July 29, 2025 • 39 mins
The WNBA All-Stars demanded what they’re owed — and the Packers are all in. Madison and Anya dive into the fight for fair pay and the importance of Collective Bargaining Agreements in sports. They revisit the early days of pro hockey, from Anya’s time leading the Players’ Association to the PWHL’s still-imperfect CBA. Finally, they unpack why women athletes keep getting shortchanged — and imagine what a truly fair deal could look like.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So buckle the puck up, because there is a lot
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hi, Maddie, Hello, Anya.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You know, I think it's crazy I call you Maddie.
And when somebody who didn't like when I didn't know
you and someone called you Maddie to me, I like
almost got the ick. I was like, she's too like
tough and rough and not nice to have that nickname.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Sometimes you call me pack. I like when you call
me pack.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
No, But I'm just saying, like, I think it's not
an aligned nickname for you, like Maddie. Yeah, and you're like,
so you're like ripped and big and mean looking, but
you're not. You're very sweet and said today more anyway,
Hi Maddie, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hello, I'm quite tired, Quite tired but we can get
into that later. Okay, well, what are we going to
get into? Firm I'm excited for the episode. We got
a solo EPI. I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I know you like to talk to me, so you
want to get into the.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hot take, and this is going to be a good one.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Take it away, hoty hot take.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Today's hot take is, well the hot take. This isn't
a hot take. The w NBA All Star Game was incredible.
It was awesome, very entertaining. Viewership a little down because
our girl Caitlin Clark was not participating. However, you're obsessed.
It's still popped off. My hot take is I think
it's a huge shame, in an absolute miss that the
(01:44):
PWHL doesn't do it. I don't really understand it because
year one they did that thing with the NHL, which
just kind of felt like piecemealing and piggybacking on what
the PWHPA had done. It just like felt like such
a shame and missed opportunity that we don't do that
because it one provides fan engagement because you usually have
(02:05):
you know, fans vote players in, and so you get
some players that aren't quote unquote the best of the
best of the best. But also I feel like there's
an opportunity you could take maybe one of these takeover
tour markets and put an All Star Game there, and
then I mean that would pop off. You have all
of the best that in one spot. It's an entertaining weekend.
All the players are together, it's a blast. I played
(02:27):
in six All Star Games in my time with the
PHF and NWHL, and it just provides a different opportunity
for players to interact. And I think it's a huge
miss that they don't do it.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I actually fully agree, and I think the reason that
they don't is it's very expensive. It doesn't feel like
an obvious slam dunk. It's hard to sell sponsorships when
you're already trying to sell sponsorships in a startup league.
When I was the head of the PA in the NWHL,
it was always a big fight, right, Like it was
like are we having this weekend? Because it's incredibly expensive,
(02:56):
it's hard to find a place to host it. It
needs to be big, needs to be bad, It needs
to have production quality, like, it needs to have all
these things. So from a league standpoint, it's always one
of the first things on the chopping block, like should
we get rid of this? It's hard to program, it's
hard to sell. We're already trying to sell sponsorships for
the league and the teams. Do we have to add
this second or third or fourth product, right? And the
(03:18):
answer is yes, Like if we look just at what
happened in the n WNBA, I think that the star
of the show personally was the stud Buds. So the
stud Buds in a seventy two hour live where they
literally broadcast everything. Someone just followed them around with the
camera and it was hilarious. They like exposed all this tea,
they exposed to each other. They like it was just
(03:39):
honestly pure and hilarious and amazing content. And everyone online
is talking about it. They're talking about they what they learned,
what they uncovered, the little like nuggets and like all
these other elements of it. It was a bunch of
like gay drama. Who's dating who, who's holding who's hand,
who was grinding on who, who's doing this at the club,
who's doing that? Like it was it's just hilarious, And
(04:01):
if I think about it, I was never in an
All Star Game. I MC two of them, and I
did secondary shoulder content at two others, So I was
included in four in some way, shape or form. And
I think that's the other thing that the All Star
Game does really well, and especially the WNBA, but we
back in the n of HLPHF days did a good
(04:22):
job of it. Is like creating this like narrative and
storytelling and ability for other non star quote quote players
to jump in and infuse their own brands and the
league with their personality, Like it's just so much fun.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, I preemptively exposed your pregnancy at the All Star Game.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
You did out out my pregnancy, which was absolutely heinous.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
That year you were the captain of the All Star team.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So for a little background, I get incredibly sick when
i'm pregnant, like throw up at the site of air
sick when I'm pregnant, and I was not twelve weeks
yet you.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Were like a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We did not tell him.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I was so excited.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
She was so excited.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
You were supposed to be on the ice, and the
you weren't a lot on the ice, and everyone's like,
why she's not going on the ice.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Maddy got a little tipsy. Maddy got a little tipsy
at her her team kickoff party. We bump in every
single person rubbed my stomach and said hi to me,
and I almost came out of my skin.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Whalan's big debuts big debut was as the All Star
secondary captain because everyone was then obsessed with him. But
I just think, why would we not? The WNBA All
Star quality and content and sponsorship is obviously tier one,
but to do nothing is embarrassing, especially when the NHL
(05:44):
All Star Game is like three days. Isn't it like
a three day event?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah? And I personally think that the While you might
think it was the stud buds, I think that the
star of the show was the T shirts that they
all wore. I think it's incredibly cool that the WMVPA
does everything in Lockstown. But for those who don't know,
they wore T shirts that said pay us what we're owed.
So we will get into that in a little bit
as well. But overall, I think it was a smashing
(06:08):
success for the WNBA, and I hope to see it
in the future for the PWHL because I think that
it would be equally successful. So time agree all of
that to say, speaking of star power, let's do a
little check in how you feel and mommy, are you tired?
Is your back hurt from carrying the team? Where we are?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
My back does not hurt from carrying the team. I
feel pretty good. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, so
we drove home.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
We did the whole chaos, and honestly, I didn't feel
like the car smelled like gasoline at all until I
just got into it to put the kids in the car,
and it re reminds me that I sat in it
for fourteen hours and it does smell like gasoline. But
we're home now, and I did most of the driving
because your license conveniently expired like a day before we
had to do this drive. I think this was all
(06:51):
a big ploy so that I had to do all
the driving. I did not mind it in the slightest.
I get so nauseous driving. But I'm tired today. I'm
a I'm like a thirty five. I did not work out.
I don't feel good. I don't feel like i'm I'm
just like I want to sleep all day and I
can't well.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
What DMV doesn't send you a reminder that your license is.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Every every DMV. Ever, no one's ever sent me a reminder.
It's just you just use your eyes and look at
your license.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And look at the expiring bait.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I didn't know. I didn't know until I went to
buy beer up North and they were like, your license
is expired. Okay, well i'll bring you up. I'm at
like an eighty seven. Actually no, I met like a
ninety six. That was way too low. I'm a ninety
six too low, and I would be a one hundred.
I got to work out with Vic today. Shout out
to my man Bic at the boxing gym. I love
that man. He kicks my ass every time I'm in
(07:39):
the gym. I haven't seen him for a bit because
we've been gone. He told me he was going to
take it easy on me. But then I went to
a class last night and like for those who aren't
familiar with boxing, it's like combinations, and they're not you
can't just look them up online, like they're unique to
every gym. And so I worked my way all the
way up to nine and then you forgot them all
and I was so pumped. And then I wasn't there
for like three weeks and I forgot them but like
(08:00):
it comes back really quickly. So today I remembered them.
But yesterday at class he was like, I got lost
on four and he like smacked me in the side
of the head with a pad and was like good
into buckl Lawn. And then today I went in for
class and he's like, uh uh, you get two mistakes
and he hit me with seven, like right off the bat.
So he made me puke, which I needed. But yeah,
I'm feeling good. I got to sleep in a little bit,
(08:23):
thank you. I'm taking Wayland to buy some baseball pants later.
He's got his first baseball practice tomorrow, so and I'm
excited to be home. We had a good, good meal
last night, good homemade cooking. Now that we're back, so
I'm good. You could take a nap later, I'll.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
You said you were going to be one hundred, but
you had lost four points. What are the minus four
points from?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Because I threw up?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Oh oh oh, all right, well then there you go.
That's a good reason. I guess.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah. It wasn't great, but I made it outside the gym,
so that was good.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
That's all you can ask for. If you're gonna throw
up while working out, let's just hope. It's like in
a toilet, in a in an outside experience. The barrel
inside the gym never feels good. You don't look cute,
you don't look strong. It's not a good feeling. And
then you have the wipe throw up off your face
with the shirt that you're wearing, and then inevitably go
right back into the workout and take the bag throw
(09:16):
up while working out or and it's not for any like,
it's not because I'm not in shape or I'm not
fit or whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
I think. I just get so excited when I'm working out.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That I don't breathe and then I throw up, and
then I can just keep working out.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Is that weird?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Oh that's only the third time or a third or
fourth time it happened.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I can't say the same.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I can genuinely count probably over over fifty times that
I've thrown up while working out, from college to pros.
Just in those just in those six years, seven years.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Should see a doctor about that.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's not normal anyway. I'm glad that we've all that said.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
We're over one hundred, so the packer house is cooking.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
We're fired up.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I heard a little rumor that when the babysitter or
excuse me. I heard a little rumor that when the
nanny has to go, you're going to take the kids
independently so that I can continue to be alone.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
I am also shout out to well, she is the goat.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
She actually is the goat MVP. Yeah, we're like pulling
our hair out running downstairs. She's so chill, She's like,
it's okay. I'm like, what do you mean they're being
so bad? She's like, that's sorry. There's actually like a Before.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I go into the next thing, I do want to
talk about this quick concept that has come out. I
watched Kylie Kelsey talk about this, and it's called the
feral Kids summer. It's where you don't overcorrect everything your
kids are doing and just like let them operate like
feral beings. And while it's very hard, I try to
do that when we are outside. Maybe not inside because
inside it gets truly chaotic. But like if the kids
(10:46):
want to bug hunt or play in mud, or like
pick weeds or like climb through the woods, short of
the fact that we have a lot of toois and
I listen, generally, just do whatever I think that time
where they can just be completely feral is kind of fun.
So I'm gonna embrace the feral kids summer. So we
have a solo episode today. We're going to get into
(11:07):
all things. And you talked about the past, what we're
ode shirts and the PA and the CBA and all
those negotiations. We've lived it, so we're going to talk
a little bit about that after the ad break. All right, pack,
(11:31):
I think there's a ways that we can talk about
this that would be really interesting and add some kind
of nuance to the general conversation. But let's start with
the shirts, the WNBPA and maybe what you absolutely loved
about it and what's going on there.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, so they're in negotiations for their new CBA, right,
And I think that I said before, I just love
everything that their PA does. I think that they have
a really strong leader in Terry Jackson. I think he's incredible.
I've met her a few times. I was on a
panel with her for the ESPN W Summit, and she's
just a true leader and a force. And you know,
(12:08):
she's so experienced in what she does and she's not
going to compromise at all for those athletes, and I
think that that's powerful I think that those athletes have
proven their worth. They're proven that they can sell tickets,
that they're worth watching, that the value of their product
has increased dramatically from when you know these discussions happened.
They have absolutely proven that their product has increased in
(12:30):
value since the last negotiations, and I think that they're
dramatically underpaid. I think that they're an industry leader across sport.
So I think it was a strong and bold statement
by them. Those women are not going to compromise, and
they know their value and they're going to.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Fight for it.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think the thing that also rates is major eyebrows.
And I think everyone always talks about like the salary
and like, yes, there's there's a problem in the salary
compensation for WNBPA players or just generally female athletes. But
here's the craziest thing the WA The WNBA players receive
nine point three percent of the league's current revenue.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Okay, NBA fifty percent.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It's not a question of just give us a higher
salary cap, give us more money, like, it's not a
question of that. It's a question of you are profiting
off our necks and we are getting a fraction they're
getting a fifth of what the NBA players get, and
the NBA salaries are what they are.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well and two, right, the relationship between the NBA and
the WNBA prohibits and significantly limits what those women can
have access to because right the partnerships that exist, it's
like the NBA has X, you have to give the
WNBA Y and this partnership is limited because of this partnership.
And the women I think have taken a stance of
we don't want that, while we are grateful for the
(13:50):
support we receive to this point from the NBA, And
that's where I think the PWHL, you know, it needs
to learn a little bit like you cannot rely on
just a handout in essentially a donation from a partnership
from a league that doesn't work. But you also can't
say no, we don't need you, we don't want you,
like the WNBA is at a point now where it
(14:10):
can breathe on its own, and they would be better
off to be able to have these partnerships on their
own because the dollar there, I think would be more
valuable and it would be much higher. The PWHL in
the antithesis has almost no relationship with the NHL because
they're trying to prove right that they can survive on
their own. And the reality is, until you get to
(14:31):
the point where you can, there needs to be an
equitable and mutually beneficial partnership. And right now, the WNBA
and the end of NBA do not have a mutually
beneficial partnership. The NBA profits significantly from its partnership with
the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And on top of all of that, women's basketball players
have other options. They have Unrivaled that put out two
hundred and twenty thousand dollars compensation packages for their athletes.
I mean that's almost at the supermacs. But there's other
avidue and that's the FISA Collier and Brianna Stewart saying, Okay,
we're athletes. We have all these partnerships, we have all
these connections, like, let's build something pretty dope. And I
(15:08):
think it's without question that what Unrivaled did for the
world of women's basketball is going to flip it on
its head. And you can't say all of this exists,
but our CBA negotiations are going to continue to yield
a fraction of a return on their two point two
billion excuse me.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Let me just cap that with a capital.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
B billion dollar media deal, that's their NIL, that's them.
And like expansion fees are in the you know, a
couple hundred million mark, they're expanding teams like crazy. I
like the point that you made. Let me not get
too crazy on the numbers. Let me just call it
what it is. When the relationship is completely tethered to
the NBA, the answer is the NBA is going to
(15:48):
get their bag and then whatever's leftover is going to
the w And that was always so we'll talk about
our own backgrounds, but that was always my challenge when
we would say, oh, as a women's talk league, we
need the NHL, when the NHL is very clear that
if they're going to invest in more hockey, it's going
to be men's hockey. Internationally, it's not women's hockey. Here
(16:10):
are the home front and the more we get confused
with their viewership, but.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
That's the NHL, right, That's the NHL. That's not and
that's where it's interesting because teams don't feel that way
the league, but NHL. One or two individuals who have
the most power at the NHL.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Correct and there's a lot of movers and shakers within
the NHL that don't agree anyway, I want to go
into what I think is of CBA conversations.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
We've both gone through negotiations.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I've been the players Association head, I've worked really closely
with Terry Jackson on some of that stuff. And you've
been a representative, you've been a captain, you've been a player, right,
like all these different things.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I think it's.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Interesting because everyone would assume that what the WNBA players
are arguing about, or what all of us are arguing about,
is more luxury, and the answer is we just want
fors like it's not even close to the same kind
of conversations, and the optics of a professional athlete are, oh,
(17:10):
everything's great, it's similar, but it really isn't. So I
think something super interesting right off the base is to
just maybe talk about what it is and what it isn't,
you know, like being a pro athlete, medicine, what is
it and what is it not?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Well, so it was very different right in the NWHL.
It was the worst it ever was. It started out okay,
and then we started to realize, you know, what things
were supposed to look like. National team players were getting
more benefits and more resources at that level, and so
then they were coming back and giving feedback at the
professional level of hey, this isn't right. That isn't right,
(17:49):
which kind of was part of what led to the divide.
But then, to be clear, there was never a point.
I mean, and I guess it differs because everyone has
a different reality and a different story. But you know,
I think year one and two were the worst, and
then year three it got a little better. And then
year four when there was you know, this like flag
(18:09):
in the sand of like, hey, this has to change
or else, and then everyone left. It was a real
wake up call for the league. And then there was
a huge change in ownership, a huge change in leadership,
and things did get astronomically better. And you and I've
talked about this before, we had a PA. You then
took over the PA, and we were able to benefit
from profit sharing and sponsorship sharing and ticket sales sharing,
(18:31):
like those were all things that put real money in
players pockets. We also had real equipment sponsors, Like things
got better. Were things the best that they ever ever were? No,
But I also look at the current landscape and I
have a real problem with the current CBA for the
PWHL A lot of people do. My number one problem
is that the majority of players playing in that league
(18:52):
were not allowed to vote on that CBA. And I
think that that's concerning, and that's you know, that's just fact.
You know, when the the PHF was acquired in July
two years ago, the players of the PWHPA had not
yet voted on that CBA, and it was very clear
that the active player pool was going to consist mostly
of PHF. There were going to be more PHF and
(19:13):
international players combined than former PWh PA players participating in
the new league. But none of those players were allowed
to see the CBA. None of those players were allowed
to vote on the CBA. Jana Hefford was a part
of those conversations. Who was going to be you know,
the whatever her title is, commissioner, you know, senior whatever
of the new league. She's in charge. So to have
(19:34):
a person like that in charge of, you know, negotiation
conversations for a CBA is inappropriate. The fact that it
has the guarantees that it has to protect players who
will not outlive the length of the CBA, and you know,
those benefits and protections benefit only them and then you know,
the reality of the CBA starts to hit and the
things trickled down and you have all these players being like, wait,
(19:56):
I didn't understand that properly, and so I think that
that's a real conversation that everyone is afraid to have
that while there is a CBA in place, and every
league says this right. Once you have a CBA and
it passes, you're like, oh, now we need to put
this now, we need to put that right. And a
strong CBA has compromise on both sides. Correct, But the
reality of the situation in the PWHL is one you
(20:18):
had a lot of players who were I don't want
to say used, because I don't think that that's fair,
but you had a lot of players who were misguided
in what they were voting for, and then when they
figured it out, it was too late. Behind the scenes
conversation is that's not what I thought I was voting for.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
The challenge is this, And I will say this from
my perspective.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
My perspective is I was a player, I was the
head of the PA, I was very I was very inexperienced.
Obviously I was just starting it at the first moment,
and so what I did was I tried to get
as many lawyers, as many experts, as many people that
I possibly could, to fill my brain with as much
information as I possibly could, so that I could try
(20:58):
to disseminate effectively the definition of what we were doing.
And I think that that got lost in this process
is to really slow down because a CBA is not
a race, it's a march. And it very much felt
like we want this to be our CBA, so we
want a race to the finish line here and accept
(21:20):
anything at all costs so that it just gets done
so that we get our league. And what we lose
in that race is the reality that every single person
having a voice in every single idea being brought to
the table and every single thing really creates the change
that you want. I always said, and you brought it
up like you know, everyone was leaving, that's why the
(21:41):
league got better. Well, everyone was leaving, but they were
saying what was wrong, which is why the league got better.
I immediately in season five had two hundred critics to my
current standard player Agreement. So when I was the head
of the PA, I could take every single critique and
go to my players Association and say, hey, these are
(22:02):
all the reasons that these players will not play with us.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
How many can we change?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
How many do we care about, and how many do
we want to fight for? And we sat down with
a pretty exhaustive list of critiques and we went through
and we fought, and we went line by line by
line with the league. I remember it was grueling, it
was awful. But I had never gotten so much feedback
before in my life. And I think that people don't
(22:28):
recognize that when we sprinted toward doing that in women's hockey,
so that it was you know, the PWHPA or whomever
they wanted to claim themselves to be, we forgot that
the PHF, the NWHL, like all those people had already
gotten a lot of victories on this battlefield, and we
left those victories there right like, let me give you
(22:48):
one benefit that I think is heralded as a benefit,
but you and I being that we fly more than
once a year, No, that it's not. Players can fly
with their children if they're under two years old. In
the CBA, an important byline of supporting mothers. Anyone with
kids under the age of two know that a lap
infant is free until two years old and so at
(23:11):
the exact say it's not a benefit, he's aline benefit.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
It's adult benefit.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Just says that you're allowed to bring your kid with
you on the road.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It's no benefit, it's no care, it's no extra per diem,
it's no support other than you don't have to share
your hotel room, which sharing a hotel room as an
adult professional athlete generally should be off limits, but we
do in women's hockey. We share hotel rooms. And the
only people that are allowed to have their own hotel
room is someone that flies with their children and then
(23:40):
pays additionally for a caregiver.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
We always paid for a second room anyway. Is because
also people parents with kids know, if you're sharing a
hotel room with your kid, no.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
One is sleeping, you're not performing.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
If you're sharing a hotel room with a kid under two,
three four, no one's sleeping.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So the race to get there accepted subpar benefits. And
there were mothers making the decisions, but they were making
the decisions from a position of privilege, right Like, those
are moms with partners, those are moms that have extra income,
Those are moms that have the ability to do those
things well.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
And I think that that's an important part of the
conversation when you look at the WMBPA and what it's
comprised of, right, and then you look at how things
were operated in the NWHL and the PHF. In the beginning,
captains were not allowed to be members of the PA, correct,
And then that kind of changed a little bit. And
then I was never allowed to be on the PA
(24:33):
while you were the head of the PA because that
was an obvious conflict of interest and we always maintained that.
But then once you departed from your role to take
over as general manager the Riveters, I joined the PA,
And I think the point that's lost is when you
look at all of these other PAS, NHL, NFL, WNBA, NWSL,
(24:55):
there is a combination both of veteran and rookie presence, right.
But then also the people who benefit most from the
protections of the PA are not the superstars. You're going
to get paid anyways, you're going to get what you
want anyways, You're going to be protected anyways because you're
the superstar. So you need those people, right Like you
(25:18):
look at Asia Wilson, a strong voice for the WNBPA,
but she uses her privilege to recognize that, like, hey,
these are things that everyone else should have, So we
need to get people in women's hockey to get to
that place. One but two, when I was on the
PA with the Riveters, I was a representative, and then
it was a younger player who could then learn and understand,
(25:39):
and then, you know, the eventual plan was when my
time was up, that player would become the veteran representative
and we would you know, nominate and vote in someone younger.
So the PA wasn't going through this constant turnover. It
was always growing and everyone across the league understood what
was going on at all times. And I think that
that's hugely important, is that players have to recognize just
(25:59):
the most popular person, the best player, the this, the
that like that is not always the best representative of
your interest. The person that you want sitting in that
seat is the person who represents the common interest. Really,
it's the middle guy or the middle gal, the person
who understands what it's like to struggle to pay rent,
the person who relies on getting per diem right like
(26:21):
no shade. But my last season with the team, when
I was at training camp, we were supposed to get
per diem I never got per diem, and while you know,
I'm fortunate in a position that I was able to
pay my bills, it's just different problems for different people.
And the person who is fighting that battle and in
that seat having those conversations making sure things are followed
through on needs to be the person who either won
(26:42):
understands what it's like to be in a position of
privilege and power and recognize the responsibility that that that holds,
or two, someone who relies on those benefits and relies
on those things and needs to fight that fight to
survive and make it better for the next person so
they don't have to fight as hard. And that is
the biggest miss right now with that PA is that
(27:03):
they are not fighting for the common person, and the
people who benefit most will be long gone by the
time that thing unravels.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
If we're going to continue to talk about things from
the perspective of like what's good and what's working really well,
I think it's very very clear when you look at
the WNBPA website. The WMBPA is meant to prop up
its players individually and as a collective. So if somebody
has a clothing line on the WNBPA you can search
(27:46):
every single good product, service book, foundation by player. It
isn't just the players on the PA. It isn't just
the players on the national team. It is every single
business venture invested in by the players of the of
(28:07):
the WNBPA, of the collective group, both present and alumni.
It is clear to me that the essence of the
WNBPA is to get their players paid respect more options
at bats, investments.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
It's a bigger thing.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And I think when we forget that the PA has
to take care of the life span of its player
throughout playing years to alumni years, we become callous to
the fact that a player will play in the league
and will subsequently leave the league at some point in
time and continue to go on and they are a
legacy member of what made you great? Alumni association is
(28:44):
the biggest gap in all of women's hockey. Sure, there's
a thousand things we can point out, from the PA
to four oh one ks to pension to all these
really really, really important things, and I would say those
are probably paramount But to day, if someone played pro
hockey and comes back into the rink right, nobody cares.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Well. It's just a complete lack of respect for the
history of the game and a disillusion that this is
the first women's professional league that ever existed.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
But it also is a gap from a perspective of
the whole life of the player, So like that is
also things that we are missing in these negotiations, and
that's what we're missing in women's hockey is if Tamika
Catching's comes right now, or we used to go to
Liberty games and how many times did they show old
libs in the in the stands, they were courts eyed
(29:33):
all the time because.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
It didn't matter who you did were like, it didn't
matter how long you played, who you were, what your
record was, like, if you were a player, you all
got the same treatment.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And you all felt incredibly respected. And I think that
that's always the thing. Like I joke and I get
to be Madison Packerd's wife, and that's a humongous part
of my life and I'm perfectly happy with that. But
an entirely new piece formed, and I'm the longest tenured
executive director of a separate PA that fought all these
(30:06):
similar battles. No one's ever contacted me, no one's ever called,
no one's ever asked me what brands worked well with us.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It's like it never existed.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And it's just years and years and years of work
that are completely lost. I mean, I say all the
time it wasn't me alone, but I want to Forbes
thirty under thirty for my work on the PA and
it's well, just.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Like it's just a weird sense of like, I don't know,
maybe you and I in the circle that we run
in is unique in that, like it comes from a
genuine place of wanting the game to be better, but
there's just this odd like aura. And I think that
the only way it's going to get better is with time.
(30:52):
And again, it's not about credit, right, Like I don't
That's not what it's about. And I think that that
is what is difficult for people to understand that It's like, oh,
it's like glomming onto something. It's wanting credit for this
or that or the other, Like I mean, it has
nothing to do with that. It's wanting butts in seats.
It's wanting the team that lives in my backyard to
be successful. It's wanting these players to get more. It's wanting,
(31:16):
you know, to be able to have Harlan play in
a league that matters right now, Harlan's playing tennis or
golf or basketball.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Let's hope she's tall. But you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I mean like but but like it's for real. It's wanting,
like as a little kid, to be able to turn
the TV on it and have that kid have pride
in what they're chasing because it's not like, oh, you
play pro hockey. It's having to justify your value as
a professional. And it's so absurd. And I agree that,
Like it's crazy, and it's not just about the money
(31:45):
you're making, right pay Equity is not dollar for dollar.
You know, I should be paid what McDavid is getting.
It's equity in resources and access to those resources. And
what do women need that men don't and should we
get paid more? For sure, you have to prove your value.
You have to find ways to generate revenue. I mean,
the NHL guys don't get paid as much as the
(32:06):
baseball guys. It's all a business. But all of that said,
there is a much faster way to climb that mountain
if we were just all willing to work together. And
now it just seems like anything that was in the
past is in the past, and can't be spoken about
and anything in the future. You know, we're forging a
head full force, and it's gonna take a lot longer
to get there if we just pretend like it started
(32:28):
two years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, I mean it opens up a lot of questioning
and it just continues to expose maybe the mindset that's
keeping women talking in the position that it's in. I
always felt like, if I was the smartest person in
the room, then we were a pretty stupid room. And
I think I'm a smart gal. Listen, I think I'm
(32:52):
a smart gal. But I was always certain that if
I was the smartest person in the room, if I
was the expert, holy we were in trouble. I wanted
to be the orchestration of what the smart people were
doing and saying. I wanted to definitely be the leader.
I want to guide appropriately. I want to like, you know,
audit and edit what we were saying and doing. But
(33:13):
I was perfectly fine not being the original generator of
every single concept.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
When you can't accept I think that's a danger. I
think that my position was frequently misunderstood because again in
our experience, right when I was in the NWHL and
the phf I had another job. You had a great job,
And honestly, it wasn't until meeting you that my perspective
on all of it changed. It's like, okay, wait, it's.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Not just about this.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
It's not just about filling my boat with as many
fish as I can. If I can, if I can
help other people fish, then we will all eat more, right.
And it's that mentality of like recognizing, if you're the
person in the highest position, use that position to benefit
everyone because you will only do better and so will
(34:01):
everyone around you, and then the boat will get bigger, faster, right.
And I think that that's the part that's missing. Like,
no one playing women's hockey right now, probably maybe the
most recent draft class or the Sarah filiates is gonna
make enough money playing women's hockey. That's all that they're
going to have to do. The incme, wouldn't it be
(34:22):
freaking awesome if we could work together to build a
league where in fifteen years that's possible for someone Because also,
remember the WNBA has been around for twenty seven years,
like it's been around for forever. That's the other thing. Well,
but we signed women's hockey is has not only been
(34:43):
around for two So are we gonna keep restarting every
time we have to have this conversation or are we
going to acknowledge that we have been doing this and
we all want to work together so that in ten
fifteen years, not twenty five years, players are making a
actual living retiring as a professional hockey player and then
(35:04):
they get to invest in a sports team or do
something else like that is the reality.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
The other challenges i'll and i'll just we should keep
talking about this because I think it's really important. Is
the hockey season is from October to May, right, so
that's the whole year, and the CBA calls for the
average annual income to be fifty five thousand. So in
the markets that we're asking these women to live in
with the unvaried housing compensation, everybody gets the same housing
(35:34):
compensation no.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Matter where they live.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Think about living in Seattle with that housing stipend as
it is, that is taxable, right because New York party
goering to come New York and then fifty five thousand,
and then for eight years we've locked in a three
percent rise that is exactly par to inflation.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
So it is not.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Hey, we're going to grow this league and it's going
to be a sliding scale up for the next eight years.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
It is exactly in Lockstown to inflation.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
So it is not saying we are going to continue
to commensate you more as this league grows. It's saying
you're going to still be making this fifty five grand
and then we're going to pace inflation for eight years.
And an athlete that has an incredible imagine your eight
year tenure in the PHF and you only got a
three percent rise. I mean, Madison, there was one year
(36:23):
you were making ten grand and the next you meet
seventy seven thousand. I mean that is going to be gone.
That doesn't exist in its current format. I do think
we should talk about this because at the end of
the day, while we're in off season, there is a
thousand ideas that could come into enrich women's hockey. And
(36:44):
what people don't realize is women's hockey players are three
to an apartment. We're getting couches on Facebook marketplace. We're
scratching for pennies. We are donating our time at the
gym so that we can work out for free. We
are asking people that may have a skating coach if
we can use the corner of the ice that they're
(37:04):
not using. That is how these athletes are putting this
product on the ice. I would say ninety percent of them.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Right when I.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Was playing, we had two people living in our house
paying us fifty percent of their housing stipend so they
could put a little more money in their pocket.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And so that is the reality that we are currently
living in in women's hockey. And so when we constantly,
when you and I constantly critique, why is the fashion
not there? Why is the social media not there? Why
is the marketing not there? Well, I know why.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Because they don't have any time, they don't have any.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Money, and they don't have any ability to go do
all these things without constantly worrying about work and income.
And that does not a professional athlete make. So let's
talk about it again again. One hundred ways. Flip it
upside down, look at it backwards, look at the marketing dollars,
look at the sponsorships that could be our off season topic.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Let's look at it a thousand different ways. We'll flip
it on its head.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
We'll look at it from a market standpoint, from an
investment standpoint, from a dollar standpoint, I'm wearing my invest
In Women's Sports T shirt today because I'm so passionate
about it. But I really think this conversation could go
on for like one hundred episodes.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Well, I too am very passionate about the conversation and
have a deep love and appreciation for the PA. After all,
that is how we met. As I called you and
I was like, what do you even do? What do
you even do? And turns out here we are, how
many years later, so lots of love. Want to keep
seeing good things happen. Like you said, we could have
(38:32):
this conversation for hours, but for now we'll put pencils
down until the next episode. Thanks for listening to These
packs Puck.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Pencils down.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
That's it for this week. Thanks for listening, and.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
If you like what you heard, spread the word seriously
right now, take your phone out, text a friend and
tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps Until next week. I'm Madison Pact and.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I'm onya Packer and this was These Pax Puck.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
These Pax Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by Us
Madison and Onyapacker. Emily Meronoff is our senior producer and
story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Deo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So buckle the puck up, because there is a lot
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hi, Maddie, Hello, Anya.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You know, I think it's crazy I call you Maddie.
And when somebody who didn't like when I didn't know
you and someone called you Maddie to me, I like
almost got the ick. I was like, she's too like
tough and rough and not nice to have that nickname.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Sometimes you call me pack. I like when you call
me pack.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
No, But I'm just saying, like, I think it's not
an aligned nickname for you, like Maddie. Yeah, and you're like,
so you're like ripped and big and mean looking, but
you're not. You're very sweet and said today more anyway,
Hi Maddie, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hello, I'm quite tired, Quite tired but we can get
into that later. Okay, well, what are we going to
get into? Firm I'm excited for the episode. We got
a solo EPI. I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I know you like to talk to me, so you
want to get into the.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hot take, and this is going to be a good one.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Take it away, hoty hot take.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Today's hot take is, well the hot take. This isn't
a hot take. The w NBA All Star Game was incredible.
It was awesome, very entertaining. Viewership a little down because
our girl Caitlin Clark was not participating. However, you're obsessed.
It's still popped off. My hot take is I think
it's a huge shame, in an absolute miss that the
(01:44):
PWHL doesn't do it. I don't really understand it because
year one they did that thing with the NHL, which
just kind of felt like piecemealing and piggybacking on what
the PWHPA had done. It just like felt like such
a shame and missed opportunity that we don't do that
because it one provides fan engagement because you usually have
(02:05):
you know, fans vote players in, and so you get
some players that aren't quote unquote the best of the
best of the best. But also I feel like there's
an opportunity you could take maybe one of these takeover
tour markets and put an All Star Game there, and
then I mean that would pop off. You have all
of the best that in one spot. It's an entertaining weekend.
All the players are together, it's a blast. I played
(02:27):
in six All Star Games in my time with the
PHF and NWHL, and it just provides a different opportunity
for players to interact. And I think it's a huge
miss that they don't do it.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I actually fully agree, and I think the reason that
they don't is it's very expensive. It doesn't feel like
an obvious slam dunk. It's hard to sell sponsorships when
you're already trying to sell sponsorships in a startup league.
When I was the head of the PA in the NWHL,
it was always a big fight, right, Like it was
like are we having this weekend? Because it's incredibly expensive,
(02:56):
it's hard to find a place to host it. It
needs to be big, needs to be bad, It needs
to have production quality, like, it needs to have all
these things. So from a league standpoint, it's always one
of the first things on the chopping block, like should
we get rid of this? It's hard to program, it's
hard to sell. We're already trying to sell sponsorships for
the league and the teams. Do we have to add
this second or third or fourth product, right? And the
(03:18):
answer is yes, Like if we look just at what
happened in the n WNBA, I think that the star
of the show personally was the stud Buds. So the
stud Buds in a seventy two hour live where they
literally broadcast everything. Someone just followed them around with the
camera and it was hilarious. They like exposed all this tea,
they exposed to each other. They like it was just
(03:39):
honestly pure and hilarious and amazing content. And everyone online
is talking about it. They're talking about they what they learned,
what they uncovered, the little like nuggets and like all
these other elements of it. It was a bunch of
like gay drama. Who's dating who, who's holding who's hand,
who was grinding on who, who's doing this at the club,
who's doing that? Like it was it's just hilarious, And
(04:01):
if I think about it, I was never in an
All Star Game. I MC two of them, and I
did secondary shoulder content at two others, So I was
included in four in some way, shape or form. And
I think that's the other thing that the All Star
Game does really well, and especially the WNBA, but we
back in the n of HLPHF days did a good
(04:22):
job of it. Is like creating this like narrative and
storytelling and ability for other non star quote quote players
to jump in and infuse their own brands and the
league with their personality, Like it's just so much fun.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, I preemptively exposed your pregnancy at the All Star Game.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
You did out out my pregnancy, which was absolutely heinous.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
That year you were the captain of the All Star team.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So for a little background, I get incredibly sick when
i'm pregnant, like throw up at the site of air
sick when I'm pregnant, and I was not twelve weeks
yet you.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Were like a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We did not tell him.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I was so excited.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
She was so excited.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
You were supposed to be on the ice, and the
you weren't a lot on the ice, and everyone's like,
why she's not going on the ice.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Maddy got a little tipsy. Maddy got a little tipsy
at her her team kickoff party. We bump in every
single person rubbed my stomach and said hi to me,
and I almost came out of my skin.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Whalan's big debuts big debut was as the All Star
secondary captain because everyone was then obsessed with him. But
I just think, why would we not? The WNBA All
Star quality and content and sponsorship is obviously tier one,
but to do nothing is embarrassing, especially when the NHL
(05:44):
All Star Game is like three days. Isn't it like
a three day event?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah? And I personally think that the While you might
think it was the stud buds, I think that the
star of the show was the T shirts that they
all wore. I think it's incredibly cool that the WMVPA
does everything in Lockstown. But for those who don't know,
they wore T shirts that said pay us what we're owed.
So we will get into that in a little bit
as well. But overall, I think it was a smashing
(06:08):
success for the WNBA, and I hope to see it
in the future for the PWHL because I think that
it would be equally successful. So time agree all of
that to say, speaking of star power, let's do a
little check in how you feel and mommy, are you tired?
Is your back hurt from carrying the team? Where we are?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
My back does not hurt from carrying the team. I
feel pretty good. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, so
we drove home.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
We did the whole chaos, and honestly, I didn't feel
like the car smelled like gasoline at all until I
just got into it to put the kids in the car,
and it re reminds me that I sat in it
for fourteen hours and it does smell like gasoline. But
we're home now, and I did most of the driving
because your license conveniently expired like a day before we
had to do this drive. I think this was all
(06:51):
a big ploy so that I had to do all
the driving. I did not mind it in the slightest.
I get so nauseous driving. But I'm tired today. I'm
a I'm like a thirty five. I did not work out.
I don't feel good. I don't feel like i'm I'm
just like I want to sleep all day and I
can't well.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
What DMV doesn't send you a reminder that your license is.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Every every DMV. Ever, no one's ever sent me a reminder.
It's just you just use your eyes and look at
your license.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And look at the expiring bait.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I didn't know. I didn't know until I went to
buy beer up North and they were like, your license
is expired. Okay, well i'll bring you up. I'm at
like an eighty seven. Actually no, I met like a
ninety six. That was way too low. I'm a ninety
six too low, and I would be a one hundred.
I got to work out with Vic today. Shout out
to my man Bic at the boxing gym. I love
that man. He kicks my ass every time I'm in
(07:39):
the gym. I haven't seen him for a bit because
we've been gone. He told me he was going to
take it easy on me. But then I went to
a class last night and like for those who aren't
familiar with boxing, it's like combinations, and they're not you
can't just look them up online, like they're unique to
every gym. And so I worked my way all the
way up to nine and then you forgot them all
and I was so pumped. And then I wasn't there
for like three weeks and I forgot them but like
(08:00):
it comes back really quickly. So today I remembered them.
But yesterday at class he was like, I got lost
on four and he like smacked me in the side
of the head with a pad and was like good
into buckl Lawn. And then today I went in for
class and he's like, uh uh, you get two mistakes
and he hit me with seven, like right off the bat.
So he made me puke, which I needed. But yeah,
I'm feeling good. I got to sleep in a little bit,
(08:23):
thank you. I'm taking Wayland to buy some baseball pants later.
He's got his first baseball practice tomorrow, so and I'm
excited to be home. We had a good, good meal
last night, good homemade cooking. Now that we're back, so
I'm good. You could take a nap later, I'll.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
You said you were going to be one hundred, but
you had lost four points. What are the minus four
points from?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Because I threw up?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Oh oh oh, all right, well then there you go.
That's a good reason. I guess.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah. It wasn't great, but I made it outside the gym,
so that was good.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
That's all you can ask for. If you're gonna throw
up while working out, let's just hope. It's like in
a toilet, in a in an outside experience. The barrel
inside the gym never feels good. You don't look cute,
you don't look strong. It's not a good feeling. And
then you have the wipe throw up off your face
with the shirt that you're wearing, and then inevitably go
right back into the workout and take the bag throw
(09:16):
up while working out or and it's not for any like,
it's not because I'm not in shape or I'm not
fit or whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
I think. I just get so excited when I'm working out.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That I don't breathe and then I throw up, and
then I can just keep working out.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Is that weird?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Oh that's only the third time or a third or
fourth time it happened.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I can't say the same.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I can genuinely count probably over over fifty times that
I've thrown up while working out, from college to pros.
Just in those just in those six years, seven years.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Should see a doctor about that.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's not normal anyway. I'm glad that we've all that said.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
We're over one hundred, so the packer house is cooking.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
We're fired up.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I heard a little rumor that when the babysitter or
excuse me. I heard a little rumor that when the
nanny has to go, you're going to take the kids
independently so that I can continue to be alone.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
I am also shout out to well, she is the goat.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
She actually is the goat MVP. Yeah, we're like pulling
our hair out running downstairs. She's so chill, She's like,
it's okay. I'm like, what do you mean they're being
so bad? She's like, that's sorry. There's actually like a Before.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I go into the next thing, I do want to
talk about this quick concept that has come out. I
watched Kylie Kelsey talk about this, and it's called the
feral Kids summer. It's where you don't overcorrect everything your
kids are doing and just like let them operate like
feral beings. And while it's very hard, I try to
do that when we are outside. Maybe not inside because
inside it gets truly chaotic. But like if the kids
(10:46):
want to bug hunt or play in mud, or like
pick weeds or like climb through the woods, short of
the fact that we have a lot of toois and
I listen, generally, just do whatever I think that time
where they can just be completely feral is kind of fun.
So I'm gonna embrace the feral kids summer. So we
have a solo episode today. We're going to get into
(11:07):
all things. And you talked about the past, what we're
ode shirts and the PA and the CBA and all
those negotiations. We've lived it, so we're going to talk
a little bit about that after the ad break. All right, pack,
(11:31):
I think there's a ways that we can talk about
this that would be really interesting and add some kind
of nuance to the general conversation. But let's start with
the shirts, the WNBPA and maybe what you absolutely loved
about it and what's going on there.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, so they're in negotiations for their new CBA, right,
And I think that I said before, I just love
everything that their PA does. I think that they have
a really strong leader in Terry Jackson. I think he's incredible.
I've met her a few times. I was on a
panel with her for the ESPN W Summit, and she's
just a true leader and a force. And you know,
(12:08):
she's so experienced in what she does and she's not
going to compromise at all for those athletes, and I
think that that's powerful I think that those athletes have
proven their worth. They're proven that they can sell tickets,
that they're worth watching, that the value of their product
has increased dramatically from when you know these discussions happened.
They have absolutely proven that their product has increased in
(12:30):
value since the last negotiations, and I think that they're
dramatically underpaid. I think that they're an industry leader across sport.
So I think it was a strong and bold statement
by them. Those women are not going to compromise, and
they know their value and they're going to.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Fight for it.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think the thing that also rates is major eyebrows.
And I think everyone always talks about like the salary
and like, yes, there's there's a problem in the salary
compensation for WNBPA players or just generally female athletes. But
here's the craziest thing the WA The WNBA players receive
nine point three percent of the league's current revenue.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Okay, NBA fifty percent.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It's not a question of just give us a higher
salary cap, give us more money, like, it's not a
question of that. It's a question of you are profiting
off our necks and we are getting a fraction they're
getting a fifth of what the NBA players get, and
the NBA salaries are what they are.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well and two, right, the relationship between the NBA and
the WNBA prohibits and significantly limits what those women can
have access to because right the partnerships that exist, it's
like the NBA has X, you have to give the
WNBA Y and this partnership is limited because of this partnership.
And the women I think have taken a stance of
we don't want that, while we are grateful for the
(13:50):
support we receive to this point from the NBA, And
that's where I think the PWHL, you know, it needs
to learn a little bit like you cannot rely on
just a handout in essentially a donation from a partnership
from a league that doesn't work. But you also can't
say no, we don't need you, we don't want you,
like the WNBA is at a point now where it
(14:10):
can breathe on its own, and they would be better
off to be able to have these partnerships on their
own because the dollar there, I think would be more
valuable and it would be much higher. The PWHL in
the antithesis has almost no relationship with the NHL because
they're trying to prove right that they can survive on
their own. And the reality is, until you get to
(14:31):
the point where you can, there needs to be an
equitable and mutually beneficial partnership. And right now, the WNBA
and the end of NBA do not have a mutually
beneficial partnership. The NBA profits significantly from its partnership with
the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And on top of all of that, women's basketball players
have other options. They have Unrivaled that put out two
hundred and twenty thousand dollars compensation packages for their athletes.
I mean that's almost at the supermacs. But there's other
avidue and that's the FISA Collier and Brianna Stewart saying, Okay,
we're athletes. We have all these partnerships, we have all
these connections, like, let's build something pretty dope. And I
(15:08):
think it's without question that what Unrivaled did for the
world of women's basketball is going to flip it on
its head. And you can't say all of this exists,
but our CBA negotiations are going to continue to yield
a fraction of a return on their two point two
billion excuse me.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Let me just cap that with a capital.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
B billion dollar media deal, that's their NIL, that's them.
And like expansion fees are in the you know, a
couple hundred million mark, they're expanding teams like crazy. I
like the point that you made. Let me not get
too crazy on the numbers. Let me just call it
what it is. When the relationship is completely tethered to
the NBA, the answer is the NBA is going to
(15:48):
get their bag and then whatever's leftover is going to
the w And that was always so we'll talk about
our own backgrounds, but that was always my challenge when
we would say, oh, as a women's talk league, we
need the NHL, when the NHL is very clear that
if they're going to invest in more hockey, it's going
to be men's hockey. Internationally, it's not women's hockey. Here
(16:10):
are the home front and the more we get confused
with their viewership, but.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
That's the NHL, right, That's the NHL. That's not and
that's where it's interesting because teams don't feel that way
the league, but NHL. One or two individuals who have
the most power at the NHL.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Correct and there's a lot of movers and shakers within
the NHL that don't agree anyway, I want to go
into what I think is of CBA conversations.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
We've both gone through negotiations.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I've been the players Association head, I've worked really closely
with Terry Jackson on some of that stuff. And you've
been a representative, you've been a captain, you've been a player, right,
like all these different things.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I think it's.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Interesting because everyone would assume that what the WNBA players
are arguing about, or what all of us are arguing about,
is more luxury, and the answer is we just want
fors like it's not even close to the same kind
of conversations, and the optics of a professional athlete are, oh,
(17:10):
everything's great, it's similar, but it really isn't. So I
think something super interesting right off the base is to
just maybe talk about what it is and what it isn't,
you know, like being a pro athlete, medicine, what is
it and what is it not?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Well, so it was very different right in the NWHL.
It was the worst it ever was. It started out okay,
and then we started to realize, you know, what things
were supposed to look like. National team players were getting
more benefits and more resources at that level, and so
then they were coming back and giving feedback at the
professional level of hey, this isn't right. That isn't right,
(17:49):
which kind of was part of what led to the divide.
But then, to be clear, there was never a point.
I mean, and I guess it differs because everyone has
a different reality and a different story. But you know,
I think year one and two were the worst, and
then year three it got a little better. And then
year four when there was you know, this like flag
(18:09):
in the sand of like, hey, this has to change
or else, and then everyone left. It was a real
wake up call for the league. And then there was
a huge change in ownership, a huge change in leadership,
and things did get astronomically better. And you and I've
talked about this before, we had a PA. You then
took over the PA, and we were able to benefit
from profit sharing and sponsorship sharing and ticket sales sharing,
(18:31):
like those were all things that put real money in
players pockets. We also had real equipment sponsors, Like things
got better. Were things the best that they ever ever were? No,
But I also look at the current landscape and I
have a real problem with the current CBA for the
PWHL A lot of people do. My number one problem
is that the majority of players playing in that league
(18:52):
were not allowed to vote on that CBA. And I
think that that's concerning, and that's you know, that's just fact.
You know, when the the PHF was acquired in July
two years ago, the players of the PWHPA had not
yet voted on that CBA, and it was very clear
that the active player pool was going to consist mostly
of PHF. There were going to be more PHF and
(19:13):
international players combined than former PWh PA players participating in
the new league. But none of those players were allowed
to see the CBA. None of those players were allowed
to vote on the CBA. Jana Hefford was a part
of those conversations. Who was going to be you know,
the whatever her title is, commissioner, you know, senior whatever
of the new league. She's in charge. So to have
(19:34):
a person like that in charge of, you know, negotiation
conversations for a CBA is inappropriate. The fact that it
has the guarantees that it has to protect players who
will not outlive the length of the CBA, and you know,
those benefits and protections benefit only them and then you know,
the reality of the CBA starts to hit and the
things trickled down and you have all these players being like, wait,
(19:56):
I didn't understand that properly, and so I think that
that's a real conversation that everyone is afraid to have
that while there is a CBA in place, and every
league says this right. Once you have a CBA and
it passes, you're like, oh, now we need to put
this now, we need to put that right. And a
strong CBA has compromise on both sides. Correct, But the
reality of the situation in the PWHL is one you
(20:18):
had a lot of players who were I don't want
to say used, because I don't think that that's fair,
but you had a lot of players who were misguided
in what they were voting for, and then when they
figured it out, it was too late. Behind the scenes
conversation is that's not what I thought I was voting for.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
The challenge is this, And I will say this from
my perspective.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
My perspective is I was a player, I was the
head of the PA, I was very I was very inexperienced.
Obviously I was just starting it at the first moment,
and so what I did was I tried to get
as many lawyers, as many experts, as many people that
I possibly could, to fill my brain with as much
information as I possibly could, so that I could try
(20:58):
to disseminate effectively the definition of what we were doing.
And I think that that got lost in this process
is to really slow down because a CBA is not
a race, it's a march. And it very much felt
like we want this to be our CBA, so we
want a race to the finish line here and accept
(21:20):
anything at all costs so that it just gets done
so that we get our league. And what we lose
in that race is the reality that every single person
having a voice in every single idea being brought to
the table and every single thing really creates the change
that you want. I always said, and you brought it
up like you know, everyone was leaving, that's why the
(21:41):
league got better. Well, everyone was leaving, but they were
saying what was wrong, which is why the league got better.
I immediately in season five had two hundred critics to my
current standard player Agreement. So when I was the head
of the PA, I could take every single critique and
go to my players Association and say, hey, these are
(22:02):
all the reasons that these players will not play with us.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
How many can we change?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
How many do we care about, and how many do
we want to fight for? And we sat down with
a pretty exhaustive list of critiques and we went through
and we fought, and we went line by line by
line with the league. I remember it was grueling, it
was awful. But I had never gotten so much feedback
before in my life. And I think that people don't
(22:28):
recognize that when we sprinted toward doing that in women's hockey,
so that it was you know, the PWHPA or whomever
they wanted to claim themselves to be, we forgot that
the PHF, the NWHL, like all those people had already
gotten a lot of victories on this battlefield, and we
left those victories there right like, let me give you
(22:48):
one benefit that I think is heralded as a benefit,
but you and I being that we fly more than
once a year, No, that it's not. Players can fly
with their children if they're under two years old. In
the CBA, an important byline of supporting mothers. Anyone with
kids under the age of two know that a lap
infant is free until two years old and so at
(23:11):
the exact say it's not a benefit, he's aline benefit.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
It's adult benefit.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Just says that you're allowed to bring your kid with
you on the road.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It's no benefit, it's no care, it's no extra per diem,
it's no support other than you don't have to share
your hotel room, which sharing a hotel room as an
adult professional athlete generally should be off limits, but we
do in women's hockey. We share hotel rooms. And the
only people that are allowed to have their own hotel
room is someone that flies with their children and then
(23:40):
pays additionally for a caregiver.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
We always paid for a second room anyway. Is because
also people parents with kids know, if you're sharing a
hotel room with your kid, no.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
One is sleeping, you're not performing.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
If you're sharing a hotel room with a kid under two,
three four, no one's sleeping.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So the race to get there accepted subpar benefits. And
there were mothers making the decisions, but they were making
the decisions from a position of privilege, right Like, those
are moms with partners, those are moms that have extra income,
Those are moms that have the ability to do those
things well.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
And I think that that's an important part of the
conversation when you look at the WMBPA and what it's
comprised of, right, and then you look at how things
were operated in the NWHL and the PHF. In the beginning,
captains were not allowed to be members of the PA, correct,
And then that kind of changed a little bit. And
then I was never allowed to be on the PA
(24:33):
while you were the head of the PA because that
was an obvious conflict of interest and we always maintained that.
But then once you departed from your role to take
over as general manager the Riveters, I joined the PA,
And I think the point that's lost is when you
look at all of these other PAS, NHL, NFL, WNBA, NWSL,
(24:55):
there is a combination both of veteran and rookie presence, right.
But then also the people who benefit most from the
protections of the PA are not the superstars. You're going
to get paid anyways, you're going to get what you
want anyways, You're going to be protected anyways because you're
the superstar. So you need those people, right Like you
(25:18):
look at Asia Wilson, a strong voice for the WNBPA,
but she uses her privilege to recognize that, like, hey,
these are things that everyone else should have, So we
need to get people in women's hockey to get to
that place. One but two, when I was on the
PA with the Riveters, I was a representative, and then
it was a younger player who could then learn and understand,
(25:39):
and then, you know, the eventual plan was when my
time was up, that player would become the veteran representative
and we would you know, nominate and vote in someone younger.
So the PA wasn't going through this constant turnover. It
was always growing and everyone across the league understood what
was going on at all times. And I think that
that's hugely important, is that players have to recognize just
(25:59):
the most popular person, the best player, the this, the
that like that is not always the best representative of
your interest. The person that you want sitting in that
seat is the person who represents the common interest. Really,
it's the middle guy or the middle gal, the person
who understands what it's like to struggle to pay rent,
the person who relies on getting per diem right like
(26:21):
no shade. But my last season with the team, when
I was at training camp, we were supposed to get
per diem I never got per diem, and while you know,
I'm fortunate in a position that I was able to
pay my bills, it's just different problems for different people.
And the person who is fighting that battle and in
that seat having those conversations making sure things are followed
through on needs to be the person who either won
(26:42):
understands what it's like to be in a position of
privilege and power and recognize the responsibility that that that holds,
or two, someone who relies on those benefits and relies
on those things and needs to fight that fight to
survive and make it better for the next person so
they don't have to fight as hard. And that is
the biggest miss right now with that PA is that
(27:03):
they are not fighting for the common person, and the
people who benefit most will be long gone by the
time that thing unravels.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
If we're going to continue to talk about things from
the perspective of like what's good and what's working really well,
I think it's very very clear when you look at
the WNBPA website. The WMBPA is meant to prop up
its players individually and as a collective. So if somebody
has a clothing line on the WNBPA you can search
(27:46):
every single good product, service book, foundation by player. It
isn't just the players on the PA. It isn't just
the players on the national team. It is every single
business venture invested in by the players of the of
(28:07):
the WNBPA, of the collective group, both present and alumni.
It is clear to me that the essence of the
WNBPA is to get their players paid respect more options
at bats, investments.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
It's a bigger thing.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And I think when we forget that the PA has
to take care of the life span of its player
throughout playing years to alumni years, we become callous to
the fact that a player will play in the league
and will subsequently leave the league at some point in
time and continue to go on and they are a
legacy member of what made you great? Alumni association is
(28:44):
the biggest gap in all of women's hockey. Sure, there's
a thousand things we can point out, from the PA
to four oh one ks to pension to all these
really really, really important things, and I would say those
are probably paramount But to day, if someone played pro
hockey and comes back into the rink right, nobody cares.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Well. It's just a complete lack of respect for the
history of the game and a disillusion that this is
the first women's professional league that ever existed.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
But it also is a gap from a perspective of
the whole life of the player, So like that is
also things that we are missing in these negotiations, and
that's what we're missing in women's hockey is if Tamika
Catching's comes right now, or we used to go to
Liberty games and how many times did they show old
libs in the in the stands, they were courts eyed
(29:33):
all the time because.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
It didn't matter who you did were like, it didn't
matter how long you played, who you were, what your
record was, like, if you were a player, you all
got the same treatment.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And you all felt incredibly respected. And I think that
that's always the thing. Like I joke and I get
to be Madison Packerd's wife, and that's a humongous part
of my life and I'm perfectly happy with that. But
an entirely new piece formed, and I'm the longest tenured
executive director of a separate PA that fought all these
(30:06):
similar battles. No one's ever contacted me, no one's ever called,
no one's ever asked me what brands worked well with us.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It's like it never existed.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And it's just years and years and years of work
that are completely lost. I mean, I say all the
time it wasn't me alone, but I want to Forbes
thirty under thirty for my work on the PA and
it's well, just.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Like it's just a weird sense of like, I don't know,
maybe you and I in the circle that we run
in is unique in that, like it comes from a
genuine place of wanting the game to be better, but
there's just this odd like aura. And I think that
the only way it's going to get better is with time.
(30:52):
And again, it's not about credit, right, Like I don't
That's not what it's about. And I think that that
is what is difficult for people to understand that It's like, oh,
it's like glomming onto something. It's wanting credit for this
or that or the other, Like I mean, it has
nothing to do with that. It's wanting butts in seats.
It's wanting the team that lives in my backyard to
be successful. It's wanting these players to get more. It's wanting,
(31:16):
you know, to be able to have Harlan play in
a league that matters right now, Harlan's playing tennis or
golf or basketball.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Let's hope she's tall. But you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I mean like but but like it's for real. It's wanting,
like as a little kid, to be able to turn
the TV on it and have that kid have pride
in what they're chasing because it's not like, oh, you
play pro hockey. It's having to justify your value as
a professional. And it's so absurd. And I agree that,
Like it's crazy, and it's not just about the money
(31:45):
you're making, right pay Equity is not dollar for dollar.
You know, I should be paid what McDavid is getting.
It's equity in resources and access to those resources. And
what do women need that men don't and should we
get paid more? For sure, you have to prove your value.
You have to find ways to generate revenue. I mean,
the NHL guys don't get paid as much as the
(32:06):
baseball guys. It's all a business. But all of that said,
there is a much faster way to climb that mountain
if we were just all willing to work together. And
now it just seems like anything that was in the
past is in the past, and can't be spoken about
and anything in the future. You know, we're forging a
head full force, and it's gonna take a lot longer
to get there if we just pretend like it started
(32:28):
two years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, I mean it opens up a lot of questioning
and it just continues to expose maybe the mindset that's
keeping women talking in the position that it's in. I
always felt like, if I was the smartest person in
the room, then we were a pretty stupid room. And
I think I'm a smart gal. Listen, I think I'm
(32:52):
a smart gal. But I was always certain that if
I was the smartest person in the room, if I
was the expert, holy we were in trouble. I wanted
to be the orchestration of what the smart people were
doing and saying. I wanted to definitely be the leader.
I want to guide appropriately. I want to like, you know,
audit and edit what we were saying and doing. But
(33:13):
I was perfectly fine not being the original generator of
every single concept.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
When you can't accept I think that's a danger. I
think that my position was frequently misunderstood because again in
our experience, right when I was in the NWHL and
the phf I had another job. You had a great job,
And honestly, it wasn't until meeting you that my perspective
on all of it changed. It's like, okay, wait, it's.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Not just about this.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
It's not just about filling my boat with as many
fish as I can. If I can, if I can
help other people fish, then we will all eat more, right.
And it's that mentality of like recognizing, if you're the
person in the highest position, use that position to benefit
everyone because you will only do better and so will
(34:01):
everyone around you, and then the boat will get bigger, faster, right.
And I think that that's the part that's missing. Like,
no one playing women's hockey right now, probably maybe the
most recent draft class or the Sarah filiates is gonna
make enough money playing women's hockey. That's all that they're
going to have to do. The incme, wouldn't it be
(34:22):
freaking awesome if we could work together to build a
league where in fifteen years that's possible for someone Because also,
remember the WNBA has been around for twenty seven years,
like it's been around for forever. That's the other thing. Well,
but we signed women's hockey is has not only been
(34:43):
around for two So are we gonna keep restarting every
time we have to have this conversation or are we
going to acknowledge that we have been doing this and
we all want to work together so that in ten
fifteen years, not twenty five years, players are making a
actual living retiring as a professional hockey player and then
(35:04):
they get to invest in a sports team or do
something else like that is the reality.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
The other challenges i'll and i'll just we should keep
talking about this because I think it's really important. Is
the hockey season is from October to May, right, so
that's the whole year, and the CBA calls for the
average annual income to be fifty five thousand. So in
the markets that we're asking these women to live in
with the unvaried housing compensation, everybody gets the same housing
(35:34):
compensation no.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Matter where they live.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Think about living in Seattle with that housing stipend as
it is, that is taxable, right because New York party
goering to come New York and then fifty five thousand,
and then for eight years we've locked in a three
percent rise that is exactly par to inflation.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
So it is not.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Hey, we're going to grow this league and it's going
to be a sliding scale up for the next eight years.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
It is exactly in Lockstown to inflation.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
So it is not saying we are going to continue
to commensate you more as this league grows. It's saying
you're going to still be making this fifty five grand
and then we're going to pace inflation for eight years.
And an athlete that has an incredible imagine your eight
year tenure in the PHF and you only got a
three percent rise. I mean, Madison, there was one year
(36:23):
you were making ten grand and the next you meet
seventy seven thousand. I mean that is going to be gone.
That doesn't exist in its current format. I do think
we should talk about this because at the end of
the day, while we're in off season, there is a
thousand ideas that could come into enrich women's hockey. And
(36:44):
what people don't realize is women's hockey players are three
to an apartment. We're getting couches on Facebook marketplace. We're
scratching for pennies. We are donating our time at the
gym so that we can work out for free. We
are asking people that may have a skating coach if
we can use the corner of the ice that they're
(37:04):
not using. That is how these athletes are putting this
product on the ice. I would say ninety percent of them.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Right when I.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Was playing, we had two people living in our house
paying us fifty percent of their housing stipend so they
could put a little more money in their pocket.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And so that is the reality that we are currently
living in in women's hockey. And so when we constantly,
when you and I constantly critique, why is the fashion
not there? Why is the social media not there? Why
is the marketing not there? Well, I know why.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Because they don't have any time, they don't have any.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Money, and they don't have any ability to go do
all these things without constantly worrying about work and income.
And that does not a professional athlete make. So let's
talk about it again again. One hundred ways. Flip it
upside down, look at it backwards, look at the marketing dollars,
look at the sponsorships that could be our off season topic.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Let's look at it a thousand different ways. We'll flip
it on its head.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
We'll look at it from a market standpoint, from an
investment standpoint, from a dollar standpoint, I'm wearing my invest
In Women's Sports T shirt today because I'm so passionate
about it. But I really think this conversation could go
on for like one hundred episodes.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Well, I too am very passionate about the conversation and
have a deep love and appreciation for the PA. After all,
that is how we met. As I called you and
I was like, what do you even do? What do
you even do? And turns out here we are, how
many years later, so lots of love. Want to keep
seeing good things happen. Like you said, we could have
(38:32):
this conversation for hours, but for now we'll put pencils
down until the next episode. Thanks for listening to These
packs Puck.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Pencils down.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
That's it for this week. Thanks for listening, and.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
If you like what you heard, spread the word seriously
right now, take your phone out, text a friend and
tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps Until next week. I'm Madison Pact and.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I'm onya Packer and this was These Pax Puck.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
These Pax Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by Us
Madison and Onyapacker. Emily Meronoff is our senior producer and
story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Deo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
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