April 29, 2025 • 48 mins
It’s been nearly six months since Madison’s retirement, so today the Packers are finally catching up on what life looks like now. Madison gets real about the tough transition to more time at home and tries to answer the daunting question: what’s next? Anya shares her own, very different post-retirement struggles and how they altered her sense of identity. Together, they talk about the importance of a support network, the challenge of too much free time, and the need for better resources for retired athletes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm a recently retired pro hockey vet, a founding member
of the National Women's Hockey League, a pillar in the PHF,
and an inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
And I'm Anypacker, also a former pro hockey player, also
founding member of the National Women's Hockey League. But today
I'm a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Stan Anya and I met through hockey, then we got married,
and now we're moms to two awesome.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
And on our new podcast, These Packs Puck, we're opening
up about the chaos of our daily lives, between the
juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness
in between.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Hi Maddie, Hello, what's up right now?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
I'm a ceiling fan, true true true.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
USA Hockey's back on top in Worlds, and I have
a hockey hot take and I really want to jump
into it.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Let's do it, hockey hot take.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
We just listen to a friend podcast of ours jocks
and Jill's shout out to them. They're doing all the
best things talking about women's hockey. Talk about the two
thousand and nineteen Women's Worlds, the gold medal game in Finland,
and I have so many.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Thoughts, lots of thoughts.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Yes, So Finland beat Canada to advance to the gold
medal game against the United States in the twenty fifteen
World Championships. Already crazy, yeah, wild, And I never root
against the US, but in this particular situation, we were popped.
Because it's great for hockey, unreal For long story short,
Finland won in a lot of people's minds in the
(01:43):
moment because they scored in a goal was then called back.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You watch the replay over and over and over and over,
and the.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Hockey community was divided because it felt a lot like
Finland got robbed.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Let me give a little context here. So the game
goes into overtime. It's one one Petre Nineman gores a
literally it was empty net, like there's a loose net.
Puck comes out, pops it in. Finland wins. In everyone's mind,
the rink is going ballistic. Everyone's throwing the gloves off.
They're celebrating. They've won Worlds at Espo, their home, their
(02:16):
home ice, it's their home fans.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
They win.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Ten minutes of a goal review, IHF pulls it back
net net it ends up going all the way to
a shootout and USA wins. Whin the shootout is officially
in sudden death.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
USA wins. They go ballistic.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I'm playing at the time, and in my mind, like everybody's,
the IHF pulls some loose rule between the difference of
incidental contact and goali interference and it was a very
razer thin in my opinion, they got it wrong. But
Razor Thin call I agree, and I tweeted, I said
that was goal. That's all I wrote. That was a goal,
(02:58):
that was a period. I didn't at any I didn't
put any contacts behind it. I just wrote that was
a goal. And I decided to just speak my mind
because if I'm going to say it, I'm gonna say
it with my whole chest. I think the best thing
for the game, generally speaking, is for there to be
more parody across women's world's four nations, any tournament but
(03:19):
the Olympics. In the Olympics, I throw on the red,
white and blue. I'm obsessed. I want USA to win.
It's good for the country, it's good for girls hockey
enrollment in the United States, it's good for all the
things Olympics aside I'm rooting for parody. Finland won that game.
I tweeted, that's a goal. Immediately the dms are flooded.
(03:39):
People are tweeting back at me, and you'd think it's
just trolls online. It's literally the national team members tweeting
at me, liking their own tweets, cyberbullying me because, like
I said, I'm going to say with my whole chest,
I'm okay that people don't like me. And at the
end of the day, Finland should have won that game.
(04:00):
I think that's bullet I think they should know that.
People knew that, And in the antithesis, I get cyber
bullied by all the same people that already hate me,
and here we are.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
I think they still don't like me.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
That's all right, you do it, okay, Yeah, Like I'm
alright with that.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I'm okay if I think it's a goal and you
don't think it's a goal. At the end of the day,
we can agree to disagree. It's a sport, it's fandom.
A gold medal was awarded, it was not awarded to
who I thought it should have been, and we can
move on happily. But they make it, Finland makes it
pretty dang close. Again, the game was tight, and so
in the semifinals. Again for context, it was a one
(04:38):
goal game with Canada and Finland thought the puck was
off side.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
They thought Sarah Nurse was off sides.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
She brings a puck into the zone and they call
a challenge because they scored, making it three to one.
So they call a challenge on the on the play,
which means the refs review it and if they're wrong,
the goal would stand and Canada gets a power play.
Heartbreaking pla on the ice is upheld. It was a
dicey challenge. I wouldn't have called the challenge personally, you know,
(05:04):
I would have gotten on my horse and gone after it.
But they had to do it right, Like, it's tough
to come back when Canada starts to get you know, momentum.
So they call the challenge, they lose the challenge, they
go on, they go on the PK, then they score
a PK goal and then I mean within the period
it was like six to one.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Canada just throttled them.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yeah, I mean that was a tough call. I really
like Finland's program. I think that the you know, the
players are incredibly skilled. The Czech team is really really good.
Just hockey in general internationally has elevated so much.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
That was a tough call.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
They must have had an angle that they weren't showing
the replay of, or the coaches were just like, risk
it for the biscuit. But that's an awfully big risk
to take in a game that close. And then you
take like two minutes and fifteen seconds out of that game,
it's a completely different game.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
They got scored, then they got they got the penalty,
then they got scored on, then they got boom boom,
scored on again all.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Of a sudden, it was like five. Like, that's just
selling you.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Two to one versus Canada versus five to one is
a very different hole to climb out of. But kudos
to Finland, right because then they they played in the
bronze medal game the next day and they won.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
And I don't I don't know. I think that both
of those teams are very very good.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I think that Finland is probably a better team overall,
as is evident by the fact that they won, right,
But you look at the check game against the US
that the other semi final, that was a two to
one game that was a great hockey game.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
We're getting it.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
And like they only scored they scored the second goal
I think in the final minutes of the third period.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yeah, it was, it was deep into the game. That's
where like the twenty nineteen thing kills me, because we're
getting close to parody. And there was a period of time,
so let's call it twenty nineteen to twenty twenty four,
before or twenty three right before the PWHL started, there
was a lot of those international team players playing in
the PHF, So they were upskilling and up skilling and
upskilling and better and extending their careers and doing all
(06:56):
these things. And a bunch of them are still playing
in the SDHL right and like that league is starting
to infuse because as the PTERWHL cuts players, they continue
their career over there trying to you know, loop back
into the swing of it. You think of like a
sav Nor Cross or you know, kind of like that
pipeline of really good players that are also infusing that league.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
To get better.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
There's a there's a clear path for parody. The challenge
is and here's where I will and here's where where
I stand on business with my tweet. The challenge is
we can't just accept what the greatest national team players
say as law, and if we can challenge that constantly,
then we are going to continue to inch closer to parody,
(07:37):
to not being afraid to call out things, to ask
for more and better. This is like my pa headside
of my brain. But like, why are we okay with
the answers being the answers? Like let's question every answer,
Like why are all of the three year extended national
team contracts, I mean, I call them national team contracts,
but like the three year starting contracts across the entire league,
(07:59):
none of them went to international national team members. They
are all US and Canada players. And I'm not saying
that those aren't the best choices right now, but as
we look for parody, there are players that are so
freaking good.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
In my opinion, right hockey is not big enough in
the US or state side period, Canada, US, North America.
There's not enough talent here that's willing to either hang
on and or there's not a system in place for
kids to come straight out of college right because you
look at the turnover from last season to this season
I think was like sixty percent in the PWHPA. That's
crazy and that's not right. There were many, many, many,
(08:36):
many many veterans, myself included, could have continued their career.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Britt Howard could should write very different things.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
But you can't tell me that all of these rookies
that have come in are better right now than all
of the veterans that were upended. However, there's nowhere for
them to go. So wouldn't it be great if we
respected the system and we right sided everything and it
balance right. Because also you got to remember, no one's
making the money that everyone thinks that they're making. There's
(09:04):
a few people that are making it, and then there's
a shit ton of players that are making shit money.
I'm gonna say it, and no one else wants to
acknowledge that you're lying.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
That is true. That is the real narrative of women talking.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Right now, you have a few players making a ton
and a lot of players just barely scraping by. So
you either a cannot continue to play because you can't
afford it, or b we gotta like declog the system
because all of the players in Europe who will not
come here because they don't get paid enough, and so
they're the SDHL is a great league, a ton of
(09:36):
respect for. But wouldn't it be great if we took
our younger players, the majority of whom, in my opinion,
the majority of whom coming out of college are not
ready to play pro hockey immediately partner with the SDHL.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah, they's see. There has to be an affiliation program.
We're not there yet. We're getting close, I mean, but you.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Got to loosen up some of that money because the
best international players. If there's a handful here, but you're
missing a whole hell of a lot.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Yeah, we want parody. We want parity.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I want a world that is every game an absolute
like nail bitter, insane.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I want I want.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Worlds to feel like like World Juniors. That's what I want.
What I want is what we just saw in the
NHL so successfully for Nations Cup. I want it to
be every game that good. I don't want to watch
a pump over eight to one win in Worlds anymore.
I don't want to see these stats. Give me get
away from those Give me the twenty nineteen Gold medal game.
(10:36):
Whether I agree or disagree, that game was insane. On
the edge of your seat, you're gutting crying for Finland.
That's what I want, So give me more of that,
and let's be okay to call that out like, I'm
alright with that. So these are my hockey hot takes.
I feel passionately about them. I hate getting cyberbullied, but
I think I hate getting I hate getting cybral. People
(10:58):
hate to see me coming though, because my onions may
not always be correct, but I am certain of them.
So catch me on any platform, just speaking how I feel.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
And you know, at some point I.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Might get a little bullied, little bully bully, but that's okay.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
I'm alright with that.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I stand on my tweet.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
That was a goal.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I'll stop diving on that. I will stop reminiscing about
my twenty nineteen harassment, and I will I'll kick it
over to you on where you're at, what the check
in is feeling, like, what your vibes are.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
Where you at, girl.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
We are still in Southwest Florida, so I'm still buzzing
pretty high.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
I'm at like an eighty nine. You want to elaborate
or you just generally happy.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It's sunny. I got to work out today. I'm going
to the pool after this.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
My friends are coming down here for our annual girls' weekend.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I live for it. It's my favorite weekend of the year.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Girl's Weekend. Yes, we're gonna shred it up.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
It's like girls' weekend where we don't behave like girls
in the slightest like our girls. Yeah, our girl's weekend
is the boy's night. I last night, the air conditioning
was turning on and off, and Harlan was afraid. She
said it was a monster, and she cried a few times.
(12:16):
You got up a few times. And then the kids
sleep on these kid toddler bed mattress things that are
literally like sleeping on the floor.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
They're so hard, and you cap me in.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You said, hey, you go lay with her, so we swapped.
I went and slept with the kid. She has a
cough and snug and boogies, and I slept with Harlan.
She was abusive and sleeps on top of me and
had a little coffee chest, and I woke up with
a sore throat. So I'm at a solid forty two.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Well that needed to come up to at least in
eighty five. Otherwise you're uninvited from.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Girls again forty three.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
But you're still paying for it, but you're in a minute,
your your credit cards and but you are out.
Speaker 5 (13:03):
You're out.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, sponsored by American Express on his Express.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
We're uh, we're going through it a little bit with Harlan.
Anyone that's anyone that any any moms out there that
have a challenging curly top at home, throw some advice
in our comment section.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
We have a two year old who two and a half,
who will.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Not go to bed, very opiniated, very smart, So like
you hit her with something and she's like, no, that
is not right, Like it's.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
His wild We should This is what I learned.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So there was a TikTok that someone was like, you're
not a bad parent, you just don't lie to your
kids enough. And then we've decided to just start lying
to our kids. Madison goes, you know pre Easter was like, oh, guys,
the Easter bunny was hopping around, but he did hear
you guys yell at me.
Speaker 6 (13:52):
I don't think he's gonna come now, Like like, we've
got to just start lying to these kids more, because
I think the more we make it not our decision,
because Harlan's really good, Like you'd be like, oh, we're
not doing this because mommy said blank and she's like,
oh yeah, mommy, and that's when she's ready to brawl.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So is there any if there are any kids listening
right now, stop listening.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yeah, turn it off, because I did come up with
a good hack that I thought was helpful. At least,
I have a contact in my phone who happens to
be Santa and the Easter Bunny and the Birthday Fairy
and the Tooth Fairy all bundled up into one. And
(14:34):
so when we need a little extra motivation to make
sure that those people are going to stop by our house,
we give the old Easter Bunny a call. Say I
heard you were calling problems.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
We call it that the hop right over that house.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You you think that we're just raising smart kids that
are good and kind, we're calling Santa in March. We're
not over Yeah, we're not over the lying. We're not
We're the calling Santa. So all that to say, it's
a wild time over here. I need to start picking
up or I'm going to be kicked out of the
(15:09):
Girl's weekend.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
So I'm working on that.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
In the interest of that, Maddie, we are just going
to continue the conversation it's you and me today, baby,
So let's give everybody a little break, give the ears
a little break, and then we'll come back shortly.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I'm excited because this episode will be a little bit different, Maddie.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
We're going to talk about all the things currently happening
in our life, which isn't really an interview, but is
more of a conversation about what post hockey career looked
like for both of us and basically, like, gut check,
what the hell is going on in this house?
Speaker 5 (15:57):
I'm not gonna cry.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, that's gonna be the first time for that for sure.
I think it's interesting, like everybody would assume that retirement
is full of relaxation, full of all the things you
want and need, and you know, your life doesn't change
all that much. It's kind of more of the same.
And I think you and I can both fully agree
(16:20):
when you're a woman, that's not the answer. When you're
a man and you just made however many years of
however many millions, yeah, probably like right, you can probably
start getting in your investment era. But as a female athlete,
we just literally don't live that life.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
So I agree wholeheartedly. I think that like looking at
my and your specific situation. We are fortunate because we're
in a situation where, like I don't have pressure to
find something else, right, I'm kind of just taking time
and whatever. So for me, it's not so much like
the job or the finance or like that aspect, because
(16:58):
I don't like we're fine.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
We don't. I don't feel that right now.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Right for me, The hardest part is like just the loneliness.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
I guess, like you.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Go from being around twenty five people every single day,
eating the same having the same habits, like checking in
group chats, you know what I mean, Like it's just
constant and you have that for I had that for
thirty years. I was part of a team for thirty years.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
You're old.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Yeah, sure, but then it's just gone, right, Like that's hard.
You're done playing, and like we're still friends with those people.
I still talk to my teammates, like we still hang out,
et cetera. But it's not the same because a lot
of my friends and teammates are still playing, and or
the ones that aren't are doing something else. It's just
been a very weird adjustment to not having those people,
(17:45):
still having that community but having it in a different
way and trying to now find how I fit into
that evolving community, because nothing prepares you for it. There
are no resources, there are no follow ups, there are
no like exit interviews into life. And I was utterly unprepared.
I thought I was like dialed, ready to go, and
I'm so excited to you know, relax and go on
(18:07):
this world tour and have all this time. And now
I'm like, oh my god, what am I gonna do
with all this fucking time? The freedom is almost crippling.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
I do know what you meet when you're in a
team sport, You know, the second whatever it's you walk
on the pitch, you step on the ice, you get
on the court, it's war, right like there is true
deep in your soul, like I'm ready to beat somebody
up for you. And in hockey, it's a very aggressive sport,
like it is very intense, like you're yelling at the
other team, at yourself, at your teammates, at the refs,
(18:36):
like like there's just so much intensity in that moment.
And then you meet for coffee, and the meat for
coffee never feels the same as lacing your skates, right like,
And so that's definitely a hard thing. But I will
say I was playing back, you know, ten years ago now,
when we were making not enough to live and I
had a job, and my job was in sales and
(18:59):
on a sales team. I think there's a lot of
crossover success where you say, this is what it feels
like to be on a team, and then this is
what it feels like to be a salesperson on a
team of sellers. So I had this like competitive edge, Madison.
You told me today my team won another challenge, and
you said, why are you doing that? Like why is
everything gamified? And that's the athlete in me where I
want to win constantly and I want to constantly have
(19:21):
a game ahead of me. And in my world it's numbers, right,
like it's selling things, it's numbers. But I had that
and sure I was the head of the PA, like
I had other hockey things, but I always had that
team right, like I always had that place that I
could still win, had people around me to insulate, had
the team's chat where I could message folks back and forth,
like I still had that go to battle team. You
(19:42):
don't have that same thing yet, well.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
And I think too, like my transition right has looked
very different. And I knew that going into it, right,
we knew that when I retired that I was going
to take as much time as I needed to take
to find myself and find what's next. And I think
that that's a part of the equation that is a
little different in my circumstances, Like most players don't go
from playing on the same team for nine years, so
then basically starting over and then one year later being like,
(20:08):
all right, like what's next. And so in my mind, right,
I'd played for the Riveters in my head, and in
my mind I was preparing at the end of my
career with if you look at all the decisions that
were being made in the way I was operating, there
were players coming in that I was handing things over to,
and then that just was gone. And so like my
backup plan was, Okay, when I'm done playing, I'm going
(20:30):
to get involved in the business operations of hockey, whether
that's at a league or a team level. And that's
you know, because of the change in landscape and environment,
and because I'm not doing that now, I'm obviously not
working with or involved in any way with the PWHL.
Like my brain had to change, and I had to
like remove myself entirely and figure out, Okay, what do
(20:50):
I want to do.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
And I think you and I have talked about this, Like.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
In the beginning, I had no idea because I'm like, well,
this was my plan, and like I felt like I
wanted nothing to do with hockey. Like remember we went
to the Sirens season opener. I went because it was
the right thing to do and because I love the team,
I love the girls, but like mentally and emotionally, I
felt like I loved hockey so much and in the end,
it maybe didn't love me back, and so I just
(21:15):
wanted nothing to do with it. And then it took
some of these opportunities with the NHL and networking with
a lot of our friends and folks from the WNBA
in New York City, Like, there are other things that
you can do, there are other avenues forward, and like
I've been fortunate to have the time to figure that out,
but it's been really hard. It's like all of a sudden,
the floor is completely ripped out from beneath your feet
(21:36):
and you're free falling, hoping that someone catches you, or
you learn to fly in mid air and that's been
really hard.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
See it's so funny because like I empathize with your position,
I don't understand it right because it wasn't mine. But
where I feel the most synergy is my whole life.
I trained my body to perform excellently, and right after
I retired, we kind of like made this pack where
I'd be the birthing mom. And it was actually over
(22:03):
our first date where you were like very clear that
maternity style was not going to work for you. You
were like, no, no, You're going to make the babies.
And then statistically speaking, it just makes more sense. I'm
dramatically more average at hockey. But I joke, I had
this huge challenge where I tried to like rationalize going
(22:24):
from five foot five a buck thirty of solid muscle
to five 't five one hundred and eighty six pounds
at my max with Waylan.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Oh, big mama, it was a big girl. You were
a big mama. You're so cute. You were so cute.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
But then I got pregnant with Harlan pretty quickly, like
two years. I had a miscarriage and then I got pregnant,
and like that's the other thing, is like the miscarriage
kind of quote quote failure feeling, and I've never had
that before. And then I go through these berths and
I'm looking at myself in the mirror like I used
to be an athlete, and I had to remind myself
(23:02):
that things change and I don't have to be this
look of an athlete to still have an athletic mindset,
to still have an athletic like pursuit of excellence and
kind of like changed my perspective on what being an
athlete and then what that looks like. So I do
understand how hard it is to kind of like mind
(23:22):
shift and remind yourself like, yeah, you can be an athlete,
and you can be somebody who's gained fifty pounds like
that's okay, and you'll come back and there are reasons
for all the things. But I just was like, I
remember that moment looking at myself and being like, God
does not look like me.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Well, And also, I think the hard part, like we
say it all the time, I am so much more
than blank. I'm more than a basketball player, I'm more
than a hockey player. I'm more than an athlete. Right,
But like the irony and the cliche in that is
that we we preach that to athletes, and you know,
we practice it and it becomes our own mantra as
we go through our careers and sports psych and whatever.
(24:00):
But then you stop being an athlete, and it's like.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
Oh, you don't play anymore. Oh don't you know what
I mean?
Speaker 4 (24:05):
And it's just a weird thing, like like I hate,
which is a word I don't like to use, but
I hate the question what are you going to do next?
Speaker 5 (24:14):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
We don't ever allow people. It's just like, what's next,
what's next? What's next? There was actually a.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Random old person. I love old people. We've already talked
about it, let's move on.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
But there was a random old person who I saw
some restaurant bar down here, was sitting at the counter
and we're talking and then they're like, well, what do
you do? I was like, I just retired. I played
professional hockey. Now I'm kind of figuring out what I
want to do next. Da da da, And he was like,
didn't even phase him the professional hockey thing, nothing. He
just goes, Wow, retired at your age, Huh, that must
(24:45):
be incredibly difficult. And I wanted to give the man
a damn hug. Because I was like, yeah, yes, like this,
it really is like like most people are like, oh wow,
that's great, that's so nice, and it's like, well, no,
I can't actually retire at thirty three, even if I
was a billionaire, like just from a raw human standpoint, right,
and like that's kind of where I'm at now.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
I've taken enough time.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
When we get home, I'm gonna volunteer at a gym,
I'm going to volunteer at the substance Abuse Crisis Center,
like because I still don't know I have a like
back up for a second, I'm very fortunate, I have
a lot of opportunities.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
I'm afraid.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I'm afraid that I'm gonna make the wrong choice, right,
and so maybe it's just like I have to jump
in and figure it out. And that was kind of
the advice that Ashland Harris gave me before I retired.
I like I was talking to her and like things
were winding down, and She's like, you're gonna have a
million doors open and you're gonna have one hundred thousand shut,
Like you just have to keep walking through the ones
that are open, and when someone closes one in your.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Face, you turn like you figure it out.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
And I think that I'm finally at that place where
I'm like, Okay, I don't know exactly, but I know
I need to do something, and I miss that that
daily human interaction.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
But that's been really hard.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
We can all get stuck with that analysis paralysis.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
Right. It's like you.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Might think so long and hard vote a decision that
you make that you could have already made three other
decisions really rapidly, right, Like, you could make a decision
and immediately, And I say this to you all the time,
pick something and if you hate it, leave, if you
don't enjoy what you've chosen to do, quit At this
point in your life, you're not.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
That's a very privileged position to take, yes, But you're
you're in a privileged position right now. Yeah me, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
You you you're fortunate in what you have in front
of you. So it's one of those things. And this
is where maybe it scales. But if we take three
months to make a decision to leave a job, if
we had started the new job within a month, you
might find two months down the road that you're already
exceptional at that. But it takes us so long to
make decisions as women. I think men make decisions flagrantly,
(26:45):
absolutely ridiculous. I think the guys that I work with,
I'm like, what did you did you think before you
made a move? And the answer is no. And they'll
probably fail a certain number of times, and they're probably
going to succeed a certain number of times because they've
just taken the risk. And I think the challenge, right that,
the overarching challenge in all of this is as female athletes,
(27:06):
we've gotten zero percent coaching on that We've gotten zero
percent of a transition, you know, into life. We don't
even have programs for current athletes. So who's to say
all of our alumni associations are baked out enough to
even have a resource, let alone even exist in women's hockey.
At least you and I have been saying this for years.
(27:27):
There should be an alumni association that doesn't, no brainer exist.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
It's crazy to me that we don't want to acknowledge
the decades and decades of women. Think about that network
that you're building, Think about the fandom, the support that
you'll that you'll you'll get, like speaking uniquely to hockey, Now,
look at all these look at look at look at
the New York Rangers, for example, they have a phenomenal
alumni network, but they've probably learned over time the hard
(27:55):
way that you need to have these networks for your
players because like just just cutting people loose and patting
them on the back and saying good luck, Like and.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Our Olympic teams don't even have an alumni association.
Speaker 5 (28:08):
It's crazy. It's crazy.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
It doesn't have to have like you don't. It doesn't
have the cost associated with it. Like how cool would
it be if all these all these teams started having
alumni associations that that like hosted pull ups at hockey games,
had barbecues, went to bars and did events and signed autographs.
Like perfect example, when I went to the Sirens game
the other day and they put me up on the.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
JumboTron your truck.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
The line for me to sign an autograph after that
was I like, actually, like looked at you and I
was like, oh my god, I can't believe this.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
People they had your card in their pocket. Yeah, thing
you'd be at a game.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
So the fans want to see these people. The fans
want to continue to have interaction. But if you one
don't feel welcome, two, it doesn't exist, and three have
no opportunity to engage because refer back to be it
doesn't exist, Like it's not going to happen.
Speaker 5 (29:01):
It is no cost, no effort.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Pick an athlete out of a hat and say, hey,
do you want to be the chair of our alumni
association and watch someone run with it?
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeahah, no one would. Because here's the other thing, Rice,
here's the flip side to that conversation. You're going into
a weekend, maybe a takeover but whatever. You're going into
a weekend, and there's a clinic before the game, and
so instead of sending your stars, you send all your
scratch players and only your scratch players. Because there was
a lot of times in the pros where I would
get scratched, and so I would be the one at
(29:31):
those clinics, which, again, no shade. I love growing the game.
I think it's the most important part of what we do.
But imagine you had a couple of your scratch players
which are on the current roster, and is inevitably very
very cool for these kids.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I mean, you're still throw athlete, like, give yourself some respect.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
No, no, no, again, I'm not shading the situation.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
But then you have some like veteran Mega Mega stars
and your alumni association that also rock up to that clinic.
You're showing past, present, feel future in one space and
it is, for lack of a better term, like free
promotion of what is so important. Like Andrew Ferrence is
(30:11):
an absolute beauty. He's hilarious, takes a chirp all day.
He was just at an event with us, showed up
from the Bruins Alumni Association reps the Bruins so hard.
Is such a good dude, stayed at the bar and
played shuffle board with us for a number of hours
and it was just fun. And what he did for
the community around him that could be like yo, ference,
(30:32):
give a fist, bump, hang, like shoot the shit with
Andrew Ferrence is just a cool thing to do if
you're a Bruins fan like I was my whole life.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
That was really cool.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
I think that it's just lost on people, like when
an athlete's career ends, which it inevitably does for everyone,
unless you're like Lebron James, Steph Curry, like Messy Asia Wilson,
Like these athletes are going to be in shrined because
they are mega mega mega right, Yep, that's pretty rare
(31:05):
in I mean Alex Ovechkin, who I don't know, a
lot of goals, but not many assists. But like, you know,
you know what I'm saying though, like your megastars, your
mega megastars are always gonna like feel that connection and
have that. But also, those aren't the people that are
showing up to your alumni events. Those aren't the people
that are you know, doing the community events. Those aren't
(31:25):
the people that are continuing to engage and drive interest
and keep fans interested in what's going on. It's the
other players who have a different passion and a different
purpose because they had a different role in a different
purpose rights as players, like, there's a place.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
For all of it.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Okay, let's talk about another athlete that we've kind of
run in circles with. Stephan Mattow was never the guy, right,
Like he's an unreal hockey player. He was very good though,
do not take it away from him, but he was
never like the guy. Okay, Yeah, he comes back to
the Brooklyn area. He works with underprivileged schools, He does mentorship,
(32:04):
he does coaching, he does speaking all around the world,
comes with the cup, tells his story is a good,
good human beings.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
A foundation that the Stefan Matteau Foundation, right where he
goes into schools and like preaches anti bullying and like
gives the kids someone to talk to, like a mentorship program.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
It's a mentorship program.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
And he goes, Yes, unbelievable and is a hilarious dude,
sits down at a dinner with a bunch of investors
and all these things and says, if I will come,
but you've got to pay the girls. You've got to come,
and you've got to pay the girls. If I'm coming
to the event, you're paying the same fee to me
as you do to these girls. And they're coming as well.
And like that's the thing that we don't recognize is
(32:46):
that the alumni association doesn't need resources in like such
an insane way. And women's sports, the problem is we
just don't have any resources. The alumni association will live
on its own. Give him a little bit of structure,
tell them the like you know, general plan, use them
and leverage them at your events. Maybe then also provide
(33:06):
them with some of the resources that they're gonna need
to transition sports psych possibly financial advice, possibly you know,
any number of things, but they're gonna do so much
to drive good and they're gonna ask for the investment
from the people that you surround yourself with. They'll be
the second level of support to your org that I
(33:27):
think would dramatically help ease the transition from playing to
not anymore and having that to your point feeling like
hockey doesn't love you anymore, because that's not true. It
just feels very true because there's nothing when you take
the skates off, there is nothing set for you, and
(33:49):
that is a scary, scary thing.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Undoubtedly, I think that most athletes walk away feeling the
same way, like you should walk away. First of all,
a very few percentage of people get to go out
on top, right, Like to be able to win and
be done is amazing. But either way, I think the
sting is the same, like it just slowly creeps in,
like I have a lot of things going on, like
(34:13):
there's good opportunities, but it's that like that feeling like
my heart hurts, you know, like you just it's like
a part of your identity that's missing and you're trying
to replace it with something or learn how to live differently.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
I think the other flip in the switch of like
missing my teammates, missing a common goal, missing the banter,
missing going to war is also a massive shift in
how much time you're able to invest in Madison, because
when I retired, we had no kids. I was making
the kids. So I retired, I was making the kids.
(34:58):
I would make it a kids. I felt like I
had kids because at that time I was the head
of the Players Association. I felt like I had one
hundred and forty four kids. Actually, but I didn't have any.
So if I wanted to turn my phone off and
do something selfish, get a workout in, get a sauna in,
go stretch, go golf. You and I could go to dinner,
go golfing. It didn't matter what I wanted to do.
(35:18):
I had the time. Now you have the end of
a career, the new transition of life, everyone asking you
where you played, how long you played, you know what's
important and influential about your play, like and all of
that is such frustrating questions to then also charting around
with two kids having uneducated conversations all day.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
I love them, but seriously, oh my goodness, they're so smart.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
They're smart for their age. But they're not challenging you mentally.
You're watching Bluie understanding the content.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Sometimes I'm very challenged mentally by them. Yeah, no, I
heear what you're saying. It complicates things in a different
way because like, like even we went on vacation, right
it was like I think most people in that situation,
like it would just be nice to get away and
to relax and whatever, and we had the stress of Okay,
who's going to watch the kids?
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Are the kids gonna be okay?
Speaker 4 (36:11):
The kids They have never been apart from us like that,
because there hasn't really been the opportunity you were just
away from them.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
For almost three weeks.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Also, we've talked about this obviously, but like the adjustment
of me coming back and being fully present, Like it's
just a weird shift and a weird swing. But I
have to say, I think I've said this before. Without
the kids, it was weird because like the kids were
a part of my decision, right, Like, and I think
again it was Ashlyn Harris who said it to us
when we were talking. I found myself at the end
(36:42):
like looking up or like getting back to the locker
room and like couldn't wait to get back to talk
to you guys.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
That's just you can't do that. It's not you.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
You can't survive in that environment, and.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
It's also not safe.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
So it just was it was hard to be away
from them, but also now being with them, like it's
my why every morning, which I think.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Is usually say that you watch the clock until they
go to bed, because I do that sometimes.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
Sometimes like it's six.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
It's my why every morning, And sometimes when I get frustrated,
I'm like.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Nope, Like truly, I don't know what I would do
without the kids.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
It's a different concept as pressure is a privilege because
when you leave sports, like when you're in sports, pressure
as a privilege means something right, like your privilege to
be a pro athlete. It's your privilege to have the
pressure to need to be better. Like that's a different pressure,
so it's a different privilege. But then you go down
the path of like pressure is a privilege, Like it
is our burden to raise good human beings. What a
(37:40):
privilege we have? We have two human beings that depend
on us exclusively. I actually watched this TikTok and I
think I ended up sending it to you. But it's
this group of guys sitting around and the guy's phone's
like blowing up, and he keeps answering the phone, and
his friend looks at him and goes, your wife calls
you all the time, and he goes, right, But what
(38:03):
a privilege it is that when she needs me, she
trusts that, out of everyone in the world, I'm going
to be the one to give her that answer. And
I take that. And then when you call me seven
hundred times, I'm like, what a privilege. No, but I
think that about parenting.
Speaker 5 (38:18):
I call you probably eighty two times a day. Yeah,
I love that. It's awesome. Oh where's this? How do
I do that? I can't figure this out. You're like,
what time do the kids go to bed?
Speaker 6 (38:27):
No?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I love you. You don't do that, thank God. But
it's one of those things where our privilege to raise
them is exclusively ours. And I think that leaving sports
and then heading into the challenge of parenting head on
is a brutal transition. It's so hard, it stinks, but
(38:48):
it's so rewarding that you almost find a pathway through. So,
while we are not interviewing anybody, I always love to
hear the answer of the question from our guests. I
want to ask you and then I'll ask you ask me. Yeah,
we've never talked about it. I mean, like, and it's
not under the lens of parenting, because we've talked about
(39:11):
that a ton. But as you retire from pro sports,
what is the best advice that you have or maybe
like your life lessons you haven't received and you wish
you did in that major transition from playing to not playing,
that you've ever gotten.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
I think my advice, I guess, or like maybe someone
gave this to me, or maybe I read it on
a bumper sticker, but just like, stay true to who
you are, truly, because I was never more confident or
sure of myself than I was when I was in
my element playing hockey, being a leader, working for the community.
And I think that that and that person evolved over time,
(39:53):
and I woke up every morning and I loved the
person that I saw in the mirror when I was
that leader and I was doing those things. And I
think that that I've slowly found that piece again, like
understanding that Okay, you don't need hockey to be these things,
but you do need to continue to be that person
because for me, in the end, like I can't.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
I loved I love hockey.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
I cared about the hockey, but the more important part
to me was like the advocacy piece, right and having
that platform and having the ability to connect with people,
and people continued to need that. And I think that
you know, the most recent game that we went to
where you mentioned the fan that gave me the hockey card,
that was the most shining and true example of that.
When that person handed me the cards and they'd been
(40:33):
holding onto it all season hoping I'd come back to
a game for context.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
It was my player card, which I don't think they
made them for all the players.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
They're slowly rolling out upper Deck is doing player cards
for people, and like so for hockey players it's a
big deal. Like you grew up at Fleck hockey cards
like so, I didn't even know I had my own
card and they handed it to me and were like,
thank you for everything that you do, which I like
took me a second to like for it to click
for me, but it was essentially like thank you for
everything that you stand for and for standing out and
(41:02):
for speaking up and all these things like that for
me was full circle. Okay, it might be one person.
But that is one person who I have truly made
an impact on just by simply remembering who I was
and continuing to be that person. So I think that
even though I don't have the skates, I don't have
the jersey, like, I can still continue to try to
(41:23):
impact those communities and show up for those communities because
at the end of the day, that was the most
important part of anything that I did.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, I think that's great advice. It's hard too, by
the way, when you don't have the armor of like
the jersey, the helmet, the like team supporting you. You know,
we always say in hockey, like the logo on the
front's more important than the name on the back when
you get really down into the weeds, like you've got
to figure out who the person on the back is.
Speaker 5 (41:46):
Though, Yeah, that's not easy.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
I've got a different question for you, all right, all right,
it's very similar. So I obviously am a mom, but
I didn't go through the birthing process. You talked about
the body image and the change and like the identity.
What was the hardest part of your journey as an athlete?
Because I also strongly dislike when people are like I'm
not an athlete anymore. You're always an athlete. Maybe you
don't play that same sport or you're not professionally doing it,
(42:11):
but you can continue to be an athlete.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
And I think that that's important.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
So what was the hardest part of the transition for
you going from professional athlete to athlete post birthing two children?
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Ugh, I know this one. When you're pregnant, everybody in
the world does not matter, man, woman, child, parent, spouse,
it doesn't matter. They comment on your physical form. Oh
you're so cute. Your face is so round, you're getting
so big. Oh my gosh, you don't look pregnant from
the back. Your belly's hanging low, your belly's hanging high.
(42:46):
It's going to be a boy, it's gonna be a girl.
But you have such long hair, like whatever it is,
it's cool. I could go on for forty five more
minutes if we have time. But everybody comments on every
single inch of your body, or your ankleswool and are
your feet bigger? It's everything. Can I touch your belly?
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Yeah? Can?
Speaker 3 (43:03):
I know? The answer is always know for the rest
of my life. But the thing is, you spend so
much time as an athlete, doing the body fat test,
getting in the bod pod, doing the calipers, taking creatine
looking a certain way. But as a pregnant person you
go through this process where everyone talks about your body,
(43:24):
but it doesn't feel good. And I think the hardest,
hardest part was matching those two images up in my head.
When I watched the like Dating but Behind a Wall show,
I feel like that is like what being an athlete
and pregnant is like. You're both talking to the same person,
but you can't match the two things up. That was
for me the hardest thing, and I think the only
(43:45):
way that I really got better quote quote or felt
like I could line those two things up is when
I it's not even that I lost the weight, it's
that I just started being okay with what Anya two
doad zero looked like, Like I was no longer Anya
the pro hockey player. And that's not to say I'm
(44:06):
not an athlete anymore. I am a monster, like I'm
a beast. I go to the gym hard, and if
I didn't, that's she's abused. I'm abused. I'm swoll for
my little, you know, tiny frame, like my muscle is
a one tenth of yours. But I'm okay with what
Anya two doado looks like. I was comparing myself to
(44:26):
Anya two thousand and nine, and I need to compare
myself to Anya tomorrow, right like I'm only in a
race with me, And I think that that is the
hardest thing is that we as women. You know, you're
told your body snaps back, you lose all this weight
when you're breastfeeding you blah blah blah blah blah. Like
that is where the two things finally made sense, is
(44:48):
when I started saying, like, well, how do I compare
to myself yesterday? Am I better? Or am I worse?
Am I closer to my goals or my further away?
And that is the only thing that as women we
can do, especially from the perspective of I was this
and then I'm that. I mean, or you can be
Alice and Felix and you can break world records pre
baby and break world records post baby. But she is
a beast and a monster and not to be taken
(45:10):
lightly with. But like there are women that can do
literally anything. I am best when I compare myself to
myself yesterday and myself to tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
Preach. I love that. I actually really like that.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
I'm doing the best I can, and I think that
that's for you and for me, even though the challenges
are very very different. If we can wake up in
the morning and look at ourselves post being an athlete
or being a pro athlete, we're still always athletes and
just say I'm better than I was yesterday at anything.
It could be chess, it could be reading a book,
(45:43):
it could be pickleball, it could be whatever. If we're
better than we were yesterday at every single stage of life,
I think that's a win. A win's a win.
Speaker 5 (45:51):
Yeah, and hopefully it makes the world a little better.
Let's just all be nice.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
I think we should all scratch everything we just said.
Let's all just be kind. Well, this is a different
kind of conversation. Thank you, pack I'm excited. I think
we should start getting into some solo episodes where we like.
Speaker 5 (46:07):
Every round table at dinner.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
This is what we talk about. In case anyone was
curious what the packers do at dinnertime. It's illuminating. Most
of the time, we just shovel the food in our
mouths and don't speak to each other. Sometimes it sounds
like this.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
It only sounds like this when you eat alone something
like that.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Either way, thank you everyone for listening, and next Tuesday
you'll catch more of the packs on these packs.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Puck, Hello everybody, This is Madison and Anya kind of
from the future. We wanted to take a minute to
acknowledge some recent news. Between the time that we recorded
this episode and when you're hearing it, there have been
rumblings that Trump administration is planning to defund the nine
(46:49):
eight eight Suicide in Crisis Hotline, in particular resources for
LGBT plus youth.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Madison, I just wanted to give a little space because
this is something that affects us both really personally. It's
something that we've both dealt with, and it's a resource
that you know, now more than ever, we need to
see in the world. So we at these packs, Puck.
Our dms are always open, We're always here. While we
don't give medical advice, we do love and support every
single member of our expanding and ever growing community. So
(47:18):
we see you, we love you, We're here for you.
And while they may try to take away what we
need to survive in this incredibly challenging time, they'll never
quiet us.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
We're here and we've committed from day one to being
honest and being transparent. And the most important part of
why we wanted to get this message out today is
so that, in particular, those who feel unseen and unheard
recognize that that's not true and you matter.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
And that's all we have today.
Speaker 5 (47:49):
Thank you for listening.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
I'm Anya Packer and I'm Madison Packer, and this is
These Packs Puck.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
in Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 4 (48:03):
It's hosted by us Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Meronoff
is our awesome senior producer and story editor. We were
mixed and mastered by Mary do. Our executive producers are
Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm a recently retired pro hockey vet, a founding member
of the National Women's Hockey League, a pillar in the PHF,
and an inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
And I'm Anypacker, also a former pro hockey player, also
founding member of the National Women's Hockey League. But today
I'm a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Stan Anya and I met through hockey, then we got married,
and now we're moms to two awesome.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
And on our new podcast, These Packs Puck, we're opening
up about the chaos of our daily lives, between the
juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness
in between.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Hi Maddie, Hello, what's up right now?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
I'm a ceiling fan, true true true.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
USA Hockey's back on top in Worlds, and I have
a hockey hot take and I really want to jump
into it.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Let's do it, hockey hot take.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
We just listen to a friend podcast of ours jocks
and Jill's shout out to them. They're doing all the
best things talking about women's hockey. Talk about the two
thousand and nineteen Women's Worlds, the gold medal game in Finland,
and I have so many.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Thoughts, lots of thoughts.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Yes, So Finland beat Canada to advance to the gold
medal game against the United States in the twenty fifteen
World Championships. Already crazy, yeah, wild, And I never root
against the US, but in this particular situation, we were popped.
Because it's great for hockey, unreal For long story short,
Finland won in a lot of people's minds in the
(01:43):
moment because they scored in a goal was then called back.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You watch the replay over and over and over and over,
and the.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Hockey community was divided because it felt a lot like
Finland got robbed.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Let me give a little context here. So the game
goes into overtime. It's one one Petre Nineman gores a
literally it was empty net, like there's a loose net.
Puck comes out, pops it in. Finland wins. In everyone's mind,
the rink is going ballistic. Everyone's throwing the gloves off.
They're celebrating. They've won Worlds at Espo, their home, their
(02:16):
home ice, it's their home fans.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
They win.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Ten minutes of a goal review, IHF pulls it back
net net it ends up going all the way to
a shootout and USA wins. Whin the shootout is officially
in sudden death.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
USA wins. They go ballistic.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I'm playing at the time, and in my mind, like everybody's,
the IHF pulls some loose rule between the difference of
incidental contact and goali interference and it was a very
razer thin in my opinion, they got it wrong. But
Razor Thin call I agree, and I tweeted, I said
that was goal. That's all I wrote. That was a goal,
(02:58):
that was a period. I didn't at any I didn't
put any contacts behind it. I just wrote that was
a goal. And I decided to just speak my mind
because if I'm going to say it, I'm gonna say
it with my whole chest. I think the best thing
for the game, generally speaking, is for there to be
more parody across women's world's four nations, any tournament but
(03:19):
the Olympics. In the Olympics, I throw on the red,
white and blue. I'm obsessed. I want USA to win.
It's good for the country, it's good for girls hockey
enrollment in the United States, it's good for all the
things Olympics aside I'm rooting for parody. Finland won that game.
I tweeted, that's a goal. Immediately the dms are flooded.
(03:39):
People are tweeting back at me, and you'd think it's
just trolls online. It's literally the national team members tweeting
at me, liking their own tweets, cyberbullying me because, like
I said, I'm going to say with my whole chest,
I'm okay that people don't like me. And at the
end of the day, Finland should have won that game.
(04:00):
I think that's bullet I think they should know that.
People knew that, And in the antithesis, I get cyber
bullied by all the same people that already hate me,
and here we are.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
I think they still don't like me.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
That's all right, you do it, okay, Yeah, Like I'm
alright with that.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I'm okay if I think it's a goal and you
don't think it's a goal. At the end of the day,
we can agree to disagree. It's a sport, it's fandom.
A gold medal was awarded, it was not awarded to
who I thought it should have been, and we can
move on happily. But they make it, Finland makes it
pretty dang close. Again, the game was tight, and so
in the semifinals. Again for context, it was a one
(04:38):
goal game with Canada and Finland thought the puck was
off side.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
They thought Sarah Nurse was off sides.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
She brings a puck into the zone and they call
a challenge because they scored, making it three to one.
So they call a challenge on the on the play,
which means the refs review it and if they're wrong,
the goal would stand and Canada gets a power play.
Heartbreaking pla on the ice is upheld. It was a
dicey challenge. I wouldn't have called the challenge personally, you know,
(05:04):
I would have gotten on my horse and gone after it.
But they had to do it right, Like, it's tough
to come back when Canada starts to get you know, momentum.
So they call the challenge, they lose the challenge, they
go on, they go on the PK, then they score
a PK goal and then I mean within the period
it was like six to one.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Canada just throttled them.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yeah, I mean that was a tough call. I really
like Finland's program. I think that the you know, the
players are incredibly skilled. The Czech team is really really good.
Just hockey in general internationally has elevated so much.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
That was a tough call.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
They must have had an angle that they weren't showing
the replay of, or the coaches were just like, risk
it for the biscuit. But that's an awfully big risk
to take in a game that close. And then you
take like two minutes and fifteen seconds out of that game,
it's a completely different game.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
They got scored, then they got they got the penalty,
then they got scored on, then they got boom boom,
scored on again all.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Of a sudden, it was like five. Like, that's just
selling you.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Two to one versus Canada versus five to one is
a very different hole to climb out of. But kudos
to Finland, right because then they they played in the
bronze medal game the next day and they won.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
And I don't I don't know. I think that both
of those teams are very very good.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I think that Finland is probably a better team overall,
as is evident by the fact that they won, right,
But you look at the check game against the US
that the other semi final, that was a two to
one game that was a great hockey game.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
We're getting it.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
And like they only scored they scored the second goal
I think in the final minutes of the third period.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yeah, it was, it was deep into the game. That's
where like the twenty nineteen thing kills me, because we're
getting close to parody. And there was a period of time,
so let's call it twenty nineteen to twenty twenty four,
before or twenty three right before the PWHL started, there
was a lot of those international team players playing in
the PHF, So they were upskilling and up skilling and
upskilling and better and extending their careers and doing all
(06:56):
these things. And a bunch of them are still playing
in the SDHL right and like that league is starting
to infuse because as the PTERWHL cuts players, they continue
their career over there trying to you know, loop back
into the swing of it. You think of like a
sav Nor Cross or you know, kind of like that
pipeline of really good players that are also infusing that league.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
To get better.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
There's a there's a clear path for parody. The challenge
is and here's where I will and here's where where
I stand on business with my tweet. The challenge is
we can't just accept what the greatest national team players
say as law, and if we can challenge that constantly,
then we are going to continue to inch closer to parody,
(07:37):
to not being afraid to call out things, to ask
for more and better. This is like my pa headside
of my brain. But like, why are we okay with
the answers being the answers? Like let's question every answer,
Like why are all of the three year extended national
team contracts, I mean, I call them national team contracts,
but like the three year starting contracts across the entire league,
(07:59):
none of them went to international national team members. They
are all US and Canada players. And I'm not saying
that those aren't the best choices right now, but as
we look for parody, there are players that are so
freaking good.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
In my opinion, right hockey is not big enough in
the US or state side period, Canada, US, North America.
There's not enough talent here that's willing to either hang
on and or there's not a system in place for
kids to come straight out of college right because you
look at the turnover from last season to this season
I think was like sixty percent in the PWHPA. That's
crazy and that's not right. There were many, many, many,
(08:36):
many many veterans, myself included, could have continued their career.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Britt Howard could should write very different things.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
But you can't tell me that all of these rookies
that have come in are better right now than all
of the veterans that were upended. However, there's nowhere for
them to go. So wouldn't it be great if we
respected the system and we right sided everything and it
balance right. Because also you got to remember, no one's
making the money that everyone thinks that they're making. There's
(09:04):
a few people that are making it, and then there's
a shit ton of players that are making shit money.
I'm gonna say it, and no one else wants to
acknowledge that you're lying.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
That is true. That is the real narrative of women talking.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Right now, you have a few players making a ton
and a lot of players just barely scraping by. So
you either a cannot continue to play because you can't
afford it, or b we gotta like declog the system
because all of the players in Europe who will not
come here because they don't get paid enough, and so
they're the SDHL is a great league, a ton of
(09:36):
respect for. But wouldn't it be great if we took
our younger players, the majority of whom, in my opinion,
the majority of whom coming out of college are not
ready to play pro hockey immediately partner with the SDHL.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah, they's see. There has to be an affiliation program.
We're not there yet. We're getting close, I mean, but you.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Got to loosen up some of that money because the
best international players. If there's a handful here, but you're
missing a whole hell of a lot.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Yeah, we want parody. We want parity.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I want a world that is every game an absolute
like nail bitter, insane.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I want I want.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Worlds to feel like like World Juniors. That's what I want.
What I want is what we just saw in the
NHL so successfully for Nations Cup. I want it to
be every game that good. I don't want to watch
a pump over eight to one win in Worlds anymore.
I don't want to see these stats. Give me get
away from those Give me the twenty nineteen Gold medal game.
(10:36):
Whether I agree or disagree, that game was insane. On
the edge of your seat, you're gutting crying for Finland.
That's what I want, So give me more of that,
and let's be okay to call that out like, I'm
alright with that. So these are my hockey hot takes.
I feel passionately about them. I hate getting cyberbullied, but
I think I hate getting I hate getting cybral. People
(10:58):
hate to see me coming though, because my onions may
not always be correct, but I am certain of them.
So catch me on any platform, just speaking how I feel.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
And you know, at some point I.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Might get a little bullied, little bully bully, but that's okay.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
I'm alright with that.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I stand on my tweet.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
That was a goal.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I'll stop diving on that. I will stop reminiscing about
my twenty nineteen harassment, and I will I'll kick it
over to you on where you're at, what the check
in is feeling, like, what your vibes are.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
Where you at, girl.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
We are still in Southwest Florida, so I'm still buzzing
pretty high.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
I'm at like an eighty nine. You want to elaborate
or you just generally happy.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It's sunny. I got to work out today. I'm going
to the pool after this.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
My friends are coming down here for our annual girls' weekend.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I live for it. It's my favorite weekend of the year.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Girl's Weekend. Yes, we're gonna shred it up.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
It's like girls' weekend where we don't behave like girls
in the slightest like our girls. Yeah, our girl's weekend
is the boy's night. I last night, the air conditioning
was turning on and off, and Harlan was afraid. She
said it was a monster, and she cried a few times.
(12:16):
You got up a few times. And then the kids
sleep on these kid toddler bed mattress things that are
literally like sleeping on the floor.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
They're so hard, and you cap me in.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You said, hey, you go lay with her, so we swapped.
I went and slept with the kid. She has a
cough and snug and boogies, and I slept with Harlan.
She was abusive and sleeps on top of me and
had a little coffee chest, and I woke up with
a sore throat. So I'm at a solid forty two.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Well that needed to come up to at least in
eighty five. Otherwise you're uninvited from.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Girls again forty three.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
But you're still paying for it, but you're in a minute,
your your credit cards and but you are out.
Speaker 5 (13:03):
You're out.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, sponsored by American Express on his Express.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
We're uh, we're going through it a little bit with Harlan.
Anyone that's anyone that any any moms out there that
have a challenging curly top at home, throw some advice
in our comment section.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
We have a two year old who two and a half,
who will.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Not go to bed, very opiniated, very smart, So like
you hit her with something and she's like, no, that
is not right, Like it's.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
His wild We should This is what I learned.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So there was a TikTok that someone was like, you're
not a bad parent, you just don't lie to your
kids enough. And then we've decided to just start lying
to our kids. Madison goes, you know pre Easter was like, oh, guys,
the Easter bunny was hopping around, but he did hear
you guys yell at me.
Speaker 6 (13:52):
I don't think he's gonna come now, Like like, we've
got to just start lying to these kids more, because
I think the more we make it not our decision,
because Harlan's really good, Like you'd be like, oh, we're
not doing this because mommy said blank and she's like,
oh yeah, mommy, and that's when she's ready to brawl.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So is there any if there are any kids listening
right now, stop listening.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yeah, turn it off, because I did come up with
a good hack that I thought was helpful. At least,
I have a contact in my phone who happens to
be Santa and the Easter Bunny and the Birthday Fairy
and the Tooth Fairy all bundled up into one. And
(14:34):
so when we need a little extra motivation to make
sure that those people are going to stop by our house,
we give the old Easter Bunny a call. Say I
heard you were calling problems.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
We call it that the hop right over that house.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You you think that we're just raising smart kids that
are good and kind, we're calling Santa in March. We're
not over Yeah, we're not over the lying. We're not
We're the calling Santa. So all that to say, it's
a wild time over here. I need to start picking
up or I'm going to be kicked out of the
(15:09):
Girl's weekend.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
So I'm working on that.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
In the interest of that, Maddie, we are just going
to continue the conversation it's you and me today, baby,
So let's give everybody a little break, give the ears
a little break, and then we'll come back shortly.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I'm excited because this episode will be a little bit different, Maddie.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
We're going to talk about all the things currently happening
in our life, which isn't really an interview, but is
more of a conversation about what post hockey career looked
like for both of us and basically, like, gut check,
what the hell is going on in this house?
Speaker 5 (15:57):
I'm not gonna cry.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, that's gonna be the first time for that for sure.
I think it's interesting, like everybody would assume that retirement
is full of relaxation, full of all the things you
want and need, and you know, your life doesn't change
all that much. It's kind of more of the same.
And I think you and I can both fully agree
(16:20):
when you're a woman, that's not the answer. When you're
a man and you just made however many years of
however many millions, yeah, probably like right, you can probably
start getting in your investment era. But as a female athlete,
we just literally don't live that life.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
So I agree wholeheartedly. I think that like looking at
my and your specific situation. We are fortunate because we're
in a situation where, like I don't have pressure to
find something else, right, I'm kind of just taking time
and whatever. So for me, it's not so much like
the job or the finance or like that aspect, because
(16:58):
I don't like we're fine.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
We don't. I don't feel that right now.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Right for me, The hardest part is like just the loneliness.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
I guess, like you.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Go from being around twenty five people every single day,
eating the same having the same habits, like checking in
group chats, you know what I mean, Like it's just
constant and you have that for I had that for
thirty years. I was part of a team for thirty years.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
You're old.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Yeah, sure, but then it's just gone, right, Like that's hard.
You're done playing, and like we're still friends with those people.
I still talk to my teammates, like we still hang out,
et cetera. But it's not the same because a lot
of my friends and teammates are still playing, and or
the ones that aren't are doing something else. It's just
been a very weird adjustment to not having those people,
(17:45):
still having that community but having it in a different
way and trying to now find how I fit into
that evolving community, because nothing prepares you for it. There
are no resources, there are no follow ups, there are
no like exit interviews into life. And I was utterly unprepared.
I thought I was like dialed, ready to go, and
I'm so excited to you know, relax and go on
(18:07):
this world tour and have all this time. And now
I'm like, oh my god, what am I gonna do
with all this fucking time? The freedom is almost crippling.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
I do know what you meet when you're in a
team sport, You know, the second whatever it's you walk
on the pitch, you step on the ice, you get
on the court, it's war, right like there is true
deep in your soul, like I'm ready to beat somebody
up for you. And in hockey, it's a very aggressive sport,
like it is very intense, like you're yelling at the
other team, at yourself, at your teammates, at the refs,
(18:36):
like like there's just so much intensity in that moment.
And then you meet for coffee, and the meat for
coffee never feels the same as lacing your skates, right like,
And so that's definitely a hard thing. But I will
say I was playing back, you know, ten years ago now,
when we were making not enough to live and I
had a job, and my job was in sales and
(18:59):
on a sales team. I think there's a lot of
crossover success where you say, this is what it feels
like to be on a team, and then this is
what it feels like to be a salesperson on a
team of sellers. So I had this like competitive edge, Madison.
You told me today my team won another challenge, and
you said, why are you doing that? Like why is
everything gamified? And that's the athlete in me where I
want to win constantly and I want to constantly have
(19:21):
a game ahead of me. And in my world it's numbers, right,
like it's selling things, it's numbers. But I had that
and sure I was the head of the PA, like
I had other hockey things, but I always had that
team right, like I always had that place that I
could still win, had people around me to insulate, had
the team's chat where I could message folks back and forth,
like I still had that go to battle team. You
(19:42):
don't have that same thing yet, well.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
And I think too, like my transition right has looked
very different. And I knew that going into it, right,
we knew that when I retired that I was going
to take as much time as I needed to take
to find myself and find what's next. And I think
that that's a part of the equation that is a
little different in my circumstances, Like most players don't go
from playing on the same team for nine years, so
then basically starting over and then one year later being like,
(20:08):
all right, like what's next. And so in my mind, right,
I'd played for the Riveters in my head, and in
my mind I was preparing at the end of my
career with if you look at all the decisions that
were being made in the way I was operating, there
were players coming in that I was handing things over to,
and then that just was gone. And so like my
backup plan was, Okay, when I'm done playing, I'm going
(20:30):
to get involved in the business operations of hockey, whether
that's at a league or a team level. And that's
you know, because of the change in landscape and environment,
and because I'm not doing that now, I'm obviously not
working with or involved in any way with the PWHL.
Like my brain had to change, and I had to
like remove myself entirely and figure out, Okay, what do
(20:50):
I want to do.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
And I think you and I have talked about this, Like.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
In the beginning, I had no idea because I'm like, well,
this was my plan, and like I felt like I
wanted nothing to do with hockey. Like remember we went
to the Sirens season opener. I went because it was
the right thing to do and because I love the team,
I love the girls, but like mentally and emotionally, I
felt like I loved hockey so much and in the end,
it maybe didn't love me back, and so I just
(21:15):
wanted nothing to do with it. And then it took
some of these opportunities with the NHL and networking with
a lot of our friends and folks from the WNBA
in New York City, Like, there are other things that
you can do, there are other avenues forward, and like
I've been fortunate to have the time to figure that out,
but it's been really hard. It's like all of a sudden,
the floor is completely ripped out from beneath your feet
(21:36):
and you're free falling, hoping that someone catches you, or
you learn to fly in mid air and that's been
really hard.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
See it's so funny because like I empathize with your position,
I don't understand it right because it wasn't mine. But
where I feel the most synergy is my whole life.
I trained my body to perform excellently, and right after
I retired, we kind of like made this pack where
I'd be the birthing mom. And it was actually over
(22:03):
our first date where you were like very clear that
maternity style was not going to work for you. You
were like, no, no, You're going to make the babies.
And then statistically speaking, it just makes more sense. I'm
dramatically more average at hockey. But I joke, I had
this huge challenge where I tried to like rationalize going
(22:24):
from five foot five a buck thirty of solid muscle
to five 't five one hundred and eighty six pounds
at my max with Waylan.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Oh, big mama, it was a big girl. You were
a big mama. You're so cute. You were so cute.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
But then I got pregnant with Harlan pretty quickly, like
two years. I had a miscarriage and then I got pregnant,
and like that's the other thing, is like the miscarriage
kind of quote quote failure feeling, and I've never had
that before. And then I go through these berths and
I'm looking at myself in the mirror like I used
to be an athlete, and I had to remind myself
(23:02):
that things change and I don't have to be this
look of an athlete to still have an athletic mindset,
to still have an athletic like pursuit of excellence and
kind of like changed my perspective on what being an
athlete and then what that looks like. So I do
understand how hard it is to kind of like mind
(23:22):
shift and remind yourself like, yeah, you can be an athlete,
and you can be somebody who's gained fifty pounds like
that's okay, and you'll come back and there are reasons
for all the things. But I just was like, I
remember that moment looking at myself and being like, God
does not look like me.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Well, And also, I think the hard part, like we
say it all the time, I am so much more
than blank. I'm more than a basketball player, I'm more
than a hockey player. I'm more than an athlete. Right,
But like the irony and the cliche in that is
that we we preach that to athletes, and you know,
we practice it and it becomes our own mantra as
we go through our careers and sports psych and whatever.
(24:00):
But then you stop being an athlete, and it's like.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
Oh, you don't play anymore. Oh don't you know what
I mean?
Speaker 4 (24:05):
And it's just a weird thing, like like I hate,
which is a word I don't like to use, but
I hate the question what are you going to do next?
Speaker 5 (24:14):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
We don't ever allow people. It's just like, what's next,
what's next? What's next? There was actually a.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Random old person. I love old people. We've already talked
about it, let's move on.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
But there was a random old person who I saw
some restaurant bar down here, was sitting at the counter
and we're talking and then they're like, well, what do
you do? I was like, I just retired. I played
professional hockey. Now I'm kind of figuring out what I
want to do next. Da da da, And he was like,
didn't even phase him the professional hockey thing, nothing. He
just goes, Wow, retired at your age, Huh, that must
(24:45):
be incredibly difficult. And I wanted to give the man
a damn hug. Because I was like, yeah, yes, like this,
it really is like like most people are like, oh wow,
that's great, that's so nice, and it's like, well, no,
I can't actually retire at thirty three, even if I
was a billionaire, like just from a raw human standpoint, right,
and like that's kind of where I'm at now.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
I've taken enough time.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
When we get home, I'm gonna volunteer at a gym,
I'm going to volunteer at the substance Abuse Crisis Center,
like because I still don't know I have a like
back up for a second, I'm very fortunate, I have
a lot of opportunities.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
I'm afraid.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I'm afraid that I'm gonna make the wrong choice, right,
and so maybe it's just like I have to jump
in and figure it out. And that was kind of
the advice that Ashland Harris gave me before I retired.
I like I was talking to her and like things
were winding down, and She's like, you're gonna have a
million doors open and you're gonna have one hundred thousand shut,
Like you just have to keep walking through the ones
that are open, and when someone closes one in your.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Face, you turn like you figure it out.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
And I think that I'm finally at that place where
I'm like, Okay, I don't know exactly, but I know
I need to do something, and I miss that that
daily human interaction.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
But that's been really hard.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
We can all get stuck with that analysis paralysis.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
Right. It's like you.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Might think so long and hard vote a decision that
you make that you could have already made three other
decisions really rapidly, right, Like, you could make a decision
and immediately, And I say this to you all the time,
pick something and if you hate it, leave, if you
don't enjoy what you've chosen to do, quit At this
point in your life, you're not.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
That's a very privileged position to take, yes, But you're
you're in a privileged position right now. Yeah me, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
You you you're fortunate in what you have in front
of you. So it's one of those things. And this
is where maybe it scales. But if we take three
months to make a decision to leave a job, if
we had started the new job within a month, you
might find two months down the road that you're already
exceptional at that. But it takes us so long to
make decisions as women. I think men make decisions flagrantly,
(26:45):
absolutely ridiculous. I think the guys that I work with,
I'm like, what did you did you think before you
made a move? And the answer is no. And they'll
probably fail a certain number of times, and they're probably
going to succeed a certain number of times because they've
just taken the risk. And I think the challenge, right that,
the overarching challenge in all of this is as female athletes,
(27:06):
we've gotten zero percent coaching on that We've gotten zero
percent of a transition, you know, into life. We don't
even have programs for current athletes. So who's to say
all of our alumni associations are baked out enough to
even have a resource, let alone even exist in women's hockey.
At least you and I have been saying this for years.
(27:27):
There should be an alumni association that doesn't, no brainer exist.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
It's crazy to me that we don't want to acknowledge
the decades and decades of women. Think about that network
that you're building, Think about the fandom, the support that
you'll that you'll you'll get, like speaking uniquely to hockey, Now,
look at all these look at look at look at
the New York Rangers, for example, they have a phenomenal
alumni network, but they've probably learned over time the hard
(27:55):
way that you need to have these networks for your
players because like just just cutting people loose and patting
them on the back and saying good luck, Like and.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Our Olympic teams don't even have an alumni association.
Speaker 5 (28:08):
It's crazy. It's crazy.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
It doesn't have to have like you don't. It doesn't
have the cost associated with it. Like how cool would
it be if all these all these teams started having
alumni associations that that like hosted pull ups at hockey games,
had barbecues, went to bars and did events and signed autographs.
Like perfect example, when I went to the Sirens game
the other day and they put me up on the.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
JumboTron your truck.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
The line for me to sign an autograph after that
was I like, actually, like looked at you and I
was like, oh my god, I can't believe this.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
People they had your card in their pocket. Yeah, thing
you'd be at a game.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
So the fans want to see these people. The fans
want to continue to have interaction. But if you one
don't feel welcome, two, it doesn't exist, and three have
no opportunity to engage because refer back to be it
doesn't exist, Like it's not going to happen.
Speaker 5 (29:01):
It is no cost, no effort.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Pick an athlete out of a hat and say, hey,
do you want to be the chair of our alumni
association and watch someone run with it?
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeahah, no one would. Because here's the other thing, Rice,
here's the flip side to that conversation. You're going into
a weekend, maybe a takeover but whatever. You're going into
a weekend, and there's a clinic before the game, and
so instead of sending your stars, you send all your
scratch players and only your scratch players. Because there was
a lot of times in the pros where I would
get scratched, and so I would be the one at
(29:31):
those clinics, which, again, no shade. I love growing the game.
I think it's the most important part of what we do.
But imagine you had a couple of your scratch players
which are on the current roster, and is inevitably very
very cool for these kids.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I mean, you're still throw athlete, like, give yourself some respect.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
No, no, no, again, I'm not shading the situation.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
But then you have some like veteran Mega Mega stars
and your alumni association that also rock up to that clinic.
You're showing past, present, feel future in one space and
it is, for lack of a better term, like free
promotion of what is so important. Like Andrew Ferrence is
(30:11):
an absolute beauty. He's hilarious, takes a chirp all day.
He was just at an event with us, showed up
from the Bruins Alumni Association reps the Bruins so hard.
Is such a good dude, stayed at the bar and
played shuffle board with us for a number of hours
and it was just fun. And what he did for
the community around him that could be like yo, ference,
(30:32):
give a fist, bump, hang, like shoot the shit with
Andrew Ferrence is just a cool thing to do if
you're a Bruins fan like I was my whole life.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
That was really cool.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
I think that it's just lost on people, like when
an athlete's career ends, which it inevitably does for everyone,
unless you're like Lebron James, Steph Curry, like Messy Asia Wilson,
Like these athletes are going to be in shrined because
they are mega mega mega right, Yep, that's pretty rare
(31:05):
in I mean Alex Ovechkin, who I don't know, a
lot of goals, but not many assists. But like, you know,
you know what I'm saying though, like your megastars, your
mega megastars are always gonna like feel that connection and
have that. But also, those aren't the people that are
showing up to your alumni events. Those aren't the people
that are you know, doing the community events. Those aren't
(31:25):
the people that are continuing to engage and drive interest
and keep fans interested in what's going on. It's the
other players who have a different passion and a different
purpose because they had a different role in a different
purpose rights as players, like, there's a place.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
For all of it.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Okay, let's talk about another athlete that we've kind of
run in circles with. Stephan Mattow was never the guy, right,
Like he's an unreal hockey player. He was very good though,
do not take it away from him, but he was
never like the guy. Okay, Yeah, he comes back to
the Brooklyn area. He works with underprivileged schools, He does mentorship,
(32:04):
he does coaching, he does speaking all around the world,
comes with the cup, tells his story is a good,
good human beings.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
A foundation that the Stefan Matteau Foundation, right where he
goes into schools and like preaches anti bullying and like
gives the kids someone to talk to, like a mentorship program.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
It's a mentorship program.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
And he goes, Yes, unbelievable and is a hilarious dude,
sits down at a dinner with a bunch of investors
and all these things and says, if I will come,
but you've got to pay the girls. You've got to come,
and you've got to pay the girls. If I'm coming
to the event, you're paying the same fee to me
as you do to these girls. And they're coming as well.
And like that's the thing that we don't recognize is
(32:46):
that the alumni association doesn't need resources in like such
an insane way. And women's sports, the problem is we
just don't have any resources. The alumni association will live
on its own. Give him a little bit of structure,
tell them the like you know, general plan, use them
and leverage them at your events. Maybe then also provide
(33:06):
them with some of the resources that they're gonna need
to transition sports psych possibly financial advice, possibly you know,
any number of things, but they're gonna do so much
to drive good and they're gonna ask for the investment
from the people that you surround yourself with. They'll be
the second level of support to your org that I
(33:27):
think would dramatically help ease the transition from playing to
not anymore and having that to your point feeling like
hockey doesn't love you anymore, because that's not true. It
just feels very true because there's nothing when you take
the skates off, there is nothing set for you, and
(33:49):
that is a scary, scary thing.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Undoubtedly, I think that most athletes walk away feeling the
same way, like you should walk away. First of all,
a very few percentage of people get to go out
on top, right, Like to be able to win and
be done is amazing. But either way, I think the
sting is the same, like it just slowly creeps in,
like I have a lot of things going on, like
(34:13):
there's good opportunities, but it's that like that feeling like
my heart hurts, you know, like you just it's like
a part of your identity that's missing and you're trying
to replace it with something or learn how to live differently.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
I think the other flip in the switch of like
missing my teammates, missing a common goal, missing the banter,
missing going to war is also a massive shift in
how much time you're able to invest in Madison, because
when I retired, we had no kids. I was making
the kids. So I retired, I was making the kids.
(34:58):
I would make it a kids. I felt like I
had kids because at that time I was the head
of the Players Association. I felt like I had one
hundred and forty four kids. Actually, but I didn't have any.
So if I wanted to turn my phone off and
do something selfish, get a workout in, get a sauna in,
go stretch, go golf. You and I could go to dinner,
go golfing. It didn't matter what I wanted to do.
(35:18):
I had the time. Now you have the end of
a career, the new transition of life, everyone asking you
where you played, how long you played, you know what's
important and influential about your play, like and all of
that is such frustrating questions to then also charting around
with two kids having uneducated conversations all day.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
I love them, but seriously, oh my goodness, they're so smart.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
They're smart for their age. But they're not challenging you mentally.
You're watching Bluie understanding the content.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Sometimes I'm very challenged mentally by them. Yeah, no, I
heear what you're saying. It complicates things in a different
way because like, like even we went on vacation, right
it was like I think most people in that situation,
like it would just be nice to get away and
to relax and whatever, and we had the stress of Okay,
who's going to watch the kids?
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Are the kids gonna be okay?
Speaker 4 (36:11):
The kids They have never been apart from us like that,
because there hasn't really been the opportunity you were just
away from them.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
For almost three weeks.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Also, we've talked about this obviously, but like the adjustment
of me coming back and being fully present, Like it's
just a weird shift and a weird swing. But I
have to say, I think I've said this before. Without
the kids, it was weird because like the kids were
a part of my decision, right, Like, and I think
again it was Ashlyn Harris who said it to us
when we were talking. I found myself at the end
(36:42):
like looking up or like getting back to the locker
room and like couldn't wait to get back to talk
to you guys.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
That's just you can't do that. It's not you.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
You can't survive in that environment, and.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
It's also not safe.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
So it just was it was hard to be away
from them, but also now being with them, like it's
my why every morning, which I think.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Is usually say that you watch the clock until they
go to bed, because I do that sometimes.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
Sometimes like it's six.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
It's my why every morning, And sometimes when I get frustrated,
I'm like.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Nope, Like truly, I don't know what I would do
without the kids.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
It's a different concept as pressure is a privilege because
when you leave sports, like when you're in sports, pressure
as a privilege means something right, like your privilege to
be a pro athlete. It's your privilege to have the
pressure to need to be better. Like that's a different pressure,
so it's a different privilege. But then you go down
the path of like pressure is a privilege, Like it
is our burden to raise good human beings. What a
(37:40):
privilege we have? We have two human beings that depend
on us exclusively. I actually watched this TikTok and I
think I ended up sending it to you. But it's
this group of guys sitting around and the guy's phone's
like blowing up, and he keeps answering the phone, and
his friend looks at him and goes, your wife calls
you all the time, and he goes, right, But what
(38:03):
a privilege it is that when she needs me, she
trusts that, out of everyone in the world, I'm going
to be the one to give her that answer. And
I take that. And then when you call me seven
hundred times, I'm like, what a privilege. No, but I
think that about parenting.
Speaker 5 (38:18):
I call you probably eighty two times a day. Yeah,
I love that. It's awesome. Oh where's this? How do
I do that? I can't figure this out. You're like,
what time do the kids go to bed?
Speaker 6 (38:27):
No?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I love you. You don't do that, thank God. But
it's one of those things where our privilege to raise
them is exclusively ours. And I think that leaving sports
and then heading into the challenge of parenting head on
is a brutal transition. It's so hard, it stinks, but
(38:48):
it's so rewarding that you almost find a pathway through. So,
while we are not interviewing anybody, I always love to
hear the answer of the question from our guests. I
want to ask you and then I'll ask you ask me. Yeah,
we've never talked about it. I mean, like, and it's
not under the lens of parenting, because we've talked about
(39:11):
that a ton. But as you retire from pro sports,
what is the best advice that you have or maybe
like your life lessons you haven't received and you wish
you did in that major transition from playing to not playing,
that you've ever gotten.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
I think my advice, I guess, or like maybe someone
gave this to me, or maybe I read it on
a bumper sticker, but just like, stay true to who
you are, truly, because I was never more confident or
sure of myself than I was when I was in
my element playing hockey, being a leader, working for the community.
And I think that that and that person evolved over time,
(39:53):
and I woke up every morning and I loved the
person that I saw in the mirror when I was
that leader and I was doing those things. And I
think that that I've slowly found that piece again, like
understanding that Okay, you don't need hockey to be these things,
but you do need to continue to be that person
because for me, in the end, like I can't.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
I loved I love hockey.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
I cared about the hockey, but the more important part
to me was like the advocacy piece, right and having
that platform and having the ability to connect with people,
and people continued to need that. And I think that
you know, the most recent game that we went to
where you mentioned the fan that gave me the hockey card,
that was the most shining and true example of that.
When that person handed me the cards and they'd been
(40:33):
holding onto it all season hoping I'd come back to
a game for context.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
It was my player card, which I don't think they
made them for all the players.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
They're slowly rolling out upper Deck is doing player cards
for people, and like so for hockey players it's a
big deal. Like you grew up at Fleck hockey cards
like so, I didn't even know I had my own
card and they handed it to me and were like,
thank you for everything that you do, which I like
took me a second to like for it to click
for me, but it was essentially like thank you for
everything that you stand for and for standing out and
(41:02):
for speaking up and all these things like that for
me was full circle. Okay, it might be one person.
But that is one person who I have truly made
an impact on just by simply remembering who I was
and continuing to be that person. So I think that
even though I don't have the skates, I don't have
the jersey, like, I can still continue to try to
(41:23):
impact those communities and show up for those communities because
at the end of the day, that was the most
important part of anything that I did.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, I think that's great advice. It's hard too, by
the way, when you don't have the armor of like
the jersey, the helmet, the like team supporting you. You know,
we always say in hockey, like the logo on the
front's more important than the name on the back when
you get really down into the weeds, like you've got
to figure out who the person on the back is.
Speaker 5 (41:46):
Though, Yeah, that's not easy.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
I've got a different question for you, all right, all right,
it's very similar. So I obviously am a mom, but
I didn't go through the birthing process. You talked about
the body image and the change and like the identity.
What was the hardest part of your journey as an athlete?
Because I also strongly dislike when people are like I'm
not an athlete anymore. You're always an athlete. Maybe you
don't play that same sport or you're not professionally doing it,
(42:11):
but you can continue to be an athlete.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
And I think that that's important.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
So what was the hardest part of the transition for
you going from professional athlete to athlete post birthing two children?
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Ugh, I know this one. When you're pregnant, everybody in
the world does not matter, man, woman, child, parent, spouse,
it doesn't matter. They comment on your physical form. Oh
you're so cute. Your face is so round, you're getting
so big. Oh my gosh, you don't look pregnant from
the back. Your belly's hanging low, your belly's hanging high.
(42:46):
It's going to be a boy, it's gonna be a girl.
But you have such long hair, like whatever it is,
it's cool. I could go on for forty five more
minutes if we have time. But everybody comments on every
single inch of your body, or your ankleswool and are
your feet bigger? It's everything. Can I touch your belly?
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Yeah? Can?
Speaker 3 (43:03):
I know? The answer is always know for the rest
of my life. But the thing is, you spend so
much time as an athlete, doing the body fat test,
getting in the bod pod, doing the calipers, taking creatine
looking a certain way. But as a pregnant person you
go through this process where everyone talks about your body,
(43:24):
but it doesn't feel good. And I think the hardest,
hardest part was matching those two images up in my head.
When I watched the like Dating but Behind a Wall show,
I feel like that is like what being an athlete
and pregnant is like. You're both talking to the same person,
but you can't match the two things up. That was
for me the hardest thing, and I think the only
(43:45):
way that I really got better quote quote or felt
like I could line those two things up is when
I it's not even that I lost the weight, it's
that I just started being okay with what Anya two
doad zero looked like, Like I was no longer Anya
the pro hockey player. And that's not to say I'm
(44:06):
not an athlete anymore. I am a monster, like I'm
a beast. I go to the gym hard, and if
I didn't, that's she's abused. I'm abused. I'm swoll for
my little, you know, tiny frame, like my muscle is
a one tenth of yours. But I'm okay with what
Anya two doado looks like. I was comparing myself to
(44:26):
Anya two thousand and nine, and I need to compare
myself to Anya tomorrow, right like I'm only in a
race with me, And I think that that is the
hardest thing is that we as women. You know, you're
told your body snaps back, you lose all this weight
when you're breastfeeding you blah blah blah blah blah. Like
that is where the two things finally made sense, is
(44:48):
when I started saying, like, well, how do I compare
to myself yesterday? Am I better? Or am I worse?
Am I closer to my goals or my further away?
And that is the only thing that as women we
can do, especially from the perspective of I was this
and then I'm that. I mean, or you can be
Alice and Felix and you can break world records pre
baby and break world records post baby. But she is
a beast and a monster and not to be taken
(45:10):
lightly with. But like there are women that can do
literally anything. I am best when I compare myself to
myself yesterday and myself to tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
Preach. I love that. I actually really like that.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
I'm doing the best I can, and I think that
that's for you and for me, even though the challenges
are very very different. If we can wake up in
the morning and look at ourselves post being an athlete
or being a pro athlete, we're still always athletes and
just say I'm better than I was yesterday at anything.
It could be chess, it could be reading a book,
(45:43):
it could be pickleball, it could be whatever. If we're
better than we were yesterday at every single stage of life,
I think that's a win. A win's a win.
Speaker 5 (45:51):
Yeah, and hopefully it makes the world a little better.
Let's just all be nice.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
I think we should all scratch everything we just said.
Let's all just be kind. Well, this is a different
kind of conversation. Thank you, pack I'm excited. I think
we should start getting into some solo episodes where we like.
Speaker 5 (46:07):
Every round table at dinner.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
This is what we talk about. In case anyone was
curious what the packers do at dinnertime. It's illuminating. Most
of the time, we just shovel the food in our
mouths and don't speak to each other. Sometimes it sounds
like this.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
It only sounds like this when you eat alone something
like that.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Either way, thank you everyone for listening, and next Tuesday
you'll catch more of the packs on these packs.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Puck, Hello everybody, This is Madison and Anya kind of
from the future. We wanted to take a minute to
acknowledge some recent news. Between the time that we recorded
this episode and when you're hearing it, there have been
rumblings that Trump administration is planning to defund the nine
(46:49):
eight eight Suicide in Crisis Hotline, in particular resources for
LGBT plus youth.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Madison, I just wanted to give a little space because
this is something that affects us both really personally. It's
something that we've both dealt with, and it's a resource
that you know, now more than ever, we need to
see in the world. So we at these packs, Puck.
Our dms are always open, We're always here. While we
don't give medical advice, we do love and support every
single member of our expanding and ever growing community. So
(47:18):
we see you, we love you, We're here for you.
And while they may try to take away what we
need to survive in this incredibly challenging time, they'll never
quiet us.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
We're here and we've committed from day one to being
honest and being transparent. And the most important part of
why we wanted to get this message out today is
so that, in particular, those who feel unseen and unheard
recognize that that's not true and you matter.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
And that's all we have today.
Speaker 5 (47:49):
Thank you for listening.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
I'm Anya Packer and I'm Madison Packer, and this is
These Packs Puck.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
in Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 4 (48:03):
It's hosted by us Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Meronoff
is our awesome senior producer and story editor. We were
mixed and mastered by Mary do. Our executive producers are
Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.