do you know what I mean?
Like everything's part of it. Will Smith is part of it,
Peter Frampton is part of it, Elton John is part
of it, and we are part of it. And then
I think that there are some uh some stories that
like Garner Outrage where I think it's like outrage, yes,
for outrage, sake, but also that's what makes you know,

(59:53):
people caring about and being critical of art, of celebrity,
of information, of what we're being being told and what
we're supposed to receive, how we're supposed to feel. This
to me is like what it means to be alive.
So like, thank you Will Smith, and thank you Elton John,
and thank you Peter Frampton and thank you Jimmy Hendrix

(01:00:14):
for like making us feel alive. Hell yes, I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
That's actually why I wanted to talk about this story,
not to be like fuck you, Will Smith, how dare
you do this? But it is. I mean, this is
such a good context to put it in in terms
of I love these clearly technologically manufactured or produced bits
of entertainment, and I almost wonder if this is just
another another one of those. I mean, that's that's a

(01:00:40):
very a very good context.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Yeah, I mean I just think, like like I said,
I'm I'm not down on the people who are pissed
off about this or or you know, moderately pissed off
or like calling calling it out like I think that
that that's part of it too. That's why it's fun
to talk about movies, right, That's why it's fun to
talk talk about music, That's why it's fun to talk

(01:01:02):
about TV shows, That's why it's fun to talk about sports,
because like, people are gonna feel a certain way. There
are things that make us feel and that is like
that's being alive, right, like and so yes, when tech
is deployed to do certain things that should be called out.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
Yes, when uh AI can be used just as much
to uh, you know, uh facilitate deep, deep harm in
terms of disinformation, in terms of uh you know, mechanized
slaughter in a certain.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Part of the world. That, yes, that is in a
trajectory of also talking about Will Smith's AI. But I
also think that like just having that discourse and being
able to see like that people care is is not
in itself bad. I actually think that is fundamentally good.

(01:01:59):
And you know, when it comes to when it comes
to the the you know, eight fingered ghoules cheering on
Will Smith, I think, you know, like those are my
people too.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Yeah, I mean, in the words of Frampton, do you
feel like we do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Fucking right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
That the I love listening to that because the crowd
is like, I've never heard a crowd like this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
The crowd. It's like, do you feel they're losing their minds?
Losing their mind? Yeah? Well, and the thing is like
when you listen to it, you get it right, Like
that's the beauty of Frampton Comes Alive. That like those
songs had already been released on his studio albums that
like largely no one cared about. Like I mean, he

(01:02:42):
was a star, right, Like he was on tour, right,
he was like playing in front of the crowds. But
like to do that live album that way. It is
still one of the you know, biggest selling live albums
of all time. And I gotta say it sounds fucking
amazing And when you're listening to it, you know like

(01:03:03):
you are right there along with you know, like baby,
I love your Way.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Thanks smoke a John, and listen to Frampton Comes Alive tonight, y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
If there's one thing that I hope listeners walk away
from our conversation with Bridget, it's that they should all
listen to Frampton Comes Alive Tonight. I'm with you, I'm
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Before we wrap, I have one quick thought as we
head into Labor Day weekend. One, y'all, there has never
been a more important time for working people to organize
together and stick together and push back against the fascist
billionaire class who is trying to take over our country.
And to that point too, we got a great ask
from a listener named deb deb thank you so much

(01:03:43):
for reaching out about something very cool, which is that
if you are going to visit a national park over
the long weekend, please snap a few photos and contribute
to the Save our Science project. This project is being
organized by librarians and archivists who are trying to preserve
the signage at our national parks before September seventeenth, which
is the Trump administration's deadline to remove signs they find

(01:04:04):
offensive for things like saying slavery was bad. The organizers
are asking folks to help document signs at national parks
before they are removed. Preserving the history in this way
is critical to protecting the legacy of the folks who
came before us and built legacies and struggled and fought,
and we should be preserving that legacy. You can learn

(01:04:26):
more about the project at Saveursigns dot org. We'll put
that link in the show notes. But if you're going
to a national park this weekend, please take a picture.
Of signs help this great project. Thank you Deb for
putting it on our radar. Here here, Nima, thank you
so much for being here today. You are a delight
as ever, where can folks follow the podcast?

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
Follow you?

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
I guess I don't know that that Citations Needed has
a robust social presence, but where can folks check it out?

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
It's not terrible, We're we're not. We're not, you know,
totally under the radar. We do exist. You can find
the show on wherever you get your you know, finest
podcasts or even your worst podcasts. We are everywhere. Just
search Citations Needed. We're the ones with like the you know,
bracket logo. It's golden black. Can't miss it. But also

(01:05:16):
you can follow us on Twitter and yes I still
call it Twitter at Citations Pod. Facebook isn't really a thing,
but we're there too, Citations Needed. But you can also
support the show through Patreon dot com slash Citations Needed Podcast.
That is how we stay independent because we get our
listeners to support us through Patreon. But yeah, you can

(01:05:37):
find the show pretty much wherever. You can also find
me on Twitter places, but you know, no one uses
that platform anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
And you can follow me on Instagram at bridget Marine DC,
on TikTok at bridget Marine DC, and on YouTube. Y'all,
we're trying on YouTube. I know it's crians. We're trying,
but it's there are No Girls on the Internet.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
On YouTube. We're doing our best out there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
Yeah, Mima, thank you so much for being here, and
thanks to all of you for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
I will see you on the internet.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
just want to say hi, You can reach us at
Hello at tegody dot com. You can also find transcripts
for today's episode at TENG Goody dot com. There Are
No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.
It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland
as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and
sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. Edited by

(01:06:31):
Joey Pat I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want
to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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